Woman's Hour - Belle Burden, Controversy at the Civil Service, Women in Sudan, Pelvic mesh

Episode Date: February 18, 2026

The woman tipped to be the next head of the UK Civil Service has faced multiple bullying complaints according to reports this morning. The Times newspaper says "there is more than a whiff of misogyny" in the briefings against her. Nuala McGovern hears more about the debate over the possible appointment of Dame Antonia Romeo with Kitty Donaldson, the Chief Political Commentator for the i Newspaper, and Caroline Slocock. Caroline was the first female private secretary to a British Prime Minister when she served alongside Margaret Thatcher.Belle Burden is a former corporate lawyer, a pro bono immigration lawyer, a Harvard graduate and a mother of three, born into American high society. When she got married in 1999, her wedding was announced in the New York Times. Two decades later she broke with convention and published her candid essay on the marriage’s sudden rupture, in the long-running New York Times Modern Love series. Now her book Strangers: A Memoir of a Marriage has become a New York Times bestseller. Belle Burden joins Nuala live from New York to discuss ghosting, grieving and getting on with life on her own terms.Tomorrow, the Foreign Secretary Yvette Cooper will speak about the plight of women and girls in Sudan at the United Nations Security Council. Stories from the war-torn country are harrowing. Sudan’s conflict began in April 2023 between the Sudanese Armed Forces and the Rapid Support Forces or RSF. More than 150,000 people have died in the conflict across the country, and about 12 million have fled their homes in what the UN has called the world's largest humanitarian crisis. Nuala is joined BBC’s Africa Correspondent, Barbara Plett Usher.Two years ago, Dr Henrietta Hughes, England’s first Patient Safety Commissioner, published a report laying out a plan for compensation for women harmed by pelvic mesh implants. The Hughes report set a deadline for the government, which has just passed without action. Dr Hughes tell Nuala what action she wants to see from the government, and Kath Sansom, the founder of the Sling The Mesh campaign group, tells us how women’s lives have been affected.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Helen Fitzhenry

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no.

I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is creation myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, this is Newell O'Moghwin, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the program. Well, the woman tipped to be the next head of the UK Civil Service has faced multiple bullying complaints, according to reports this morning.

The Times newspaper, however, says there is more than a whiff of misogyny in the campaign against her. We're going to hear more about the debate over the possible appointment of Dame Antonia Romero. Dr. Henrietta Hughes is England's first patient safety commissioner. She will also be with us. It's two years since her report called for compensation for those affected by pelvic mesh implants. Dr. Hughes is now pledged to take the matter of financial redress directly to the Prime Minister. We have the author Bell Burden. Her book is Strangers, a memoir of marriage.

After 21 years, Bell's husband left without warning. It floored Bell and it also made her ask who she had been living with all those years. Her husband became a stranger in an instant. Well, I'd also like to hear from you if that resonates. Perhaps a long-term partner that became a stranger, really became someone you realised you didn't know. And what was the moment when you realised that and what happened afterwards? We're going to hear Bell's story.

If you'd like to share yours, you can text us. The number is 84844 on social media or at BBC Women's Hour. Or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note. The number is 0-3700-100-400-444. You can, of course, be anonymous. Plus, we will hear why the UK wants to bring attention to the situation for women and girls in Sudan now. But let me begin with Dame Antonia Romeo. She is the senior civil servant currently leading the home office, and as I mentioned, she is the frontrunner to be Cabinet Secretary.

It would make her the first woman to run the civil service. However, she's been hit with a number of allegations from several people about her behaviour, including claims of bullying. The allegations relate to her time as a senior diplomat in New York a decade ago. This is according to documents seen by the BBC. And the claims have led critics to question her suitability for the role of leading the civil service. The Cabinet office say the allegations were dismissed on the basis that there was no case to answer. Well, I mentioned a leading newspaper has said today that there's more than a whiff of misogyny in the campaign against appointing her the first female Cabinet Secretary. So let's discuss it.

I am joined by Kitty Donaldson, the chief political commentator for the eye paper. Good morning, Kitty. Good morning. And also with this, Caroline Slocock. Caroline was the first female private secretary to a British Prime Minister when she served alongside Margaret Thatcher. also to have you with us, Caroline. So let me begin, Katie. Who is Antonio Romero for those that are not familiar?

She's a career civil servant. She's been a permanent secretary at three departments and she was at the UN Consul in New York 10 years ago, as you referenced. And I think the reason she is so sort of highly debated is because of her personality. She's very gregarious, very outgoing, Some say, some critics say she's too self-promoting.

I mean, I've bumped into her lots of times of drinks parties and sort of society events. And that's sort of that kind of approach to her career has wound up quite a lot of people in the civil service. That's so interesting though, isn't it that self-promoting, for example, could be considered something that is not, that is detrimental in a role or in a career that's obviously, meant to be full of ambition? Absolutely. And I think what you've got here is the kind of clash of cultures. You've got the kind of Sir Humphrey element, which is sort of,

I think probably a bit old fashioned, but also have you held by large swathes of the civil service, i.e. these are people who work behind closed doors and should not be sort of front and centre, should be supporting the work of ministers rather than being out as personality.

in their own right, versus perhaps a more modern view of what an ambitious woman looks like. So what is the job that she would be leading the civil service, as I mentioned, but the first of the female cabinet secretary, but what does that entail? Well, first of all, you're overseeing the tens of thousands of civil servants across the country, but also you are representing the views of the government to the prime minister. It's an absolutely essential role. And if the government wants to press ahead with speedy changes on its policy platform, which this government does, because it's being criticised for not implementing housing policy,

for instance, quickly enough, building enough houses, then you've got to sort of pull the levers across Whitehall and get things done. But equally, you need to be able to sort of stand up to the prime minister or the people around him and say, no, this won't work for various reasons on various different. issues. So can you outline the key allegations at the centre of this story? Yes, it's all sort of been muddied, I think. But the key allegations are that when she was, Antonio Romeo was at the UN, that she bullied, well, what was first alleged is that she bullied one person. And now what's being reported today is that actually there were several complainants contained within the dossier

that was handed over about her and that actually her supporters are pushing back and saying that this is misogyny but in the dossier is actually some of the reporting suggests that she was women were complaining which also muddies it too.

