Woman's Hour - Being diagnosed with ASD at 27; Parlour songs; Child protection conferences

Episode Date: December 22, 2020

We heard earlier in the pandemic that in-person meetings for vulnerable children had become mostly impossible. But now child protection professionals feel that face-to-face conferences are unlikely to ever resume. So what does that mean for the children in question? And what is missed as a result? Journalist Marianne Eloise was recently diagnosed with Autistic Spectrum Disorder, aged 27. She says it finally gives her an explanation of why she has found it difficult to simply exist; from experiencing extreme sensory overload in situations others find normal, to never being able to make small talk. Marianne joins Jane to talk about her personal breakthrough and why she believes it’s harder for women and girls to be diagnosed as autistic.The mezzo-soprano Patricia Hammond is celebrating the parlour song. Composed by women, these domestic songs of the Victorian era have largely been marginalised or forgotten. In her new book and CD, She Wrote the Songs, she tells us about the women behind the songs and their importance to musical history.Listener Prue wrote to us about a recent discovery that’s made her question her past. For her seventieth birthday, Prue, a family history buff, got a DNA kit from her nieces. There were no surprises with the results about her geographical origins. Then she realised could also find people with matched DNA, and she was shocked to find out her late dad was not her biological father. Since then Prue’s been trying to find out who her father was- with the help of people she’s met online. Jo Morris met with Prue at her home.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Jane Garvey. It's the Woman's Hour podcast from Tuesday the 22nd of December 2020. Hi there, good morning. Today we look at parlour songs and we'll talk about the women who wrote the big hits of their day. And guess what? Didn't get the credit they richly deserve. Also this morning what it means to get a diagnosis of autistic spectrum disorder and another really intriguing family secret for you on the programme today. Now earlier this year we talked about the problems social workers were having trying to assess children who might be at risk trying to do assessments via FaceTime, for example. Now, child protection professionals feel that face-to-face child protection conferences

may never happen again. Is this something we all ought to be concerned about? Lisa Harker is from the Nuffield Family Justice Observatory. Lisa, tell us about that first of all. What does that do? Well, the Observatory is an organisation which seeks to improve outcomes for children and families by making sure that all the professionals who are involved in child protection and the family courts, so social workers, judges, barristers and solicitors, receive good information from research and data about what matters for children. So we're sort of bridged between academics who study this area and the practitioners who work directly with families. OK, tell me then about child protection conferences.

Why do they occur and who is at them normally? Well, these are really important meetings in the child protection process they're the point at which professionals have a worry about a family and the safety of a child and they call a meeting to draw together all the evidence that they have and to discuss that with the family and to make a plan so it's the point at which it's important for the family to give their side of the story, for professionals to exchange information. And where they work well, a good plan can be put in place

to make sure that a child is safe and no further intervention is necessary. And so what has happened during the pandemic? Well since lockdown began in March child protection conferences have been heavily disrupted, face-to-face meetings have stopped and in the main they've been held by video conference and in some research that was undertaken by King's College London, which we've recently published, we found that there was quite a disconnect between how professionals saw these remote conferences and how parents were experiencing them. In the main, professionals could see the advantage of working in this way. In particular, it's very challenging to bring together all these professionals.

There might need to be a meeting with school teachers, the police, other health professionals, a GP or a psychiatrist, and also the social worker working with the family. And pre-pandemicemic it can be difficult to get everybody in a room so professionals have found it easier to do that by video conference but

families that were involved in the research almost universally said that they found it much harder to be involved via video or in many cases joining a meeting by phone. And this would be families who are joining by phone because, not because that's what they wanted, but because they didn't have a laptop, for example. Yes, they don't have the right technology to join in. They might not have the right bandwidth to be able to fully participate in a video meeting. And as you can imagine, are you know a number of professionals discussing a child discussing a parent's parenting it can be a very intimidating occasion at the best of times extremely difficult to join such a meeting by by telephone when you can't see who's

there or really understand what's going on. And parents talked about really not feeling that their voice was heard, not feeling that they fully understood who was talking at which times or having the paperwork in front of them to really figure out what was going on. But what has happened in practice, Lisa? Has the way these conferences have been taking place led to more children being taken into care? Well, it's early days, of course. Social work across the board has been affected by the pandemic.

And it's been extremely difficult for professionals to work in such a remote way when so much of their work depends on building relationships with families. So there's been a sort of slowdown in the amount of work that's taken place. And since September, when schools returned, there's been a real pickup in the amount of child protection work happening. So we won't know for some time the full effect in terms of children's lives. But it's clear that as we come out of the pandemic ultimately when social distancing measures are eased that there's a real need to ensure that we don't hold on to practices that are beneficial to professionals rather than very difficult for families okay rather than to the people about whom major decisions are being made. But you do seem genuinely concerned that because this current system suits the professionals, in fact, we won't go back to face-to-face meetings.

