Woman's Hour - Being lesbian in the military, Roe v Wade overturned, Shireen Abu Aqla

Episode Date: June 27, 2022

Dame Kelly Holmes came out as a lesbian last week. The Olympic champion served in the army in the late 1980’s, when you could face prison for being gay as a member of the military. Dame Kelly spoke of her worry that she would still face consequences if she were to let her sexuality be known. It wasn’t until 2000 that a ban on being gay and serving in the Army, Navy or RAF was lifted. Emma Riley was discharged from the Royal Navy in 1993 for being a lesbian, she joins Emma in the studio alongside Caroline Paige, joint Chief Executive of Fighting with Pride.American women are starting this week with a newly re-drawn map of the United States, in light of the Supreme Court's landmark overturning of Roe vs Wade last Friday, which gave women constitutional right to get an abortion nationwide. Today, abortion is legally banned in at least nine US states - with more to follow as so called trigger laws clear the necessary hurdles. For some this is a time of huge shame, sorrow, bafflement and fear - the clock turned back on women's rights. For others - the supreme court's decision represents a victory - the success of a long fought battle against abortion being a nationwide right in America. But for women who are pregnant now and don't want to be - especially in states where even abortion providers are unclear if they will be prosecuted should they go ahead - what should they do? Emma hears from BBC correspondent in Washington DC Holly Honderich, journalist Hadley Freeman and Dr Jan Halper-Hayes, former Global Vice President for Republican Overseas.A memorial service will be held in London tomorrow for the Palestinian-American journalist Shireen Abu Aqla who was killed while reporting in the occupied West Bank last month. On Friday, the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, said the bullet had been fired by Israeli security forces - something the Israel Defence Force disputes. Emma is joined by the BBC’s Middle East Correspondent Yolande Knell to talk about Shireen.It's the first day of Wimbledon, and current world number 11 Emma Raducanu makes her centre court debut this morning, playing against Alison Van Uytvanck. This is her second Wimbledon, but her first since winning the US open last year. Molly McElwee is the women's sport reporter for The Telegraph and gives the lowdown on Emma’s form.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. What a weekend, eh? In so many ways. Whatever you were doing, whether that included dancing, camping or a bit of both or neither, one thing is for sure, come today, come this Monday morning, Americans are starting this week with a newly redrawn map of the United States in light of the Supreme Court's landmark overturning of Roe v. Wade, which gave women the constitutional right

to have an abortion. That was until Friday afternoon, UK time. As I talk to you now, abortion is now legally banned in at least nine US states, with more to follow as so-called trigger laws clear the necessary hurdles. For some, this is a time of huge shame, sorrow, bafflement and fear. The clock turned back on women's rights. For others, the Supreme Court's decision represents a victory, the success of a long-fought battle against abortion being a nationwide right in America. Today, as always here on Women's Hour, I want to focus on women, and specifically women who are pregnant now, who do not want to be, living in America, especially in states where even abortion

providers are unclear if they will be prosecuted should they go ahead with procedures. What should those women do today, tomorrow, this week? I also want to do another thing we always do here on the programme, give you the chance to say what you think, how you come at this story, from what perspective. Let me know on 84844 text will be charged at your standard message rate, that's if you want to do it that way you can get in touch with me here on the programme via our website, through email or on social media

at BBC Women's Hour Over the weekend here in the UK and in London especially a protest gathered outside the US Embassy, because that's where it is of course and many women also took to social media to share their stories of having an abortion. Billie Eilish, headlining Glastonbury on Friday just after the news had dropped stateside, had this to say on the pyramid stage.

Today is a really, really dark day for women in the US. And I'm just going to say that because I can't bear to think about it any longer in this moment. Well, that's what Billie Eilish had to say. But what do you want to say? Please, as always, feel that you can use this space, that you can use Women's Hour to say what you think, think or feel or want to say in connection to this story. Just to say again, it's 84844. That's the number you need to text me here at Woman's Hour.

If you wish to try and talk to me, we'd also like that. If we can, you can leave your number. Email me through the website, the Woman's Hour website or on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour. Also on today's programme, Wimbledon begins. Not right here, I should say. But a lot of hope resting on one woman's shoulders, Emma Raducanu.

We're going to try and put ourselves in her shoes and catch up on the latest to do with our superstar. And in light of the former army sergeants and Olympian, as she's probably better known, Dame Kelly Holmes, coming out last week, we're going to explore what it's like being a lesbian in the military now and then. All that to come, so stay with me here on Woman's Hour. But first, to America and the aftermath of the Supreme Court's decision. In the new America, it now depends which state you live in,

whether or not you will be able to get an abortion. Already abortion clinics are closing down. Holly Hondrick, our BBC correspondent in Washington, DC. Holly, welcome back to the programme. News broke, as I said, on Friday afternoon. What has happened since? There's just been a frenzy of activity on both sides. We saw protests the entire weekend. We're expected to see a summer of rage, what the Women's March is calling it, from the pro-choice side. So on the anti-abortion side, we've seen the promise to enact statewide bans, near total bans, even some threats to amend the U.S. Constitution to ensure that abortion is banned throughout the entire country. And on the pro-choice side, we've seen the opposite.

We've seen legal fights as states' bans go into effect. So far, nine states have outright bans. About five more will have immediate bans. And then by the end of the summer, I'd guess about half of US states will have bans on abortion or bans that are so restrictive that effectively there's outright bans. So it's kind of been a clash. I think all of America was sort of overwhelmed with emotion on Friday, whether or not positive or negative. And you just talked about that with five more bans, five states looking to ban abortion coming in. So just looking across the map and I see some of the media organisations in America have got a map that's kind of rolling to show how things are changing. I mentioned so-called trigger laws at the beginning in my introduction.

