Woman's Hour - Beth Moran on fostering, Theo Bleak, Dating someone a similar age to your children

Episode Date: December 31, 2024

What’s it like fostering in your 40s? Author Beth Moran had three children in her twenties but decided to take up fostering once they flew the nest. Her new novel It Had To Be You is inspired by her experiences of fostering thirteen children in five years.Singer-songwriter Theo Bleak has received huge acclaim recently for her raw lyrics and soaring melodies. As well as supporting Suede, Noel Gallagher’s High Flying Birds and Joesef on tour, her debut LP Pain was also nominated for Scottish Album of the Year. Theo performs her latest single You Said You’d Feel It All Again live in the Woman’s Hour studio.The director Sam Taylor-Johnson was 42 when she met husband to be Aaron Taylor-Johnson, who was 18 at the time. They recently made a red carpet appearance with her two eldest daughters and the hashtag #SameAgeAsStepDaughter became a TikTok trend. Clare McDonnell is joined by Alexandra who was her husband’s third wife and at 30 had stepdaughters of 26 and 20 from his first two marriages. She joins Clare McDonnell, along with parenting expert and family psychologist Anna Mathur.Presenter: Clare McDonnell Producer: Laura Northedge

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Claire Macdonald and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour and a very happy New Year's Eve to you all. Now, if your grown-up children have finally flown the nest, can you even imagine going back to the beginning and starting all over again? Well, that is precisely what author Beth Moran did. Beth had three children in her 20s and decided to take up fostering once they'd left home. She's now written a book about her experiences and she'll join me in the Woman's Hour studio.

Live music too this morning from Theo Bleak, who's been receiving huge acclaim recently for her raw lyrics and haunting melodies, not least receiving a nomination for Scottish Album of the Year. And I'm interested to hear Theo's take on female artists outperforming men again in the UK music charts in 2024. Six of the top 10 albums were by women, Chapel Roan, Sabrina Carpenter, Billie Eilish and Olivia Rodrigo. So what is it about these women that is driving sales? It is it rather as much about what they're saying, their perspective, their attitude as the music itself. We'll take a look at that one. Plus, following on from our conversation on yesterday's programme about how to parent your children once they are fully fledged adults, what happens when

you're the step-parent and the same age or maybe even younger than your step-kids? Get in touch today if you found yourself in a similar situation, either as a step-parent a child what are the difficulties but also what about the upsides being closer in age can surely bring an awful lot of benefits too love to hear your perspective you can text the program the number is 84844 text will be charged at your standard message rate we're on social media at bbc woman's hour or you can send a WhatsApp message or voice note using the number 03700 100 444. But we start this morning with this. No ovaries, no care.

That is the conclusion from a survey by Menopause Support, a not-for-profit organisation who say women are thrust into surgical menopause without receiving the information or medical care that they need. Surgical menopause occurs when a woman's ovaries are surgically removed before she experiences a natural menopause. Well, Diane Danzebrink is founder of Menopause Support, who's calling for an urgent review of surgical menopause care across the NHS. Delighted to say Diane joins us now. Good morning. Good morning. So let's get into more detail around surgical menopause. When we hear that phrase what do we mean exactly? Exactly as you just said it's

where both of the ovaries are removed at the same time. And clinically, that's called a bilateral oophorectomy. And that puts somebody into an immediate menopause. So different from what you might hear described as a natural or spontaneous menopause, which is where somebody experiences perimenopause, probably in their early 40ss probably perimenopausal for several years until the time of menopause which for many is around 51 52 so during that time hormone levels fluctuate and ultimately deplete but when you go into a surgical menopause the vast majority, particularly of your oestrogen and progesterone, disappears very quickly. So you kind of fall off a cliff edge. That's how many people describe it and certainly how I described it myself when it happened to me.

Yes. So you've been through this yourself? I have. Back in 2012, I had to have both of my ovaries removed in a total hysterectomy. And unfortunately for me, I was not given the right information prior to my surgery, nor the right support afterwards. And unfortunately for me, that led me to a point where I came very close to taking my life. And my experience is essentially what has driven me to set up Menopause Support, the Make Menopause Matter campaign, and to campaign for the last decade to improve menopause care for everybody.

Talk to us then about your research. That was your starting point, your very personal experience. Who did you talk to? What did you find out? So over the last 10 years, I've spoken to thousands of women. But what we wanted to do very recently was to look at what the situation was like, you know, sort of 10, 12 years after my experience. So we just did an online survey. So this was a survey that was put out on our website via things like Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc. So we had 521 respondents. Just over 74% of those told us that they were not made fully aware of the potential effects of having both of their

ovaries removed prior to their surgery. 62% told us that hormone replacement therapy, which where appropriate, is the first line treatment. Around 40% told us they had no follow up with the gynecologist or any member of their team after their surgery. Around 83% said that they felt that their GP was not knowledgeable enough about surgical menopause to help them. 47% told us that they'd felt they had no other choice but to seek private care, spending between £510,000. Goodness. So what would have helped then? What would have helped in your situation? What should be there that isn't there? So what would have helped in my situation and what would help everybody, and I mean patients and clinicians and ultimately the NHS, is that there is a comprehensive