It's still an open question. There was a sense from the research that we published that professionals did not expect to go back to full face-to-face meetings, although many local authorities are now exploring a sort of hybrid approach, where a social worker can go and see a family in their home, socially distanced, with PPE and so on, and help them take part in the conference from their own home while others join by video.

So there are innovations happening, and of course it's important that we learn and build on those. What really matters at the core of all this is the safety of vulnerable children, Lisa. And what do you feel? Do you feel that they are more vulnerable as a result of these meetings taking place in this way? Where child protection works works well the right children are subject to further intervention or possibly taken away from their families when they are at risk of abuse or neglect but equally there's a risk that children may be taken into care who shouldn't be given that families are not fully engaged in discussions

about their children and their parenting so it's important in both ways to ensure that the families are able to fully participate to make sure that the right children can stay with their families in their care sure and the right children to be taken into care who are at risk yeah i get with respect i get that and i think most of the listeners will get it too but with their families in their care and the right children to be taken into care who are at risk. Yeah, with respect, I get that, and I think most of the listeners will get it too, but as the professional here, what would you want to happen to make sure that we do our absolute utmost

to protect the most vulnerable in our society? How do you think these conferences should be conducted? Well, you know, it's written into our legislation that as part of this process, parents and sometimes children should be involved in these early meetings to make sure that all the information is available and there's the best chance of supporting a family

to look after a child. So the most important thing is to ensure that as a result of the changes that have been brought in with the pandemic, we don't overlook the need to fully engage families in the process at the earliest stage. So I'm going to push you, I'm afraid, Lisa, you think they should be done face to face? I think they should be done face to face. And I think the local authorities who are already putting in steps to ensure that they can be done even in these challenging times where we have to be socially distanced are beginning to recognise the importance of doing that. Thank you very much that's Lisa

Harker from the Nuffield Family Justice Observatory. You can contact the programme at BBC Women's Hour of course on social media and the text number 84844. But text, of course, charged at your standard message rate. And, of course, we also get your emails via our inbox. I'm going to read a very long one now and a very personal one. But the listener actually, well, she puts it to you herself. She has a question for you at the end of it. And if you feel you can answer it, then you can tell us what's happened to you.

So here we go with her email. I've never emailed the programme before and I want to remain anonymous. But I did feel it was important for me to raise the issue of bullying by my own teenage sons. I wonder whether there are other single parents out there who've also been through this. It took me seven years to make a decision to divorce my husband, who was abusive both mentally and physically. Part of the reason for waiting so long was to do with my own fear, a disbelief that I'd married somebody like this, and the shame of society and my religion around divorce, even today. We'd been married for 20 years, and I'm employed in a profession. I would

not be described as a shrinking violet by my friends. Following an acrimonious 18 months in which both I and my children, who were seven and eight at the time, were mentally and physically abused, I thought that life free of such behaviour would be much better. I agreed the children could spend some weekends with their father. This continued with me intervening when the children were frightened for some years. The children and I were relatively happy. However, they're now teenagers and they seem to be replicating the behaviour of which I was so fearful. They have turned into bullies, they swear, they're aggressive, they demand domestic services without lifting a finger to help me as a single parent.

And in some instances have become violent. Social services are powerless to help because the children, in collusion with their father, have not agreed to cooperate with the authorities. I would dearly love the children to have counselling, but this has been poo-pooed. It feels now as if history is repeating itself. Are there other single parents who've been through this? And what mechanisms have they adopted to assist and support their bullying teenagers? I would not wish the next generation to suffer as I have,

and for my children to make inappropriate choices based on their own unhappy experiences in the past. So there you are. That listener will, of course, remain anonymous. And she's throwing it over to you. Do you have a similar experience you'd be willing to share? Have you been through this? Have you found the right sort of help? You can email the programme to via our website, bbc.co.uk forward slash Women's Hour. Now to something much more cheerful, a really fascinating little bit of social history. Let's talk to the mezzo-soprano Patricia Hammond who's celebrating the Parlour song. Patricia, good morning to you. How are you? Good morning, very well. Excellent. Now your book, it's a

lovely looking book I should say, called She Wrote the Songs, Unsung Women of Sheet Music. So tell us, first of all, exactly how we define a parlour song and where are we in time here? Well, my particular survey goes from the 1830s to about the 1930s well actually 1950 and it kind of follows the heyday of the of the you know when people would play music in their own homes yeah and you would buy the music and replicate it at home because well radio and recordings hadn't become that, you know, well, they weren't invented or they were just not the major, I don't know, music, means of musical sharing. Well, what were the means of musical sharing?

