Woman's Hour - Belarus, Domestic Violence and Terrorism, Instagram pictures, Anna Whitehouse

Episode Date: August 9, 2021

It's a year today since the disputed elections in Belarus. They sparked unrest because the election was widely believed to have been rigged in favour of Alexander Lukashenko, who's held power since 1994. Three women joined forces to challenge Alexander Lukashenko. One of the woman - Maria Kolesnikova - is now in prison and facing trial. Maria’s sister, Tatyana, speaks to Emma on the anniversary of the election. New research appears to show that extremist attackers are often united, whatever their ideology, by a significant history of domestic violence whether as perpetrators or victims. Joan Smith is an author, journalist and the co-chair of the mayor of London’s Violence Against Women and Girls board. In the last year she has been part of Project Starlight, a government-led investigation to further understand the motivations of those who behave in this way.Have you adopted a special pose for photos to make all your pictures instantly Instagram ready? Do you do a flamingo, a street star or a coy pose? Emma is joined by Michaela Efford, a fashion influencer photographer, to tell us what it takes to make influencers look effortlessly cool and how you can do the same.Anna Whitehouse was one of the first parenting influencers. Called Mother Pukka, she had hundreds of thousands of followers looking at her pictures and comments on family life. But in her new book Underbelly – she explores the darker sides of social media and admits she shared aspects of her personal life that she wished she hadn’t. Presented by Emma Barnett Produced by Frankie Tobi

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to today's programme. From today in Scotland, almost all Covid restrictions have been removed, but there still seems to be some of the same resistance as there is in England regarding ending working from home, which has blown up into a row this morning because an unnamed cabinet minister has said that those civil servants who refuse to return to the office should be paid less. We don't know who this is, but the unnamed minister has told the Daily Mail that it is unfair that those who work

from home should get the same benefits as those commuting in with those costs associated. There is concern from some in government, it seems, over the very slow return to offices by the civil service and further afield, as most restrictions have now gone. But what do you make of this? One person who has gone on the record, former Conservative leader Sir Ian Duncan Smith, said last night that civil servants need to get off their backsides

and get back into the office, and they need to do it pretty quickly and that the office is more creative and fosters better mental health. It's understood that there has been a struggle to persuade civil servants to return to their desks for only a day a week but the government on the record this morning as opposed to an unnamed cabinet minister has struck a more conciliatory tone. Here's what Kwasi Kwar, saying the business secretary was hearing in the news there about the climate, has had to say on this issue this morning on Sky News. I think that if you're trying to make a career, it probably makes sense to actually meet colleagues and actually build a network, learn from other people. And I think that's probably best done in the workplace. But as far as I'm concerned, this is not something which the government

is going to dictate to businesses. I think employers and employees will come to their own arrangements depending on what business and what their company does. If you work from home or you just have a take on this, where do you come out? Should it be forced? And should those who work from the office

be paid more with those costs? You can text me here at Women's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate or on social media. Get in touch with us at BBC Women's Hour or email me through our website. I think it is important to stress that while a proportion of people working from home, the proportion has more than doubled in 2020 during the pandemic, it does remain a minority of overall workers across the UK, a quarter of workers. That's what it's put at. But it is the latest battlefront in the reopening of society and economy. And of course, so many businesses, whether it's sandwich shops or regular retail shops in terms of clothing or other goods, are remaining closed or running at

a low level because those offices are not opening around them. So there is a knock on effect. And of course, a lot has been made of the potential silver lining of the pandemic. Could be that women will be trusted to work more flexibly some days from home, something that they have pushed for due to care needs since, of course, women joined the workforce. And I'm sure that will be something that one of my guests today, the parenting blogger and influencer, Anna Whitehouse, a.k.a. Mother Pucker, will have something to say on. But what do you want to say about this? Where do you come out, especially when you hear an unnamed cabinet

minister this morning has talked about cutting the pay of civil servants who continue to work from home? Yes, it may be only a quarter, and I say only a quarter, but there is that trickle-on effect of workers. So we want to keep it in proportion, but where do you stand on this? Also on today's programme, far from the world of work, something I didn't even know there was a name for, the flamingo leg or the knee pop, whatever you want to call it. I bet even if you don't do it, you know exactly what I'm on about. Why do so many women, the minute a full length photo is in the offing, immediately bend one knee going up onto their toe on one leg? I even found myself doing this the other day

when I was having a photo next to my best friend at her engagement party. It was like a mirror effect. Everybody next to me was doing it and we all sort of fell into line. I've got no idea why it's a reflex for so many women now. I've got no idea where it came from. What do you make of this? Of course, social media has played a huge role. Do you do this? Do you do this weird knee pop, this flamingo leg? 84844, tell us your take on this. Of course, there'll be people hoping that they were out in the sunshine to do this and that's not certainly the case for a lot of people across the UK right now as the rain is going sideways in a lot of places. But tell us your take on this all all life is here on

Women's Hour from the world of work to the strange ideas of knee pops but also of course we're here to keep you up to date with the latest events around the world not least with what you've been hearing in the news with the fact that it is a year to the day since mass protests erupted across Belarus after longtime leader Alexander Lukashenko claimed victory in a presidential election widely condemned as rigged and a crackdown followed. And now the president is using this anniversary to hold a press conference as we speak. Most opposition activists have left the country, including the opposition leader who visited Boris Johnson last week after a row, of course, erupted over the Belarusian athletes who refused orders to fly home early

from the Olympics and is now claiming asylum. But 12 months ago, the eyes of the world were on three women who joined forces to challenge Lukashenko, who has been in power, of course, for 27 years. One of the women, Maria Kaliniskova, is now in prison and facing trial. But when authorities tried to force Maria across the border, you may remember this, she ripped up her passport and refused to go. Now Maria is facing 12 years for plotting to overthrow the regime and for extremism. In a moment, I'll speak to her sister who's in Poland. But first, let's hear from our BBC correspondent in Belarus, Sarah Rainsford. I spoke to her in Minsk earlier this morning, just before that press conference

began. Well, I'm inside Alexander Lukashenko's palace in Minsk. It's a really glitzy place. It was not built that long ago, but inside there's these marble floors stretching everywhere. I can see there's balconies with very fancy balustrades and massive chandeliers above my head. And this is where the most senior figures of the loyal elite here, politically speaking, are gathering to hear from Alexander Lukashenko and as well a lot of state television journalists from here in Belarus and Russia too and a handful of foreign journalists who've been invited, essentially, into the palace to hear from Alexander Lukashenko, who obviously has a message to get across.