review of surgical menopause care and support. So ultimately, anybody who is going to have their ovaries removed should be fully counseled for whatever reason they're having their ovaries removed. They should be fully counseled about the impact of having their ovaries removed. They should be fully counseled about the impact of having their ovaries removed. They should also be fully counseled about what the treatment options for them are. And then there should be follow-up for them. And that follow-up for some, if they're people who are in perhaps their 20s or 30s, that follow up potentially should go on for some time. We really need for there to be a review across the NHS to ensure that those who say that they're receiving good care are not isolated cases. We need everybody to have a good standard of care and support. What kind of medication? I

mean, is HRT even applicable once you've had a surgical menopause? You said you fell off a cliff personally. Because what? Because your hormones just were all over the place? Yeah, because for me, I was never advised about HRT either prior to or post my surgery. It took for me to get to crisis point when I was very fortunate to see a GP who absolutely understood what had happened to me and prescribed HRT for me there and then. So HRT is the first line treatment for the majority. There will be those where because of their own personal medical history, HRT might not be first line, but for the vast majority it is. So to hear that 62% had no discussion about potential first line treatment prior to surgery. Because if you don't get a follow-up with the gynecologist or a member of their team, and you don't think that you need to go and see a GP, or perhaps you go and see your GP, but your GP is not familiar with surgical menopause,

or you're not referred to a menopause specialist, which if you're referred on the NHS, you know, we spoke to people during the survey who were saying they'd waited 16, 17, 18 months for an NHS appointment with a menopause specialist, consequently leading to so many people feeling they have no choice but to pay for private care. And of course, we have to remember that there are vast swathes of the population who could never entertain the idea of private care and nor should they have to. So what you're saying is there's a massive sort of gap. Do you think it's because many doctors feel that in the case of ovary removal or even a full hysterectomy, well, that's it, you're done and dusted. You're not going to have any symptoms of menopause after that. I think, unfortunately, we're in a situation where for some gynecologists, they take an interest in

menopause and they recognise the relevance, but not all gynaecologists take an interest in menopause. And so consequently, this is where this falls down. And this is why we need this review. And we need this comprehensive guidance, both for patients, but also for clinicians. We have approached NHS England for a response and Dr Suman, NHS National Clinical Director for Women's Health said this. We've seen a sharp rise in menopause awareness in recent years, but we know there is more work to do.

So we are rolling out women's health hubs to provide extra care within communities, as well as tools to help women to manage their symptoms access should be equal for all women and every gp should be following clinical guidance on menopause and ensuring that when a woman presents with symptoms a conversation about menopause happens first time round i mean presumably you welcome that but are you worried it's that's a good intention? But how do we know it's going to happen?

I mean, I agree with everything that Sue has said. But unfortunately, we've been saying these things for more than a decade now. And unfortunately, what we get is more meetings about meetings and more reports. And we don't need any more of those. We need action. And just to go back to those health hubs, those health hubs have been funded in a one-off way, a limited amount of money in ring fenced. So there still isn't a commitment to those health hubs continuing on.

And we need a definite commitment from this government to prioritise not just menopause, but women's health care once and for all. Thank you so much for joining us. Diane Danza Brink from menopause support.co.uk. Be interested to hear your views on this one. 84844 is the text number. And also just to say, if you have been affected by anything you've heard in the last few moments, there are links to places that you can find help and support to on the BBC Action Line website. So go there. There are many, many useful links. Now, author Beth Moran had three children in her 20s, but decided to take up fostering once they flew the nest. Her new book, It Had To Be You, is inspired by her experiences of fostering 13 children in five years. She's also

a successful author. She's written 12 books which have sold over 1 million copies globally and have been translated into 10 languages. And she used the money from the books to fund a loft conversion so she and her husband could foster more children. Delighted to say Beth joins me in the studio now. Welcome Beth. Good morning, thank you for having me. What a story, many people listening to this and it's interesting we had a conversation about parenting adult children on the programme yesterday. Your children, you had them quite young didn't you? Your biological children. How old were you? Yes, I was 21 when I had my first, when I had my daughter and 26 when I had my youngest. Right. So they grew up. Yes. They left home. So what made you think, I want to go back to the beginning. I want to do the parenting thing all over again. We still had one at home when we

thought about fostering, but we had two who were in education elsewhere. So which meant we had a spare bedroom and we still felt quite young. I was 44 when my youngest turned 18. And we just felt like we had a lot more to give. My husband had run a youth group for 10 years with a lot of vulnerable children there. And although that was very hard work on a Friday night dealing with a lot of issues going on with 40 teenagers. We used to come home and just think, we could maybe help some of these children. We wouldn't be perfect, but we could maybe be better than what they had. He was already helping them, though, wasn't he?

