Woman's Hour - Baroness Hale, Gossip, Women and unions, Becoming a mother when yours is dying, 'Frock Up Friday', Fangirls

Episode Date: September 3, 2022

Baroness Brenda Hale on Roe v Wade and her reaction – as well as if she supports the barrister strikes. She also talks about the differences between the UK and US justice systems, and whether we need to re-evaluate how rape cases are tried in the UK .How much do you gossip? Two women who rely on gossiping to make a living talk about how much it runs the world, and its importance in politics. Women are in some of the lowest-paid jobs in the country – but they also make up the majority of trade union members. General Secretary of UNISON, Christina McAnea, talks about why unions are striking and what could happen next. How does it feel to become a mother when your own mother is dying? Hear one woman’s story of when this happened to her, and expert advice on how to cope with it and look after yourself, as well as everyone else. It’s the joy of dressing up without the stress of going to the event…Frock Up Friday is something that now involves more than 15 thousand people dressing up every Friday night, and feeling good about themselves. The founders tell us about how we can be involved.Fan-girls are often ridiculed or called hysterical – but they can do more than just sing a long to songs. A member of the BTS Army and a Korean Culture expert tell us about how fangirls can prompt activism and change.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lottie Garton

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. In just a moment, we'll hear from Baroness Brenda Hale, the former head of the Supreme Court, with her thoughts on the overturning of Roe v Wade. I was, of course, extremely sorry because I cannot see it as anything other than a retrograde step for millions of women in America. She'll also be sharing her thoughts about barristers going on strike in the UK.

Plus, we've got women who rely on gossip to make a living. And how do you cope with becoming a mother when your own mother is dying? I had to also balance our new baby with my husband and then also the need to be with my mum and worrying, you know, how long do I have with her? And so that was a pressure on me to support my family, but also to support my mum. All that and so much more. Stay with us for the next hour. First, Baroness Brenda Hale was back on Woman's Hour this week. Baroness Hale was President of the Supreme Court until her retirement in 2020.

During her long legal career, she established that domestic violence doesn't have to be physical, leading to greater understanding of coercive control and legal change, to name just one of the many influences she's had. Her most high profile case was the matter of the Queen's prorogation of Parliament on the advice of Boris Johnson in 2019. Emma asked Lady Hale how she felt about the overturning of Roe v. Wade in the US, a ruling which means abortion is now illegal in most states. Well, I think that I was not surprised because there had been a previous

leak of a draft of the judgment, which may or may not have been genuine, but actually turned out to be pretty genuine. So I wasn't very surprised. I was, of course, extremely sorry, because I cannot see it as anything other than a retrograde step for millions of women in America. But it is, of course, a very different constitutional situation. The U.S. Supreme Court has to try and interpret their Bill of Rights, which is now very old. And so some people find it possible to imply rights into it and other people don't. So their role is completely different from the role of the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom, which cannot declare acts of parliament unconstitutional. It simply has to apply the law which parliament has laid down.

Do you think it was right for the judges to do what they did in America? It's not for me to tell the US judges what they should or should not have done, because, as I said, they're interpreting a very old Bill of Rights, which is open to all sorts of interpretations. I think it's very unfortunate to overturn a decision which has been the law for several decades without having an extremely good reason to do so. I think that is unfortunate. It's much better if...

You don't think a reason was given that was good enough? Oh, I think that's up to them. As I say, it's not for me to tell them what they should be doing. Yes. And I mustn't do that. But you do describe it as a retrograde step. And I'm just keen to understand more on that, because, of course, the decision made by those judges is affecting real women's lives. Now we understand one in

three women in the United States no longer have the right to choose to have an abortion. Do you think they've been failed by those judges? Well, I think it's a retrograde step because we are fortunate in this country to have had an abortion law which was passed by Parliament. And that gives it a legitimacy that the interpretation of a constitution by judges perhaps does not have. And so I am much more content with the abortion law this side of the Atlantic. And, well, my own view on abortion is that it's an extremely difficult moral question, what to do, and why to do it and how to do it. But the question is one that should be answered by the woman who is pregnant, and should not be forced upon her by other people, and particularly not by people who can never become pregnant.

Well, so you're talking about men there? Well, yes. Right. So because you talk about being a funder of the situation here, abortions are still considered an illegal act under the 1967 Abortion Act, meaning any woman who ends her pregnancy without getting legal permission from two doctors can face life imprisonment under a Victorian law passed in 1861, which there have been calls for that to change. Would you support those calls?

I think it's quite a complicated question because I'm not necessarily against there being some regulation of the circumstances and methods by which abortion should be performed. And once you have any sort of regulation, you may have to have penalties for not complying with the regulation. But that's not the same as leaving the situations it currently is, which is that the 1861 Act makes abortion unlawful. And then the 67 Abortion Act makes it lawful in certain circumstances. There might be better and more sympathetic ways of doing it. Yes. I mean, just before we move on to something else, going back to something you said about those who cannot be pregnant, deciding the law around this. Do you not think men should be able to be judges on this?

Oh, it's not a question of being judges. And obviously, anything to do with the law, any enfranchised person, any member of parliament can have a view on it. But it does worry me that something that is so vital to women's lives and to their sense of control over their own bodies seems to be being decided more by men than by women. That does trouble me a bit. In the US you're talking about? Well, in the US, definitely.

