Woman's Hour - Bette Davis, Vaccines, Andrew Cuomo, Disability and Dating

Episode Date: August 5, 2021

Bette Davis was one of the biggest names in Hollywood, nominated for ten Oscars and her extraordinary career spanned almost sixty years. An outspoken and dedicated actress, she created some of the most compelling characters in cinema history. As the BFI launches a whole season dedicated to her this month, we hear about her life and legacy.The new NHS England chief Amanda Pritchard has urged people aged 18-30 to come forward and be vaccinated. 3 million under 30s have yet to be jabbed, and one in five people currently in hospital in England with Covid are in the 18-30 category. Professor Susan Michie tells us what can be done to address young adults concerns. New York Governor Andrew Cuomo's political career hangs in the balance, as the pressure for him to resign mounts. He's been accused of sexual misconduct by 11 women and an independent report corroborates the stories. If he goes, the first female New York Governor is likely to be elected. Cuomo denies the allegations and has shown no willingness stand down over them. Stephanie Stark worked in his office, and has separately done research on how sexual harassment accusations impacts voters. Steven Erlanger is from the New York Times.Love Island is one of the biggest reality TV shows in the UK. And this season, one contestant has become the first disabled person to feature on the programme. Emma speaks to Joy Addo, who has a podcast where she talks about her life as a blind, single mum, and Kelly Gordon, the Disability and Inclusion Lead at sex toy company Hot Octopuss, to discuss the realities of dating with a disability.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Frankie Tobi

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to the programme. Speaking for the first time since she took over as the Chief of NHS England, Amanda Pritchard today has urged young people, which for this purpose means people aged roughly 18 to 30, to come forward and be jabbed. This is because three million under 30s have yet to be jabbed.

And one in five people currently in hospital in England with Covid are in the 18 to 30 category. Just take that in. Three million under 30s have yet to be jabbed. But she's also urged anyone who knows anyone in this age group who hasn't been vaccinated to act. She says now is the time. To be clear, I'm not talking here about the news to jab 16 and 17 year olds. That's a totally different conversation that's also raging across the country after yesterday's news. And I'm not talking about those younger people who want to get their second jabs and can't do so yet. Perhaps they're desperate to get away and be allowed to travel. I'm talking about the three million under 30s who have yet to be jabbed at all. And now the call has come from the new head of NHS England for you,

if you know someone in that category to act, or if you are someone in that age category to go and be jabbed. My question to you today is how best to make the case. How best to say to somebody who does not or will not be jabbed that they should be? Now, of course, there can be a whole other debate about whether you think it's anyone else's role to do that. But with that message loud and clear,

and perhaps you've had some of these conversations, is it the presenting of facts? Is it showing data? Lots of those charts became very familiar to us over the last 16 months. Is it showing that person what's happening to younger people in hospital? You only have to look at today's headlines

and what came out yesterday. The tragic story of John Ayres, a fit and healthy 42-year-old, albeit a bit older, but still in the younger category, who loved climbing mountains and lifting weights. His twin sister has spoken out after he died of COVID-19, after he refused to get vaccinated. According to his twin sister, he thought that if he contracted COVID-19, he'd be okay. He thought he'd have a mild illness. He didn't want to put a vaccine in his body.

And yet now, his twin sister and his mother are mourning his death. Is it bribes from government in a move that's been described as kebabs for jabs? Reports of discounted taxi rides and takeaways now being offered to young adults to try and improve the vaccination take-up. In a moment, I'll be speaking to a behavioural expert about the best ways, the strategies that she's seen work. But what is your view? If you've had this sort of conversation, maybe it was someone your own age, your jab there, not, or vice versa, how has it gone down? What's worked? What hasn't? What is the best way to act now to use the new chief of the NHS England's words back at you? 84844. That's the number you need to text me here at women's hour social media

it's at bbc women's hour or you can email me through our website a message that's come in straight away from catriona on social media says first i'd share my experience and my colleagues and friends experiences of immunization i talk about how grateful i am to have been given immunization and i discuss the side effects I'd have and I'd then be ready to talk about how bad COVID-19 can be, especially long COVID. So that's what Catriona's doing or wants to be doing or would be up for doing. What about you? Let me know. Let's have this conversation. Also on today's programme, we'll be hearing from someone who used to work in the New York Governor Andrew Cuomo's office as he stands accused of sexually harassing 11 women in the workplace.

The governor denies all allegations, but can he stay on? Disability and dating, what is it really like? Two women are not going to hold back after Love Island takes a step forward. And what we can learn from the Hollywood legend, Betty Davis. All that to come on the programme. But first, let's hear from Amanda Pritchard, the new NHS England chief executive, speaking for the first time since assuming the role and the first woman, of course, to run the NHS in England. It's still really important that for those people who have not yet taken the opportunity to come forward or they know someone who hasn't, you know, this is the time. And the reason it is so important is we have,

as of today, over 5,000 people really unwell in hospital. One in five, 20%, are young people. So in that 18 to 30 category, and that compares with one in 20 at the peak in January time. What can then be done to address young adults' concerns? I'm now joined by Susan Mickey, Professor of Health Psychology and Director of the Centre for Behavioural Change at the University College London. She sits on the Spy B Sage subcommittee. That's an independent panel who advise the government on behavioural science.