But what we're hoping is that we get to ask him some questions, too, because it's obviously been a really massive year in Belarus. A year ago, exactly today, in fact, there was that very controversial election where Alexander Lukashenko claims he won by 80 percent. But mass protests then erupted across this country, the like that Belarus had never seen before. And so, you know, a year later, with hundreds of his critics behind bars, thousands of them now in exile, including, of course, the most prominent figures of the opposition, this is a

chance to try at least to ask him some questions about what happened and whether he thinks he's still a legitimate president right now. And indeed, the fate of, for instance, the three women who came to worldwide prominence because they united against him after that election is on our minds this morning, not least because we're going to be talking to the sister of the only one who's actually left in prison, Maria Kolonoskova. And I wonder if you could remind us about that triumvirate of women that really caught the world's attention. Yeah, it was a sort of accidental triumvirate because, of course,

Svetlana Tsikhanouskaya was the key figure, the woman who challenged Alexander Lukashenko to the presidency. But she only did that because her husband, Sergei, a blogger here and political activist, got locked up before the election itself. He tried to register. He was barred. He was imprisoned. He's still imprisoned, in fact. And so Svetlana registered in his place. And she was joined then on the campaign trail by Maria Kolesnikova, who was the head of the campaign for another candidate, a key candidate against Alexander Lukashenko, a man called Viktor Babarika. He is now in prison too. He's been sentenced to 14 years on what are widely seen as political charges just to get him out of the way. And a third woman whose husband had gone into exile, again trying to

challenge Alexander Lukashenko. So, you know, these three women really led that mass unprecedented wave of protests here in Belarus. They became a symbol of the demand for change in the country and a symbol of the fact that this was a peaceful protest movement. It wasn't violent in any way, but the crackdown was brutal. The security forces accused of widespread beatings, abuse and torture, in fact, of detainees in detention centres here in Minsk. In the area around one of the key detention centres, you could hear the screams a

year ago as the police inside were brutally beating people that they detained, thousands of them crammed into the detention centre. And of course, you can imagine in the wake of that a year on, people here are terrified. There are no protests anymore. All the red and white flags and symbols have been removed from the streets. And here in the presidential palace, I would say Alexander Lukashenko feels fairly confident that he's regained control of the country. With no protests allowed, and yet at the same time with many still locked up, and our minds, as I say, focusing particularly on Maria, who's still in prison. Do we know how the Belarusian people feel towards her and the likes of her who are in a situation that doesn't

seem to be ending anytime soon? Well, I was outside the courthouse earlier this week when Maria Kolesnikova's trial opened. And I was there with a small group of people, supporters and family members, people who haven't seen her for a year. They've almost a year, in fact, since she was arrested, they've been barred from visiting, including her father, Alexander, and of course, his sister, who's in exile herself. So it was interesting. There was a sort of pro-Lukashenko blogger there who was wandering around with her iPhone and asking really quite provocative, aggressive questions of the crowd. And one of the things that she asked Maria's father was, look, she said, there's no one here. Nobody cares about Maria. You know, forget it. This is this is over.

And I think, you know, that's one point of view. But the reality is, if you talk to people, yes, they're not on the streets. Yes, they're not protesting. But those who supported the opposition movement here in Belarus say that something has changed inside people that can never be changed back. You know, if there was a kind of widespread apathy in Belarus before, people kind of woke up with those protests, the mass protests. And if the protests weren't enough, then the brutal crackdown that's followed, I think, has not only scared people, but it has, I think, broken some kind of final bond that there might have been between them and the man who calls himself the president of this country. We are going to be talking, as I say, to Maria's sister. But just to say as well, with what happened with the Olympics

in the last couple of weeks, and of course with the Olympic athlete and the comments about Belarus and what's gone on there, how much do you think that will have also added pressure internationally, even if that support from Russia is there? Well, I think the US has said that there will be further sanctions. Certainly, opposition figures in exile like Svetlana Tikhanovskaya have been calling for more sanctions. And when you speak to some people here, they say, yes, we want more sanctions. We know it will hurt economically, but they believe it's the only way to put the squeeze on the authorities here.

But, you know, there are people who would prefer things to sort of tick along as they are. They're worried about the unrest that can be caused by protests. They look to Ukraine, for example, where, of course, you know, opposition protests there led to Russia's intervention, a war that still goes on many years later. So people are also nervous about what might happen here and where things could lead. So, you know, it is a very difficult situation. But yes, the economic sanctions do hurt. And the focus, I think, of the world is kind of critical to this situation in Belarus. And that's why I think it's interesting, in fact, that we've actually been invited here today because Belarus has been closed off to foreign journalists for a long time.