And you will have seen as I've mentioned the Times describing it as a whiff of misogyny about the claims if you look across you don't have to look too far to see so many reports on this story in various ways.

How do you see it? I tend to disagree. I don't think it's misogyny. I think there's several things going on here at once. One is there's been a massive backlash in Westminster against this idea that of a boys club in number 10, first of all, but quite a lot of political. We need to separate out the political appointees

and the civil service appointees. So Chris Wormald, who is the current secretary, he departed last week. But he also departed at the same time as political appointees, Morgan McSweeney and Tim Allen, who was director for communications. And because Morgan McSweeney was seen as the one pushing for Peter Mandelson's appointment to be UK ambassador to Washington, there's been a huge backlash, particularly amongst Labour's women and peas,

who think that this goes to show that women and victims of sexual violence children as well have not been listened to properly and that the interests of men have been put at the forefront for far too long. So you've got that going on in the background. And then you have the sort of, you had this amazing scene where

which is a sort of diplomatic drive-by when Simon McDonald, who's a former boss of Antonio Romeo, went on the TV and said, actually, she shouldn't be appointed because there are allegations against her outstanding. And so you've had this sort of furious row. And I do think actually the sort of we should just take it at face value, which is there are allegations of bullying,

were they properly dealt with, it doesn't really matter if she's a man or a woman, is she suitable for the job? And I think her allies are using misogyny as a sort of way of muddying the waters. Well, let me bring Caroline in here. You worked for the civil service for 30 years, held several high-level roles, as I mentioned, including private secretary to the Prime Minister and the chief executive of the Equal Opportunities Commission, Your thoughts on allegations of misogyny?

Well, I actually agree with Kitty. I think that misogyny is being used as almost a shield to stop people looking at the facts of the matter. And, you know, the problem here is that number 10 has briefed out that she is going to be the Cabinet Secretary before the Civil Service Commission, which advises on these matters, has been given a chance to give its view

as to whether that can be done or whether there needs to be a new competition before due process has gone and Lord MacDonald stepped in and said, look, I've tried to talk to number 10 about this, about this due process issue. They won't talk to me, so I feel I have to come onto the media.

And now, because number 10 of the Cabinet Office have dug in, we're now saying all sorts of dirty washing coming out in public, which I think must be mortifying for Antonia Romero. I think she's been put actually into a very difficult position. And what should have been done is this should have been done properly. they should have consulted the Civil Service Commission. They maybe should have gone through a proper new process.

If there is a gender dimension to this story, can I just add that I understand that four candidates were put forward as Cabinet Secretary, and the preferred one was Tamara Finkelstein, who would have been the first female Cabinet Secretary. She was rejected, and the Prime Minister chose Chris Wormwood. Instead, he obviously felt more comfortable with him. And now we're in a situation where he decided that Chris Wormwood. one world isn't up to the job. So there's quite a complicated story behind it. So you can see why number 10, when the issue is about Prime Minister's judgment in relation to the Mandelson affair, and arguably the Warm World affair, we're just wanting to just brush this aside and get this all

sorted as quickly as possible. And I think misogyny is being abused as a term because women were being bullied in the Foreign Office and the report that the Foreign Office did said that there was a case to be heard. And that should be dealt with. Maybe it can be, you know, batted away by an independent adjudicator, but it should be looked at properly. And the women, some of the women that were bringing these allegations. And of course, women can also be misogynistic as well as men. But I take your point, Caroline. I do want to read a statement that came from the Cabinet office to the BBC that said Antonio Romero is an outstanding leader with 25 years of public service. She has been appointed to three different permanent secretary roles and has led hundreds of thousands of public

servants to deliver for governments of all stripes. As we have repeatedly said, one formal complaint was raised nine years ago, which was thoroughly investigated. The allegations were dismissed on the basis that there was no case to answer. It's entirely inappropriate to resurface dismissed HR proceedings almost a decade later. But I'd be curious, Caroline, for your thoughts on what Kitty brought up about this clash of cultures. Yes, well, I think it's, I don't see any problem with, in fact, I think it's really rather a wonderful thing if the cabinet secretary has a flamboyant personality and knows how to kind of work with the media. I don't see any problem with that. But what I do see is the problem of the cabinet secretary becoming the story, which she is a fugitive cabinet secretary has now become. In this situation, I think it's very damaging to, trust in governments to have all these allegations floating around day after day, they should be, you know, sorted.

The job of the Cabinet Secretary is not to inflame situations but to resolve them. But when you talk about process, and we've heard people talk about due diligence and due process and maybe a new process, surely there are just a number of steps that have to go through before you have somebody appointed. Yeah, I mean, you don't, I mean, just imagine any other situation. where somebody announces who the winning candidate is going to be before the processes have been gone through, which is what has happened here.