She joins us today and talking in a personal capacity. Good morning. Good morning. Is it that? Is it just hearing someone with an overview of the NHS in England say how bad it is in hospital at the moment that might convince somebody to get a jab? It's not one thing. First of all, it's really important that our young people have information about the risks and benefits in a form that they can understand, that is accessible

to them. Secondly, it's really important that it's easy, that they have local accessible places where they can easily get the jab and also that they can get paid time off work and they can be reassured that their job won't be in jeopardy if they take the time off. And thirdly, yes, they need to be persuaded by the arguments. And having people who they respect and trust explain what the advantages are, such as it's not just about protecting yourself, but it reduces transmission onwards. So it helps to protect loved ones and one's community. Other persuasive arguments about long COVID, studies vary, but

roughly 8% of young people are going on to have symptoms of several months. And so you've raised, sorry, you've read quite a few things. So if I just to unpack those, especially around the argument point, because some of what you've described is, of course, about resource and how the government allocates that. But some of it is about these things, these conversations. And I suppose just picking up on Amanda Pritchard's call today, that really is from people to people. You talk about transmission, transmission of information and persuading. In your experience with behavioural science, is it more that people will change their mind if they think they're going to benefit personally, or if they are going to protect others? Are we more selfish? Or are we more motivated by looking after others? Well, people vary. And actually, both of those are powerful motivators.

But certainly evidence early on in the pandemic showed that actually the motivation of looking after others was a very powerful motivator. But again, other studies have shown that actually protecting yourself is a powerful motivator. But one thing I would say is that it's incredibly important to start from where the young people are. What are their concerns? What are their fears and anxieties?

Listen to those and engage with those so that the information or the arguments being given is within the context of what they personally are concerned about, rather than blanket statements. Because the other thing just to say here, and the perfect message almost has come in with no name on it, saying someone else saying, I'm very happy we're talking about this and actually concerned about jab provision. I'll come back to that in a moment. But there's one here which says,

my daughter's partner will not have a jab. She's now been influenced by him. He's a full-on conspiracy theorist. I've tried discussing with him, but I find it completely frustrating as everything I say just confirms his beliefs. I'm looking for answers. What would you say to that individual? Well, I think it's really important to distinguish between what's called vaccine hesitant, which is the greatest number of people who haven't yet been vaccinated.

They could get vaccinated if some of the things we've been talking about happen systematically. And then a much smaller group of people, but a vocal group of people who are resistant, who have really gone along with the conspiracy theories. And I think with that group, it's very, very difficult to change minds

because those belief systems are very embedded. So I think with that group, it's very, very difficult to change minds because those belief systems are very embedded. So I think the important thing is to focus on the much bigger group who haven't yet had the vaccination, but could be persuaded. And if there was, it was made easy, you know, local and assured that they could get it quickly and not risk jobs. What if they're not necessarily a conspiracy theorist though either, where, as I've had this conversation with a young woman who says a mixture of these things. She says things like she doesn't believe,

and we've just got another message about this, that COVID's that bad, that the scale of it's been exaggerated. She doesn't trust the government and has various reasons, some true, some not, for that. And she also wants more time. And especially as a woman, she has particular concerns about long term implications for health, more time for the jab to roll out and for effect. So there's sort of a mixture there. And I think on balance, she could come over, but I don't think she's going to any

time soon. I think that the issue of trust is huge. And I think one key thing is to say to people, who would you trust to talk to? Would you trust talking to your GP? Would you trust talking to a local faith leader? Would you trust talking to somebody you respect in your family or friend network? And encourage people to go and talk to people they respect. Because if they don't trust the person who's talking to them, then you're not off the starting block. And then hopefully the people who they talk to will be able to give the information. And it's very important to think it's not about just thinking about the risk of the vaccination, but it's putting that alongside the much greater risk of COVID. And I think the combination of statistics about immediate likelihood of really, really unpleasant symptoms, possible hospitalisation, especially long COVID. And we don't know what it's doing to young people in the long term. We know that COVID affects many organs in the body, including the brain. And the experience of exhaustion and brain fog that so many people have shows the damage being done to the brain that we don't know what the long term implications are. So I think focusing on the really known problems of COVID

and the unknown long-term implications of getting infected versus being immunised through vaccination, where the most you'll get is a sore arm and some people get headaches or really tired for a couple of days. What do you say? Comparison. Yeah, and that comparison. But some people, Susan, as much as I hate this to be the truth, people get headaches or you know really tired for a couple of days what what do you say yeah and that comparison but some people susan as much as i hate this to be the truth many people will never hear our conversation they'll i know you've spoken so many times on so many platforms but

you're not a wellness influencer you don't as far as i know have millions of people who follow you on instagram and neither do i um and neither, you know, this programme's popular, but it's not in the same league. And for instance, in some people's minds, and a message here, in my office working in TV, mostly under 30, there's a huge gulf between those who are or are not vaccinated, those who don't want to talk about it, lack of long-term data, fertility issues,

I want to come back to that in a moment, government control and lack of information. But all these people get their information from wellness, fitness Instagram accounts, small, unverified scientific studies. I don't think there is any persuading these people unless you tackle misinformation from these influencers. And for a lot of people, it's the only media they consume. Well, we know that's not. No controls seem to be possible in that sphere. I mean, absolutely right about what are the modalities,

what are the media that young people are listening to? And absolutely right, that's where the arguments, the discussions, the debates need to happen. And certainly I have engaged with, I won't say the names of them, but magazines and online forum, which is specifically involved and targeting young people. And go to where young people are. Have stalls, have pop-up tents and offers of jabs, you know,

at festivals, at different places. Have you had a sort of stand-up row with anyone yet about this? I mean, you seem a cool customer, but I'm genuinely asking because the frustration that's coming through here from people who think they're listened to you know you might hope if you're someone's mum they might give you a smidgen of respect they're not getting through yep so I know a lot of people in the age range you're talking about because I have three children in their early 30s who, in turn, have a huge variety of friends. And they are similarly frustrated with some of the conversations. And I have been brought in to, you know, as a local influencer to speak to people.

