Woman's Hour - Baroness Margaret Hodge, Racism in women's football, Author Georgina Moore

Episode Date: July 22, 2025

Baroness Margaret Hodge tells Nuala McGovern why she thinks routine mammograms should be extended to women over 70. The former Labour MP was diagnosed with breast cancer at the age of 80. She requested a mammogram after realising she hadn’t been invited to have one in nearly a decade. Routine screening is currently only available in the UK for women aged 50-70. As England's Lionesses prepare for their Euro 2025 semi-final with Italy tonight, their efforts have been overshadowed by the racial abuse suffered by defender Jess Carter. The team's decided not to take the knee against racism in tonight's game, with coach Sarina Wiegman saying her players feel the gesture isn't 'good enough.' Now the head of Sport England, Chris Boardman, has written to Ofcom to express "deep concern" over the abuse directed at England's women's football team on social media. He joins Nuala, along with former Lioness and now pundit Lianne Sanderson. Campaigners in Northern Ireland want the way Victim Personal Statements are dealt with in courts there to change. At the moment people do not have the automatic right to read their own statements as part of the judicial process. Nuala talks to Commissioner Designate for Victims of Crime Northern Ireland, Geraldine Hanna, and campaigner Julieanne Boyle, who didn’t get the opportunity to address the court during her case and wants to see a change for other victims. Georgina Moore’s second novel River of Stars is set in a floating community on the Thames. A romance and family saga spanning three generations of women, it was inspired by her own move from self-confessed ‘ageing party girl’ to houseboat mum. Georgina joins Nuala in the Woman’s Hour studio to talk about island life and writing on the water.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Sarah Jane Griffiths

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. deal ratings and price history. So you know a great deal when you see one. That's cargurus.ca. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. It is indeed. Good morning. Well, the head of Sport England has warned Ofcom that toxic abuse threatens female sport. England's footballer Jess Carter has spoken of the abuse she endured throughout the UEFA European Women's Championship. And with the Lionesses kicking off in just 10 hours time against Italy, we're going to speak to the chair of Sport England, Chris Boardman and also former Lioness Leanne Sanderson. Baroness Margaret Hodge will be with us in studio as she pushes for routine

mammograms for women over 70, forgive me, following a breast cancer diagnosis. She will also talk to us about how that came about with her personal story. We have the author Georgina Moore today. She is a new book, River of Stars. It's set on water and with a second chance romance. Now I know Georgina loves a second chance romance and we'll discuss why. But what about you? Do you have a story to share about reconnecting with a past love? How did that work out? Or perhaps it's still working out.

You can text the programme, the number is 84844 on social media we're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or voice note that number is 03700 100 444. Plus Northern Ireland wants to change the way that victims personal statements are managed in their courts. We're going to hear from one woman on why it matters oh so much. Now, England's Lioness is preparing right now for the Euros 2025 semi-final with Italy tonight. As I mentioned, the team have decided not to take the knee against racism in tonight's game, they say, after defender Jess

Carter revealed the vile and abhorrent racial abuse that she has suffered online. Now, the abuse has been widely condemned. The coach Serena Wiegman said the abuse was disgusting and disgraceful and that taking the knee was not enough. The head of Sport England, as I mentioned, that's the Community Sport Funding Agency, has written to Ofcom to express its deep concern regarding the recent wave of racist and sexist abuse directed at England's women's football team on social media. Now the person who wrote that letter is Chairman Chris Boardman who joins me now. Good morning Chris. Morning. We also have with us former Lioness and pundit Leanne Sanderson. Good morning Leanne. Good

morning. So Chris talk me through why you decided to do this. Do you think it'll make a difference? Well in its simplest terms, Jess and millions like her shouldn't have to stop using social media because of abuse and millions of true fans shouldn't be denied the interaction and connection with these role models. And it very much feels, doesn't it it that internet trolls seem to be given free reign at the moment by big tech companies to spread what is violent and misery and it's just got to stop. We know that women are significantly more likely to receive online abuse than men and some of the studies are showing it's up to 27 times more abuse and the spotlight that is understandably and excitingly on the women's euros at the moment is giving us a platform to say we've got to do something about it.

First of all, we've all got to speak up and say no, and then we've got to work together and applaud action. And of course, online, Ofcom, our best place place to do that and we want to help them. So what did you say? I'm sorry? What did you say to Ofcom? Well essentially acknowledging the fact that they now have powers so I think the role that they play is absolutely vital. So the online safety act, which is from 2023,

gives them a framework to address illegal and harmful content, including hate speech and misogynistic abuse. And they have the power to fine as well. Now, Ofcom's published its initial code of practice, which we're interested to see how that can be used to address this kind of targeted abuse. And it's also issued draft

guidance then, yes, so they've started to work on improving online safety for women and girls in particular. And we just want the opportunity to talk to them about it and really work out what measure, how measures can be strengthened and enforced and how we can help because we're all involved in sport. We work with every governing body in sport to help people get involved. We identified quite a long time ago, the barriers to sport are often a long way from the pitch. And things like this are intimidating.

And our researchers showed that this kind of abuse is what makes people just move away if they're just getting interested in sports. All of that means we just need to get together and work out what we can all do. Have you heard from Ofcom? Any response? Well, I only wrote them today. Nothing yet. Five minutes.

