Woman's Hour - Bel Powley, UTIs, Thai Elections, Theatre for Teenagers, Under Pressure

Episode Date: May 9, 2023

Most of us are familiar with the story of Anne Frank, the young Jewish girl who wrote a diary while hiding from the Nazis with her family, in Amsterdam during the Second World War. You are probably less familiar with the name of the woman who agreed to keep them safe in those secret attic rooms. Miep Gies was Otto’s secretary, and when they were eventually located and sent to their deaths, it was Miep who found Anne’s diary and kept it. A new TV series tells the whole story from Miep’s perspective, and she is played by the British actor Bel Powley. Bel joins Nuala to talk about playing an ordinary woman who displayed extraordinary courage.Plans have been announced to allow more patients to use high street pharmacies for some common drug prescriptions and routine tests to ease the pressure on busy GPs. Pharmacies are being asked to take on the prescribing of drugs for seven common ailments, including sore throats, earaches, shingles and urinary tract infections or UTIs. Women are up to 30 times more likely to get a UTIs than men. Half of women will have at least one in their lifetime and 20% will have more than one. So is easier access for women for UTI treatment a positive move? Mary Garthwaite, a former consultant urologist and chair of the Urology Foundation joins Nuala to discuss.As voters in Thailand head to the polls on Sunday for a general election, who are the frontrunners and what are the issues that female voters care about? Women played a key role in the 2020 pro-democracy protests and many are seeing the election as a way to challenge the power of patriarchal institutions such as the military and the monarchy. The current Prime Minister has been trailing behind opposition candidates in the polls, including Paetongtarn Shinawatra, the daughter of former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, who gave birth just two weeks ago. Nuala is joined by Jonathan Head, the BBC's South East Asia correspondent, to discuss.We hear the next in our series about how relationships are changed and put under strain when life happens. Zoe and James talk about how 'Ed' which is what they call Zoe's eating disorder has affected them since they got together as a couple when they were at school. Zoe's anorexia was 'atypical' - her weight wasn't low but she was in the grip of anorexia, all the behaviours and disordered thinking were there  - her body was under terrible stress and she was regularly collapsing. Only James was really aware of what was going on, a fact that put their relationship under pressure. Jo Morris went to meet Zoe and James in Lincolnshire and they tell their story.What was your experience with theatre when you were at school? Was there that one show you saw that inspired you and that you’ll never quite forget? Playwright Hannah Lavery and writer and actor Sarah Middleton have recently taken to the stage with their respective plays, Protest, and SHEWOLVES, which are aimed at teenagers and ensuring that young women’s voices are heard on the stage. They join Nuala to discuss the impact theatre can have on young people.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Hanna Ward

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome. Hope you've had a very good weekend. Maybe you're back at work today. Well, good to have you heard in the news bulletin there that NHS England will ask patients to use high street pharmacies for some common drug prescriptions and also routine tests. They say it'll ease the pressure on busy doctors. And there are seven common ailments that will be part of the plan. It includes urinary tract infections. Is that something that gives you pause?

The UTIs, they do affect women so much more than men. But is a pharmacy the right place to diagnose and treat a UTI? Well, we'll discuss that. Also to Thailand, parliamentary elections are taking place there next Sunday, though early voting has already started. We're going to take a look at the candidates, including one woman who gave birth just a couple of weeks ago and is already back on the campaign trail.

Also, we're asking, could this election challenge the patriarchal systems within the country? We do have also another conversation in our Under Pressure series. It's looking at relationships when something happens to put intense pressure on that connection. Today, it's how an eating disorder affected young couples'

lives. So we'll talk about that. And we also want to talk about theatre. Did you see something on stage when you were a girl that affected you? What was it and why? Well, you can text the programme. The number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through our website or if you prefer WhatsApp notes

or voice notes or WhatsApp messages, that number is 03700 100 444. We're going to be speaking to two guests, writers, about how and why

they are trying to reflect girls' voices on stage. But first, to a woman who has been on the screen since she was a girl. That is Belle Powley. And we're speaking to Belle because, although most of us are very familiar with the story of Anne Frank, the young Jewish girl who wrote a diary while hiding from the Nazis with her family in Amsterdam during the Second World War. You're probably less familiar

with the name of the woman who agreed to keep them safe in those secret attic rooms. Miep Gies was Otto Frank's secretary. And when they were eventually located and sent to the camps, it was Miep who found Anne's diary and kept it.

And there's a new TV series, which I love, I have to say. It tells the whole story from Miep's perspective. And she is played by the British actor, Belle Powley. Welcome, Belle. Hello. So good to have you here in the Woman's Hour studio. Let's play a little clip from the first episode for our listeners, and then we'll chat.

Don't be afraid, Margot. Do what Miep says. Yes. Let's play a little clip from the first we're not saying goodbye because we'll see you soon. How soon? Don't worry, in a few hours. So the hiding place is in town? Well, you really are a pain in the ass. So are you. Can you go and get your sister's coat, please? Listen to me, darling. It's just an ordinary bike ride, okay?

Yeah. Yeah? That's better. And remember... I know. Do what Miep says. Good girl. You listen to Miep. Okay, let's go. Put your coat on.

In case the neighbours are watching. Don't look nervous. Don't look nervous. Belle, listening to that, what's going through your mind oh just just i don't i can't believe the you know the kind of high pressure situation that these people were put under it's so insane and also just a reminder for for viewers like everything that we show in our kind of eight episode tv series it it all happened. Like Meep really did take Margot through that checkpoint into the annex, you know, they weren't, the situations were that dangerous.