You know, ever since those protests, they've been really, really restricting who can come in here and who can report from here. So I think the very fact we're here means that Alexander Lukashenko does care to some degree about what the world hears from him and he has a message that he wants to get across sarah rainsford reporting for us for the bbc in minsk and we'll get the latest of course on that press conference as those reporters are able to start reporting i can now talk to tatiana komich the sister of Maria, who is still in prison. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Hello. Thank you for joining us today. We have seen photos of your sister waiting for her trial behind bars, but smiling. She seems to still have a huge positivity about her and the little that

we seem to know. Yeah, because actually she's positive for all these 11 months that she's in prison. Yes. And was waiting for the trial. And all her letters, all her messages that came through the lawyers, they were positive. And I was asked many times, like, if she's so positive, really? Or is it just like they say like that, that she's positive and she's active and now we can see we saw it yes yes the last week on the video that she's really active she's in really a lot of energy

in her she's so positive she's even like of course she she was kept for 11 months in prison and she was just happy to see the people, to meet Maxim Znak, who was also together with her. And the conditions in prison, what do you know of those? It's like typical post-Soviet conditions in Belarus. She's not tortured, yes, I can say it for sure. But it's like, it's a simple room uh maybe nine ten square meters uh now she's she's kept alone in a cell previously she had one or like three four neighbors with her now she's alone so there is a toilet toilet inside the room uh There is a washbasin

there. There is only once in a week possibility to take a shower outside for 20 minutes. She can go outside only once in a day for two hours in the summertime and one

hour during wintertime. She can read books. She has a TV. It's also like a normal state, but of course there are only state channels there. So all the information is filtered and all the letters are censored. And we know that she doesn't receive all the letters

that people send her. And we know that she doesn't receive all the letters that people send her. And we know that for sure. And we do not get all her letters. And last month she received 57 letters. And it's like a maximum for all these 11 months. How as a family are you coping with her being in there? We're hearing how she's trying to cope. How concerned

are you about her? Our partner is in Minsk. He's not allowed to meet with her for all these 11 months. He's trying and he writes emotions and appeals to do it but he's refused to do it. But he's refused to do it.

So he hasn't seen her for 11 months also. I'm abroad. I try to write letters from time to time. So the only communication actually is through the lawyers. So in that case, and it's not only about Maria, lawyers are like friends. They are the way for communication for political prisoners in Belarus.

Because actually, of course, they do their best to play a role of advocate, advocacy, yes. But unfortunately, they cannot make it, yes, because there is a law default in Belarus. And of course, in this case, they play a very great role for families, for political prisoners, because they become this one way of communication with our relatives. And you're not in Belarus, you just said. Is that because of political reasons? Yes, I was a part of the Viktor Babariko headquarters also last year, and I left Belarus just before the elections.

So we also discussed that perhaps we will need to proceed so that at least anyone can proceed the work. Yes, and part of the team left even before elections. And a lot of others, almost everyone already abroad, they left after election during the year. So, yeah. I mean, I'm trying to get a sense, I suppose, from you. I'm very aware of this press conference that's happening today. I mean, what do you think is going to

happen? Do you believe change can happen? Do you mean that Lukashenko will leave? Yeah, that Lukashenko could leave, that there might be something that's said today in light of the international outcry over several events, not least what happened at the Olympics? So what we can see that all this year, Lukashenko and other authorities, they say to other protests, gone, they stopped, they finished. But we also see that this strong reaction on protests is continued. Yes, it's continuing. So a lot of people still go to prison all these months, even now, for something that they did a year ago

or participated in demonstrations. But it's not only regarding some political activists, yes, or a lot of organizations, civil organizations, business organizations, who even was not involved in any political activities. It relates also to just organizations who help like mothers, children, some invalid people and so on. So, yeah.

And it means that they tried to clear all this civil activity in belarus yes and from and in parallel they say that the protest stopped but um why did why they do it actually yes why they got got people to prison till now because they're afraid so we see this fear in their actions, in their steps. And we also see all these inadequate reactions and inadequate steps regarding, like, for example, Roman Protasevich, yes, who was arrested in May regarding Olympic Games, yes, regarding situation on Lithuanian and Belarusian border,

what they do. It's really inadequate steps and actions. Now they cannot plan or think about any risks and consequences of what they are doing. So, yeah that we saw that and as sarah said before that actually this change happened in people mindset it changed a year ago and i think that uh for many people like they they open their eyes yes on what is happening that they don't want to live in fear and repression. They want to decide themselves what to do, how to live, who they want to see as a leader in Belarus. So this already happened as it changes. And that's the change in the mindset. And of course, how that then translates into action or potential changes is a whole other thing.

Meanwhile, your sister is still in prison. Do you have any idea what's going to happen to her? How long she'll be sentenced for? I mentioned 12 years is being bandied about. we see that Lukashenko and authorities, they are given very big terms of sentence for political activists, for politicians, like Victor Babaryko, for course, this is really cruel, cruel actions, cruel term. And it seems like for Maria, it also will be like very, very long term. It means that he do it and the authorities do it with the people who they most afraid of. Yes, as we can see.

And yeah, since now it's like for many people, for many leaders, it's very, very long terms. I'm afraid that it will be the same for Maria. But from the other side, I understand that this she will not spend these 12 years in prison. Yes, we understand that it will not change in one day. Yes, it's already happening for a year. But from the other side, we understand that this is our freedom. This is our future. And it takes time.

So we were sleeping. Yeah, we were sleeping for 27 years. And now we need to work to work hard for our own freedom. And as some would say, to wake up from that. Thank you for talking to us today and talking about what's going on with your sister, Tatiana Komich, the sister of Maria Konieczkva, who is still in prison. We'll, of course, keep you up to date with that story. I have to say, so many of you getting in touch about the state of working from home and the potential pressures or lack of pressure to go back.