Okay. Well, I'm very glad that you came on so soon after that as well. But I want to bring in Leanne. Interesting, I think, Leanneanne to look at your career because I suppose social media wasn't as big when you were on the pitch but it very much is now as a pundit. Tell me a little bit about your story. Yeah I mean for someone like myself I think I experienced it every single day. I didn't really experience it as a player because I retired six years ago. Yes social media was a thing but it wasn't as prevalent women's football wasn't as popular then and I think since the lioness is won obviously there's more pressure, more people watching the game, more eyes on it but for someone like myself

I experience this every single day. I think the concern for me was the uproar and the shock and horror when Jess Carter's come out with this, I wasn't surprised and anybody that's in the minority, anybody that's a person of color, any woman, someone like myself that works in a male predominantly followed sport, like football, people love to give me their opinions, sometimes it is positive. But at the same time, you know, you can tell me you don't think I'm a great pundit, you can tell me you didn't think I was a great footballer. But most of the time for me, it's about the color of my skin, my sexuality, my weight, being a woman. So I tickle the wrong boxes in some people's eyes, but the right in my eyes.

So I can speak true to how that feels. It can affect your mental health. It's easy for people to say turn off your phone. It's easy for people to say come off of social media. I've had that tug of war many times because then you think well they're the people that are winning. But then if you're crying yourself to sleep at night because you're upset with what people are saying then who's really winning. So what do you do Leanne? I'm

just thinking just say you've done your stint, you've been on air, do you check your phone afterwards? Not anymore. I used to when I was on there when I was doing you know Talksports, Sky, all the companies I worked for I used to check it but now I don't because you realize you can't unsee something once you've seen it. And you might get 100 nice messages, but you might get five that are not very nice. And those are the ones that hurt. So, you know, at the end of the day, like Jeff Carter, what she's going through is an absolute disgrace. But I'm not surprised. And I just get sick and tired of companies continuously saying education, education,

what does that look like, what are the tangibles. For me it's just lip service really. So I think for me I'm all for standing up for what's right. I don't think we should divide and conquer but I do think this needs to continue, the conversations need to continue not just because Jess Carter is the only one that's spoken about it right now but I promise you now there's many more people in the public eye that this is happening to every single day. So hopefully Jess Carter is getting the support that she deserves and her teammates are rallying around her, Serena Vigman is, but yeah it's not easy. Yeah because obviously as we've talked about it and Chris mentioned there as well the timing of reaching out and writing to Ofcom that the semi is taking place tonight and Jess Carter, you know, has spoken out, obviously many people

reacting in a positive way to her, but that is a weight on her shoulders. Yeah it is and I think, you know, I think for someone like Jess Carter, I think people have to understand playing for your country is the biggest honour that also comes with pressure. Only one percent of the population actually get to play for England and it's a massive sacrifice that you make away from your family and those types of things. She's not having her best tournament and you know she doesn't even need to tell her that but then no one should ever be racially abused and unfortunately when I knew Jess wasn't having her best tournament I knew exactly what was coming because it happens the same as

Bukhoi Saka, Marcus Rashford, Jayden Sancho. It's just the reality of what it is. And like I said, my biggest problem is that the uproar it's caused because this is every single day. It's not just because Jess is speaking about it. It's the time when it is perhaps the level of attention that it's getting. But Leanne, how can a sportswoman perform at her highest level with the backdrop of racism like that?

How hard is it? It's hard and I don't think you're ever, you're not going to eradicate racism, but what you can do is protect yourself. And I think you do have to come off of social media for that period of time, because, you know, all that matters is what works best for you. I used to think, OK, who's really winning if you come off of it? Again, this goes back to social media needs to do more. I've been to the House of Parliament, I've been to House of Commons many, many times. You know, yes, we have got far with regards

to the police do a lot now, you know, they've got the IP addresses and those types of things. But if they can, if they can take down music, when I put music up for copyright infringement, and how can they not take away, you know, these types of abuse, it just, I get a generic response and almost like a robot responding to me when I report it, and it says it's within and how can I not take away, you know, this type of abuse? It just, I get a generic response and almost like a robot responding to me when I report it and it says it's within the jurisdictions of the guidelines. Well, you can't get any more offensive than some of the messages that I'm reporting, to be honest.

What about that, Chris? I mean, do you hold out hope for real change? Well, these moments, as horrific as they are, give us that opportunity. And I think what Leanne's just been talking about, you've got culture and consequence. And consequence is the bit that Leanne was highlighting that isn't there at the moment.

I think culturally, us all speaking out and saying no, and then also speaking to Ofcom, who have the power to do something about this, this specific thing. I mean, even the Prime Minister's come out there and said it today that that should give them the support that they need that if you want to go after this we are all backing you so this moment actually could you lead to some some positive at least I certainly hope that it will I think I think it's such a sorry to step on you there, Chris, but I think it's such an interesting point that Leanne makes there,

for example, with music piracy, for example, or copyright infringement that it can be acted on immediately. Yeah. And we I mean, I've been listening to things this morning around artificial intelligence, and we all know it's there. But these are opportunities to spot and act really quickly if these things are pointed in the right direction. Ofcom now has the powers to do that, it has a framework, it can actually actively find and everybody is saying do it, we are behind you and so this is a potential real moment for change. Did you expect it just as women's sport, women's football in particular

becomes more successful, more scrutiny follows, is it inevitable that abuse also does too? Well it's certainly going to get a focus, it's likely to be the most watched sporting event in this country this year, it's one of the biggest events ever, it's got such reach that it will also attract unwanted attention. And it gives us, as I say, an opportunity to stamp on it, to do something about it. So I'm pleased everybody's speaking out, but I kind of heard Leanne there when she said, you know, where are the consequences? Where's the action?

