Woman's Hour - BBC Women's Footballer of the Year 2021; Ghislaine Maxwell court case; Adoption breakdown;Anorexia & relationships; Nicola Adams

Episode Date: November 29, 2021

Vivianne Miedema of the Netherlands and Arsenal has been crowned the winner of BBC Women's Footballer of the Year 2021. The annual award from the BBC World Service is voted for by football fans from around the world. She is the all-time leading scorer in the FA WSL (women’s super league) and has scored more goals at the international level for the Netherlands than any other player, across both the women's and men's teams. This month, November 2021 she became the first player in the history of the WSL to score against every team they have faced, after scoring against Manchester United.The British socialite Ghislaine Maxwell is due to go on trial in New York City today on sex trafficking and other charges - in a highly anticipated trial. She is expected to challenge claims she groomed underage girls for convicted paedophile Jeffrey Epstein for sexual abuse. He died in prison in 2019. She has been in a US jail since her arrest last year. Laura Pullman is the Content Editor at the Sunday Times and is the former New York Correspondent and Stephen Wright is Associate Editor at the Daily Mail who joins the programme from outside the court in New York. Nicola Adams OBE is officially Great Britain’s most successful female boxer of all time. She won gold at the London Olympics in 2012 and repeated the achievement in Rio in 2016. She is the only female boxer in the history of the sport to have won every major title available to her; Olympic, World, European and Commonwealth. So, it’s not a surprise that Amazon Prime Video have made a documentary about her. Lioness: The Nicola Adams Story explores her difficult upbringing and her battles with sexism, racism and homophobia to get in the ring. We find out how a girl from a council estate in Leeds became a #Lioness.In the first part of a new series 'Under Pressure' Zoe and James explain how 'Ed' which is the name they gave Zoe's eating disorder changed their lives. How is a relationship impacted when life stuff happens? We don’t often hear about adoptions that break down, but last week former BBC Scotland health correspondent Eleanor Bradford wrote about her "heart-breaking" decision to return her adopted son to the care system. She said she was unable to cope with her son’s “extremely challenging” behaviour and that she was “furious about the lack of support for adoptive parents” in Scotland. Eleanor Bradford joins Emma to share her experience along with the chief executive of Adoption UK, Sue Armstrong Brown.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Stephen Wright Interviewed Guest: Laura Pullman Interviewed Guest: Vivianne Miedema Interviewed Guest: Nicola Adams Interviewed Guest: Eleanor Bradford Interviewed Guest: Sue Armstrong Brown

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to the programme. Hope the weekend was a good one, if not pretty chilly for most people. I mean, I'm cold the whole year round, but I did see a man in a T-shirt this morning, so not everyone feeling the cold. But in terms of what's going on, you've just been hearing in the news, with regards to the latest strain of COVID-19, the government seems to be placing its bets on boosting the booster vaccine programme to tackle the latest strain of COVID-19

with the UK's vaccine advisory body set to announce later if it will back an expansion of the COVID booster scheme. I'm minded to think back to our conversation we had together a few months ago about your methods of trying to convince those in your life to have the jab. So many of you got in touch telling me various people, daughters, sons, brothers, other halves, just won't. And what you were trying to do to deal with that.

How are those conversations going? I thought I'd check back in. Not least because I was reading the story in the papers, I'm sure some of you will have seen this, of Glyn Steele, a vegan man who refused the Covid jab because it was tested on animals, who has died of the virus. He faced a two-week battle in intensive care and begged nurses for the jab as he fought for his life, but it was too late to save him. His last words to his wife Emma were, I have never felt so ill, I wish I'd had the vaccine. Emma, who is double jabbed, says she's now facing an empty future alone and has called

on everyone to take the vaccine. Well, as the government, doctors and scientists alike grapple with Omicron, the latest strain that we've become aware of, how are your conversations about the vaccine and COVID-19 going on in your family and friendship circles at the moment? Have you given up trying to convince people that you love and care about or perhaps work with? You know, you don't have to love them, but you might have to have contact with them. Or are you doubling down? Are you cancelling plans? Are you carrying on as normal? I thought I'd check back in with you. Text me here at Women's Hour on 84844. That's the number you need. You'll be charged at your standard message rate,

so do be aware of that. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour or email me through our website. Also on today's programme, known to some as the baby-faced assassin, I'll be joined by the UK's greatest female boxer, Nicola Adams is going to step into the Women's Hour ring. The BBC Women's Footballer of the Year

to keep with some sport is also announced. We'll be talking to her. And the woman who adopted two children but has given one back to the care system. A story you don't often hear, but one that is important and she has a lot to say. Stay with us for that.

But first, the British socialite Ghislaine Maxwell is due to go on trial in New York City today on sex trafficking and other charges in a highly anticipated trial. She's expected to challenge claims she groomed underage girls for convicted paedophile Jeffrey Epstein for sexual abuse. He died in prison in 2019. She's been in a US jail since her arrest last year. To talk more, Laura Pullman is the content editor at the Sunday Times and former New York

correspondent, and Stephen Wright, associate editor for the Daily Mail, who's actually outside the court in New York now, and I'll go to you first. Good morning, Stephen. Morning, Emma. What's it like there? I know you arrived only recently. Just, yeah, about ten minutes ago

because we were advised to get down to court before 6am. It's just gone five now to make sure we can get in. We've seen dozens of journalists, reporters, TV crews, etc. to be here. It is highly anticipated, and it is, in my experience, an unprecedented case because of who's effectively going in the dock and all the characters involved in this case on the outside of it. And of course, poor women who alleged that Ghislaine Maxwell committed crimes in the 90s and early noughties. So yeah, it's unprecedented. And for our time, Ghislaine Maxwell will be entering court.