So that's a big step, isn't it, to go from a youth club to having them in your home and looking after them on a day-to-day basis. Where did you feel there was a gap in the care that they weren't getting? Well, the fact they used to turn up an hour early and stand outside in the cold because we wouldn't let them in because they would rather be there than at home was a huge thing. And we just, we knew we'd got space. We felt really proud of our children and how they were doing

and felt like we've got more to give. We were so blessed that our children were doing well. We wanted to offer that opportunity to somebody else. So take us back to the first time and your first experience of fostering. What was it like? Oh, it was in our first one was interesting because it was a really challenging situation. To be honest, it was an emergency placement. You just get a call. You get minimum details.

They might arrive an hour or two later. So it's really quite nerve wracking, actually. And that was that was a short term, just 10 days for that young woman before she moved on somewhere else, which had been the plan all along for her. And is that very different? You start off there, and that's quite an acute situation to start off in isn't it yeah what happened after that um so we for the first few years we had a few more medium or short-term teenagers coming to stay with us some of them it was because their parents had asked for them to be taken into care they were struggling to cope relationship breakdown and it was lovely that in those instances we were able to help repair that family so the children could move back. That was lovely. Others moved on to other family members or elsewhere. And that really suited us actually because they'd come for a few months or a year.

Then we'd get a holiday. We'd have our empty nester time, which we did really enjoy. Some calm and peace and a chance to rest before we started again. But then that did change. Right. It did change change didn't it because um you had to make your home bigger yeah tell us about that well we were we were we were enjoying it and we felt like this is such worthwhile work we really love it we feel like we're doing quite a good job and um we really sat down and thought is this something that we want to do more because we'd only ever had one child at a time and we knew that particularly for siblings to keep brothers and sisters together when they're going through

such a difficult situation is a lot to be able to do that but we didn't have space my husband had a very busy job as a senior manager for an energy company and we didn't have time for more than one child so we really sat down and thought do we give our all to this we actually we're Christians we actually sat down and prayed and said, if we get the money, we will go for this. And that was the month that my books really started to sell. Goodness me. Yeah, yeah. And I had a number one book on Kindle that autumn.

So we were already gearing up to have more. We then got a phone call from social services saying we've had four children, brothers and sisters, who've been at the police station all day. There's nowhere for them to go. Could you have one or two? And we just felt like, we said, at the time, we didn't even have four bedrooms. We didn't even have four beds. But we said, look, we've got camp beds. If they've literally got nowhere else to go tonight, we would love to keep these children together and they all came again an hour later lots of running around making up beds and getting things sorted um and we it was love at first sight we just absolutely loved these children we had four days with them for really wonderful days before because we didn't have all

the bedrooms and various things they moved them them on, they split them up. So my husband went and talked to his boss and said, I'm going part-time. We booked a loft conversion and as soon as we could, a couple of months later, the older two had been moved into a residential unit, like a children's home. So we knew it would be very easy for them to move back if they wanted.

They were 14 and 16. So we went and sort of kept nagging social services. Normally foster carers don't ask for teenagers to come back. But we kept saying we love these children. We would really, really love to have them back. And so eventually they did. And a week later they moved in and they're part of our family now. Did you have all four? We didn't have all four because the younger two had moved on to foster carers locally.

So they were settled there. So they stayed. We would have loved to have had all four but they're happy and settled where they were with a different foster carer so it was thought it was best to let them you know not disrupt them again to have to come back to us but what we have been able to do is keep weekly contact so they have maintained that brother sister relationship which is lovely that is an incredible commitment i mean your book was doing well your books books were doing well, you've got money, so you can afford the loft conversion. And then you bring these children

back into your family. What was their response to that? Honestly, I think, particularly for the oldest one, he would say it saved his life. It was everything. I guess there's varying quality in residential units,

but the one they were at wasn't the loveliest place. You know, you don't have, you're not part of a family. You're people who are just paid to come in and do shifts. The turnover of staff is very high. You're with other random children. They've got rules in place that aren't specific to you, but they just knew that the fact that we'd asked for them back,

that meant more than anything for them to be honest and we have just it's just worked absolutely brilliantly. How has it affected your family dynamic with your grown-up children? Yeah a lot it's a big thing because I think even when you're in your 20s and you've moved away you still having your mum and dad is a big thing isn't it and it has affected at times both me and my husband being able to help. We've had to be really clear about things like graduations or that we actually need some support so we can both do things like that. It has been something for them to adjust to. But obviously they know these children's stories. You know, they now see them as their brother and sister and have grown to love them as they get to know them and come home. It has changed things, but it's something we're really aware of

and working hard to make sure our adult children still have as much of us as they can, which is partly why my husband gave up his job, so we'd have more time for that. Do they ever tell you that they feel displaced? I don't think so. We've got bedrooms for them now. But not physically as well, but emotionally as well. Well, it's little things like,

if I talk to one of my adult children on the phone, I won't talk about the foster kids until they've told us and talked through all about them. It's about them. I'm their mum. I'm calling them to see how they are. Little things like that. Yeah, that's quite a big thing, though, isn't it? That's prioritising whoever you're with at the time, which is kind of what we were talking about yesterday, about the tricky waters of parenting. You have written