Yes, I mean, we're looking at the makeup of it. And when the decision was made, it's actually changed again since then. But there were only three women justices who were on the Supreme Court at that point. And one of the women did vote to overturn the ruling, Amy Coney Barrett. So if you're concerned about that, I mean, would you suggest a change that there are just certain things men shouldn't be ruling on? No, no, I did. I've not said that men shouldn't be ruling on it. But I think that when men approach a subject like this, they should bear in mind that they are participating in decisions which affect women so much more profoundly than they affect men much, much more profoundly. And I don't deny the interest that would-be fathers have in the potential child to which they have contributed. I don't deny they have an interest, though I don't think it's an interest

that should be represented in the law. But for the most part, the interest is those of women. Who represents us and how they represent us is on people's minds at the moment because members of the Criminal Bar Association have voted to begin an indefinite uninterrupted strike in England and Wales on Monday in a dispute with the government over pay, working conditions and legal aid funding.

They're asking for a 25% rise in pay for legal aid work, have rejected the 15% offered by the government. Do you support the barrister strike? It's not for me to support or not support a strike. I do understand why it is taking place, because the very, very low level of fees which are paid to barristers for doing publicly funded defence work is one feature of the chronic underfunding of the criminal justice system. It's not just the barristers, It's the courts and the court buildings.

It's very much the number of court sitting days which were artificially restricted before Covid. And of course, the Covid situation made it much worse. And there is also a shortage of judges to hear cases. Why can't you say if you would agree with striking or not? I'm just interested in that. I'm not asking you now for a view on judgment or to make your judges lives harder. I mean, you know, would you would you stand on a picket line with them? I don't think I'd stand on a picket line with them. I don't. But I do, as I say, completely understand why they are doing what they are doing. And again, it's a bit like the abortion question. It's a moral question as well as a personal question, because the effect of withdrawing your services is going to be the

delays in the criminal justice system will become even greater than they already are. And that will be to the disadvantage of the complainants in criminal cases. This came up yesterday. That's one of the complainants in criminal cases. This came up yesterday. That's one of the points. I was about to ask you, but one of our listeners has also just messaged in to hear if you have a comment about there was a story with my colleagues on the Today programme. Only yesterday, my colleague spoke to a father whose daughter was allegedly raped, age 13. They've been waiting already two years for her case to be heard.

I'm not going to ask you about the specifics of the case, but the father has now spoken about a further delay of nine months after a suitable judge could not be found to hear the case. What is your reaction to that? Well, my reaction is one of dismay. And I heard what Vera Baird, the Victims Commissioner, had to say on the Today programme about that and agreed with everything that she said. And it's all part of a much wider problem. And also, I think Wendy Joseph said that she couldn't understand why the problem had arisen because it ought to have been dealt with differently. So these are shocking stories. And that's why it's a complicated question for any barrister as to whether you do or do not withdraw your services. But the strength of feeling is so huge.

I mean, the vote in favour of taking this action was pretty overwhelming. So it just goes to show the condition in which the criminal justice system has fallen. Would you take something to court at the moment, Baroness Hale? You mean in a criminal case, would I complain? Well, yes, because the father in this particular case, but there are other examples, says he now regrets taking the case to court. Delays with COVID, now barrister strikes, also a lack of a judge in this particular case. Would you go to court? Would you recommend going to court at the moment with the way our system seems to be? I would suggest that, yes, you ought to go to court, because if you are the victim of a serious crime,

then it's rather important that the fact that this is a crime is vindicated, that the public know you should not be doing these sorts of things and that perpetrators are prosecuted, convicted and punished. It might just take three years. It might take a very long time. But I sympathise entirely with the people who decide that the aggravation, the difficulties, the stress is just too much and they won't do it. But I do think that people should at least start it and see what happens. Baroness Brenda Hale speaking to Emma there. Now, on Monday's Woman's Hour this week, it was a special programme all about, and I feel I have to come closer to the microphone to say this, gossip. The good, the bad and the ugly. Now, imagine if the finding and reporting of gossip is your profession.

Yes, that's right. You actually get paid for it. Well, journalist and author Marie Leconte was a diarist for the Evening Standard. She says gossip is a key part of politics and keeps Westminster running. And Camilla Wright is the founder of Pop Bitch, the legendary email newsletter with the secrets of celebrity, music, media and politics sent straight to your inbox for over 20 years.

They both joined Emma, and she started by talking to Marie about the gossip culture in politics. I think a lot of men spend a lot of their time gossiping, it's just that they don't call it that. And I found that really interesting, so I wrote a book about the role of gossip in British politics and reached out to many MPs, all like male and female.

The men overwhelmingly were completely happy to chat, do it on the record, entirely fine, you know, just having a nice chat. And nearly every single female MP I reached out to said, fine, we can talk, but I do not want my name anywhere near this, which I found fascinating, because that means that I think men, again, consider gossip as, you know, maybe a thing they can talk about from a slight distance, I suppose, whereas the women clearly were worried that if they talked to even one, you know, journalist about gossip, they would be instantly marked as someone who gossips, i.e. not a person to trust or not a person to take seriously.