Yes. And I mean, the thing is, I only recently was thinking about the way that we kind of lead up to these sorts of trials and what goes on. And you've been covering crime for a very long time and all sorts of levels of it and different stories. Why do you think this is so unprecedented for some? I think it's unprecedented because, well, she's a woman. I mean, in my 30 years covering crime on Fleet Street, to have a woman facing these charges is very unusual because of her background. Her starting life, obviously,

her father, Robert Maxwell, the publisher, Tycoon, that aspect of it. And then there's the issue of her links to Jeffrey Epstein, the tycoon here, and the now infamous picture of Prince Andrew with Ghislaine Maxwell and a woman who alleges that Prince Andrew committed a criminal offense against Virginia Roberts. That picture surfaced in 2011, a picture taken 10 years earlier in Ghislaine Maxwell's house in

London. So you put those factors into it. And there are other VIPs as well who've been linked to Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein, who you say killed himself a couple of years ago. Very high profile people. So you've got that mix. And I have to say, having

been to my fourth time in the States covering the Jeffrey Epstein case, I think the thing which has really stood out to me when I first came to the US on this story, I perhaps naively thought that

the US establishment wouldn't be as bad as the British one in terms of accountability and transparency. But my, you know, in 2008, Jeffrey Epstein somehow managed to cut a a plea bargain bill with the authorities so he only served 15 months in jail and really for child's expenses he should have gone to jail for 20 years or more and i think you know he cheated justice and that's

my firm opinion he cheated justice again by taking his life two years ago and i feel that this trial now um as i said in the daily mail in my dispatch in new york on on on saturday there's a sense that the u.s justice system is almost going on trial as well here because they you know jeffrey epstein did not face proper justice. The question is, as Ghislaine Maxwell's lawyers are saying, is she being the victim, the scapegoat, shall we say, for the failings in dealing with Epstein, her former boyfriend? There are a lot of levels in this story, a lot of people involved, a lot of issues involved in it as well, and some very brave women as well who challenged um the

authorities uh to try and get justice and obviously it's going to be up to a jury to decide the guilt or innocence of gillian maxwell in the coming weeks yes and and i'll i'll come to laura in just a moment for some more of that detail if i may but just a final word from you steven of course you mentioned uh the du York there, Prince Andrew, who unequivocally regrets the latest statement on that we can have and his ill-judged association with Jeffrey Epstein. That has been the line for some time. And it's empathetically denied that the Duke of York

had any form of sexual contact or relationship with Virginia Roberts. Any claim to the contrary is false and without foundation. But just as you're trying to get into that court, and as your paper puts it in your dispatch, the courtroom drama that will grip the world, as you say, for those ingredients and all those people. And, you know, why do you think it's such a, or how is it going to be, do you think, in there?

If you say, if the American justice system is on trial, what do you expect the atmosphere to be like? And how do you expect it to be with your experience? Well, I think, well, she, Ghislaine Maxwell, trial what do you expect the atmosphere to be like and how do you expect it to be with your experience i well i i i think well she galena maxwell has got a star-studded uh legal team uh some real bruisers in their uh federal federal prosecutors who have turned to some defense attorneys that's their right all the indications are it's going to be a bitter battle it's a very dangerous game to accuse women who say they've been abused to accuse them of being lying yes or be liars and that's they they have to balance that with trying to get justice as they see it for their client so i the u.s, are very different to our system back home in London.

When someone's charged, they do a press conference and say they're guilty. You're a jury to decide. It's very different here. The stakes are very high here, Emma, for the U.S. justice system. And Ghislaine Maxwell's lawyers are going to put up one hell of a battle. Those are, from the court firings we've seen over the last few weeks in particular. It's going to be bitter, a bitter battle. Well, talking of bitter, I was going to say, Stephen Wright, I'll let you get back to the bitter cold of the queue to get into the courtroom. I imagine it's rather nippy in New York.

Yeah, thank you very much. Stephen Wright, associate editor of the Daily Mail. Laura Pullman, as I say, former New York correspondent. In terms of what Stephen was saying there, and I saw you nodding so I can see you on video call here, about the women who have made these allegations and also US high society and also the justice system over there going on trial effectively. What do you want to say about that? Well, I think that the real point is it's hard to overstate how spectacular this fall from grace has been for Ghislaine Maxwell. She really was just the top of New York society. And when I was a New York correspondent, I would talk to plenty of people

who had crossed paths with her in the kind of glittery socialite world, but none would ever speak to you on the record. You know, she had cut such a lonely figure now. And, you know, Ian Maxwell, her brother is kind of banging the drum for her and her family are rallying round, but the friends are now nowhere to be seen, of course. As to the women who have accused her of these crimes, you know, I think what's interesting is how they are going to now be torn apart by Maxwell's lawyers. You know, they're going to be their credibility is going to be undermined at any point at any point, at every point, sorry, as money grabbers. They're going to call a false memory

expert, a woman very well known in America called Professor Elizabeth Loftus. You know, she testified at the trial of Jeffrey Epstein, not Jeffrey Epstein, Harvey Weinstein, easily confused perhaps sometimes, and O.J. Simpson. And she is going to be talking about how women and people can develop false memories. And so for the accusers now, the next six weeks are going to be an incredibly challenging time. And in terms of the U.S. justice system as well, I mean, it's just worth reflecting on. Of course, we're at the beginning of this, but it is different.

There are differences to it. And also there's been much made from, you know, I'm very aware we're at the beginning of a trial, there'll be a jury and all of that. So being careful of that and mindful of that. But of course, she's been in prison

for some time and there's been quite a lot of detail about the conditions of that and how that differs and also the length of sentences, sometimes in comparison to the UK. So I think that there's some differences there, aren't there as well? Yeah, absolutely. And look, if she is found guilty and if this does not go her way, she will be in prison for the rest of her life. She'll turn 60 on Christmas Day.