But what I find is that I what I try and do is ask them what the concerns are, address those concerns. But on occasion, there are people who I sadly think are just not going to change their minds. And so rather than get into a row with those people, I just try and say what I think will be most helpful, often for other people to hear, and focus on those where actually there are minds that haven't yet been made up. And the other important thing is there's new evidence coming along all the time. So if somebody, what you don't want to do is put people into a corner to accept that people have a fixed position and they'd have to back down to get out of that fixed position. You don't want that to happen. And so bringing in new data, new evidence, new insights that they hadn't known about previously, hadn't thought about, can be a really powerful way of just unlocking beliefs. Can I give you, I know it's not necessarily your area, but you'll be familiar with it because you've been talking, not rowing with people about it, about fertility so specifically because we're talking on women's hour questions about that what do you

say about that i have heard that um argument again through um friends of my children i've raised it with medical colleagues and um my medical colleagues have said that there just isn't a signal there um that it impacts or harms fertility in women. Yeah, so that's my understanding. With everything, you can never say never. You know, this is a new disease. We're getting new information, evidence as we go along. But to my knowledge, there isn't evidence about that problem at the moment.

I think sometimes what happens is that people notice, you know, changes in menstruation, for example. And once you focus on something and talk about it a lot, things that maybe is to do with natural variation, people then attribute it to vaccination. So when it's looked at systematically over large groups of people, there's no, as far as i'm aware no

signal at the moment of that we are also getting some positive stories in about more and more people coming forward and also exactly as you say uh perhaps people waking up to the risk of long covid and all of those things i just wonder what you make of the carrot and stick approach especially as we go into the winter again it's been been, as I say, nicknamed kebabs for jabs. And I just wonder what actually works in terms of the government level, if I put aside making the provision of jabs available? So I think what you're asking about here is the sort of punishment and rewards. So these are quite different. So, for example, there's mooted about people not being allowed to get into certain venues unless they have been vaccinated. Now, that is not a road to go down until everybody's been offered the vaccination. Because if you go down that road,

when only part of the population has been offered the vaccination, including teenagers, it's very divisive. And what's really important in terms of getting out of this pandemic as soon as we can, is to keep that collective spirit going and not get into divisiveness. Then we've also heard mooted about having discounts on

fast food delivery and cabs. Now, there's a couple of problems with that. One is that these are things that are not at all to do with what we're talking about. At least entry into spaces is about making safe spaces for everybody. It relates, yes. Nothing to do with the behaviour. And one of the things that has been found in general is if you use external rewards that aren't really related to the behaviour, it can actually undermine your what's called intrinsic motivation to do something. And given what we want to do here, is really change hearts and minds for the long term. Because, you know, down the road, there will be booster jabs, etc. These one-off quick fixes to try and push people into it

may not be effective with some people. And for those people who are distrustful, it can actually be counterproductive. It can actually harden people's views against what's happening because they say, well, why are they pushing us into it? So much better to use the giving good accessible information, making it easy and using persuasive arguments than going down the carrot and stick approach. certainly at this point when these other things haven't been done systematically i was going to say susan i think people are um reaching the end of their patience levels but perhaps you may have extended them somewhat this morning if they've already had some of these conversations maybe they'll play this conversation to those individuals and see you staying calm as as a helpful strategy for them to emulate susan mickey thank you very very much for your insights and your time. And tips on persuasiveness this morning, just to say to Alicia, who's got in touch, I work as a vaccinator and I've had conversations with young people about why they don't want the vaccine. The reasons are wide ranging, including needle phobia and worries about how the vaccine has been made so quickly.

I always try and press the benefits to them and to their older family members. So many messages on this. I will come back to them shortly. Keep them coming. What have you done? What's been effective? But let's turn our attention stateside. The once incredibly popular New York Governor Andrew Cuomo's political career hangs in the balance as the pressure for him to resign mounts. He's been accused of sexual misconduct by 11 women and an independent report commissioned by his party, the Democrats, corroborates the stories. Governor Cuomo denies any wrongdoing. And yet friend and political ally, President Biden,

has also called for him to go. If he does, the first female New York governor is likely to be installed in his place. Here's what Andrew Cuomo has said since the report came out. I never touched anyone inappropriately or made inappropriate sexual advances. I am 63 years old. I've lived my entire adult life in public view. That is just not who I am. And that's not who I have ever been. Stephanie Stark worked in his office in 2016 and has separately done research on how sexual harassment accusations impacts on voter behaviour.

We'll speak to her about that in a moment. Stephen Erlanger is the chief diplomatic correspondent in Europe for the New York Times. Stephen, just to tell our listeners and remind our listeners, who is Andrew Cuomo and what does he stand accused of? Well, Andrew Cuomo is a third term New York governor, son of Mario Cuomo, who was also a third term New York governor, a very powerful person in the state Democratic Party, in the National Democratic Party, had been in Bill Clinton's cabinet, and he has been quite popular, but he's had a lot of trouble in the last few months, not just over these allegations of sexual harassment, which is illegal under New York law, but also questions about lying to people about the number of deaths in New York state care homes for the elderly and a few other issues. He's also accused of running a very tense, aggressive office where it was very unpleasant. I'm curious what

Stephanie will say about that. But he's accused by 11 women of varieties of sexual harassment. Began months ago in March and then led to a long investigation by the state attorney general who found these 11 women, some of them named, some of them not. None of them accused him of rape or sleeping with them, but of inappropriate touching, of grabbing their breasts, of making comments that would make them extremely uncomfortable, comments of sexual nature prying into their private lives. And I think he won't survive this. I mean, this is, in this day and age, this is not appropriate behaviour.

