Woman's Hour - Bel Powley and Susan Wokoma, Genre fiction: Spy novels and thrillers, Jenny Ryan

Episode Date: August 28, 2024

The Real Thing is a play within a play currently on stage at the Old Vic in London. It encourages the audience to question why we fall in love, what is fact and what is fiction. And can we can ever really know if the love we are experiencing is the real thing? Actors Susan Wokoma and Bel Powley star in the production and join Nuala in the Woman’s Hour studio to discuss.Over the summer Woman’s Hour is taking a deep dive into the world of “genre” fiction and today we are entering the gripping and shady world of spy fiction and thrillers. Ava Glass joins Nuala to discuss her new spy novel The Trap. She is joined by Charlotte Philby, author and granddaughter of infamous double-agent Kim Philby, who has also written books about spies but her latest The End of Summer falls firmly in the thriller genre.Omulbanin Sultani was studying medicine at Kateb University in Kabul when the Taliban banned women from universities in 2022. Last week, she arrived in Scotland, along with eighteen other female medical students from Afghanistan to complete their doctor training. The move - organised by the Linda Norgrove Foundation - took three years. Nuala speaks to Omulbanin, who is now a student at the University of St Andrews.Quizzer Jenny Ryan – better known as the Bolton brainbox ‘The Vixen’ on the hit ITV quiz The Chase – is breaking away from teatime telly to invite audiences to an evening of song, storytelling and showbiz secrets. She joins Nuala to talk about her passion for quizzing, her cabaret show, Jenny Ryan: Out Of The Box, and to sing live.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Laura Northedge

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Nuala McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning, hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Well, the actors, Belle Powley and Susan Wacoma in a moment, currently starring in Tom Stoppard's The Real Thing. When do we know the romantic love that we feel is the real thing? We're going to talk about it. But no matter how sure and strong that romantic love is, what about this?

A Finnish study found that the bond that a parent has with their child is the most potent and all-consuming form of love, trumping the feelings that we have for our partners, our friends, pets, or even nature. What are your thoughts? One article I saw in The Times today, following on from that study, it's by an anonymous writer, I should say. She says she feels guilty

that she loves her sons more than her husband. I'd like to hear from you, particularly if you love your sons more than her husband. I'd like to hear from you, particularly if you love your partner more than your kids. Or does the study pretty much sum up how you feel? Maybe your partner also loves the kids

more than you. Explain it all to me. You can text the programme, the number is 84844. Yes, you can be anonymous if you want. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through our website. For WhatsApp, that number, voice note or a message, 03700 100 444.

Also, quiz fans, can you guess which red-haired, bespeckled woman we have with us today? I'll just tell you. It's Jenny Ryan, the vixen on the chase. She's performing live for us. Yes, she is a great singer, as well as a quizzer, that coming up.

And also this hour, you'll hear from an Afghan medical student who has just arrived in Scotland to continue her studies that is following the crackdown on women and girls' freedoms in Afghanistan. Plus, this hour, we are delving into spy and thriller fiction

as we continue our series on the genres that we read. Ava Glass and Charlotte Philby coming up. Yes, that Philby. Her grandfather was that infamous double agent, Kim Philby. So looking forward to all of those conversations. But as I ask for your thoughts on love this morning, let us start with that theme with my next guest. Why do we fall in love? What is fact? What is fiction? Can we ever really know that the love we are experiencing

is the real thing? That is the title of Tom Stoppard's play that's currently on at the Old Vic with Belle Powley, who's in front of me playing Annie, and Susan Wacoma, who is the title of Tom Stoppard's play that's currently on at the Old Vic with Belle Powley who's in front of me playing Annie and Susan Wacoma who plays the role of Charlotte. Good morning to both of you. I was with you last night. Hey. Did you enjoy it? I really enjoyed it. I loved it. But I'm just thinking

I got home kind of late. What about you ladies? Oh, you were quite good. You went home straight off. I was asleep by 11. Yeah, I had a friend in and we've got like a real setup in our dressing rooms where we've got like little drinks and like, you know, really lovely lamps. Get the mood right after a show. So I was there in the dressing room with my mate Naomi and Ollie and James who were in the plane. We were just having a little wind down.

So yeah, this is early. A wind down or a wind down? No, we were winding down. We were relaxing. Yeah, I was good. I was good. But yeah. Good stuff.

Well, you're both very welcome. Of course, our listeners will know you both seasoned actors. Susan Cheaters and Ola Holmes, one and two chewing gum, just listing off some of them. Belle, more recently, Everything I Know About Love.

The Morning Show last year, the drama you were on with me, actually, for a small light about Miep Gies, the Dutch woman who risked her life to shelter Anne Frank's family from the Nazis for two years during World War II. So good to have both of you on. But, you know, last night when I began watching the play and then I realised it's a play within a play. It's also a comedy. There's love, there's infidelity. And I suppose the stories we tell ourselves. Let me start with you, Belle. What was it that appealed to you?

