Woman's Hour - Baroness Theresa May, Roxy Longworth, Women's Rugby

Episode Date: April 15, 2025

The Global Commission on Modern Slavery and Human Trafficking has issued a "wake-up call" to the world to act on what they deem "one of the most pervasive human rights issues of our time." The report makes several recommendations specifically for women and girls who make up 54% of the estimated 50 million people trapped in slavery around the world. They are more frequently targeted for forced marriage, sexual exploitation, and domestic labour. Nearly one in four victims are children. To discuss the topic Nuala McGovern is joined by the former Prime Minister, Baroness Theresa May and Nasreen Sheikh, who is a survivor of modern slavery.As the Six Nations passes the half way mark we speak to fans from each of the four nations to discuss their teams. We also look ahead to their hopes for the Women's Rugby World Cup, being held in England later this summer. Nuala is joined by Kate Buck, Betti Ginnelly, Charlotte Williams and Ailbhe O'Nolan.As a teenager, Roxy Longworth was coerced into sending nude images online. After years of shame and struggling with her mental health, she is now 22 and leading the Behind Our Screens campaign about child safety online. Roxy and her mother Gay, co-authors of the memoir When You Lose It, join Nuala to talk about shame, recovery and bridging the generational gap.And a look at the cultural history of the speculum from Dr Shema Tariq.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Corinna Jones

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. It is indeed. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, this morning, the former prime minister, now Baroness Theresa May. She is the chair of the Global Commission on Modern Slavery and Human Trafficking and called slavery the greatest human rights issue of our time. Baroness May will be joined by Nazarene Shaikh, a survivor of modern slavery. That conversation coming up.

Also today, Women's Rugby. I know we have a lot of fans in the audience. So tell your fellow listeners how you came to the game. Was it playing or watching or both? And why do you love it? You can text the program 84844 on social media we're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note the number is 03700 100 444. Now the

Women's Six Nations rugby fans will know this is on right now so we're going to speak about it with four passionate fans from across the nations. And then come August, we also have the Women's Rugby World Cup taking place in England. So there is lots to celebrate these months with the sport. Share the love of rugby today. Text 84844. We are also this hour going to hear from Roxy Longworth, who at 13 was pressured into sending nude photos to an older boy.

Now almost a decade later, she's fighting for young girls not to have to go through what she did. She'll be here with her mom, Gay. Plus a project on the cultural history of the vaginal speculum. It has just been announced as one of the winners of the 2025 Welcome Collection Non-Fiction Awards. We're going to speak to its creator, Dr. Shima Tariq. She'll also be joining us in studio. But let me begin with the words of a report out by the Global Commission on Modern Slavery and Human Trafficking. If we fail, millions of lives are at risk. Well, the group chaired by the former prime minister, now Baroness Theresa May, has issued a wake-up call to the world to take action on what they deem to be one of the most pervasive human rights issues of our

time, that is modern slavery and human trafficking. The United Nations set a goal of eliminating modern slavery by 2030. Not that far away now. That's a target the former prime Minister says is in danger of not being met as the issue she says has dropped down the international agenda. This report makes several recommendations specifically for women and girls who make up 54% of the estimated 50 million people trapped in slavery around the world. They're also more frequently targeted for forced marriage, sexual exploitation and domestic labor. Nearly one in four victims are children. So the former Prime Minister is joining me today. She's the first woman to hold two

offices of state, that is Baroness Theresa May and is now chair of this global commission. Also we're joined by Nazarene Shaikh who's a survivor of modern slavery and is a founder of the Local Women's Handicrafts, a social business venture in Nepal that empowers marginalised women through traditional craftsmanship. You're both very welcome to Women's Hour this morning. Good morning, very good to be with you. Baroness May, let me begin with you. Talk our listeners through this report. What are the issues that you want to highlight and why now? Well the main aim of the Global Commission is to raise the issue of modern slavery and human trafficking up the political agenda.

Ten years ago when I was Home Secretary, I introduced the Modern Slavery Act here in the UK, which was groundbreaking legislation at the time. As Prime Minister, I then launched a call to action at the United Nations. There was a sense politically that people saw this as a key issue to address, hence the United Nations goal in the Sustainable Development Goals to eliminate modern slavery and human trafficking by 2030. But sadly in recent years we've seen the issue fall down the political agenda. So we want to raise that momentum. We want to say to governments you need to act on this issue and you need to act now.

Because I think it would shock the listeners that there are 50 million people, and that's an estimate, it may be more, 50 million people trapped in slavery around the world today. Why do you think it fell down the agenda? I think there were other issues that came up the political agenda. Governments often find it difficult to focus on lots of things at the same time, and so issues like climate change, conflict, Covid of course, but all of those issues actually exacerbated vulnerability to modern slavery and human trafficking, and one of the messages of our report to governments is that as you deal with those issues don't deal with them individually. Think of their implications for modern slavery and human trafficking and deal with these issues holistically.