The parlor piano and before the piano there were harps and there were parlor guitars and the ban the banjo and and things like that the sort of home played instruments and i suppose you could say the parlor song is um technically perhaps a bit easier than some of the major kind of operatic arias and things like that okay um yeah it's interesting territory this isn't it because you know you believe very passionately that these women have been dismissed and their work has been cruelly dismissed or just totally ignored. So let's hear some of this. You are the voice here, we should say, you're the singer. Oh yes, the demo I was talking about, yeah. Tell us about the first song, which is Bless This House. Who was the composer? That's May Brahe. The words are by Helen Taylor.

It was written in 1927. And it became a kind of a prayer for domesticity and the sanctity of one's own space, I suppose. And it was very popular in the Second World War as a result. Okay, let's hear it. Bless This House. Bless this house, O Lord, we pray. Make it safe by night and day. Bless these walls so firm and Keeping want and trouble out Bless the roof and chimneys tall Let thy peace lie over all Bless this door that it may prove ever open to joy and love.

Now, didn't Harry Seacombe sing that? Yes, he kind of made a joke of it. He'd sing it at prisons and things like that. Oh, I see. Right. OK. But it also has a strange link, at least to my mind, to the American presidency. Can you just tell us about that? Yes. Well, it was performed at two inaugurations.

Dwight Eisenhower and his wife Mamie loved the poem so much that she had it framed and hung it everywhere in the White House while she was there and then in their successive houses. And also at the inauguration of George W. Bush, the second inauguration after 9-11. So in the same way, it's very interesting parallel would be the Blitz. It became a huge hit during when when London was being bombed again as a kind of prayer. And also at the funeral of FDR Franklin Roosevelt in 1945. And apparently, according to its composer, May Brahe,

Franklin D. Roosevelt's fireside chats in the 1930s, early 1930s, were on many radio stations preceded by this song yes and it's sentimental but it's not ludicrously saccharine is it no i mean that's the thing a lot of people talk about um they talk about the parlor song as being oh sentimental and domestic in a way to belittle it and this is particularly true historically. I mean, generations of critics have spent their time just dismissing the entire genre for the reasons of domesticity and amateurism, which is kind of interesting considering that, say, the Madrigal, that was written, they were written for amateurs.

They were written for the home. You were singing your Madragals after dinner. And same with Lieder. I mean, the German Lied, you don't hear people saying, oh, Schubert's Lieder, written for the home, written for amateurs. Do you know what? I think Woman's Hour is on to something, isn't it? It's women do get underrated, Patricia.

We've only been saying it since 1946 here. Yeah. And a particular cruelty of the whole dismissal of this entire genre is the fact that this genre was the only way that women composers could actually create and express themselves. Well, let's hear another one. Tell us about this. This is Perfect Day, A Perfect Day. Tell us what you know about this one. she was from Australia and she died in Australia but she made her career in in England but Carrie Jacobs Bond was American and she was a single mother and her husband had died and she had no means of supporting herself she tried to accept she would paint tea sets she would do do paintings of roses on tea sets and she also could write and play songs and sing them. And she tried to get publishers interested in her songs. And they said either

that they were too highbrow or that they were not highbrow enough. And there you have a lot of Carla songs. People say that about. So she decided she published them herself and she became a millionaire. Here we go. Here's A Perfect Day. When you come to the end of a perfect day And you sit alone with your thoughts while the chimes ring out with a carol gay for the joy that the day has brought Yes, I can see people, whilst enjoying it, Patricia,

also hurling things at the radio and saying, well, you didn't live through a pandemic, love. But I guess, go on. It was a big, big success in the First World War, that one. Well, and that doesn't that put everything in perspective? We actually need to hear that. So thank you for saying that. Okay. I mean, I really want to talk just very briefly, if you don't mind, about sheet music and the women who demonstrated sheet music because that was another way of we talk about um spotify and other streaming music these days well they were the streamers of their day weren't they yes yes i mean it was it was a lot of this music was by women for women so for women to to play in the home for their friends and also as a means of making money.

I mean, you could sell your sheet music and make money. And I do apologize for speaking fast, but there's just so much to say on this subject. But yes, so you had women and men who worked in sheet music departments to demonstrate in the shop what, you actually see this in The Good Old Summertime, the character that Judy Garland plays, and she sits there with harp and sings. Oh, I can't remember the song she sings. Someone will know, don't worry.

They'll tell me, but carry on. I know, but I can't think of it. And she sings it so that people will buy the song and also the little harp that she's demonstrating, which is quite fun. And actually Ethel Merman started her career as being a sheet music song demonstrator. Yeah, I mean, it's amazing.