And we've had a couple of messages actually saying that people have left jobs because they don't want to work from home. And this is continuing. There's no sign of actually returning. But we're also getting many messages, not just from those who are working from home and perhaps talking about the costs of that, but also who are civil servants, specifically, which is what this row is about. If you're only just joining us, an unnamed cabinet minister has told the Daily Mail, cut the pay of civil servants who work at home because of those costs incurred for those going in.

I'll remain anonymous says this message as I'm a civil servant but it's so wrong of ministers to say that we need to get off our backsides. That's what Ian Duncan Smith, former Conservative leader, has said. My department does essential work on trade following Brexit and during the pandemic we've worked longer hours than ever, not taken leave, will not get a pay rise in line with inflation this year so essentially a pay cut. If not for this work and this trade, trade simply would have stopped. My department is now a blended working approach where people will go in a minimum of two days a week or five days if they like. We're working together to look at how we can best use our office space to work

collaboratively. The point is adapt to the world post-pandemic and continue to deliver the best service to the government and to the public, of course. And another message here, the pandemic and our response to it offers a huge opportunity for a much more modern and inclusive approach to work, i.e. not one based on an industrial model that focuses on what is achieved rather than where or when it's done. And regarding paying less, this depends on whether there are additional costs, i.e. a lot of you bringing up heating and utility bills at home. There's also big opportunities in terms of reducing impacts on the environment through

commuting. There are fairness issues, but not in the way being put forward. I've done a lot on this over the years and working from home. That's from Joy, who's listening in Cardiff. Good morning to you. Keep those messages coming in. Huge response on that, but also some responses on the flamingo lag or the knee pop whatever you want to call it i didn't know there was a name for it but i'm talking about that thing that a lot of women just seem to do especially perhaps during sunnier times which maybe you're not experiencing especially if you're staying here in the uk when people are posing for full-length photos and they just put one leg slightly on a toe and my daughter this message here says my daughter started doing this when she was about four but less for photos more while holding court

I don't know why I don't get it another one here I always knee pop when I'm having my photo taken it looks more feminine by the way that's I'm a man who enjoys cross-dressing and that's from Julie a message here knee pop is because anyone millennial or earlier has been brainwashed that it makes us look thinner to create an s shape in the body and of course thin is best in quotation marks michaela effort is a fashion influencer photographer and i'm hoping you can help me with this is that why this is a trend yeah it is to make us look basically taller and thinner in photos that is why we do it when did you see this starting I naturally do it myself so I can't even tell you when because of I do it and I don't know when I started doing it well it's just one of those things I also agree that I didn't even know it had a name did you know the names were you aware of

this not not that it was called the flamingo pop. I just knew it was like the leg out or the leg up, really. Do you photograph anyone who doesn't do it? I think everyone does it. Everyone? Yeah, I just think it's a natural pose. When I get people in front of the camera, that is the first pose they do, or they put the leg out.

So just in case I did a bad job of explaining it, can you describe what we're talking about? So we get one of our legs up as like a kneel. Not really like a kneel. We just have one of our legs up and we have our hands on our hip just to make sure we're looking taller in photos. Can we talk about the hand on the hip just briefly and then we'll go back to the other. I never want my photo taken with my hand on my hip. I think I look like I'm about to tell someone off but but equally i'm told that this is going to make me

look in inverted commas better why does it do that yeah because it's meant to like it's like um it gives us like more of a like a slimmer waist basically because we're showing there's more room between our arms so it's basically like the teapot is meant to make us look again slimmer there's a message here saying i was horrified to be taught the flamingo pose going back to that because the idea is that it makes a girl turn slightly side on toe to the ground that it looks slimmer makes you push your chest up and out i don't think we'll see any guys doing this making themselves seem smaller i suppose the opposite might be true you might want to make yourself seem bigger in some ways if you're a guy yeah so when i shoot guys as well i basically shoot at a low angle so everyone looks taller do you yeah so i'm basically squatting all

the time and i shoot men and women and when you're shooting women tell me so they all go into this natural pose is that does anyone not do it everybody everybody who's in it because you focus we should say as i have said on only on influencers mainly on influencers yeah influencers and models basically models and does it come from the catwalk do we think i know you say you can't remember a time without it but perhaps that is where we got it from originally i'm sure i'm sure there must have been some model that done that pose and we were all like yes that is the pose that we're all going to try and mimic now on the streets I think it looks quite probably right in some ways when we see it in a very stylized and with a professional photographer but I think what I was thinking about was I was just seeing people do it all the time and as I say I was in

a row of women and everyone sort of slightly turned to the side and just did it automatically and I did it very badly I'm going to say because I've now seen this photo. And I'm sure I don't know any of these rules, but I'm just intrigued about the fact that you never see anyone not doing it. What are some of the other trends that you see for influencers and their photos? Well, we have the famous Kylie Jenner pose, where you squat down on the floor and you have your foot closer to the camera. So you're showing off the shoe details and it also makes you have a slimmer waist. We have that handout where you're reaching out to my lens and it's like, no, don't take a photo of me, but you are. But please do.

We've cleared this entire street to make you look really, really natural that no one was around while I'm promoting products. Yeah, so that's how we go early in the morning, like half eight, 9am to get, deserted streets as we own the roads. And like, yeah, just a natural photo, basically, we're trying to achieve. Any other trends that you see that have gone or perhaps are more now than weren't before? I guess the lean on the wall. No one really just leans on the wall anymore. Their backs against the wall. I think no one really does that.