And even though he will go, I was just going to say, even though and we'll come back to that as well, what could happen, what might happen. But even though he continues to deny it, you think he may have to go? Well, yes. And, you know, if he doesn't resign, there's an impeachment process which will take several months. There will be court cases brought. It's going to be endless if he doesn't resign. So I just think it's unsustainable. I mean, having read the report, I mean, there's no reason to doubt what these women say happened to them. He says this is just his nature. He's touchy-feely, he's Italian,

he likes to kiss people. You know, I mean, that politics is sometimes hands-on, so to speak. This is what his father did, it's what Bill Clinton did. But this is not the kind of behaviour he's being accused of. He's being accused of sexual harassment. Harassment, which is, of course, very distinct and different. And if he was impeached, he would be the first New York governor removed from office in more than a century. Let me bring in Stephanie at this point. worked in his office I believe for a year or so yep that's right I worked for him in 2016-2017 and I know that you don't have the the experience that we're talking about here of these 11 women but you have spoken publicly before about incidents which would point to a toxic and hostile work environment?

Yeah, you know, when I was there, I was early in my career and I was grateful for the opportunity to work for him. You know, he is the foremost democratic governor in the country. His father, Mario Pomi, is a beloved, you know, it's a beloved family. I believed in him and in his work. And so did so many others that I worked with, of course. So it was painful to experience the ways in which, you know, what we had all previously seen from the outside is great leadership to be in reality, you know, an exercise in really like old school bullying and subsequent toxic clickiness. It wasn't a progressive and inclusive space in which, you know, he speaks and champions in what New York really stands for. You know, the office functions to please the governor's whims, whatever that may be. And when I worked there, you know, there's incredibly highly qualified people that

were just demoralized. There's people coming at that time from the Obama White House, from the Hillary 2016 campaign. And what are you to do when your values align from the outside, but your instinct tells you this environment is toxic? And the subject of moral leadership is really what my research centers on. And it's what the Attorney General's investigation and the impeachment proceedings are all about. I had left work for the governor when Trump was elected to study, as you said, how allegations of sexual assault and harassment impact voters. Which we definitely want to hear about. And I think it's really important because of the difference, perhaps, with the perception of

Democratic and Republican, not least in light of what has gone on and what has been alleged around Trump's presidency. So let's just come to that in one moment. But there is a specific example, a couple of examples that you have raised publicly before, about pretty young women being parachuted into the office from seemingly just meeting Governor Cuomo at parties. Yeah, there was a bizarre kind of snippet to share is, you know, when Hillary lost, the governor wanted, you know, tons of people to be hired from her campaign share is, you know, when Hillary lost, the governor wanted, you know, tons of people to be hired from her campaign. But, you know, of course, that naturally creates a lot of competition internally. And, you know, and maybe that's normal in any kind of office. But so many people were hired that there were not enough desks or resources for some people. So,

you know, there was fights over desks and some people ended up, you know, sitting on the floor and on top of filing cabinets. So people were angry at being treated this way by kind of the inner circle that had existed. Like I said, this could be normal teething process, but problems. But in the middle of those few weeks where the office was, the executive chamber was just really overloaded. I had a desk. There was a there was a space cleared out a desk set up next to me, a computer set up a nameplate with the official state logo on it, all this stuff right next to mine. And my bosses were told by the governor's inner circle that this this woman would be joining

our team. And so they didn't know her background, they hadn't hired her. You know, when we kind of got into a conversation about how she got into this position, she said, I met the governor a couple weeks ago at a gala. She didn't have any experience. I was working in digital communications. She didn't have any background in that, you know, so this was, it was clear that this was a decision by the governor that everyone in the office had to just deal with and figure out how to make sense. And, you know, that does damage in just the process. People quit after just a few weeks because it was clear they were second fiddle to a random whim. And you can't thrive in that environment. So like I said, it's unfortunate because there were people that really wanted to contribute to the work of the foremost Democratic

governor in the US. Yes. Well, I think it's just important to get specific examples when we talk about what can be described and has been described as a toxic workplace. Separately to this, your research has looked at there is a difference it would seem between when Republicans hear about allegations of sexual harassment and whether they change their vote and whether Democrats hear about it, Democratic supporters. What is that difference? Yeah, I had left work for the governor. You know, my interest was leaving after Trump was elected to find out how could women still vote for Trump after all these allegations of sexual harassment and assault against him and after he admitted it, right? So I left the governor's office for London where I did this research and I surveyed American voters with that question.

If you otherwise like the candidate and they're accused of sexual assault and harassment, would you still vote for them? And really what we found is that conservatives who are more likely to be Republicans are prone to rejecting information that will destabilize what they understand about social cohesion. So because of that, they're more likely than Democrats to reason with the allegation. rejecting information that will destabilize what they understand about social cohesion. So because of that, they're more likely than Democrats to reason with the allegation. They'll say either it's because the women are lying or because or they're willing to like overlook the allegation because they think that the candidate is otherwise going to do good things for the community. So they're able to disassociate the allegation from their judgment of the candidate's performance in office. Whereas liberals, who are more likely to be Democrats, are more likely to read the allegation as an abuse of power in a personal relationship

and therefore as a propensity to abuse the power of public office. So because Democrats make that association, they're more likely to not vote for a candidate that has been accused of sexual assault and harassment. Stephanie Stark, thank you very much for that and for your insights working for Governor Cuomo. Stephen Erlinger, if I just come back to you on what is a fascinating insight there, Republicans stand by their man or their woman a bit more, or certainly it seems from this research, if there are sexual harassment allegations versus what happens to voters on the liberal side. Do you think there's different standards in the media about when there are sexual harassment allegations

to do with someone on the Democratic side versus Republican? And do you think this could do great damage to Joe Biden, actually, in the early days of his leadership? I would like to think not. But I mean, particularly American media, particularly television, particularly cable, is so partisan that rules of fairness, which is what we used to understand about journalism, don't seem to matter. I mean, Fox is very much a Republican television station. It does news, of course. a Republican television station.