We all agree in principle. So do something. And I really hope Ofcom do that and we'd be delighted to talk to them and see if there's any way that anything we can do to help because it's just a big part of what we do those barriers these are the barriers to people just getting started in sport and the fact that we've got one of our biggest role models says right I can't interact with the public now we all lose out.

And let me turn back to you, Leanne. Do you think Jess is likely to be in the lineup this evening? Um, it particularly not particularly based upon her performance, but I don't think it's got anything to do with her taking a step away from, you know, the whole situation, like I said, but it's not I'm not the manager, Serena Vigman is no way saying Serena we trust. So, you know, I think the players are rallying around us. Serena Vigman has come out and spoken in support, which I think is really positive because if this was a few years ago, I can honestly tell you that wouldn't have been, you know, welcomed to stand up and speak up.

It was almost like, no, we're not going to talk about it. And we brush it under the carpet. So I love Serena Vigman. I like the fact that players are speaking up and standing with Jess. And she needs that type of support around her. And maybe on a more positive note, how hopeful are you for tonight's game? Yeah, I feel really optimistic. I think we overcome that massive hurdle against Sweden the other day.

We all saw the penalties yesterday wasn't great, but at the end of the day, the Linus is on they go. And I think, you know, Italy, we should beat them. We beat them last year, but it's European Championship. You know, anything is possible. Anything can happen. It's true, but I believe we can do it. Well, I want to thank both of you, former Lioness and now pundit

Diane Sanderson for sharing her story. Also, Chris Boardman, chairman of Sport England, who have written to Ofcom in relation to the abuse within women's sport. And of course, you can stay with the BBC for that semi that will be taking place tonight. Now on to my next guest, who has come into studio. It is the Labour peer, Baroness Margaret Hodge, MP for three decades before she stood down at the last election. But after being diagnosed with breast cancer in her late 70s,

Baroness Hodge wants routine mammograms to be extended to women over 70. I'll get you, Baroness Hodge, to tell the story of how that came about, just to let people know that generally there is routine screening only available for those in the UK, women between the ages of 50 and 70. But tell me how you came to decide this is necessary.

First of all, call me Margaret, please. Well, I was actually 80 when I was diagnosed and my daughter had had breast cancer and it was when I was still an MP and I thought, oh my god, I better go and get myself checked was when I was still an MP and I thought oh my god I better go and get myself checked but I was so busy so it was on my to-do list yeah after I stopped being an MP and I went along and then had the shock of having a positive diagnosis now the interesting thing it's the statistics really that have moved me on this. A third of women with breast cancer are over 70. And 45% of the women who die from breast cancer are over 75. So age is actually a really important

factor in causing deaths from breast cancer. And it's bonkers that we stop having this automatic you get a letter of a couple of years inviting you to a mammogram. That was set I think probably in the 80s when women were dying at 75. We all thankfully live longer and enjoy life longer now. And I just think it should go up in America now they they some automatically offer women mammograms until 75 I'd go beyond that and it'll cost a little bit of money but actually it'll save the NHS money because the interventions if you intervene early you get further and the second thing is give us all a better life. Well that's interesting, I mean you

will know better than anyone the challenges that are facing the NHS, the lack of funding in so many areas. Some might come back talking about these are older women, that age is not on their side when it comes to for example diagnosis and is routine mammograms really necessary? What would you respond? You see I raised my eyebrows when you said that. Yes you did, we should say that for our radio listeners. I think that is outrageous. I don't think, I think that is sort of discrimination on the grand stage. You know I'm now, I'm coming through it. I had a lot of treatment. I still feel absolutely knackered,

but I've got a whole lot of energy left in me. Let me just say to you that the very week that I got the diagnosis that I had breast cancer, I was rung up by two government ministers and offered two new jobs, which I'm now doing. And I'm loving it. I'm full of enthusiasm. I still want to change the world. And writing us off is wrong. And I think probably, if I can say this Nuala, I think

it's men deciding the future for women. And you know, I'm sure women listening to the program will agree with me that we'd already written off at the age of 70. I'll tell you, I've been surprised. This all came, there was an article in the Observer around the issue and I can't tell you how many emails I've had from women saying this is a great campaign and telling their stories about cancer too. And I just want to put something else into the mix which is important is we know that early diagnosis through mammogram saves 1,300 lives a year at present between women aged 50 to 7. We know that.

So if we know that early diagnosis can save lives, why on earth stop it at 70 when women carry on actually being active and increasingly will be so? I know there's a little cost involved, but is coming in now so the diagnosis will be more accurate and as you do that and I think there's a saving, you know, you'll spend less money, the interventions won't have to be quite so horrible, you won't have to spend quite so much NHS money. It's the same old thing, early intervention is the best prevention. And I will read a statement this is from the Department of Health and Social Care that said we are guided on the age ranges for routine breast cancer screening by the independent scientific advice of the UK

National Screening Committee which assesses the benefits of screening, weighed against any potential harms and keeps its advice under review. Can I come back? Yeah, and their argument would be that they're targeting resources where they're most needed. Well, can I come back on that? Because the review, as I understand it, of is it too young an age to stop having the automatic right to mammograms? that research won't be completed until 2032. So it's going to be three governments away before anyone starts tackling that. I think that's unacceptable and I think they should be looking at research elsewhere. Why are the Americans, why have they raised the