And yet it does have a key role in politics, not just the reporting of it, you would say. Oh, it absolutely does. Because I think, you know, fundamentally, a lot of the time gossip is about the content of someone's character, how they behave in private, how they behave in their personal life. Can they be trusted again? You know, what do they really believe, etc, etc. And in politics in general, but I think British politics specifically, that massively matters, because British politics is a place where a lot of what happens is entirely informal. And actually, what matters is not just where you stand politically on x or y issue, but on who you know, who likes you, who doesn't like you, you know, again, whether you're someone who can do a job and do it quietly, whether you're someone who would stab someone who likes you, who doesn't like you. Again, whether you're someone who can do a job and do it quietly, whether you're someone who would stab someone in the back,

someone who's got maybe a personal life that's a bit too busy and so on. So as a result, it is actually very important for people who work in politics to be that MPs, journalists, special advisors, even civil servants, they kind of need to be aware again, I think, of that personal layer in people's lives. Do you think it stops you from getting on if you don't do it? I think you can certainly give it a good shot, but it's probably harder. You probably have to be considerably better at your job if you decide to not engage, I think, in gossip at all. When you were a diarist, and I know you didn't just cover politics in that field,

you covered anyone who was at the party or anyone who was out wherever you were. Do people walk away from you in that role oh very often many people so George Osborne walked away from me mid-sentence Alistair Campbell walked away from me mid-sentence did they know who you are oh no so it usually goes hi and they're like oh hello and I'm like Marie from the evening standard and so it depends some of them walked away at that point when I said the word diary and there was always quite a fun one because occasionally in their defence, I would ask quite cheeky questions. Osborne especially, I will not repeat the question, but I sort of got halfway through and you could tell in his eyes that he saw where I was going and he just turned around and left. Is it unrepeatable? Yes.

Oh, right. I love a question. I love an unrepeatable one. Camilla, hello. Welcome to the programme. Hi. It's lovely to have you. I get sent still snippets most weeks of Pop Bitch. I do need to subscribe because people say, have you seen this, Emma? You need to know this. And it's got this lovely element to it actually being sent it that's quite old school.

And I wonder for you how you feel Pop Bitch has aged and changed as gossip has changed or has it not changed? I think the world has changed considerably in the last 20 years. When we started PopBitch, the internet really was just starting and we were trying to find a way of sending information to friends and other journalists, other PRs in the creative industries. Things that you weren't allowed into interviews, that when you'd met people or you'd interviewed them, but those were the things that everybody really wanted to talk about. And sort of email was a way of doing this. Back then, it felt like the Wild West, you could get away with anything. But I think over the last 20 years,

the world has changed. Social media has very much changed it. And I think everybody now is much more circumspect, much more careful about what they say and to whom, because what could have been a fun comment about a pop star or even somebody who worked in politics or a newspaper 20 years ago could be career ending now. So I think context is everything in gossip. I mean, your training is as a journalist. Do you try and substantiate everything that comes in? I know there are efforts when it's a bigger story to do that. What level of care and checks goes in? I know there are efforts when it's a bigger story to do that. What level of care and checks goes in? Because now everyone has a microphone, as it were. They've got an account, they can write whatever. Yeah, a lot of things do come in anonymously and that you have to be pretty

careful about. But a lot of things come in to us with the name of the person attacked. So you can be pretty sure if it's a plausible source. And if it's not, you can try and find out from somebody else if they think this sounds like this is true or they might have heard the same. You can get it wrong, but we don't tend to print anything that doesn't seem to have legs. Do you think that what you do is important? I think gossip generally, but I mean,

where we've tried to sit with pop, which is sitting in the gap between the public face of somebody who puts himself in the public eye and the private reality. And I think people want to know the behind the scenes. Is X really like X? Is it just fake? And I guess popular culture in some ways does do a valuable service. I mean, if we look at what's happened in the last 20 years in both America and Britain, we've had a president and a prime minister who essentially have come from the gossip columns. Donald Trump made his name through page six gossip columns and then being a TV presenter.

Boris Johnson was really a TV presenter. So I think if you don't take seriously people in celebrity culture, things can happen. Or you get a completely different leader than you might have been expecting 10 years ago or even 10 minutes ago. Exactly. So for you, Maria, I was interested when you work in gossip, how it changes you personally as well. Has it, I mean, are you naturally a gossiper?

Oh, yes. No, I'm such a massive gossip. So I think the two main components, I think, of a real professional gossip, as was mentioned earlier, was I think endless curiosity, which I definitely have. And, you know, is also why I went into journalism. But also, I would say a good memory. And I would say that's really my strength as a person is that if someone tells me a juicy bit of information, I will literally never forget about it. I wish I could say, oh, yeah, I wish I could say working in gossip in a professional manner, changed my attitude to it personally, and I stopped, maybe I grew up a bit, but actually, that would be a complete lie. I still really, really enjoy gossiping. Have you got a favourite story from when you were a diarist?

I think my favourite one, which is very random, was when Chris Grayling was at the Ministry of Justice. I got a tip that before becoming an MP, he was working at a television company, the same one that made Wizardora, which I'm told was a famous TV show before I moved to Britain. And Chris Grayling got increasingly annoyed because Wizardora was kind of the star of the company, whereas his bit was the very unglamorous bit that made all the money. Anyway, eventually, people one day went to the studio to record more episodes of Wizardora and found that Hangul, one of the puppets, had been kidnapped and there was a ransom letter written in cut up newspaper letters. And when they saw that and they thought, OK, one of the puppets, had been kidnapped and there was a ransom letter written in cut-up newspaper letters. And they saw that and they thought, OK, that's got to be Chris.

And so marched onto his office and apparently Chris resentfully gave the puppet back. And ever since I learned this, I had to call, obviously because we're a newspaper, I had to call the special advisor, the Ministry of Justice, to say, Hi, I've got a bit of a weird one for you today. She said, OK, let me talk to him and come back to you in a few hours. And she called back and she said, which I absolutely love, so Chris doesn't actually remember this happening, but it sounds like something he could have done,

so, you know, fine to run with it, which just baffled me so much. How many puppets can you kidnap for you to not remember that one specific kidnapping? Especially as the minister in such a department as justice. Exactly. The kidnap of a puppet. A very good one. Camilla, I'm sure you have many to pick from.

