Woman's Hour - Beth Orton performs live, The 23-year divorce case, DJ Smokin Jo

Episode Date: June 26, 2026

For three decades, the singer-songwriter Beth Orton has remained one of the most distinctive voices in contemporary music. She’s developed a devoted audience, winning a BRIT Award and Mercury Prize nominations for albums such as Trailer Park and Central Reservation. She has collaborated with artists such as The Chemical Brothers, Andrew Weatherall and Nick Cave, and she’s performed at venues including the Royal Albert Hall, Sydney Opera House, Glastonbury Festival and Carnegie Hall. Her 2022 album, Weather Alive, became a major critical breakthrough. Her first self-produced album, it earned widespread acclaim, with The New York Times praising its “modal vocal phrases". Beth joins Anita to discuss her new album The Ground Above, and to perform live.Schools across England and Wales have faced major disruption this week as extreme heat forces closures and early finishes. BBC analysis suggests more than 2,400 schools have either shut or been disrupted as temperatures climbed. It’s raised fresh questions about whether the education system and its buildings are prepared for hotter summers. BBC Education reporter Vanessa Clarke explains the impact the heat has had alongside Harry Paticas, architect and Founder of RAFT, non-profit community organisation focussing on reducing emissions in schools and communities.Varsha Gohil’s 23 year case against her ex-husband changed the law for anyone whose spouse hides their wealth in divorce proceedings. It is thought to be the one of the longest-running financial disputes in English family law. Varsha tells Anita Rani about a two-decade battle that included gaining a law degree and representing herself in court. DJ Smokin Jo has been a trailblazer in an industry largely dominated by men. A resident at the legendary Trade parties in London in the early 90s she was soon playing the world’s biggest clubs and was the first - and still only - woman to be named DJ Magazine’s DJ of the year. Jo joins Anita to discuss her memoir which details the highs and lows of her career, from finding her community on the dancefloor to rehab, misogyny and what has and hasn’t changed for women in dance music. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Simon Richardson

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Your sales order says one thing. Your inventory says another. Your spreadsheet says, good luck. Odu brings your business together on a single platform, from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing. Visit Odo.com to book a demo. It's ODbolo.com. The Signal Awards recognize the podcast that define culture, and being honored by the Signal Awards sets your production. team apart with recognition from the industry's top experts and access proof that your work is a standard bearer for podcasting worldwide. By entering, your work is heard by the Signal Awards

Judging Academy, an invitation-only body of podcast professionals from acclaimed organizations, which include the BBC. Grow your audience, celebrate your team, and stand out. The final entry deadline to submit is the 26th of June. Enter your podcast at signalaward.com for consideration. Hello, I'm Anita Rani, and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and welcome to the program.

Beth Orton is with us. She'll be performing live in the Woman's Hour studio, music from her stunning new album. Now imagine being in a 23-year court case with your ex-partner seeking to prove that they were hiding assets. Versa Gohel has set a new legal precedent that spouses must honestly declare their assets before a divorce settlement can be reached. How did she do it? By training as a lawyer herself to fight her case. She'll be here to tell us all about it. And she was the first and still is the only woman ever to be named,

DJ magazines, DJ of the year. Unbelievable, that was in 1992, and she wasn't even put on the cover. The Trailblazer DJ Smoking Joe has written a memoir detailing the turbulent tale of how she became a superstar DJ. And some schools have been closing due to the extreme heat. So I'd like to know this morning how that's impacting your life. Are you a teacher managing a hot classroom?

Are you a parent whose kids have been sent home? How are you coping or are you not? Get in touch and tell me, whatever you would like to tell me in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can WhatsApp the program. It's 037100-400-444. Or you can email us by going to our websites.

But that text number once again, 84844. Schools across England and Wales have faced major disruption this week as extreme heat forces closures and early finishes. BBC analysis suggests that more than 2,400 schools have either shut or being disrupted as temperatures climbed. It's raised fresh questions about whether the education system and its buildings are prepared for hotter summers. Well, I'm joined now by BBC Education reporter Vanessa Clark.

Morning, Vanessa. So... Morning. Tell us more. How have schools responded across the country? What's been happening? Well, I think it's fair to say it's not been an easy week for schools or teachers or parents. So some have closed completely.

Our figures show that more than 2000 have been disrupted. in some way. Now that doesn't account for all schools because many actually don't publish on websites when they're going to close. But we have a bit of an estimate that's more than 2000 definitely. Others are closing early so maybe before the building gets too hot they're sending the children home or giving the option to parents of collecting them. But to be fair, a lot of schools have stayed open this week. They're allowing PE kits to be worn. No strenuous exercises, you know, keeping things cool and calm, maybe having cooler options on the school dinner menu. Just trying, I suppose, to make kids and teachers as comfortable as possible.

The Education Secretary Bridget Phillipson said on today, yesterday, the hot weather can be really difficult for children, for staff, but we're encouraging schools to try and stay open as a priority. Is there a maximum temperature for schools before they have to close? There's not actually. There's no maximum temperatures. The union say around 26 degrees is like a comfortable. high. But the problem is many school buildings, as we know in this country, are old. So you have the unions who actually wrote to Bridget Phillipson this week saying every school closure this week is a

direct consequence of failing to invest in the school estate. You know, a lot of them that haven't been built in the last 10 years have no air conditioning. You know, the unions are saying progress is too slow. Schools need to be retrofitted with air conditioning, something that, you know, only, as I said, the newer schools tend to do. So basically schools are doing what they can. And I spoke to one head teacher this morning and I asked her how the week had been and she said it was basically survival mode very hard for kids to concentrate

sometimes in those hot temperatures. Yeah and survival mode for parents as well. So how is the uncertainty affecting working parents who may need to leave work at short notice? What's happening? Well, to be fair, I think a lot of parents are understanding but some, as you say, have work commitments and are finding it really hard

and what I'm hearing most sometimes is the uncertainty. So sometimes when the school gives the option of collecting early. You know, there's a severe mum or dad guilt kicks in when your kid is the last one there left all sweaty at the end of the day. But I think one group that are finding particularly challenging are parents

with vulnerable children or with special educational needs and disabilities. You know, sometimes school is the best place for them. Other times home is. So there's a really tough balance for parents trying to keep their children cool in the heat. Do we need to revisit the structure of the school day, do you think, during summer?