H&R to 74, 75, which they have done? It's a weak argument. I know everything costs money, but this is really a case, I'm sure your listeners feel the same as me, for heaven's sake. It's a mammogram, AI is increasingly used, it might detect more women early, it might save lives and it might save NHS resources by early intervention. 84844 if you'd like to chime in. Women over 70 can still request breast screening every three years if they contact their local breast screening service to ask for an appointment. Were you aware that you could request that? I was aware of that but I think I respond to you know a

request yeah I respond better to an email or a letter to the repost telling me to go for a mammogram and that's what I had done all the time. And you know, I have a family history around breast cancer, so probably I should have done it myself, but also wouldn't it have been better if that had been done? They said to me at the time, they thought the cancer had probably been in my body for about 18 months by the time they detected it and you know it might have been detected earlier. The treatment I got was brilliant so I have absolutely no quarrel with that. I think the caring, the attention, everything worked brilliantly and oddly enough cancer stays with you for the rest of your life because you're always going to be going back to

hospital and you're always going to be having preventative treatments so it just becomes a feature of your life. Yeah so there is that that change. There is the research, cancer research and NHS looking into it potentially upping the age limit that you are looking for. Quicker, quicker please. Yeah that's what I was about to ask you. What do you think that timeline might be? Well, it's crazy as I understand it and if somebody, I've got it wrong, I'm happy to take this back but my understanding is the research doesn't report till 2032 and then

by the time, you know, that'll go, that will be delayed. It always is, let's say 2034, then it's got to be considered. That's why I say it's probably three parliaments away before politicians will have the chance to do this very simple thing of raising the age. But you have a long career in parliament, of course, campaigning to change this from the House of Lords. Do you think you stand a chance? I hope so. It's not an extravagant demand. I think based on common sense. I do think the voice of women in this decision making is hugely important.

I wonder who is taking the decision. And I think just have a bit of common sense about it. There is something I learned when I was in hospital that all too often, you know, we do our own research here, we do our own evaluation of new drugs, everyone else across the world is doing the same sort of stuff, why don't we actually share that knowledge and if the Americans have come to the conclusion of raising it really more by another five years, why on earth don't we just listen to the research that they've done and at least do that? I have to say being 80 I would raise it beyond 75 as well. Well a listener has got in touch just since we've been speaking. This is Jackie. She says,

six years ago I was lucky enough to be called to have a mammogram. I thought I was too old, I was 71. A small tumor was found, I had surgery and followed up by annual mammograms. All was okay. After the five-year follow-up I was concerned at not having another mammogram so we're getting to 75, 76 at this stage. I had to ring the local screening center, had the follow-up, very early cancer signs were found again. Again I had surgery and so far all okay. Long may that continue Jackie, thanks very much for getting in touch. Has anybody responded to you specifically though and said they're on board to help you try and make this change? Lots of people, lots of MPs.

Do you want a name? Well, I think one or two, one of the health ministers sent a message and said that she would support us as well, but there are MPs in the House of Lords, members of the House of Lords who I obviously see daily, who've all said this is a great campaign and lots of people. And as I said, the emails have been really really positive. Remember this figure, 1300 women every year are saved from death because of the early diagnosis that comes from a mammogram. There's women under 70. If we could extend that we might save more lives and it's not just you know we can contribute just because you reach this age of 70 it doesn't mean you stop contributing.

Definitely not in your case. Two new jobs in this parliament. Yeah I have. I've been asked by the Secretary of State for Culture to review the Arts Council which I'm loving talking to lots and lots of people of how we can improve the way that they nurture and fund the arts. And then I've been asked by the Prime Minister to be his anti-corruption champion, which is a massive task, trying to deal with everything from ethics and behavior of politicians at home through to the increasing way that London is used as a center for dirty money by too many kleptocrats, villains, drug smugglers and people smugglers.

They're both really interesting jobs and I feel deeply privileged and it was just weird getting them the week I got the diagnosis because I thought oh my god, can I take him on? But both the ministers who rang me, I said to them I think I'm going to be out of circulation for some time, both waited and I've now started on both of them. I do get tired so I've got to pace myself a little bit which I'm not very good at but I'm really looking forward, you know, I love doing both jobs and I'm writing a book so it's sort of a little bit of everything. A lot going on. The Prime Minister, let's talk about him for a moment, he kicked out four MPs this week after they had objected to various Labour plans and

proposals and made that separate decision to suspend Diane Abbott, which people will have been following made by Labour headquarters who felt they'd no choice but to act, interpreting her comments as repeating a claim that Jewish people don't experience racism in the same way as black people. Diane Abbott has said, it's obvious, quoting, this Labour leadership wants me out. What do you think all of that says about the state and the strength of the Prime Minister's leadership? I think separate the two. The Diane Abbott issue, I just can't understand what she was thinking about because she

originally made this claim about a hierarchy of racism, which is really as a Jewish woman who's fought anti-Semitism in my Labour Party, we all found abhorrent. I mean, it's awful. You know, you all experienced racism I mean, it's awful, you know, how you all experience racism, whatever, you know, for whatever reason you are, you're targeted. And I cannot understand why she chose, having apologized for that, having recognized that it caused hurt, I cannot understand why she then chose to go back on that. I think the Prime Minister had no option to suspend her. I don't think it's anything about wanting her out of the party. I really think it

was in Diane's own hands to control that. I think the last thing probably the Prime Minister wanted was to have another row. On the others, I was in the government in, you know, 97, different era, but you know we had benefit, we had trouble then and it's really when you inherit a situation and the finances of the country now are dire very very different from where we were in 97 there's very little money about everything's broken from the prisons through to the school system to the health service to the asylum system everything's broken and yet you haven't got the resources to do it. So we all want to do more. We all want to

tackle child poverty. I was involved in the Sure Start program when I was the Minister. It was one of the most satisfying things I've done in my life. So we all want to do that but you've got to be a team. You've got to work as a team. There are ways in which you can raise issues and you've got to do that in those traditional ways. You're there because you're a Labour person. Don't think people never elected me because I was Margaret Hodge. They elected me because I was the Labour candidate for barking. And I think people should recognize and work as a team. So that sounds like you agree with the kicking out of the four MPs.