But we do have the rocking horse now where we go back and forth on the spot trying to create that perfect walking shot. Right. So, yeah, I've been asked actually wants to do that in a very unnatural photo shoot experience that we won't say much more about. But thank you for describing always photos on the radio slightly a challenge. Michaela Efford, a fashion influencer, a photographer

and photographer of models. More messages coming in on this. Joanne, knee pop is definitely a thing we've got from the media. I'm 60. We never did this when we were young. We used to just stand

like a normal person. Now I find I'm doing it. See, it's catching. It's absolutely catching. And a lot of you saying you much prefer your images with it. So thank you for those. Keep those messages coming in on 84844. Perhaps you now know the name for it. Perhaps you'll be looking out for it. And perhaps you're looking down and you've just been doing it recently in a photo, or you can see those photos on your shelves. If you even print out photos, that's a whole other thing. I mean, the pressure to remember to do that and actually have some photos around your house that's like a job I never get off the

to-do list that I actually have to remember to do but keep those messages coming in and I can't tell you how many messages we've got about the idea of working and working from home and being allowed to continue to do so and this message I wanted to share with you before I speak to my next guest who I know I'll have a lot to say about this. Hello, I've resigned from a job that I started in September 2020 because it became obvious that there would never be a chance to get back into an office environment. I can't bear the thought of continuing to work from a tiny desk in a spare bedroom, never seeing anyone during the day with no social interaction at all. In 10 months in the job, I only saw one member of my team in person and there was one team member whose face I have never seen as he wouldn't turn on the camera for meetings. That is a whole thing. I also came to resent having my work equipment constantly in my home.

There was no getting away from it. And I think that while working from home may be liberating for some people, many will find it intolerable. Nobody yet seems to be agreeing with the idea of anybody being charged more to or rather paid more to go to work and actually losing some pay if they stay at home. As an unnamed minister has said this morning, rather not been named. Let's talk now to Anna Whitehouse, of course, one of the first UK parenting influencers. She launched her blog Motherpucker in 2015 and had hundreds of thousands of followers looking at pictures of her family life and commenting all about that. Six years on, she admits she shared aspects of her personal life she wished she hadn't and explores the darker side of social media and motherhood in her new book, Underbelly, which is something which we'll come to very shortly. But she is a

vociferous campaigner on the rights of parents to have flexible working. Good morning to you. Morning. So this is a row that's spectacularly blown up and a lot of people are also grappling with. And interestingly, the minister is unnamed and anyone else who seems to be quoted in these sorts of stories because they fear a bit of a revolt around this. It's very sensitive, this area, about where you work, isn't it? It is. I think, you know, we have to acknowledge that obviously it is an anonymous briefing from a minister, which is totally out of sync with where the Conservatives sit right now in terms of pushing for flexible working. So they're both at odds. I think the only way to describe it, Emma, is it's a lot of hot air, I think, from an archaic mind. You know, these comments are very 2019.

And I think they underpin a lot of that fear. I think employers are feeling right now, which I, you know, can sit in the hole and empathise with. But ultimately, I think what it comes from, and we've seen it with the CEO of Goldman Sachs, David Solomon, who also said working from home is an aberration that needs to be corrected. There's this kind of all or nothing approach. It's people talking in terms of everybody being strapped to a slab of MDF in an office or everybody being strapped to their kitchen table,

when actually, like you said in a text earlier, the hybrid model, blended working, that's where it's going to sit. So why are we talking in these extremes, I suppose? Well, I don't know if someone would say it's at odds with the Conservative position. I think you're talking more about the flexible working work you've done separately, perhaps, and what's been said about that by the government. But in terms of this around working from home, and I want to come to flexible working in just a moment with you, there does seem to be a divide about whether it's actually better for you to be in the office, socialising, speaking to people, working collaboratively. We've just heard from someone who says, you know, never mind the economic benefits to having people back on intercity centres, that they've given up a job

that they haven't been able to go into the office for. Where do you stand on that as someone who campaigns for people to be able to do both? I love the nine to five. I think this is the misconception. I've had so many people saying, please stop breaking down the nine to five because it gives me boundaries. It gives me a space to go and decompress. So it's not, it's about choice, Emma, you know, and I think often people I've spoken to are desperate for these water cooler chats. Give me that awkward conversation by the kettle making a cup of tea. I'm not pushing for people not to be able to do that. But I think there has to be an acknowledgement that the sort of flex utopia is a world where you can ebb and flow between home and office,

between HQ and your kitchen table. And so what I meant earlier is just that we're pinning everything on working from home when actually there's so many other ways of working, you know, compressed hours, job shares. We're focusing so much on working from home when actually I think most people sit somewhere in between. They want to water cool a moment, but they also want to be able to pick up their kids or, you know, coming back to what you mentioned earlier on the show. We're looking at diversity and inclusion here you know so many people overnight on the 23rd of March 2020 messaged me to say wow so it was always possible to work from home I'm living with disabilities and only two weeks ago was told this job had to be five days you know in the office and now actually I can see it was possible and what

they were saying was simply they didn't want somebody living with disabilities to work here so I think it's bigger than this working from home discussion almost it's whether you want to be a diverse and inclusive employer instead of just having a D&I officer sitting there saying talking the talk. Well there is a message just along those lines saying I'm a civil servant I started my role at home and I've never been into the office I genuinely don't think it's impacted my ability to do my job. Now we have flexible working hours. It means I can work at times that suit me and it's ideal. I want to know what tangible benefit going to my office will actually have, especially as a neurodiverse person who's got a great home setup. I don't need different routines for home and work. Just one is fine. A lot of people,

though, of course, don't have good home setups. A lot of people, if they're living in a flat share, are perhaps having to do Zoom calls, you know, in the loo or elsewhere. And I suppose how much faith, I mean, Kwasi Kwarteng, the business secretary, we played a clip of him earlier talking about the fact there are the businesses are not going to be forced. So a more conciliatory tone from the government one way or the other. How convinced are you that we will, or rather the government and those who are in charge will learn the lessons of the pandemic and trust people and will do that even if the economy is going to shift as a result of that? I'm deeply concerned, to be honest. I think already we've seen a lot of employers using the pandemic