I do, by the way, think about what her 60th would have been like had her life gone in a different direction, kind of glittering party on a super yacht. But now it's almost inevitable the trial will still be going on. And she will still be behind bars. But, you know, the jury were asked if they had strong views about people who led luxurious lifestyles. They were also asked whether they had expressed support for the Me Too movement in the past. I think one of the things that Ghislaine Maxwell's team were incredibly nervous about were the fact that in dummy panels, Ghislaine Maxwell was found to be wholly unlikable,

I think the quote was. So the biggest concern is that she's going to come across as arrogant, suspicious, lacking credibility, and frankly, not particularly likable. Well, there's also just finally, to the other point that Stephen was making, which was around the elements of a woman being accused of these crimes as well. And, you know, even if you have no interest, and there'll be people shouting at the radio, it shouldn't matter what your background is, it shouldn't matter what your bank balance was

or how well connected you are, justice should be justice, we'll wait to see what happens and all of that. But there is this added element, of course, with, as he was saying, you know, this not being something that normally comes up with women in the dock. Absolutely, it's incredibly rare. And I do think people hold particular feelings for women who commit these sorts of crimes.

And that's going to play against her as well, without a doubt. And it's also part of the reason why we're all watching so closely, for sure. Laura Pullman, thank you very much from the Sunday Times. They're putting us into some of the picture of that trial, which is highly anticipated by many and certainly got the world's attention. And Ghislaine Maxwell, of course, the first day of that trial, and we'll keep you across that as it develops. And of course, some of the testimony as well that will come out from that, as well as, of course, the defence. Well, Elaine's got in touch to say in light of my very first question about relations closer to home, perhaps, with regards to your family, COVID, the jabs, as we expect a decision later today,

with regards to boosters being offered potentially to all UK adults, not just those of a certain age, with regards to the latest strain of COVID-19. Elaine says, our relationship with our daughter-in-law has been very difficult since she decided not to have the vaccine. It's broken our family.

We have two doctors in the family who have been dealing with the pandemic and they cannot understand or persuade our daughter-in-law to change her mind. I'm heartbroken to see our lovely family split apart. Elaine, I'm very sorry to hear that, but thank you for your candour. We've got a message from Sally who's texted to say, I'm a retired GP with a bad chest and my vegan daughter refuses the vaccine on, she says, quote, conspiracy grounds.

I have been calm and quiet so far but i'm now very worried when we see her that i will get covid and not survive will she respond to that by staying away or by getting vaccinated yes i think the longer this goes on those conversations can be completely unavoidable or you have to avoid each other it seems from some of these messages another one here for my friends and family who refuse to have their COVID jabs, including the booster, I ban them from my home and social activities. I had my polio and TB vaccines years ago when they were first available, therefore saving many lives. Some of those

who are refusing their jabs may not have been born if our generation hadn't been vaccinated. Another one here, anonymous, which you can do, I should say, my husband's French colleague was anti-vaccine, but eventually changed her mind because in France, you can't do much without a vaccine passport. The inconvenience to her daily life made her get her vaccine.

And we have French family getting jabbed for the same reasons. So some context there. Keep those messages coming in. Some of those perhaps confrontations that have been avoided or conversations may now be coming to the fore in light of the latest strain, but also, I suppose, with festivities and the end of the year and Christmas coming into view or certainly getting together as often people try to do or like to do but of course last year was very different indeed but keep those messages coming in I would like to hear if you're having those

chats if you're still trying or doubling down 84844 is the number you need to message. Now, the BBC Women's Footballer of the Year 2021 has just been revealed. It is the Netherlands Vivianne Medema of Arsenal fame. The annual award from the BBC World Service is voted for by football fans from around the world. And she is an all-time leading scorer in the FA Women's Super League with more than 100 goals for Arsenal since she joined them in March 2017. As a centre forward, she has scored more goals at the international level from the Netherlands than any other player

across both the women's and men's team. I caught up with Vivian as she was preparing for a World Cup qualifying game against Czech Republic, which ended with a 2-2 draw. Pretty special, to be honest.

I think, obviously, we've got a great fan base at the national team, at Arsenal as well, and being voted by the fans is something special. What do you think it is? What do you think it is about you? Is it all those goals? I mean, it must be the goals.

Not sure what else. Obviously, as I said, we've got a great fan base and I feel like they really appreciate me and that obviously helps me massively on the pitch. So, yeah, it's a really good feeling, to be fair. I mean, it's an enormous number of goals, though, isn't it? It's a great tally. Yeah, I mean, I am a number nine, so people probably expect me to score a lot of goals.

It's my job and I'm happy I can help the team with it that way. Do you feel that pressure, though, because of that role and that expectation? I think less so now than I used to when I was a bit younger. I think you kind of get used to it a bit. Obviously, you start acknowledging your own qualities as well, which helps massively. And I'm happy that, obviously, so far it's been coming out and I'll probably have a dry spell soon.

But, yeah, I can't really complain. What's your thing when you score a goal? Because I've heard it's quite understated. Yeah, I don't really do anything, to be honest. I think I'll leave that up to the rest. I think you see a lot of weird and funny situations these days, but it's not really me. I like to keep it nice and quiet and just pick up the ball

and start the game again. So literally nothing? It's sort of, oh, I just did that. And then you walk off. I've got the game a bit better over recent months. Like I probably have like a little fist in the air or something like that, but nothing really big. No. No. Okay. Well, I think, you know, keeping yourself focused, some may say they would prefer that perhaps with the men's game as well, if they just got straight back to it. In terms of your personal love of football, where did that come from? I think I grew up in a football family.