They're not kicked out. They've been suspended. I hope this gives them time for reflection. I hope there'll be conversations with the Whips. I hope they will soon be back in the parliamentary Labour Party, very different from the Ryan Abbott situation, and I hope that when we come back in September after what has been a really difficult year, not the sort of a year we'd like, that people will work together in the common interest and know that we're all driven by the same values, that we want decent public services, we want people, we want greater equality for people, but we want it within a thriving economy. A thriving economy and social justice are the two sides of the same coin.

So you do see those moves, be it about the MPs, even separate from Diana, but if you want, as a show of leadership, officer Chris Dahmer? I think he has got to reassert that control over the parliamentary Labour Party and find other ways, talking to MPs, his ministers talking to MPs, the whips talking to MPs, to ensure that we're a broad church. So there's obviously going to be differences of views, but you bring those together. You don't use your position to undermine the first Labour government we've had in 14 years that has got so much to do and is constrained so much by the finances. Let me turn back to some of our listeners just who have been getting in touch. I completely agree that the age for mammograms should be extended, not only

for older people but also for younger. My mum was diagnosed with breast cancer age 45 which led to a realisation that there are a lot of women below 50 being diagnosed with breast cancer. They really need to extend the age range. You mentioned the United States, Margaret, I know it's 35. There is when they start screening as opposed to 50. Christine, I have breast cancer, age 75. I self-referred for a mammogram and after experiencing pain in my breast, I was lucky as most ductile breast cancer doesn't present as a lump in the breast and isn't detected until too late.

And I'm 77. I've had to fight this year to get a mammogram. I fully support any campaign to get mammograms for older women. Prevention is better than cure. Hooray! We shall leave it there, Brownice Margaret Hodge. Margaret, thank you so much for joining us this morning in studio. Thank you for having me. And also just a little more on the statements from the Department of Health and Social Care. They say our sympathies go out to Margot Hodge and all women affected by breast cancer. Just an addition to what they talked about when it came to the benefits of

screening and that they're age-assessed. They say although routine breast cancer is offered to women between 50 and 70, women over 70 as we mentioned can still request a breast screening every three years by contacting the local breast screening service to ask for an appointment. So that might be helpful to know. Now don't forget coming up in just a couple of weeks is listener week and we're still looking for some more of your brilliant suggestions. Last year we featured a woman, a school teacher, who had been struggling with an uncontrollable urge to shoplift throughout her life. She shared

the impact this criminal activity had on her and her attempts to get help for a recent diagnosis of kleptomania. The actual taking of something gives you a psychological boost for want of a better word and for that short amount of time you actually feel good but then that's taken away pretty much immediately by shame and fear of being caught. Just walking home feeling that everyone's looking at you, everyone knows that you're not who you say you are. And then actually when you get home, if you have got away with it, not even being able to eat or prepare some of the stuff that you've brought because the guilt is so much.

We've covered so many issues, also bullying, to the joy of book clubs, also is it ever okay to give up on your dreams? Whether they're fun, quirky, serious or a strong personal story, I want to hear your ideas. Text us 84844 on social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour or you can contact us via our website. Messages coming in, Lou from Shropshire. We are with you Jess Carter. BBC Woman's Hour or you can contact us via our website. Messages coming in, Lou from Shropshire.

We are with you, Jess Carter. Thank you for everything you've done for all the girls and women in the country. Keep your head held high and know that 99.99% of people have nothing but love for you. I'm asking about second chance romance as well. Fiona from Bournemouth says, I've reconnected with my first boyfriend. We were at Exeter University together 58 years ago. Now we have a lovely relationship remembering the past for making new memories into the future together. And I'm now 78. 84844 if you would like to get in touch. I want to turn to Northern Ireland next because

Northern Ireland and Scotland are the only parts of the UK where people do not have the right to read their own victim personal statements in court, although parts of their statements may be read out by a judge. A victim personal statement or a VPS is a chance for victims of crime to explain to the court in their own words how the offence has affected them. So that might be physical, emotional, financial or other ways. And it is considered by the court when deciding on the appropriate sentence. Campaigners in Northern Ireland want to see urgent changes to how those victim personal statements are handled in the court.

We're going to hear from Geraldine Hannah. She's the Commissioner Designate for Victims of Crime in Northern Ireland. But earlier I spoke to the campaigner, Julianne Boyle. Julianne didn't get the opportunity to address the court personally in her case. And so she wants to see a change for other victims. I want to say the following details of her story are graphic. Julianne was raped by her father on her 18th birthday. She became pregnant and then lost the baby.

Over 30 years later, she reported the crime and her father is now in jail. I spoke to Julianne this morning and asked her why she had wanted to read out a victim personal statement in court. Mine and my sister's impact statements were crucial because it was the first time I had cried. I never wanted him to see me break down or hurting. I wanted to put that all in my impact statement. And I am illiterate, so my wee officer had done my impact statement for me and helped me do it by my own words and it would have been more powerful to speak to him directly. I fell pregnant. I needed to name my daughter. Well I say my daughter. I always felt it was a wee girl. And I was able to fight for her. I wasn't fighting for me. I was fighting for her. So he needed to

hear this. And the judge's deliberation on my impact statement was, you raped your daughter on her 18th birthday, she fell pregnant, she lost your baby at three months, she ended up in a psychiatric unit for eight and a half months, take him down to the cells. And it would have been directly more empowering for me And it would have been directly more empowering for me as a survivor and more closure that I could have had my last say. Because they're getting away with just giving a slap in the hand, basically in my eyes.