I was watching it last night. And I have to say I had to stop watching and not continue because I had to get up for this morning, but I was totally transfixed. And I think probably also for our listeners, your viewers, the fact that Anne Frank is a minor character in this series is really interesting because we get to see through the eyes of Meep, the woman who really allowed them to remain there undetected for so long. When you first heard about potentially playing her, what drew you to her? So many things. Firstly, I'm Jewish myself. So I have, you know, always felt obviously connected to this part of history. My grandmother,

who was a very big part of my life, she's kind of a classic Jewish matriarch she died in 2020 and when I was offered this role I knew she would have been so proud that I was a part of this so just my own history kind of meant something but beyond that I do think that it's a part of history that has been explored a lot in film and television and I think that Anne Frank has been kind of immortalized in the in the diary and what I was so struck by when I read the pilot was just how connected I felt to these people these characters and how kind of there I felt and I thought it was such a clever way into a part of history that we all know too well is through the eyes of this incredibly relatable

young woman um you know she's not she's not your kind of mother tracer like no hero you know but she didn't want to be put on a pedestal she's just like party girl to begin with i mean yeah i mean yeah exactly we can all relate to exactly just like a young kind of directionless woman living her life in amsterdam partying too much newly in love you know um who was put in this extraordinary situation and i just thought that was a really great way to get people to connect and learn more about this part of history but also to relate it to kind of what was going on in the world today why is it called a small light so a small light it's taken from a quote that meep geese would say so basically after the war happened and after anne's diary was found and she gave it otto and it was published meep dedicated the rest of her life to going around the world and talking about

her experiences and talking about anne in the diary and kind of standing up against hatred and bigotism. Incredible character. She's an amazing woman. And she would end her talks with this quote where she'd say, no one should ever have to think you have to be special to help others. Anyone, even an ordinary secretary or a housewife or a teenager, can turn on a small light in a dark room. I wonder where Miep got that strength from. You know, I actually went to the annex, you know, of Anne Frank in Amsterdam just a few months ago, and there were photographs of

Miep on some of the walls. And that was the first time my eyes had been open to her and I wasn't aware of her beforehand. But she was this young woman, newly married. Where do you think her sense of, I suppose, strength of character, but also of responsibility, duty, all these things that she embodied came from? Well, she'd actually had like quite uh mad upbringing herself she was she was actually viennese um she was born in vienna and after the first world war she was basically starving a lot most of the country most of austria was kind of starved of food after the war and a lot of kids were dying of starvation and there was a um an initiative in europe where they were sending children away to other countries to be adopted or fostered by rich families to basically fatten them up and save their lives so she was sent away when she was nine years old um with literally a number hanging around her

neck on a train to amsterdam and was adopted by a dutch family who already had three other kids and i think a obviously that's going to give you an incredibly thick skin I mean that being sent away at nine years old to a country where she couldn't even speak the language but also experiencing the problem the selflessness of this family who took her in and also of her birth mother who gave up her child you know in order to save her. I think experiencing that much selflessness at a young age, you know, kind of it must be imbued in you for the rest of your life. Yeah, I think also, you know,

so there's obviously this extraordinary personality, but also full of fun at times as well. And yeah, she just comes across so, such a compelling figure as you watch it. The other relationship, there's a couple that, of course, that draw you in, but the one between Meep and Otto Frank.

So this is Anne's dad, played by Leo Schreber in the series. We're not used to seeing, I was thinking while watching it, an older man and a younger woman where that there's not something untoward within it on screen. A hundred percent.

And I talk about this a lot, actually. We obviously, none of us were there. We don't actually know what their relationship would be. We'd have to have been there. But my interpretation of it always was, and what I found most interesting about it is what you just said.

You know, I think it's, Meep wasn't a very modern woman for her time um and I think that her relationship with Otto was kind of very very modern like she was 20 something years younger than him and in my eyes they really were like best friends and he had been her boss just for people yeah yeah sorry so yeah they met in 1933 when she was just as we say a young party girl looking for a for a job and she became his secretary and she they worked together for nine years before he asked to put for them for her to hide the family and in those nine years she became an incredible friend of the family she was also a kind of a sister figure to Anne and Margot and I really do think she was just kind of like mates with Otto that's how I see it they really really loved each other

so obviously when the time came that he said listen I have to ask you something that's going to mean risking your life like if she'd got found she could have been sent to a concentration camp as well um of course she without hesitation said yes because she she loved this man dearly and at that time in Amsterdam it was like there were only really two paths that you people would take you either did something about it and you helped people or you're a passive bystander and that's what I think is so relevant to today about this show the passive bystander tell me more what you well I just think there are so many parallels with what was going on in the 40s to now.

I mean, A, with the rise of anti-Semitism, which has gotten so much worse in the last two years. I mean, I can't tell you how strange it was making a TV show when obviously we're making a show about a Nazi occupation. So we were seeing a lot of Nazi rhetoric in our script, but we're making a show about something that happened 80 years ago.

And I'm literally seeing the same rhetoric be told by, you know, Kanye West on his Twitter. It was so mad and really, really brought it home. So that's one parallel. Also kind of authoritarian regimes popping up all over the world now. It's like the same patterns, the war in Ukraine, the refugee crisis. There are so many parallels. And that's why I thought that's really what made me want to be a part of this show, because it doesn't feel like your kind of old, dusty, sepia-toned classic historical drama. The showrunners have really tried to make it feel modern, but not in a kind of kitschy way, but just in a way that really brings it home. And I think it's important.

Yeah. And I don't have, just in reference to your Kanye point, I don't have what he said afterwards, after those comments in response to it. So I'll put that out there for our listeners. But the other part that was bringing up a couple of things for me, Belle. One, you mentioned that you are Jewish.