It does news, of course, it does some very good news, but it does these talk shows that are basically a kind of Trump army, and they're very worried about being outflanked on the right. So they have been very much defensive of Trump when Trump had similar allegations, even worse allegations, right? And in general, you know, more liberal, more straightforward news, I think, has tried to keep a distance and rely on facts.

But there is a generational issue. Yeah, and so that partisanship, just because slightly pushed for time here, it is a big issue. And it's certainly one to remember when we look at the American media. Just finally, I did say that if he goes, he could be replaced

by the first female New York governor. Who's that, just briefly? It's a woman called Kathleen Hochul, who's an Irish Catholic lawyer from Buffalo. She's 62. She has her own constituency. I mean, they don did serve in Congress for a brief time before her district became too Republican. And she has the gravitas and the experience, I think, to be a good governor. And if he's impeached or resigned, as you said, she would be New York's first governor since its beginning. Sounds like a good guest for Woman's Hour. Perhaps we'll be able to welcome her to the airwaves.

Stephanie Stark, Stephen Erlanger, thank you very much for your time. Love Island, of course, one of the biggest dating reality TV shows in the UK and in this season, one contestant became the first disabled person to feature on the programme. 24-year-old Hugo has a condition called club foot, which happens because the Achilles tendon at the back of the ankle is too short. Some voices within the disabled community

argue while his appearance is a start, was a start, there's still a long way to go before real representation. Well, today I'm joined by two women who do speak openly about dating, sex and being disabled. Joy Addo has a podcast where she talks about her life as a blind single mum. And Kelly Gordon is the disability and inclusion lead at the sex toy company Hot Octopus. And I know has a lot to say as well. A warm welcome to you both. Joy, if I could start

with you. How does your condition affect dating and when you're trying to begin a relationship and have a relationship? Well, I would say that it's for me, it's more when I'm like the beginning stages. So when you're speaking to someone and just organising a date, when you have a visual impairment, it's very difficult to kind of find new buildings and new places and and also it's kind of about finding someone who can see you for more than just your disability because when I'm out and about and I'm using my cane I feel like people just see me as a disabled person and nothing more so it's hard to kind of find someone that can see you as more than that. Yeah. And of course, at the same time, there's quite the, it's not boring, but there's the logistics, I imagine. You know, normally if you're going on a first date, perhaps, you know, I say

normally in the sense of, you know, our recognition of that, majority recognition of that is perhaps you'd like to be surprised by where you're going. You know, perhaps you, you you know you might want to be told to just turn up somewhere and then you'll go somewhere else planning I imagine is quite important from your perspective with with limited vision yeah definitely for me like I like to go to places that I am familiar with because even little things like so I get to a date and I don't like the person they're an absolute weirdo I need to be able to know where the doors are to get back out get myself a cab and go home just having that freedom of being able to get up and leave is really important and do you feel that you you have to talk about not being able to see quite early on is it is it part of the conversation definitely so I always put it in my

dating profiles but if I'm online I put it in my dating profiles. But if I'm online, I put it in there, because I don't want to just turn up with my pimp stick in hand and surprise them. I feel like it's more of a protection thing for me. But I do feel like a lot of the time, men say that they're fine with it. But I think when they meet you in person, and they see other people's reactions to me, then I think that's when you can really tell the difference between the ones that actually don't care and the ones that do. Let me bring you Kelly into this Kelly can you tell us about how your disability impacts your life and specifically as we're talking about dating? Yeah I mean I'm probably one of the rare people that I've spoke to that I've actually had no problem dating with my disability.

Just for a bit of background, I'm a full time wheelchair user, an electric wheelchair user. And I have always, from a very young age, been very interested in dating and sex. I'm quite an out there person in terms of my job is literally to develop and talk about sex toys all the time um so I think I'm a probably a different kettle of fish but it doesn't mean that when I started this dating journey as a teen that it wasn't difficult um you know it was um there was a lot of things that I had to sort of deal with internally to get past sort of society's perceptions of disability and dating um and you know it's something that's that's very slowly changing I think um but it's something that still has a long way to go. When you say that you're you're great

about it you're okay about it and obviously you've gone into a line of work that would be a bit odd if you weren't um what does that mean though or what do you wish people knew about being in a wheelchair for those who don't feel as comfortable so not not those who are going on the dates who aren't necessarily disabled but those who are disabled and feel like they need to be able to say things like you know i i want to go on a date with you but i might need to bring someone or if we go on a date together you might need to help me with certain things or if we go away together what have you had to say to people to get them if you like prepared yeah this is this is definitely an interesting one because it's something that I never used to do um and that sort of left me with a big question mark in my head throughout the day or the sexual

experience or whatever it might be um but recently I've been back in the dating world a couple of years ago. And it was something that I thought, you know, I'm going to give it a try. I'm going to be so open about what I actually need. And it was sort of revolutionary for me, just sort of having those conversations about, you know, if we do have casual sex, I'll need your help to get onto the bed. You know, if we obviously go out for a date, it needs to be somewhere accessible. The person most of the time was pretty cool with it. I don't know whether that's just the sort of people that I was speaking with. But I always think it's better to have those conversations and keep communication open