Well, this is something actually that Bridget Philipson mentioned yesterday that the government will review options like changing the school timetable as temperatures rise. The way it works at the moment is all schools have to open for a minimum of 32 and a half hours a week. So that's normally a Monday to Friday, maybe 845 to 315. But actually, Academy trusts and governing bodies, they get to decide the finish and the start time at the moment so they can adjust it if they want. But an early finish or an early start means an earlier finish for parents. So maybe that's not the best option for parents either. So I think there's a lot of discussions to be had about all of this in the future.

Yeah. And if this heat wave had come a week earlier, how disruptive would it have been for the exams? Well, I think exam students will be very happy that it didn't because, you know, there's not a lot schools can do. They might have had to move location, maybe into a cooler PE hall or something like that. It's very unusual for exams to be cancelled. You know, sometimes in extreme circumstances, they are, as we know, during. COVID but during this I think they would have tried to find maybe alternatives like cooler buildings, air conditioning, but very hard to concentrate in these really high temperatures.

So if it was another year and it fell within that exam period time, you know, we might have had a very different situation for them. Vanessa, thank you very much. That was the BBC Education Reporter, Vanessa Clark, 8444. If you're a parent or a teacher and you'd like to share your experience with us, then do get in touch. Now, Harry Patechus is an architect and founder of Raft, a non-profit community organisation, focusing on reducing emissions in schools and communities. Good morning, Harry. Welcome.

What is it about the architecture of schools that makes it hard for them to cope in this heat? Good morning, love you to be here. So schools and building sites, we need to talk about the whole site as well, are largely not fit for purpose during heat waves. We didn't used to get heat waves like this. we didn't get heat waves for this long. The schools generally have too much glazing. They have large expenses of glazing because glazing is good for light levels in the classroom.

It's a more healthy environment. But unfortunately, glass, single glazing, double glazing, it lets a huge amount of heat in. And then there's a problem of how do we get that heat out? So there's something called nighttime cooling that should be talked about more and it needs to be investigated in schools. And it's basically the process where you open windows on opposite side to the building.

You allow those cooler nighttime temperatures to gradually move air through the building, remove the heat from the building so that the next day you can start off at a lower temperature in the classroom so that you can actually get a longer period of comfort for pupils. So nighttime cooling is one, one of the solutions, to the fact that schools overheat. that there's a lot of, I think it's worth saying that playgrounds are very often tarmac. They act as giant radiators. And when the sun shines on them, we actually recorded a school last week in Catford where the temperature of the playground was 60 degrees.

Now, if you moved into, and this is using a digital thermometer, if you move into the shade of a tree, that temperature reduced by 25 to 30 degrees. and so we really, really need to think about shading our playgrounds. And the lovely opportunity there is that we can actually encourage a greater and stronger connection of pupils to nature. Courage nature connectedness, encourage habitat creation, biodiversity. And so we could have a win-win there where we can actually start to cool playgrounds, which would then call the school, stop the radiation of heat into the school and improve the learning environment. What can schools do?

I mean, because, you know, that is a great idea, but it will take time. So what can they do in the short term? Are there any quick fixes for today? Absolutely. Absolutely. I've got four quick fixes. Fantastic. We're making notes.

Yeah, yeah. So the first one is basically to try and externally shade your windows. Now, there's some fun techniques that have been shared on the internet this week about painting yoghurt on the outside. Yacht? It sells for about 15 seconds, then it goes away. But you can actually paint yogurt on the outside face of the window. window if you can safely access it. And then that will act as a reflective film on the window.

It can easily be washed off in the future, but that can act as a really good shading, temporary shading device for the window. I went for a walk locally last night and I saw a lot of white sheets closed on the outside of windows. So that's also, that's a similar thing. So some form of temporary shading is my first one. The second one is the one I've just mentioned earlier, which is night time cooling, a conscious effort to actually make sure that at the end of the day, windows are left open to try and call spaces. The third one is about moving around the school to find those cooler spaces. So actually see what you can do in terms of identify, use thermometers, work out which are

the hotter rooms, which are the cooler rooms. Can you find an outdoor learning corner somewhere under a tree? Can you actually just reschedule lessons and move them out? And I think that the fourth one is actually about reducing internal heat gains. If you were to grab a thermographic camera and go into a classroom in the middle of a heat wave, you might see one of many, many things. You might see some hot water pipes, moving hot water around the school. That needs to be addressed.

They might be uninsulated, so they'll be letting off more heat. And that's called internal heat gains. And that's completely unnecessary. You've got a bad situation. You're actually adding more heat to it. There might be a whole bank of computers charging. That will be also letting off a load of heat. We have even seen underfloor heating on in the summer whilst in a heat wave in a school.