Did you ever, or have you, experienced anti-Semitism yourself? Yeah, I have. I actually first experienced anti-Semitism when I was in primary school, when someone said that they weren't allowed to be my partner to a swimming lesson because I was Jewish and their mom said that they weren't allowed to hold my hand, which was so strange because she probably, this kid probably didn't understand what she was saying. And I was seven and I was like, oh, what? That's weird because I didn't even realise that being Jewish was a thing.

It was just something that I was. And I didn't realise that it was a big deal until I went home and I told my mum that night and I obviously saw her reaction. But yeah, so I have experienced you know anti-semitism at points in my life but I do think that it's really felt like things have ramped up in the last two years and it's definitely important that you know it's something that we talk about and that is combated but then also you know our show yes it's set you know during the holocaust and that's you know very much a big part of it but i think you know meat wasn't just meat wasn't jewish herself she wasn't just standing up against

anti-semitism she's standing up against just hatred and racism and bigotry in general and i think you know you know it's important to remember that too um the other part which which was coming to me just as you're speaking bell is you know seeing the second world war through the eyes of this woman because some of times it's so male oh god yeah yes yes yes i mean i it's you know i've been working now since i was young as you said for about 15 years and i've obviously been dreaming of playing a role like this my whole career. But I mean, you know, even five years ago, a studio wouldn't be making a show about a woman like me because no one wanted to hear it. So what changed? I mean, I guess it's post Me Too.

Like, yeah, it's changed for the better. People are more interested in hearing female stories now and watching female stories. And there are all these incredible, unlikely female heroes like Meep coming out of the woodwork now. They're like, oh, why did I not know about that person before? And it's so exciting for, you know, being, you know, a female actor like myself, because as you say, all war stuff that I've ever been in or been up for is always about a man at war. And this is not, I mean, I can't wait to watch the other episodes.

Sometimes when something is as good as that is, I want to eke it out instead of at the binge watch as well. But, you know, you mentioned something there and I was just reading this morning, actually, in the paper as well. Something you said in reference to Me Too, and you can tell me whether you said this or not,

but people have learned there's like a new code of conduct when it comes to Me Too. And you can tell me whether you said this or not. But people have learned there's like a new code of conduct when it comes to Me Too. I think you had your bum inappropriately felt by some senior crew member that you decided to just try and avoid that person.

But that it's a different situation now. And I was wondering, is that due to fear of repercussions, do you think? Or is it true understanding and a new universe? Listen, I'm not in the mind of a man who would do something like that. But I think the point I was trying to make then was that there was a period of time just post-MeToo where I felt like on set men were just afraid. And now I feel like we are moving into a new,

a period where actually people do understand. And, you know, there have been so many conversations around it that I hope kind of, yeah, it's changing and men are listening. I'm just thinking about, I loved you in the morning show.

I love that. I have to say Jennifer Aniston and Reese Witherspoon, people will know you are also, of course, everything I know about love, you are birdie say Jennifer Aniston and Reese Witherspoon, people will know. You are also, of course, everything I know about love. You were Birdie, Jenna Farley, you know, and we just felt we got to know you so much in that one as well. But I'm wondering, because I'm going to be asking my listeners about whether there was a piece of theatre when they were younger that inspired them, whether you had one. That inspired?

Yeah. Did you see theatre when you were a girl? I felt I didn't really see that much. Yeah. Do you know what? I didn't really see that much either. I mean, when I was, you know, a teenager, no, not at all. We used to kind of do our yearly family trip to see like a musical, which was always so fun. But no, I didn't see that much theatre. I didn't really get into theatre until I started doing it myself. And actually, actually you know my first play was by an incredible playwright who's still a great friend of mine called Polly Stenham it was called Tusk Tusk it was at the Royal Court Theater Jeremy Heron directed it and it was a very formative experience for me it was probably the experience that made me you know really want to pursue acting but that's something I'm in I

meant to think about something I've watched no no no no it doesn't have to be a company it's because we're going to be speaking to people who are kind of trying to get girls voices reflected and get them on stage as well so um I think that is perfectly appropriate Belle it's been a real pleasure thank you so much for coming in thank you so much and Belle Powley as we have been talking about of course is in a small light all episodes, if you want to binge or if you don't, are available to watch on Disney Plus right now. OK, let me move on to lots of you getting in touch. Oh, let me see, actually, with theatre. Don't have a name, but in school in the early 70s in East London,

we had an inspirational English teacher who took us all to the RSC at Stratford-upon-Avon. Aha, a little bit of Shakespeare to see Romeo and Juliet with Francesca Anis I was entranced, it started with a lifelong obsession with theatre, my daughter is also called Francesca as a result

I'm forever grateful to that teacher who was determined to broaden our horizons 84844 if you want to get in touch. Right, I'm going to move back to the news headlines you might have seen. Plans have been announced to allow more patients to use high street pharmacies

for some common drug prescriptions and routine tests. They say to ease the pressure on busy GPs. Some people questioning will that happen? Pharmacies are being asked to take on the prescribing of drugs

for seven common ailments. Those include sore throats, earaches, shingles and urinary tract infections or UTIs. I don't know if you knew that women are 30 times more likely to get a UTI than a man.

Half of women will have at least one in their lifetime, 20% more than one. So is easier access for women for UTI treatment a positive move? Mary Garthwaite is a former consultant, urologist and chair of the Urology Foundation. Welcome Mary. Good morning, welcome. Thank you very much for having me on.