I've had numerous people ringing me, texting me and telling me that they would love to have read their impact statements out. We have a wee group called Survivors for Justice and they've gotten in contact with us through via that. I'm 28 years fighting a broken system. So with this, because I feel you had all these words and thoughts that you wanted to express, did you think, for example, your father hearing those words, what did you want? You wanted him to understand more? Was that it?

I wanted him to know how much he destroyed my life. I wanted him to know how much it hurt me and how much I destroyed myself for his actions, for not protecting me, not being, I'll not say the word because I don't give him the right to have that word as I just called him the monster. And just for our listeners, you won't use the word father anymore, which I'm sure they will understand. Yeah. He doesn't get that right anymore. And that was empowering within itself to be told, I don't give you that right anymore. Yes, I ended up in and out of psychiatric units for the rest of my days. I destroyed my body with anorexia and bulimia. I destroyed myself relationship ways, not trusting anybody, always being guarded

and how much that he had taken away. And I wanted to give my daughter a name and I wanted him to hear that. I'm so sorry you went through that and thank you so much for sharing both what the statement means and for you and the changes you want to see. You want people to be able to speak out in court in the way that they see fit. If I have to go through every door to reach where I need to reach for victims to be able to read out their impact, they should be given that choice. That was Julianne Boyle. Thanks very much to her. I'm joined by Geraldine Hananet, the Commissioner Designate for Victims of Crime, Lorden Northern Ireland. Welcome Geraldine to Woman's Hour. It's very affecting I felt what what Julianne had to say there. So what is the current situation

in Northern Ireland with regards to VPSs or victims personal statements? Good morning Ulan, thank you for having us on today. I think you're right it is extremely powerful to hear Julianne and I think what this comes down to is do we think the voices of victims matter and of course they do and Julianne has just beautifully articulated how important victims voices are and I really credit her and other victims and survivors for highlighting this as an issue. So we undertook a research reporting to this issue last year and with the victims that we engaged with what we found was some issues around people being offered

the opportunity to make a written application and so that was tended to focus on the timing of those applications which meant that some people were not afforded the opportunity but also what significantly arose from that report was the victims we engaged with had not been told that they could make a victim personal or that they could read out their statement in court. And some in particular were told, having requested the opportunity to,

that they weren't permitted to. In one particular case, we had a victim who was told by the judge that the legislation didn't permit it. So the recommendation coming out of our report in that regard was that policy or legislation was changed to enable that to happen but more recently in February of this year a case came to light where a victim was permitted to read out their statement aloud which has really shone a light again on what is the practice.

And since that news piece, the Lady Chief Justice has confirmed that whilst the legislation is silent on the issue, it is down to judicial discretion as to whether or not a statement can be read in Northern Ireland, which shows that it can be. And what I would like to see is that victims are routinely offered the opportunity to, not everyone will want to, but that they should be offered the opportunity to. Let me read your guidance. Yes, let me read a little.

This is from Lady Chief Justice's office, Northern Ireland, that's the head of the judiciary of Northern Ireland and the president of the courts there as well. They sent us a statement saying victims personal statements in Northern Ireland were formally established under the Justice Act, that was 2015. The Act sets out certain provisions relating to the victim personal statement but is silent on the matter of these being read aloud in the court by the victim or their representative, so just to expand on what you said. Any requests made to the court by a victim or the representative to do so will be carefully considered by the court. Any changes to legislation to provide an

automatic right for a victim or their representative to read a statement allowed in court would be a matter for the Department of Justice to consider. Have you spoken to the Department of Justice? Yes, so following our report the Department of Justice is setting up a working group to look at this, legislation certainly will put, if we make changes, an automatic right to read it out. And if we need that in place, so be it. But what I am now very clear on is, given that this is down to judicial discretion, the process, the ability to do so is there.

So I would like to see it routinely offered and that victims are given the opportunity to read it aloud if they so wish. If the judge doesn't believe that that's appropriate, then I would want us to understand the reasons why and if we start to see a pattern as to the reasons why and any issues with that, then we can explore that. But certainly legislation is not needed to enable this to happen. This comes down to judges' discretion, and that's now very clear. So I'm really keen to see that promoted.

And what I think is very important as well is why this is important. These victim personal statements are the opportunity, as Julianne said, for the victim to tell their story to the court, to the judge and in some cases to the offender as well. The court system is not focused on the victim, it's focused on the law and whether or not the person accused of the crime committed the offense and rightly so that is the purpose. However, why everyone is there is because harm has been caused. So it's it's poignant and it's

fitting for me that victims are given the opportunity at the end of a trial to find enough guilt or a plea of guilt for the victims to tell us what harm has been caused. Let me read a little also from the Ministry of Justice, Northern Ireland, the minister there is Naomi Long and she has said, I'm aware of the concerns raised by victims and campaigners about the current approach to victim personal statements. I'm supportive of measures which can help victims on their journey to recovery. This includes allowing victims to read a statement in court if they wish. I see this as a powerful way for victims to tell their own story within the criminal justice process. Currently the opportunity to have a statement read out in court is not mandatory in Northern Ireland,