My dad used to play football. I think my mum is the biggest football fan. So I didn't really have a choice. I've tried different things. I've tried tennis, swimming, cycling. But yeah, I always came back to football. And I just loved it since minute one, really. What was it like, though, where you were growing up in terms of thinking about that as a potential career?

Did it seem possible? I think I wasn't really aware of what was out there for women's football. I think obviously growing up, I wanted to be like Aubrey van Persie, Lionel Messi later. Like, I think I didn't have the women's role models that are there right now so I think growing up now as a young girl you've got something to look forward to I never realized what I could achieve and I think obviously the moment that I started playing national team I started playing league one football in in Holland that's when I realized that women's football is out there and it's growing. And now as a full-time job, don't have to work alongside it,

can actually earn a salary. I mean, it's been changing quite rapidly. Oh, absolutely. I think even when you look at people coming to the stadium, views on TV, it's obviously like becoming professional and it's amazing to be part of it. It's amazing to try and help grow the game. And we're lucky. We're lucky to be

in this time and in this area that obviously women's football is growing. I'm really looking forward to the Euros in England next summer and hopefully we will develop and continue to grow. The Euros where, of course, you'll be representing the Netherlands. Have you got any things that you do

before every match? Any pre-match rituals? Not really. Like I used to be really superstitious, but... Oh, what did that mean? What wouldn't you do or what would you do? Basically at home, my mum always had to give me steak the day before the game. Basically I had to put on my left sock before my right, but I used to have a nap before the game or like listen to certain music in the bars but I think over the over the last couple of years you just realize that you kind of get lift so like you don't really have your own schedule you can't really do your

own thing and I think the easiest thing was to just throw them all out the window and just to do you whatever you feel like on that day so So at the moment, I've got absolutely nothing. I mean, I like listening to Taylor Swift before the games, but that's it. Which particular Taylor number? Every number, really. Like listening to the Evermore album a lot right now. You can still keep going with the left sock business because you can be in control of which sock you put on. But I love hearing those quirks that people have

about what they've got to do before they go out and perform yeah I mean I probably still could do them but I think I've just chucked them away and and that's it now like there's no way back I'm not gonna tell myself to do something like that again because it's very annoying does Taylor Swift uh feature in celebrations either after a match or winning something like this well to be fair like a lot of the girls actually know that I'm a big fan, so they do put one of the numbers in the playlist, either before or after the game. So they do think about me, which is good.

Well, listen, I'm not going to keep you any longer. I know you're off to play, but congratulations on winning BBC Women's Footballer of the Year 2021. Thank you. Vivian Medema there with both socks on and a bit of Taylor Swift to get her on her way. BBC Women's Footballer of the Year 2021. Still to come, I'll be talking to our gracious

ever female boxer, Nicola Adams, to keep you inspired and keep you pumped up, hopefully. I've just got to say, this message that's come in, and so many are with regards to, and very powerful ones, what's going on within your family at the moment and how you're talking to friends and loved ones about COVID-19 with news of this latest strain. And later we'll find out about the booster jabs

and what the government's going to do with regards to that. A message here saying, my beloved 88-year-old granny is refusing the vaccine because my uncles have convinced her she doesn't need it and made her scared of it. She's in excellent health and it terrifies me that she thinks she's invincible. I love her too much to go and visit. I'm a teacher and I feel like I can't risk it,

but I miss her so much. So these conversations sort of happening but not happening and you're sharing with us this morning. So I am very appreciative of that. But wow, how sad for you not to be able to see her and that's out of love in itself. Well, talking of love, talking of families, to a story now that you don't often hear. My next guest adopted two brothers and eight years later made, as she described it, the heartbreaking decision to give one of them back to the care system. Eleanor Bradford, the former BBC Scotland health correspondent, joins me now along with the Chief Executive of Adoption UK,

Sue Armstrong Brown, an organisation of which Eleanor is also a trustee. Sue, I'll come to you shortly, but Eleanor, first to you. Good morning. Good morning. Tell us how you came to this situation where, well, first of all, you felt like you had to perhaps consider giving one of your children children one of your boys back well as you say we adopted the two brothers um eight years ago um and for the first four or five years um we had an absolutely magical time um adoption you know is one of the most incredible things that you can do

but what i think society doesn't recognize is that um it's not like it is in the movies um you know these are not children who disappear off into the sunset like Anne of Green Gables or Annie um and these are these children uh often um come from very very traumatic backgrounds and therefore can be some of the most challenging children to parent in society. And in our case, with our younger child, it was a breeze. There were a few minor issues, but nothing we couldn't cope with. But in the case of the older child, it was very, very different. And the trauma he'd experienced and possibly also fetal alcohol syndrome that he has, which is undiagnosed, but we strongly suspect that's the case, led to behaviours that were really so challenging to deal with. I mean, if I tell you the basics were lying, stealing, lack of impulse control. He found it impossible to have empathy for other people. Those were the easy bits.