when it comes to obviously dating or when it comes to sex. And what about, you know, I know you also have comes to sex and what about you know I know you also have had to have a conversation about going to the loo yes of course yeah oh um so my partner that I'm with now we actually we had like a super quick relationship in that we met on tinder um I actually fell pregnant really quickly um so we did not have a very traditional courtship at all um but we were going on our first away trip together and I'd always sort of done everything myself up to that point like in in sort of different ways and manage with my PAs like behind the scenes I suppose um so I actually obviously we were going away I had to have that conversation with my partner

um but I just I don't know why but I just couldn't talk about it and we were on the way on this trip I was thinking you know I'll manage um but I said you know I just came out with it because it was playing on my mind so much I said you know you're gonna have to help me onto the toilet at some point right and he was like yeah should we just stop at the services and get it out the way and I was like yeah let's do it so we we stopped at the services. I wish I could remember which one. And we sent all my PA's pictures from the toilet of me having a wee

and him helping me. We were like couples first thing together. So, you know, sometimes it's about making light of those situations as well. Yeah, well, I mean, I think for all the light, there'll also be terrible moments where I'm sure Joy, you can attest to this, where people also just don't say the right thing. What are some of the more difficult things or things that you wish people would never say when dating you with, you know, very impaired vision?

I think the first thing that springs to mind is people often say, what happened to you? Like it was some big, tragic accident. and a lot of the time it's not that like some people are just born with conditions and things happen so I think going into it in that way is never a good look also asking me how do you have sex if you can't see I always say like if you're having sex with just your eyes you're doing it all wrong. Definitely. True. Preach. I think a lot of people, you smiling, I can see you on our video here with a knowing smile. And I think that people though, perhaps also, you know, get nervous and they don't know what to say. So maybe that's also not necessarily, you know, an excuse for it, but those are some of the things that

you're hoping people don't say to you or continue to say to others. Kelly, have you gotten any? I mean, there's the classics for wheelchair users. You know, you can be out and about having a drink and they'll say, don't drink and drive. Or have you got a license for that? And, you know, all those kind of dad jokes that you hear all the time. And, you know, I was actually talking to somebody the other day on my podcast about this. And I said, how do wheelchair users deal with this and she said you just need to know your boundaries and you just need to say that it's not okay and I thought oh my god the British person inside me is

cringing so much right now but it's true why do we accept people saying these things and just kind of laugh it off I don't understand. Is there I was going to say to come back to you, Joy, is there anything that you wanted to add that you think able-bodied people should know about that they don't know? So not just the things not to say, but perhaps, you know, for those who are also looking for a relationship, looking for love and, you know, maybe need some education, because as I mentioned, Love Island perhaps has gone one small step, but there's not that much representation. Yeah, no, I think Love Island is definitely not where I go for for representation. But I would say to able bodied people, just just treat us like you treat everybody else.

Like it's it's absolutely fine. Like there's no need to be nervous I think like you'll find a lot of the time when someone has a disability we know like we we're used to it and we know what what our boundaries are so you as an able-bodied person you don't need to be worried about coming up to us and asking us out like we like casual sex just as much as the next person, allegedly. But I just think, yeah, like just be literally open and just treat us normally. Like it's absolutely fine. Kelly, anything you want to add? I think just to say that if you cut off the disabled community

as part of your area that you go to to look for dates, then you're just, that's it. You're cutting off a massive part of the population and community. And disabled people are interesting, sexy, confident, accomplished. Why would you do that? You know, open your minds and try and get a connection with someone, disabled or not. Do you think that some disabled people also perhaps limit themselves because they don't think that they should date anyone who perhaps doesn't understand the situation that they may be in? Oh, definitely. It goes both ways. And I've said

this to disabled people as well. You know, some disabled people think that they can only date disabled people because of that understanding. But also, you know, I think when I was younger, I saw myself as, you know, being disabled is a struggle and you feel different. So you kind of limiting yourself to people that are the same as you. And I think from both sides of the coin, it's wrong. You should get to know as many people as you can. You know, maybe your soulmate is disabled or maybe they're not. That's just, you know, something that you need to find out going along. Well, you two I could talk to for a very long time indeed,

but I'm really grateful to hear some of your insights. And thank you for being so candid, because, you know, it is a discussion that some people find difficult, not in your line of work, Kelly. And Joy, you're someone who's also chosen to talk about this openly. And there'll be a lot of people,

even if they don't get in touch now, who will be listening and feeling like you've brought something to their lives and perhaps shone a light on something that they hadn't thought about joy addo kelly gordon thank you um messages still coming in i have to say about persuading younger people 3 million under 30 not now talking about 16 and 70 year olds uh 3 million young adults still not vaccinated one here that says I was listening while driving and I understand some of the reasons

for vaccine hesitancy, but I cannot accept waiting for other people to try it out for you as socially responsible. As a collective responsibility here, that is not properly being recognised. Another message here saying from Lindsay, I think needle phobia is being neglected in this conversation.

Maybe we're overthinking this. I'm a nurse and a vaccinator. This is often the reason cited, even if the young person has several tattoos. Could local anaesthetic cream be offered prior to vaccination like we use prior to blood tests in children? So an idea there, not away from persuasion, but a natural change.