They literally sat in their department store and played the music and people thought, oh, I'll buy that. Fantastic. Thank you so much, Patricia. Really enjoyed talking to you. Take care and happy Christmas. That's Patricia Hammond, the author of She Wrote the Songs, Unsung Women of Sheet Music.

And you also heard, of course, her lovely voice because she is a mezzo-soprano. Thanks to Jenny, who says, I can remember my granny singing when you come to the end of a perfect day. Thank you for that memory. Oh, well, that's good. We've reminded Jenny of her granny. So no bad thing.

Now, Prue is a listener who wrote to us about a discovery that really has made her question her past. For her 70th birthday, Prue, who's a bit of a family history buff, got a DNA kit. Now, there weren't any surprises with the results about her geographical origins, but then she realised she could also find people with matched DNA. And she found out that her late dad was not actually her biological father. Since then, she has been trying to find out who her father was with the help of people she's met online. Jo Morris met Prue at her home and first she asked what impact that news had had. I've had a few shocks in my life. This has grown to be one of the big, if not the biggest thing in my life

because it's about my own identity. It's about me and who I am. It's a my own identity. It's about me and who I am. It's a primal thing. I have to know. And I can't rest till I know who he is. Who is my biological father? I'm just having a look, checking my phone to make sure nobody's come through and found my dad.

You never know what the latest message will say. So how much time are you spending on this during the day? All the time. Really? Yes. So this person here, you can see here, that's the one who's helping me and she's already written something to me today. She's taken the loneliness away from it, you know, when everybody else has forgotten and that sort of thing, and I've got more wound up about it. So how's it been affecting you then? I sit in the same seat every day with my laptop on my lap,

and I'm thinking and thinking and thinking and looking at family trees and looking up old newspaper cuttings, and it makes me feel better to be working on it, like an addict almost, you know, that's my fix. Right, we'll have a look at the pictures. That's my sister and me. I don't know if we look alike or not there. We're both blondes.

What's the age gap between you? 16 months. So she came 16 months after you were born. Yeah. So quite close together. They sometimes call them make-up babies, I've heard that. Ah. What do you mean by that?

I don't know. I suppose maybe it does mean if there's been some sort of problem. So was it a happy marriage between your mum and dad? Not really. We know my mum had a hard time, so... So what did you think, Prue, when your nieces brought you a DNA kit for your 70th birthday? What did you think?

Lovely. It was a lovely present. There was about to be an explosion of people doing DNA tests and finding out that their fathers aren't theirs and all sorts of secrets. You'll have lots of skeletons coming out of cupboards. And the more I thought about it, possibly could explain the mystery of why I felt like I did and why I had always felt like I did.

To find that your whole life has been a lie and your identity is not what you thought it was, it's shocking. How does that feel? I feel betrayed. I feel angry. I understand, but I still feel angry. And it makes me feel sad as well. And I still have trouble believing that my dad isn't my dad because we got on so well and we looked quite alike. Were there any other signs or comments about this when you were younger?

Anything that, looking back now, you think, oh, yeah, I remember that? My mum occasionally would say that my father thought that I was the daughter of a Canadian M, and that's what it was. And I used to think it was probably a post-war joke that everybody said to everybody. She'd say this to you? Yes, to me, yes. We were a very, very open family. There were no no-go areas.

We'd talk about everything. And so when I asked her about it, she used to say, haven't you noticed how your father reassures himself by emphasising how little features of yours are the same as his, which he did. I've got a biggish nose, he did, and we both had knobbly knees and things like that. And it's true, he did do that, but I never probed or asked. I didn't say, why would you think that? Because I thought it was a joke.

I wish I had probed it now. So that was one of the first avenues we started, you know, Canadian Airmen maybe. Do you wonder now why she said that to you? I do actually and really looking at it now of course it was a perfect opportunity to open up the whole subject and if I'd have known more. But it just shows how certain I was that I was his. Who do you think knew about this? My family I said to my family do you know my close family and they had not got an inkling and then I spoke to my cousins my more distant cousins and they said well actually we had heard some whispers and I said please you know think of

whatever you can think of it's the only clues I've got. The two words they came up with were prisoner of war and acquaintance of the family. That was it. What do you mean, that's what they came up with? That's the only words they could remember in relation to whose I was. What, because they were young kids? They were young, they'd listened in to conversations.

