Woman's Hour - BBC 100 - Kim Moore poem with women's voices, Auntie Beeb with Mel Giedroyc, former MP Anne Milton on Gavin Williamson

Episode Date: November 14, 2022

Today it is 100 years since the BBC began broadcasting on radio. To celebrate that centenary, we have commissioned a poem by Kim Moore and created a soundscape to show how much women’s lives, and the noises that surround them, have changed - using BBC archive from the 1920s right through to the present day. We also ask why did the BBC get its nickname ‘Auntie’? And what kind of aunt would she be? To mark 100 years since the BBC started daily radio broadcasts, Emma Barnett is joined by television presenter and comedian Mel Giedroyc and historian of the BBC Professor Jean Seaton.Sir Gavin Williamson resigned from the cabinet last week following allegations of bullying; the Labour MP Charlotte Nichols has claimed there is a "whisper list" of 40 politicians to never accept a drink from or be alone with; and claims have emerged over the weekend that civil servants at the Ministry of Justice were offered “respite or a route out” when Deputy Prime Minister Dominic Raab was reappointed last month. Emma asks Anne Milton, the former deputy chief whip who has accused Gavin Williamson of subjecting MPs to “unethical and immoral behaviour" - whether we can infer a 'blokeish' culture in politics. We also hear from Isabel Hardman, Assistant Editor at the Spectator.Anna Sorokin was born to an ordinary family in Moscow, before moving to Germany as a teenager. But upon arriving in New York, she transformed herself into Anna Delvey, a German multimillionaire heiress with a trust fund in Europe. She used this persona to lead a lavish lifestyle and conned friends, big banks and hotels into thinking that her fortune could cover the luxury she desired. But it was all a con. She was found guilty in 2019 of theft of services and grand larceny, having scammed more than $200,000 (£145,000) and spent almost four years in jail. In her first radio interview since being released, Anna Delvey joins Emma.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. And what a day to be talking to you on the radio, the wireless, the device in your ears, whatever you like to call it. Today does mark the day that the BBC started daily broadcasts a hundred years ago. And when you think of a hundred years of the BBC, it's radio. That's it. That's all it was. None of this TV or internet malarkey, just the good old wireless or the friend in your ear, as I like to

refer to it. On the 14th of November 1922, then the very first programme was a news bulletin at 6pm sharp, swiftly followed by a weather forecast. Both were read by the newly minted director of programmes, Arthur Burrows. But here's my favourite bit. He read the news twice, once fast and then slowly, so the very first listeners could write in and say which they understood with greater ease. So there you go. I'm not going to do things twice today, I promise. And while that's utterly charming, it's also a sign of how foreign this act of broadcast communication was. But to mark this day here on Woman's Hour, we have a real treat for your ears

in the form of a specially commissioned poem and a smorgasbord of women's voices on air through the century. We also have a historian on hand to help put this day into perspective from a female point of view. And the lovely presenter and comedian Mel Gedroich is going to be here to reflect on one of the funny nicknames people have called the BBC over the years, auntie. We'll get to the bottom of that, of course, but over to you. It's a great opportunity, we thought, to talk about aunties, blood ones or otherwise. What role aunties have played in your life? I have to say, growing up in Manchester, everyone was an auntie. I was introduced to my mum's friends or the older women around me as an auntie. Are you one? Are you a good one? Do you like to be a naughty one?

Do you have a favourite one? Tell me what comes to mind with the word aunt or auntie. And auntie, of course, referring to the BBC in this context, and we'll find out the history of that. But I'd like to hear some of the stories and history of aunts or aunties in your life. You can text me here at Woman's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged your standard rate. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour. Or get in touch via the website, send an email, or a WhatsApp message or voice note with a different number, 03 700 100 444. Also on today's programme, Anne Milton,

the woman described as dealing the final blow to the first Cabinet Secretary to resign from Rishi Sunak's government. That happened last week. Well, seven days on, what has changed? If anything, more reports over the weekend about conduct of MPs, of cabinet ministers, no less, in this government. Rishi Sunak trying to make his case abroad today

for the type of government he runs. What about domestically? And Anna Delvey, as you may know her, the so-called fake heiress whose financial scam and imprisonment was made into a Netflix series, is out of prison. And she joins me for her first radio interview. So now, for that special audio treat to kickstart the programme today, it is 100 years since the BBC began those daily live broadcasts on radio. To mark that centenary, we've commissioned a poem

by Kim Moore and created a soundscape to show how much women's lives and the noises that surround them have changed, using BBC archive from the 30s right through to the present day. To take you back to 1922, it had been four years since the suffragettes had successfully campaigned for some women to get the right to vote, provided they were over 30, the composer, Edith Smythe, wrote a march for the women in honour of those suffragettes, and that is where our soundscape begins. Shout, shout, come with the song

Cry with the wind, for the dawn is breaking Do you remember when we still had Ethel Smythe's March of the Women echoing through our lives? When we worked in factories? Well, I started when I was 12, half-time, you know. I worked until I was married. Then I stopped when I had two daughters. My husband was wounded in the war and he couldn't work anymore. He doesn't get a pension with two daughters to bring up. Well, I had to go back into the middle again.

Some of the rooms are dark and hot, some are deafeningly noisy, and some are quiet and light and airy. One of the lightest and brightest must be the Burling and Mending Room. Over 200 girls and women sitting sewing at large desks. The room is so quiet that the girls very often sing at their work. You can probably hear them now. Worked, then slept, then slept to rise and work again. That's all there is for me. Work, eat and sleep. What else is there? If you don't work, you don't eat. I have found it impossible to carry the heavy burden of responsibility.

When we heard a king abdicate the throne for the woman he loved, a voluntary vanishing. A big bane, a lamb bane, leg and shoulder bane, a shoulder's on the hill as cheap as a pound for six today and eight to pound them lovely legs now. Do you remember how our men began disappearing too? Oh, here's a lovely pair of bloomers. Do you remember how our men began disappearing too? War taking them so far away we could no longer hear their voices.