a book inspired by fostering it had to be you yes it's a great read um and there's so much detail in it i when i was reading it i was thinking this is so useful it's a great story but it's also a great understanding of getting under the skin of the complicated lives of those children that come into your life and then even with all the skill in the complicated lives of those children that come into your life and then even with all the skill in the world I mean there must still be areas where you think wow I wasn't expecting that so why did you decide to write it? I mean I touched on things like fostering even before I'd actually become a foster carer and it was quite a relief to read those books and think I hadn't completely got it wrong I I just felt like it was time. And I had an idea that had come to me about this,

about a young woman, a teenage girl, and a foster lad in her house and what could happen there and then meeting up later on. So it wasn't meant to inform anybody. It's just my heart and my passion. And that's what we pour into our work, isn't it, into our creativity. I did have to do some editing because at times it was a bit too much information.

Well, you're the expert and it must be very, very difficult not to kind of, you know, make it a kind of how to book. And sometimes it does feel like that, but in a really fascinating way. The book tells the story of Libby, whose parents foster children. Why did you approach the story from the perspective of the child in the family? Because I wanted to have to revisit it, you know, 10 years, 13 years later, it's in the book later on and to see what's happened to them, what's happened to this young man that they'd fostered. That was that was really why I did it that way. And it was interesting for me to think about that. Because again, I've just seen that in terms of my children rather than myself. And have they read the book? My daughter has. And what's her feedback?

What's her feedback? She doesn't give me feedback. Very wise, very wise. I mean and you are in this system and you jumped in because you could see these children needed help. And we know that the care system is under a lot of strain at the moment. What needs to change? What needs to change? We need more foster carers at the end of the day. It is heartbreaking how many, you know, children as young as five now are being placed in residential units. They're asking, who do I call mum and dad out of this staff looking after them?

I also find really hard is the fact that at the other end of the system, you know, we've always done teenagers and having adult children myself and seeing how much they value still having that input. Someone to drive them to uni, help them move house, that phone call. Can I eat this mince that's been in the fridge for three days? All that stuff. And these kids kind of are pumped out the other end of the system. 30% of care experienced young people will end up homeless within two years. They're more likely to end up in prison than get a degree at the moment. And what we really need is people who are committed longer term to see it through and actually be there for them afterwards, I think, I feel. And so you are part of my family now. This isn't my job. longer term to see it through and actually be there for them afterwards i think i feel and so

you are part of my family now this isn't my job this is our life now and it is disruptive and it is sad at times and it is challenging you know the situations we've encountered where we have we have no idea what we're doing but there's a lot of support and training available it would be great if there was more we all know social care is on its knees we need more social workers well I was going to bring that point up because from your experience as you say you've had tricky times yeah and it's not so straightforward for any foster family really not enough support from social services when things get tough and lots of people listening to this might think I'd love to do that but is there going to be support for me because

I'm a novice yeah we have found the training I wish every parent could do I thought if I'd have done this 20 years ago my children would have benefited for sure um and certainly we have found in Nottinghamshire the support we've had from our supervising social workers has been fantastic we've never felt alone and that makes all the difference I think the children social workers it's harder they're just so overworked and you know children are seeing them four times a year sometimes it's not often and just with the bureaucracy with the managers with all of that everything takes forever and the children learn to be disappointed to be honest again and again and again well that's a terrible lesson to learn so early in life isn't it so anyone listening to now, what would you say to them? We need more foster carers.

Here's your rallying call. What is it? What I felt like when I started, if this had been my nieces or my nephew or my best friend's children, I would have made it work. I would have made a sacrifice and gone out of my way to make sure these children could be in a loving home. If it was my children who needed it. And these children need it just as much and what you get from them what we have received from these kids has been as much as we've been able to give them for sure it's changed our lives and we know we we have changed lives in a way that really

matters if you think if you've got a spare bedroom you've got a bit of time have a think about it thank you so much for coming in Beth thank you good you. Good to chat to you. And best of luck with the new book, It Had To Be You, is out now. Author Beth Moran. Thank you so much for joining me in the Woman's Hour studio. And also, if you'd like to comment on that, you can. The text number 84844. Thank you to everybody who's been in touch already. We're going to be getting into a few of your texts shortly.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. But I mentioned this at the start of the programme.

Women have had a record-breaking year on the British charts. That's according to new figures from the British Phonographic Institute. The success of albums by female artists helped arrest a two-decade-long decline in sales of physical music. Female pop artists topped the singles charts for an unprecedented 34 weeks, the highest ever figure. 21 of those weeks belonged to Sabrina Carpenter, whose hit singles Espresso, Taste and Please, Please, Please

dominated the second half of the year. We're joined now by music journalist Sophie Williams. Sophie, welcome. Good morning, how are you? I'm very well. These women, they're so much more than just musicians and entertainers. Why have they been so successful, would you say? Yeah, it's been an incredible year for pop music, like you say, particularly for women.