And the one who could remember eavesdropping like you do and one of them remembers their mother having a go at my mum because she thought she told me or something they just heard little snippets so they kind of all knew I mean skeleton in the cupboard and this is families for you know do they do they protect I think I think that's what it was about protection. Nobody said anything. Is there any part of you that's deep down not surprised by this? The part that's felt so awful all my life? I suppose deep down I've always felt like a cuckoo in the nest and my family have reminded me, my close family,

that I have said that to them occasionally. I've always felt different. A feeling of aloneness and sadness. Always sad. The feeling that something was wrong. That's what it was. Something was wrong with me. The family, our little family,

which at that point was mainly my mum and my brother and my sister, have, I think, probably quite a similar sense of humour and quite light-hearted in lots of ways. They were more laid-back, not so intense, that's probably the thing. I think I was probably the intense one, the responsible one, the serious, more serious one. And was it noted in the family that you were different? My mother used to point out that my moods, she used to say Prue's having her isms. I felt I was always trying to get her love and I felt my sister had her love. That's what I felt.

And that might be completely wrong, but that's how it felt that I had to work for it. What do you mean? Earn it. I was always there for her and I absolutely adored her. And right through everything, when she got old and all the rest of it, I was there for her and I absolutely you know I adored her and right through everything you know when she got old and all the rest of it I was there for her. Why do you think that is? I felt I had to sing for my

supper I'd really felt I had to earn her love like I said I think my mother could have treated me differently because of it. As I say, not because she meant to, and I really want to stress that, but because I probably did remind her of it, and she could feel guilty easily as well. And yet she did an amazing job, really. So how much do you know about what was going on around the time of your birth? Now I have found out quite a lot. I found out that like lots of people my mum was in the land army up in the Northampton area with her sisters-in-law. When were you born Prue? 47.

I know my mum had a breakdown when she had me, and that's, again, just a hearsay family thing. I don't know, it must have been a really hard time for her, and they just had no money. So you were told she had a breakdown, and do you think now maybe that's because she was...? Well, it could well have been, couldn't it? I mean, I knew where I was born, it was in a thunderstorm and all that sort of stuff.

She said all the nurses went and hid because it was such a bad thunderstorm. And left her by herself. Yeah, yeah. But I can't work out at what point, you know, whether my mother conceived me in Northampton or Surrey and when my dad actually got back from the war. But for him to be on the electoral roll suggests maybe he was there

or maybe you automatically put the husband's name on the electoral roll, even if they hadn't come back from the war, I just don't know. How did your mum and dad treat you growing up? Well, my dad wasn't around a lot. He didn't come back till we were about 11. Where was he? He just ran away a lot. He was lovely, but he was very irresponsible.

He wasn't up to the job of being a dad. Did you know where your dad went? No. We used to say, where did he go? What's he doing? We were told he was in hospital like you do with kids. I was always scared that he was going to go again, that he would disappear.

Do you think your dad knew? I think he suspected, but he could see what I could see, that we looked alike. So, yeah. And I was probably the closest to him. And he loved classical music. And he used to take us out into the countryside to see the sun coming up and things like that, which wasn't a mum thing to do, she didn't like classical music. And those were things that I really related to with him and felt that I was probably quite a lot like him in lots of ways. You see there, I think he looks like he's got my nose, my chin. I must admit, I mean, looking at him there, if you said to me that's your dad...

You wouldn't think so? No, I wouldn't question that. I can see a likeness, I can see why people said that you look like him. wouldn't think so. No, I wouldn't question that. I can see a lightness. I can see why people said that you look like him. That's why I kept saying, is the test right? Has it changed how you feel about your dad, knowing this? Not at all.

Other people point out to me what damage he did as a father by not being there, how terrible it was for my mum. I mean, I should really be very angry with him, but I can't. I know intellectually he was an awful father, but from an emotional point of view, I just loved him. At the moment, still no idea who your biological father is? No idea whatsoever. Oh, my God, yeah. Who the blooming blooming hell is it how did your nieces react when they found this out of course they bought you the dna kit didn't they wow aren't you prude more like

that but again i think a lot of people didn't realize the impact including them and understandably because i don't think i would realize the impact on people they were interested in what I found out and if you hadn't done the DNA test of course you'd never have known this would you no I wouldn't have a clue and people say are you glad you got it all and that's a hard one isn't it it is a one. If it comes up with some answers about why I am as I am, then it will be perfect present if it makes me feel better. Has this changed how you feel about your mum? No, I don't blame her at all. I feel sorry for her.

It must have been a terrible shock, awful to live with. No, not at all. Do you think your mum awful to live with no not at all Do you think your mum wanted to go with this secret to her grave? Yes I think she must have done I nursed her when she was ill for a long time and she had plenty of opportunity to tell me

but she didn't so Yes all of which leaves Prue with questions now we have been in contact with Prue because that interview with Jo Morris was recorded back in 2018 and she told us I am now one DNA test away

from finding my late biological father and potentially three new brothers so that's the latest from Prue. Now, many of us are living longer. How could our lives change for the better as we get older? What conversations do we need to be having? How should we be looking after our elderly population? These are all questions we will attempt to answer on the 30th of December.