Is love something that you like to jump into? Definitely is. But what really appealed to me about this play is I think it delves into the kind of more unexplored corners of relationships and love It's got kind of a funny timeline You meet Henry when he's married to Charlotte and then you realise he's having an affair with Annie And then it kind of jumps forward and it's about them, Annie and Henry kind of developing this relationship that was born out of adultery And then there ends up being another affair.

So, yeah, I think it's focusing more on the, yeah, as I said, the unexplored corners of relationships and whether you ever know if love is the real thing. Is it something that just happens to you or is it something that you have to work on and develop and navigate? And is it something that has peaks and troughs? Exactly. Yeah. You know, I was watching a little Instagram reel that both of you had done for the old video and I was like, this seems incredibly complicated. Watching it last night, it's actually really straightforward, guys. Watching it last night, I was like, OK, this is much more straightforward. But it is those entanglements that happen and couples, I suppose, also about when they stay together and when they leave. What was it that attracted you to it, Susan? Because I was reading you were going into retirement.

I know you've been back treading the boards. I keep saying this. What is this? I'm done with this. Is that just diva behavior going on? Oh, I would say I'm a diva. No, I just, you know, I think that I played, when I first started doing theatre, I played a lot of children.

Oh, really? And I think that what happens with a woman on stage, as an actress, I think that you can attest to this, is that your casting changes quite a bit. And so but you as a person, there's loads of bits of you that don't change. And so I think that trying to kind of find where my home is with theatre has been an ongoing kind of battle challenge, exciting kind of prospect. But I was just getting to the point where I was like, I don't know what I want to do next. And so I've just been in this really wonderful space, actually, where things have arrived. And the real thing was one of them. And I never thought I'd be in a stop hard play. So yeah, as much as I keep kind of going, I'm going to hang up my boots. You can't, you're

too talented. Stop it, Belle. Actually, continue. It's funny that you say that, Susie, because what I found most challenging about playing Annie is that I am the same age as her. Like, I historically, on stage and on TV and film, have always played characters who are younger than me. So I've played these characters with the beauty of having hindsight. I've been like, oh, I get those characters and everything I know about love. I was 24 years ago.

Whereas now I'm playing a woman who is the same age as me. I'm also newly married. So all the things that Annie is discovering, I'm kind of like in the middle of discovering myself. You've just got married. Yes. Just as I throw some real life drama in as well. Congratulations. Thank you. But it is so much a play, I suppose, about marriage as well at the heart of it or how long you stay in a marriage or when the right time is to leave.

Susan, coming back to you, your character is Charlotte and there's a line, there are no commitments, only bargains. I know, I made it on the poster. Is it your favourite line. Is it your favourite line, Pearl? Yeah. Yeah, I love that line. It's, you know, again, it's sort of the, you know, is love there?

Is it something that's just, that you feel that kind of floats, you know, in front of you and kind of makes everything hazy? Or do you have to constantly bargain with it? And I think that I do ear on the side of Charlotte because you change as a person kind of what I was saying your casting changes you change as a person your needs are going to change what you want is going to change your desires are going to change and so you it's about I feel it's about finding somebody that you can grow and change alongside and that does sometimes include growing apart, unfortunately. But it's interesting,

the bargains, because Belle, no doubt, you will have heard probably when people give you advice for marriage, that it's all about compromise, right? That's often the word that comes up again.

And I suppose bargain, compromise, they're kind of synonyms in a way. Yeah, it's kind of the same family, yeah. But, you know, going back to the character that you're given

or written or who you're playing, let us delve into that part. Your character, Charlotte Susan, here she is complaining about the limitations of the character that Henry, so he's the guy writing the play, that he has written and she is currently playing. Or not. No, don't have it there. Not to worry. Maybe Susie can just perform it. I knew you were going to say that.

Oh, no, I couldn't. I'm possibly going to now. No, but with it, let me turn back to you. Yeah. Because I was there last night. Yes. It is basically feeling

that she is being put in a box, not being given the best lines, that she is not the full character that she should be. And I'm just wondering, as actors playing actors within a play, is that something that comes up that you feel that you can feel that frustration at times of not being able to be not not being given a role where you can show the your full abilities I suppose your full capabilities yeah I feel that as a woman particularly and I feel it more when I'm in projects with a lot of men and you get to see them kind of be brilliant and wonderful and complex and it is very, very frustrating, especially because I believe as you get older, you can give more, you learn more. I think you get richer and fuller.

This idea of like you get older and therefore your worth and your value goes down, it's the absolute opposite when it comes to acting. Yeah. With the magic of radio technology, this is a live show. We can go to that clip that I mentioned where charlotte is complaining about the limitations of the character that henry has written for her oh well you tried playing the feed one night instead of acting henry after a butt's fizz and two rewrites you know all his laughs are in place

all right so's my groan groan groan they all go when they find out. Oh, grown, so she hasn't got a lover at all, eh? They lose interest in me totally. You know, I'm a victim of Henry's fantasy. A quiet, faithful bird with an interesting job and a recipe drawer. I'm sorry if you've had a bad time. There's a right thing to say now. The dialogue is so fast-paced. How difficult was it to really learn those lines?