Is there something that comes to mind if you think of a story that either maybe you couldn't quite believe or something that crossed your desk? This is quite an old one, but I think it's probably my favourite when it comes to thinking about why people like gossip and probably why the subject matter of pop, which is, has sustained all this time. There was a story at a photo shoot Kate Moss was at, and it was in a derelict house in East London. She was delightful on the shoot and at some break said to the crew, can you, could you show me where the toilet is? I really need to go to the toilet. So they said, yeah, just over there in the corner. But just to warn you, Kate, it's got no door. So she turned around to them and said, well, how the hell do I get in then?

And it's just one of those things that just makes me always think that it's the perfect story about how you think about models and celebrities and gives you the opportunity to gossip and laugh without feeling bad about yourself. I think where there isn't necessarily a victim, if you like, of the gossip, and it's also quite funny, is hopefully where your job probably leads to a lot of entertainment for people and also, as you say, makes you smile. Emma having a good old gossip there on Monday's Woman's Hour. Now, did you know? Oh, no, I can't tell you. Don't you just hate it when someone does that? Now, we all know that women are in some of the lowest paid jobs in the UK, but they actually

make up the majority of trade union members. Emma was joined by Christina McAnee, General Secretary of the UK's largest union, Unison. Unison, along with Unite and other unions, are tabling motions to be debated at next month's Trade Union Congress on Coordinated Strike Action. Emma asked Christina what this would mean. It's something we do regularly. This isn't just a one-off, but it's obviously got more impetus this time round. And one of the key things we'll be looking to do is,

you know, we're already planning a ballot for our NHS workers. We're working with the Royal College of Nursing on this. We'll be talking to them, but we'll also be talking to Unite, GMB, and I think there's something like 14 unions involved in the NHS. So it's more about coordinating across sectors. You know, we're one of the big education unions as well. We don't have teachers, but we have the teaching assistants, special needs assistants, the admin staff.

We'll be working with teaching unions to try and make sure that if we end up having a ballot of our members in those areas, that we will coordinate if there's time limits, times around when we take strike action. That's what we'd be looking for. I was looking back to when you and I last spoke, and I believe it was not long after you were elected at the start of last year and you talked about your frustration to me and

to our listeners of union leaders who for instance threatened strikes, made threats but then didn't follow up on it. You didn't name names even though I asked you to at the time but I think you would probably agree that something seems to have changed and And I wonder for you what it is. What's changed is the cost of living crisis and that people are actually genuinely on their knees at the moment. We have our own charity in unison called Dare for You. And we're getting unprecedented calls for support and help from our own charity, never mind what's happening outside. And when we survey our members the kind of feedback that we get is astonishing and you know it's not what everyone would think it's you

know the low-paid workers it's the cleaners the catering staff we're getting social workers and nurses coming back to us now saying I don't think we will I don't see how I can feed my family and keep my pay my energy bills over the winter And they're tearing their hair out because they really don't know what to do. But these are people who love their job and people who do an essential job. So when they're talking about the only option might be to look at strike action, you're talking about people who know that the impact of them coming out and strike is incredibly serious. They don't just inconvenience people they they have a massive impact on people's lives if you're a if you're a nurse in a in a

paediatric ward if you're a if you're a care worker in a in a home for people with severe learning disabilities you know the impact of walking out of that job and what it will have in there do you think just on on that point, if I may, because you gave that example, and I know you represent lots of different jobs, do you think there are certain workers who shouldn't be able to go on strike because of the nature of their work? No, I actually don't. And I think it's because most trade unions, well, even legally, we have to ensure that there is an element of minimum supply,

minimum cover, life and limb cover it's called in certain sectors. So you know we might have a strike in the ambulance sector for example but not every single ambulance worker would be out on strike at the same time. There would always be an element of minimum cover. I thought it was quite interesting Liz Truss talks about bringing in legislation to have to precisely have minimum staffing levels. All I can say to her is bring it on, Liz, because we've been calling for minimum staffing levels in some of these sectors for years. But you can't just have minimum staffing levels

when people are on strike. You have to have them all year round. On that point, the government has talked about putting in place measures to stop disruption. On July 21st, this is about a law change to allow businesses to hire agency workers to minimise disruption when strikes happen. A day later, you wrote threatening legal action, giving the business secretary, Kwasi Kwarteng, tipped if Liz Truss is the Prime Minister to be

the next Chancellor, 14 days to respond. What is the latest on that? So we have issued pre-action letters now. And we are looking very seriously at taking, so we will be taking a judicial review on this. We've already committed to it. Unless we get the kind of commitments that we expect from the government, we'll be doing that. And the TUC is also looking at taking some kind of judicial review on this, but we've started the proceedings now. Yes, a statement from the government says on that so you've started the legal proceedings we know the pressures of facing people with rising costs which is why we've continually taken action to help help households by phasing in 37 billion

pounds worth of support and by increasing the national living wage this year the largest rise ever to help millions of families across the country the business secretary makes no apology for taking action so that essential services are run as effectively as possible, ensuring the British public do not have to pay the price for what they say is disproportionate strike action. You're not going to agree with that description of it based on what you've already said this morning to me and to all of us.

I have to say we are having a lot of messages while we're talking with people in agreement with what you have said, with people recognising it from their own lives, with people supporting it, planning on going on strike. But there are a few other messages here, just because while you're actually on the line, I think it's important to put to you, if I may, a message here which says, I work in the higher education sector. And while I have a lot of sympathy for lower to middle income workers, significant pay increases in the public sector will need to be funded by the government. Public sector organisations like the NHS and the education

sector cannot afford the increase being asked for by the unions without additional funding. Sarah, who's listening in Devon, what would you say to her? I completely agree. And what we're calling for is additional money to be put in to those essential public services. And I would include the higher education sector in that, although it's a bit of a question that the government's trying to make it seem as if it's more a private sector endeavour at this point in time.