Some of these bans came in immediately because states were prepared with their laws ready to go, and there's some more time to elapse. Is that right? Yeah, it's sort of confusing, and I think, frankly, people in the media, including myself, have used trigger bans as a blanket term, when in fact there's a variety of them. So we've got bans that have existed since before Roe. So they've just kind of been sitting on the state books

that have been not allowed because of Roe. They will come in. We've got new bans that were written in the past two years. They may come in. But even some states like Mississippi, who's actually the state that we were sort of dealing with all along, they're the ones who brought their case forward. They have a rule that a ban can't come in until 30 days after the Supreme Court rules. So it's a little bit less

like a light switch. That's how a pro-choice campaigner told me. It's not like you see the lights go out across America, but some states are working incredibly quickly. Again, nine states moved quickly. This came in on a Friday, right? So they worked through the end of the week to get this done. I think, yeah, about four or five will come immediately quickly. And then the rest, the remaining up to half of US states will roll in in the coming weeks. The picture gets even more confusing when you look in each state, what an abortion means, because there are also different rules as to what a ban means, whether it means an outright ban on all forms of the procedure, or if there are certain extenuating circumstances, exceptional circumstances, as they would say, the number of weeks is also in play in certain states.

It is actually very confusing to look at what's meant to be the United States of America to get a picture right now. Yeah, and I think, frankly, for a country that's a bit smaller than the US geographically, you do have like 50 countries that are going to be ruling on this in different ways. But I do think, I mean, we should stress, even though there might be some states, like Missouri has no exceptions for either rape or incest. And you have a state like Utah that does allow exceptions for rape or incest. And you have a state like Utah that does allow exceptions for rape or incest. But I do think we should think about these almost as if they're all banning abortion outright

because the restrictions will be so difficult. So women are going to have to have two appointments before they can get an abortion. There often can be laws about which doctors can perform them and the restrictions are almost so difficult it's impossible to acquire. Or we have bans coming in,

this is not a number I'm pulling from a state, but four weeks, when men and women don't even know they're pregnant. So I think it's important to look at each state, but the general effect will be about up to 40 million American women. This is according to Guttmacher, which is a pro-choice organization.

40 million American women will live in states that are hostile to abortion rights, which means a pro-choice organisation. 40 million American women will live in states that are hostile to abortion rights, which means incredibly difficult to obtain an abortion. And to my question, which we'll come to with our next couple of guests in a moment, but from your perspective as someone reporting on this and keeping across the facts for us at the BBC, what will that mean for women right now who are pregnant, who do not want to be, where we are seeing some delays with some changes and some states where you still can get an abortion? Are we seeing women trying to get pills, trying to travel? Are we seeing charitable efforts in that trend with those sorts of donations? I would say for some women, we're just seeing utter heartbreak. There were some really moving stories over the weekend of just utter chaos at abortion clinics on Friday. I read a story out of Houston be punished to the fullest extent of the law if they are caught.

But then to your point, I think there's been a surge of requests for abortion pills. Saw that over the weekend. Abortion pills are actually now the most common method of obtaining abortions in the U.S. About 52% of the procedure is done that way. So a push to send pills out to women who need it, a push to donate to organizations that can help women travel. But this is all complicated by the anti-abortion movement, who are promising to legislate and ban anyone mailing medication into states with bans, and ban the travel of women. So if I lived in Oklahoma, say, I wouldn't be allowed to drive

to California. So I think for some women, say, I wouldn't be allowed to drive to California. So I think for some women, they might be even scared to do anything about it. If you try to travel as a pregnant woman who does not want to be, you could be stopped. Not as of today, but those are things that are being discussed with utter sincerity by the anti-abortion movement. Does that actually seem feasible to police? If that is being, I mean, so we don't have that yet. Sorry, I don't wish to put that out as if it is. But as you say, these are what's on the table for some places and some of those who have influence. Is that something we think will happen? I think if you talk to the anti-abortion movement, they say, yes, we will be banning travel. And then you speak to the anti-abortion movement, they say, yes, we will be banning travel.

And then you speak to the pro-choice movement and they say, think about what that means. Right. So we will like if you're most anti-abortion activists, they would never punish the mother because she's a victim as well. That's generally the phrasing. But I think there's a lot of concern on the pro-choice movement that if I travel to California I come back to a hostile state to abortion who do you punish right California has already said they're not going to punish their doctor that leaves me that leaves the pregnant woman so I think there is a lot of concern about what that's going to look like for people seeking this procedure and again with with banning abortion pills I'm not sure how you check the mail of every you know pregnant woman in a state, but that is

something being threatened. I can't imagine. Yeah. And I was also just going to say, Holly, the other development over the weekend is some businesses offering to pay for female staff members who find themselves in this situation to travel if they need to or have support if they're living in, as you put it, a hostile state to abortion. Holly Hondrick, we will talk again. Thank you for getting up very early for us. The BBC correspondent in Washington, D.C. Let me talk now to an American journalist whose home is England, but has been going back and forth, of course, between the two countries for many years. Hadley Freeman, good morning. Morning, Emma.

What's your reaction today, I suppose, a couple of days on to this as an American in Britain? Well, it's just heartbreaking. I don't think anyone can be in any denial anymore that America is in a state of just horrific moral decline. I moved here in the early 90s and I'm just incredibly grateful that I did. I left before gun drills were a common part of schools for kids. I was here when I needed an abortion when I was in my early 20s. There was never any question in my early 20s. There was never any question in my mind about that, never any problem. When I did have my children, I was able to take long maternity leave, unlike my friends in New York who had to go back to work after two weeks.

And now I live in a country where women still have bodily autonomy, which my friends in America don't. So for you, this is a good place to be in comparison. And yet you will still have your friends, as you mentioned, living in the US. What have they been saying to you over the past 48 hours? Well, what's so shocking, I think, for those of us who are my age, I'm in my 40s. You know, when we grew up in the 80s and 90s, America was still seen as this kind of moral leader, rightly or wrongly. And certainly for the past five years, there's been this feeling of shame about the connection to America.