Obviously, you know, the play is written in modern English, so I think when we all read it for the first time before we got to rehearsals, we thought, oh, I get this play. And then we kind of sat down and round a table for a week, just unpicking it line by line word by word because it's so beautifully layered there's meaning in every single word in every sentence even the songs that tom has chosen to go between the scene changes if you listen to the lyrics of those songs they have meaning in the play it's so deep um so we spent a lot of time just unpicking it before we even stood up and

started acting it. It also pokes fun at the pretensions of the life of a theatre, be it the actors etc. There's one very funny bit where it intersects with Radio 4 actually, which is about Desert Island Discs and that

the character Henry, who is now your husband, shall we say, Annie, your second husband. He's trying to decide what records should be playing kind of to give him an intellectual bent that he wants represented on the radio as a public figure. Is that the real thing? Yes. If he's doing it for show, is it the real thing? Yeah. Let us hear you

in action Belle as Annie and this is towards Henry your husband about his attitude to being a writer you're jealous of the idea of the writer you want to keep it sacred

special not something anybody can do some of us have it some of us don't. We write, you get written about. What gets you about Brodie is he doesn't know his place. You say he can't write, like the head waiter saying you can't come in here without a tie. Well, just because he can't put words together. What's so good about putting words together?

There's a lot of laughs at that point. And, you know, it kind of continues to push and pull about who gets to write, what work gets seen, what is real talent. Yeah, who gets to tell stories. I think that one of Annie's kind of biggest journeys in this play is finding her place in this relationship with this kind of very intelligent, very knowledgeable older man.

That's her kind of arc, is by the end, and she does do it by then having another affair, which I don't necessarily personally agree with, but I understand when she says to Henry, you know, if I have an affair it's out of it's out of need um care about that I think that he doesn't necessarily like see her full potential and it's about her kind of um finding that for herself it's also I think at that point I was thinking about whether this woman Annie can really love two people at the same time.

Can she have the real thing with both? And that's where this play translates so well, I think, to 2024. It was written in 1982. But the themes of kind of free love and polyamory are kind of really prevalent nowadays um and that is kind of what annie is suggesting that they do in their relationship you know she says you're not replaceable i still love you but i do want to kind of sleep with this younger man um and again you know it's not necessarily something I personally would do but but it's a it is a kind of very prevalent conversation today in relationships and definitely yeah we've had quite a few conversations because we're in previews at the moment with people going

gosh like I didn't I didn't know that it was going to touch on on this thing I think I've got loads of friends who are navigating polyamory and what that is and can you do it? Do you have the self-esteem for it? Like in theory, it sort of makes sense that not one person can fulfil every single need, but actually the admin is an absolute madness. And that's what she finds out.

She then finds out, she says, I feel silly. I feel silly and I feel hoist. can't do this anymore it's a lot of work it's a lot of admin um but and I loved that and I love the fact that you know Tom is so smart and clever and I think that there was such a reverence that I had and maybe a little bit of fear at the beginning but reading it and dissecting it especially with these group of actors like it's just been so lovely to get to the heart of it and ultimately I you know I really understand what Annie's saying especially if you are dating somebody who is older and and you want and you grow exactly what I said before you grow and you change and if the other person isn't willing to

grow or change um what do you do do you just sort of not develop because of them? I don't, I'm not so sure. I also want to speak to you, Susan, about the last time you were on Woman's Hour. You had co-authored an open letter in solidarity with Francesca Amawode Rivers. She's a young black actor who played Juliet to Tom Holland's Romeo in the West End.

Can you tell us a little bit more about that, about why you did it? And also, has anything changed since then? Has anything changed? So we did, so me and Somalia Seaton is a really good friend of mine. We saw everything that unfolded online. And it is, I think, quite honestly, the worst online abuse I've ever witnessed. And we just felt as two people in the arts, two black women in the arts who have also experienced that sort of thing, but never to that level. We just wanted to show solidarity and love

and for Francesca to know that we see her and we understand that so many times awful things happen and then you have to go out on stage every night and going out on stage is a trip. But knowing that there are people who have said the worst, like racist, misogynistic things.

And so we just wanted her to feel held. We did it with her knowledge and permission because it was something that did kind of gain traction. And sometimes you don't want that, especially when you're in a rehearsal room. But it was something that did kind of gain traction and sometimes you don't want that especially when you're in a rehearsal sure um but it was horrible um and very triggering for a lot i mean when i came on last time there was an incident that i actually couldn't say because i had to go through all the police reports of things that happened to me um and that's not me kind of centering myself but it's the reason why so many of us wanted to be

there for her because this is real and it's ongoing particularly when you enter a sphere where it's the kind of like sci-fi comic book kind of place which is kind of the the relationship with tom holland spider-man and that's why that happened um has things changed, as we've seen in recent weeks, there's been actual race riots. So no. But I think that what I found really important is solidarity between black actresses and to really look each other in the eye and go, we see you, we hear you, and what can we do?