Good to have you with us. So what do you think, I mean some might think a pharmacy is not the place to diagnose a UTI and treat it. What say you? Well I think you'll find that a lot of women already go to see their pharmacist as their first port of call when they think they have a urinary tract infection so pharmacists are already very skilled at knowing the basic signs and symptoms and whether a woman may or may not have a urinary tract infection and in fact the most uncomplicated or simple urinary tract infections it is really basically a diagnosis based on symptoms. Yes and I'm seeing that actually from some of our listeners let me see I welcome the news the simple of UTI are unmistakable a short course of antibiotics brings quick relief that is from

Amanda and thank you very much talking about overbank holiday weekend right if you couldn't get to see your GP as we've just gone through, or three indeed in May. But, you know, is there not the worry that some more serious issue could be missed? Well, I think it always comes down to taking a good history. And I would hope that pharmacists will have the time to do that. That's one of the potentials that I think this can impact on is whether pharmacists do have the time to listen to the women coming to see them. It is pretty straightforward in determining whether someone has risk factors or underlying conditions that put them at risk of more serious problems. And then they need to be signposted, obviously, to actually arrange to see their GP for further

assessment. But overall, I think the plans are a positive step forward. I think it will help women gain treatment when it's required, because, of course, not all women with a urinary tract infection will need antibiotics. And it's really important that we bear that in mind with antibiotic overuse being such an issue. So what I think... Sorry to interrupt you, Mary, but I imagine lots of our listeners are like, hang on, so not antibiotics, what should I be doing? Yeah, so there are some what should I be doing?

Yeah, so there are some really simple measures that you can do if you're starting to get the symptoms of a urinary tract infection. And by symptoms, those are usually frequency. So needing to go to pee, often feeling like your bladder is uncomfortable or it might be burning on passing urine. And the first and most important thing you can do is increase your fluid intake. And by that, I would suggest that you increase your fluid intake of water-based fluids. And in fact, you know, water is the most readily accessible and cheapest option there. Although your symptoms might make you feel like you want to avoid peeing because it's uncomfortable, it is actually really important that you do empty your bladder regularly and try and empty it fully.

By increasing your fluid intake and peeing regularly, what you're doing is you're flushing out bugs, which are basically climbing up into your bladder where they shouldn't be and causing the problem. So you're doing the best you can to clear it that way. So you can also use, yeah. Sorry, go ahead. I was going to just mention cranberry juice because it was in the papers this morning, actually. Yes, it was.

Yeah, so there's been a lot of debate over many years about the use of cranberry products and cranberry juice in the treatment of urinary tract infections. I think that the article you're referring to, which has been published in the Cochrane database, is suggesting that looking at a number of trials that have happened over more recent years, that it can be beneficial

and it can prevent urinary tract infections and also help to calm the symptoms down when you do get them. But I did notice that the authors do conclude that really we need higher quality randomized control trials moving forward to really determine its impact. But yeah, I think it has its place. It works for some women, but not for all. And I think just increasing your fluid intake will help. So that's the number one. But why do women get UTIs so much more than men? Well, one of the simplest reasons is anatomical. And if you think about the length of our water

pipe, which is the urethra, the little tube that attaches your bladder to the outside world, it's much shorter in women than in men so it's just purely easier for bugs that naturally live on the outside of our bodies and are not a problem living on the outside of our bodies they can actually at times basically go up the water pipe into the bladder where they shouldn't be and wreak havoc and cause inflammation and all the symptoms that are associated with that. What do you think about with this proposal? I mentioned that NHS England thinks it will ease the pressure on GPs. But we do know there are less and less GPs. Also, we know that community pharmacies, so that's anything that's really a business, everything from the pharmacy down the road to the large booths,

there's also less of those around. I I mean aren't there structural problems about it even if in theory it could work yes I think there is and I think that you know the devil will be in the detail of how this is implemented if it's going to be successful speaking to a friend of of mine who is a pharmacist, overall, it is a welcomed move. It's a positive move because pharmacists often are quite frustrated that they can't do more when women come to them suffering with symptoms of a urinary tract infection, because up until now, all they can do is recommend over-the-counter products. But it's, you know, one of her concerns was really how this is going to be implemented in terms of time for the pharmacist, but also actually how many general practice hours will this actually free up?

It might not actually impact that much on how many GP hours, but it certainly might well reduce the amount of hours spent by practice nurses and allied health professionals in general practice in dealing with this. So overall, I think it's seen as a positive move. But as with all of these things,

the devil is in the detail. Mary Garthwaite, thanks so much for joining us. Lots of people getting in touch on this one, particularly about Scotland. Regarding pharmacy dispensing, it's been possible to get treatment for UTIs in Scotland for some time. The pharmacist sees you in a private space and completes a thorough questionnaire. It's an invaluable service as UTIs can be very uncomfortable, but quick and easy treatment will help so much and avoids using GP time. It's a no brainer! Exclamation point,

whoever that was who sent it in. Yes, so most seem to be in favour of it. Do get in touch, 84844. Our unofficial look at opinions there coming in to our social media. Now, I want to move on from UTIs to Thailand because voters are heading

to the polls there on Sunday for a general election. We want to talk about some of the front runners, also what the issues are that female voters care about. You might remember in 2020, women played a key role

in pro-democracy protests. Many are seeing the upcoming election as a way to challenge the power of patriarchal institutions such as the military or the monarchy. The current Prime Minister Prayuth Chan-o-cha first came to power in a military coup in 2014.

He has been trailing behind opposition candidates in the polls and that includes Péir Tóng Tán-Sin-O-Bháil, the daughter of the former Prime Minister, you might remember the name, andinewáit, the daughter of the former Prime Minister, you might remember the name. And she actually gave birth, the opposition candidate, Péir Tóng Tán Sinewáit, just a couple of weeks ago. But it's back on the campaign trail, I understand.