But I totally agree. And we're calling on the government to put money in. And we're actually producing our own... But where's that money coming from? We've come we're calling on the government to put money in. And we're actually producing our own, you know, we've come up with suggestions to the government about how you could actually raise that money. Well, where is it going to come from? So there's a number of things you could do. So we are suggesting put 1% on income tax.

So instead of cutting tax, actually increase the high, particularly the higher rate of income tax, put 1% on that. Increase the 1% increase. That's a pointless suggestion suggestion especially with the front runner right now is it not the prime minister well there's probably not much i could say that where i would agree with liz trust but it doesn't mean i can't make the case to the public well you can make the case to the public but it's it's pointless which would lead me to i was looking back at some of the remarks we had when you last came on which was some people saying they had left your union because, yes, you're asking the right questions, but you're not that effective. You've only got to look at where pay is at, for instance, for nurses, some of whom you represent.

Yeah, we do. What's our answer to that is we're going to have to take strike action. So we are, we will be balloting in the NHS on this. We're going to be balloting our members. We have the toughest trade union legislation in Europe and all we get from this government is an attempt to make it even tougher and almost take away people's right to take strike action. And this is meant to be a democratic country. We're meant to have a government that sees itself as a democratic government and yet they're still threatening to take away people's right to

strike. This is the government we have at the moment. Kirsten of course wants to be in government. How you get him into government and whether you even want him there of course you know the Labour movement grew out of the trade union movement is also what I'm trying to get your view on as the leader of the largest union in this country, because Sharon Graham, leader of Unite, which is Labour's biggest union financial backer, is not mincing her words. She says, you know, Parliament's been captured by business and Labour's too scared to say that business is wrong. Do you agree with her? I think Sharon's entitled to say what she likes. I'm not going to comment on what Sharon says or indeed any other trade union leader says about the Labour Party. We all have our own views. We all have our own content.

May I ask for your view? My main concern is I would like to see a Labour government. We're a trade union that's affiliated to the Labour Party. I'll do and my union will do what we can to get a Labour government. But we want a Labour government that supports working people. And again, we will do everything we can at the Labour Party conference and in the contacts and influence that we have with the Labour Party to make that happen. And with regard to the role women have within unions, of course, you know, some saying there's been a change now, the majority of members are female. And yet,

you know, some would also argue that there's a more militant aspect, perhaps, to some of the more male-dominated industries, whether we're talking about refuse workers, dockers at Felixstowe, postal workers with the train strikes. What do you say to that, that perhaps there's more action in the male-dominated parts of it, if I could put it like that, the concern about that? I don't know why it's a concern. I we're certainly looking to ballot so we've been balloting our members who work in local government in Scotland and we're taking strike action we're involved in the action that's taking place in Scotland. We as a union have probably fewer members working in the refuse we do have them but not as many as perhaps Unite or GMB but But what our plan is next week is we are planning to bring out

our school support staff members, which will close schools. So it's not that they're not prepared to do it. It's perhaps that they do jobs where it's not necessarily as visible. There's no rubbish in the streets when you close the schools. It has a massive impact on people's lives. I'm not for a minute suggesting it doesn't. Well, it has a disproportionately large impact, you could argue, on women's lives,

who then have to deal with where the children are. We're not deliberately targeting women, but we are having to take most of our members' work in sectors like care, like NHS, in local government, providing services. And, you know, women do rely more on public services probably than men do. And therefore, if we bring our members out on strike, it may well have that kind of impact. Emma speaking to Christina McAnee,

the General Secretary of the UK's largest union, Unison. Now, Woman's Hour wouldn't be Woman's Hour if we didn't hear from you. And Tristan emailed in to say, no support from me. So many of us can't get pay rises. We have small businesses that are struggling. We can't just give ourselves pay rises. It's ludicrous that public sector workers think they can just demand more, but are not offering any more in terms of productivity.

And Tina Grace said on Twitter, unions are the heart and soul of a democracy. To strike is a serious choice and workers don't take it lightly. The British public must support hardworking people whose unions stand with them to fight for a serious choice and workers don't take it lightly. The British public must support hardworking people whose unions stand with them to fight for a decent wage, for a decent quality of life. And if you'd like to comment on any of the stories you've heard in the programme during the week or today, or indeed you'd like to suggest a story for future programmes,

then do get in touch with us. You can email us via the website. Still to come on the programme, the two friends who've started a movement to lift our spirits every single Friday, and the fangirls with the power to do more than just sing along to a song. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10am during the week, all you have to do is subscribe to the daily podcast for free via the Woman's Hour website. Now, one of you, our listeners, Hannah, got in touch asking us to talk about being motherless when you're about

to become a mother yourself. In 2017, her mum was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer when Hannah was 24 weeks pregnant with her first child. She died when her grandchild turned one. Well, consultant perinatal psychologist Julianne Boutaleb joined Emma alongside Hannah, who told us her story. I think my mum would say before she was diagnosed, when you're pregnant, you live from one scan to the next, the 12-week scan, the 20-week scan. And when you're faced with potentially dealing with the death or the uncertainty around your mum's health, you're not only living for one scan to the next for your baby, but you're living from one scan to the next for your mum. And you kind of like accept a, you get information.