I mean, it started earlier. One could say it started with Bush, but really with Trump. We've just seen America lose any kind of moral standing in the world. And now we have a country where children are regularly gunned down in schools. Politicians are incredibly resistant to doing anything about it. Although I should say that at the end of last week, the first gun laws were passed in decades in America by Biden. He did actually manage to get some strictures put in. But now we live in an advanced country, one of the richest countries in the world, that not only has no mandated paid maternity leave,

but now no access to abortion for probably half the women in the country soon enough. I mean, it's just it's shameful and humiliating. Yeah, I mean, of course, many also over the weekend making the point, I know you say you're happy to be here in the UK, but until very recently, you couldn't get an abortion in Northern Ireland. And it's still practically speaking, it's still actually very tricky,

despite the change that has been made there legally, an issue we are only discussing with the Northern Ireland Secretary of State, Brandon Lewis, very recently on the programme. But coming back to the US, I know you've also got a take on Roe v. Wade as a piece of legislation, which is important for what happened on Friday. Tell me that. Well, Roe v. Wade was always a very fragile piece of legislation. Ruth Bader Ginsburg, for example, thought it was wrong to hang the constitutional right for abortion on it.

I personally feel that these arguments are almost missing the point, because most Americans who get an abortion or even just have an opinion on abortion haven't read Roe v. Wade. They don't care about it. What they care about is if women have a right to bodily autonomy. The problem with having it in the Supreme Court rather than it being codified into law, as Clinton and Obama should have done, is that it's meant it's been fragile to the makeup of the court. And as a result, the issue of who gets to a point at which judge has become an increasingly fraught issue, particularly since Reagan. It doesn't matter really what the fragility

or otherwise of it, people just have these very strong reactions to it. And the issue is really, has never really been about abortion. The issue has always been about control. Do you feel ashamed to be an American at the moment? I feel ashamed for America. I don't feel ashamed to be American. My children also have American citizenship. I feel ashamed for America. And I really feel at this point that there's,

I can't imagine ever living there again. I wouldn't, you know, I've got a daughter. Well, I've got a daughter now. And first of all, I thought about moving back to America a few years ago and the whole guns in schools things just freaked me out so much. The idea that I'd have to think every time I drop my kids off at school, is this the last time I see them? Or even are they going to have to do a gun drill today? And will that traumatise them in a way? But now to think that my daughter would grow up in a country where she'd have no paid maternity leave and no control over her body.

I just can't see why would I do that to my daughter? I mean, of course, I'll hear from one in a moment, but some Republicans may say that not all states will be hostile to abortion. There will be. So what? So then we have different countries within a country? Well, that's a very real situation, isn't it, right now? It is the situation right now. I increasingly feel that California, why wouldn't it break away from the country? California is so different. It has its own economy.

We can have a Cal exit in America? It's just ridiculous. You tweeted over the weekend, banning abortion never actually bans abortions. It just bans safe abortions. And everybody knows it. And we all do know that. That is what happened before Roe v. Wade.

And if these judges cared so much about babies, the unborn baby, why aren't they prosecuting the men who get these women pregnant? And why don't they then improve maternity care in America? Being pregnant in America is still incredibly dangerous. In some states, 118 more times more dangerous than having an abortion. Yet they don't care.

Hadley Freeman, thank you for distinguishing some of your views there and also talking about that shame as an American versus for America. I think a lot of people getting in touch around what they think of America as well this morning and how they feel towards it. It's important to hear from someone who is American and living here in the UK. And we can do that again with Dr. Jan Halper-Hayes, former Global Vice President for Republican Overseas. Good morning. Welcome to the programme. Good morning, Emma. Thank you for being with us. What is your reaction a couple of days on now to this redrawing, if you like, of the map of America like this? Well, we anticipated things like this, but this has always been something that the states should take care of. And the reason that I believe that is that part of the Constitution does not want the

federal government interfering. And we in America, in essence, as your reporter said, are like 50, we are a republic, we are not a democracy. And so they want people to have control. For example, in Alaska, if you have restrictive gun laws, that is trouble for them because they have to go out and kill thing that seems to be a confusion. This was never a constitutional right. It was not an inalienable right. It was a legal right. And there needs to be that distinction, partially because it feels like I understand the emotional reactions, like everything's been taken away from us. But everything hasn't been taken away from us, but everything hasn't been taken away. And the other thing is that some of, I call it fear porn. You know, there's going to be a reverse on gay marriage and you're not going to have birth control. And

I'm against that kind of gaslighting. Can I come back? Sorry, you just put two points there. Can I come back to what you call fear porn in a minute as to why some may not think it's fear porn? Can I just address what were not able to get an abortion and you were pregnant and you didn't want to be. If you were that woman this morning, Jan, waking up in America, thought you were going for an appointment perhaps today or tomorrow, what should you do? Well, first off, if I was pregnant because of incest or rape, I would be furious that I could not do that in my own state. And I would end up going to another state where I could be taken care of. What if you haven't got any money?