Our songs were air raid sirens and the creak of fallen buildings. If he thinks he can win the war by bombing women and children, he's found a big mistake. I think that the morale of the British people is simply amazing. Four bombs have dropped round them, huge craters there, and they're hounded into bits, and they've sung the whole night through until we told them it was all clear to come out. When they drank tea, pots of tea, gallons of it. Do you remember the endless cups of tea? She used to do me breakfast, you know, fry it, eat it,

and put me a little bit of drip on me cake, pop it together, bah, go me, wah, go. Do you remember dancing? One, two, one, two, pick up those legs, higher, higher, give me something to look at. Do you remember Nancy Astor, like a rattlesnake, walking into Parliament?

To walk up the House of Commons between Arthur Balfour and Lloyd George, both of them who had said they believed in women, but who would rather have had a rattlesnake in the House than me at that time they all felt that way it was really very alarming and you know sometimes i would sit five hours in that house rather than get out of my seat and walk down but i knew what really kept me going i was an ardent feminist and those days of being on our hands and knees doing the step with donkey stones. The cry ragbone donkey stone, it's a cry that's echoed down the cobbled back alleys of the north terrace cottages for as long as anyone can remember. The point is that the traditional stone front doorstep is disappearing by the thousand. I used to do mine every morning. I used to do it sometimes at seven o'clock and sometimes at nine but always every morning and i used to

stone everything like the world and if i had to do my time all again i'd do the same again now there's one other controversial point why don't you have women to read the news frankly no there's no doubt that a great many people would like it but a great many would not. This is a BBC home and forces program. Or when we heard a woman read the news and thought our time had come. Yes I once had a chap he started getting out of me arm you know. I thought now then, starting. Do you remember getting caught and then the freedom of the pill? Of course it was quite the usual thing it was almost a convention that as soon as you were caught, you jumped down eight stairs to bring on an abortion. And if the husband was a good husband,

oh, he's a good husband, he doesn't often trouble me. Yes, they used to say that. I remember once a woman saying to me she daren't even be civil to her husband because it meant another kid. Yeah. They had to repulse them. Do you remember Dagenham?

We are on strike until the 27th of June. All of you? All of us. All the machinists, anyway. So no car seat covers for Fords? No, not from us, anyway. Well, just what are you striking about? And that interviewer, his voice made entirely of air and querulous and strange, asking, and the women replying, as far as a year.

When I heard it on the radio this morning, I said, hurrah, hurrah, hurrah for the girls. They are magnificent. The thing that most of us on estates are very grateful for, I think, is the hot and cold water. The next thing is the good drying space in our garden for the washing. The sheets get the full sun and go on the bed smelling much sweeter than those dried in a yard and don't get dirty through blowing against yard walls. Do you remember the arrival of the tumble dryer and the microwave?

Do you remember Margaret Thatcher and her I don't like strident women? Where there is discord, may we bring harmony. Where there is error, may we bring truth. Where there is doubt, may we bring harmony where there is error may we bring truth where there is doubt may we bring faith and where there's despair may we bring hope i mean before we used to be at home kitchen sink what have you tea on table when they're coming from work one thing and other like you know now we get ready to go on picket lines i can't even tell you last time i made a bed i know that it's true that what's happened happened to Blair's babes and their political hopes and dreams? Do you remember the Spice Girls asking us what we want?

What we really, really want? And then telling us and how we almost believed them? Do you remember the towers falling even as people said they would never fall? We heard a big bang and then we saw smoke coming out Do you remember the towers falling even as people said they would never fall? We heard a big bang and then we saw smoke coming out and everybody started running out and we saw the plane on the other side of the building and there was smoke everywhere and people were jumping out the windows. Do you remember what he said?

I just started kissing them. It's like a magnet. You just kiss them. I don't even know what. And when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab them by. Grab them by the p***. I like to grab women by the pussy. I said it, I was wrong, and I apologize. Women of America, me and my charity, Steve, women, are going to roar! Do you remember marching, our homemade banners, our pink pussy hats, the singing? Do you remember that bright spring, the blue skies and the death toll rising and the sound of clapping?

How hollow it became. How some of us worked from home with children on our knees. How some of us had no work at all. I'm saying bingo, bingo, la. Do you remember longing? Do you remember yearning? I just want to have a coffee with my mates because I know that being on my own has driven me slightly mad. Do you remember smiling at a stranger?

And they look to you and they ask you, do you think I'm going to get through this? And you can't reassure them really because you just don't know. How some of us were lonely and some of us were trapped. How some of us were empty. That some of us were full of light and maybe all of us were changed. Wow, that was beautiful.

Wonderful to hear all those voices and moments in so many different ways. The poet Kim Moore, thank you to her. And just to say, I talked about the March of the Women from the composer. It's Ethel Smythe that you heard at the beginning there. And what an amazing soundscape, as you can call it. Smorgasbord of audio of women through the last century to be able to hear on today. The centenary of live daily radio broadcasts beginning on the BBC. And if you've ever wondered how this programme is made to mark this day,

we've recorded a behind the scenes glimpse of how we make Women's Hour, showing you everything from the studio to our office, to the team, to all the people that make it happen, and some of those discussions, which you can imagine get quite heated at times about how we're going to cover what we cover. So that's on our Instagram, on our Twitter, on the website, so you can check that out. And of course, one of those discussions has been today about politics, because the Prime Minister began his time in office with a promise to preside over a government of integrity, professionalism and accountability, to directly quote Rishi Sunak. Mr Sunak today is trying to advance his case internationally at a meeting of the G20 countries in Bali. But how has his plan for leadership gone down domestically so far? After a pretty bumpy time, it's safe to say for the Conservatives.