And also like a lot of theatres, you know, the old Vic, when the riots were happening uh our director max you know sat us down and you know made sure that it was all an all right space that we could speak about what was going on outside whereas previously i have i won't say where but i was on the way to um a show and i i ended up walking in the middle of a demonstration and there was no space to talk about what I just experienced before I go on and go la-di-da, la-di-da on stage. Wow. So having the space

in the theatre to talk about it and, you know, with our other actors, Abiola and Carice as well, that is important. But, well, gosh, we've got lots more work to do. And honestly, like, you know, I'm sure there'll be a time when Francescaco wants to speak for themselves but you just want to act man like that's just want to get on with our jobs anyway thank you both so much for coming in susan macoma who you're just hearing there who is charlotte bell powley who plays annie i saw them last night, but opening night on the 3rd of September, running until the end of October. It is called The Real Thing. It's on at the Old Vic and 26th of October will be the last day. Thank you both so much for coming in.

Thank you for having us. We're talking about love, talking a lot about love this week. I was asking you whether you love your kids more than your partner because of that Finnish study. A lot here. I said you can be anonymous. Here's one. I was married for 37 years before my husband died. Aged 20 when I'd married.

Had three children under three early on. My love for my husband was all consuming. We had a fab marriage and a good family life. I loved my kids too, but he was my number one. It's only in the last three years since he's gone I've realised how lucky I had been to have had such a good relationship. I thought it was the norm, but I've realised since many people don't have what I had. The love I feel for my kids is now huge and sometimes overwhelming. This has happened since my husband died. It's given me room, space, chance to give my undivided love to my kids. How interesting. 84844 if you would like to get in touch.

Now, I want to turn to Afghanistan and also Scotland. In Afghanistan, the Taliban has published a host of new vice and virtue laws over the past week, and it states that women must completely veil their bodies and faces in thick clothing at all times in public. The Taliban says to avoid leading men into temptation and vice, women also will not be allowed to be heard in public under the new restrictions. Over that same week, because of educational restrictions, 19 women from Afghanistan arrived in Scotland to complete their

degrees in medicine. The Taliban, you'll remember, banned women from universities in December 2022, and the year before excluded girls from secondary school. There is a foundation called the Linda Norgrove Foundation. It's a charity based in the Isle of Luz in Scotland, and they have been trying to arrange the move

for three years for these students. It's run by John and Lorna Norgrove. It's in memory of their daughter who was kidnapped by the Taliban and subsequently died in Afghanistan back in 2010. And this foundation worked with the UK and Scottish governments to arrange visas and places at four medical schools across Scotland.

I'm joined by one of the women who has made the trip. Her name is Amal Bannon Sultani. She was a student at Kattab University in Kabul. She's now at the University of St. Andrews. Good morning and welcome Amal Bannon. Thank you so much. I hope you're fine. It's really nice to talk to you. And it's really nice to talk to you. You're so welcome to Woman's Hour. How does it feel arriving at St. Andrews? It is so amazing. From the first of the trip, or let's say from the first days that the program of carrying us to Scotland for studying started three years ago, every day was just amazing. However, we were to get ready for the IELTS exam, one of the exams international, by the way. But every day was amazing.

In Afghanistan, we were just making ourselves busy with that. But now that we are in Scotland, it is much, much more amazing than that. And it's so good to see the people with a different attitude. It is good to see a place where education is valued, a place where all the people have the ambition of improving the education. You know, I was reading a little of your application to get this place and that you were studying Scottish culture, for example, and your language as well. And of course, we can hear your lovely English. You might have a Scottish accent by the time you finish. Actually

now and one month that we were in Pakistan in Afghanistan mostly American accent is taught. Oh really? Personally I was working for my British accent so I think I am a little near to that.

You're getting closer. But I'm really curious, Amal Bannon, what surprised you when you arrived in Edinburgh? Was it like you expected? Of course not. We were supposed to see just LNF staff in the airport. But when we got into the Edinburgh Central Airport, there were the parliament members, the politicians, LNF staff, other staff that were working indirectly with the LNF, all of the people, those who have tried a lot to bring us here. And it was so amazing looking at them,

that how interested they are to see us, that these girls are rescued from Afghanistan and they are now here. It was unexpected. And it was so amazing and joyful when the second day we went to Queen House and there the Lord Jack MacDonald, we had the presence of him. Thankfully, the presence of other parliament members and the presence of most of the UK government and Scotland government responsibles.

There I had a speech. When I finished speaking, they really supported me with a two-minute clapping. So it was also really joyful. So this is wonderful. You know, I can feel from when you arrived, you have been welcomed. And I believe also Lorna and John Norgrove were there. You mentioned all the politicians that also came to welcome you. But you will get down to work then and continue

your studies. What do you hope to do? Eventually return to Afghanistan or stay in Scotland because it's going to be a number of years you'll be here correct yeah yeah a number of years we'll be here we will get a good degree soon but see if the Afghanistan is in this condition that girls are not allowed to work so our documentary will be just nothing. But if Afghanistan gets a little better, of course, that has been my goal to serve my people in my country. And it is my goal to serve my people in my country. But actually, if we get out of Afghanistan and think broader, we get that my goal is not to just serve a specific group of people. All around the globe, there aren't much of the poor people existed that

need the medical assistance. It's not my goal to just serve in Afghanistan or Scotland it actually doesn't matter to serve in Scotland or African country or American country or Asian country but just to serve the world you might travel but your home of course is Afghanistan and your family is there I understand you're married as well