So we were told mum had pancreatic cancer and it's this. And then you can have an operation. So you're kind of like, right, I've got this information. We're doing this. cancer and it's this and then you can have an operation so you're kind of like right I've got this information we're doing this and then it's something else and it's the uncertainty alongside also being pregnant and then having a baby um seeing the change in my mum mum was a very strong woman feminist loved women's hour by the way she I hope she can see that i'm doing this um and um you know the change in how the cancer affected how she was um she became more anxious um didn't want to leave the home as much and so it was very difficult because i almost the role changed i became slightly like my mom's parent in a way because i had to hold her and and also I was becoming a mum myself um and

when you do become a mum if you if you do if you can if you want to you often then reflect on parenting and and your relationship anyway so this must have been I suppose even more intense in some ways yeah it was um it was intense yeah I'm just I'm sorry I'm thinking of um a precious moment because I think in these situations you have to have gratitude. And if there's any women out there listening to this, you have to take each day as it comes. But, you know, I always look through my photos

and, you know, when my daughter Ella was born and my mum coming into hospital and holding her, it's so precious. We had to kind of be very strategic about um my birth I think that's some of the things I wanted to share with the listeners as well that I didn't feel like I had the chance like other women to think oh why don't I do hypnobirthing or why don't I do this I was thinking hang on my mum's in treatment how can I prepare myself to make sure my mum's well enough? So I decided I'd have

an elective C-section. And it's, you know, it was, I felt when I, you know, I was in NCT, I was surrounded by all these women talking about all these, you know, you know, kind of like hypnobirthing and, you know, labour. And I just thought all those opportunities for me weren't there. It can make you feel a little bit resentful, I guess. And how was it when your daughter was born? And I know you had that year together, that time together, because you again had to think differently, I suppose, about responsibilities. It was really hard.

It was, you know what, I feel, like I said, I need to be very grateful that my mum was there. She could see my daughter being born. She saw her first year um but you know it was hard because I you know she like I said it there were times she wouldn't be able to leave the house she got very self-conscious when she lost her hair so we had to build her up a lot there were moments that we were able to go out for a coffee and walk to the playground um my daughter Ella but it was difficult seeing other women with their mums and the freedom that they had that they could just leave the house and go for a coffee and go for a walk in the park and actually my mum had gone off coffee and tea

because of chemo and you know I think probably a little bit agoraphobic as well so you were kind of balancing a lot of a lot of things and you know um I had to also balance you know it's our new baby with my husband Mark who was just fantastic but I had to just um kind of balance that and then also the need to be with my mum and worrying you know how long do I have with her and so that was a pressure on me to to support my family but also to support my mum if that makes sense. Julianne, good morning. Let me bring you in at this point. What do you want to say, having heard the issues that Hannah's raised? Good morning, and thank you very much for having me.

Hannah, you're so brave for coming on this morning, and it's already a huge tribute to your mum that you're actually raising this issue. I think the reality is that we are very queasy about death and dying through the perinatal period. So that's sort of trying to conceive all the way, you know, through to actually having babies. We've only just recently started to push back on, you know, talking about miscarriage, pregnancy loss. And of course, this isn't the sort of thing that you're going to say when you're doing the introductory round at your maternity yoga, you know, session. And I think that often leads women feeling very isolated at a time when obviously what really can happen for many of us is that we start to orientate ourselves towards our mothers.

We may be really curious. How did they fall pregnant? How easy was it for them to breastfeed? How easy was it for them, you know, to have five children like my mother, for example? And just at that moment when you are curious and needing support and needing the holding, as Hannah said just then, you have that piece of sort of emotional Jenga sort of pulled away from you. And I think that can leave people feeling very disorientated. I think Hannah describes very well this sort of tug of sort of being torn in two between having to be there containing and holding her mother and also then trying to think about her child. And I think often what happens is women talk to me about a numbness that can descend, that they sort of just have a feeling of just going through the motions, getting through the pregnancy, living scan to scan.

And it may only be much, much later that they're able to feel the grief, actually. And any advice? Absolutely. I think one of the things I want to say to people because is recognise what's happening. And that might seem very glib but i think often women will come you know they'll go to midwives or they'll go to friends i don't know what's happening with me i'm feeling really unsafe i'm you know i'm no longer sure about whether or not i want to be a mom or what sort of mom i want to be and i think what's really important is to recognize you're grieving and sometimes we grieve in advance and we grieve in

advance and exactly the way Hannah says of all those moments that we thought we were going to have that you know picking a buggy together and having your mum at the christening or dedication ceremony the other advice I would say is that you really need others to mother you at risk of sounding like a social media meme but that is ultimately what we need we need others to sort of mother us are there others that you can lean on um i notice hannah doesn't mention any siblings but are there other siblings perhaps that can take on some of the caring role is there somebody who can attend appointments with you um is it that you need to look for specific tailored response so for, for example, the Good

Grief Project is excellent. They have sort of small groups of people who can meet together online and talk about what they're going through. Or is it a matter of trying to memorialise things with your mother? There was a particular woman I worked with whose mother was an avid knitter, and they weren't able to talk quite understandably about what was happening because, of course, this is, you know, her mother's grief as well. But what they were able to do was that her mother, in her last few months of being with her, was able to teach her how to knit. And what they beautifully created was sort of a christening rug

that her little girl wore when she was christened. So it's ways of holding on to those moments whilst you know your mum is still here julian thank you very much for that and for for your advice is there anything you wanted to add hannah i mean and you know i'm sure our listeners would want to know how you're doing now um i must say that um my sister scarlet and i um were both in the unique position of losing our mum and i couldn't have got through it without her and i do also agree about finding, I know it's not substitutes, but people who look after you and support you.

And I just want to say that to the listeners that, you know, there are people that are going through this and it is important to access support and utilise all the support you have in your life and take each day as it comes. And I don't want to sound naff, but I do think living with gratitude is really important. And I did that when my mum was alive, and I do that now.