Sir Gavin Williamson resigned from the Cabinet last week following allegations of bullying. The Labour MP Charlotte Nicholls has claimed there is a whisper list of 40 politicians to never accept a drink from or be alone with. And claims have emerged over the weekend that civil servants at the Ministry of Justice were offered respite or a route out when Dominic Raab, the Deputy Prime Minister and the Lord Chancellor, was reappointed last month amid concerns that some were still traumatised

by his behaviour during his first stint there. I'll be speaking to Anne Milton shortly, the former Conservative MP and former Deputy Chief Whip, who has accused Gavin Williamson of subjecting MPs to unethical and immoral behaviour. But first, let's go to Isabel Hardman, Assistant Editor at The Spectator. Good morning, Isabel. Hello, thanks for having me on. The allegations against Gavin Williamson led to him resigning, although he has refuted them, as I understand it. Have there been any developments on that front?

And how are you reading the first few weeks of Rishi Sunak's promise to have this government of integrity? Well, I mean, I think Rishi Sunak talks a good game on integrity, but I don't really see any actions to back that up. So he hasn't appointed an ethics advisor. Obviously, we've had the appointment and then the resignation of Gavin Williamson, none of which Rishi Sunak seemed to have very much to do with. I mean, when Gavin Williamson was still in post as a minister, Downing Street kept calling the allegations against him serious, but then said that the prime minister had full confidence in him, almost as though the two

were completely separate things. And it was just a random coincidence that Gavin Williamson's name kept coming up. And then once he had resigned, I thought it was really striking at Prime Minister's questions last week that Rishi Sunak kept saying this is a government with integrity. That's why the minister was right to resign. But at no point did Rishi Sunak suggest that he was the one with authority who was enforcing any of this integrity. Gavin Williamson chose to resign. The PM didn't push him. And so it was really sort of still at the gift of the person who the allegations had been made against, rather than somebody who claims to be leading a different government

to that which was run by Boris Johnson. In his resignation letter, Sir Gavin Williamson said, there is an ongoing complaints process concerning text messages I sent a colleague. I'm complying with this process and I have apologised to the recipient for those messages. And that was reported to have been a former very brief chief whip, Wendy Morton. Sir Gavin also says he refutes the characterisation of his conduct, but that the claims were becoming a distraction. I mentioned over the weekend reports about Dominic Raab, of course, the deputy prime minister.

A spokesman for Mr Raab said Dominic has high standards, works hard, expects a lot from his team as well as himself. He has worked well with officials to drive the government's agenda across Whitehall in multiple government departments and always acts with the utmost professionalism. There was also this report of him throwing tomatoes across a desk yes uh suggesting that he was exasperated in a meeting and um through a bag um of salad containing tomatoes uh not at anyone i don't think again this is something that's denied but i think it's interesting with both gavin williamson and dominic rob that initial stories have given other people who've worked with them a little bit of space to say how they feel about their experiences of working with them too and to a certain extent I think one of the things I found really striking is the way in which people have taken a step back and said

oh maybe this behaviour from this minister or that behaviour from that whip wasn't professional or wasn't normal and it's very easy within a culture like Westminster, which is so different to the outside world. We have people with swords walking around the whole time. So it feels very far removed from reality. For people to start to feel that certain behaviour is normal and to forget that it wouldn't happen in another workplace. And that's one of the problems, is that actually cultures can grow up where things are entirely normalised. It's not just within

Westminster. I'm doing quite a lot of work on the NHS at the moment. There's a lot of bullying within the NHS. I was talking to somebody last week who said, well, you know, one man's performance management is another man's bullying. And you can see how bullying becomes normalised within a culture of performance management in inverted commas. Yeah, I mean, you've written a book that's resonated with people called Why We Get the Wrong Politicians. And we actually talked about this last week on the programme with our listeners getting very involved about, you know, who would want to be one and who's drawn to this as a culture. But bringing it back to Rishi Sunak, I find it very striking when you were going back to the Boris Johnson era, is it that different? And that's what's being questioned. You know,

there was Liz Truss very briefly as well in the middle. And I think it's worth just trying to put that all in context as to whether this is now a culture that's to do with this government, or is it widespread? How do you read that? I mean, I think it's a bit of both. I think there is a widespread cultural problem within Westminster, within all the parties where bullying behaviour and harassment have been normalised.

And then when the structures of the complaint systems within the parties basically allow for complaints not to be taken seriously or to be weaponised against individuals in a way that is wholly inappropriate. And I think you can see that in all the parties. I think specific to the Conservatives, they have become very complacent about their behaviour. I mean, when Liz Truss was asked about this during the leadership contest, and then during her brief tenure as Prime Minister, she said that she wouldn't need an ethics advisor because she always acts with integrity. And that's a bit like me saying, you know, I don't need a stopwatch

because I know I can run a marathon in two hours. I mean, you know, I'm not the judge of that. And I think that's the issue here is that sort of complacency that being in power and having authority for a long time can breed that you sort of think you can be your own authority as opposed to needing to have checks and balances on you from outside and that you know scrutiny whether it's of legislation or of your behaviour is an interference and encumbrance rather than something that can actually really benefit you personally because you're kept honest and your policies are tested properly. And this whisper list that's been talked of by the Labour MP Charlotte Nicholls,

claiming 40 politicians to never accept a drink from or be alone with. I mean, you tell me that an inference there that you could take is, is this about men? Is this an issue around the masculine culture still of Westminster? I don't know if she's talking about all the members of that list. I don't know anything about that list at all. Are men, but there is an inference there you could take. Yeah, I mean, I don't know that list by name, but I certainly recognise the sort of the conversations that women have in the ladies' toilets about, oh, you know, he did this to me, I wouldn't go too near him, that sort of thing. And, you know, we definitely all have politicians who were probably more on our guard around. And

some politicians actually who certain female journalists in particular refuse to talk to, because we know about their behaviour towards other women. And we just, you know, I'd say we probably have quite a high bar of who we have to talk to, because there are quite a lot of people within Westminster who do behave unacceptably. But there are some people who behave so unacceptably that, for instance, I, you know, I've walked away from certain people at parties because I haven't want to be anywhere near them or to sort of, you know, to have a conversation with them or have to be civil to them. So, you know, I suppose within the kind of catacombs of Westminster, there are names who are well known, but I don't know about this sort of official whisper list. It hasn't been whispered to me anyway, but I probably recognise most of the names on it. You are a woman in the know, so we always like to ask what's been said, but also about that culture and try and get a sense of it. And under the new Prime Minister, Isabel Hardman, Assistant Editor at The Spectator.