There were other things that went on that I can't go into too much detail. Well, in fact, I can't go into any detail for legal reasons to protect him. But there were extremely challenging behaviours that put my family at risk, put him at risk, put me at risk, and his younger brother. And then his behaviour became really severely challenging over the summer. We found out that a neighbour had been taking him in, thought she could do better, thought that his change in behaviour was down to us because we were bad parents, told him that and gave him some of the things that we had restricted to keep him safe. So she gave him a smartphone so he could immediately go online and

that to him is something, is a world that he can't control himself in and is very dangerous for him. And because we couldn't stop him going to this neighbour's house and because the trust had completely broken down in our family and we were all now at risk. The only solution really, and our son also agreed that the only solution was for him to go and live with foster carers. The son in question? Yes. So he admitted that he wouldn't be able to stop himself from going to this person. He also felt that the relationship had broken down. We all knew that the family had ceased to function. And this gave us a breathing space. It's a huge taboo, even though it's something that perhaps shouldn't be. I know that you're passionate about this because it's got to be what happens afterwards that's the story of adoption, not just the adopting? Yeah, so I'm in an unusual situation in being able to speak out because I'm able to protect his identity for various reasons. But

since I have spoken out, I've been deluged with messages from other families who have been in the same situation and in fact, in worse situations. and they told me that they left it too late and their marriages broke down they lost their jobs and their child ended up going back into care anyway but this is not never heard about because it's very difficult for parents to speak out without revealing the identity of the children involved and And, you know, it's ironic that we have done so much to give those children a better life. And yet when it goes wrong, we are unsupported and we can't speak out. Let's talk about support for a moment, because it was your experience, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you were asking for support, there was various requests for support, and actually it was only when you made this decision that the support started to come in more? It's a bit different to that. So actually in our case,

we were very unusual in that we had a social worker. But the only reason we had a social worker was because we were respite foster carers. So we provided respite for other people who were foster carers who needed a break. So our social worker was a source of support, although there wasn't any training funded by our local authority area that she could send us to. Any training or support we had was provided by charity um but what really um caused the problem for us was a general lack of awareness amongst

other organizations especially the school and this is what other adoptive families have told me is the same so um for an example just the other day i happened to see some advice that is sent out to schools by police scotland and it's advice on when you should call the police. And there's a list of vulnerable children there. You know, these are children who are extremely vulnerable and you should treat with extreme care, you know, when a child has committed an offence. And adopted children aren't listed there. So children who are currently in care are listed, you know, children who are carers are listed, but adopted children have come through often the most severe trauma of all that meant that they had to be completely removed from their birth families. And yet, because organisations still have this romantic notion that once an adoption starts, you know, the trauma ends.

They don't see these children as needing ongoing support. And in our case, a lot of our problems started when our child started secondary school and couldn't cope. But he was masking his difficulties at school. And all the school saw was a charming um pleasant funny slightly disruptive um young man and so when we started saying about the severe difficulties we were having at home um we were treated as if you know it was clearly a problem with our parenting let me i was just going to say because i think we're getting some messages i'm sure along similar lines but also with other people's stories.

Let me just bring in Sue at this point, who is the chief executive of Adoption UK. Sue, how common is it for adoptions to break down? Well, fortunately, it's rare. To the best of our knowledge, it's around 3%, 3% to 4% of adoptions. I have to say here that this data is not collected routinely. We are saying that because Adoption UK runs an annual survey of adopters, which tells us that the rate is hovering between 3% and 4% of those who respond. But we do lack official information about this and many other aspects of adoption after the adoption order is signed. But for every one of those 3% of adoptions that break down, which is a few hundred in the uk every year every single one of those is an absolute tragedy as as ella has just given us some some really upsetting

insight into what it's like to live through that but i should also say that um for the families that aren't brought completely to their knees by that experience of early trauma and the way it plays out in families there are a lot of of other families who are still needing to access support. In fact, Adoption UK says that every adoptive family needs to be able to access support as a given, because every one of those children has gone through trauma. And we can't expect, as Ellen has just said, we can't expect that not to have any consequences

after they reach stability and love in a new adoptive family. We've got a couple of statements I'll read out at the end, which basically make the right noises around. There is support and there is money for this being set aside by, you know, various governments. Is there? Is it good enough? There is money. There is money. And where people can access it, it's life changing.

So the stories that we've got back from many of our members and other adopters have been that when they've accessed targeted tailored individual support that's appropriately assessed and delivered it can transform not only that that family's life but also that child's future life chances so it's absolutely it's essential that this is now provided for all adoptive families what we have is um central funding in England. So there's an adoption support fund in England that provides funding that can be applied for by adoption agencies on behalf of families. A different setup in Wales. Each country's got its own different setup. But what we're not

seeing is sufficient funding going into this. And we're seeing local authorities needing to ration the amount of support that's delivered per family because they don't have enough money to fund all of it and we're tending to see the effect of that being that families have to wait until they're in crisis before they can access support because those are the ones that the agencies need to prioritise and once that's happened often the support will come too late and won't be sufficient to be able to resolve the problems that the family's experiencing can i can i sorry can i just point out emma that i repeatedly asked the school to take advantage of some free training that they could um take up and they refused or they just didn't do it um and and this is part of the problem is is that um i completely understand that teachers have got a

million things that they need to be aware of now with dyslexia and autism and all the other things that they have to cope with. But I think what we need is a shift in society just to recognise that adopted children should be classed alongside children in foster care. And just by doing that, it, you know, flags them. Yes. And they would enter some of those similar systems that already exist that you're also familiar with in a different way. How are you doing now, Eleanor? You know, you're obviously very good at writing and talking and sort of sharing here and you're doing it for the reasons you've outlined, but it's still a major thing to have happened and also moved to have made.