You mentioned the past 10 years and also when you started focusing efforts on this but do you remember when you decided that this was the topic that you were going to put your energy into? Well yes and it wasn't a single moment. I'd done some work on human trafficking in opposition and then in government which came out largely of work I was doing on violence against women because as you said earlier, the majority of people in slavery will be women and girls. And then in 2014 the Centre for Social Justice

here in the UK published a report which talks not about people just being brought across the border into slavery in the UK but actually also about slavery that occurs here in this country and I suddenly I realized this was a bigger issue and we needed to address it as that bigger issue. Something that perhaps is hidden in plain sight so to speak. I want to bring in Nazreen. Nazreen, you're very welcome to the programme. You advocate now for women in this position

and you also have a personal experience of it. Perhaps you could tell us a little bit about the damage that can be caused by modern slavery for women. Thank you so much everyone for being here. about the damage that can be caused by modern slavery for women. Thank you so much, everyone, for being here. Definitely as a survivor of child labour and forced marriage, it takes away the dignity from within and outside. And it takes a lot to survive and come through this. And one of the things that global commissions have really done is that

embedding the lived experience, bridging those gaps and making sure that our prevention frameworks and all the indicators that indicates the heightens of the vulnerabilities and make sure that the frameworks guides the policymakers and strengthens the prevention to effort and ultimately safeguard the millions of lives that is currently at risk. As I said, this takes away the dignity, this takes away the confidence from the women, and the fact that 54% of the total 50 million of the modern slavery is women. And so they play a huge role in contributing on this suffering. And the fact that survivors, I feel like they have the absolutely understanding that this is not just

about the few people who are doing wrong thing. This is a systematic issues that runs through every layer of our global supply chains. And we know this because we have moved through those supply chains ourselves. We have seen it as an eye witness from the inside and the crisis that demands comprehensive prevention and protections measure to mitigate its impact and reduce this likelihood. It's quite something Nazreen to hear you say, that you were somebody who went through the global supply chain, because we think of that with products, right? Not people. Exactly. Exactly.

What would you have liked to have seen, perhaps, for somebody who was in your situation, what could have helped? You mentioned forced marriage, for example, perhaps that first step in the path that you went on when it comes to modern slavery. What could have helped? There's so many things that could have helped. One of the things that I feel like the women are the largest impacted by the modern slavery and they are the most influential consumers in the global economy. This movement really calls on all women and their families to take a stand and by leveraging our purchasing power, we really can demand transparency and ethical responsibility from

corporations and ensuring that the clothes that we wear, the food that we eat, the jewelry that we cherish, and even the materials that build our homes are free from forced labor. If people knew what are they consuming, they would not contribute in child labor and forced marriage. And the fact that 28 million people right now currently, as I'm speaking, are in forced labor. And also at the same time 22 million girls are being forced marriage and I call it this is basically to preserve the forced labor because these young girls in these undocumented rural village where I come from which is on the border of India Nepal young girls are being forced into marriage they have absolutely no rights so

as consumers we do have an opportunities to ask questions, be mindful and consume with with mindful. It's really interesting point you bring up there Nazreen because it brings it back instead of being this hidden in plain sight. You're talking about the things that we wear, that we buy, that we consume and I'll throw that back to you Baroness May. Nazrin brings up an important point there. I think she's looking for the individuals as well as corporations and global entities, but the individual to make a difference. Absolutely. And can I just say, I mean, it's great

to hear Nazrin. Nazrin is a member of the Global Commission and her understanding has been a huge influence on what we've been doing. You're absolutely right, this issue cannot just be solved by governments, it can't just be solved by businesses, it has to be governments, businesses, civil society, individuals acting together. And one set of recommendations from our Global Commission report is for companies, it's for companies to play their part in actually properly looking into their supply chains and identifying where there's

forced labour and not just withdrawing but actually then doing something about it to make sure that the conditions for those people working in those factories in those fields are actually the right ones and fair ones. Why do you think that transparency isn't there at the moment for the consumer? Because I'm sure people do not set out intentionally in any way to practice in a way that would harm people like Nazarene for example. Well I think first of all there's a complete lack of awareness really from people about the fact that slavery exists in these numbers around the world and it's very easy when you're looking at cheap

fashion for example but perhaps you know when your cost of living crisis you look for that cheap fashion you don't ask where it's come from. How many of us actually ask where our clothes are made, where our products are made, when we're buying them. There are some companies that now actively have taken the opportunity to look at their supply chains, they'll make sure they're fair, they will reflect that on their packaging. But it's really an awareness raising need for people to look out for those, to know what's happening and to think about it before they buy. Nazreen, would you be able to tell us what happens in some of the factories, for example,

that you've seen? Yes, there's so many things happen in these factories, which is the way that factory operates, it's so broken into pieces. My own personal experience was 10 by 10 room with six others where we worked like 15 to sometime even 18 hours a day and we would not get paid until the entire piles of like it would be mountains and piles of clothes that we had to finish in a week and if we don't finish those quota on time we would not get paid at all and forget about, you know, the basic hygiene and basic, you know, basic tools or anything like it was

very, very harsh conditions. So these are extremely traumatic experience that many of these victims, it will take thousands and millions of dollars to actually solve these issues. And if you see the situation with the forced labor, it's basically creating about 200-something billion dollars of economic profit that Lady May will talk very well about it, because that's what we're trying to tackle with understanding with the Global Commission report around human rights due diligence to really understand the company that how your bottom of the supply chain is bringing using these forced labor to create this profit which is