I'm just going to read this out, Harry, whilst you mentioned that. So we've had a message in saying, my partner is the teacher. The heating in their school is on year round, as apparently it cannot be switched off. They've been open all week despite staff and children experiencing sickness and dizziness due to the extreme conditions. So there you go. People are getting in touch and telling us the same thing. It's not that uncommon. And I should say that the DFE do know this and they are addressing it.

it through a new policy, the education estate strategy, tenure policy. And they're very much looking at something that we really believe passionately in a raft, which is that we want to encourage staff and pupils to become active agents of change in their school environment. And so we actually encourage students to learn about the fabric and services of the building so they can actually start to change it. And so the DFE is talking about 10, 20 year stewardship of building. So we're trying to help schools understand how do they, buildings actually work, you know, what can they do to them to make them more comfortable

and healthier learning places? Harry, thank you for that. That was Harry Petikas. He's an architect and founder of a raft. So there you go. Pots of yoghurt is what we all need. It's my takeaway from that. I didn't ask about the smell.

But anyway, I'm sure you could always wipe it off and put it on again the next day. He's smiling and nodding at me. I'm going to read out some of your messages because they're coming in. Too hot, says Judy. take a towel to school, work or work, wet it, place it around your neck. My office is too hot. I just pour a cup of cold water onto the towel at the back of my neck every so often or damp clothes, a tiny price to pay for temperature control.

Yeah, I back you on that one. Also, if you put that flannel into the fridge, it then does the same thing. It's even better. Hi, I'm working in a nursery within a school. we were working in 34 degrees Celsius, unbearable, even with fans. Luckily, we have a shady area in the yard. And another one here saying survival mode for teachers. Two, people are not talking about the effects on teachers,

particularly those with underlying health conditions and or menopausal women. 8444 is the text number. Now, very excited about my next guest. Because for three decades, singer-songwriter Beth Orton has been one of the most. most distinctive voices in contemporary music. She's built a devoted audience earning a Brit award and Mercury Prize nominations for albums, including Trailer Park and Central Reservation.

She's collaborated with artists as varied as the Chemical Brothers, Andrew Weatherall and Nick Cave, and her touring career has taken her to some of the world's most iconic stages from the Royal Albert Hall and the Sydney Opera House to Glastonbury and Carnegie Hall. In 2022, she released Weather Alive, her first self-produced album and a major critical breakthrough,

it drew widespread acclaim with the New York Times, praising its modal vocal phrases and marvelling, storytelling, and mojo celebrating its extraordinary writing. Well, today Beth returns with a brand new album, The Ground Above. And Beth, may I say, it's stunning. Thank you. Welcome. Thanks.

How are you? I'm good. I thought when you said the menopausal thing, you were looking right at me, like, and here we have Beth Ordon. Menopause, yeah. How are you? How is that?

How is that? What, the heat? Yes, the menopause. Oh, I don't know. We'll go straight in. It's Woman's Hour. It's Women's Hour. Let's talk about it.

I'm not sure. I'm not sure I know anymore. I'm like, is it, isn't it? Is this it? I don't know. But it's creative. I'll say that. It's fertile.

It has a different fertility to it, isn't it, right? It's like we're at a different kind of creative stage in our lives, I think. Tell me more, because this album is beautiful. So where did the, what creative stage are you at? And where did the idea come from? What was the beginning, the spark? Well, the first song, of the record is called the ground above

and there's a line in it called I'm invincible as grief and I got a piano back in 2017 and I was I was just I think the thing is for me at this stage in my life is you know it's like

it's just the honesty of it just like the compliance has left and the honesty has arrived in full force and the kind of with it is sort of like digging into the sort of into your weirdness, you know, not being a, just like, okay, good, I'm weird, okay, fine. And creatively, you know, that's just becoming the expression of whatever it is.

It's just, it's like having, it's like the difference between having like a, you know, small talk. I have no interest in small talk. So I've never been very good at it anyway, and I've never been very good at it in my songs. But so now I, yeah, I just, I mean, I don't know. I'm interested in this idea of lucid dreaming because I think sometimes, you know, we write from this very, I think people creatively often write from a very unconscious place and you go to a piano or a guitar or whatever it is you compose or write on that. And something unconscious comes and it's really interesting.

And then I find that I have to grow as a person to meet the work that comes from a place that's more intelligent than I am in some ways. You know what I mean? So yeah, I mean, it's fascinating. Yeah, channeling it through you. Well, I don't know because I feel like that, yeah, you could say that, oh, I just think we have, we are just these, these huge, we have a wealth of, I don't know. We're very deep, aren't we little humans? Yeah, more than we know. Yeah. What was the significance of the piano arriving in 2017?

How did that change? I don't know. I came off guitar and came off guitar. I went into rehab, came off guitar. And I found that I was, I don't know, just sort of opened up the kind of possibilities. It was like a whole other palette of colours, I guess. I mentioned some of the incredible people you've worked with in the past, the late great Andrew Weatherall, Chemical Brothers, William Orbit.

Tell them about some of the people you've worked with on this album. Incredible people. Sam Best from Vernon Spring, plays piano all over it. Shazard is Smiley he's in New York and he is someone I work with a lot remotely on the last record and then did similarly on this but also

in person in his studio in New York and then in London Chris Vattelaro who is a long-term friend and collaborator drummer Tom Herbert on bass and it's just like and David Kumu

on guitars and so and it's just yeah working with an incredible bunch of people. Can we talk about some of the themes in the album? Yeah. Because you just talked about the sort of lucid dreaming, but you document things like survival, the renewal, motherhoods. I mean, not literally, but I think there are those themes.