Very moving interview. Hannah speaking along with Julianne Bautileb with Emma there. And lots of you got in touch to share your own experiences of this. Here's an email from Carol. She says, so appreciative of this item. Never thought of this, but my mum was diagnosed with motor neuron disease as I discovered I was pregnant with my second child. Just realised the massive impact. Mum died when baby was three months and her sister was three. I was so bad psychologically and sick during my pregnancy, my partner left me.

The baby was diagnosed as deaf, then autistic, at age five. I've never talked about it at all. Maybe I should do that now. And she says thanks. Remember, if you'd like to get in touch with us, then you can email us via our website, or you can contact us via social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour, and we always appreciate your input. Now, at the start of lockdown in spring 2020, two friends living in Hastings set up a Facebook group for friends to experience the excitement of dressing up on a Friday and getting ready to go out when everybody was forced to stay at home. Why? Because why not? The Frock Up Friday movement was born and within three weeks,

the group had 10,000 members worldwide and now two years later they number 15,000 and they're growing all the time. I spoke to the two women who founded the group, Beverly Francis and Susie Sims. Beverly runs a hat business and she started by telling me the unusual way it started off. I was walking past a skip in Soho and I did have a pencil skirt on at that time and this skip was absolutely full of hat blocks and I'd actually learned to be a milliner but hadn't got any hat blocks so I just piled them all into a taxi and the taxi driver looked at me very strangely because some hat blocks look a little bit like toilet seats I think he thought what the heck is she doing?

And I literally did climb right in the skip to just get all of the hat blocks out. And that's actually how I started that business. So fashion and flamboyance is kind of in you, Bev. And Susie, it was your auntie. You grew up in Northumberland and your auntie introduced you to Elvis. And this sparked your love of the quiff you look great I'm wearing one right now to the other thing yeah well it's inspired us to work to to like 50s clothes and the like but I'm not that I've not been that much in fashion really I just

really I just really love Beth and I love being into I love being individual, we could put it. If my family's listening, they might say that I always have dressed a bit nuts, but I'm nowhere near Bev's range. But we did meet because I set my house on fire. So I got more into clothes when I lived with Bev for two years. And I get to style it out on stage in things that you wouldn't normally be able to. You know, I can feel the joy just chatting to the two of you, just looking at you both.

And so this started in lockdown where you decided to dress up every Friday. You set up a Facebook group just for your friends and then it grew and grew and grew. And now you've published this delightful book of photographs of members of the public who decided to join you. And it is delightful because you have the stories of people of the public who decided to join you and it is delightful because you have the stories of people within the book tell us about some of the standout stories for you the

ones that really warm your heart there there are so many stories there's joyful stories and there's really quite um sad stories but um i think the ones that stand out are the people who missed their graduation there was a lot of people who missed their graduation. There was the nurses who were struggling on at work and then dressing up. And we also had people who were struggling with cancer. One of the stories that stands out is one of our members actually found out during COVID lockdown that she was clear of cancer and she couldn't celebrate with anyone so she put a ball gown on rang the bell and 14,000 people got behind her and said congratulations you know and supported her and she says it was like having an army of 14,000 people

behind her yeah so that was that was fantastic on the flip side of that we did have someone who died um of cancer but she was an amazing person called deborah and every day she would post a picture herself dressed up and she loved sparkly things and she would always sort of say she was fighting cancer everyone got behind her was supportive but suddenly she lost her fight. But she requested for her funeral that all the frockers dressed up in sparkles and they could join her funeral. And 3,000 of the frockers actually joined the funeral online. And we all dressed up in sparkles. It was an amazing day.

It was. We just kept getting so many heartbreaking and lovely stories. It is an incredibly emotional book. I didn't know what to expect. And then as I was flicking through it yesterday, I mean, it's very joyful. The stories and the testimonies and the things that people have written are very emotional. But you've also cataloged a time that we lived through. And we've almost forgotten about it in a way, or we've kind of put it to the back of our minds. And here it was, you know, we lived through this traumatic, quite difficult event, but you have catalogued it

in the most beautiful way. When you think about what you've done, you know, and what you've achieved, what, you know, it just started as a small idea about something to do just to cheer yourselves up and your mates. What do you think about it now? I think we're still in shock actually because even when we made a book we couldn't believe we'd made a book because that was during lockdown and

we had no money and our community got behind us and helped us finance it and uh we pre-sold copies um to people so they bought a book that didn't exist so we could go to print and i think we're still quite in shock about the fact that we've made this beautiful book and it is a beautiful book and the stories do tell everyone about that time there's every kind of person in there and the selfie pictures as well which is very much of our time people taking selfies I have to say your community is going to grow because the Woman's Hour community are sending me pictures of themselves looking absolutely fabulous. Which is lovely, but I couldn't find your WhatsApp number.

03700. Oh, if I was more professional, I'd know it off the top of my head, but I don't. I'll come back to it. It's quite lovely though, because since the book and up until the festival, you know, everyone's been in the group or they're still joining. People are still joining fresh on a daily basis, but everyone kind of knows each other a bit and they know what trials people have gone through. And it's not just about the posting of the picture. When a picture goes up, it's kind of got a bit of a story added to it, like the book has. And then everyone will flood in with messages of i love your shoes

or how is it how is your back or whatever the case might be and they're flooded with compassion it's it was first of all about giving yourself self-compassion and getting out of your pajamas and making yourself feel great and shaving your legs blah blah blah and but but we didn't tell anyone to do it it just happened where they comment on each other's pictures and miss each other well and ask how each other are doing and it's a massive community of mental health support and it's really insane when you meet each other face-to-face because you feel like you really know these people

but you've never really seen them before. Beverly and Susie, the founders of Frock Up Friday. And if you missed it, don't despair. Let it roll into Saturday. Go put a frock on. Now, you may remember a few weeks ago on Woman's Hour, we began to look at so-called fangirls, exploring the subculture of women who usually come together around a band

that's often been ridiculed. Well, this week, Emma took a look at fangirls and their activism. Professor Jae Song is Associate Professor in Korean Studies at the University of Melbourne, and Heta Bat is a junior doctor from London. They spoke to Emma about one of the most active fandoms out there right now, that of Korean pop band BTS, often referred to as the BTS Army. Professor Song told Emma what the BTS Army are all about.