Unnecessary which is it's not going to help basic basic people. It's taking away cultures. It's taking away people You know ancient heritage away people you know ancient heritage crafts and it's making them into a machine basically when I was working in the short shop I did not felt like human I was a machine because I was just making and producing over and over and over and that's something that I feel like the world really needs to hear that everything that we purchase and consume it's made by somebody, someone, somewhere and that's people behind it. It's not just machine made, it's the people like me, the girls like me, the women like me, around these areas and if

we want to see them we must ask questions, we must become aware, we take a time to read these Global Commission report and there's so many incredible daytime numbers. Thank you for that Nazarene and the report is nearly 200 pages long. Nazarene talks about reading it there but you know I'm mindful that it's 2025. 2030 was the target for ending slavery and trafficking altogether. Do you still expect that to happen? Well, we have to we have to accept that target and aim for Excuse me aim for that target. I always believe if you don't have a target then actually it's too easy Just to set what you're doing to one side and not think about it so we need to have that target but sadly the

United Nations also set a target of ending child labor by this year that has clearly 2025 that has clearly not happened and is not going to happen by the end of the year. That's why we need to raise political momentum. We need to get governments around the world making sure they've got the legislation in place, the support for victims in place. We need to make sure that companies are looking at their supply chains, that civil society organisations think about these issues in the humanitarian context. You know, so many times we've said the word global, right, since we began this conversation. And looking at the international stage, it is impossible not to mention the global fallout

following the tariffs that were introduced by Donald Trump in recent weeks. You of course, as British British Prime Minister served alongside him in his first term. How hopeful are you that issues like modern slavery will be given the time they need with this amount of global volatility? Well I think it's important that governments understand the impact that forced labour, the modern slavery and human trafficking have on the economy around the world because actually forced labour distorts competition, it can destabilize economies. So it's important for governments to see this. There's a moral imperative. It's the greatest human rights issue of our time.

There's a political and an economic reason for doing and taking action as well. Because you have been following this issue for so long, did you ever speak to Donald Trump about it? Yes and in fact in his first administration Ivanka Trump was doing work on this issue in the United States. I want governments around the world to see the importance of this issue. Ivanka isn't there anymore really in a forward, shall we say, moving role within this particular administration. Do you think there's anybody else within it that would listen? Well I think that when the American administration and others around the world looks at this issue as

both a human rights issue but also critically as an issue that destabilizes economies and that distorts competition because of forced labor that's used in supply chains. I think then that they will see that this is an issue that they should address. Continuing with global trade, you will have heard perhaps about an interview this morning that the US Vice President JD Vance said there was a good chance a trade deal could be reached with the UK following President Trump's introduction of global tariffs. Knowing what you know about Mr Trump and your previous experience working with him, how

would you advise Prime Minister Keir Starmer to negotiate with President Trump and his administration? Well I think we've been looking at doing a trade deal with the United States for some time now and it's good to hear the Vice President saying that there's a good chance that we can do that deal. I think the important thing for the Prime Minister is to keep calm, to keep those negotiations going, to know what we want as the United Kingdom from the trade deal, because this has to be a deal that is good for both sides. You will have also heard those who say the era of globalisation, which is so interesting considering

Nazarene's comments on that global supply chain, that the era of globalisation has ended following the introduction of Mr Trump's tariffs. Do you agree? Well I think that this issue of long supply chains actually first was raised during the Covid pandemic when companies suddenly realised that there were problems actually getting materials that they had previously relied on with those just-in-time supply chains. So I think there's been a process already of people looking at those supply chains. But as we say to companies, you need to know what's happening in your supply chain. Actually, I think many of them will look at look. It's hard if you've got a very lengthy supply chain. Actually I think many of them will look at look. It's hard if you've got a very lengthy supply chain. It's hard even for big companies to understand really what is happening and whether there's forced labour there.

What is hard about that though? Is it local laws? Is it regulation? When we talk about this global supply chain that literally circles the globe, you know, going through various regulations, various countries, various continents? Well the first thing is, and it's one of our recommendations, is for countries to actually have the right legislation in place, but they also need to enforce that legislation. And one of the problems, if you take the sort of place where Nazarene said that she was working, one of the problems is actually getting to that sort of situation and understanding what's happening. And what happens is if people are in that, you know, working in those circumstances,

they don't have any opportunity to raise their voice. They are the voiceless. And that is, you know, why sometimes these stories just don't come out. So finding ways of getting on the ground and actually identifying for companies what is really happening in their supply chains is so important. As we say this is hidden in plain sight. How important, I see you nodding Nazreen, how important are survivors voices in this? I feel like by uniting survivor voices and with business and civil societies and governments, we can really affirm that we can come together and this human rights crisis.

And I would say that this is a growing movement and a lot more the younger generations, they're becoming very conscious about their consumptions. And that can be the single opportunities to recognize that modern slavery and the climate crisis are the single systematic issues and honestly the transparency, awareness, and powered by the advanced technology systems that can upgrade our system fastest way towards ending this crisis by 2030s because if you look at the technology right now a lot of these resources are being used in a negative way and if we can start using it to bring the resources back to the supply chain to

make sure that instead of regulating it we bring more transparency we open up and we are not here to shame them and name them we are basically here to find it and to fix it and make sure that we no longer because still today 160 million children are in child labour and you know 28 million of them are in forced labour as I'm speaking and this is a serious crime against humanity. Thank you for that Nazreen. Back Back to you Baroness May. While I have you in the Women's Hour studio I just wanted to get your take before you leave us on the Conservative Party at this time. Kimmy Badenock is of course the leader, the fourth woman to lead the party. What

are the biggest challenges she faces as party leader given now that the Conservatives are in opposition? Well being leader of the opposition is one of the hardest jobs in politics. I think the challenge that Kemi faces, which she has is grasping, is actually building the party up from the grassroots. It's easy when you're in government for a significant period of time to get complacent and we need to build the party up from the grassroots, which is exactly what Kemi is doing. I think it's right that she's setting up these policy commissions so actually looking at issues carefully and thoughtfully before the next election.