I found it quite hard to sort of pinpoint themes on the record because it's just like for me every line has a story in a way. It's like every line has. But it's just like every, every kind of, yeah, every corner of it is pulled from somewhere quite deep and not always literal. And I'm never very good at the literal of it all. And that's all what I mean. It's a bit like, you know, when you dream, you have these dreams and they tell you something if you know. But I think songs are very similar.

You go to an instrument and you something comes up and you don't entirely know. of what it's about and then you live until you do understand and then you finish the song and by then you can you can tell so i mean themes of um in the song i'm going to play today waiting i think themes of sort of like this this holding pattern that we put ourselves in that we think we have to be this the perfect version of ourselves before we can enter into the world and i think the pressure on us to to be greater than is humanly possible yeah i think that think we should try and be our best selves and work, but you also have to allow for, you know,

I don't know, divine intervention sometimes. And I don't know. No, we do put too much pressure on ourselves, particularly women. I want to talk about your kind of early career talking of that. And you won some major awards, as I mentioned, a Brit Award, nominate for two Mercury Prize. What do you remember about winning those awards and how did they affect you at the time?

I remember with the Brit Award I literally had no idea and my manager kind of I was just drifting off I was getting a bit bored you know sitting around the table it had been a long night probably quite drunk

and my manager kind of kicked me under the table I guess she knew what was coming and she was like you're right and I said yeah and then they mentioned my name and I was very surprised I found it all a bit

it was so came out of nowhere did you feel under more pressure once you'd won the award and had the nominations I think so yeah I think there is a lot of pressure and it meets a wonderful thing. But it's, you know, yeah, I think there was pressure definitely.

And, yeah, I'm not sure I did so well under the pressure, honestly. Yeah. What do you mean? Well, what do I mean? I kind of, yeah, I don't know. I'm not sure that I was my best self in that kind of under that pressure. It didn't necessarily, not about awards or anything, but just, I think I was suddenly on this path and, you know, touring America a lot and doing a lot of,

you just move and move and move and move and move and I think I felt like it detracted in some way from the kind of creative endeavor. And one of the things that's lovely about these last few years is this sort of sense of just being in my own kind of, you know, being a mother, having no time and yet so much experience constantly, you know, it's a very emotional involvement. You know, bringing up kids is incredibly stirring stuff. And yeah, so the right. You've got two children. I have, yeah.

And then how has motherhood affected your life and your work? Yeah, I think, I mean, it's interesting. With at the moment my daughter's moving into the place of she's leaving home. And I've just crossed the age that my mum was when she died. And so she's the age that I was when, and it's just like, oh my goodness, it's these convergence of things that happen a lot of the time. And it's just, it's wonderful to be a parent. And it's also, it really, it sort of dredges you.

You have to kind of like, you know, gird your loins. You have to really pull. from places that... How did that moment feel when you realised that you'd cross the age? Yeah, I was on stage at Cafe de Paris in Paris and I sort of felt myself mentioning it to the audience because I was like, oh my gosh, it was my birthday

and I thought that I was going to feel really kind of... But I devastated or whatever, or sad, or I just felt liberated. I felt like, okay, finally, I can just get on with being me and kind of let go of that kind of. kind of, you know, I don't know, expectation of living for someone else almost. And the fact that there is no blueprint, I think, for us, you know, especially for women, there's no blueprint. At a certain point, you are just building the road as you walk it.

And because, yeah, the science is not built for... Around us. Yes, exactly. I'm going to get you to play. The piano is open. It's looking beautiful. But before you do, what's it like having children who are now sort of realizing what Mum's life was like in the 90s? Is that happening?

Are they kind of asking you questions? Because in the 90s is back now in a big way. He's been back for a while. It has, doesn't it? I mean, there are questions. I haven't delved too deep. Occasionally give a little bit away here and there. But yeah, my son not so much, but my daughter is a bit more like tuned into it.

Yeah. You're going to play for us. Yeah. The track, Wait. Would you take your place at the piano? Beth, thank you so much. This is going to be quite extraordinary. Beth Orton is going to be singing and playing on the piano

from her album which is out today, The Ground Above. She'll be on tour in the UK in October and this is waiting. Beth Orton, thank you so much. That was stunning. And her album The Ground Above is out today. and as I said she'll be on tour in the UK in October and the album is beautiful, Beth. Thank you, thank you so much.

84844 is the text number. Do you have an unusual or an interesting job that you think our listeners should hear about? You might be part of an all-female team or perhaps the only woman in your field. Well, last year for Listener Week, it was suggested that we talked to Mary Havana, little about traditional crafts.

Mary is one of the few women in the plastering world working as a traditional fibrous plasterer. We use all the traditional methods that we used sort of like 500 years ago and all the same materials. First of all, you start off with, you know, what we're repairing or, say, it's a drawing. We're of a corb or a ceiling rose. We get it made in clay. And then we bring it back to the yard and we mould it.

And then the process of actually making it starts. And it's quite a quick process. People seem to think it takes, you know, hours for plaster to set, but it doesn't. It takes about 10 minutes. People really respect me now for my work, but I've worked really hard to get where I am. I didn't see any other girls. And when I was little,

there wasn't a tradeswoman to look up to. So I had to become sort of my own. Mary Havana, Little there. Very inspiring, she is too. And if you'd like to feature on the programme or want us to come along to see you in action, then contact us in the usual way. You can text Woman's Hour on 84844.