And the Civil Service Commission has an important role. The original competition took place 14 months ago, and there is a case which it hasn't decided on as to whether a new competition should be run. Poor candidates were put forward to the Prime Minister to choose from, including Olly Robbins, who's currently in the Foreign Office. and why has he been battered aside? We don't know what that process has been.

The briefing in the media said it's because the Foreign Office had some involvement in the vetting of the Mandelson affair, which seems a rather kind of unfortunate way of saying that Olly Robbins is no longer eligible. Can Caroline, and I'll come to you, Kitty, in a moment, can Dame Antonia come back from this

to be the first female cabinet secretary? Caroline? Yes, I think if the... proper processes are gone through. I mean, there's a dispute here between the Foreign Office and the Cabinet Office about the situation that happened 10 years ago. Somebody independent should look at the paperwork, look at all of that, and reach an independent considered view, which we can all accept and just put that one to bet, hopefully.

So if actually she comes out of that, you know, well, then yes, she could be appointed. But I don't think, I think this is just a such a damaging episode for all concerned. And I think that, you know, number 10, if they were thinking about the kind of wider interest of trust in government, would not be allowing this story to run and run in the way that it is. Kitty? Yeah, it's all a bit unedifying, isn't it? I sort of feel for civil servants who work very hard, most of them, and to be sort of thrust into the line like this is hard. But I agree with Caroline, I think, I think, provided, you know, someone. one independent looks at all the paperwork and comes to a proper conclusion, I think she can go forward.

But the problem is now, of course, there will be people on the hunt for other instances of, you know, misbehavior over the last, you know, for 25 years in the civil service. So sort of every, you know, the knives are out, I guess. Kitty Donaldson, Chief Political Commentator for the Ipaper and Caroline Slocock, who was the first female private secretary to a British prime minister when she served alongside Margaret. Thatcher. Thank you both so much. Next to a book that has been called a hypnotic nail-biter. That's by the Washington Post, I have to say, I agree with that review. Its author is Bell Burden. Bell is a former corporate lawyer, a pro bono immigration lawyer, a Harvard graduate,

a mother of three. She was born into American High Society, descended from the wealthy Vanderbilt dynasty. Her grandmother was Babe Paley, a renowned socialite, one of Truman Capote's swans, if you follow that part of American history. Her family owned a stake in the village voice paper, so you're beginning to get the picture. Now, when Bell got married, this is in 1999, her wedding was announced in the New York Times. So far, so conventional for the elite world that she inhabited. But two decades later, in that same paper, she broke with convention and published her candid essay

on the marriage's sudden rupture in the long-running New York Times Modern Love series. From that, we now have her book, Strangers, a memoir of marriage. It has become a New York Times bestseller, a memoir of marriage. And I'm pleased to say that Bell Burden joins me on the line from New York, where she's got up early for us. Good morning, Bell. Good morning. Thank you for having me. And I'm so happy to have you. I have to say I did listen to that modern love and immediately started looking,

who is this woman, Bell Burden, and then came across the fact that you were going to have a book published. So here you are, and we're very glad to have you. But I want to turn to your account. The breakdown of your marriage came without warning. Your husband gave no explanation, immediately wanted to distance himself from your family. Can you tell us what happened on that fateful evening? Well, it was March of 2020, which, as we all remember, was a very scary time. The second week of COVID lockdown in the United States, my husband and I were quarantining on Martha's Vineyard, an island off of the coast of Massachusetts.

Massachusetts with our two daughters. We were actually having a very cozy time. He was building fires, making dinner. I felt very safe and secure. I believed I was very happily married. And then one night I got a call on my phone saying from a man saying that his wife was having an affair with my husband. And that night, my husband was very apologetic. He said it didn't mean anything. But by the next morning he had packed a bag. He looked completely different to me and he said, I've decided I'm not happy and I want a divorce. And he walked out of our house, got on a ferry and left the island. And at that point became someone I did not recognize at all. Hence the title, Strangers. And you talk about that look in his eye, that he had turned into somebody completely different. And I put that

out to our listeners as well because I think this story resonates with so many 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. So you talk about this in visceral terms, also with dignity. You're going to read a little for us about what happens after he has left. And I apologize. I completely forgot to bring the book with me. So I can't read that right now. That's okay. No worries, Bell. Don't worry. Don't worry. It's very early in the morning. But let's talk through. Let's talk it through a little bit what happens because I remember it. And it begins that your children get into bed with you, two girls and one son.

I think your girls get into you. They're in their pajamas. You're trying to explain to them what has just happened. Yes. It was that morning. And I was completely shocked, completely devastated. And my girls who were then 15 and 12 walk into my bedroom and get in bed with.

me and I have to try and hide my face, hide my tears, and tell them that their father has gone back to New York to go to work. And it was that moment where you are devastated, but you have to really hold it together for your children. And I did that for a month. A therapist advised that I should not tell them that this had happened because the pandemic was so scary. And so I went through a month trying to go to the grocery store, clean our house, and pretend for them that everything was okay. And that was a mistake because they could see that something was wrong. I'm going to read a little of what he said. He said, I thought I was happy, but I'm not. I thought I wanted our life, but I don't. He said, I feel like a switch has flipped. I'm done. You can have

the house, the apartment. You can have custody of the kids. I don't want it. I don't want any of it. I mean, how do you come back from that? It was very difficult, and I spent a very long time trying to understand why, almost like a detective trying to figure it out. I begged him for some explanation, and he would not give it to me. I went down the road of thinking maybe he was in love, maybe it was about money, maybe it was really just about me and not loving me anymore. but I could not find any answers. And the more I went down that path, the more it was just a road to misery.