Thank you. Well, I'm joined now by Anne Milton, the former Conservative MP for Guildford for 15 years, who hit the headlines last week during the row over alleged bullying by Sir Gavin Williamson. As I say, the first Cabinet Minister to resign under Rishi Sunak. She's the woman described as dealing the final blow to Sir Gavin's latest stint in Cabinet.

He's been removed twice before. She worked under him as his deputy in the Whip's office when he was the Chief Whip, aka the person responsible for party discipline. Anne Milton, good morning. Good morning, Emma. Good morning. We, just for some of our listeners who may not have followed what you said, I mean, you did say about Sir Gavin Williamson, before we go to kind of the bigger culture here, that he behaved in an unethical and immoral way. He described his behaviour as threatening and intimidating, and that he used salacious gossip as leverage against MPs, including a few incidents where Sir Gavin would use people's sexual preferences or other sensitive issues against them. Why did you want to talk out and speak out about this?

I felt it was the time, Emma, there'd been a space of stories over the weekend. And I didn't speak out at the time because Gavin Williams stopped being chief whip. And in fact, swiftly went on to become secretary of state for defence. And my complaints about Gavin Williamson were all about the way he operated as Chief Whip. But I felt it was time. And in terms of what you think should happen or has happened since, what's your view of that? Because he has resigned. He has resigned. And I hope that there will be some sort of investigation. I think my concern about these things is these investigations drag on for ages, and that is not appropriate.

I think, you know, listening to Isabel talking about women journalists not being prepared to spend time with some politicians, it's really shocking. I mean, we should all be very shocked about this. It's really important that this culture finishes. And I actually think that Rishi Sunak is fundamentally a good man trying to do good. But he's got to be in a position where he listens to the truth from other people. If he really wants to stand by the principles he's spelt out, he's got to be receptive and go out and hear what is obviously rumoured in Westminster and make sure that his government is behaving

to the highest possible standards. Do you think it would be possible for him not to have been aware of some of what you have said and others have said about Gavin Williamson before appointing him? Specifically, what I talked about is it is possible that he wasn't aware of that. Yes, I do believe it's the case. He will have known probably that Gavin Williamson had a bit of a reputation. But I think one of the dangers of the culture in Westminster is everybody shrugs their shoulders and says, well, you know what politics is like. And it can almost feel like a bit of a joke.

The reality of using information to intimidate or bully people is really awful and has to be stamped on. And the allegations, which I read the statement out to do with Dominic Raab and his response, but the allegations over the weekend about Dominic Raab, how does that fit into your view? I mean, I have no evidence of anything about Dominic Raab one way or the other. And I know he's disputed those accusations. I think the really important thing is, is that politics and Westminster is not

an exception. It's got to behave in the same way that any other workplace behaves. And sure, everybody gets frustrated in their jobs, everybody gets exasperated, but it's never an excuse for bad behaviour. I know that you're concerned about this idea of a bloke-ish culture being responsible and politics is how politics is. Tell me about that. Yeah, I just, it's always been a sort of excuse. Well, you know what so-and-so is like, you know what politics is like, you know, we work long hours. It's it's not an excuse. And I think it is. I think it's hard to say because I'm now on the outside. Has it got worse? It feels like it got worse, possibly under Boris Johnson, who is a very bloke-ish bloke. You never saw him without an Ivers jacket and a hard hat on.

And I think my biggest fear is this puts off women going into politics because they hear these stories and they say, forget it. There are other jobs that I can do. And we don't want that to happen. We want a functioning democracy and to have a functioning democracy. We have to have leaders who set the highest standards, comply with those standards. We have to have systems that are trusted for reporting things that fall short of the behaviour that we'd expect of leaders. And we also have to make sure that they are dealt with swiftly. I think the long time it takes to address some of the complaints

also acts against the system looking like it wants to clean up its act. I mean, we should also say there are examples of women such as Priti Patel, former Home Secretary. She settled a claim against a senior civil servant after accusations of bullying and creating an atmosphere of fear. She apologised for her behaviour in the past. She said it wasn't the intention. But how do you view that? Is that part of the same culture you're talking about? So the perpetrators aren't always men. I think the trouble is that women, I would always say this, women have a fortune in some ways.

They've got a lot of choices about work and what they do. And I think women are less prepared maybe to put up with it than men. Although I think possibly some of the younger cohort of men would share the view. I mean, you need to look at why people leave politics. We get a lot of stories about what goes in inside. But why did some of those good men and women leave politics? Back to what happens if your MP is found guilty. Let's say your MP is found guilty. In this case, it could be of Sir Gavin Williamson, of what you say he was responsible for,

using, for instance, people's sexuality against them. I say found guilty in the looser sense, not in a criminal sense, but in an investigation. Should you be able to not have him as your MP anymore? Well, I think the difficulty is, is good people sometimes do bad things and bad people sometimes do good things. So his role as constituency MP, which is what you're talking about, is should there be a system for getting rid of somebody like Gavin Williamson, if he conducts his business in his constituency without using any of the things that he's been accused of in government,

then his constituents are probably quite happy with him. It was his behaviour as chief whip that I specifically highlighted. So I think you have to draw a difference between people's behaviour in government and their behaviour as a constituency MP. His constituents might well find him a very good local MP, but that doesn't excuse his behaviour when he was in government. And it means that should he re-enter, there should be question marks about whether he ever re-enters government. Well, yes, I mean, but others would say that they don't think

those two are different. You know, your conduct is your conduct. I mean, I'm also just thinking of Matt Hancock being in the jungle. If he's your constituency MP, he's not missing in action. I mean, you can see where he is, but he's missing as your constituency MP and there's nothing you can do about it. Well, except as a general election when you can cast your vote to get rid of him. No, but right now, the only thing you can do is cast your vote through ITV, whether you want him to eat more anus or not.