You know what? Employers are offering to pay abortion clinics, Planned Parenthood. What if you're unemployed? You know what? If you're unemployed, it still doesn't matter. Go to Planned Parenthood and they'll help you get someplace else. There are so many NGOs that will support these people. how someone should decide for their body. But I also think that we live in states and we elect state legislatures who support our particular values. You may not have voted for that state legislator. You may also, I should just distinguish

because I didn't say this, you chose to add that on. You may not have been, as you say, a victim of incest or rape. You may just be pregnant and you don't want to be. And you may not have been as you say a victim of of incest or rape you may just be pregnant and you don't want to be and you are now living in a state where you can no longer get an abortion you may not be able to get to planned parenthood who have had funding issues and offices closed down you may not be able to get to an NGO so what are you now are you now meant to

in America one of the top countries in the world in various permutations, whether that's wealth or leadership or whatever, you are now meant to have that baby against your will? You know what? That's taking it to an extreme. I think that's quite a norm right now, isn't it, Jan? It's a really, really tame example of a reality for a lot of women right now waking up in America in nine states. In nine states, but they knew it was coming. They knew it was coming. And, you know, there were 68 million abortions in 50 years. Where do we talk about the right for the unborn? You know, and to, I'm speechless because I think when you go to those extremes and you ignore the other possibilities, the other issues, then you leave people with this impression that America is disastrous. It isn't disastrous.

In fact, I would recommend two people that you should have on the show that have been the two key people in leading what happened with Roe v. Wade. And they can clear up a lot of this gaslighting that's going on and all these additional fears. I'm very happy to take those names. You can give them to me now on air if you want, or we can talk afterwards. I know that you have lots of connections to us here at the BBC, especially with your former role, but you talk about gaslighting and extremes. I wasn't using the extreme of an extreme cruelty of being raped or incest. I was actually just talking about women who are pregnant and do not want to be. I accept what you're saying there about the rights of the unborn. We have some messages from our listeners to that point, and I will not ignore those.

I will read those messages out faithfully. But actually, it's I think to accuse me with my example, maybe I misunderstood, of gaslighting is also not a fair representation of the question. oh, you better not drive between state lines. That kind of gaslighting and fear porn is taking away from us looking at this factually. I love facts. Jan, I'm all about, we've spoken before. We've spoken when you were in your previous role and talked about your position politically.

That's all I'm talking about. I'm literally talking about the facts. I'm talking about women who are pregnant and don't want to be. And I'm just wanting to know what they should do if they live in those states if they also don't have the means to travel and from your perspective as you've answered fairly there about NGOs and Planned Parenthood that's the route you see if they are in such positions as well as of course talking about it in the round. Just when you mentioned fear porn before if I can I'm very short of time but you did mention it in light of other areas.

And I think what you were talking about is the concern, you correct me if I'm wrong, that contraception could be the next target of the Supreme Court. The reason people have that fear is because of one of the justices, Clarence Thomas, in his opinion, wrote in future cases, which is how you refer to what he's written. Sorry, not just his opinion. In future cases, we should reconsider all of this court's substantive due process precedents, he said, including Griswold, Lawrence and Obergefell, which is referencing three landmark decisions of the past with regard to contraception, the repeal of anti-sodomy laws and the legalisation of same-sex marriage, respectively. That's why people, some people, are concerned. Do you accept that? Because it's come from a justice on the Supreme Court. I not only accept it, but when I read it,

I thought, I'm going to join the people protesting against that. I think it's taking it to a really far extreme because that is reversing a way of life. With abortion, you still, in some states, have the event. You can make the choice. But to take away the birth control or to take away the ability for two people of the same sex to join together, that is taking us back to the 17th century,

and I'm totally against that. Dr. Jan Halperhuis, we appreciate your time this morning. Thank you. The former global vice president for Republican Overseas. I'm very happy for us to be able to get those two names from you as well, as I'm sure we will have many more discussions about this going on, looking at America and the rights of women and also those who have fought for this for a very long time as well.

Messages coming in from you listening. Thank you very much indeed for these. How can this be real? This is deeply troubling and horrifying, talking about the overturning of Roe v. Wade. The clock has turned backwards 50 years. I went on Women's Right to Choose marches back in the 70s.

It makes me very wary of visiting the States if that's the predominant view of the people there. And yes, I feel very sad for all those for whom it is not the belief that the state has been given the power yet again over women's bodies. It's not as if there's an adequate social welfare system to even support young mothers. Another message here.

I'm overjoyed at the Supreme Court's decision to be more democratic regarding abortion, says Maggie. Another one that. I'm overjoyed at the Supreme Court's decision to be more democratic regarding abortion, says Maggie. Another one that's just come in. I'm 70. We fought hard for our rights to termination. I remember backstreet abortions and the danger for women. Men should never be involved in the right in the decision to abort. Religious fervor in the US is at the root of this decision. Women are being coerced by men to agree with this decision, it seems. Women are on the planet contributing to society. Women are on the planet contributing to society of fetus.

Isn't it bizarre and sad that women are not being considered, says Kate. I'm not often driven to text, read this other message, many more messages coming in, but I just had to stop the car to do so. I cannot describe how depressed I feel. Not a word I use often about the Supreme Court decision. Personally, I wouldn't want an abortion, but how dare they?

No woman wants an abortion as a form of contraception. It's a desperate choice and women must be allowed to choose. Gilead is here making reference to Margaret Atwood's books and talking about that. And if you like The Handmaid's Tale coming to life. Dot, who's listening in Wales, good morning. The overturning of Roe v. Wade was a good news day for the human rights of the unborn baby.

There are plenty of people wanting to adopt unborn babies. And so it carries on. Another one to that point, it might be a dark hour for some people, but a bright hour for an unwanted baby and another one Emma I'd like to know how many men there were making this decision a decision that affects only women taking away their human rights please keep your messages coming in there are many 84844 is the number you need to get in touch with me here at the program or you can do

it on social media at BBC Women's Hour. Now it is the first day of Wimbledon. I can almost hear the sound of it. And one player that people will be keeping a close eye on is Emma Raducanu. The current world number 11 makes her centre court debut this morning playing her first round match. And this is only her second Wimbledon,

but her first since winning the US Open last year. Molly McAuley is the women's sports reporter for The Telegraph. Molly, good morning. Morning, Emma. Thanks for being with us. A tough first match for Emma. Who's she up against? Tell us more.