Did the Conservatives get complacent? Well I think, I think in a sense, when you're in government it's too easy to think that you're going to carry on being in government. And why is it the hardest to be in opposition? Why is that the hardest job? It's the hardest job because actually as leader of the opposition it's often very difficult for people to actually look at what you're doing and look at what you're saying because all the focus is on government. Closer to an election people do look at the leader of the opposition, they do look at what the opposition party is doing and that's why it's right at this point in time for Kemi to be rebuilding the party. This is the time to be doing it.

And you think she's doing a good job with that? I do. On that note, thank you very much for joining us, Baroness Theresa May and also Nazarene Shaikh, who is a survivor of modern slavery. Baroness May is as well the chair of the Global Commission on Modern Slavery and Human Trafficking and we'll continue talking about this issue. Thank you very much for coming into us. Thank you.

We are on something completely different. Deep in to the women's rugby Six Nations. Just two weekends left to go and as things currently stand England are top of the table by one bonus point over France. Ireland, Italy and Scotland have had a mixed campaign so far. They occupy third, fourth and fifth. Wales currently last but will be hoping to avoid the wooden spoon. Now with the Women's Rugby World Cup coming up later this year hosted in England and in touching distance of all four home nations, what do fans of each team make about how their country is performing at the moment? Well, I'm joined by England fan, that is Kate Buck.

She's in Dorset. We have Ireland fan, Elva O'Nolan in County Kildare. Charlotte Williams, our Welsh fan in Abergele and Betty Ganele in Dumfries and Galloway. And our Scottish fan. Welcome to you all. Shall I begin in Wales? Why not? Charlotte, good to have you with us. I was mentioning how they're doing. How are you feeling about the team's performance so far? I think although it's been disappointing to see that we're at the bottom of the table, I think we can take some positives from this campaign. I think that obviously having Sean come in to the team very recently, in the past three weeks, just before the campaign, is a massive builder for our team. I think that's going to bring strength throughout the tournament and we can see that the players

are already enjoying what they're doing a lot more than they were in the last campaign. You can see some moments of individual brilliance which is great and I think we just need to continue to do that for the full 80 minutes and then we might start winning some games. I love the positivity and you coach a women and girls team and I'm wondering because I'm asking about the love of rugby today as well. Tell me a little bit about what you hear from them and also a little bit about perhaps how you came to the game. Yeah, so I manage the women's and girls team in Abu Gali and I started playing rugby about 10 years ago.

I was quite late to playing rugby and that was just because I was told that I couldn't have an opinion on rugby unless I played I thought I thought I'll give it a go And that's what happened. Unfortunately, I became ill about five years ago So I'm no longer able to play and that's why I now manage the girls on the women's team instead There's lots of positivity going on the game is massively growing in in the girls and the women's side of things. And hopefully we'll start seeing some positive outcomes in the near future.

Just an aside with some of the other love coming in from our listeners. We're on our way to watch our daughter Jess Taylor play for England under 18s against Scotland in Six Nations from a very proud mum. So says Amanda 84844. Charlotte, stay with us. I want to move over to Ireland with the magic of radio and to Elva. Good to have you with us. Wanted to let people know that rugby Northern Ireland and Ireland competing on the same team. Last weekend, a good first half from Ireland, but then England, as they often do, ran away with it in the second half. How are you feeling about that third place slot?

Hi, Nuala. I think I'm quite confident that third place is achievable again. We achieved it last year after a pretty dismal year in 2023. So very much third place is our aim. And I think with the Women's Six Nations, historically over the last seven years, it's very much been England won, France too and everybody else competes for third and fourth and yeah I think it's definitely a possibility. What would it take for Ireland to get further

up that ranking? It's a lot of structural changes. I think over the last two years with Scott Beamant in charge, we've seen huge progress on the pitch. We've seen huge progress and development amongst the players. But there's a ceiling to that without the right structural domestic game in place. Like what? What structural issues are you thinking about? Primarily a competition level. So, you know, a lot of the English, Welsh and Scottish players will play in the PWR with a handful of the Irish players as well. And that's the English league. It's the best league in the world. But a lot of the Irish players aren't playing in that and they're playing in the primarily the Celtic Challenge, which is a newly developed competition. It's painted as a development competition, but I think the the Irish are very much treating it as their elite competition. Unfortunately, steel sharpens steel

and we're not playing the best in the world in that competition yet. So in order to really compete against the English and French within the six nations, we really do need to start competing with the best in the world in order to become the best. And the steel sharpens steel. I like that line at the PWR, the premier ship, women's rugby. Some messages coming in, Elva. You have the love of the game as do many. I came to rugby last year in my mid 50s, says a listener, when my local club were looking for new players. I wondered if they would think I was too old, but despite being the oldest by a long way,

I feel I found my tribe. Is it your tribe, rugby, Elva? Absolutely. I came to rugby when I moved to college at the age of 19. And I played sport all of my life. But when you start to play rugby, you do feel like you've found your people. It's not simply a sport and a bunch of women coming together. It becomes an obsession. It becomes people, you know, people are putting their bodies on the line. Yeah. On the pitch. And you're you become so close, even with people you tend to not get on with

You still back them up and you become so strong, you know as a bond. It's a fascinating thing I think rugby is almost an addiction and a positive one. It's it's Brilliant to be involved in I Love hearing that and stay with it as well because we need to hop over to Scotland, speak to Betty. Hi, Betty. How's the team doing? How would you describe it? I was at the game on Saturday. I was on Edinburgh for the game. And to be honest, firsthand, we looked tired. We looked a bit fed up with playing rugby, to be honest. That's not good.