You know, that's the reality. I suppose people are very frustrated by what they are able to do when they hear people like yourself make very serious allegations right through to, you know, the former health secretaries on a reality TV show. And I don't know what the latest rules are on recall, but that, you know, recall was introduced. Maybe that needs to be looked at again

to give people an opportunity to get rid of an MP who they feel whose conduct, albeit might be good in the constituency, has fallen short elsewhere. Yes. I mean, do you think just on that, because you're talking about standards, you're talking about public life, do you think it is right for Matt Hancock to have gone out of interest to the jungle? Oh, good heavens. I think it feels a bit tragic, to be honest, if I'm absolutely honest. I think it's a bit of a shame that Matt Hancock felt he needed to do this. If it's about

building his profile, he is in the papers and on the radio almost every single day. So it certainly built his profile. Has it been in a positive or negative sense remains to be seen. I think it was a poor thing for somebody who was a former Secretary of State to do, particularly for health, particularly at this time when the COVID inquiry is going on. I think it was poor to do it. He's talked about potentially raising the profile of dyslexia through it, but you're also not going to be alone in that view, as we did interview an individual who lost their father

through the care home readmission scheme, as it was at the beginning of the pandemic when those with Covid or as it was not yet known were allowed back into care homes and she actually took a judicial review and won against the government and against Matt Hancock. You can catch back up on that interview last week. Just a final thought, I'm aware of the autumn statement, the budget coming on Thursday. I know you resigned from the government and you lost the Conservative whip yourself about how you voted with the European Withdrawal Act.

People may remember you were part of those Conservative rebels. Boris Johnson withdrew the whip from, quite an irony in your case, having been the deputy chief whip, but fiscally perhaps still a Conservative, I presume. I just wanted to ask how you were thinking and feeling about the plans for Thursday's budget as we understand them for the raising of taxes and cutting spending. Some Conservatives are very upset about this.

The people with broader shoulders should bear the brunt. So there should be increases in taxes to protect those who are less able, have got less resources. I think that that is the right thing to do. Anybody with children does not want to see this debt carried by their children. My generation, particularly, you know, I'm over 65, have done very well on the back of a property boom throughout our life. We have a lot, got a lot of unearned wealth in our properties. I think the next generation coming up are not in such a fortunate position. So if nothing else, to do something about intergenerational fairness is really important.

So backing broadly what we've heard to expect on Thursday. There we go. It must have been interesting. I don't know if you could hear our soundscape at the beginning, but interesting to hear Nancy Astor there talking about they'd rather have a rattlesnake than me in the Commons as the first woman to enter. I don't know if that made you smile, Anne.

It did make me smile. Maybe they're pleased to be shot of me. I don't know as well. Well, you didn't have a tarantula in a cage. I hear that was also Gavin Williamson, did you? No, I didn't have a tarantula in a cage. I hear that was also Gavin Williamson, did you? No, I didn't have a tarantula and it says so much. It says so much. Any pets in your office? No.

No, no, no. It's a workplace, Emma. OK, good point, good point. I haven't got one. It's a workplace. Anne Milton, thank you very much for talking to us this morning about the workplace that is Westminster, that is the place that creates the rules for the rest of us. Your messages have been coming in as the BBC marks 100 years since live daily radio bulletins, the first broadcast all being about radio. And the BBC has been referred to as Aunty. We're going to come to this discussion, but your messages on this.

The best Aunty we had was Aunty Mary, my children's childminder for 14 years. She looked after my three children as if they were her own, knitted them bonnets and cardigans and made them the most spectacular birthday cakes and bought them birthday and Christmas presents. We love you lots, Auntie Mary, says the Gush family. And more of your tales of aunties have come in. I'm going to come to those.

I very much promise you that very shortly indeed. But thank you for those messages about aunties and aunts in your life. But you may know my next guest as Anna Sorokin, or perhaps Anna Delvey. Either way, she was born to an ordinary family in Moscow before moving to Germany as a teenager. But upon arriving in New York, she transformed herself into Anna Delvey, a rich German heiress with a trust fund in Europe. She used this persona to lead a lavish lifestyle of holidays and designer clothes, conning friends, banks and hotels into thinking that her fortune could cover the luxury she desired. But it was all a con. She was found guilty in 2019 of theft of services and grand larceny. Having scammed more than $200,000, just shy of 150 grand,

this story was made into a Netflix series, which you may have seen, called Inventing Anna, which carries a playful disclaimer throughout, which says the whole story is completely true, except the parts that are completely made up. Well, I spoke to one of Anna's former friends, Rachel Deloach Williams, early this year. The two met through mutual friends in 2016 and became close, travelling on holiday to Morocco together

the following year. Anna said she would pay for the trip to the luxury resort, but when it came to settling the bill, claimed there was a problem with her credit card. Rachel said she ended up covering $62,000 for the total cost of the holiday. And Anna promised that she'd be paid back, but she never was. Here's Rachel first talking to me about how it unfolded. It began when Anna's cards weren't working outside the hotel and I did offer to cover those costs and she was going to wire me money. So it's kind of like once you're in for a penny, you're in for a pound. And she just kind of kept adding to this quote unquote tab she had with me.