Yeah, it's a very strange thing. So I'm sitting talking to you now from my son's empty room and there is a big emptiness in the house, but it's not entirely a negative emptiness because also I can walk in the door, I can put my bag on the table, which is something I couldn't do before I had to take my purse out lock it away hide the key and then hide my bag and that was just the first five minutes of me getting into the house so um you know things have changed a lot and we're all adjusting to that but I'm still his mum we're still his family we see him as much as we like

we have contact every weekend his younger brother can text him and phone him anytime he likes and they do and I think we are now resetting our relationship and I had a lovely message from someone who said that their child going into care allowed them to reset their relationship and, you know, begin again. But what a tragedy for everyone that it has to reach this point, because there's no doubt that my son, his life chances statistically have now worsened. He's now going from, you know, set of carers to set of carers. He doesn't know where he's going to be after Christmas because the arrangement for him now is temporary. And we know that all that has an effect

and that his life chances are best when he's in a secure long-term placement. Eleanor, thank you for talking to us today. Eleanor Bradford there. And Sue Armstrong-Brown from Adoption UK, the chief executive. We asked for responses from the Scottish Government and Moray Council. In response to the story, the Scottish Government spokesman said,

the promise, which is part of the Independent Care Review in Scotland 2020, made it clear that adoption has an important role in providing a permanent, loving, nurturing home and set out that an adoption placement should not be the conclusion of support offered to adoptive families. All local authorities have a statutory duty to provide support to adoptive families. This approach is supplemented by a Scottish Government commitment to invest £500 million over the life of this Parliament. This ensures families can access support where and when they need it

and a spokesperson for the council so they can't comment on individual cases, but they set out the support available to adoptive families in the area, saying we offer a three-day adoption preparation course, which we encourage prospective adopters to attend before making an application, so they can hear firsthand from adopters and adoptees about the realities. After an adoption order is made, it's the choice of the adoptive parents as to whether the support continues.

Adoption support is available in Moray at any time and can be accessed by contacting the social work department. Well, the first now in a new Woman's Hour series called Under Pressure, which examines how relationships change when put under strain. Zoe and James in this one talk about how Ed, which is what they call Zoe's eating disorder, has affected them since they got together as a couple when they were at school. Zoe's anorexia was atypical, meaning her weight wasn't low, but she was in the grip of anorexia. All the behaviours and disordered thinking were there. Her body was under terrible stress and she was regularly collapsing. Only James was really aware of what was going on, a fact which put their relationship under extra pressure. Our reporter, Joe Morris, went to meet Zoe and James in Lincolnshire and James started with a memory. James was really aware of what was going on, a fact which put their relationship under extra pressure.

Our reporter, Joe Morris, went to meet Zoe and James in Lincolnshire and James started with a memory. It's just so weird looking back at it. Shocking how hard it all was, how relentless it all was. But I remember so many times us just sat on the kitchen floor. Oh, God, yeah. With our arms around each other. Found a great photo of you James. I don't like the sound of that. Let's have a look. Hey that's not too bad. Look at your tie. What's this photo from? That's us just before our prom at Sixth Form. No, it was Year 11. Year 11?

Yeah. Oh, God. Just finished GCSE's Year 11 prom. And you were already a couple? Yeah. So how old are you both now? 29. We only met because our names followed alphabetically.

So obviously we got put in classes and things at school. We were put next to each other. Poor James just had to put up with me in most lessons. How would you describe your relationship then? Photos don't say what's actually going on. Ed was very present.

Looking back when you first met James, do you think you saw signs of Zoe's eating disorder even then? Maybe not when we first met. I hid it well. As we spent more time together, I definitely started noticing things that weren't quite right.

I don't remember much specifically, but I do remember one thing specifically, was that you had a bar of Cadbury's chocolate. You're never going to let me forget this, are you? I don't know why it sticks in my mind so well, but I remember you seeming very generous and you were breaking off a square and sharing it with everyone at school. And you basically just broke down this whole bar of chocolate

and gave it just entirely to other people and never had anything yourself. And it really bugged me. I think it sort of showed me the the disregard you had for yourself and just worried me so can we talk about ed yeah go for it who is ed ed is it's just a name that i gave my eating disorder it helped us communicate it didn't it in a way it just separates out what you actually think and what's the eating disorder taking over so Zoe what does it feel like inside your head when that voice Ed is talking to you so real so intense a lot of people like with eating disorder say oh they don't get the voice

but for me I very much did and it very much controlled my every waking thought. It was like my voice, but stern. Like, you can't do that. You mustn't do that. What are you doing? Very nasty. I wouldn't dare speak to anybody the way that I spoke to myself. One of the things that anorexia does or can do is make you very secretive. What's that laugh for yeah i got too good at hiding my behaviors i i'm such an open book but i became master of deceit i could

convince him that i'd had breakfast try and make it look like i'd eaten or because i work in nursery i got into the habit of saying i'd had lunch with the kids and I'd had what they had. So I didn't need an evening meal because I'd had a hot meal at work. Did you know that Zoe was lying to you? I suspected at times that Zoe was lying to me. And then as it went on, I probably grew a bit more attuned to her when she was lying. So where do you normally eat then?

Anywhere. I have no rules anymore. It's great. Because again, when entrenched in those ed behaviours, it was at the dining table, literally that chair. I would have literally gone to that chair and eaten at the table. None of the others, it had to be that one. I don't know why. Logic. Went out the window, but for some reason reason literally this spot right here it became a war zone but we've redecorated it all now and redone it it almost become like a trauma response because every time i sit here i would think of all those horrible memories of trying to eat here so

we put like new flooring down and put a nice big mirror up and the photos behind us and so you've got the photos up behind of your wedding yeah just have a happier time so what do you mean when you said this became like a war zone literally the arguments would have ran a dinner table when i was trying to eat the the tears of frustration because i knew what i should be doing but i couldn't i just couldn't bring myself to do it so then i'd get angry with myself quite often self-harm because i was just so angry and i just bite myself quite often which i know sounds bizarre but that anger and frustration because i was again trying to bury all these emotions they would build up and i'll just burst i'd pop what are you making i'm intrigued me yeah

how can you be making something and not knowing what you're doing? I've got some bread out. You've got bread out. That's a very good start to make a sandwich. I've got some cheese. What's the hardest thing for you about having an eating disorder and being in a relationship? Oh, this sounds awful, but it's the intimacy side of things for me. Because every time James, if he was in public,

if he were to hold my hand, my mind would would go people are going to see him with him he's they're going to assume that what on earth is he doing with someone like her he could do better than her I was convinced everyone would judge me if he like come up behind me and give me a kiss or something my mind would be so focused on my negative body image issues that I couldn't see it was just him trying to you know come give me a hug it would go to he's secretly measuring your body why do you think that sounds awful I just didn't really realize to be honest until it was going through treatment how much I was trying to sabotage the relationship can we talk about sex I'm fine with it. We can do, yeah. Are you sure? Yeah. Bless you.