That's next week. I'm losing track of time already, but that is next week. So join us for that programme on December the 30th of December. That's next week. I'm losing track of time already, but that is next week. So join us for that programme on December the 30th and let us know what you think about that issue via the website. If you, like me, just fell upon Strictly

on Saturday night, just ravenous for something cheery, you will be delighted to hear that Oti Mabusi is going to be on Woman's Hour tomorrow. She is incredible. I think it's the second successive year that she's been part of the winning partnership. So Oti on Woman's Hour tomorrow.

Now, Marianne Eloise is 27 and was recently diagnosed with autistic spectrum disorder. Marianne is able to talk to us now. Marianne, good morning to you. How are you? Hi, good morning. I'm well. How are you? Yeah, not too bad at all.

Thank you. Now, Marianne, just tell us about the impact of the diagnosis set the whole thing up for us what stage in your life were you when you pursued a diagnosis well it's a very long story but um I had had a lot of difficulties growing up and like as a child and stuff. And, you know, from my teens, I was working in bars and stuff, which is obviously a very social, overwhelming environment. But I didn't really start to consider there might be something more going on until I started working in an office when I was 22. And that's when I started pursuing a diagnosis. What happened in that office then it was just like I say I'd had a lot of difficulties you know either whether it was fitting in or with you know sensory overload or um sticking to schedules stuff like that at school um and in bars and stuff but it just wasn't as bad whereas it's something about you know I mean

everything about waking up that early sitting down trying to make my brain work in the same ways and exact same times other people the like sensory overload of like noises and like people chatting and tapping and eating and I just I couldn't do anything I just shut down I just didn't do any work for months basically there are expectations aren't there about conduct in an office um reading about you last night I was thinking about this most of us take it for granted I'm not sure we think about it at all but it made me think about it um small talk is something made me think about it. Small talk is something that I think you'd always struggled with. Is that right?

Yeah, which is obviously like, like I say, it's less of a problem when you're at school and stuff, because I was quite like solitary. But if I made friends, we bonded over like similar interests, and we could just talk, you know, I have a lot of friends, but they're all friends I have, you know, through things we're interested in. I'd never had, you know, I have a lot of friends, but they're all friends I have, you know, through things we're interested in. I'd never had, you know, in bars and stuff, I think you escalate to a deeper conversation a bit faster. Whereas in offices, I just, I felt like I was going mad. I just couldn't speak. Like, you know, I would say the things I thought I meant to say.

Like I would ask how people's weekends were, like whatever. And then I just, it's impossible to know what's appropriate to say back or what to say after that if you're not, I don't know, if it doesn't come naturally to you. So the really interesting thing is the diagnosis and what difference it's made. So tell me. Well, so basically it took me five years to get diagnosed because obviously the

NHS is a mess like there's you know cuts and stuff mean that they focus on people who seem the most in need which is fair enough and you know seeing as I've made it to my age without you know I've made it to my age I wasn't a a high priority. So it took a long time. But in that time, in those five years where I understood myself, but I couldn't explain it to anyone else because I didn't have the language to, it was just really lonely. Like I got another office job and because it was for a website that I'd written before, before I thought it'd be easier,

but it just, it's just the environment. It was just like, so I ended up having to leave work, go freelance. And then obviously that worked better for me. I was a lot happier just, you know, at home working, minding my own business, like community, communicating in ways that work for me, but the diagnosis just meant finally I could actually explain to other people and maybe ever be in those environments again you know and well okay well how have other people treated you since the diagnosis I mean for the most part a lot of my friends and stuff and my boyfriend I've been

you know I'd explained to them before what I thought was going on and tried to explain I've always even before I knew I was autistic I tried to explain what I need you know I said to people I need you to be direct with me like I need I cannot you know something I really struggle with is if people try and make me pick up on like unwritten social codes and don't tell me why they're angry at me or any of that I can't it does not you know I just I say like what I've been now I I don't know I find that with the diagnosis people are a lot more understanding and willing to you know um but for the most part I don't know no one in my life treats me differently um I find that sometimes people like online stuff are like a little bit patronizing are they tell

me about that I don't know like I get like you know people tweeting me saying I'm like so brave and so like um pure and like so innocent and like you know because whatever and I'm like I'm an adult woman like I I have like you you know, a degree of like, I don't know, excitement about stuff and like, you know, whatever that maybe some adults lose. But it's like, I don't know, if you wouldn't have called me like pure a couple of years ago, maybe don't now. What would your advice be now to your adolescent self? I'm thinking about people who might well be listening now who either recognize themselves or recognize somebody else in their life. What would you say about that? I think if you recognize someone else in your life, especially if it's, you know, especially if they're very young, like if they're a kid or a teenager or something,