She's up against Alison van Oytbank. She's a Belgium player, world number 46. And yeah, I would say it's quite a tricky draw for her. Van Oytbank is pretty good on grass. I wouldn't call her a grass specialist, but she's been having some great results. And she's also no stranger to a big match at Wimbledon. A few years ago, she beat the reigning champion, Garbine Muguruza

here in the second round. So I'm sure she'll be up for the big centre court crowd today. We were talking about this before we came on out. You couldn't quite believe here on the team, you know,

this is only a year on from what happened to Emma at Wimbledon last year. What a year it's been with, of course, that US Open victory. But with Emma becoming a household name, becoming a face of many brands, you know, it's still a lot, isn't it, for her at this age

and stage? Definitely. I think the best, I mean, the best marker I've had so far of how far she's come since last year was we were talking to her um over the weekend um and she said i haven't last year i didn't do any press and obviously she had a full press day on saturday and i arrived this morning at wimbledon station and there was a huge um billboard of her as it greets you as you walk out of the stadium um so and, and she addressed that as well. She said how surreal that still is to her, that her face is kind of so recognisable now to the crowd here and to fans across the world,

you could say. So, yeah, it's going to be a lot. And even though she's obviously had the high pressure moments at the US Open, I think this today, her first ever match on centre court in between Djokovic and Andy Murray's matches, I think this is going to be one of the biggest moments of her career. Very short career so far. Very short career with a lot in it so far.

And just in case people don't remember what happened at Wimbledon last year, could you just remind us and how do you think she's feeling in terms of that? Because it's a very particular thing that happened with the pressure of it all. Yeah, I mean, she obviously had an incredible run last year. This was her first Wimbledon. She came in as a wildcard and had never kind of performed on such a huge stage. She was effectively still just a junior graduating to the pros because she'd only just finished her A-levels.

And she went on a very memorable run to the fourth round and in the fourth round played on number one court, so the second show court. And yeah, she was quite overwhelmed by the experience i guess she had some breathing difficulties on call and um she actually was forced to retire and advised to retire by um by the the medical team um but that definitely did not take away from the impact she obviously had at these rounds last year in front of the home crowd and yeah, she went on to do amazing things in New York. So she definitely has that champion mindset in her.

Yes, retire. It's going to be big. And I was also going to say, retire from that match, not from tennis already at that point when you used that phrase. Well, thank you for, if you like, being our warm-up for it. Molly McElwee, the women's sports reporter for The Telegraph.

Thank you to you, of course, getting us ready for Emma Raducanu to take to centre court in not too long, actually, as Wimbledon begins today. And of course, Andy Murray limbering up as well. So I'm sure the tennis fans amongst you will be thinking a little bit about how's it only been a year

since we really learned of Emma Raducanu or watched her. Maybe some of you knew earlier, but for the rest of us, perhaps getting on board with her work and her approach. Well, last week, sort of keeping, I suppose, with sportswomen just for a moment, Olympic champion Dame Kelly Holmes came out as a lesbian and she's posted about it on social media. She put a few words down, but one of the phrases was she said,

I can finally breathe. But what added an extra layer to her secrecy was actually her previous job, because long before she was an Olympian, Dame Kelly served in the army in the late 80s, at a time when you could face prison for being gay as a member of the military. Last week, she spoke of her worry that she would still face consequences if she were to let her sexuality be known. And I should say, it wasn't until 2000, the year 2000, that a ban on being gay and serving in the Army, Navy or RAF was lifted. Last week, the government announced a review into the impact this ban had on LGBT plus people serving in the armed forces. That review will be led by Lord Efferton, who was the first openly gay senior judge in the UK. Here's Dame Kelly Holmes speaking to the BBC's LGBT and identity correspondent,

Lauren Moss, last week. And Lauren asked Dame Kelly why she'd chosen to come out now. I got COVID really bad and I just thought, you know what, if I, at some stage, we're all going to pass away. And I thought, I don't want to pass away with my friends and family being at my funeral saying it wasn't a shame she couldn't live her life. We're very happy you're here. Can I ask you a bit about this week, the details of the review announced into the ban on LGBT people serving in the military was announced. How important do you think it is that that happens quickly and

will you be taking part or involved in that inquiry? Yeah, I'd like to. It's really important because there are people that have suffered through all of that time that don't get any recognition for, firstly, the service, but also the treatment that they were given. They don't get that respect that this should never have happened. You've got to talk about people that were court-martialed, jailed, lost their careers, Mae'n rhaid siarad am bobl a oedd wedi cael eu llyfru'n ystod y cyfnod, wedi cael eu llyfru, wedi colli eu gyrfaoedd, wedi'u hwylio, wedi'u hwylio, wedi'u hwylo o'u ffrindiau teulu a'u cydweithwyr. Pan maen nhw'n gweithio ar y llinell gyntaf ac yn ymwneud â'r ffordd gyntaf, nid yw'n iawn, nid yw'n gwerthfawr bod hynny wedi digwydd. Roedd y llyfr yna ddim yn ddigwydd, a newidodd ym mis 2000. Mae'n ymwneud â'r gweithiwr gorau ar hyn o bryd ar gyfer cymdeithasau LGBT+. and it's actually the best employee now for LGBT plus rights. Anyone can be anyone in the military now.

And the thing is, I've always had a love-hate-love relationship. I'm a colonel with the Royal Armour Corps. I have been for four years. So I don't hate the army or the military, even though what I had was a very suppressed life because of it. Dame Kelly Holmes speaking to the BBC's Laura Moss on Friday. Rather noisy LGBT awards if you're thinking what was that noise in the background but it's very good to hear her voice and and some of her experience. In a moment I'll be speaking to

Craig Jones from the charity Fighting With Pride about that review I mentioned from the government but first I want to talk to Emma Riley who's just joined me in the studio. Emma served in the Royal Navy from 1990 to 1993 until she was arrested and discharged for being a lesbian. Emma, good morning. Good morning. Which still feels almost just so odd and hard to say that that happened to you. It's something that when I speak about it, it's always going to be hard to talk about. Well, I thank you for coming to talk about it because it must be very emotional and important to you to share what happened. Absolutely.