Let's hear more from Jonathan Head, the BBC South East Asia correspondent. Welcome, Jonathan. Great to have you with us. Can we first talk about that, about Pertong Tan Shinawat gave birth a couple of weeks ago? She did. Actually, I followed her on the campaign trail when she was very heavily pregnant. I felt a bit guilty asking her to do an interview on stage

where she had to stand up, having spent the whole time talking to the rally, building up the crowds. I mean, she's a political neophyte she's 36 she didn't have any involvement in politics before but her family is a very powerful brand her father is founded the original party it's gone through a few different permutations it's a divisive party it's been ousted by military coups in the past her father has had charges filed against him which he says are political but he's in exile as a result um her aunt is her father's sister

yingluck was also in government and she also got pushed out as living in living in exile so it's a it's a third generation of chinoise and she stepped up to the plate uh and actually she's it's quite a clever decision by the family uh she's young she's telegenic uh and it was just happenstance that she happened to get pregnant with her second child as the campaigns or the beginning of the campaign was starting and um the timing was um she kept on right up to the end, took a break. Fortunately, it was a very uncomplicated birth, a little baby boy. And, yeah, she decided to get straight back into it. They are a very political family and it's a very important election. This is a big turning point for Thailand. Petong Tan's party are hoping that they can break a cycle of endless military interventions,

often in the name of protecting the monarchy that have blighted the country for the last 15, 20 years. So that's what's at the heart of this possible change. If you were to break down the parties, because that one is really interesting that you've talked about,

I suppose, a political dynasty, that little baby that was born, probably a politician, it sounds like at some point in the future. Who else is interesting that you're looking at? Well, there's two parties that are essentially what we'd say pro-reform

that are saying there must be changes. And in fact, Petron Tarn's party is a much more established party. It has a tremendous network in the countryside. It always does very well in elections, usually on promising the kinds of well-publicized populist policies that make people feel better off. This is still a very unequal country.

A lot of people are very, very pressed financially. But a new party appeared on the scene five years ago and called itself Move Forward. That's much younger, and it's much more progressive. It's much more radical. It's much more radical it's willing to talk openly about the monarchy this is a big deal in thailand the monarchy has been a sacred institution and a very powerful one for a long time it's protected by a fearsome lord you're not allowed to say anything negative about the monarchy and yet move forward has got a lot of

these people you've met referred to those protests three years ago a lot of the people involved in those protests have gravitated towards this party it's generating a lot of excitement i think for a lot of ties they feel even ties who might not be that radical themselves this is a country which has sort of been on the cusp of moving into a being a properly developed country for a long time but hasn't managed. There are a lot of very old-fashioned attitudes and structures that inequality are referred to, holding it back. And I think a lot of Thais feel we really need something new.

And one of the features of Thai politics has been that the army plays a role. As you mentioned, the current prime minister, General Payot, is an army commander himself or was a coup leader. And these younger people are saying, we've got to stop this. We've got to become a properly modern society.

So it's interesting when you mention the military or the monarchy, many would see them as patriarchal institutions within the country. And I'm just wondering whether the country is ready for a more gender equal time. And what are some of the issues that female voters, for example, are thinking about?

It may or may not be that the female candidates are pushing those issues, of course. Look, I think you're absolutely right. I mean, Thai society has completely changed, particularly younger generation are far more gender aware,

far more aware of inequities. Those protests you referred to were extremely inclusive and made a point of really promoting LGBTQI people with disabilities. And women were not just dominant, but some of the most courageous leaders, the ones who really went out front and took risks, and a lot of them have gone to prison. And Thailand is not, it is a very patriarchal country. The king is a very controversial figure himself that we can't talk about in much of a base here. The laws are very strict. Thai men tend to be quite old fashioned.

I mean, it's acceptable for a rich man to have a whole string of mistresses and virtually live with him. And I think this younger generation, as I said, this has got to change. And Thai women have always actually been very strong. They've always been the strongest force in the families. They often run the family finances. They're actually quite prominent in business when it comes to women in senior positions in big, big, big, big companies.

Thailand's got one of the highest representations anywhere in the world. But in politics, it's a different matter. Only 16% of current MPs are women. So I think a lot of younger women going into politics hope that they can push agendas much faster if they get into parliament. Yes. And what would those issues be, Jonathan? I mean, they're already in businesses, as you say, but not in politics. And I'm just wondering if there are any issues pertaining to gender equality, for example, that people are even thinking about,

or is it still all about the economy? It's mostly the economy, but it's striking that for the very first time in this election, quite a number of parties are pushing specifically women-focused policies.

For example, proper screening for cervical cancer and breast cancer. Quite a few parties are arguing there should be free tampons and sanitary towels in schools and hospitals, for example. You know, that paternity leave or maternity leave, that move forward, the progressive party is saying there should be 180 days of paternity or maternity leave to be shared between the parents. I mean, for Thailand, this is actually quite unusual. So I think a lot of issues that do concern women, but have not come to the forefront before, are being picked up by parties now who realise,

well, after all, 52% of voters are women. Perhaps they weren't put before, but by putting those ideas out there, I think they're capturing the imagination of women who say, yes, this is really going to help us. Jonathan Head, so interesting. The BBC Southeast Asia correspondent early voting has began on those elections, but it's May 14th, Sunday,

is when they will fully take place. Thank you so much. Now, I don't know, were you with me yesterday? Did you catch yesterday's programme? It's all about Julian of Norwich, who 650 years ago wrote these words. All shall be well, and all shall be well,

and all manner of thing shall be well. And we talked about words to live by, and also how they can offer hope and strength when life is tough. You might have actually seen the words on the screen that shielded King Charles III during his anointment, during his coronation.

Anyway, that's where those words come from. You can catch that episode from yesterday's programme, the 8th of May on BBC Sounds. Well, I want to move on now to another episode in our series about how relationships are changed and put under strain, really, when life happens. Zoe and James talk about ED, which is what they call Zoe's eating disorder.