And I think what changed it for me was really just switching the spotlight from him to myself and trying to really think about the life that I wanted. And for me, the falling apart of everything that I counted on, really allowed me to access parts of myself that I had not been in touch with in a very long time, including my love of writing and also the joy of having financial authority and autonomy over my own life, which I had not had for a long time either.

So you decided to write this book, first for the New York Times, as we mentioned, and then it went viral, basically, and then publishers came to you and you wrote this book. But you are writing as a woman speaking out about a man behaving badly in your eyes. And I don't have, of course, your husband's version of events. But you feel that in some ways that story hasn't been told so much or that there is a discomfort with society about a woman speaking out in that way.

I think there really is. I think as women, and I think maybe especially as mothers, we're expected to really just stay quiet about it, that it's perceived as graceful and good to actually not talk about these things to really quietly clean up the mess. And that serves to protect the men in the story and often is to our detriment. In my own family of origin, that's what the women in my family did, my grandmother and my mother, who were both formidable women, but who were with unfaithful men, and they stayed quiet about it.

And I think when you stay quiet, these things can get repeated across generations. So there was some discomfort with me, in my social world, with me writing about this, with me coming out of my lane and trying to speak openly and honestly and not vindictively about what had happened.

And, you know, you are in a very specific, setting just to give people context as well. At the summer house you mentioned in Martha's Vineyard, it's very affluent, an iconic island community. There's very much the country club where a lot of your life is. I have to say reading it, I kind of wanted you to leave there, which you may or may not. I know it was in the middle of the pandemic,

so people were hanging on to whatever social outings they were able to have at that point. But I was also struck, and I suppose the club is part of this, the reactions that men and women hod to you telling your story. What surprised you? Well, first I would say there was so much kindness, so much moving towards me and my pain, which I really learned from because I don't think I would have been, I would have done that. So I learned a lot from that.

From men and women? Sorry, Belle, to step on you, but from men and women? From men and women. I had a man stopped me on the street, someone I did not know well, come over to me and say, I am so sorry that this happened to you. And it's one sentence, but it meant so much to me to be seen in that way. So yes, kindness from both men and women. And then a few moments of real unkindness from both men and women that when I look at now,

they probably were bringing their own personal stories to it. I know they were. But there was a sexist bent to it that maybe my, ex-husband should remain a member of the club and not me. Whereas if I had been the person who had an affair and left the island and left my kids, I don't think I would have been treated that way. So I'm able to see that now with some perspective. I mean, part of this story as well, as I mentioned, you come from money, to put it quite frankly. And whether you do come from money or whether you don't, I think people that are going through a divorce,

there's always a question about who gets what. I think you feel that you were naive in some of your dealings financially. And I think some of that would resonate, particularly with women, actually, because maybe they weren't working outside the home, like you were not to the level that he was, for example. Can you tell me a little bit about that,

about what you've learned in that respect about financial authorities? or financial literacy? Yes, I would say from the very beginning, I handed my financial life over to my husband. And I did that with great trust and love. I believe that he was better able to understand it, even though I was a former corporate lawyer.

And his ears went by, I was even more convinced of that, that he could understand it and I could not. And so while I paid our bills online, I lost touch with the big picture of whose name was on what, of how much assets, where the assets sat. And that really came back to haunt me, that I did not have that knowledge, that I did not read our tax returns. And I hope, if anything comes from my book, that women, whether they're married or getting married or not

married in a partnership, that they really take a look at all of that on a regular basis and have a conversation with their partner about what will happen if the relationship ends, no matter how happily married they are? You know, you've just been speaking for a few minutes, Bell, but I have one message saying this piece of radio is so powerful. The circumstances of my marriage breakdown are different, but this is so relevant. I feel seen and heard. I know you have heard that so many times since this book has come out. There's another, my husband during stress survival at his work, became distant. I blamed his work situation. His drinking increased. He was not a happy man. I challenged him saying we needed time together,

but his response was to admit he didn't love me anymore. After 35 years, I told him it's a different sort of love, surely, but he was bent on leaving no explanation, and that was the most painful thing, not knowing where we had gone wrong or where I went wrong. I felt foolish and had no explanation to friends and family. And I'd say that would resonate with you, because then it's like, what is your past?

And you've had this lady 35 years, I think it's a woman that's in touch with you. It was 21. with no, as people say now, no red flags. Yes, with the financial aspects when you look back, but not on the love and the day-to-day intimacy. That's correct. I do see red flags on the financial story and there are reasons why I willfully ignored those.

But I did not see red flags going along those 20 years that would point to this kind of ending. In response to the person who emailed, I think it is really painful. I think marriage is end, but to not have that explanation is very, very hard. What I would say is that I think it's possible to look back on those years and your love story and have that be real and true that there was love and there were happy years and also have an understanding that it ended badly.

That's what I try to do. And I tried to do that in the book to really reconstruct us falling in the same. love and our happiness as a family that felt really important to do for my children. Let me talk about your children. Writing the book, you know, you dedicated to them. You have three children, as I mentioned. You will know there are some in your wider circle that branded you as a bad mother for writing this at all.