And I was very thrilled to be asked to be part of Dame Kelly's Being Me documentary that went out last night because I think what she needed to do as part of her journey was to understand a little bit more about what had happened to other people at the same time when she was in the military. I can completely understand her complete fear about would she be charged or would there be any kind of repercussions later on because you live your life in complete fear that you're going to be found out. And she was lucky in some ways that she wasn't actually outed and arrested as part of her military career. She was a hair's breadth probably from that kind of reaction that happened to me.

I mean, I basically went out one evening and told somebody that I thought was my friend that I thought I might be gay. And they basically phoned up the military police and I was arrested the next day. Yeah horrendous it's it's got a huge legacy for people who've gone through that as far as trust issues and all sorts of things. I want to come to that but for you that was somebody you were serving alongside? Yes yeah. And and you were just talking to them as a friend? Yeah, I'd had a really hard time. My father had just had a quadruple bypass operation. He had not had a great operation.

They'd had to open him up twice. He was having blackouts. It was not a great time in my life. And at the time, I was feeling I probably was gay. How old were you at this point? 21. 21, okay. I joined at 18 straight out of school.

And yeah, I loved being in the Royal Navy. I was relatively good at what I did. But yeah, I told this person I thought I might be gay and it was literally pretty much the next day they got me up and said, get up, get dressed, get downstairs, you're under arrest. And what happened after that? They take you away.

You spend, well, maybe two, three hours get downstairs, you're under arrest. And what happened after that? They take you away. You spend, well, maybe two, three hours in a police interrogation. It's a recorded interrogation to SRB, so Special Investigation Branch. Officers are asking all these questions, trying to find out, basically trying to get you to admit everything and so on and so forth. I mean, you're in there with these two people. And then I also had a chief friend with me who was supposed to be my support through the process.

And I was getting really upset. So they stopped the interview for five, ten minutes. And I said something, I don't recall what, in that space where it wasn't being recorded. And the moment that the investigators came back into the room and pressed that record button, the chief friend told them exactly what I'd said. So at that moment, I know I am completely and utterly alone in this journey.

Completely alone. And what happened after that? They go through every single item that you have. They take you to your block and they stand you outside your room and say that they're going to go through every single item that you have. They take you to your block and they stand you outside your room and say that they're going to go through everything. They went through all my letters. They confiscated stuff in there. They confiscated a Suede album because it had two people

who might have been two women on the front of it. They confiscated a Julian Clary video because, of course, everybody who watched Julian Clary is going to be gay. Of course. The funniest moment, I I suppose looking back is that just before they went into route through all my stuff um the woman who was going to do it asked me um do you have any um electrical equipment yes your face is kind of saying what I thought at the time. And I said, well, no. But frankly, if you went through pretty much any women's gear in a women's block in the Royal Navy, you would find plenty of electrical equipment. So it's all about, as Dame Kelly said, it's all about humiliation and punishing that person for something that is inherently part of their DNA.

So they're looking for names. They're looking to follow the line to find the next person and to root people out. It was a real witch hunt time when nobody was safe. It was horrendous. And then the worst thing that they did to me in some ways was that they then sent me home to tell my parents. And you hadn't told your parents?

I hadn't told my parents, no. So not only am I being sent home to tell them that I'm being thrown out of the military, something I don't want to do because I don't want to disappoint them. You know, my parents were incredibly proud of me for going in there, but I had to come out to them as gay a force coming out and it was with not your choice not my choice I was terrified and I'm thankful to this day that when I told them they were hugely supportive but I can um I can see that that moment in my memory I know exactly

the room I can picture it I can picture every single chair exactly where I was sitting where my parents were sitting and it's just seared in my brain that I had to go through that. And you were discharged? I was discharged yes and how I suppose I could call it a lucky discharge in that it was a discharge sure so it was a what they'd quote as a an honourable discharge so in my case nothing I kept my pension and I kept some of the rights. I didn't, unlike the other gentleman that Dame Kelly spoke to, I didn't have that red writing at the top of my reference saying, discharged with disgrace.

But that doesn't stop you from then having to completely redraw your map of the world. I came out of there, spent maybe five or six weeks just at my home address, not knowing what the hell I was going to do. And then had to build a career of some thinking. You know, I've just never had a career plan because my career plan was ripped away from me in 1993. And you were so young. 21. Yeah. What has been the lasting effect of that process on you? A lot of it boils down to trust issues. I have a real big problem opening up and being vulnerable with anybody. And so it really took, well, I mean, the way I dealt with it is that it took me five years before I felt I could do something about it. But it's probably taken me 25 years to really be comfortable properly comfortable in my own

skin and things like for example I sing with a choir and um you know as you're getting ready to go on stage you might be changing somewhere and you you've got to change your costume you're putting makeup on or whatever you need to do but But basically there was a long, long time when I was so paranoid that people would be concerned about me being gay that I would almost find a corner so I could look in the corner and not have to look anywhere else in the room when people were changing because I was so terrified that people would be thinking I was some kind of predatory lesbian and looking at them in the wrong way.