No, I think that's been the theme throughout the last couple of games at Six Nations. We've got our core team and if we lose the injuries, we have injuries, we lose players to other things, we seem to just not be able to be the same level as we normally were. So take Saturday for example, we lost our scrim half, Bremen or Holder, within 10 minutes, and after that we just fell off and Etli was 100% the better team on the day. I have to tell our listeners that when I'm speaking to you I can see you on a screen and you're in a digger, you're working, taking a few minutes out. Yeah I'm in the Galloway Forest at work currently. So it's fascinating to me as well though is the fact that I, as a 29 year old digger driver, played in the same league this year as Adele Ferrie

and Molly Pullman who started for Scotland this year. That's the basis of Scottish Rugby is yes we send girls down to play for the PWR, we have girls playing in France, but the Celtic Challenge is a catalyst for people like me who can step up. So there's girls played in the league that I was playing in that they have taken that step up to Celtic challenge is a catalyst for people like me who can step up. So there's girls played in the league that I was playing in that they have taken that step up to Celtic challenge and have got a call up to the national squad. And I think that is brilliant. And we need to keep enforcing that to keep fresh blood into the Scotland squad. PWR, which we've mentioned, the English league, as we were talking about with Ailva as well.

So what do you think? Because Ailva was giving us her analysis on what's holding Ireland from progressing, for example, what is it do you think for Scotland? I think not to dismiss the SRU and what they're currently doing in the Scottish Rugby Union, not to dismiss what pathway they've got currently, but the step between what England has in place and what France has in place is massive. The pathway from the pathway from, we at my club at Sturture Rugby Club, we have from under 12s to under 18 girls playing, we've got girls as young as seven playing. If there's a clear pathway to them from

running around on a Sunday to running out in Edinburgh on a Saturday with a Scotland shirt on their back, that needs to be a clear pathway that everybody can see and everybody can feel that they can achieve it. There seems to be that massive gap between finishing girls rugby at Under 18s and seeing a clear way to get to the top. Interesting. Messages coming in, this is from Daisy and Tim this morning. We're currently talking about the passion that people have for this sport. We're currently heading to the Under 18 women's Six Nations rugby at Wellington College. Our daughter Betsy Meads is captaining England against Scotland at 12 o'clock. Super proud, very excited, wishing the team all the very, very best.

You know, it's interesting to me, Betty, because obviously there's the passion and the love for the game, but I'm hearing about some of the obstacles. With you, tell me a little bit about how you came to it. I know you said you were playing. So I started playing rugby with the boys at school at about 11 years old and I found a sport where I could do it. It was not easy but I just, it clicked and I began playing with a girls team because I reached 12 years old, couldn't play with the boys anymore, played with the girls team. Played until I was about 17, moved away to uni and I went to a very rural university so there was no women's rugby team and I actually

rejoined rugby in Wales and played a lot of girls down there just before Covid and then I returned back to my homeland of Dumfries and Galloway and joined the Stewartry Sirens where we gained promotion to the Premiership after an unbeaten season. So I was playing Premiership Rugby in Scotland for the last two years. So like I said, me as a digger driver, that's the top flight in Scottish rugby is all amateur, you know. So it's just a sport where it grips you and if it wasn't for rugby and going out training Tuesdays and Thursdays and playing games on Saturdays and seeing the girls that much a week, I don't think I would be the same person I am today if I hadn't

got into this sport. So I all ought to rugby. So the ramifications in a positive way go across your life. Yes, 100% from working with new people to seeing differences and being able to overcome them as I'll say from being in within that rugby environment. I understand. Let's go to Kate in England. England, Kate, perhaps you're the happiest woman on my panel here today. Six Nations going rather well. Would that be a fair characterisation? I would say that's an excellent characterisation. I think England, we're currently on track for our seventh consecutive Six Nations title. It is very easy to be an England fan when out of the last 54 games we've only lost one, but importantly the one that we did lose was the final in 2022 against New Zealand. So although England are on track for what could be a record year, which will have incredible ramifications, not just for the international sport, but also for the rest of us at grassroots.

And we're seeing them test their squad depth. You know, we've got head coach making 13 changes in a 15-woman squad for the clash against Wales. And even in some cases, we've been seeing star players like Ellie Kildum put on the bench to start with, which I think, as Betty said, you know, with Scotland, they may not have the depth of squad. So when there are injuries pulled in, they don't necessarily have the sort of cavalry to back them up afterwards. You know, we were talking about complacency just a little earlier with the former Prime Minister Theresa May.