And people can understand. It's such a sensitive topic. your children then become more known in public, for example. But why did you write it? How would you explain it? I think from the beginning, starting with Modern Love and then with the book, I really wanted to write the truth of what happened, not just to me, but for them. And I do believe that my hope, and I can't prove that this is true,

But my hope is that by being open and honest with them, they will have a greater understanding about it. They will have a better shot at this kind of behavior not being repeated in their lives. And I take the criticism. I understand why some people think that a mother should not write about the father of their children in this way. But I hope those people will read the book and understand that I've tried to write this in a compassionate way. And I hope that they will see that there is a benefit to women telling their stories in a way that is not spiteful, but that is true and honest. And I do think the world would be a better place if more of us did that. Yeah. And you talk about Manny saying, was it cathartic to write it

down, which you feel is a gendered way of looking at it? I do. I think it implies that we as women are just like really hysterical and mad and if we just get it on the page we'll feel better. I don't think a male writer would be asked if it was cathartic. I think all writers, male or female, write to figure things out. And I certainly did that. And it was very helpful to me to not really reach an understanding about my ex-husband, but to reach some understanding of myself and the decisions that I made over 20 years and what I wanted my life to look like going forward. I have to say, yeah, it's a fascinating book. Are you working on anything else, Bell? I am. I'm not working on more memoir. I'm hoping to turn to fiction, which I've started.

I find it a lot more difficult to have to make it all up. Well, thank you for spending some of your very early morning with us from New York, Belle Burden, her book, Strangers, and Memoir of Marriage is out now. Thanks for your messages that have been coming in. I thought we were happily married for 30 years when I discovered my husband had been having an affair for six years and was thinking about renting a flat with his mistress. I realized I didn't know who he was.

Seven years later, we're still together. The affair finally ended. We're okay, although I'll never really be sure if I know him again. 8444-4 if you'd like to get in touch Bell's book on her story resonating with many of you this morning. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids.

I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is creation myth.

Available now, wherever you get your pocket. Now, tomorrow the Foreign Secretary, Beck Cooper, will speak about the plight of women and girls in Sudan at the United Nations Security Council. Stories from the war-torn country are harrowing. Sudan's conflict, you might remember, began in April 2023 with the Sudanese Armed Forces and the Rapid Support Forces, RSF, battling one another. More than 150,000 people have died in the conflict across the country. About 12 million have fled their homes in what the UN has. called the world's largest humanitarian crisis. A social affairs minister in the army-backed Sudanese government has described what's happening in Sudan today as the world's worst sexual violence

where rape has been used as a weapon of war to terrorise and control the population. I want to bring in the BBC's Africa correspondent, Barbara Plett. Asher, good to have you with us, Barbara. For people that haven't been following events so closely, can you explain how Sudan has reached this point and at times was very little spotlight on it? Well, as you mentioned, Sudan was going through a political transition nearly three years ago

in its top two generals, the head of the army and the head of a powerful paramilitary force. And they seized control of that process by carrying out a coup, but then they turned on each other over the terms of how and whether the paramilitary is known as the rapid support force would integrate into the army. And at first it seemed like this would just be a battle within the security state. But then it evolved into this massive conflict as both sides kind of built, coalitions and the conflict became fueled by longstanding local grievances. And so it's been this terrible, terribly destructive all-out war created the world's worst humanitarian crisis, millions

displaced, millions facing acute food shortages, famine in parts of the country, and these terrible abuses committed by armed men against civilians acting with impunity. And there have been bouts of international outrage is what I would call it, but none of them have actually ended up in changing the situation. the widespread reports of sexual violence. What have women told you? I know you were there at the end of last year, for example. What did you hear about the situation?

So the situation about rape and sexual violence is that it is widespread and systematic. The UN has determined that both sides have committed sexual violence, but they've said in particular with the RSF, It is being used as a weapon of war. And that involves gang rapes, it involves abduction of girls, it involves

attacks based on ethnicity that are particularly violent and racist. When I go to Sudan, and I've been several times, I'm always hearing stories of sexual abuse. In November, we went to a camp for survivors of the RSF capture of the city of Alfasher. And there,

we heard in particular about the attempts of people to escape from the city, and at the checkpoints, they would be stopped. and very often the girls were selected from the cars or the lines at the checkpoints and taken away. I remember in particular, though, Nula, last year I spoke with a woman at a market just on the edge of RSF-held territory, and she was now working in the market, and she said that armed men had broken into her house and demanded that she hand over her daughters, and she had said, no, take me instead, take me not my daughters, which was a very disturbing story.

and I also spoke with a group of women who are still living in RSF held territory. They'd come out briefly to shop at this market. So they were talking to me about the dire conditions that they were under. And then I said, well, you know, what about rape? And everyone fell silent. And then one woman, she just exploded. She said, you know, of course there are so many women here who've been raped, who've been violated, but they won't talk about it because what difference would it make anyway?

She said, you know, if we get back late from the market at night, the RSF could take and keep some of our girls for five or six days, where is the world? Why don't you help us? And like I said, I have heard many stories, but that was like a searing cry for help, and I've just never forgotten that. Some of those stories, I have to say, very harrowing indeed. We started by saying, Barbara,

you know, that the UK's Foreign Secretary of Eck Cooper will be raising this at the UN tomorrow, specifically the plight of women and girls in Sudan. But I suppose what can she hope to achieve? You talk about those bouts of action, by the international community. Yes, she is very determined to cast a spotlight on Sudan, and especially tackling sexual violence there.

She's called this a war being waged on women's bodies with unprecedented levels of violence, sexual slavery, and abductions. Those have been her words so far. So she has said that she wants to make sure these stories are not heard, that the world has turned its back, and it shouldn't be doing that. And I guess that will be the main motivation, that she'll be wanting to make sure the stories are heard,

but also that there are consequences for the perpetrators, that there are accountability, and these men are operating basically with virtual impunity. In that respect, that last part hasn't happened, despite international concerns. The war is very complex. It has complex internal dynamics, but it's also supported by outside powers.