So how has having an eating disorder impacted your sex life? You sort of lack confidence in you because of how you thought you looked. I didn't want you to not want to be intimate and think that you had to. So I'd not make the move. But then you would think that, oh, he's not making a a move so he's not interested in me so I am ugly I am fat which was obviously not the case in the kind of early starts of our relationship there's certain areas I said oh yeah can you not be self-conscious about that but over the time it just become my whole body was just like a no-go zone if that makes sense and i

couldn't focus on what i was meant to be doing because i was too busy literally pulling my body to shreds i was waiting for him to leave have you ever thought that this relationship might not be able to take the pressure you can say it it's fine i know exactly what you're gonna say i was looking at flats and thinking oh if we end up separating or something what am i gonna do and and sort of doing some sort of plan for that because i just felt so pushed away so often did you tell loy not until funnily enough few weeks ago when we were looking back and chatting about things. To be fair, I don't blame him because I did the same. I did the same.

I didn't look at flowers and fruit, but I was beginning to panic. When he leaves, where are you going to live? What are you going to do? How are you going to get by? I didn't know this. I can't believe you didn't tell me this when we were talking about this the other week. I kept it because I knew.

Don't hate me. I feel betrayed now. I don't. You did it too. I mean, you both sat here with me now eating a sandwich comfortably. Right. At the table.

Zoe just putting the last mouthful in. Could you have imagined being in this place a few years ago? Before it all sort of escalated, it didn't seem unreasonable just to be able to sit down and eat a sandwich together. Sometimes I'd just be fed up and I'm just like, just eat it, will you? Please! To sometimes say the right things.

And what would the right thing be? Oh, I don't even know, to be honest. It was always away from the food that I found the most helpful. So he would always say, you know, I love you. Do you remember when we did this and you did this and it really made me smile? Just taking the focus away from, you know, the food and reminding me that I wasn't good.

I know it sounds bizarre, but that I was a good person and that I wasn't this hideous waste of space that Ed's made me believe that I was. We'd cook tea together and... Making salads, weighing out lettuce and cucumber and I had to track absolutely everything that I was eating. Oh, it was ridiculous. Took like an hour to make a salad, didn't it?

I'd still look back at us doing that and think why on earth did i agree to it i think i i knew it wasn't the right thing to be doing but i can weigh everything out while cooking tea and zoe might eat it or i'll not weigh everything and she'll refuse i would have refused anyway half the time even when he did weigh it all out because it was too much or i could have got stuff done in this time but he said no weighing out lettuce and no it seems so logical and I said I can joke and see the lighter side of it now but in that time it was so real and so intense what were your fears for Zoe James I'll be perfectly honest one point when we were back and forth to the hospital I remember laying

awake in bed at night and thinking how am I going to tell our niece that Auntie Zoe's not around anymore because I just knew that that your body wasn't coping with it and it was just getting worse and worse and worse

and I thought this is going to kill you one day that must have been very lonely for you no one knew the full extent of what you were doing this is my wife that's going through this rather than my kid there's no support groups out there for couples it is so hard watching your loved one

go through all of this of course it's going to break them as well I remember when you broke for the first time do you? so it's when I realised I had a. I remember when you broke for the first time. Do you? Mm-hmm. So it's when I realised that I had a problem as well, seeing you break the way you did. A&E.

Do you remember? I was talking about my heart. As my heart rate had dropped. I'd never seen him cry, ever, at this point. He kind of took my phone out of my hand and, like, lobbed it. And was like, can you not see what this is doing to you? Can you not see that this is killing you? And you just broke in tears.

And it was like a switch in my brain. And for the first time, I kind of realised, well, shh, OK, this isn't right. He got me into treatment in the first place. After the doctors and everything had turned me away, I was adamant that I was fine he knew that I wasn't Zoe went to the GP on her own and was obviously not given any help whatsoever and that's when I sort of did more research into it and then eventually spoke to the person who leads our local eating disorder team she basically asked me

what does Zoe do what are her behaviours she just said to me that's exactly an eating disorder she needs to be treated by us basically it's strange to think if things didn't get as bad as they did we won't be as good as we are now because we wouldn't have wouldn't have got into the right treatment where is your relationship now compared with where it was? I love our relationship now. Our relationship's good, isn't it? Yeah. So we can actually focus on us again. Do you find you are still watching Zoe and looking for signs?

I am conscious of seeing any behaviors crop up i don't think it consumes me anywhere near as much as it obviously used to i think if i say something or do something it's quite quick now to ask that question are you okay i don't feel like i'm treading on eggshells i'm probably aware of things that i could say that might sort of trigger something and to be fair i'd probably say them and zoe would probably tell me off now which is good yeah yeah i probably would now but that's good isn't it i suppose that you now call him out i do actually a few years ago i went off my goodness now i'd have just taken it all internally and gone oh if people are talking about diets around me, if people are talking about weight loss around me,

he is fabulous at just changing the subject. That's because it's a boring subject. Very true. Do you worry about relapsing? Not now. It's so nice of you to say that. you know what no i don't even if i did i don't think it would be such a battle like zoe said we are actually much better equipped now i'm not trying to hide who i am anymore this sounds so cheesy but throughout my whole life i've tried

to be the perfect person for everybody else. I've tried to please everybody else. Whereas now, I'm actually just free to be who I want to be, if that makes sense. And I've completely changed as a person over the past few years. But you've kind of grown with me. I think the new you now is just all of the bits that I liked about you most before more of the time. That's right, so well done. That was really sweet. Get off for not buying flowers.