But I'm wondering, is there a complacency with England women's rugby and or does it ever get boring to have that dominance? It's being a dominant dominant team is always very, very nice to watch as a fan. But they aren't impervious to mistake and no team will ever go unbeaten forever, I think. You've got a lot of younger and newer players being brought into the squad like the likes of Abby Burton, who scored two tries in her in her debut against way. Sorry, in our last game. But I do feel like and this may make me unpopular in the England fan community that England could do with a loss before the World Cup. Controversial. Former Captain

Marley Packer previously said when they did lose the last World Cup that maybe if they'd learnt what it felt like to lose in a white shirt, it may have turned out differently. But equally another player, Claudie MacDonald, has said that that's not necessarily an opinion that needs to be heard because it's not like they aren't being tested on the pitch in the last two games against both Ireland and Wales. England conceded the first tries, so they are going behind in the first half of a match. We almost saw Canada beat them in the last WXV Championship and England were going behind. And for a team where you have got players who have got 50 caps, 60 caps,

a lot of them don't know what it feels like to lose in that white shirt and I would hate to see a repeat of 2022 when the first time they do experience that is on the biggest match that they could potentially be playing of their careers. Well, we are going to continue following it. I want to thank Kate in Dorthoote and Ailba in County Gilder, Charlotte, our Welsh fan, and also Betty, who was joining us from her digger in Scotland. It's going to be I won't watch the games in the same way. Now, after meeting the four of you, I'll be thinking of your passion and your analysis as we go through the next few games and also as the Women's Rugby World Cup comes up in August. It's kind of end of August through to the

end of September. One more. Here's Nick. I love Women's Rugby because it has all the values and skills of the men's game, without the unnecessary violence there has to be a monetary power and a televised evenness whether at club or test level and you can of course follow all the Six Nations action across the BBC and also on BBC Sport 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. Now at age 13 Roxy was coerced into sending nudes online by an older boy at her school. What followed was years of shame and struggles with her mental health. But now, almost 10 years later, Roxy is working to create a space for young people to share

their experiences without fear and without judgement. Her campaign is called Behind Our Screens. Joining Roxy today in the studio is her mother Gay. Together they wrote about this really difficult experience that they went through. It was their memoir, When You Lose It, that was published in 2022. Very happy to welcome both of you to the studio. Welcome, Roxy. Welcome, Gay. Good morning, Oola. Well, Roxy, maybe I'll start with you,

if you're OK, bringing us back to when you were 13, I think so young. What was happening in your world at that time? I think it was quite a classic. Like I, I was I started a new school and I just wanted to fit in. And, you know, I was feeling a bit older than I actually was. And I want to be treated like an adult. And so when this guy said started showing me attention, I was incredibly flattered and I just wanted to fit in. And so he was able to, he was very subtle, but he was able to pressure me and coerce me into sending photos.

Yes, but it escalated from there. Mm-hmm. Yeah, he shared those photos with his friend who was also 17, who then used them to blackmail me into sending whatever he wanted with the threat that otherwise he would send them all around the school. So heartbreaking for a little girl. I'm sure you must have great compassion for that 13 year old now. I do now and I now use the word blackmail but at the time it didn't feel like that at all. It felt like it was completely my fault that I'd ruined my life. I'd done the thing that I knew I wasn't supposed to do and I didn't see a way out.

Gay, you had no idea what Roxy was going through at that time and there is this heartbreaking account of Roxy trying to tell you in her roundabout way what was going on. Can you tell us that story and also how you responded? Yeah, Roxy said that she had an idea to write a story about a girl who'd sent photos. And you are a novelist? I am a novelist and my parental overreaction went into slight panic mode which was don't send, don't send, only stupid people send. That would not be a good idea for a book, because what I was trying to get across was in under no circumstances should that happen. I at that moment basically broke communication with Rox because she quite rightly thought,

I can't tell her now, I can't tell her now because mum's just said only stupid people do that and Roxy is far from stupid. She's a really smart kid I was trying to just Make sure she knew not to do it. What do you remember of that time Roxy? I was just stuck this I These guys completely owned me from the moment I sent that first photo and And I did feel like it was all my fault and I didn't help that that's I didn't bridge that gap I couldn't pull her up out of that place

Of course it was unbeknownst to you if that Roxy was going through this beyond my comprehension, of course But for you, of course, you're going to your mum in this Kind of way trying to pull her in I suppose or to tell mum in this kind of way trying to pull her in, I suppose, or to tell her in some roundabout way. Yeah, I was trying to say in a way that I thought she could relate to you because obviously, you know, you didn't grow up online. And we always speak about the fact that, you know, you'd always said, you know, don't drink, don't do drugs, but if you get into a really bad situation, call me and I will no questions asked get you out of that situation. But it

wasn't the same with online stuff. Yeah, because you didn't they just wasn't that understanding. If we take a moment for 13 year old Roxy, it was an incredibly smart way of trying to broach the subject as saying why don't we write this book about I mean it really was when you think of it that way. But I mean I was very desperate by that point. I think you wrote this story, When You Lose It, as I mentioned, about what happened. And you talk about that as a very healing process, writing that book together. Until we wrote it, I actually had no idea what Roxy had really gone through.

So... But you just wrote it a few years ago. Yeah. Because Roxy couldn't speak about it. And a little bit goes back to the... People say don't send news. We'd never been told not to ask, that for the kids not to ask. So the onus was very much on Rox and the responsibility as her mother.

So yeah, we tried to talk about it. It ended in an argument because I didn't understand what she'd been through. And so Roxie wrote to me what had happened. And I wrote back to her about what it was like trying to help her through her mental health breakdown. Because it was a mental health breakdown after all of this, a lot of struggles really, which the catalyst was from that point in school at 13, sending nudes and getting deeper and deeper into something that you felt ashamed about.