Contact us on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour or email us through our website. website and that will be for Listener Week. The Signal Awards recognize the podcast that define culture and being honored by the Signal Awards sets your production team apart with recognition from the industry's top experts and access proof that your work is a standard bearer for podcasting worldwide. By entering, your work is heard by the Signal Awards Judging Academy, an invitation-only body of

podcast professionals from acclaimed organizations which include the BBC. Grow your audience, celebrate your team and stand out. The final entry deadline to submit is the 26th of June. Enter your podcast at signalaward.com for consideration. Now, my next guest fought a 23-year legal battle, often representing herself in court because she believed that her ex-husband had lied about his wealth in their divorce. It's thought to be one of the longest-running financial disputes in English family law, and Versa Gohel's case has set a legal precedent that spouses must honestly declare their assets

before a divorce settlement can be reached. In 2004, Versa was awarded £270,000. At that time, she was living with her parents, along with her three children, and she believed that her ex-husband was much wealthier than he'd let on. Two decades later, a high court judge agreed and awarded her £6.6 million. Fursha, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you. Thank you, Anita. So that was in June last year, but the judgment has only recently been made public.

Yes. There are complicated legal reasons for that, as I think it's fair to say, there are, to all aspects of this case. Yes. How does it feel to be talking publicly about something that's consistent, consumed your life for so long? It's a conscious decision because as I was going through the journey, I was very silent about what I was going through

and I'd resolve that this story has to be told because so many women are affected by it. So actually it's a relief to talk about it finally now that it's over. So let's go back to 2002. You left your husband. What happened? Yes, that's right. I discovered his affair. It wasn't just a normal affair. It had been going on for two years. And I had three children under 10. So it was an extra hard shock. The fact that I'd been living with a man for two years. I'd never heard of this woman. She was newly divorced and had children. So I was just like in such a shock. But I knew that really the marriage was over.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he denies the infidelity. I must say. I think your youngest child was about five at the time and two others under 10. That's right. So you moved in with your parents and how did your life change? It changed completely. One minute we had everything and no worries. Everything was very normal. And the next minute we were completely rock bottom. We had nothing. And that's why I moved in with my parents because then immediately everything was cut off. No money, no home, no schools. The children's schools also. became a problem. So it was really, really traumatic, not just for myself, but the children as well. So not only was I dealing with the heartache of the discovery of the affair, but I also had to

shield and look after my children through these really difficult times. And then in 2004, you were awarded your divorce settlement of £270,000, which is a considerable sum, but a fraction of the final settlement. What was your reaction at the time? What did you think at the time? Yes, I was devastated. I was utterly devastated because we had had a fierce two-year litigation. So after that, when there's no hope, it was absolutely broke me. It took me several months to come back together and pick up the pieces from that. What made you suspicious that he had more money than he declared?

Because of our lifestyle. I knew because he had told me and we lived a much better lifestyle than he declared in the, in the proceedings. It's just that I could never prove it, or at least not up to that point. I know that you'd represented yourself early on at various points when the money ran out for lawyers.

But tell me about your decision, your quite extraordinary, brilliant decision, to study law. What motivated you to do that? Where did that come from? Thank you. Well, it was a decision, once you're rock bottom,

The only way you can go is up. So I knew I had to rebuild my life. A lot of the money that I originally got was taken up with legal fees. So there wasn't very much left. And I knew that I had these children all under 10. There were schools, university, marriages. I mean, there was a lifetime to provide for these children. So I decided that I needed a career that would be, you know, that could give me a good living.

Because before that, you'd been a housewife, caring for family. members, your in-laws, children. Yes, we were a traditional Hindu household, joint family. So I was doing all the traditional role looking after the family. And I guess that's why this betrayal was so much worse because it wasn't just my husband. It was his whole family that sided with him, even though he was the wrongdoer. So it was very helpful. So when you decided to put yourself back through education, where did that self-executive?

Where did that self-belief to set off on this totally new path come from? Well, I had to pick up the pieces of myself and I looked inward and I questioned myself and why I found myself in such a terrible situation and why my trust was broken. So after mending my own self-worth, self-esteem and of course I had a loving family and my parents who helped build my confidence. So that's where the self-belief came. And I thought, well, you know what, let's look at this as a new opportunity to do something for myself. And I loved every minute of it. It was fantastic.

So with your growing legal expertise, you gathered new evidence to show that he hadn't been honest in what it was telling the court in your divorce case. And you built a case yourself to apply for the family courts to revisit their earlier decision, something called a set aside. Can you explain what that means? Yes, set aside is when you have proof and you want to set aside the original order because you think you weren't given a fair settlement and that you should have had more. So the standard of proof is very high. So you have to be able to convince the court that you should have got that much more and it would have made a difference.

So it was a very high standard of proof, but I had the evidence. So that gave me the confidence. And, you know, I could take the chance. You were taking a chance. You had the evidence. You were putting yourself through school to become a solicitor. Yes. But then you learned something unbelievable about your husband.

So what happened in 2010? Yes. So then came as a shock whilst I was still studying, is that he was involved in criminal proceedings. So out of the blue by chance, I read that he has an investigation. and then the police called me. And, yeah, that was horrendous.

It's like you're hardly out of one terrible situation and then this awful situation comes on. And that had huge consequences because we were terrified. What, this man, you know, the betrayal is another layer worse. He was convicted in 2010 of money laundering and conspiracy to defraud and sentenced to 10 years. And I understand that you attended that trial every single day.