And I think so much of it speaks to people wanting more diversity and more different perspectives in pop music. I think lyrical content remains so important and it's what really can make a casual listener into a music fan. And so many of these successful female artists, their whole unique selling point is the stories that they share in their music. And it's why it's resonated so broadly, I think. Yeah, let's talk about Chapel Roan then, from the Midwest, brought up in a very kind of strict religious background. She's gay herself. She suppressed that for years. And now she's come on the scene with an absolute blast. And she's sort of known

for taking on problematic men like photographers, when, you know, they've been a little, they've overstepped lines with her. She has got a voice and she's using it. Is that the kind of thing you're talking about? Yes, absolutely. And I think Chapel in particular has got a voice and she's using it. Is that the kind of thing you're talking about? Yes, absolutely. And I think Chapel in particular has got a remarkable story. You know, like you say, she's really outspoken, but she's been in the music industry for nearly a decade. She was dropped from my record label previously. And this record that she's had such success with this year actually came out in 2023. So it's been a real slow burn sort of success. We've seen a lot of young fans really drawn to the messages that she has to share they're looking for maybe you know more joyful

expressive less self-censored music and I think that's what she offers and she's just remarkable in how she sets those boundaries for herself and offers a really refreshing viewpoint on what pop stardom can look like I think yeah I, she came on stage at the Manchester Academy earlier this year. Fans queuing from 9am and she came on and said to the audience, this is a place where you belong, no matter what. And I guess that has extra resonance for someone who's felt like an outsider her entire life. Yes, absolutely. I mean, I saw her play Brixton Academy in September, and I was sat in the upper bowl of seats. And it felt like those rows of seats were quite practically shaken. And there was such excitement in there, so much energy. And I hadn't experienced that at Brixton Academy in

the past. But I think for a lot of young fans in particular, you know, that they really missed out on so many formative experiences with live music during lockdown and many of them are now old enough to go out to gigs and someone like chapel this amazing unique personality comes along and they really want to give their all at those shows and experience that so yeah she has a fantastic message and it's been amazing to see her be so successful in 2024 yeah and we look at british artist charlie xex and of course she I mean went to next level didn't she when um uh she was her you know her brat imagery and music uh was uh adopted in the American election uh campaign by Kamala Harris that really pushed her up a level but does it does it make a difference do you think you have a female running for president um championing uh female. I think it got a lot more young people engaged

with the election, particularly in the US. You know, we saw a surgence of people searching for campaigns on TikTok. Charlie's incredibly smart with her marketing. She's been in the industry for 10 years now. So this amazing underdog story of someone finally having their mainstream moment. But Charlie talked about how, you know, she set out the marketing for Brat before the music even came along. She shared a manifesto online of what this imagery was going to look like, what the feeling of the album was going to be. And I can't remember in the past sort of decades

seeing another artist do something like that. It was really unique and a really remarkable way to approach music and clearly has paid off. Yeah, and that's a young woman being very much in control because normally that would be handed over to somebody else to kind of deal with all of that at a record company. I mean, that's pretty unique, isn't it? Wouldn't you say? Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, she's finally playing arenas for the first time in her career. You know, she's got six albums under her belt and this is the one that's finally broken through and it also happens to be her most vulnerable and personal album which goes back to what I was saying earlier I think the lyrical

content from these artists remains paramount above all else I think people really connected with Charlie's message this year and people who maybe weren't aware of her before were so drawn to these really sort of nakedly honest stories that she had to share on the record and then pair that with an incredible marketing campaign and you've got a juggernaut success. Yeah I mean and physical sales this is where fans and it's not cheap I have teenagers I know how much all of this costs but the investment that record companies are putting into you know LPs and cassettes is. And it seems that the fans of these female artists are the ones that are prepared to pay for them. Why do you think that is? Yeah, absolutely.

I think Taylor Swift definitely set an incredible precedent for this when she released her Midnight's album in 2022. With that record, there came so many different variants of the vinyl. So they were very collectible. And I think for like you say young fans their whole world is sort of in their phone a lot of them haven't had the formative experience of going to a music shop and buying out and buying an album and I think they want to hold something tangible really show their devotion in the form of a physical item regardless of the price and I think we've seen people like Sabrina replicate that this year you know make really

interesting unique merchandise items and pair it with a CD. So she's getting an album sale each time she sells a T-shirt, something like that. So a lot of it is really smart marketing. But also I do really see and understand how these young fans want to express their music fandom through buying physical products. And these happen to be the most popular artists on the planet at the moment. So, yeah. It's another sign of your devotion, isn't it? Just by the LP and the t-shirt and the cassette. So they're the female juggernauts. Where are the men?