you need to, you know, no one pursued that for me. Like I think especially with social stuff and whatever like you don't really know that you're different or that you're struggling so I think it takes a really long time it takes a lot of people telling you that the way you communicate is like wrong somehow and then you just end up thinking that you're wrong so I would say that people need to be you know if you think somebody in your life is autistic especially be extremely straightforward like explain to them that you think that's the case explain to them that you know try and take them to get assessed and whatever explain to them that you know it's not a bad thing and that

being diagnosed will mean that they can get the help and support they need you know and if people see it themselves and they're adults i guess the only thing they can do really is you know advocate for themselves and pursue that do all your your research and just, you know. Well, I was going to say it's a cliche, but it's certainly something we've talked about on this programme before, that girls and women are diagnosed less frequently and they are diagnosed later. And really briefly, if you can, Marianne, do you believe that you were encouraged to mask it or that you simply did mask it um I think that when I was much much younger I didn't really mask it but no one I think when you're younger no one really I don't know like when I was at school I just I sat on my own I read on my own I played

weird little games on my own all through like play school and like school like I didn't I guess I didn't really start masking it until I was like a teenager and like you know being weird as I was like less accepted and like I guess once I started having to like be around like teenage girls is when I started to like, you know, try and mimic other people and try and copy other people. And I think people do encourage you because, I don't know, like I said, I worked in bars and, you know, customers would say, you know, you're not looking me in the eyes, you're not doing that.

And, you know, however uncomfortable it was, I would start trying to just to avoid that. Yeah, it must have been a struggle. That is the young journalist Marianne Eloise talking about her diagnosis. And that prompted quite a lot of response, actually. Here is Tracy on email. I was diagnosed with ASD this year at the age of 51. I've known I was on the spectrum for about 20 years.

And for me, that diagnosis was really positive. It was life-affirming. All the things I'd struggled with suddenly made sense in the context of my brain being wired differently rather than a deficiency. I love science, reading, knowledge and information. The only thing I'm sad about is thinking about the many moments where my communication with others has been hampered by my neurodivergence in a neurotypical world and always feeling like it was my fault. I'm so glad that more girls and women are being diagnosed, but it needs to be earlier so the world can accommodate and accept neurodivergence. Thank you for that. Another

listener says, my 78-year-old mother is clearly on the autistic spectrum, but has no interest in pursuing a diagnosis, preferring to think of herself as, quotes, eccentric. Whilst I fully appreciate this is useful for her, for my sister and I, it's been a lifelong struggle trying to understand her way of being. We lacked affection and there was an apparent lack of empathy. It would have been helpful to have a shared framework of understanding within which to progress our relationships. Okay, and another listener says, I'm 52 and I've been waiting for 18 months so far for an assessment for ASD after my teenage daughter was diagnosed with it last June. What I do know is that there's very little and more often no support for autistic adults or children and young people. I'm an autism ambassador and I feel I have a very good understanding about autism but there

are things that my daughter and myself both struggle with And if diagnosis occurred earlier in life, that might have made some aspects of life a little easier. Thank you for just telling us about your own experiences here, because I must admit, this is obviously outside my, well, I say obviously, it happens to be outside my own experience. So it's always interesting to get your perspective. A lot of you really enjoyed Patricia Hammond talking about parlour songs. Elfie says, really, really nice this morning to hear Bless This House. My mum, Rosalie, used to sing this in variety shows back in the 50s.

She'd appear on stage in a ball gown and she'd sing like an angel. Thank you, says Elfie. And another satisfied customer, Pat. Thank you for playing Bless This House. My dad used to sing that all the time. When he was younger, he used to sing it in the working men's clubs around Leicester. You have absolutely made my day, says Pat. Well, that's good, Pat. Happy Christmas to you. However, there's always a downside, and this is G, who reminds us. In the 19th century, the vast majority of women were in homes without pianos

there was massive poverty sheet music for pianos was produced for a tiny proportion of wealthy women in rich households the vast majority lived in urban slums or rural hovels get real woman's hour right I don't think at any time I suggested that every single person in Britain lived in a house with a piano in the 19th century. But yes, thank you for that reminder and a very happy Christmas to you. Now, what else should we talk about? Our first conversation this morning about child protection conferences. We had some really interesting reaction from this personal stuff. This is from a head teacher.

During lockdown and this term, I've had cause to be in attendance at four of the above sorts of meeting, child protection meetings. And I have to remain anonymous, obviously. Well, that's OK. I complained after the first of these was held using telephone conferencing. It was highly unsatisfactory for the families and for the education input. We were very much on the outside. This could not possibly be conducive to a fair meeting, and I have been to many of these in person.