as we've been hearing, and the legislation does not prescribe the manner in which a VPS may be read in court or by whom. During court hearings in Northern Ireland victims can submit a written statement to tell the court about how a crime has affected them and the decision on whether a VPS can be read out is made by the judge in each individual case. She goes on to say my department has convened a working group to make changes to the current procedures and guidance for VPS including the potential to formalize arrangements for victims to request to read their VPS in court. So that's kind of the final line that you are looking for Geraldine but do you have a timeline

at all on that working group or what might be decided? Well we don't have a timeline however all efforts in my office are now on speeding that up and ensuring that the opportunity is there and is offered. And from now, victims should be being offered the opportunity to do it. Obviously the guidance will help promote that and the Lady Chief Justice's confirmation that it's judicial discretion will help ensure that all the judges are clear on that as well. And so I think the combination of that guidance, media attention, such as your coverage of it today, all helps to ensure that victims in Northern Ireland are given

the rights and entitlements that they deserve. Geraldine Hannah, Commissioner Designate for Victims of Crime Northern Ireland. If you have been affected by the issues we've been discussing for help or support, you can go to the BBC's Action Line. That's bbc.co.uk forward slash action line. You continue to get in touch just on Margaret Hodge, Baroness, who was here a moment ago. Thank you says one listener. It was on my calendar to go for a mammogram next month but I've just now made the appointment. So things moving as they listen to Woman's Hour.

I want to turn to Georgina Moore next, who's just come into the studio. Her novel River of Stars is set in a floating community on the Thames, a romance and family saga spanning three generations of women. It was inspired by her own move from self-confessed, I love this, aging party girl to houseboat mum. You may know Georgina from her first book, The Garnet Girls. You're very welcome to the Women's Era Studio. Oh, thank you so much, Nula, for having me.

So let's talk. All the action is set on Walnut Tree Island. Fictitious. Fictitious. Or is it? Or is it? Well, I live on an island. I live on Tags Island, which is in the River Thames near Hampton Court. And a long time ago, the idea dropped in my mind that there was this amazing connection between islands and the River Thames and music. Because once upon a time in about 1913, there was this crumbling sort of hotel on Taggs Island. And in it, Fred Karno, who was Charlie Chaplin's agent, he had a huge kind of amazing palm

court and there were dances and music. And I also found out about Eel Pie Island, which is upstream from me in Twickenham. And that has this incredible musical legacy. In the 60ss teenagers would all go there to this other crumbling hotel to hear these amazing bands even the Rolling Stones played there. So it kind of started to meld in my mind this connection between islands and music and the River Thames and I thought I could create one island, Walnut Tree Island, that kind of represented it all.

And music is that theme that is running along with the washer. There's Mary, one of the characters in her 60s, a backing singer who goes out with the lead singer of a band who perform on the island. So it's kind of an intersection in your writing of the two. It is. And it's a dual timeline. So you have Mary in the 60s going to the island and falling in love with a rock star as you do, Nula. And then in the modern day, she's 70 living with her granddaughter, Jo, whose life's rather passing Jo by. She's 40. She's given up her art because a man unfortunately told her she wasn't talented enough, even though she was. And Oliver Greenwood comes back to the island in this modern-day storyline and inherits the island and everyone's up in arms

because they feel their island is at threat. They feel he might sell to a developer and Joe sort of leads the community against him but the reader soon realizes that once upon a time Joe and Oliver had a teenage romance. Well you know I've been asking for the second chance romance stories this morning from our listeners, because I know you love a second chance romance. I do. Before I get to some of the stories and why you love that romance, I want to go back to the music for a moment, because there is a song being released with the book.

There is. Isn't that amazing? I mean, that's a little bit the story in a snapshot. River of Stars. It's written by Jamie Nowor, performed by Jamie there and Natalie Dunn and available to listen to on the usual platforms. That's quite unusual. Really unusual. Isn't it lovely? The idea of my publisher, Harper Collins HQ, they came to me and said, we want to do a song. And I was like, yes, please, because it just seems so relevant to River of Stars, because each chapter in River of Stars is the title of a 60s song, so it's very much

woven into the narrative. So I feel that this was a lovely, lovely thing to do. So we live on the houseboat. As we read this novel, there's this whole community, there's Potato Club that I was quite into, not just because I'm Irish. Oh yes, you would like that. community. There's potato club that I was quite into, not just because I'm Irish. Oh yes, you would like that. Which is kind of this get together. There's a lot of socialising. There is.

But you live on a houseboat on the River Thames. And I was trying to figure out as I looked at it, you know, are you the character Jo, which is one, or are you Sophie, her sidekick that is also in the story. But tell me a little bit about how it came about from, what did we, aging party girl to houseboat mum? Yeah, I mean, I had this when I wrote The Garnet Girls, people were saying, well, which one are you? Which one are you? I think the truth is I use a little touchstone of myself

in each of the female characters at different stages in my life, because then for me, it feels authentic. But then they do go off and they develop and they grow and they become something much bigger than that. I think Sophie is me when I moved to the island I was a London girl and this island where the beautiful swans and the cormorants and the herons I was like I wasn't really interested at that age in any of that but I went to live there and it was strange for me as someone who'd grown up in London where you didn't really know your neighbors and you were anonymous to have this close, I call it a floating village. I mean, everyone really does know your business. So that Sophie sort of represents me at that stage.

And I suppose Joe is, I just really want to represent women at older ages in a realistic way. And I think a lot of women do get to 40 and think, Oh, have I done everything right? You know, have I had children in time? Have I found the love of my life? And Jo is really meant to represent that, that she feels that time's running out, but it's not. And you were also inspired a little bit by Little Women. Did I read that correctly?