They talk about how it's affected them since they got together as a couple when they were at school. Zoe's anorexia was atypical, so her weight was not low, but she was in the grip of anorexia. All the behaviours and disordered thinking were there and her body was put under terrible stress and she was regularly collapsing only James was really aware of what was going on and that was another fact that put the relationship

under pressure Joe Morris went to meet Zoe and James in Lincolnshire and James James started by remembering it's just so weird looking back at it shocking how hard it all was how hard it all was, how relentless it all was. But I remember so many times us just sat on the kitchen floor. Oh, God, yeah. With our arms around each other. Found a great photo of you, James. I don't like the sound of that. Let's have a look.

Hey, that's not too bad. Look at your tie. What's this photo from? That's us just before our prom at Sixth Form. No, it was Year 11. Year 11? Yeah. Oh, God.

Just finished GCSE's Year 11 prom. And you were already a couple? Yeah. So how old are you both now? 29. We only met because our names followed alphabetically. So obviously we got put in classes and things at school. We were put next to each other.

Poor James just had to put up with me in most lessons. How would you describe your relationship then? Photos don't say what's actually going on. Ed was very present. Looking back when you first met James do you think you saw signs of Zoe's eating disorder even then? Maybe not when we first met. I hid it well. As we we spent more time together I definitely started noticing things that weren't quite right. I don't remember much specifically, but I do remember one thing specifically,

was that you had a bar of Cadbury's chocolate. You're never going to let me forget this, are you? I don't know why it sticks in my mind so well, but I remember you seeming very generous and you were breaking off a square and sharing it with, like, everyone at school. And you basically just broke down this whole bar of chocolate and gave it just entirely to other people and never had anything yourself.

And it really bugged me. I think it sort of showed me the disregard you had for yourself and just worried me. So can we talk about Ed? Yeah, go for it. Who is Ed? Ed is, it's just a name that I gave my eating disorder. It helped us communicate it, didn't it's just a name that i gave my eating disorder it helped us communicate it didn't it in a way it just separates out what you actually think and what's the eating disorder taking over

so zoe what does it feel like inside your head when that voice ed is talking to you so real so intense a lot of people like like, with eating disorders say, oh, they don't get the voice, but for me I very much did and it very much controlled my every waking thought. It was like my voice, but stern, like, you can't do that. You mustn't do that. What are you doing? Very nasty. I wouldn't dare speak to anybody the way that I spoke to myself.

One of the things that anorexia does or can do is make you very secretive what's that laugh for yeah I got too good at hiding my behaviors I I'm such an open book but I became master of deceit I could convince him that I'd had breakfast try and make it look like I'd eaten or because I work in nursery I got into the habit of saying I'd had lunch with the kids and I'd had what they had so I didn't need an evening meal because I'd had a hot meal at work did you know that Zoe was lying to you I suspected at times that Zoe was lying to me. And then as it went on, I probably grew a bit more attuned to her when she was lying. So where do you normally eat then? Anywhere. I have no rules anymore. It's great.

Because again, when entrenched in those ed behaviours, it was at the dining table, literally, that chair. I would have literally gone to that chair and eaten at the table. None of the others, it had to be that one. I don't know why. Logic. Went out the window, but for some reason, literally, this spot right here, it became a war zone. But we've redecorated it all now and redone it.

It almost became like a trauma response because every time I'd sit here, I would think of all those horrible memories of trying to eat here. So we put new flooring down and put a nice big mirror up and the photos behind us. So you've got the photos up behind of your wedding. Yeah, just of a happier time. So what do you mean when you said this became like a war zone? Literally, the arguments we'd have around the dinner table when I was trying to eat,

the tears of frustration because I knew what I should be doing, but I couldn't. I just couldn't bring myself to do it. So then I'd get angry with myself quite often self-harm because I was just so angry and I just bite myself quite often which I know sounds bizarre but that anger and frustration because I was again trying to bury all these emotions they would build up and I would just burst I'd pop what are you making I'm'm intrigued. Me? Yeah. I haven't been out yet. How can you be making something and not knowing what you're doing?

I've got some bread out. You've got bread out. That's a very good start to make a sandwich. I've got some cheese. What's the hardest thing for you about having an eating disorder and being in a relationship? Oh, this sounds awful, but it's the intimacy side of things for me.

Because every time James, if he was in public, if he would hold my hand, my mind would go, people are going to see him with him. They're going to assume that what on earth is he doing with someone like her? He could do better than her. I was convinced everyone would judge me. If he'd come up behind me and give me a kiss or something,

my mind would be so focused on my negative body image issues that I couldn't see it was just him trying to, you know, come give me a hug. It would go to, he's secretly measuring your body. Why do you think that sounds awful? I just didn't really realise, to be honest, until it was going through treatment, how much I was trying to sabotage the relationship.

Can we talk about sex? I'm fine with it. We can do, yeah. Are you sure? Yeah. Bless you. So how has having an eating disorder impacted your sex life? You sort of lacked confidence in you because of how you thought you looked.

I didn't want you to not want to be intimate and think that you had to so i i'd you know not make the move but then you would think that oh he's not making a move so he's not interested in me so i am ugly i am fat which was obviously not the case in the kind of early starts of our relationship there's certain areas i said oh yeah can you not be self-conscious about that but over the time it just become my whole body was just like a no-go zone if that makes sense and i couldn't focus on what i was meant to be doing because i was too busy literally pulling my body to shreds i was waiting for him to leave have you ever thought that this relationship might not be able to take the pressure

you can say it it's fine i know exactly what you're gonna say i was looking at flats and thinking oh if we end up separating or something what am i gonna do and and sort of doing some sort of plan because I just felt so pushed away so often. Did you tell Zoe? Not until, funnily enough, a few weeks ago when we were looking back and chatting about things. To be fair, I don't blame him, because I did the same. I did the same. I didn't look at Flask and Frick, but I was beginning to panic.