as a reason to not implement flexible working because obviously we were working from home with child care needs kids screaming google classroom productivity may be wavered in a way so i think you know it's a dangerous period of time to be using experience of the pandemic as to whether or not we should implement flexible working or working from home or wherever you want to work because we were in a pandemic. We were in a crisis. Don't measure it now. So I think there's, look, we're right now,

lots of companies are thinking there's some grand revolution when really all it is is evolution. It's evolution in a digital world that's willing and ready to break free in a world that was born in the industrial revolution uh that has the tech in place that's what we've proved is those companies saying it will never be possible well in a 48 hour period it had to be possible they had to zoom in otherwise they'd have had to shut down um so i think businesses have seen the choice wasn't theirs and i'll come back to the word choice that give people a choice of where and where, when they work, measure what they're doing, not look at where they're sitting.

And once you do that, I think you see a natural evolution as opposed to like the government saying we're not going to force businesses to do it this way. But equally, you shouldn't enforce employees or employers to work in a certain way. Recruit the right people, trust them to do the job. But I do fear that there is a lot of, you know, archaic mindsets out there like David Solomon from Goldman Sachs, like these ministers in Whitehall who just have a fear of change, a fear of evolution. So they perhaps would also argue, and don't get me wrong,

we try very hard to get some of them on this morning to try and talk to us and to no avail. But they would perhaps argue also that they're concerned about the trickle on effects to other parts of the economy, to what's happening to city centres, to all of that. But a discussion I'm sure I'll come back to at another point, because I'm also keen to come to your book and some of your learnings. And so I think, you know, bringing what you've had the experience of campaigning is important on a day where we see this sort of story. A government spokesperson said, just as with other employers, the civil service continues to follow

the latest government guidance, as has been the case throughout the pandemic, and is gradually and cautiously increasing the number of staff working in the office. There are no plans to change this approach. That's the latest position from the government. Underbelly, the name of your new book, why is it called that? Is that because you love where you've made your name online? In the underbelly of the internet? Yes. No, it started from two places really, was my C-section scar and everything that went below that, the judgment of

motherhood. That's when I first felt judged, I think, was, you know, are you too posh to push? You know, are you going to have a natural birth in inverted commas? And I think that weight of judgment came down on me and everything seemed to go below that line. Then you put sort of the glare of an iPhone on top of motherhood. And I felt it amplified all of my neuroses all of my anxieties all of the judgment perhaps I felt a lot of it may be in my own mind but you know I was in a postnatal fog so we really wanted to delve deep into the relationship of two women you meet at the school gates through the innocence of their children and the impact that social media and judgment

within motherhood has on that quite beautiful relationship and and and also you touch on this and we we touched on this a couple of weeks ago on the program and i've still not been able to get it out of my mind um people looking at these websites that uh exist solely to slate people like yourself uh influencers you touch on women reading and posting other awful things about other women. And I still found it fascinating that we got this message, and I was really grateful for it, of someone saying, I can't stop reading these sites. It gives me such pleasure to read such awful things. Yeah, I mean, I have to say, it didn't give me much pleasure back in the day when I had a baby

on one boob and was reading about sort of what people thought of me, I suppose. But I didn't come into this world expecting to be liked. You don't mean the world as a whole. You mean social media just that. We're talking a lot about birth. Yeah, OK, go on. No, I didn't come here like to have some Truman Show-esque existence of adoration and pedestalling. you know, so I was fully aware that I wasn't always going to be liked. But what I did find interesting was everything that was being said on these forums, it wasn't all awful. You know, a lot of it was shaped how I operate online today. You know, a lot of it challenged me. And that's the bit I've enjoyed about the internet. And that's

why I wrote this book was I think you can have two extremes, like these terrible influencers going off to Dubai in a pandemic to do a bikini shoot. Then you have these awful trolls living under a bridge. No, there's a lot of people that sit in between those two extremes. Some who have very intelligent opinions about this pixelated world

that a lot of women have found themselves operating in. So 84% of hashtag ads are by women, just to give you some context. I't know the proportion of uh people online in anonymous forums their gender but i'm assuming there's more women there um and i think it's been fascinating to actually learn from people who don't particularly like what you do or who you are you you've also been very you've been very honest though about the fact that you regret putting so much of your children online at first. You've changed, not necessarily regret,

but you've changed the way that you look at that now and what you do. And you've got a whole strategy about that. Do you, what would you say to those who perhaps are also grappling with that and maybe have a problem with the idea of motherhood being so, you know, commoditised in the way that you described, that you can sell a problem with the idea of motherhood being so, you know, commoditized in

the way that you described that you can sell a whole life now as a mother and make money off it online? Look, I don't want this to become the next stick to beat women with. You know, I think that's what I feel very strongly about because, you know, you could have a postnatally depressed mother who's sharing photos of her child online and that's what she's achieved in that day and it makes her feel good so you know I'm not here to go to Sharon's or not to Sharon but I think you have to share it so I'm just stopping you there you're very aware of that phrase but it's where you where you share the experience of parenting just in case people think they're not catching it go on you Sharon's or not to Sharon will be my next book. But, you know, I think that it's each to their own.

And I have learned a lot. I'll give you one very short example. Was at our book launch three years ago, a man turned up who I didn't know and was hovering around my newborn daughter. And that was a very chilling offline experience that I've written about where I thought we need to shut this down and it was too little too late you know I have regrets I have made huge mistakes I'm not perfect but I never came to this space uh you know to portray perfection in motherhood and so I wouldn't want anyone listening right now to be like oh look she's on a putting herself on a pedestal for not sharing photos of her children no No, my digital footprint is deep.