Following my complaint, the children's service team in one of the local authorities that I work within altered the phone conferences to Teams conferences. That's Microsoft Teams, isn't it? So that everyone could be seen and heard equally. And some parents did join using their mobiles. A tablet and a dongle can be provided to those who don't have the appropriate technology.

This must surely be a base expectation. Child protection conferences via phone line should be outlawed. It is not safe and it's not a fair way to carry on, especially when dealing with such potentially life altering decision making. Thank you to that anonymous head teacher for that. I cannot wait, says another listener, until we get back to face to face child protection conferences. Yes, Teams and Zoom are more time efficient and yes, they allow us professionals to work from home. However, what we miss by not being in the room is the stuff that really matters to families. Another anonymous emailer, I'm listening to your

piece and my family has recently had a relevant experience during the interview where a professional spoke to the child concerned via video call there was no assurance that the child would be in a safe space where the parent who we know to be manipulative would not be directing proceedings or listening in and causing the child to alter their account in favor of the manipulative adult. There's another insight from Sylvia. Just listening to your programme about child protection conferences, wondered if you'd explored child parent advocacy for the families, which I'm sure is still available in some areas. We haven't looked at that as far as I'm aware, but perhaps that's the topic for the new year. We could certainly look into it now.

Thank you. Someone else says, my service has been doing hybrid, bringing the family into the conference with the chair and others joining by video. The families prefer it as they feel less intimidated and more supported. But please don't imagine social workers

can just take children into care. Parents either have to sign and agree and can remove at any time or a family judge makes that decision. There is a very high threshold for removal. Yes, I mean, I think most of our listeners will know that that decision is not that of the social worker alone. But thank you for making that clear. Many other perspectives involved, of course, in those clear many other perspectives involved of course in those decisions which are of course extremely important and the final one just listening to your topic of social work and as a child protection social worker i have to share that i disagree with

what's being said our video conferences and meetings are effective and being very well managed parents have access to smartphones and don't have a problem in accessing these. Should they have a problem, we ensure they are supported. In addition to this, the local authority I work for, should a parent not have a suitable phone, will buy one for them and set them up so they are able to join. Right, so many different challenges just thrown up by the pandemic, obviously. And I know that months ago now, and I think it really was months ago, we did talk to a social worker. I can remember it vividly, who was having to assess a child's safety via FaceTime, which, you know, I have to say, I wouldn't. I don't know whether that's something that we could really be happy about happening.

But I'm obviously not a professional in the field. And I thank heavens I'm not because I couldn't do the job, I don't think. I just wanted to read this email, which is actually about yesterday's programme, where we talked about the coast in Sussex and spoke to one of our powerlisters, Carolyn Cobbled, about the Medmerry flood prevention scheme. And we got this really interesting email from Barbara, who lives in that part of the world, in East Wittering. She said, I had to catch up with the item because when it was actually on,

I was in the middle of a click and collect at Sainsbury's. Can I just point out that if you are going to listen to a woman's, you have to fully engage. It's no good doing it alongside your click and collect. You've got to give it your full give it your full attentional whack but we'll forgive Barbara because she has written a very interesting email to say I live in East Wittering one of the settlements along the coast to the west of Selsey the nature reserve created by breaching the coastal defences is a delight and it's fantastic for bird watchers one thing to add to the interview there were quite a lot and it's fantastic for bird watchers. One thing to add

to the interview, there were quite a lot of doubting Thomases about that scheme beforehand. The final breach took place early in 2014. On the 14th of February 2014, there was a massive storm, the worst I've ever known in the area, and the village of Pagham, which often floods in storms, was saved as the seawater flooded into the breached area exactly as intended, thus vindicating the scheme. There we are. If you missed that conversation about coastal realignment, you can hear yesterday's edition of Woman's Hour on BBC Sounds. And actually, yesterday's programme was good. I can't remember what else was in the programme now, but I do remember thinking we had some great contributors. Oh, I know, Keris Matthews was on, and we talked too to the poet Liz Berry. And so if you're in need to sort of be cheered up a bit,

yesterday's edition is not a bad one to get hold of via BBC Sounds. Thank you for engaging with this podcast. Jess Crichton is here tomorrow, and she is very lucky. She's talking to Oti Mabuse. Before you go, I'm Miles, the producer of a brand new podcast for Radio 4 called Tricky. This is how it works. Four people from across the UK meet up and without a presenter breathing down their necks, talk about issues they really care about.

Sex work is quite complicated for a lot of people and it's okay to be against it but not to shame someone because of their profession. Across the series we'll hear anger, shock and even the odd laugh. Another thing that really gets to me is when people say, I know what we need to do, I know what black people... shut up! You don't, like that's the thing. That's not how it works. Nobody knows. If you knew, you would have done it. Discover more conversations like this

by searching Tricky on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story.

Settle in. Available now.