But the hotel itself was something that transpired very differently. I didn't think it was possible for me to agree to loan somebody $62,000. The hotel over the course of the week began pulling Anna aside. And then by the day before we were scheduled to leave, these two managers appeared in the villa. They were not willing to leave the villa, nor would they let us leave the villa until they had a functioning card on file. And then I left before her the next morning. And as soon as I landed, I got a text from Anna saying, the hotel says thank you. And I'll wire you the full amount today so that you have it by Monday.

And she didn't. No, no, no, she didn't. No. And so began months of false promises and misinformation. Rachel Deloach Williams there. It's important to say that Anna was found not guilty in court of stealing that money from Rachel, but that was her account. Anna did spend four years in jail and was released for a month and a half

before being detained by US Immigration and Customs for overstaying her visa. She was released a few weeks ago and is now under house arrest. I spoke to her in her first radio interview since her release and began by asking why she wants to stay in America. I guess I just wanted to correct the whole narrative that's out there and it happened the way it happened. I guess I spent the majority of my adult life in New York and in the States. And it would mean a lot for me to be able to stay. It's like an ideal world. I would love to be free to travel wherever I want, whenever I want to. But that's just not the case for now.

But if I were to leave, I probably will never be able to come back the way the laws currently are. You talk about correcting the narrative. What does that mean? Just the whole narrative that's been talk about correcting the narrative. What does that mean? Just the whole narrative that's been good about me since 2018. My story has been told by pretty much everybody but me. Do you accept, though, the guilt of the theft of services, the amount of money that you had scammed banks, hoteliers and some of your friends out of to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars? Well, my criminal case is still on direct appeal.

So is that a no or you do accept some of it? I definitely accept my responsibility in the events that happened. Yes. So when you talk about correcting the narrative, what's wrong with what people know about you? Because what they know about you is that you scammed people out of money. I think there's so much more out there other than just that. I guess the way they portrayed my personality and my motives and intentions. Yeah, there's a lot out there that's not necessarily true. I mean, I imagine a big part of that is the Netflix programme, which was made about you.

You weren't able to actually keep any of the money for that because you had to pay some of the debts that you owed. Are you saying that particular narrative is inaccurate? What's wrong with it? I mean, it's a dramatized version. It's an article that Jessica, the journalist, wrote for New York Magazine, and that's what's been purchased,

not necessarily my story. So it's somebody else telling the events from the POV. And I guess the majority of the population, they just take it at its face value, like not considering that a lot of the events has been dramatized for entertainment purposes. And that's not a documentary. Trying then to get to grips with that. I spoke to your former friend, Rachel Deloach-Williams on this program. She said she ended up having to pay $62,000 for a holiday to Marrakesh, which she said you would pay for, but then claimed you had problems with your credit card.

She tried to get her money back for months and you ended up only giving her $5,000, promising more would arrive. I recognise there are more details there about this. I should say you were found not guilty of stealing from her, but she describes a pattern of behaviour and how she thought you were friends and she felt duped by you. Do you accept that you did dupe her in any way? It was never my intent to deceive Rachel in any way.

I regret some of the events that happened, but it was never my intent. What was your intent? To pay her back. I assumed some of the things are going, but it was never my intent. What was your intent? To pay her back. I assumed some of the things are going to work out and then they didn't. That was not because I planned for them to happen that way. So when you say things were going to work out, you're talking about the project that you were hoping to launch? That's right. Was there a project? Is there any evidence of this project? Because that's, of course, what you have been found guilty of is getting people, institutions and banks and others to give you money for something that wasn't happening.

Of course, there was a project. I guess the biggest evidence, like right now, there is something that's very similar to what I've been trying to build. I guess it's a proof of concept that my project and what I've been trying to build is visible because somebody else has done pretty much the same thing so it's not like I was streaming out something fantastical no it's just whether you were actually doing it and whether it was happening I suppose what I'm trying to get to and we don't have to go into all the details but you did also say you wanted to correct the narrative is having had the time that you've had in jail do you consider yourself a con artist no I do not consider myself a con artist. The legal definition of fraud in America is an intent to permanently deprive a person of goods or funds, and this just was never my intention.

So I think there's so much proof confirming what my intent actually was. So you didn't intend to do it, but you still did it. So because of the difference of how you felt about it, you don't think you could be viewed or should be viewed as a con artist? I would disagree that I did it. I just did not have the intent to defraud anybody. I mean, the fact that you've been found guilty of theft of services, having scammed more than $200,000, you just spent four years in prison. What do you accept about what happened then well I definitely made some bad choices and I made a lot of mistakes that I regret now it just my intent was never malicious I was trying to build a project and it didn't work out but I never like I was never

planning to steal any money or defraud anybody and I guess anybody who would look into what I was trying to do it's pretty clear so, I accept some of the guilt and responsibility for my actions and decisions that I've made seven years ago and earlier. But you don't accept the characterization of you as a con artist because you say you weren't doing it to harm anyone. That was never my intent. Yes. I would never, ever use that word in self-reference. But you did harm people and you did hurt people. That is true. And I feel sorry for that, yes. How have you arrived at that remorse? Because the judge who enabled your release said he didn't believe that you were remorseful. Is that a change for you? The judge can only make decisions based on a hearing, which lasts one to two hours. So it's pretty hard to arrive at such conclusions

in such short period of time because when you're in jail you are secluded from everything you don't have access to media like regular media social media so it took me actually getting out last year and having access to i don't know twitter instagram regular media and realizing how my story affected everybody just like how it was twisted so it's like I didn't want to be perceived as this person who took advantage of anything. I did not want for my clients to be glamorised, pretty much. But you feel they have been? They definitely have been glamorised, yes.