Yes, that's right. Why? So the reason for that is that my problem always from the onset was that he wasn't prepared to give any evidence. So any evidence that was required in order to prove that he had the assets or the level of assets, it wasn't forthcoming. So the only way that I could find out was through the criminal trial. And for that matter, the CPS had a restraint. order that was about four pages long with a whole long list of assets. And I had no idea what those assets were. So in a way, it revealed. Yes. So that's why you went in. That's right. So it

helped because it revealed the magnitude of the non-disclosure. Okay. There's so many twists in it's 23 years we're talking about. And then in 2015, you got the set aside hearing. Yes, that's right. You represented yourself. Yes. That's right. You represented yourself. Yes, that's right. I had the set-aside hearing. To be honest, by then, everything was so complex. And also, remember, I didn't have any money to fund litigation. So there was no choice. So yes, I did that. And thankfully, the judge set aside, granted me set aside. Yeah, so a judge ruled that the original divorce case should be heard again, setting a new precedent for divorce cases. Explain more. Yes, that's right. So this precedent was long overdue. because this problem of non-disclosure was chronic in the family law system. So luckily, it reached the Supreme Court.

It wasn't my intention that I should go to the Supreme Court. I just wanted it sorted earlier. So we went to the Supreme Court and there was Mrs. Charlend. And by divine intervention and, you know, fate, I had a lovely team that came forward and said, we will help you. So they assisted me in the Supreme Court and we won. and it's set a wonderful and a very useful precedent. And I really hope it makes a difference now.

Well, you made history at that point, but to go ahead and fight your case and to seek an improved settlement, you still had to spend years preparing a case, and that was now complicated because you're dealing with the CPS, who had criminal evidence on your ex-husband. I'm going to mention, you know, the number of years again, 23 years. Versa, did you ever just want to give up? No, I don't think I ever wanted to give up because all of these steps of victories,

the set aside being granted, the Supreme Court, they were all pointers to say, yes, you have a good case and you will get something. So I was not going to give up. But I did work very hard to make sure that at every stage I reviewed the fight that I was fighting to make sure that it was still valid and that, you know, it had. legs. You were being your own lawyer, your own solicitor and barrister. So you were doing two jobs. Yes. You were the client. Yes, that's right. Very, very hard, very hard. Because I had to take my emotions and feelings out of the case and just focus on the evidence and the law and how I was going to put it, present it to the court. It was very tough. What was the toughest part? I think the toughest part is when you have those falls, there were occasional falls there, that they devastate you.

It's like you're carrying your whole life and your future on your shoulders. And when things don't go right, it's like totally devastating. Your three children were all under 10 when you divorced your ex-husband and you moved in with your parents. How do they feel about seeing you fight for this long? This is all they've known. Yes. And a high court judge finally found in your favour, making you this award, giving you this award. You've now been awarded £6.6 million.

Yes. How do they feel? I mean, I think it was just their normality. Oh, mum is working. She's doing this. She's going to court. And I guess the tragedy is, I mean, it was very tough because I was managing the children, the home life and their education as well. But it was very tough.

And I think the toughest for me was just seeing their suffering on top of everything else. So, you know, it is their normality. So I think in a way, this decision and the final settlement is actually just help them to understand that there was a reason that mum was fighting. And the power of their mum as well. I mean, let me just read what the judge said. He said, the name Gohill will linger long in the memories of lawyers and judges across the world. a range of jurisdictions, whether, as has been suggested, this is the most extensively litigated family dispute in legal history, I don't, I do not know. It certainly can't be far off.

How did you feel hearing those words? I was so, so relieved, and that judgment for me, that is the justice, because the judge has gone above and beyond, and he's articulated everything that I was trying to prove, but I didn't feel like the voice was coming back from the courts. So in the judgment, it's just wonderful because they have articulated everything that I was saying was the truth and calling out my ex-husband as, you know, the deceptive person that he is. So from going to living in with your parents, finding it incredibly difficult, getting yourself back on your feet, having to bring up your children the way you did, putting yourself through school, fighting this legal case, all of that, 23 years of it.

And now you've been awarded this 6.6 million. I know you haven't, it's not with you. But what happens next? Well, what happens next is hopefully we can have a bit of a normal life because actually we never had that closure post-divorce that we should have had. And so now, hopefully, we can have a home that no way. can take away from us and it's stable and it's secure and now I can hopefully make amends and support the children for everything that they lost in the meantime. And you've set a precedent

for other people. Yes. Thank you. And of course I had again a huge number of miracles, you know, with Amio and Morgan also came on pro bono to help me through the trial. And that in itself was magical because I was going into the first. final hearing thinking, right, I've got to do this on my own. So, yeah, I think the divine intervention. For a sugar, hell, thank you so much for taking the time to come and share your quite extraordinary story with me. Thank you very much. Thank you, Anita. 844-844. We've had a message saying, what a delight to hear Beth Orton talking about life and singing and playing. What a lovely woman, practical, sensible, get on with life so refreshing in today's trying times.

848444 is the text number. Parenthoods can be full of love, but sometimes it can also feel lonely. In a recent episode of CBB's Parenting Download, presenters Katie Thistleton and Governor Bee here from former Love Island contestant and mental health advocate, Marlin Anderson, about her personal experience of parental loneliness and from clinical psychologist Dr. Chanel Dennis

about why parents still need other adults around them even when their children are at the centre of their world. That emotional connection that we have, that parent-child connection and love, is very different to that adult kind of love. And I don't just mean romantic love in terms of partners. I just mean that adult connection, like a toddler can, you know,

your child can love you purely and experience pure joy at being around you, but they can't necessarily give you companionship in a way that an adult can. You can talk to your dad, love, but you can't really say that, oh, I've been so stressed today and this has happened and that's happened. You need an adult for that. So trying to find and establish a village,

even if that village is made up of one person, I think that's going to really help to combat some of the loneliness that parents feel. Sometimes we can feel guilty. I love my child and they love myself purely, but it's not quite enough. And that's okay because it's not meant to be enough. It's not the same as we get from adults. And there's a lot more advice in that episode, which you can find by searching for CBB's parenting download,

tackling parental loneliness. Now, if you've ever been into house music, you'll definitely be familiar with my next guest, the trailblazing DJ who goes by the name of Smoking Joe, one of the original superstar DJs. She was the first and still only woman to ever be named, DJ Magazine's DJ of the year. Unbelievably, that was in 1992.