Yeah, and then the photos were spread all around my school. Everyone had them, the bullying was very intense. And also the thing is that I did believe that this was all my fault, so I started self-harming as kind of a way to punish myself. My mental health spiralled, I was hospitalized with a psychotic episode. And that was all obviously awful, but really the worst part for me is the fact that I then spent the next few years feeling completely alone, so ashamed, like I was the only person in the world who'd managed to mess up this

badly. And really I just felt disgusting, like I couldn't say it out loud to my parents. I couldn't even really look in the mirror. Like it was really all-consuming and to be honest, that is why I've started this campaign is because That's such a waste of time that I spent feeling ashamed and alone and let's talk about that I do just want to let people know if You know, you're listening to this and you've been affected by some of these issues you can go to the BBC's action line for help and support but your campaign is called Behind Our Screens. As I look through it there are testimonials that you have received from

young people about what they went through so you're very much not alone. Do you want to tell us a little bit of some of the stories that perhaps you have seen or that stood out to you? Yeah, I mean, to be honest, every testimony that comes through offers a unique take on something. And I think, oh, I hadn't thought about it like that. Whether it's like the way that someone is using their phones to avoid their kind of inner turmoil and inner thoughts that are just too hard to think about. It's just like having a numbing device in your pocket or from young girls who were receiving unsolicited dick pics when they were 13 and

it was funny. It was like a friendship thing and it was funny and now looking back they're like that was so messed up. And I'll just reiterate with dick pics, this is when people send photographs off penises to, in this particular case, young girls, you say. Yeah, and young boys. And young boys. I think with this, because with your story, you were asked to send nudes by this older boy.

And the part you're talking about, parents often say just don't do it, instead of the line of don't ask for it. Do you want to speak about that a little bit? Yeah, yeah, that it was definitely one, it's not just, you know, parents say that, but also teachers said it to us. And that's one of the reasons why I think it's so important to have this platform for young people's real experiences so that the messaging in schools and the messaging from parents is directly informed by the real experiences that young people are having. So there was this huge gap between me and my mom and that gap stayed there for years and years and what I'm

trying to do is help bridge that gap by giving young people a way to like a platform to amplify their voices. And for parents to be able to understand what life is like for young people now. I don't know. What do you think they should know, Gay? I mean, there may be parents that may suspect or be going through it. When I was told Roxy was sending photos to boys, and that's how it was put to me, I went to C-ops, which is child exploitation online protection website, which seemed so out of my comfort. It just didn't apply to me and us. And then there were other people saying it's just 21st century flirting. Inside those two extremes, a place like behind our

screens exists. The campaign. Yeah so that we can read other people's experiences and piece together that puzzle so that we understand what our children are actually facing every day. So what needs to happen? I know you don't agree with banning phones all together Roxy, you don't think that's going to work. I I think that Everyone's situations are so nuanced. You need to work out exactly what young people are going through every day and Keeping up with that really really like all the time

Before we make huge decisions like that. So but how can they because you've talked about I don't know whether you were close before this particular incident with your mom, like when you were 10, 11, 12, 13, if that gap is there, and if the parents or the teachers are really out of the loop, right, that they don't really know what's going on behind the screens of younger people, how do you make them aware? Or how, you know what I mean, how can that happen? I mean by giving young people the space to talk about this stuff openly without this huge blanket of shame that keeps everyone very silent and also without the fear. Like what we were speaking about

lots of the testimonies that come through are saying that they wouldn't go to their parents about things they'd seen that made them uncomfortable online because they were worried that their parents would take their phones away as a punishment and just freak out. So there is that gap. But I wish that we had just sat down and talked about the shame and the validation and all of those elements rather than just the kind of nudes online safety stuff that doesn't really apply. Yeah and the online safety is actually their lives, it's not online. It is just their lives. I think that's such an interesting point right? There's two things here, the shift that you say about

don't send nudes to, don't ask for nudes. You can talk about whether that message is getting through but the other that is not an online safety, it's just safety. It's just safety. It's just your life. There's no separation between the online offline. And the children are not protected. They need more protection than there is currently in place. I mean there is a lot taking place with the online safety bill for example. This year platforms will be required to implement measures to reduce risks. Other services are used for, for example, social media companies to enforce age limits consistently, talks about assess any risk to children using their platforms, make sure they have age-appropriate

experiences, are shielded from harmful content. I'd be curious for somebody who's in the trenches, Roxy, do you think things like that make a difference? Yes, of course it's like it makes a difference and stuff in the right direction. I just I hope that the legislation, the regulation on this stuff as well as the education in schools becomes more agile and becomes more of like there needs to be this kind of constant feedback loop where this stuff is informed directly by the experiences, the real experiences young people that are changing so rapidly. Yes, and I'd be curious for your thoughts in the past decade, whether you feel that Don't Send Nudes, not the Don't Send Nudes, forgive me, Don't Ask for Nudes message has got through at all or are you perhaps getting to the age that you don't know what's going on with 13 year olds?

Well I speak in schools so I am very lucky that I get to learn from the kids that I speak to's experiences. And that was one of the reasons I started the campaign, is because I was kind of blown away by what they were saying. And I didn't really, like, even, I'm only 22 and I was not understanding fully. And one of the things that was raised was that don't ask, don't send, split. And no, they were saying that the focus was very much still on don't send, don't send nudes.