your husband is back in Afghanistan yeah he's back in Afghanistan for now. For now, that is what I was just wondering because that must be hard. We're talking about romantic love this morning quite a bit on the programme but you know also Afghanistan is now a very conservative country particularly as the Taliban

is ruling. And I'm wondering how your husband reacted to you leaving or being able to go to Scotland to study medicine. The first time that I got the news, my husband was also with me. So I was worried that if all the relatives say anything and they do something that my parents don't let me or my husband doesn't let me. But the most supportive man was my husband, who has motivated me so much to improve more and to have a better life in the future. So he supported me. He came with me to the border to cross me from the border of Afghanistan, Pakistan. But he went back to Afghanistan. It was so disappointing. But that is something that we should bear in order to have a better

life in the future. And sometimes it's so hard. We miss each other, of course, but it will have a good future. The future will be nice. Just bearing to be four for one year cannot be that much hard to have a life in Afghanistan. It's gosh, that's a real window into your life, Amal Bannon. We have this word in English that he's a keeper. It means that he's somebody to keep. It's like something quite special and to keep. So he's somebody to keep. He sounds wonderful that he has been, you know, one of your biggest supporters and motivators to get you to go. I wish you all the best.

We'll have to check back in on you and get your Scottish diaries and see how life is going at St. Andrews. We'll be in touch, yeah. We'll be in touch. Thank you so much for spending some time with us. Amal Banner Soltani, she is, or was, I should say, a student at Kateb University in Kabul. Now she is studying medicine at the University of St. Andrews. Some of the comments that have been coming in.

Let me read. This is on love, parental versus kids. It doesn't seem surprising to me that the activation levels of love are different, more intense for children. I'm the mother of four

and love them and my husband a great deal. But they're very different types of love. Children are dependent on us, weaned, trained, guided, taught by us. It's an all-consuming relationship with many characteristics that I wouldn't want in my marriage. The sense of satisfaction and pride that we experience

as they learn new things, flourish and grow into great young people is completely different to the deep enjoyment, trust and partnership between two spouses it wouldn't surprise me if my relationship with my kids activates my brain more i am not sure that means i love them more though uh-huh questioning exactly what those brain scans mean 84844 if you want to get in touch with Woman's Hour or indeed all the usual ways at BBC Woman's Hour. That is. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies.

I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Another way.

I want to turn to Jenny Ryan. She's known as the Bolton brain box, the vixen on, yes, the ITV quiz hit. You have to say it is a hit. I think we've all watched it. It is called The Chase. But this quizzer is now breaking away from Tea Time Telly to invite audiences to an evening of song and storytelling and showbiz secrets. Going to try and get them out of her. She takes her cabaret show, it's called Jenny Ryan, out of the box on a tour of the UK. Jenny has just come into our studio.

Wow, Jenny, come on over to the Woman's Hour Desk. What a voice. How did we not know that was there as we watched you? I think a lot of people didn't know that was in there, including myself. Really? Yeah, I've always sung to myself at home, but for many years was completely convinced. It was just something that brought joy to myself and maybe as part of a chorus or in the ensemble of the local amdram. So what flipped the switch? Bringing myself, you know, out of periods of anxiety and depression, really, I realised it was something that really lifted my spirits individually. So I started to sing out more.

And really, the thing that's completely changed my life is is taking the really difficult decision to go on celebrity x factor because the huge risk there of public humiliation rejection shaming and I thought you know what I'm going to take this chance and really challenge myself because I'm not just the quiz robot that you see on the chase. I'm a human being with lots of different strings to my bow and different things going on in my life. So I took that chance and I found out very loudly that people find joy in my voice, not just myself. So sharing that with people is something that I'm quite keen to do now. I love that.

So instead of all those potential negative results, instead it was success and now a cabaret show, Jenny Ryan, out of the box, starting on the 11th of September in Litchfield. Why a cabaret show? I love the idea of cabaret. It's just that little bit less formal than the theatre and you can have a bit more fun. And it's really the only way to describe the show

because it's a mix of my favourite songs from all different genres, interspersed with what's essentially my FAQ. It's the things that people want to know most often about my life, my story, where I've come from, how I've got to this very strange job. I mean, there aren't many professional quizzers out there on the telly. And less women, let me tell you, when I started thinking about it. Yes, we are certainly a small but very interesting group. We just have to stick together as female quizzers and overcoming quite a lot of things in my life to get to where I am. So I wanted to tell that story, to share that story through song, through a bit of silliness. It's a little bit stand up. It's funny. It's uplifting.

And yes, I do share a few secrets. Are you going to share one with me now? A showbiz secret? Well, I'm quite reluctant to say this on air, but I do have some tales about my visit to Simon Cowell's house. But I will tell that on stage. Oh, gosh, he's very good at the tease, correctly called the vixen. But that's how people know you, right? They know you from the chase. How did you get involved in quizzing? It's been a lifelong pursuit.