The Army stands for Adorable Representative MC for Youth, unlike its acronym. So, I mean, you can imagine the 41 million followers on Twitter. So it's actually more than the Australian population and 70.5 million subscribers on their YouTube TV, Bangtan TV. So that's actually more than the UK population. So they're mostly young women in their teens or early 20s, but also including someone like myself, the older generation. And because they're mostly young, they're very sensitive to this youth issue, including mental health, climate change, women and the sexual

minority, LGBTQI+. But they're also mostly ethnic Asian. And because of their ethnic minority status, they're also very sensitive to racism, global inequality, the West-South problem, and very high empathy for the underdog and underprivileged people. And also what's really, really interesting and fascinating is that because they're educated middle class,

they have a purchasing power so whenever there's a new album release they buy and they actually click those you know billboard chart and the radio spin the streaming views to increase sales so it's actually the army who make the bts the best boy band not the bts i mean they they're really really talented people but actually it's the fan group, the fangirls, they're making the BTS the best boy band in the world. I want to hear a few more details about some of the things that they've done away from buying the albums as well,

which has mobilised them around those issues. But Heta, how did you get into them? So my best friend from university was actually the one who introduced me to them. And I think she sent me a couple of their videos and some of their their songs and to be honest it was one of those things where once I got into it and once I'd listened obviously the music was very very good and that is what got me into it initially but watching a lot of their other content as well especially at a time like during the Covid pandemic was just like such a a kind of, you know, just like an online

community and something I could sort of go back to after a long day at work. It was just it was entertaining. And I think once I started watching, it was just kind of like a deep dive basically into all of that stuff. You mentioned the music. I think it would be remiss not to play a tiny blast. This is Not Today by BTS. Heta, I can already see you moving a little bit. You can't stop yourself. You went to Vegas to see them, is that right? Yeah, so they announced, they did four shows in Vegas in April of this year.

And so, as I said, it was my best friends from university and myself and when they announced them we were like you know if we can get tickets and if we can go this would be such a cool experience to be able to see them live um and yeah I just feel really lucky that we were able to do that it was it was fantastic and we met so many people from so many different countries around the world whilst we were there. So, you know, not just from elsewhere in the States, but people had travelled from everywhere to be there. This idea of social activism in this group, though, and that idea, have you tapped into that? Or are you just looking as a junior doctor, for instance, during the pandemic for some escapism?

Well, I think that was obviously a part of it. And that's what got me into it initially. But, you you know their music obviously resonates with so many people because the topics they talk about um but in terms of the activism I just think with with people uh you know a group who has a following the size that they do they obviously have a platform they have a voice that people are listening to um and I just think it's so admirable really that they choose to be socially conscious and, you know, lend that voice to relevant issues for the youth today. For example, like, you know, they've spoken at the UN about sustainable development goals. And so I think that's really important. And I feel like

that was something which I think really sets them apart. And that side of them was something which I was like, I, you know, really admire this about them. So yeah. Jay, let me bring you back in at this point. Is it then driven by what the band chooses to talk about that then the followers and the army, as it's called, go in after? What sort of issues are we talking about? Or is it driven by the army themselves independently? Yeah, for example, I mean, they organise so many campaigns online and offline.

One of the examples is the army. They did a prank on the Trump campaign rally in Tulsa in 2020. They actually register and buy lots of free tickets. Actually, not buy, they register for free tickets, but they didn't show up. So Trump had to deliver a speech in an empty stadium, basically. And also they do organize solidarity protests against police brutality. So the hashtag Black Lives Matter. They also, the fandoms, they organize charity projects. And there are hundreds and hundreds of charity projects, raise funds for underprivileged people, basically just all over the world. And they also use a lot of different strategy online trolls and they're hijacking right-wing hashtags

and highly coordinated response online. This is what makes them so special. They use content spamming. I was going to say, is that driven by BTS though? Or how do people decide which politician and where to do what? So it comes sometimes just spontaneously and they're responding to, like Heta said, like the COVID response is a racism

or, you know, it's not particularly driven by the BTS, the boy band, but it's actually driven and generated by the ongoing social and global issues around the world. And what about in South Korea? Is it a political movement there? Is it a force there or do they stay away from politics in South Korea? the kind of spoon that you're born with. So they're talking about the deeply embedded social and economic inequality and the things that this generation give up in Korea,

a highly competitive society. So things that they give up, like including romance, dating, marriage, childbirth, a stable job and house, the list goes on. So these are some of the things that I teach for my class, Contempor contemporary Korea. And I didn't start as a BTS fan, but I started growing my interest in this boy band because they're talking about this socio-economic and political issues and the global inequality and sustainability, like Heta said. Professor Jae Song and Heta Batt speaking to Emma there about the BTS army. That's it from me. Thank you so much for listening.

I'm off to put a frock on. Don't forget to join Emma from Monday, two minutes past ten. Set the alarm. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.