And I have regrets about that. But also, I don't have regrets about the fact that I've seen social media amplify voices that were silenced, voices that were shut down. So I get fiercely protective of that side of it, too. Ever partial to a flamingo leg? I'm more of a hot dog leg girl myself. What's a hot dog leg? I'm learning so much today.

You know when you're on a beach and you've got your two legs in front of you and they look like frankfurters? Yes. Oh, that, where you're like with the sea behind you, which everybody might be fantasising about right now. Yeah, I'm not a flamingo girl. I'm more of a hot dog girl.

So I learn, so the journey continues. Thank you very much for talking to us. Underbelly's the book, Anna Whitehouse also, of course, a campaigner around flexible working, which is an incredibly pertinent subject this morning, not least as it seems that that is one of the latest big disputes that, you know, is either happening right now or is coming down the pipe. And many of you talking to us this morning and getting in touch with me, saying how you feel about this, not least because on a morning where we've had a major climate report from the government come out and from so many advisors, I should say, to the government.

And I'll be speaking to an advisor if she would like to call herself to the government about something else in just a moment. But a message here from John, who's listening in Glasgow. Good morning to you. Paying workers less to work from home flies in the face of the supposed commitment to move to zero carbon emissions. A point that is echoed throughout many of your messages. How can you be saying one thing on one hand and perhaps another over here? But then again, you might just say that's politics. And somehow we're going to get through this and learn something from this experience or not. Many of you very worried that the post-pandemic working world will not be learning any of the lessons of the last 18 months or so. But new research appears to show that extremist attackers are often united, whatever their ideology, by a significant history of domestic violence. In the last year, the government has led an investigation into this link called Project Starlight. Joan Smith, an author, journalist

and co-chair of the Mayor of London's Violence Against Women and Girls Board, has been feeding into this review after researching the area, which resulted in a book called Homegrown, How Domestic Violence Turns Men Into Terrorists. Joan Smith, good morning. Good morning. Thank you for joining us. You have been looking into this for several years.

What prompted your first interest? About five years ago, I began to notice how many men who went out and killed lots of people, complete strangers, turned out to have a history of abusing women and children at home, whether it was mothers, partners, ex-partners and so on. And the link didn't seem to have been noticed. And I thought it cannot be accidental. So if men are doing this at home and they're used to controlling people they're used to a high level of violence in the home their threshold might be lower for committing public acts of violence so that was

that was where it started from and it built on the fact that in the states there'd been quite a lot of research on you know the men who go out on killing sprees the mass shooters and over half of them turned out to have a history of domestic abuse and men who go out on killing sprees, the mass shooters. And over half of them turned out to have a history of domestic abuse. And they often include a female partner or ex-partner in the people they kill. Is it them as always as perpetrators? Or do you notice anything around them growing up in a home where there was domestic abuse as well? Yes. So when I was writing the book, I looked at about 50 violent men or young teenagers who'd committed offences. And it was clear there was another pattern, which is youngsters who'd grown up exposed to violence, factor like, you know, an inspirational teacher or an aunt or uncle or something. But there is a subgroup of terrorists who actually grew up with a huge amount of violence before they perpetrated it on other people.

What is it that you've seen and perhaps we'll come on to then how the government are looking at this and working with it to prevent something happening before. And prevent is now a very loaded word with what it's actually the title of. And we've got a statement from the government about their scheme. But what is it about going from the home to then an ideology or moving to being a terrorist? Because that's, you know, being an extremist of some kind, that's a leap. It is. But I think the link is male violence. So what I realised when I started looking at this is that there's a tendency to think there's male violence on one side of the room, and that's rape and sexual assault

and domestic abuse and all of that. And then there's this other thing which is called terrorism, which is also violent, but it's seen as primarily a matter of ideology. And the question I've been asking is, what if it's not just ideology? What if, instead of perfectly normal people coming across a website set up by a terrorist organisation, whether it's far-right or Islamist, and thinking, oh, these are interesting ideas,

what if these are men who are already inclined towards violence and they're looking for an ideology that actually says, yes, you're right, you're right to feel angry, you're right to feel this rage. And so the ideology comes later in the process than we've realised in the past. And if that is the case, and as some of your research will have borne out, what can the government, what can the authorities use that to do? Well, I think, you know, there's quite a lot of people every year who come to the attention of the authorities because they're interested in school shootings, or they, you know, there's quite a lot of people every year who come to the attention of the authorities because they're interested in school shootings or they're interested in, you know, a literature from Islamic State or the far right or something like that. The question is, which of those people are the most dangerous? You know, they, who had histories of abusing women, that wasn't known to the authorities.

So that wasn't factored in when they were assessing whether they were posed danger to the public. So what I've been arguing for a long time is that a history of violence in the family should be a red flag when you're looking for those people who are most likely to commit offences. And what would that red flag ideally from your perspective then do? What would they do with it? So they'd be the people that you would, first of all, you wouldn't close the cases. So we've had a series of terrorist attacks where someone's been investigated by, you know, the counter-terrorism police or MI5. They've decided that they don't pose a threat. And so they stop watching them, stop keeping an eye on them. I think there's a very strong argument if a man is a violent abuser to actually keep him under surveillance for longer,

to look at his behaviour, see if he's continuing to abuse the family. And I did find a subgroup of men who were abusers but only became interested in extremism when the family finally escaped from them. And we know that women are at the highest risk when they leave their abuser. That's the next year is when they're most likely to be very badly hurt or even killed. What we haven't appreciated until very recently is that those men, when their primary victim, the wife or the partner, is no longer available, they sometimes are so angry that they go out and start attacking people in public.