Do you think you did anything to cultivate that image of glamorising it and the type of life you were living and the amount of money that we're talking about? I'm sure, yes. Just like I'm not perfect. I'm sure I've done a lot of things to do it unwittingly, but it's also a new experience for me and I'm learning to exist in this new reality

so I don't have all the answers. I'm sure I've done a lot of mistakes. So it's just like moving forward, I would love to not be perceived that way. I suppose the big issue that you face with the specific crimes of which you've been convicted is trust, isn't it? About whether people can trust

even anything you're saying to me right now. Well, I leave it up to people. I think a lot of people are willing to give me a second chance and if they don't, I understand. But I suppose the very nature of people having described how they felt duped by you last time, the understand. But I suppose the very nature of people having described how they felt duped by you last time, the criminal justice system here in the UK,

it's meant to be about you being able to be reformed and people learning from mistakes and, as you say, given a second chance. We know that's incredibly hard, but it can be even harder when there has been what there has been in your case, criminal charges that relate to tricking people, to conning people? All I can do is try to prove people wrong. I cannot affect the way people see me, but I can do what's in my power to show them different. And what do you want to do with your life? You've got limitations still, as you talked about, you're not able to easily travel, you're

not allowed to use social media, you're not able to profit from your story because of the rules around that where you are so so what have you got planned i have multiple projects in the works i'm working on my book my podcast i'm working on my art i'm working on my dinner series which will be focusing on social good and some of them causes i'd love to shed light on so yeah i have a lot going on. Even though I'm house arrest, I still can do a lot from home confinement. In terms of your future, you'd like it to be there.

You don't know if you're going to be able to stay easily. And then there are these projects, but you don't know when you're also going to be able to feel free from house arrest. How do you cope with that uncertainty? My life has been nothing but uncertain for the past five years at least. So it's nothing new.

You know, that's a very difficult sort of reality when you are, as you say, trying to rebuild and you're attempting to get people to change their minds about you. I think the way that things are going right now, it's looking promising for me. I mean, obviously I'm aware of what could be the alternative. So, I mean, there are things that can be done in either scenario.

Have you said sorry to Rachel Williams or any of the other people that you had connections with? No, I'm not allowed to reach out to her. I think that's per the conditions or something. Would you like to, if you could? Sure. I mean, I said it in so many interviews. I regret the way things go down. And I think she knows I was never trying to defraud her. I think she admits it in her own book. It was not a great situation. Her words to me were incredibly

different to that effect. That is not what she views or how she said it to me. That won't be the first time she changed her narrative. Well, you've also been accused of changing your narrative several times. So it's a battle of narratives, it seems. But we wanted to hear from you yourself. And to that message of you don't want to glamorise crime, you don't want to glamorise any of the situations you created for yourself or found yourself in, as perhaps you would say,

what would you say to anyone listening about that? How are you trying to get that message across? Well, I feel people should just wait and see what I'm going to do next. I'll try to change people's perception of me for the project I will be pursuing moving forward. And this idea of you as an unreliable narrator, do you think you can prevail with so much that has been written about you and also so much that has been proven about you? I mean, all I can do is try. Nothing is certain. I hope people will give

me a chance and not like going to just blindly subscribe to the narrative that's out there. But I think it's up to me to actually do something about the image of me that's out there right now. So I'm not like really blaming anything or anybody for perceiving me the way they are. Anna Sorokin there. And if you wanted to hear more about her story, you can listen to the Fake Heiress podcast, which is available on BBC Sounds. Now you've been getting in touch with us.

There's a question to ask, I suppose, a hundred years on from the daily live radio bulletins beginning here on the BBC. It's quintessentially Woman's Hour, I think. It's a BBC of she. A hundred years then on, in that time, she has been referred to, either affectionately or less so, you decide, as Aunty or Aunty Beeb or even she.

Brilliant messages coming in about aunts and aunties. I mean, there's one here that's fantastic, saying, I'm a 59-year-old woman from Birmingham. When I was a kid, all my mum's best friends were called Auntie. Auntie Jess was a huge influence on me. She was older than my mum, always there when we needed her. The only woman my father spoke to about politics. She came with a moustache, a library book and the best chats. Formidable role model, a woman who courted no one's favour. Well, where did this nickname come from? And what kind of aunt, if we are one,

are we? Is it a good name? The laughter you could start to hear there, which is very appropriate from the comedian and television presenter Mel Gedroych is joining us now and Professor Jean Seaton, historian and author of Pinkos and Traitors, the BBC and The Nation. A warm welcome to

both of you today. I'm so honoured to be here. 100 years ago today, isn't it? Six o'clock this evening. Jean, let me just start on the nickname. Where does it come from? Do we know? It started in the 1950s when, I mean, it came from, where it came from is a site, but it started in the 1950s around a man man called Henry Fairley wrote a book called The Establishment, one chapter of which was an attack on the BBC because the BBC, you have to remember, he was in way part of the campaign to get ITV,

commercial television, launched. So he was saying that the BBC was old-fashioned, fud duddy, prurient, not up to date, not swinging. So that name for the BBC came from then. But I think the idea that the BBC had aunts and uncles on Children's Hour. So I think there's a really interesting thing to be said about the title Aunt and Uncle, particularly in the 30s to the 50s. But it's interesting that that first... Was an attack.

Was an attack. Yeah. And it was a pejorative. And that a title Auntie, and Mel, I know you've got a take on this, is something that would be negative and would be used as an insult. And the stories about people's aunties that are coming in lovely so good for me it's always been the bb she

always i'm gonna just put that right out there um i was walking along to this interview this morning and um i just thought 1922 and i thought immediately of my two aunts, Aunty Doily. Yes, folks, that was her name. Excellent. Doily and Zizi, two sisters, unmarried, living in London, went through the war in London, both artists. And I just thought how magnificent those aunts were to me. They were great aunts and I absolutely adored them.