Yes, it's been an interesting year. Like you say, it's been predominantly female artists dominating. But this is a trend that I think has been going on for about two or three years now. BPI reported similar stats last year saying that females were starting to overtake the male artists you know Ray had a huge night at the Brits this year in February by winning six awards and I think there's also just a simple fact that there's not many male pop stars in market at the moment you know Ed Sheeran is focusing on his family life Harry Styles is currently not. Lewis Capaldi's taking a break. And these female artists,

going back to what I was saying earlier, they just offer completely new, relatable stories in their music. They're all very distinct. They're not overlapping with the sounds. You can see them as different characters and different personalities. And I think maybe in the past decade,

we were seeing a lot of artists trying to replicate achieving success. A lot of the similar stories coming out from maybe the male counterparts. So that's why I think so many people are drawn to these new, exciting female talent. It's completely different to what we were seeing dominate the pop market, say, five years ago. They're very distinct, aren't they? Yeah, well, of course, Dua Lipa headlined the Pyramid Stage at Glastonbury, of course. And just finally, when you hear, you know, Ray, for example, what a year she's had. She cleaned up at the Brit Awards.

Again, it's a story of a woman who, you know, got that success on her own terms. And I guess we cannot underestimate how that resonates with her fan base. Yeah, definitely. And I think it's a really exciting example for other artists to sort of be fearless in the pursuit of what they want in their success. Like she gave up everything to go independent and it paid off. And I hope it will encourage newer artists coming through

to take those bold risks in the future. I'd like to see a lot more female artists headlining festivals in the UK in the next few years. I think that's somewhere we still need to make progress there. But it's just been a banner year for pop music, a banner year for female artists. And I'm really, really excited to see what happens next. Sophie, good to have you on the programme. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much for having me. Music journalist Sophie Williams. And I'm going to take a few of those themes into my next interview with my next guest. I'm going to

play you some live music shortly. And who more appropriate in the bleak midwinter than singer-songwriter Theo Bleak, as well as supporting artists like Suede and Noel Gallagher. Theo has been receiving huge acclaim recently for her raw lyrics and haunting melodies, not least receiving a nomination for Scottish Album of the Year. Theo, welcome. Thank you for having me for an intro. Well, it was great to have you.

You're going to be performing for us in just a few moments. But just a little comment from you on the year for female artists, six out of the top ten positions in top album sales. That is great. Do you look at something like that, though, and think, how does that relate to me? Or are you just happy to celebrate female artists, that is great do you look at something like that though and think how does that relate to me or do you are you just happy to celebrate female artists you know whatever the music however they get there

I'm always happy to celebrate female artists no matter how they get there and I think it's just set such a tone for that there's actually no set way of of having a career a fruitful career and a meaningful one and I think it's inspiring to see the pop world kind of do that so alternative folk all the rest can follow suit. Yeah and just to hear about Charlie XCX coming up with the idea for Brat and knowing that for years in advance

it's a shift of power isn't it? It's definitely a shift of power and it's having a really strong vision which is something I have and it feels inspiring that you can get there yourself. Yeah well you're here and you're in the Woman's Hour studio so you're getting there. Theo Bleak isn't actually your real name is it? Not my government name. Not your government name okay what is your real name and where did where were you inspired to take this name from so my real name is katie lynch um and when i was starting the project it was actually i really liked the name theo and i liked the idea of a kind of character um and it was i think it was me and my dad were discussing

it and it was like theo bleak kind of bleak i'm i'm a goth at heart so it just fits so it was good and did it also reflect the kind of music that you set out to make? I think so. Yeah, I think even when I try to do things that are a bit more upbeat, it always has a sort of morose undertone. We're here for that. We absolutely are. You turned down a medical degree to pursue music. Was that your calling? Did you think, you know, I won't have have a fallback it's just what I've got to do well so I didn't turn down a medical degree so to speak that was my plan was to next go into into medicine maybe to do psychiatry but I was kind of at this point where it was you know music or or that I think you kind of had to be fooling if you were doing medicine one or the other yeah very much and I just wasn't really ready to do that and I still really wanted

to explore my art history and um yeah well we're we're fine so far and you are from Dundee and based in Dundee and is there any pressure or you know do people say to you you know you you really need to sort of go to London or go go somewhere south ofundee, you rolled your eyes there. Yes. You must hear that a lot. I definitely, more from people here though, that it's always like, you need to move here. But I've kind of set up my whole musical world up in Scotland and I can travel places and I think that my environment

has a lot to do with my music. So I'd be hesitant to uproot too much, unless I was given a big huge house to live in and you know Kensington or something I'd be like that's that's fine. You never know who's listening. What is it about Dundee then? What is it about that place in the world that inspires your music? I guess it's just always been home it's probably what I know best but it's also near I'm a big walker so it's good to be near the hills

and all my kind of routes and you just can feel so isolated so quickly 10 minutes from your front door and I just love it and again because it's not Glasgow, Edinburgh it's not the centre of Scotland it's got a bit of a different vibe which I love

Well listen, let's hear some of that vibe now in your music. I'll let you get up and wander across to the microphone and the guitar that's set up just a little way back there. Is this, well, we're going to talk about your debut EP, Fragments, in a moment. You know, you write about in your music vulnerability mental health insecurity you talk have also talked in the past about um your eating disorder and we were talking earlier about women in music now really powerful huge platforms to kind of get that message across that they are

putting it all out there and saying you know i'm I'm a human being like you. Why is it important for you to put that in your music? I think it's just for me about authenticity and I just, I'm a very flawed person and I think that what I relate to in art is always people who are just very real and very flawed and I just don't want to pretend I'm something I'm not. Obviously, sometimes I will for the bit, but yeah, I just, I look for that in other people's art. So it feels right to do that myself.