No pun intended. It was not intended, you're quite right. Really, it all goes back to my granddad. And I do pay tribute to him quite a lot in my show. He taught me the basics of reading and writing when I was very young I was three years old when this nosy little kid was absolutely desperate to learn things so he taught me those and then the next logical step was to teach me to find out the answers to all those million questions that I had for him looking in books and how to how to remember those things so we would sit there every afternoon and watch quiz shows and I would start to get answers before he did. And I realised that was the way to really, really impress him.

And I know if he was around, he would be mostly very proud of me, but also a little bit envious. He'd be a great chaser. Okay, because he's a competitor. He was a competitive guy. Yes. And quizzing was was his huge hobby. He, he ran local quiz leagues and pub quiz competitions. And in fact, there was a lovely piece in our local paper when he passed away, describing him as quiz King Kevin. So this show is for him. Oh, that's lovely. But you are a quiz queen. You have a very specific look. If anybody has even chanced across the chase, they will know you. You've got a particular look, red hair, bespeckled, quite stern. Where did you get the name?

Oh, the Vixen. Well, the producers were keen to give me an animal nickname because I wear a lot of animal print. It's a neutral. It's my favourite colour. They've even incorporated it into my costume design. And they originally were quite interested in calling me the cougar, which was completely wrong. Has certain connotations. Yeah, for various reasons that was incorrect. And it was actually Bradley Walsh who came up with the idea of the

vixen because I have my hair in a red ponytail. He was like, they're very cunning, they're clever, they're fast. And also, by coincidence, I do like going through bins. But tell me, when it comes to your skill, how do you train the brain to remember? And do you think it's different? You were just talking about your granddad there, you know, going through books to find answers and stuff. Now, of course, people just Google it. Do you think the retention is different depending on where you find the answer? I think as long as you've got a system and you're, you know, very comfortable with how your brain

works, we've all got different learning methods. So getting the information in there is only one part of the quizzing puzzle. And however you you do it whether it is looking it up in books and reading articles or whether it's listening to the radio and podcasts or watching documentaries which is more my kind of learning style that's one way of doing it but the the the other side is the the recall and being able to get that information out of your brain so much of that is practice and I do think brain training and keeping up with quizzes. I watch all the afternoon game shows. Do you? And in the evening, Quizzy Mondays, I'm hooked to that.

I go to pub quizzes when I can in disguise. Oh, gosh, I'd say people see you turn up, they're like, oh, right. We may as well not enter. Well, what they can do is send over a few rounds of drinks and that sort of evens it out. Or get you on their team. But you are obsessed. I was listening to some of your podcast, which you have with the comedian Lucy Porter.

It's Fingers on Buzzers. Yes, all about quizzes and game shows. And I was just wondering, you are obviously fully immersed and steeped. But what is it about the quiz that is so, I suppose, compelling and successful a format? I think really we all like to be right a little bit. We all like a little pat on the head. We enjoy the edification of things coming up that we don't know. But every so often when something comes up and you get it right and you beat everyone else in the room,

even if everyone in the room is under the age of four, and you're shouted out that answer, it is like a little pat on the head. And it makes you feel good for knowing something and something that's nothing to do with the way you look or what you do for work. It's completely separate. It's a wonderful feeling. And the more you get that, the more you get hooked into quizzing. And of course, if you're taking part in a quiz, you are overtly competitive. That goes with it, right? And I'm just wondering, do you think, as this is Women's Hour, that women approach

competition in a way that's different to men? I can't really speak for all women. I don't think I'm in direct competition with other people and other quizzes so much as I'm in competition with myself. Really? And keeping my record, my stats as high as possible. My colleagues, you know, they've got a big spreadsheet. There's a league table among the chasers I've read.

And we're all actually top of the league table on different stats. So it depends which way you look at it. I just want to make sure that I'm the best quizzer I can be. But there's a certain amount of adrenaline that runs through you when you're competing against the clock, especially on Beat the Chasers. There's all six of us there.

And as much as we like to say we're not competitive with each other, we're a team. Oh, we are a little bit. We're all trying to race to that buzzer and to get there faster than our colleagues and hopefully with the same correct answer. I'm seeing for you a new type of quiz in the future that has music in it, that has singing in it. I think that would be a lot of fun. I think music is something else like quiz that

brings us together. It kept us together during a few difficult years as well, both of those things. So who knows? I'd love to do a quiz about musical theatre. Listen, we're just coming up with the ideas here this morning. Jenny Ryan, it's been great to have you in. Enjoy

Litchfield and the rest of the UK as you tour it around is called Jenny Ryan Out of the Box. It sounds like it's going to be brilliant from that little tiny preview we had there. Thanks so much for coming in.

Thanks for having me. Now, some of your messages coming in, you know, about that kid, that parental love, does it over supersede the romantic love or that of your pets

or of nature even? Here's one. I don't have those all-consuming feelings of love for my three children that people describe. That bond was just never that strong. I've always felt deficient as if it makes me heartless, though I can't fake that kind of feeling. I longed to be a parent, but I've hated it. Whilst I always support and defend my kids on an everyday level, my love for my husband is far greater, not how I would have expected it to be. I always hope that Woman's Hour will cover the topic of finding motherhood

a huge disappointment and deeply unrewarding and trying not to let your children feel that from you. Am I alone? From Anonymous, because I love my children enough to not want to hurt them. So many messages coming in on this. On the subject of love and children, I have always felt that my parents love each other more than they love my sister and I. It's great that they have each other and also close, but it also feels problematic. That one is Annie.