And they were sort of, they had that kind of whiff, a whiff of tweed about them. There was a whiff of starch, which I think we all love. We like our boundaries. And I think the BBC has always kind of had that, you know, it gives us our little boundaries and is a little bit starchy at times. And that's good. But yet there's the kind of, there's the fun underneath the tweed. Well, I think that's what we want under the doily. I'm just going to keep going with that.

But I think that's interesting about it being an insult and then how you reinterpret that. Because, of course, there are a lot of pioneering women at the beginning of the BBC. The BBC was set up with women in mind because they were the last tranche of the vote to come online as it were in 27 women audiences were absolutely central to thinking about the bbc not that anybody knew what a program was in 1922 they were still inventing it but um by the third week they're beginning to think of women audiences so i think and they start to employ after the first tranche of young men, mostly out the trenches, the three or four, this is a tiny little thing when it starts,

the next tranche are really formidable women. And women, of course, always, most of whom didn't marry, except for Mary Hamilton, who was married. But women are very good in new spaces before men get to squat in them, rather like frogs. So the next generation of BBC employees in the sort of middle 20s are formidable women.

So women think of women. And then you get things like The Week in Parliament, which comes out in 25, absolutely for women. And that was run by a woman wasn't it run by a woman incredible hilda matheson does this right does their talks gets the great and the good on but underneath her there are a couple of women so i think women start to work in the bbc very early and they have women in mind. The other thing I'd say about Aunty, which I think is quite important, is that in the 1930s, 40s, 50s, I don't want to say it was more

hierarchical because I actually think we live in a very hierarchical age. It's just that we don't see it so much now. But titles were very important. So it was very rude. You didn't use first names. If you listen to BBC broadcasts, Wilfred Pickles always said, it is Mrs Hilda Breakway.

Yeah, I mean, I'd love that to return, quite frankly. And auntie and uncle was what basically you in a family either called your direct blood relation, who wasn't aunt and uncle, but you also called people who were friends of your family your listener from birmingham yes absolutely they were friends and so bbc's aunt and uncle on children's hour were saying we're friends we're close to you we're not mr this and miss mrs that so it's a way of being familiar and it's a way of being familiar and having that link. It's a way of getting you into a warmer, closed group. Uncle Beeb sounds wrong, though, for me.

It's got to be Uncle. Uncle Beeb can't multitask. Auntie Beeb has to do very, very many things. There's a rebrand happening of this, what was meant to be a pejorative label. I mean, aunts are cool, come on. Are you an aunt? I'm an aunt times 18. I've got 18 nieces and nephews.

Oh, my gosh. And what kind of aunt are you? Well, do you know what? I like to think I'm a little bit radical, a little bit cool. You know, the one that gives them the naughty treats. That sounds wrong. I don't mean that. But I think in reality, I'm probably a little bit old school. But I think that's good. And that's why we love Auntie Bee, because she is a little bit old school. But she's also new school. She's everything. It's about values. One of the things that these aunts do is hold values, you know, please and thank you.

Yeah. But they also give you treats. I think there's something, I think there is something which is neither nice nor nasty. I think that the BBC has been, right since 1922, radically brilliant at technological innovation. You know, right the way through the Second World War, right the way through to the iPlayer, right the way through to the moon landings. Well, and it's incredible to think about the first broadcasts and how odd they must have

sounded 100 years ago at six o'clock this evening, which I know we're marking on the wireless, on the radio, whatever you like to call it. Just to your point about being married or not being married, I remember sitting down at the Pleasure last year, you can look this up online if you missed it, on BBC Sounds, which we now have, with Diana Gayford. She was 104 last year for our 75th anniversary of Woman's Hour. So Woman's Hour wasn't there right from the beginning. But she couldn't keep her job once she was married. That was something to remember as well.

Of course, the first editions of Woman's Hour were presented by a man. But we'll move on from that strange decision. But it was wonderful to sit with her and see how she felt about it. And she describes very well that atmosphere that you're talking about. It was terribly exciting for women. Of liberation in so many ways. And somebody says to you,

somebody like Hilda Matheson, you know, make fantastic programmes, phone Goddard and see if he's available to discuss the economy tomorrow. And women very early on the BBC really make that broad, intelligent voice. And also, if you look at the history of women's voices on air as well, I mean, there was some concern about needing a different microphone, because our voices for some were so hideous. They were too ladylike. And changing that smell, we've had some of these issues. It's not known for certain who the first woman on BBC Radio was,

but I should just say this. On the second day of broadcasting, a woman called Miss A. Benny read a story from a studio in Manchester. Very happy to hear that. It's my hometown. She was known as the Lady of the Magic Carpet. She read children's stories, and the first story was The Happy Prince by Oscar Wilde.

So I wanted to put that into people's minds this morning. I love those old BBC voices from times gone by. They're just extraordinary, aren't they? It was real sort of, you know, here we are today at the BBC. I love them. I apologise. Mine is the opposite.

No, yours is gorgeous. And so are both of yours. Thank you very much for coming on on this important day and to all of our listeners getting in touch with their stories. And so are both of yours. Thank you very much for coming on on this important day. And to all of our listeners getting in touch with their stories of aunties. All the aunties. And big it up to all the aunties. I'm one too. And, you know, it's good.

It's good. You've got that role, like you say. A bit of naughtiness, a bit of tradition. Always. All mixed in. Mel Gedroitsch, Professor Jean Seaton. Thank you. And thank you to you for your company.

Back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Gabriel Gatehouse and we're back with the Coming Storm podcast from BBC Radio 4 and World Service. As Americans vote in the midterms,

their democracy faces its first real test since the tumultuous aftermath of the 2020 election. What happened to that dark energy? The QAnon conspiracy theory about how a cabal of satanic paedophiles had stolen the election. All of this is black magic, ladies and gentlemen. That's morphed. A new diabolical enemy has emerged. Your community will consider all of you groomers. And a new deep state plot. I'm like, oh my gosh, the regime is straight up coming down on this. Listen to The Coming Storm on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.