Well, I absolutely loved walking into work on the dark streets of London this morning with your music in my ears. It's absolutely phenomenal. What can we hear from you next? What should we be looking out for, Theo? A lot of new music next year. I have an EP in the works at the moment, sort of late winter, early spring, hopefully all going to plan and a lot of a lot of new music next year. I have an EP in the works at the moment sort of late winter, early spring hopefully all going to plan and a lot of touring and a lot of just yeah a lot of nonsense a lot of shenanigans. Excellent.

And new year? Yes. Where will you be? In Dundee. Is it a big night? A few pints might occur. It's a big one. Listen great to meet you. thank you so much for bringing your music to the woman's hour audience absolutely fantastic theo bleaker you heard you said you'd feel it all again it's available now go and check her out on a multitude of streaming platforms

lovely to see you today and a happy new year to you too thank you now let's move on uh to talk about this uh we spoke on the programme yesterday about how to parent your children once they are fully fledged adults. And today, we're looking at a different family shape when you're the adult step parent in the same age bracket, or maybe even younger than your step kids. Same age as stepdaughter is a hashtag that trends regularly when celebrities walk the red carpet. It's actually a TikTok trend right now. But is this something you have experienced? And if so, what are the benefits and challenges that you've found? Alexandra got in touch with us. She became her husband's third wife at 30 and inherited two stepdaughters aged 26 and 20 from his first two marriages.

And Alexandra joins me alongside parenting expert and family psychologist, Anna Martha. Welcome both of you. Thank you. Alexandra, let's start with you. How daunting was it going into a relationship with a man with daughters that were so close to you in age? To be honest, I don't really remember being that daunted.

I've grown up in a fairly big family and we were always surrounded by other children. My father ran a boarding school. So lots of people in our lives. Two more didn't really seem a problem and it by looking back I suppose I was very naive but thankfully it didn't put me off. And how did your relationship with those young women begin and how is it now? I suppose with the elder stepdaughter, who was 26, I think, when we got married, that was trickier because she had hoped that after my husband's second wife, she could then have a proper relationship again with her father,

because that had been obviously very tricky with her stepmother. So I suppose I didn't see myself as a replacement mother. And I remember making a conscious decision that I wasn't going to be a stepmother. They just needed like a big sister, stroke, friend. And so that's what I became, albeit not nearly as cool as they were. And that's such a mature decision, though, isn't it?

You were only 30 yourself, so you thought, this is the role I'm going to take that is going to work. Yeah, yeah, and it did work. And, you know, I look at them now, they are the most extraordinary adults and I feel I have their complete support. They have always been, yeah, just an amazing benefit to marrying somebody almost 20 years older than me. Let's bring in Anna Martha now, a parenting expert. Anna, it's a really interesting take that we heard from Alexandra there. Is that what it's important to do, sort of decide how you're going to approach it and what your role will be and maybe to have an open conversation

about it in the early stages? Yeah, absolutely. I think that open conversation is so important. Otherwise, we just go in there with assumptions and all those shoulds about this is how it should look. This is what this relationship should be labelled, when actually no one has to fit neatly into any one category. And those relationships, they can evolve over time as well. And it takes time and patience to form and explore what that might look like. So, yeah, what Alexandra did, she went in and she kind of let them gauge, be the gauge of what tone they wanted to set. And I think that's key really is recognising that that family will have a whole history of generational idiosyncrasies and dynamics. And when you step into that, it takes time to work what what your position is going to be and what you

want for those relationships and acknowledging and respecting that it's it's just yeah it could have the sticky points and difficult conversations but at the end of the day you will hopefully have a common goal of wanting to find a way to fit together and respect and support one another. Alexandra you said the the older daughter had been through a tricky relationship with her stepmother. Was there a feeling that she was then vying for your, I know sadly your husband has passed away now, but your late husband's affections? Did you ever feel envious of him giving attention to his daughters? Never, never.

He loved his daughters very much. And it's really important. You know, I wasn't competing for his love. I felt very secure in our relationship. And I think he had missed the relationship that he was then able to have with his elder stepdaughter. And that was really important. And also, I think embracing both of my stepdaughters into my own family and making them part of that much wider family that they'd never really had

before. To me, that was just normal family life, but they hadn't seen it. So, you know, they suddenly had my siblings as almost sort of half siblings again. And my parents did a lot of perhaps more parenting because they were that much older. So it was it was incredibly beneficial, actually, all around. Were there no sticky points where, I mean, clearly you're talking about two young women still who will make decisions about their lives or behave in a certain way that you might not agree with? What did you do, Alexandra, when those situations arose? Did you become the parent then or were you still the mate? No, there were definitely sticky points. And in fact they were both here for christmas and i asked them that exact you know i've said you know how did you see me and they said alex

we were horrible to you to start with and i suppose it was just teenage young people behavior you know i remember being that ghastly young adult myself so um you know that wasn't it wasn't a deal breaker but I remember having one my younger stepdaughter who lived with us um had had a huge argument with her father and had overstepped the mark. And that's the only time I stepped in. And I said, you can't speak to your father like that. It's I know you're angry. I understand all of that.