Another one here. Try asking a vax refuser, says Jill, if they have had polio or smallpox. If not, do they know why? Simply because of vaccinations. I've had a smallpox vaccination scar. They don't even need that jab now. It's been wiped out because of vaccination. Stop being selfish. Be grateful for the opportunity for protection. So someone who just wants to say exactly how it is there.

And another one here saying if you actually got symptoms which caused issues to your face or to your arms, the queue would be far longer. And another message here, I follow a model on Instagram who has about 90,000 followers. She said she wasn't going to get vaccinated as she'd read it affected fertility. We heard very clearly before, I'll just state again in my role as a public service broadcaster that there is no evidence for that at the moment, but it can never be ruled out as Susan Mickey broadcaster that there is no evidence for that at the moment, but it can never be ruled out, as Susan Mickey said, but there is no evidence for that at the moment. What did we think, she asked. I responded that it was selfish and a bit silly, but that I respected her right to choose. I received an expletive-laden response and then I

was blocked, said Chris. Again, trying to engage. That's what we're talking about as the head of NHS England. The first woman to hold the role encourages us to do so. Keep those messages coming in. But I did promise an insight into the world of Betty Davis, one of the biggest names in Hollywood, of course, nominated for 10 Oscars and an extraordinary career and personal life. And that career, though, spanning almost 60 years, an outspoken and dedicated actress, she often took on roles that her peers rejected for lacking glamour. And she did create some of the most compelling characters in cinema history. This month, the BFI has dedicated a whole season to her

and tonight is hosting a discussion about her style, persona and performances and the impact she had on the Hollywood system. Dr. Lucy Bolton from Queen Mary University of London, a critic and film historian, Pamela Hutchinson are taking part and join us now. Lucy, good morning. If I can start with you, could you tell us about Betty's early life? Yeah, Betty was born in 1908 in Massachusetts. She's always a very proud New Englander and she had quite an unconventional childhood childhood actually she had a very very strong

mother she had a sister her very cold pretty horrible dad who left the family when they were when betty was about when betty was young um and so she was brought up in a very female orientated um household and her mum really was devoted to betty she really prioritized betty and she saw bet Betty as having lots of potential, not necessarily a kind of pushy stage mum, but she did work every hour God sent in order to support Betty to do what she wanted to do, which was to go to drama school and to act on stage, which she did quite successfully until she made the move to Hollywood in 1930.

Let's bring in Pamela at this point. How did she get the attention of Hollywood? Well, she didn't at first, really. When she was at Universal, they didn't know what to do with her. She didn't look like an ingenue and she didn't act like an ingenue. So she had to dye her hair blonde and look like this sort of fake impersonation of someone else. And she had some hideous early experiences there when they weren't interested in her screen test but they were interested in letting her help men screen test so she had this awful afternoon when she had to do 15 or 20 love scenes with 15 or 20 different male actors on one couch and she felt incredibly squashed and incredibly assaulted by it all but

she kept playing away and she took lots of roles. And finally, she took a role where she could let rip. She could act outside of any box that anyone had seen a Hollywood starlet playing. And she could also change her appearance. And that was the film of Human Bondage, where she plays a sort of cockney waitress who turns the tables on Leslie Howard.

And she has a wonderful screaming scene scene which is incredibly enjoyable to watch and she also has some harrowing scenes where she insisted on having the makeup that made her look like she really was suffering from TB and so she went from glamour to horror sort of overnight with her breakthrough. Which was more revolutionary than perhaps we realise now because of how important it was to be beautiful, in inverted commas, and look a certain way. Let's actually hear her voice, Betty Davis, here talking to Sue McGregor on Woman's Hour back in September 1979,

where she admitted to being very self-critical about her work. No, I've never been terribly enamoured of myself. I've never been ever totally satisfied with anything I did, which is good. You better stay that way. My favorite experience on that subject, and I learned it very early, was one night in the theater,

I came home to my mother and said, tonight I just really gave the greatest performance of my life. I was magnificent tonight. And my mother said, I was there. That is the worst performance you've ever given because you were having too much fun doing it. In other words, I'd lost control. Mustn't be that much fun.

I've never forgot that, that she said that to me. You were very close to your mother, weren't you? Oh, my mother was an incredible woman, but she wasn't a stage mother at all. She just worked very hard to give me money to go to school and all that. And I don't think without her belief, it's possible I might not have pursued this. She always had a belief that I would do something unusual.

It's great to hear her voice, Lucy, isn't it? Really, really iconic. About doing things unusually, she got involved with a lawsuit with Warner Brothers, didn't she? A very tumultuous relationship. And she lost it, but she continued to work with them. Is that right? Yeah, I mean, it was quite a complicated

scenario I mean throughout after of human bondage and um throughout the 30s she was getting pretty terrible roles I mean one to be honest one terrible film after another that really didn't give her any scope to explore or develop or demonstrate her talents and ultimately, when it got to about 1936, she did a moonlight flit, moonlit flit, to London, to England, via Canada, to sign another contract with another filmmaker to do a couple more interesting films. Well, Warner Brothers weren't having any of this and they pursued her.

Jack Warner came to London, set papers on her, sued her, took her to court. And what they wanted was an injunction, basically, to stop her breaking her contract. I mean, she was trying to, she was breaking her contract. So they wanted to stop her making any other films. She did not accept that and she fought back. So she said, well, actually, no, I need to make other films

because you're treating me like a slave. You're giving me rubbish to do. I'm completely high bound to your wh whims you can make me do anything and the judge basically it was viewed as this kind of rather rebellious naughty young starlet wanting more money which infuriated her because she said it's not that I don't want more money I want better work anyway she lost the the high court in London gave the injunction and George Arliss, who was like an unofficial mentor to her really told her, go back to Warner Brothers, swallow your pride.