So it's very difficult to get even a humanitarian truce, let alone action on sexual violence. So I think in broad terms, the UK is using its presidency of the Security Council this month to draw attention to this matter, but also more widely the crisis in Sudan. And the Britain has also given 20 million pounds towards helping survivors of sexual violence in Sudan with frontline services and also working with social stigma that people face in the communities. And of course, you kind of allude to that as well as you talk about some of those women that you encountered. there will be various agencies, various bodies, that will be documenting the sexual violence, whether it's systemic or individual cases.

But I suppose it's very hard to prosecute until a war comes to an end. Yes, I think so. I mean, certainly the International Criminal Court has been taking evidence, is documenting. Now, it has a remit for the Western region of Sudan called Darfur from previous conflicts. So it's able to work without a new license, if you want to put it that way.

And that's the area where the RSF has control. So I think a lot of the evidence it will document will have to do with RSF atrocities, although, as I mentioned, both sides have committed them. But if you're talking about bringing a war to an end, why would you give up your arms if you're afraid that you could be put in a war crimes trial when it ends? So it's quite complicated in terms of how you, move forward now and also I would say in terms of providing services for the women who are raped,

the lack of funding is an issue. I was speaking to the social affairs minister you mentioned earlier. I spoke to her last year. She was running actually a private project for quite modest. They were helping women. I think they managed to reach about 35 sexual violence survivors a month, but because of cuts in USAID, they'd had to scrap that project. And that's just, you know, tens of thousands of dollars, but even that, you know, wasn't available. I remember her saying to me, the women who've been raped by armed men, they don't have the luxury of being depressed. They don't have the luxury of being depressed, meaning that the demands of war are just so all-consuming, finding food, needing to plea. There's just no space to deal with trauma. So that's,

that's something that's building up and is not being addressed. The social affairs minister, Salaima Ishak al-Khalifa. Thank you very much, Barbara Pleth, Usher, speaking to us. She's the BBC's Africa correspondent and was in Sudan at the end of last year. And a little which Barbara has mentioned. The Foreign Secretary Yvette Cooper has talked and said that the international community has failed. The women of Sudan, the stories of brutal attacks, sexual torture, public rape, used as weapons in conflict against fleeing women and children are truly horrendous. It's a war waged on women's bodies.

Yet too often these stories are not heard and the world turns its back. She also said the UK is stepping up support for survivors, We will not look away. Last month, Yvette Cooper said she stood at the Sudanese border and announced £20 million of new UK funding, which will support survivors of conflict-related sexual violence to access medical and psychological support in Sudan. Now, you might already know about our new podcast to send in the spotlight.

It aims to reimagine support for children with special educational needs. The Woman's Hour Instagram account features regular contributors, Carrie and David Grant, among them. and we thought we'd share with you some of the stories of the achievements of young people with special educational needs and disabilities that we feature on the podcast. Today I want you to meet Nadia from Nottingham.

She's 22. She has Mosaic Down syndrome. Her mom nominated her for her recent success using public transport. Hello, I am Nadia. And hello, I am Diane Nadia's mom. Natalie is my travel trainer. Yeah.

When I first met him, I was not sure. Yeah. But I did get to know her. And she's actually, she's really, really fun. She likes Lego. We talk a lot about good stuff. Yeah, she likes her films and things, didn't she? Yeah.

You have a good chat with her. Yeah. So when she started your travel training, can you remember how the process went? She would have used to go and pick me up and we'd walk to the bus stop. She would sit next to me and get the bus into town. You did that a few times, didn't you? just went to town and back.

Yeah. And then eventually you started doing it on an actual college day. Yeah. So then she'd take you to town. And then on the second bus, because you have to get two buses for college, don't you? Yeah. My daughter Nadia has mosaic down syndrome.

This is a very rare form of down syndrome. Nadia faces significant learning challenges and can be vulnerable, but she's also capable, curious and full of personality. Sometimes her disability isn't obvious to others. and that can be quite difficult at times. Being a parent of a young person with special needs is basically living in a constant state of pride and panic. I desperately want Nadia to be independent and confident

and live in her best life, but I also want to follow her from a safe distance just in case. So it's about letting her go, having a bit of faith in her, and pretending I'm totally fine with it. When she started to say that you were getting confident, what was the next step. Can you remember that? Would she still meet you from home?

No, I would meet her in town at the 89 bus stop. So you travelled all the way from home to town on your own? Yes, I did. And how did that feel? It felt great and it still does feel great, to bring us. So you love it? Yeah. Yeah?

How does your mum feel? How do I feel? I think you feel. It's too worthy to do. that and you don't want me to spread my wings. But it is needed at the end of the day. Absolutely. It's not about me, is it? It's about you.

Yeah. It's not like I not need you anymore. Still will. Okay. The thing is that she's actually doing amazing, way better than we could have ever imagined. She's grown in confidence. She's coping.

She's smashing it. You travel to town and then what have you done this way? week that's been absolutely amazing. Got the bus into town. Got the 8 to 9 bus by myself to college. I'm in my travel train at college. How does that make you feel? Feels great.

Yeah? To finally be independent. Yeah. I just love it, really. I love the experience. We can get to college. What's the next step? Trying to get both buses back home.