But then I also had, you know, really young boys saying that they thought that they genuinely had been led to believe that asking for photos was how you started a relationship. And that's heartbreaking, which is why it's so important to kind of actually have these conversations really honestly without that shame, because that's not, it's's just yeah. Where do you think that comes from and I will let you go after this but that that that young boy for example where do you think he got that information? I have no idea which is why I want to give this platform to young people because it's those insights that are so important. Really good to have you both in thank you very much for sharing your experience with us and that

is Roxy Longworth and her mum, Kay, and they wrote the memoir a couple of years ago, When You Lose It, but her campaign right now is behind our screens, which you can find online. Thanks for all your messages that are coming in. A little bit of rugby. Let's see. My son's school has two international rugby players, has two, excuse me, has two international rugby players, women as rugby teachers. We have been a few times to watch them play in their league, they're in the finals, and for the boys it's completely normal for women and men to play rugby and they're super proud of their teachers.

I'm a girls head coach at Chessham Rugby Club. Our club has had a women's team here for 35 years, it's nearly 50-50 male-female. Our girls section is growing rapidly. Women's rugby is much better to watch the men's. We are hoping the Women's World Cup will encourage more girls females to try rugby. It's the only sport that has a position for everyone. 84844. Rugby fans united on women's hour. Right, now this next item it's not gonna hurt but it may be a little bit uncomfortable. Speculum. A history of women's bodies through one object, is currently a project tracing the cultural history of the vaginal speculum created by Dr. Shima Tariq,

consulted in HIV and sexual health in London with over 25 years of experience in the NHS. We think of that speculum as gynaecological examinations, but what can it tell us about the female body in society? Dr. Shima is here. She's also a principal research fellow at University College London's Institute for Global Health and just announced this morning. Congratulations. One of the six winners of the 2025 Welcome Collection Nonfiction Awards in partnership with the literary agency Spread the Word.

So we've just about five minutes, Shima. Tell me a little bit about why you decided to focus on this item that can kind of make us feel a little bit uncomfortable. Thanks, Nuala. I think because of the face you just made that people can't see. So basically whenever you talk, I'm sure when you talk to your friends and certainly when I talk to patients, as soon as you mention the word speculum, people wince and squeeze their legs. Yes. It's a ubiquitous object.

Any of us who have a cervix have experienced a speculum examination. I've done about 10,000 at a conservative estimate over my career. And we kind of accept that this is just how it is. And over the past year, I've been thinking, well, how did the speculum come to look like this? And actually, it's been looking like this for 2000 years. So not a lot of innovation. Not a lot of innovation. And what does that say about people's attitudes to women's bodies? So what I want to do, I mean, we've all got a story to tell about the Speculum, and now

I want to tell its story. What should we know? You say 2000 years ago, is there some sort of relic or history of it that it was around at that time? Yeah, so we know there's collections that have Roman and Greek speculums from 2,000 years ago and it's astonishing. They look so similar to the speculum that we use now. And I guess my questions are, well, why has it not changed? And we know that there are some amazing female tech entrepreneurs who are developing really exciting new ways of examining women's bodies. But why isn't that getting taken up by medicine? And again, what does that say about attitudes

to female bodies? And your conclusion? Well the conclusion is always patriarchy, isn't it? But I think it's going to be more complex than that. So hopefully in this book, I get a chance to really engage with that and engage with the histories of the Speculum, including histories of abuse. So something that some of your listeners will be aware of is that the Speculum was redesigned in the mid 19th century by someone called J Marion Sims who used it to experiment on enslaved women without their consent. So there's

this really dark history and a movement to rename the so-called Sims speculum, the Lucy speculum, in honor of the enslaved women who experienced this medical abuse. How interesting. Is there a future? I know we've moved to plastic speculums at times which can be more comfortable. Any other great innovations perhaps ready to come? I mean, Nula, are they comfortable really? No, I'm talking about comfortable is all relative. It is relative. It was a move in the right direction, yes, there's some amazing technology. There's a company in Silicon Valley who've developed an ergonomic speculum. There's a team at King's College who have pioneered self

examination with a speculum. Oh, I don't know about that. And there's also a company called Day who are using tampon-like objects for diagnosis. So I think that and all of these companies are headed up by women because women want change. You mentioned 10,000 speculum investigations in your career in my last 20 seconds or so. Do most patients come forward with a kind of uncomfortable, wincing face on them?

Yes, I think that's fair to say, which is why we need this book. Shiva, congratulations. Thank you so much for coming into our studio. We're looking forward to reading your book when you're finished. Do come back and let us know how you got on another book. The fabulous Irish novelist, Edna O'Brien, we're going to be speaking to documentary director Sinead O'Shea about this film she has made about the woman who said, always be dazzled, which let me tell you Edna O'Brien does in bucket loads. We're going to talk all about her. Also discussing infidelity and the

impact that can have on children throughout their lives. So I do hope you will join me again tomorrow for all the conversations. 10 a.m. Radio 4, Woman's Hour. I'll see you here. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm David Dimbleby and from the History Podcast and BBC Radio 4, this is Invisible Hands, the story of the free market revolution. The free market isn't solving the problem of homelessness. Classic liberal values of free speech, free enterprise, free markets. A hidden force that changed Britain forever. Popular capitalism is a crusade.

And the invisible hands that shaped it. I thought I was a conservative. I thought I was a conservative. There's a massive schism between those who believe in the continuity of our society and those who wish to destroy it. Listen to Invisible Hands on BBC Science now.