Another one, different. A mother's love for her children is visceral and all-consuming. It takes an exceptional spouse partner to understand and accept that. But I suppose as we're hearing this morning, it's not that straightforward. There are different experiences that people have. We have them all here on Woman's Hour 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. Now, over the summer, Woman's Hour is taking a deep dive into the world of genre fiction. The women who write it and the women who read it.

And today we're entering the gripping and also sometimes shady world of spy fiction and also of thrillers. like Ian Fleming and John le Carré have helped shape a genre that is seen as traditionally male with charming but ruthless secret agents fighting foreign agents, keeping secrets and of course breaking hearts along the way. So how does Ava Gass's fictional female spy Emma Makepeace compete with them and what does her character tell us about gender roles in fiction

and also in real life? She joins me to discuss her new novel, The Trap, along with Charlotte Philby, author and granddaughter of the infamous double agent, Kim Philby. She has also written books that have been categorised spy novels. But her latest, The End of Summer, that is falling firmly into the thriller genre. Let me begin with Ava. What is a spy novel? And welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you for having me. A spy novel is, well, I think we all know it, don't we? It's the James Bond, the John le Carré. So it centres around an agent and an intelligence officer who is investigating something and trying to solve that something over the course of the novel or to prevent an attack or to to actively be involved in figuring out why something is happening so it's a it's a novel of curiosity um danger and

bravery I think why do you think and I'm going to come to you, Charlotte, on this too, but why do you think that that endures? Because if you've heard it once, have you not heard it a hundred times? Yeah, that's such a good question. I actually think it endures because we're fascinated by that world. I worked very briefly with spies. I was a communications consultant for the government. And so I... Which government?

Well, the British government. It's just with your accent. That's a good point. That's a very good point. Or maybe you're a double H. Maybe you're going both ways with the accent just off-putting me. I certainly couldn't tell you if I were. And meeting spies sort of, it didn't demystify them at all. It mystified them further. Because what it did was prove to me that some of what spy writers were doing, a lot of it was correct. And the like, how much of this actually happens? You know, everything from jumping in the car, it could be like, for example, the spies have pretty nice cars compared to the police, for example, like little details like that. Is that from experience? That I have just imagined. So I don't know what, I think the spies get whatever car they need

to be whatever they need to be. That I think is true. Let me turn it over to Charlotte. So you have written spy novels and thrillers. The one I've mentioned at the end of summer is a thriller. What's the difference both as well? Let's begin as a writer. We can talk about as a reader in a moment. Yeah, it's interesting for me. I've never thought of myself as a spy writer. When I first started writing a book, I just had my third baby and I sort of wanted this escapism from the world that I found myself in. And I started to think about what story I would like to tell. And having worked as a newspaper reporter, I found myself surrounded by people who are maybe quite dismissive of me as a younger writer.

And then, oh, you're the granddaughter of Kim Philby. Well, clearly, you know, immediately they think they know something about me. And I have to say in your introduction, being introduced as the granddaughter of Kim Philby, I found myself feeling slightly, you know, it's, I understand it and there's a degree and I understand the interest because it is interesting, but it also doesn't define me.

But I think perhaps I've been told for so long, this is what's interesting about you, that when I came to write, you know, we're all told we have one story in us. Well, perhaps my story is to do with women and spies and having experienced being a family member. And many won't know who Kim Philby is. Right. He's the grandfather of Charlotte Philby. Exactly. The thriller writer.

Very good. Very good. I love it. He was a double agent who was a member of the sort of the British upper classes who in the Cold War was one of the Cambridge spies who betrayed the British, you know, Britain, but also sort of betrayed the establishment in a way that we really don't seem to be able to get over. And we sort of find endlessly enduring. The thing to me that was interesting were the stories that weren't being told. And I heard Kim's story told to me so many times in different ways, but never the women and the families involved. And I just felt like that was really missing a trick. So in terms of writing fiction, that felt like rich territory. And then I sort of found myself falling into being categorised

as a spy writer, which is strange. Why do you push it back against the spy writer specifically, do you think? I think perhaps it's, you know, it is simply because I don't like being introduced in relation to my grandfather. Not because I'm ashamed, you know, well, I think that's irrelevant how I feel about him. But and also in terms of fiction, spy fiction as a genre, I think it's troubling because it can really backfire. If someone goes to my stories expecting Cold War thrillers,

they're going to be sorely disappointed because that's not what I'm creating. I did love with The End of Summer which is not spy fiction which is a thriller the character of Judy right who kind of opens up and it flips back and forth between two periods of actually

in September 2024 which is yet to come so I suppose in the very near future and also going back to the 80s but she is an unusual character I thought, but treacherous,