Yes. The character of Jo. Jo is, Little Women is one of my favorite. I mean, I think it's one of the greatest, you know, original family sagasas which is what I'm writing and yes Jo is a tribute to Little Women. Well as we talk I know you love to reread books and I know you're a romantic when I was looking at some of the books that you love, Jane Austen etc. and you are a fan of second chance romance, why?

I think it's probably my age Noola. I'm 52 and I came to writing late. I wrote Garnet Girls in lockdown just as I was about to turn 50. I think that it represents my generation as well. I think a lot of my friends are meeting the second time around is the one that sticks and works. I think that's a realistic portrait. And also I think people come with baggage and I'm very interested in damaged flawed characters as anyone who reads River of Stars will see. So I think that Second Chance, you're coming from a different place. You're coming with a lot of emotional damage of the past. So I find that really fascinating how you

deal with that. Do you want to hear a couple of stories that came into us? Yes, please. Alex in London, I have had a second chance at romance after a chance meeting in a park with my first love. We had not seen each other for 32 years. Now we're back together and I'm so pleased that fortune gave me the chance to fall in love with her all over again.

Another I recently married someone with whom I had a significant conversation at a mutual friend's wedding in 1976. We all trained at the same hospital in the early 70s. We remet at a hospital reunion in 2019. During that time he was widowed, I was divorced, life conspired to delay our first date until 2023, but we married last November. Third time lucky, a great deal to be said for shared beginnings in your early 20s. That sounds amazing. And I think there is probably something about that time, the early 20s, where some neural pathways are perhaps laid and some memories as well.

I think that's right. And also I remember meeting a couple in the Isle of Wight who had been teenagers and they'd given each other a memento on a beach and that when they were you know just and then when they met later in their 60s they had as you say this wonderful reservoir because I think when we're young those memories are so powerful especially when they're connected with you know happiness to happy times music and so they're powerful and so to go back to them is just such a big draw. We talk about these three generations of women in the same family in your book and speaking of memory, Mary, we begin to notice her memory is failing, it's very poignant, something that lots of people will relate to with loved ones, but the family and community rally round.

Why do you like to look at the generational path? I just, all the books that I love most from Joy Luck Club to you know many many female female sagas, I just think that it's so interesting to have the view of the past and the generational differences but also sometimes you get that pull don't you? You get the wisdom of the past but also the past can sometimes be a burden on my characters. Sometimes they're trying to live up to something that they've inherited or a legacy. And at the same time, they're also trying to go a new way, form a new path. And so I'm just really interested in that intersection between loyalty to legacy and

past and your inheritance, but also wanting to be your own person and pulling forward away from the generations of the past. Because you talk about inheritance for example you might be lucky enough to have something to leave behind. Yes. But you do talk about the inheritor also having it as a potential millstone at times. I think so and obviously it's a huge privilege I understand that for anyone to inherit anything. And many people don't. In Oliver's case with the island, it ruined his life in many ways because his father was so hung up on the island and returning it to its glorious past of the

60s that really he abandoned his family and he wasn't present. It was an obsession. So for Oliver, the island is a mixed blessing in many ways. He's not clear how he feels about the island. He feels that it ruined his family, but at the same time, there is a magical quality to the island that pulls people in and that's about nature and the river and everything around them. So you see that real kind of dilemma for Oliver in the past. You were and still are a book publicist by trade. And I was curious about this for your view on male authors, because our fellow Radio 4 show Antisocial focused this week

on the question of whether men are being pushed out of publishing. Have women authors been given too much attention and basically put in the spotlight? I'm very lucky to work with the Women's Prize, given too much attention and basically put in the spotlight? I'm very lucky to work with the Women's Prize, who, as we know, celebrate women authors. I feel, you know, and often this comes up, you know, do we still need a Women's Prize? Yes, we do. We, you know, we have a legacy of many lost and forgotten female voices as authors. And you you know that we've got

ground still Nula to make up and so I would say yes we still need to celebrate and promote female authors I think it's a shame if male authors feel they're being pushed out I think trends come and go in publishing I've seen many cycles as you can imagine in my 25 years in publishing and it will come back and I know that there are people who are leading separate publishing houses and imprints to try and redress the balance but my feeling is that what has happened the promotion of Female Voices very much needs to continue alongside men having an opportunity to meet to get male readers.

Are you ready to give up the publicist job yet? Not quite yet. I love it and I love that it keeps me in the world and it keeps me young and also I'm a much more empathetic publicist now. Now I'm more for myself. Lovely having you in. Georgina Moore's new book is River of Stars, Replete with a little song as well as you heard. Thanks so much for coming in and joining us on Woman's Hour. Tomorrow I'll be speaking to Dame Maggie Adderin-Pocock about the women's role in the space program and also about how Star Trek inspired her. Also we'll be talking about the first approved non-hormonal pill designed to treat hot flushes during the menopause as an alternative to HRT. I hope you'll join me right here at 10 tomorrow.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hi guys, this is Ryland and I'm here to tell you about how to be in love from BBC Sounds. Now, as a single, divorcee, I feel ready to find love again. But I want to see if there's a better way of going about it. In this series, I'm going to sit down with 12 incredible guests who are really going to help me rediscover what love truly means and how I can find it again. People like Stephen Fry, Louis Theroux, Matt and Emma Willis and many more. So join me on this journey as I explore how to be in love.

Listen on BBC Sounds.