When he leaves, where are you going to live? What are you going to do? How are you going to get by? I didn't know this. I can't believe you didn't tell me this when we were talking about this the other week. I kept it because I knew. Don't hate me. I feel betrayed now.

No, you don't. You did it too. I mean, you both sat here with me now eating a sandwich comfortably. Right. At the table Zoe just putting the last mouthful in could you have imagined being in this place a few years ago before it all sort of escalated

it didn't seem unreasonable just to be able to sit down and eat a sandwich together sometimes I'd just be fed up and I'm just like, just eat it, will you? Please. To sometimes say the right things. And what would the right thing be? Oh, I don't even know, to be honest. It was always away from the food that I found the most helpful.

So he would always say, you know, I love you. Do you remember when we did this and you did this and it really made me smile? Just taking the focus away from, you know, I love you. Do you remember when we did this and you did this? And it really made me smile. Just taking the focus away from, you know, the food and reminds me that I wasn't good. I know it sounds bizarre, but that I was a good person and that I wasn't this hideous waste of space that Ed's made me believe that I was. We'd cook tea together and...

Oh, God. Making salads, weighing out lettuce and cucumber and I had to track absolutely everything that I was eating. Oh, it was ridiculous. Took like an hour to make a salad, didn't it? I'd still look back at us doing that and think, why on earth did I agree to it? I think I knew it wasn't the right thing to be doing, but I can weigh everything out while cooking tea and Zoe might eat it or I'll not weigh everything and she'll refuse. I would have refused anyway half the time,

even when he did weigh it all out because it was too much or I could have got stuff done in this time. But instead, no, weighing out lettuce and, you know, it seems so logical. And I can joke and see the lighter side of it now, but in that time it was so real and so intense. What were your fears for zoe james i'll be perfectly honest one point when we're back and forth to the hospital i remember laying awake in bed at night and thinking how am i gonna tell our niece that auntie zoe is not around anymore

because i just knew that that your body wasn't coping with it and it was just getting worse and worse and worse and I thought, this is going to kill you one day. That must have been very lonely for you. No-one knew the full extent of what you were doing. This is my wife that's going through this rather than my kid. There's no support groups out there for couples. It is so hard watching your loved one go through all of

this of course it's going to break them as well i remember when you broke for the first time do you since when i realized that i had a problem as well seeing you break the way you did a and e do you remember i was talking about my heart as my heart rate had dropped I'd never seen him cry ever at this point he kind of took my phone out of my hand and like lobbed it and was like can you not see what this is doing to you can you not see that this is killing you and you just broke in tears

and it was like a switch in my brain and for the first time I kind of realised shhh ok this isn't right. He got me into treatment in the first place. After the doctors and everything had turned me away, I was adamant that I was fine.

He knew that I wasn't. Zoe went to the GP on her own and was obviously not given any help whatsoever. And that's when I sort of did more research into it and then eventually spoke to the person who leads our local eating disorder team she basically asked me oh what does Zoe do what are her behaviors she just said to me that's exactly an eating disorder she needs to be treated by us basically it's strange to think if things didn't get as bad as they did we won't be as good as we are now because we wouldn't have

wouldn't have got into the right treatment where is your relationship now compared with where it was I love our relationship now our relationship's good isn't it yeah so we can actually focus on us again

do you find you are still watching Zoe and looking for signs? I am conscious of seeing any behaviours crop up. I don't think it consumes me anywhere near as much as it obviously used to. I think if I say something or do something, it's quite quick now to ask that question, are you okay? I don't feel like I'm treading on eggshells.

I'm probably aware of things that I could say that might sort of trigger something. And to be fair, I'd probably say them and Zoe would probably tell me off now, which is good. Yeah, I probably would now. But that's good, isn't it? I suppose that you now call him out. I do. Actually, a few years ago I wouldn't have. My goodness, no, isn't it? I suppose that you now call him out. I do.

Actually, a few years ago I wouldn't have. My goodness, no. I'd have just taken it all internally and gone, oh. If people are talking about diets around me, if people are talking about weight loss around me, he is fabulous at just changing the subject. That's because it's a boring subject. Very true.

Do you worry about relapsing not now that's so nice of you to say that you know what no i don't even if i did i don't think it would be such a battle like zoe said we are actually much better equipped now i'm not trying to hide who I am anymore this sounds so cheesy but throughout my whole life I've tried to be the perfect person for everybody else I've tried to please everybody else whereas now I'm actually just free to be who I want to be if that makes sense and I've completely changed as a person over the past few years but you've kind of grown with me i think the new you now is just all of the bits that i liked about you most before more of the time that's right so well done get off for not buying flowers

no oh bugger. Quite something, isn't it, to listen to that incredible resilience of the relationship of Zoe and James. And they were talking to Joe Morris. You will find sources of information and support on the issues raised in that interview on the Woman's Hour website.

Now I want to turn to theatre. I was asking you a little bit earlier, what was your experience with theatre when you were at school? Was there anything that you saw that inspired you? Let me see. We have Richard saying, I want to give a shout out and a big thank you to my two inspirational English teachers back in the 80s, Dilys Porter and Sue Wilsey, who organised trips to the theatre as we were studying our O&A levels. They inspired me into a lifelong love of theatre. I saw Ian McKellen, says one, playing Coriolanus at the National Theatre when I was 12. I was fascinated by the actress, Irene Worth, playing his mother. I ended up using her opening speech

to audition for the National Youth Theatre, aged 13. I didn't get in, but my interviewer praised me for wanting to play an older character and says it's been 40 years of theatre love since then. That's Dr Clarissa Young. Thanks for getting in touch. Well, my next two guests are playwright Hannah Lavery and also actor and writer Sarah Middleton, who have recently taken to the stage with their respective plays

Protests and She-Wolves and they're aimed at teenagers, ensuring that girls' voices are heard on stage. She-Wolves and they're aimed at teenagers ensuring that girls' voices are heard on stage. She-Wolves is currently on a spring tour of theatre schools and also community venues across England. Protest is part of the Edinburgh International Children's Festival

and touring throughout Scotland from now until June. So they take a look at a lot of themes whether it's injustice, activism, friendship. Hannah and Sarah are here in studio with me. Well, I should say that Sarah is in studio with me and Hannah's on Zoom. Good to have you both. Let me begin actually with you, Hannah. Why did you decide to try and reflect young girls on stage?