But there are boundaries and you do not speak to a parent like that. And it was the only time. And she was incredibly, she was so sweet afterwards. She said, you know, I'm really sorry. I didn't mean to, but he was annoying and I really appreciate you not, you know, hadn't blown up into a huge argument with me, but I had, I had stepped in and that was the, think, probably the only time I actually did. I didn't need to. And Anna, I guess that's because Alexandra's relationship with her stepdaughters was so strong

and it was coming from a place of love, both for her and her late husband, to say, come on, this is somebody we both love. And you have to have that strength, don't you, of the foundations? Yeah, and I think in any relationship you know bringing that up regardless of what what role you have in that family is is fair enough isn't it and I think that the key thing is to approach these conversations with empathy and understanding that these relationships are always going to be multi-layered and it's always going to be it's a big thing to introduce anyone into a new family if even if it's a new a new baby or a new you know a new step-parent regardless of the age and I just thinking I think yes empathy patience and clear

communication and debriefing with one another in those moments after things have been a bit tricky is so important because then you're just approaching it authentically you can reconnect with those core values of just honesty and kindness at the heart of it and yeah just just find a way to make your way through that may well look very different to another family set up. Because, yeah, families, I love the thought that any family with more than one person in it is dysfunctional in some way or another. And as soon as we start chipping away at that fantasy that things should be easy and just loving all the time and kind all the time, we can just work with what is actually going on

in an honest way. Absolutely. Great advice. Lots of people getting in touch. Julia's been in touch. Thank you for your text, Julia. My mother was the same age as my half brother, child of my dad's first marriage. He was an adult when my parents had a baby. So parenting him wasn't a problem. My mum and half brother had a great relationship, but his wife was appalled. She never got over it and treated me appallingly. I think she saw me as living proof of her father-in-law having, well, being pretty awful in his 70s. After my dad died, my brother acted as a guide and best friend to me, which was wonderful, says Julia.

Thank you for that, Julia. What is your advice then? Because it seems like there can be a lot of misunderstanding, a lot of jealousy or feeling of being sidelined. If you are feeling that wherever you are in the relationship, whether you're the step parent or the adult child, what's your advice, Anna? So it's being honest and open. First, see with yourself, because I think sometimes if we feel like I shouldn't be jealous because their relationship with their child's really important and I'm really for that, so I shouldn't feel this way. And actually, we just end up repressing and suppressing feelings that are just a response to what's going on.

And actually, we can learn from them. So envy, for example, might point to unmet needs in the relationship or it might it might show that actually there are some insecurities about the role that you have within the family and both of those can be addressed and I think to to go into any kind of relationship new relationship where there are kind of historical dynamics at the heart of it and assume that it's going to be easy and plain sailing for everyone is a bit unrealistic there may well be judgment there may be jealousy there may be anger or frustration or or misunderstanding but but I think just to allow people to feel that way and sometimes grieve the fact that you you're in love and you you had hoped that it would just be a lot smoother than maybe it was. And

again, I think when you accept how things are and that people feel how they feel and you just hold those healthy boundaries and it's okay to say, you know what, actually speaking to me in that way is not okay. And it's okay to hold those healthy boundaries. And then we just end up working with what is rather than suppressing feelings that often then come out sideways in those quips and those kind of sarcastic remarks that can actually just chip away at relationships far more than having an open, honest conversation. Martha and Alexandra as well. Wonderful to have your experiences and to share them with the audience. Thank you for everybody for getting in touch this morning. Just a quick one on surgical menopause. This text says,

well done for flagging this up. As a GP, I've been appalled at hospital treatments, both medical and surgical, where menstrual health is affected, where specialists don't consider the future of their patients and fostering as well.

Your interviewee made fostering sound like a well-supported activity. When my daughter fostered, she was promised the earth. When push came to shove, there was no support available. Thank you so much for listening. Happy New Year's Eve to you all. Join Nuala tomorrow. She dons her walking boots to explore all things women

and walking in our New Year's Day special. Miranda Hart is one of her guests. That's all from today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. World of Secrets is where untold stories are exposed. And in this new series, we investigate the dark side of the wellness industry. Following the story of a woman who joined a yoga school only to uncover a world she never expected. I feel that I have no other choice.

The only thing I can do is to speak about this. Where the hope of spiritual breakthroughs leaves people vulnerable to exploitation. You just get sucked in so gradually and it's done so skillfully that you don't realise. World of Secrets, The Bad Guru. Listen first on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.