Joe has spent decades commanding dance floors in some of the best known clubs in the world from the UK to Abitha and Beyond. And as you might expect, she's gathered plenty of stories along the way, which she's shared with unflinching honesty in her memoir. Out now in paperback and provocatively titled, You Don't Need a Dick to DJ.

In it, she celebrates the highs and lows of her career, as well as discussing themes of drug and alcohol abuse, misogyny, racism and the reality of life as a woman in dance music. Joe, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you so much. I'm very happy to be here. I have to say, what an incredible story. How does it feel that it's all in this book and it's out there for people to read that now that you've written it all down? Yeah, it's a funny experience because I was very honest, as you said.

I felt very free to say what I wanted because I don't have parents anymore. I don't have any children. So I had no one that was going to probably feel a bit embarrassed or criticise me. So I just thought, you know, let's put it out there. I think when you're in the limelight, people have a very particular view of you. They think they know you. And I was always seen as someone who's maybe a bit aloof or she thinks she's a bit special. And so I kind of wanted people to understand what goes into it, what goes on behind the scenes.

Because, yeah, it's glamorous. You're DJing or traveling. It all looks great. But they don't realize what's going on underneath. And I've been very, very shy and introverted a lot of my life. So I kind of wanted to get that over, the struggle of being in the limelight. Did you know you were going to be as honest as you were going to be? before you started writing it.

I think I did because I did quite a lot of therapy and when you speak about stuff for that many years, I did about six years, it kind of becomes very normalized. So it didn't feel like I was kind of bearing my soul. I was just like, oh, I've said that before. I'll just kind of let everyone else know about it. I think some people were kind of a bit like,

oh, wow, you've really opened yourself. Even my co-writer was like, are you sure you want to write that in there? And I was like, yeah, I do, because this is what happened. Yeah, yeah. and it makes for a page turner. Thank you. I can't put it down.

Let's start the beginning because you didn't really have the easiest of upbringings. And you wrote about the time that you and your sister spent in children's home before later moving back in with your mum. What was it like revisiting that time? That was actually quite hard because I kind of thought I'd dealt with it because I don't obviously go back to that time a lot. When I was writing it, it was like, oh my God, this is what happened.

And it was horrible. It was a very Dickensian, children's home, you know, it was 70s. We were the only two black kids in the home. We were living in a sort of very white suburban area and it was pretty abusive. It was every day just a grind, get through, being told you're nothing every day, you're no good, no one loves you. So there was no love, no care, nothing. You just have to get on with it. So it's just surviving my childhood, basically, you know, and not feeling good about myself ever. So from that children's home, that very sort of white Dickensian children, as you describe it,

Then your mum came and got you. Yeah. And you moved to Notting Hill. I know. It was like, what's the contrast? It was like, I'd never seen another brown or black person ever.

And then we were living in Portland Road. And we were literally in the middle of like carnival, whatever. And the food was different. The smells were different. And there was music. I hadn't had music as a child. I'd only had Sunday school hymns or whatever. And my mom had quite a good record collection.

Like what? What was in it? He had like Motown, reggae, soul, jazz. and she had stuff like Barry Manilow and Santana. But I loved it all. Yeah. It was like, this is mute. This is something, you know, new.

I have to say one thing I really did appreciate was, you know, the soundtrack that accompanies this book. There's a lot of great records named in this. And if you are into house music, you know, the origins of it. It's all in this book. You dedicate this book to all the lost souls who found a home on the dance floor. Yeah. Is that how you felt?

Completely. You know, I never felt like I've, fitted in anywhere. And then when I first started going out, which was way too young, I was going out about 13, 14 sneaking out to go out. It was like, ah, these are my people. It was just like, you could be yourself. No one was kind of judging you or criticizing you. And with music, because it lifts your soul and because it touches those parts of the brain that we can't connect to normally, I was able to feel emotions. I had to lock all that stuff away in the home. So suddenly I was able to cry and laugh and find joy and, you know, I just couldn't get enough of it.

I can relate. You're a trailblazer when it comes to shaping the early house music scene, as I mentioned. Also seeing women in the UK. Also seeing women in the DJ booth. You had very few female role models in the late 80s and 90s. So what was it that made you think, I can do that? Yeah, I mean, just being silly, I think. I was just kind of going out a lot.

And I just was in love with house music and going to every single party I could go to. And I looked up one day and I was like, well, one night. And I was like, I've actually never seen a woman up there. That's not right. And it was a bit like, okay, I'm just going to do this. I didn't even think about it. I didn't even think it was going to go anywhere. I just thought I want to be a DJ.

And I was already in love with music. So I just had this passion and this drive and nothing was going to stop me. My friends were laughing at me, but I bought some decks. It took me a little while to get all the equipment, started practicing. And luckily, it happened really quickly. I was just in the right place at the right time. I managed to stand in for a guy at Trade, which is the first gay illegal, sorry, illegal after hours.

And then just from that one gig, I kind of stole his job, to be honest. And they gave me the residency. So that kind of, you know. Well, like you say, you've got residency at trades. And then you were playing all, soon, you were playing all over the world. Residences in Ibitha, legendary clubs like space and manumission. And as I mentioned in the opening, you're the first and still the only woman to be known, DJ Magazine's, DJ of the year, top 100.