Well, for a lot of reasons. And my plays for that kind of transition age between primary and secondary and I kind of felt that stories about that age are very rare and I wanted to write something that felt hopeful. I was in lots of discussions with young people and my own children and what really struck me was that they were really passionate about social justice, really anxious about the climate emergency and as they older, when I was speaking to teenagers, were also quite hopeless and felt like there wasn't a lot that they could do. And I think in talking to older activists, I thought, well, actually, I would like to write a play for that age group, which was

about how we find hope and how we find solidarity and that would inspire their activism. Sarah, I see you are nodding along there. I mean, do you feel there's enough theatre out there for teenagers? No, not really. I think that's something that we've experienced in making She-Wolves is that there's a lot of children's theatre, fantastic children's theatre, and people do take their children to see that, which is great. There's a lot of fantastic theatre for grown-ups, there is very

little in between and it seems to be a sort of unexplored audience and a sort of abandoned audience actually and I think there's perhaps a trend of taking certainly teenage girls to see musicals and less so to plays so there seems to be a bit of a gap there which is a shame. That's really interesting. Hannah I mean do you what do you think a theatre experience can do then for young girls or what you've seen so far? Well I think it's about I mean I think theatre and stories are about understanding our own experience and understanding the experience of others and I think theatre for all of us can be really inspirational and really life changing. And I think for young girls, being able to see work where they are the subject of the story,

where they are the hero and the main character can be incredibly inspiring and strengthening. And I think that, yeah, I've definitely seen that in the audiences for protest. I mean, some would say, Sarah, that there has been, for example, a trend for feminist theatre of late Sylvia, about Sylvia Pankhurst, or Six About the Wives of Henry VIII, but still not enough? is on stage in a way that is empowering because a lot of the time those shows are doing a great job at flying the flag for feminism and making shows that are female-led and are empowering, but they don't necessarily feature teenagers on stage. So there's very little for teenagers to see of themselves on stage. And I think even though that work is happening, you know, last year on UK stages,

only 30% of main stage plays and shows were written by women. So we still, there's a long way to go still. Was there something that inspired you growing up? Yeah, I think, I mean, I wanted to be Julie Andrews. Who doesn't? But I think looking back at that now and thinking why did I want to be Julie Andrews when I was a kid I think it's because in the sound of music she drives the story and that's that's incredible and there's still we need more of that and I think for more

people to have that experience of watching something like that and thinking oh great women can do that women can take control of their lives, you know, even in that situation. Yeah, she can parent seven kids. Of course she can. And she can play the guitar and click her heels whilst running down the street. Of course we can do these things. But that still is rare in terms of the narratives that are available, certainly to young people now, I think. And, of course, that is a different world away as well

when you look at Julie Andrews and some of the roles she played. What about you, Hannah? Anything that stood out? I mean, I was lucky enough to grow up in Edinburgh with a mother who loved theatre. So I was kind of, I saw such a huge range of different types of theatre. And, you know, I mean, I loved going to the circus. We always had the big top circus, which I always feel was like that sort of, I mean, I think I found anything that kind of excited me and would make me feel like, you know, I think I saw theatre as quite an escapism.

But I also used to really love stories that felt really real. But yeah, but I also did like the panto and the musical. And I think also that I was at a time where schools had the capacity, much more than they do now, to actually do school trips to the theatre. So I don't think I can think of anything specific so much, but I did see a huge range of theatre and I was really grateful for that. And it's something, obviously, that stayed with you. Hannah Lavery, also Sarah Middleton,

thank you both so much for coming in to Woman's Hour. I do want to let people know that tomorrow I'll be speaking to Mallory Blackman, OBE. She's written more than 70 books for children and young adults. Perhaps maybe best known for Nuts and Crosses, that series. Well, her autobiography

is published in paperback so we're going to talk about her life. I'm looking forward to that. And just to go full circle back to Belle Powley as we did at the beginning. The first piece of theatre

which made an impression on me, says this listener, was actually a production of The Diary of Anne Frank in the 1950s in Nottingham when I was in my teens. And I'm now looking forward to the TV series. Thanks for all your messages today. I'll talk to you tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. What could be more modern than a net zero travel show. A show about going places that never goes anywhere.

Welcome then to Your Place or Mine on BBC Radio 4. I'm Sean Keaveney and I love travelling almost as much as I love staying at home and watching music documentaries. I figure Massachusetts, you know, for somebody like you who doesn't particularly enjoy broadening their horizons, it would be sort of a baby step because massachusetts is kind of the heart of new england so you know it wouldn't be too shocking for you each week another fantastic and intrepid guest attempts to lull me out of my postcode with persuasion alone eat the insects too i mean that's what they do a lot in oaxaca

they normally roast them and then you can scatter them on your guacamole. There's something deliciously kind of earthy and umami about insects. Anybody who's been on the back of my Uncle Paul's motorbike has eaten a lot of insects, you know, because he goes very fast. Your place or mine. With me, Sean Keaveney. Listen and subscribe on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.