I was worried that if somebody was upset and I put my hand on their shoulder to say, you know, it's going to be okay, that they were going to take it the wrong way. So it just completely changes the way that you interact with people. And put something in your life which may have developed in you with confidence and very something in your life which may have developed in you and with confidence and

and and very natural as your sexuality made it feel like it's not right in some way because of you losing your career yeah yeah i'm very sorry to to hear that and of course for others who know nothing about this they will still not be able to perhaps conclude that it was only in 2000 yeah it's changed yeah and that was literally, I was one of the few people that took cases against it. So I tried in the UK, it was myself first at the Ministry of Defence and it wasn't going to go anywhere. And that was like, it took me five years

to even start that process. And then in 1998, we took the case to the European Court of Human Rights and there were four headline cases and myself and another couple of people who were also coming through at the same time. And even then, it took until September 1999 before the European Court ruled in favour of those four headline cases. And then after that, mine. And forced the UK government to change the law on January the 12th of 2000. And I totally would tell you if that European court had not done that, if we had not taken those cases,

we still would have that ban in place for at least another decade, at least. And the amount of people, there were at the height of it, 300 or more a year being thrown out on the basis of sexuality. So that's thousands and thousands of men and women who are good, patriotic, you know, people who have been denied this opportunity to serve their country just because they are gay. It's very sobering for a lot of us listening, including me. You know, Susan said some message here. I'm listening now. This is horrific treatment of a woman. I had no idea this kind of, as she puts it, persecution went on.

I don't know if you would also feel comfortable with that. Yeah, I think persecution is a very good word for it. Yeah, she says persecution that went on in the 90s. Another message here is it's a terrible hearing what happened to LGBT plus people in the military in the past, but not too distant past it. It isn't that rosy now, reads this message. People are still subjected to bullying, abuse,

and there's also sexual harassment because of who they are or who they love in the military. It's an anonymous message. Yes, I mean, Dame Kelly mentioned the irony is the military is rated as a good place to be if you are LGBT+, but what's your view of that? I think having, I briefly went to speak at the Compass, which is the Royal Navy's LGBTQ network,

about three, two years ago now. And that was the first time I'd been on a military base since I'd been thrown out. That was a very, very weird day for me. You're surrounded by the smells and the sounds and the movements that are always there. But what was really thrilling for me is to see that change, the fact that the network was even there.

They were asking for somebody like me who'd changed that law or helped that law to come about. It was the questions that they were asking, the thoughtfulness behind what they were trying to get to was amazing. And then seeing on Dame Kelly's Being Me documentary last night, when she was speaking to, for example, the two boxers, the Olympic boxers, I unfortunately don't remember the names, but one of them who'd been in the army. The fact that those two people, including the person who'd been in the army, had no idea that there was even a ban in place 20 years ago. That must make you feel...

It just blew my mind. I bet. It really blew my mind. Let me bring in Craig Jones now, the Joint Chief Executive of Fighting With Pride. That's a charity supporting veterans and serving personnel who are LGBT+. And Craig, I believe you served in the Navy until 2008. Is that right? I did. I served for a little less than 20 years. And I remember listening to the announcement of the repeal of the ban in my cabin in HMS Fearless on that fateful day. And the first thing that

struck me was what an incredible loss of some remarkable women and men who stepped forward in the service of the United Kingdom and were treated with abject cruelty. And I feel a great deal of sorrow for people like Emma, who did an amazing job and were so poorly looked after. To the review, because this is something you have been fighting for and it links to that last point. What are your thoughts on it? Do you have been fighting for and it links to that last point. What are your thoughts on it? Do you have confidence in it? And what sort of, if there is or should be, compensation do you think might help? Well, we've been campaigning for two years, recognising the fact that today's armed forces are a lot better than they were 20 years ago. They've made incredible progress. But in the 22 years since the ban was lifted, nothing has been done to go back

and dust down these amazing veterans and support them to a better future. They have no pensions. Many have criminal convictions for offences that have no place in modern law. They have housing problems. They're outed to their families and friends. They were removed from military service.

They need compensation, and it's right and just and fair that they should get that. They need their pensions to be reviewed. But they also need to be honourable people. They were dismissed in disgrace. And it will take a great deal of work to recognise that there are actually incredible men and women who wear the same medals as all other veterans, but were treated so shamefully as they step forward to serve. So I think there's a great deal to do. But the good news is that after two years of campaigning, we have the independent review. And we're thrilled to see Lord Etherton in the seat.

Lord Etherton is, of course, one of the most senior judges in the UK. But really important to us, when he came out, he said that he came out because he felt a sense of duty to do so. Well, as veterans, we understand duty. And this is the moment now which we find out what happened to these amazing veterans. We take account of it and we help them to a better future. And I hope that hundreds and thousands of veterans will step forward to the review or to Fighting With Pride so that we can connect them and so they can tell their truth.

Craig Jones, thank you very much. Emma Riley, thank you to you for coming to talk today. I know that you have spoken before, but I'm sure it isn't easy each time. But also people don't know still, like you say. Yeah, it is slightly shocking that it's still so much of a surprise. But to me, it's shocking that it took 20 years for the government to give us an apology and another two to start this review. It's incredibly important. We will see how the review goes and I hope we'll talk again. Thank you very much. Thank you.

Now, a memorial service will be held in London tomorrow for the Palestinian-American journalist Shireen Abu Akhla, who was killed while reporting in the occupied West Bank last month. The Al Jazeera journalist was shot in the head while reporting on a raid by Israeli forces in the city of Jenin. She was wearing a protective vest with the word press on it as well as a helmet. On Friday, the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights said the bullet had been fired by Israeli security forces, something the Israel Defence Force disputes. I'm joined now by the BBC's Middle East correspondent, Yolanda Nell.

Yolanda, thank you for joining us. I just wanted to start on a more personal note, if I can, and hear if you knew Shireen and what contact you'd had with her. I mean, Shireen was a very familiar figure, not just to like tens of millions of people across the Arab world watching Al Jazeera Arabic, for whom she was really the face of Palestinian news and a household name. But, you know But she was somebody whom I knew casually. I often worked alongside someone who was very close to my Palestinian colleagues because she's somebody who really started her career through the bloody dangerous days of the second Palestinian intifada going back to the start of 2000.