Yeah. And then eventually you'll do it all. without your troll trainer? The whole thing. Yeah. Wow. What's next? I don't know. We'll see when it happens. Very proud of you.

You're amazing. Well done, Nadia, with her mum, Diane, there. If you'd like to hear more, just search for sending the spotlight on BBC Sounds. You can catch up on all our episodes and new ones do drop on Monday. I want to read a couple more messages that came in on strangers in your long-term relationship. As a husband who ought to leave, our worldviews just didn't match. I was astonished that my wife saw no red flags and could not face being retramatized, unpacking it all in the face of an aggressive interrogation. Trying to explain can feel like further emotional abuse.

I have compassion for my ex-wife and wish her well, but closure was just not possible. On the other end, I had been with my husband for 35 years from the age of 16 when he left after admitting to an affair for the previous five months. I had no clue because nothing between us had changed. It wasn't even worth going to marriage guidance to try and sort out whatever the problem was. The pain runs very deep because he gave no reason. Now, I want to turn to pelvic mesh. This month, two years ago, Dr. Henrietta Hughes published her report laying out a plan for compensation for women harmed by pelvic mesh implants.

The Hughes report set a deadline for the government for action, which has just passed. without any action. Pelvic mesh implants were once seen as a revolutionary treatment. They were the gold standard for women that were dealing with prolapse or stress incontinence, but thousands of women have been left with severe difficulties after receiving them. Some ought to quit their jobs, live with acute pain, or face life-changing complications from the procedure. By 2018, the use of surgical mesh, excuse me, was largely suspended in the UK.

In 2020, the Cumberland Review found, that they had caused avoidable harm to tens of thousands of women. So Dr Hughes is with us. She is England's first patient safety commissioner. We also have Kat Sansom, a longstanding advocate for compensation and the founder of Sling the Mesh campaign group. Good morning to both of you. I'm so glad to have you.

Kat, perhaps I could start with you if you wouldn't mind sharing your story with our listeners. Yeah, so it's back in 2015 and I was suffering what turns out to be mild bladder leaks at the time, but I went to my GP, who has put me forward to the local hospital, and I was recommended this particular treatment. I was told of no risks at all. And in fact, I assumed it would be a bit like a contraceptive coil.

That's how easy I thought it would be. I was told I'd be back at my desk within two or three days. So at the time, I was working as a local journalist in the local newspaper, but I also ran my successful photography business doing weddings and children's portraiture. So I felt confident to have a wedding book two weeks after this particular surgery. And I came out in hideous pain. At first I thought, well, that's what you have to expect after an operation. But the pain got increasingly worse to the point where I could barely walk, I could barely sleep.

And within days, I knew I had to find somebody else to cover this wedding for me two weeks later because I knew I wouldn't be able to do it. And I'd known this family really quite well. I'd photographed their children on numerous occasions. And I was a combination of upset and angry that this had happened. So literally within two weeks of my surgery I decided to set up a campaign and within a couple of months

I'd set up to sling the mesh with 20 women I'd connected with online and there's now more than 12,500 members on the Facebook support group from around the world. So that is just over a decade ago and I'll find out exactly whether you feel you've made progress but I do want to bring Dr. Henrietta Hughes in here.

You saw a deadline, a timetable for action by the government. Your report was published two years ago. Where are you? So I was asked to do this report by the Department of Health and it wasn't a question of whether redress or compensation should be given. It was about how it should be given. And so I provided advice to ministers and then published the report, the Hughes report, in February of 2024. And because of the very detailed information I was given by patients like Kath and others, who shared really sensitive personal information with me and my team, I really could see that the situation that people were facing was in crisis. People had lost their jobs, they'd lost their relationships, they'd lost

their homes in some cases. And so the financial crisis that people were suffering required urgent action. And that's why I set out an interim scheme to make quick interim payments to relieve some of that financial pressure. And I put a deadline of 2025. But I still haven't received a response from the government to my report two years after it was published. And I really would like a much more speedy action taken by the government to really listen to those tens of thousands of patients who've been harmed by pelvic mesh and also valperate, a medicine used for epilepsy. And that with the valperator was given during pregnancy and the babies were affected for women that had used it. You talk about tens of thousands. Do we have an exact number of how many would

be due compensation in your eyes? It's estimated that up to 10,000 women were harmed through the use of pelvic mesh and that around 20,000 children were exposed to valperate during pregnancy. You outlined in your report two stages of compensation. Can you tell me why that is? The record of who had mesh and who was harmed by mesh are so scanty that we don't actually have a detailed list of all of those who've been affected. So the purpose of the interim scheme was to help identify women who had been harmed through the use of pelvic mesh. And then my recommendation was for a second stage of the scheme by working with those who'd been harmed

to understand exactly the issues that they were facing and then to be able to match the level of compensation to the level of harm that had been carried out through that intervention. And with that interim payment, that first payment, £25,000, if I've understood correctly, let me turn to you, Kath. I mean, what difference would that make?

It would make a huge difference. In the first instance, it would be validation of their experience, of their suffering, of what they've been through. We all trusted our doctors because that's what you do. We were told it was gold standard, minimally invasive, low risk. So it would validate their voices. But in a lot of cases, financially, these women have been so impacted. So many in our group have either had to give up work, reduce their hours. Marriages have broken down because of the stress.

People have had to remortgage their homes to try and pay for private mesh removal treatment because they can't wait any longer on these long NHS waiting lists. And of course, the mental health impact is absolutely huge. And I think it feels very cruel that they've been harmed by something that they trusted would help. And then they're being ignored and the government aren't stepping in to give them the compensation. They deserve. Dr. Henrietta, I mean, you say that you haven't had the response from the government and that you want to go to Downing Street directly about this.