There's a whole series of those in my book. So Lord Anderson's report on the 2017 bombings, terrorist attacks, did actually say that we need to look very seriously at these men if they have a traumatic life event by which he meant if their relationship breaks down. The red flags idea would of course make a lot of sense to anybody listening who's not familiar with this but does that mean then we also have to get better at even knowing that that violence is going on in the home in the first place? That's exactly right so a report from a watchdog last month one of those organisations with a very long title said that something like three quarters of domestic abuse incidents are

closed without anyone being charged. And we also know from academic research that a huge number of these incidents happen before a woman actually reports them to the police. And that's understandable because she's quite often living with the man that she would have to report. And we don't have enough refuge spaces, not enough violent men are removed from the home. And, you know, if you're asking a woman to give evidence against a man who's beaten her up over a long period, and she's still living with him, that's very difficult. So I think what this calls for is a revolution in how we handle domestic abuse. Just looking at people thinking about also specific examples, you mentioned a couple, but also, we of course course remembered Biba Henry and Nicole Smallman and especially a few

weeks ago when their mum spoke out and we played out that clip and she spoke to my colleague on the Today programme. A 19 year old man was convicted of their murder and how does that fit into this? So the killer who as you say was only 19 he had been referred to Channel when he was only 15 by his school. And Channel is the statutory body that supports and assesses risk in people who've come to the attention of the authorities for one reason or another. He came to their attention because he was using school computers to look at far-right propaganda. And he was working with Channel for several months, and then they closed the case because they thought there was no further evidence, anything to worry about in terms of extremism or radicalisation, terrorism. But what they seem to have missed is his very, very extreme misogyny.

So when he planned these murders, which are almost too horrific to think about, he was actually writing notes in his bedroom at home promising and there's been a lot of headlines about a pact with a demon and so on. What he was actually writing about was he was promising to kill six women in the next six months, only women. And he was also obsessed with spells to make him more attractive. So it's well known that the police didn't get cooperation from the tech companies so they weren't able to look at his browsing history.

But one of the things that we really need to know is whether he was looking at incel sites, and these are involuntary celibates, very angry young men who blame women for the fact they're not having sex. So I think that calls for a wider definition of radicalisation to include manifestations of extreme misogyny. Well, that's a whole issue, I suppose, that we could discuss at more length, which I would very much like to.

And also, I'm sure a lot of people would have a view on. I wanted to just read aloud, though, to you, because of your work with the government, what the Home Office sent to us in a statement. The Home Office and our law enforcement partners have a duty to protect the most vulnerable in society. By working together to consider the relationship between violence towards women and girls and radicalisation, we can better understand how to look for signs of concerning behaviour and offer further protection to those who might be at risk, as well as reducing the risk from terrorism. PREVENT, the government programme, provides bespoke interventions to individuals

who are vulnerable to any form of radicalisation. By preventing abuse and intervening early, we may also be able to prevent radicalisation, which often builds on similar complex traits that are exhibited by abusers. You sound like you're singing from the same hymn sheet. What confidence do you have that this will now be used? I think talking to senior people at Prevent,

and one of the things I wanted to say is that there's now quite a large number of senior women in the counterterrorism programme, and I think that's made a difference. Some of them come from backgrounds where they've dealt with domestic abuse. There's a much greater openness to this, and what's come out of Project Starlight is a number of recommendations, including the fact that up till now, they do a domestic abuse risk assessment on adults. The question is, is it effective? Is it picking up the worst abuse? But they don't do it for under 17s. And so, you know,

there's a very strong argument that they should be doing that for under 17s as well, children who come from this background. And I think there is a real determination to use this to both safeguard women and children who are in abusive families and to safeguard the public. The question is always resources, because domestic violence simply does not have the priority it should have in the eyes of ministers, politicians generally. I mean, it amazes me just how much violence there is towards women and girls in this country, and how few resources the authorities have for investigating and getting convictions, which is very important. So it's like you've won the perhaps a theoretical argument, but the deployment of it you're concerned by. Yes, I mean, I'm always hopeful, you have to be.

I think getting this shift, looking back 10 years. Yes, it's fascinating to hear about it. And, you know, that connection is hugely interesting and important to have recognised. I just wanted to ask you while you were with us that this story today that you may or may not have seen about Eve Aston, a 20-year-old Manchester Arena survivor. You mentioned, of course, that attack, Salman Abedi. She was an Ariana Grande fan. She's been found dead in her bedroom. She struggled with depression. She couldn't bear loud noises since the suicide bomb attack,

which, of course, killed 22 people. I just thought while we were talking, especially about violence against women, but also terrorism and the linked with extremism, that the effects of this are long-lasting. Oh, they certainly are. And they're long lasting on the families of the abusive men as well. I mean, this is an absolutely tragic story that she survived the attack.

And then, you know, four years later, it's still having these dreadful effects on her. And I think sometimes, you know, when there is a terrorist attack, we concentrate on fatalities without actually thinking about the, you know, hundreds of people were injured in that attack. And I think that was a targeted misogynist attack. I think he chose the Ariana Grande concept because there'd be lots of girls in short skirts. And the woman he attacked five years before at his college was a Muslim woman. And he attacked her specifically. He punched her in the head for wearing a short skirt.

That's very important information. He was referred to the police, but it was dealt with through restorative justice and he had no convictions for it. Thank you very much for talking to us, Jane Smith. Thank you for your company today. We'll be back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. podcast we're going to be telling the crazy origin stories of the most well-known sports companies and their relentless quest to be the world's number one brand. Sneakernomics tells the story of fierce competition and rivalry, one that tore families and friendships apart and even divided towns. We'll follow in the footsteps of mavericks, hustlers and dreamers and hear their tales of boom and bust, fame and infamy, hope and heartbreak. Above all, this is the story of the people behind the shoes.

From BBC Radio 4, this is Sneakonomics. Subscribe at BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.