She covered five conflicts between Israel and Gaza, the Lebanon war in 2006. So you can imagine somebody that you get to see in the thick of things. My Palestinian colleagues were very close to her. I was used to just chatting to her, seeing her sometimes for nice things like the Christmas celebrations in Bethlehem, where we all gather and stand on the rooftop of the local council. Or, you know, I also think the last time I saw her was during tensions in the old city of Jerusalem, which was just a few weeks before she died. And I bumped into her, said, you know, hi, how are you? I observed I hadn't seen her for a long time because during COVID times we all work differently.

And then, you know, two weeks later, I was on leave in the UK. And one morning, woke up, read the messages on my phone. And, you know, unfortunately, there have been a lot of messages recently saying that people have been killed as a result of the conflict. But when I read her name, it was just a huge, huge shock. And it was for everybody that knew her. Well, in terms of her as a leading figure, a leading journalist in the region, it was also, and I thought we should just take a moment on this programme to mark this, it was significant that she was a female journalist as well in the region and had been for a long time. That's right. And she was somebody that really sort of redefined things.

A lot of young women journalists, because Shireen was 51 when she was killed. And when you speak to younger, especially Arab women reporters in their 20s and 30s, they grew up watching her. I mean, she was someone who was incredibly hardworking. Al Jazeera do quite exhaustive coverage of the situation here. I mean, I think she's associated with really kind of quite fearless coverage of the conflict. And young women say that she was an icon for them. She wasn't somebody who was sitting in the TV studio with her makeup all perfect. That's quite common in the Arab world to have a female presenter. But she was somebody who was there in the field.

And the circumstances in which she was shot, I mentioned there that the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights have made an announcement, a statement on that, and yet that's not something that the IDF, the Israel Defence Force, agrees with. That's right. I mean, there's just huge controversy still over how she was killed. I mean, just to put it in context, it was on the 11th of May. Shireen set off early for what must have seemed to her like a routine assignment in Jenin. It's in the north of the West Bank. And she just emailed colleagues that she was heading to the edge of the camp to check on reports of an Israeli military raid. It was really early, just after dawn.

And she sent a message saying, I'll bring you the news as soon as the picture becomes clear. I mean, as you described, she was wearing her bulletproof vest, all very familiar to me. She was with a group of journalists close to where there were Israeli military vehicles, but in a place where the journalists have often gathered, because unfortunately there have been a lot of raids in this camp recently. I mean, there has been this spike in violence since late March. Nineteen people have been killed, mostly Israeli civilians inside Israel and under Jewish settler, in attacks by Palestinians and Arab citizens of Israel.

You've had a number of the Palestinian attackers who actually came from Jenin or that area, and that's led to an increase in Israeli military raids there. Now, in the same time period, because Shaleen is not the only person who's been killed, since March there have been a total of three Israeli Arabs carrying out attacks, but 46 Palestinians killed, according to one of the news agency's counts. And among those killed in the West Bank, there were suspected militants, but also unarmed civilians, a number of them. So you can see that this was all taking place already within a situation

where there's lots of kind of contention. I mean, of course, with lots of journalists around, you have witnesses and colleagues of Shirin, including some who were filming, that blamed the shooting immediately on Israeli soldiers, saying that was the direction of the fire. They knew what was going on roughly on the ground where the Palestinian militants were. Initially, the Israeli military tried to point the finger of blame firmly at the Palestinian militants, but then they changed tack and said it was possible she had been killed by a Palestinian gunman shooting indiscriminately, or they said unintentionally, by a soldier. But what we've now had is a number of investigations that have included that Israeli forces most likely killed

Shalina and injured one of her colleagues who was shot as well. The latest one was that one from the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights on Friday, and it said several single seemingly well-aimed bullets were fired at Shireen and three other journalists from the direction of the Israeli forces. And you've had media organisations, CNN, The Washington Post, The Associated Press, The New York Times have all reached similar conclusions. But the Israeli military says these reports are biased. It put out a new statement in response to the UN report, said it was not possible to determine how she was killed. And it's really blaming the

Palestinian Authority for denying Israeli demands. They want it to share the bullet that killed her, that was removed from her body. It says if it had the bullet, the Israelis say if they had the bullet, they could check and answer definitively if it came from one of their soldiers' guns. But the Palestinians have been refusing that, basically saying they don't trust the Israeli military to investigate one of its own. So that's where that is, I suppose, up to at the moment. We're talking about her today, Shirin Amber-Wakler and her work, because of the memorial

service being held in london tomorrow which as you say because of her recognizable uh the nature of her being so recognizable and also her length of time in the field but also other journalists having lost their lives um it's something i suppose that will bring a lot of people together in a way that's right i mean there have been besides i mean there's a lot of people together in a way. That's right. I mean, there have been, besides, I mean, there was a lot of controversy. Of course, people might have seen the pictures from Shardin's funeral procession because Israeli police in East Jerusalem were very heavy-handed. They beat the mourners, including the pallbearers,

so that they almost dropped Shardin's coffin, which was covered by a Palestinian flag. So there's been a lot of international condemnation of that as well. But there were a number of different services remembering Shadeen. And we spoke to people in one of the refugee camps here. It's quite remarkable. I went along to one at the church because Shadeen was a Palestinian Christian. And people really see her as being something of a symbol. I mean, thousands of people, more people than turned out for her funeral in East Jerusalem

than people said they'd seen for a generation. It's just this big outpouring of grief. She's being described by Palestinians as a martyr for the truth. She's become this kind of nationalist symbol, I suppose, but also a symbol of the constant struggle here to find the truth and to report on it. Yolanda Nell, BBC's Middle East correspondent. Thank you.

And thank you to you for many messages. We will talk more this week about that decision to overturn Roe v. Wade. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.