I suppose might be another word I'd use to describe her. What was your thinking with Judy? Interestingly enough, Judy was inspired by my maternal grandmother, who was nothing to do with Kim. We used to write to each other every week from when I was old enough to hold a pen until she died when I was in my mid-20s. And when she died, I inherited those letters along with a suitcase of stories that she'd written. And one of the stories was about the fact that she had three children like I have and she was staring down the barrel of turning 50. And the thought of all those ghastly candles, she said, I knew I had to get out of there. So my mum, who was a schoolteacher at the time in London, remembers opening the door to my grandma with her son, her youngest, who was five years old, and says to my mum, could you look after Greg for me? I'm going to Africa for six months. And I just thought, she's so audacious. I wish I

had the balls to, you know, to sort of just to pursue those ideas, those inclinations that I might have. She was a much bolder character than I am, clearly. But I also start to... But hang on, you're not 50 yet. That's true. I've got nine years. I will use them wisely. It might be just you turn around and 50 and away you go. But isn't it, it's interesting that Charlotte brings up there this unusual or non-traditional character that was in your family, not talking about Kim, talking about your grandmother, and also the characters that you have in your book. What about that, Ava? Because I'm reading about Emma Makepeace, who's

our heroine, shall we say, in your book, The Trap, but also meets up with Mackenzie, kind of, at first we're confused, is it a man, is it a woman? It's a woman. And it's two women that are working together. What about that, trying to place women in something that has been traditionally male relationships, and I suppose, sometimes, the moral codes that go along with that? Yes, actually, what Charlotte said about wanting to write the women in this world really resonated with me, because I very much wanted to write the women in the world of politics and intelligence because they're rarely written about. They appear more on television and in films than they do in books. Fiction publishing has often veered away from female spies for reasons I don't understand, which means we grow up not reading about female spies. We grew up reading about male spies. And that is odd to me,

given that when I went to work for the government, the very first spy I met, the very first spy that ever tricked me, that ever fooled me into believing she wasn't a spy, was in fact a 28-year-old woman who looks a lot like Charlotte, actually. But my mind said, this can't be a spy. A 28-year-old young blonde woman cannot be a spy because that's not what happens. And that is exactly what happens. Let us talk about the word honey trap. The minute I hear that, I think of women within kind of a Bond film or something. But then as I thought about it more deeply and particularly reading your books, why isn't a man ever called a honey trap? Because sexual politics come into spies and thrillers as well. Well, it's incredibly blittering, isn't it? It's sort of really, I feel like it undermines the role that a woman is playing to say that she's sort of using her sexual prowess

because what else could she possibly have? I've been researching a book on the untold stories of women spies that will be coming out next year. And I was worried because I only really heard the stories of, you know, the honey trap like the Anna Chapmans, or you would hear about perhaps the odd secretary or wife. And I thought there's just not enough material here and certainly not outside of the Second World War.

And I didn't want it to be too sort of repetitive. And it turns out there are countless women spies out there. And I just believe that a lot of it is they didn't get caught because they weren't expected to be there. And men couldn't imagine that they would be tricked by, you know, women who weren't honey trapping them. Kind of to your point, Ava. Absolutely. And also I think that honey traps are seen in our mind as a sort of a female thing because men wrote about them and men were afraid of them

for their characters. James Bond was very vulnerable. I mean, even the word honey trap, like... Exactly. Very visual. Even for radio. Exactly.

And so I think what I wanted to write about in the trap which has a honey trap element to it always when we see this when we see a male spy seducing a woman to get information it's extremely macho and extremely like wow he's so powerful he really got her in an instant um i wanted to look at what it would actually feel like to deceive somebody like that to deceive someone sexually to get information and whether i want to know what it would actually feel like to deceive somebody like that, to deceive someone sexually, to get information. And whether I want to know what it would be like as a spy to think about that. And that is between male and female. But just in our last 30 seconds or so, Charlotte, you also have the mother daughter deception relationship in a thriller, which is quite unusual. Yeah, I really felt that if Judy was going to be this quite complex con woman who we might really struggle to relate to in terms of the actions that she'd taken,

there had to be a really strong reason and a motivation. And for me, that was about grounding it in a sort of dedication to her daughter. And also it gave her this moral compass that sort of helped us overlook the more dubious sides of her daughter. And also it gave her this moral compass that sort of helped us overlook the more dubious sides of her character. Ava Glass, the novel is The Trap. You had another one, The Chase, I was going to mention to my previous guest, but that's another story.

And Charlotte Philby, The End of Summer. Really enjoyed reading both of them. Great summer reads. Thank you so much for coming into us on Women's Hour. A quick message. I'm almost beside myself with rage regarding this topic, parental love.

For me, it seems unnatural for a mother to put her sexual partner above her offspring. My mother-in-law told me when my daughter was five months old that I must put my husband

before my children. I was horrified at the time. 25 years later, I can see the impact this has had on her own children. Can you imagine being brought up to feel second best? We'll continue the conversation.

Anita's with you tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. From BBC Radio 4, 11 Minutes Dead, a paranormal thriller about near-death experience. We once believed death occurred at the exact moment the heart stopped beating. Sammy, where are you going? We now know this is not true.

You don't deserve a daughter, so I will come and take her away. Listen to 11 Minutes Dead, available now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.