It could work out well for you. So she did. She went back to Warner Brothers who welcomed her with open arms. They didn't make her pay the fees and they did reflect the fact that she wanted to be taken seriously. And they gave her a film, her first film after that, Marked Woman, which is a fair enough role, but I mean, she loved it. And thereafter, it wasn't uniformly great roles, but thereafter she did enter the period of Dark Victory,

now Voyager, I mean, the letter, fantastic series of films between around 1939, 38, 39, 40. So it worked. Her fighting of it worked, but she did actually lose the case. It's quite a way to try and change the system and be taken seriously, isn't it? But I suppose it goes to the lengths

that she took her career, didn't she, Pamela, incredibly seriously and also wasn't afraid to go into television when a lot of people from her background would have turned that down Pamela? Well she just always wanted to work as Lucy said and she was always holding herself to very very high standards she would get involved in all kinds of things I mean at the time that she was making all those really successful films she could have been just this you know glamorous Hollywood star she was founding the Hollywood canteen she was working in the civil rights

movement and she even became the first president of the academy which everyone knows the academy who gave out the Oscars every year she was the first female president and she lasted a few weeks because she came in with all her ideas for what she wanted to do and they said oh no no we just wanted a pretty face really we just wanted and she again, she could have gone along with it, but she didn't. She was all about doing work. She was always about acting and shocking people. She wasn't loved by everyone, was she? And she had a lot of feuds. I mean, the Hollywood greats, Joan Crawford and her, a rivalry that lasted years and was said to be incredibly difficult for certain people to work with.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's really important when we talk about the feud with Joan Crawford, that we remember that often when we talk about creative women, we try to reduce the number of creative women there are for us to talk about. And then when we talk about them, we find lots of ways to reduce the talent that they express, to talk about them as if things happened by accident. So we don't want to bid two women against each other. That said, Joan Crawford and Betty Davis did not like each other. And they were acting at the same studio. They were going for the same parts. The rivalry was on some level practical and some level just because Betty Davis,

well, Joan Crawford just didn't match up to her standards. Yeah, there you go. It seems like her exacting standards were such. Lucy, though, talking about this, there'll be. It seems like her exacting standards were such. Lucy, though, talking about this, there'll be people listening who've never watched a Bette Davis film, I'll obviously get your recommendations in just a moment. But Lucy, her personal life was what? We've heard a lot about her mother. Was she estranged from her daughter? That did happen eventually, yeah. But she had a fairly rocky personal life, quite a lot of trauma and tragedy in it.

Four marriages, none of which were particularly great. Three children. B.D. was her first daughter that she had who went on to write a book that kind of was very frank about Betty Davis's kind of brutality as a mother. It wasn't a sort of Christina Crawford, mommy dearest, complete takedown, which Christina Crawford did of Joan Crawford. It wasn't that bad. But it really upset Betty Davis. And they were estranged. And ultimately, BD was left out of Betty's will. She also adopted a daughter, Margot, and a son, Michael. And I think relationships with Michael, I think, stayed pretty good throughout her life, although he was closer to his father, Gary Merrill. She was very close to her mum. She was upset when her mum died. When her dad died, she basically took a day or two off and didn't go to the funeral. So she wasn't that bothered by that. She was very upset when her sister died. Her sister had a lot of mental health problems in her life.

So Betty was responsible for a lot of people. She did a lot of caring and a lot of propping up and a lot of paying, to be honest, as well. A lot of people dependent on her financially. So she had a very demanding private life, I would say. What's your favourite to watch, Lucy, if you could say to one? For me, it's The Letter. I just love it. It has the best opening scene basically in Hollywood. she is brilliant she manically crochets in a kind of really um sort of devious way and I just I just love it um this is good this is good homework for me I'm going to take this away Pamela oh my favorite has to be uh All About Eve I think the best way to go into All About Eve is to be completely misled about it and

be told that Betty Davis plays a monster because what you really encounter when you meet her Margot Channing is a flesh and blood woman a woman who's every thought invisible on the screen and she's magnificent in it. Thank you very much for those recommendations Pamela Hutchinson, Dr Lucy Bolton and to say that the Betty Davis season is running at the BFI throughout the whole of August and there's a chance to see a restored version of one of Bette Davis's earliest films, now Voyager, on the big screen at selected cinemas UK wide from tomorrow. Going back to our original conversation, Dionne email has to say about younger people who don't want to be vaccinated or haven't been yet.

My daughter contracted COVID very early in February last year before any vaccine was available. It's changed her world. No longer can she run the 35 miles a week, swim, walk or socialise as she once did. The future is unknown. People don't think or care about it unless it affects them or their life. It's for other people.

That's the reason to do it. Di, very powerful message to end our programme on. There was more to say there. Thank you for your company. We'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, I'm Pandora Sykes. And just before you go, I wanted to tell you about a new podcast, Pieces of Britney, my attempt to piece together the life of Britney Spears and the forces that

have forged it. A huge fan. yeah, absolutely. A fan of not just the performer, but the person. I think that a lot of people were rooting for Britney to fail, and there's this sort of assumption of, you know, this is what you wanted, this is what you're going to get. In this eight-part series for BBC Radio 4, I've spoken to cultural thinkers, lawyers, psychologists, and key players in the entertainment industry to get their perspective on Britney's remarkable story and enduring legacy. I used her as an example of somebody who really got what was required to do that kind of work. We're also using drama to help us look behind the headlines and the conflicting accounts to imagine the woman underneath. Join me for Pieces of Britney. Subscribe now like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.