No. You're a bugger. Sorry, James, talking to Jo Morris there. You'll find sources of information and support on the Woman's Hour website. And also, I should say, with your messages this morning around vaccination and COVID-19, while of course the scientific evidence supports people taking the vaccine, some of you have also been getting in touch with us to tell us your reasons as to why you might still be hesitant, bodily autonomy, fears over allergic reactions, or perhaps even anxiety preventing someone leaving their home. There's one message from Kay who says,

I'm the parent of a young adult who suffers from anxiety and scarcely leaves the home. She would get vaccinated if it could be done at home. And more of those messages still coming in. But I did promise you my next guest, who's nicknamed by some the baby faced assassin on account of her youthful experience. But because of her prowess in the ring, she also happens to be this country's most successful female boxer, Nicola Adams. She's, of course, the only female boxer in the history of the sport to have won every major title available to her. And now comes the documentary,

Lioness, the Nicola Adams story on Amazon. Good morning. Morning. How's it feel to have a movie about your life? Yeah, it feels really good. It's awesome. It's taken almost two years to make it and I'm super happy and proud of the outcome. Well, I mean, I was going to say, just looking at it from a woman's angle, if I can, and you'll forgive me for that,

some of the sexism and the stories of sexism in there, and I think I'm quite well versed in them, they're almost laughable. I mean, there's reasons given around women entering boxing or problems with it or perceived problems because of menstrual cycles. when a woman is on a on her period she might not even have the strength to walk up the stairs to get into the ring bearing in mind like I was like what is this is this actually and it wasn't even that long ago this is like 1996. It's extraordinary I mean the other thing of course to say is you know you may not some may not but also some people may feel it's the exact time they want to get in a ring. Yeah. And it's like you do realize that women go through childbirth. One of the most traumatic things that anybody can experience in their body. Like you're worried about women walking up the stairs. And I think what's fascinating, there's so many things, you know, within the doc, people should go and have a look at it.

It's very powerful. Not least, you know, your story of how you grew up and how you found boxing. But you say in the documentary, despite the fact I'm a black woman, I'm a lesbian, being female was way more offensive to the boxing community than anything else. Yeah, it was. I mean, I was told comments like women belong in the kitchen. Why don't you go play tennis instead? You're too pretty to box. Surely there's some other sport you could do apart from boxing. It was just constant. And what did you used to say when people would mention your looks

or get back in the kitchen? I'd say, no, thank you. I'm happy boxing and I'm going to continue to do that. And I'm so glad I did because, hey, now I'm say no, thank you. I'm happy boxing and I'm going to continue to do that. And I'm so glad I did because, hey, like now I'm sat here, a world champion, two-time Olympic champion. Yeah. It's worked out pretty well. Yeah, now there's actually girls that have been able to follow in my footsteps

and go to tournaments and win Olympic medals of their own now. Yeah. Well, I mean, the other thing was also this idea about women fighting. You know, just because men have done it doesn't mean women should. What do you make of that? It's just, it's always, it's always baffled me. I guess it's from a very old ideology of what a woman is supposed to be like, what a purpose is supposed to be.

A long time ago, and I guess still for some people today, they believe that a woman's main priority is to bear children and not do anything else. And I'm sure you'll agree with me that women are capable of so much more. Well, yeah, we've got an entire programme about that. It's been going 75 years and no time of uh no no sign of tiring i think the other thing though is it shows a misunderstanding

of what boxing is about i love watching you i love watching it and it is very much about what goes on in the mind as well isn't it yeah it is it's so i'd say boxing is probably 40 percent um physical and 60% mental because you have to be so mentally prepared when you get in the ring. You're dealing with the performing in front of crowds, the millions that are watching around the world. And it's just you and your opponent in the ring.

Once the bell goes, your coaches can't get in there and help you. All your friends and family can do is just cheer you on. It's a lot of pressure. You've retired from professional boxing. How do you spend your energy now? The physical energy and who do you play your mind games on, Nicola Adams?

I still work out. I like to keep myself very fit and healthy. My mind games, I guess. I like to play with my dog. We have a lot of fun. I like teaching him new tricks.

I wish we could see you back on Strictly. I'm so sorry that your time now came to such a short end. Are you jealous? Are you watching it even this season? I've been trying to catch bits of it. I'd love to go back on there, but who knows what might happen in the future? Never say never. I've caught little bits of the show, but I've just been really, really busy. Well, I'm imagining you still having a bit of a dance here and there as well. Are you

still practicing what you learned? No, I haven imagining you still having a bit of a dance here and there as well. Are you still practicing what you learned? No, I haven't had time. Well, we're happy you had a bit of time to talk to us this morning. Nicola Adams, thank you so much. That documentary is called Lioness, The Nicola Adams Story. Thanks so much for your company today. Back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, I'm Professor Stephen Pinker. We all want to reason more clearly and to make better choices about everything from life and love to medicine and money. But even the best of us get things wrong. I would have twice as many billions

if I just made a different decision. I mean, of course, one can always learn from other people's mistakes. It's ideal to do that. Each episode is a conversation with an expert on rationality and someone who deals with our corresponding irrationality in real life. Rarely do we sort of walk around living out probabilities. Oh my God, wait, 90% prevalence. It's hard to sort of hold on to that in real life. I hope you'll join us as we try to make sense of making sense and hopefully to make better decisions. That's Think with Pinker from BBC Radio 4.

Subscribe now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

Available now.