You were only 25 at the time. What was that like? And also, they didn't. put you on the cover. I know. Can we talk about that? That really annoys me. Everyone goes to cover. Yeah, oh, thank you. Can I let's get them here to do it now. Yeah, they put me on like page six and they did this awful filter on my face. So you couldn't even see it was me and it was a very small mention that I'd won. But it was weird because at that time, I was still super shy, still lacking in confidence. So when I won, the gravity of it did not hit me. I was kind of like, oh, that's cool.

And they were like, would you want to bring some friends to the, you know, to the event? I was like, no, I'll just turn up, kind of got the award and went home and went to bed. I didn't even celebrate. And it's only really dawned on me the last 10 years. What an achievement that was. I'm so proud of myself. It's a huge achievement. Yeah.

I can still put you on the cover now. Yay. Something else that is constant throughout the book because it is who you are. It's like you're a female DJ, but also you're a brown woman in your space. Yeah. And this impacts every. every aspect of your life. It really does.

And I think that's probably another reason why I wasn't on the cover. They don't put women on the cover. And they definitely don't put many black faces on covers of magazines. So it has been a plus and a minus, I think. I definitely feel if I probably was, you know, white with blonde hair, I probably would have been way more successful. Might have got more kind of covers and more advertising, that kind of thing that goes along with it.

Unfortunately, I think things are changing a bit. You know, there are way, way more female DJs, which is amazing. And the best thing that I love is when they come up to me, the newer ones, the young ones, and say, I'm DJing because of you. And I'm like, oh. Yeah.

I particularly enjoyed the bits where you're, because you are friends with skin. Yeah. You know, another incredible black woman in the space and, like, the support that there is amongst black women. Yeah. You open the book with your arrival at rehab. So we know that you're going to go on some kind of,

on a recovery journey. But before that, drugs feature heavily in your book. You admit that you'd normalised a lot of problematic things, including how much you were partying. How do you reflect on that now?

It's the funny one, is it because house music is kind of synonymous with drugs, even when people don't want to say it is, it was all part of the scene. And because I'd come from such a traumatic childhood, I was drinking and using stuff early on just to numb my pain.

So by the time I was DJing and everyone else was doing it, it was completely normal to me. It didn't feel, wrong and it helped me to come out of my shine. So I was able to use that to give me the confidence to do my job almost. So it did become a crutch. I was never an addict, but it was habitual.

And, you know, I think, yeah, it's not great, is it? I went to live in Abitha and that got a little bit out of control. Before we get to taking yourself to rehab, which, you know, in itself takes a lot to get to do that. You also detail sometimes when you're in pretty unsafe situation. throughout your career, especially with men. Yeah. And you talk about feeling like you had to go through with certain situations

because saying no would make the situation worse. Well, I think most women have that happen to them. You know, as a female DJ, you're travelling to countries. You've never been there before. You don't know anyone. All the promoters, all the drivers are all men. So you're getting into a car sometimes with three strange men. You're going off into the middle of nowhere.

You know, it's a big risk every day you're putting yourself in these positions. and in some countries, some of the promoters seem to think that part of the deal was maybe that, you know, you're going to sleep with them or something. So you're constantly battling this all the time and, you know, it's a minefield. It's not great. No. How do you feel about it now? Angry, to be honest. I think I accepted way too much bad behaviour back in the day.

One, you think, okay, maybe I'm not going to get booked again or you get bad reputation or something's going to happen. I think it's in the book, but I remember being on tour in Asia and it's tiring. You know, you're going from one country to another. You're not sleeping much. and I'm still smashing all my sets. One of the promoters that emailed my agent and said, well, yeah, she was great, but she didn't smile and she didn't dress up and she looked tired.

And it was like, they would never, ever say that about a male teacher. No. They can rock up looking, you know, scruffy old t-shirt. You've now trained as a yoga teacher. Yep. What do you think yoga has given you? It's giving me peace and happiness and just a more calmness. And I've found my voice, to be honest.

I'd never really like speaking in public, and now I can. Yes. I feel quite comfortable. You found your voice here, but also you've said a lot through this book. We look forward to seeing you behind the decks again. Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're still out there doing it.

Oh, yeah. And what do you hope people will take from this story? I think it's just getting to know a bit more about me and seeing that you can come from trauma and still have an amazing life in a career. It's a very powerful message. Thank you, Joe, from joining us. joining us this morning. Thank you.

And the paperback version of Smoking Joe's memoir is out now. You'll be doing your thing DJing all over the place this summer from Shoreditch to Abitha, Croatia to Manchester. And we haven't approached DJ magazine for a response. But thanks to all of you for listening. Join me tomorrow for weekend, Women's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. So Alice Lockstone, I'm here for the history.

Well, Ben Henderson, I like the formality. And that's perfect because we have a lot of history to show. share. Why did T become such a British obsession? How did English turn into the language we speak today? And yes, why do women's clothes still not have pockets? Well, in our new podcast, Here for the History, we're investigating how stories from the past shape everyday life today. Basically, the things we've all noticed, but never stopped to question. Listen on BBC Sounds or watch on YouTube. Just search for Here for the History. The Signal Awards recognize the podcast that define and being honored by the Signal Awards sets your production team apart with recognition from

the industry's top experts and access proof that your work is a standard bearer for podcasting worldwide. By entering, your work is heard by the Signal Awards Judging Academy, an invitation-only body of podcast professionals from acclaimed organizations which include the BBC. Grow your audience, celebrate your team, and stand out. final entry deadline to submit is the 26th of June. Enter your podcast at signalaward.com for consideration.