What's your plan? Well, when the two years after I'd given the confidential ministerial advice came up, and I still hadn't had a response, I used the powers under the Act that my role was formed by for the very first time to request more detailed information about when ministers had received briefings and what meetings had happened. And that came back a month later, and I was very pleased to receive that, because it gave a lot more information about which other government departments, including number 10,

had received briefings on this. I very much welcome the support from the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care and the minister involved to really be doing everything they can to provide non-financial address. That includes, as Kath mentioned, mesh removal, but also in terms of other systems that are being put in place. But when it comes to the financial side of this, I do believe, that we need to make sure that all the government departments who have a part to play are able to really step up to the plate here. And that's where, you know, I will then pursue this to whichever government departments, I believe, including number 10, may be helping

to be able to understand what information is missing to be able to respond to my report. And I stand here ready to help with that. And we did contact number 10. They pointed us to the Department of Health. The statement is, we recognise the significant impact. that sodium, balperate and pelvic mesh have had on people and their families. It's a complex issue and our priority is to ensure any response is fair, balance and sensitive to those affected. We are carefully considering the recommendations within the Hughes report in collaboration with the relevant departments, and we aim to provide an update in due course. Kath, when you hear that?

It's a double-edged sword. Half of you feels confident that something is actually going to happen. I mean, West Streeting last week says he wants to be the health sense. secretary that actually delivers on the Hughes report. And half of the page were delighted and the other half were very cynical saying, this is just word candy, is anything actually going to happen? And, you know, I must impress on the government. These women need financial support. They've had their lives irreversibly harmed through no fault of their own. And the financial hit that everyone is taking, including myself, is huge. And it feels very cruel to keep these women hanging on

waiting for a response. Were you able to guess a date with number 10? Dr. Henrietta? No, I am yet to contact them, but I also welcome the announcement that the Secretary of State made. I think this is something which is really important that, as Kath said, these are people, women and children who, through no fault of their own, have been harmed through these interventions. And, you know, in terms of all of the things that we want to do to keep people safe, I do feel that that is the first responsibility of Congress. government. And that is why I will be following this up. It does feel very much like unfinished business. Kath, if you could speak to the ministers or indeed to number 10, what would you say? Deliver on the Hughes report. And again, I can't impress enough how this scandal happened

because we trusted our doctors. The regulators fell asleep at the wheel. And we trusted the scientific literature that actually had deep flaws in it. So we must not let a scandal like this happen again. We've got to be more curious about the scientific literature supporting new healthcare treatments and don't keep these women waiting. How are you doing now, Kath? Well, I'm not too bad. I was so lucky I managed to get a mesh removal seven months after insertion back in 2015. So I feel extremely grateful that I've had one of the best recoveries of the women within the group. And even my health is still impacted. And that's why I fight so hard on behalf of those who haven't been so lovely. Kat Sonsam is a campaigner and founder of Sling the Mesh. Thank you so much for speaking to

us and Dr. Henrietta Hughes, Patient Safety Commissioner, and also author of that report that was published two years ago, who is calling for action. Thanks to both of you. I want to read some more of your messages that have been coming in. Hearing Bell talk about her sudden marriage breakdown echoes my own more recent experience. Before Christmas, my husband of 30 years seemingly altered his personality and switched one evening from a kind, empathetic person to the opposite. He went to stay away for 12 days over Christmas a new year and sent me a toxic video and came back without his wedding ring. There was no other woman, no real explanation for his hatred and resentment. We have couples therapy, but it's not making a difference. He is planning to move

out. I'm still blindsided and only survive with the help of female friends. We never know anyone is all that I can say. Thank you for your messages today. Tomorrow, Anita is joined by the creators of a brand new opera exploring the divine feminine, its relevance in the modern world and the enduring archetype of goddess across different cultures. It's been commissioned by Radio 3 to celebrate International Women's Day. So a taster, an exclusive taster for you tomorrow with Anita. Enjoy. That's all for today's Women's Hour. Join us again next time. Parenting a young child today means navigating a whirlwind of advice, opinions and relentless information. Tell me about it, Katie, but the good news is CBB's parenting download is here to take the edge off.

Join me, Katie Thistleton, Radio One presenter and new mum. And me, Governor B, Mobo Award winning rapper and dad of two, as we discover and unpack what it really means to be a parent. From the art of negotiation to tips on dealing with parental anxiety. Each episode, we're joined by well-known parents and trusted professionals to share their own experiences. People say you never know until you have your own, but no one ever really gets into what that means. And it's very true. Someone, when I was on my first walk with him alone in the pram, someone went, Professor Green, I went, yeah, he went, congratulations, went, cheers. And he went, welcome to the truth club.

I went, what do you mean? You'll find out soon enough. And to provide useful tools and advice to tackle the daily challenges that come with parenting, offering honest conversations and expert insight that can really help. The biggest thing that I've noticed since I became a negotiator is we don't listen. We're really good at pretending we listen and we do this, don't we? So our young people in our life especially are talking away. You've asked them a question. They're answering the question and you're like this.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because you're not really interested because you're already thinking about what's next. We've learned so much already. So whether you're a first-time parent, you've got multiple kids, you're a carer, or a grandparent, this podcast is for you. Search for CBB's Parents in Download with me, Katie Thistleton. And me, Governor B, listen now on BBC Sounds.

For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story.

Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth, available now wherever you get your podcasts.