Woman's Hour - Betty Boo, Rana Ayuub, Baroness Helena Kennedy QC

Episode Date: March 11, 2022

She’s been credited with inspiring the likes of the Spice Girls and Madonna – singer and songwriter Betty Boo is back. The platinum success artist made a name for herself in the 1990’s for her unapologetic attitude, and combination of Pop and Hip Hop music. Betty Boo has now released her first solo single in almost three decades. She joins Anita Rani to reflect on her career and musicThere have been elections in India this week and one journalist who’s been covering them is Rana Ayyub who joins us live. She’s an Indian, Muslim journalist who writes for the Washington Post but she’s based in Mumbai. At the moment she’s under extreme pressure because of her work. She's experiencing serious online abuse, so much so that international monitoring groups worry that her life is in danger. She’s also had police charges filed against her. She says it’s because she’s an outspoken critic of the Indian Government and the Indian Prime Minister, Narenda Modi, and they don’t like her shining a light on how the BJP, which is the Hindu ruling party, treats Muslims in the country. This week a misogyny act for Scotland created exclusively for women has been recommended to the Scottish government by Baroness Helena Kennedy QC following a year of Chairing the Misogyny and Criminal Justice in Scotland Working Group. She’s been credited with inspiring the likes of Spice Girls and Madonna – singer and songwriter Betty Boo is back. The platinum success artist made a name for herself in the 1990’s for her unapologetic attitude, and combination of Pop and Hip Hop music. Betty Boo has now released her first solo single in almost three decades. She joins Anita to reflect on her career and music.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Gayl Gordon

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. This podcast is sponsored by Wise, the app for doing things in other currencies. If you're sending or spending money abroad, you should use Wise. You'll have up to 40 currencies in the palm of your hand. Wise gives you the real exchange rate, which means you'll spend less on fees and more of your money gets where you need it to be. Download the WISE app today or visit wise.com. T's and C's apply.

I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts.

Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. We're going to be joined by a pop icon today. And 12-year-old me cannot believe that this day has arrived. After 30 years, Betty Boo is back with a new single. And Betty, a.k.a. Alison Clarkson, will be on the show very soon. Then, who does the DIY in your house? According to a new survey, women are more up for doing the home improvements themselves,

whilst men are more likely to hire someone in to do the job. Well, I've painted walls, put up shelves, wonky shelves, but put shelves up nonetheless. We'll have a DIY expert on, so if you're currently covered in paint, wondering if it is the matte vinyl or emulsion, then send in your questions. You can text 84844 or email via our website or social media is at BBC Woman's Hour. Now, there's wall to wall coverage of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. And we are all well aware of the refugees escaping the country.

Latest figures suggest around 2 million people have left. And many of us, after watching the shocking and distressing scenes of people fleeing for their lives, would like to know what we can do to help. So how many of you are prepared to open up your homes to take in a Ukrainian family, but have a ton of questions to ask before you do so? Well, now is that opportunity. What would you like to know? Could it work is that opportunity. What would you like to know?

Could it work practically for you? And what would you have to do? Send in your questions. Maybe some of you have already taken in refugees in the past. How was that experience? What did it entail? And what were the things that came up that you hadn't even considered? You can text us, of course, the text number 84844. Plus, we discuss misogyny a lot on this programme and how you go about changing something so deeply embedded in our culture. Well, Helena Kennedy QC will be here to tell us why she's recommending a specific Misogyny and Criminal Justice Act for Scotland. And also on the show, she's received 8.5 million abusive online messages. We speak to the journalist, Indian journalist Rana Ayyub, who is currently fearing for her life.

But first, my next guest has had chart success in her teens, a platinum-selling debut album, and has been credited as the inspiration behind the Spice Girls, no less. Betty Boo is back. You might remember the 90s singer-songwriter from classics such as this. I've made mistakes and allowed a fat and ugly thing in my way. Now I'm Sue the Black and I'm the same. I'm no in-between, top of the rank like Pearl and Dean. And if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Ain't got no time for your boo-boos, be the deep boo. Betty Boo just took me. After nearly 30 years, she is back with a new single, which I will play for you in a moment. But let's bring her on to the programme. Alison, welcome. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Oh, hi, Anita. Thank thank you for having me did you see me dancing along to that i mean i've got a feeling most people listening to the radio right now will be doing just the same um why now why

make a comeback now well i um i was approaching the big 50 and0 and I just thought, you know, it's about time I released a record because I've always wanted to. And yeah, so here I am. You thought it was about time after 30 years because you have been very busy in the interim, haven't you? You've been writing, you've written lots of big pop hits for other artists, but that didn't satisfy the itch. Well, yeah, it was a really good experience to do that. And I loved working with artists and I spent a lot of time in Los Angeles working with big writers. And also our family business is a film company,

so I've been producing films and music documentaries and things like that. So I've been really busy in the meantime. But music, actually, it's part of my DNA. And I think what I used to do is, I don't know, it's still really fresh, I think, with the rapping and pop and everything that combines. So should we have a listen to the new single? Okay. This is it. It's called I Can't Wait To Get With You I mean, you've done it again. That is it.

I'm dancing and it feels like the weekend. It is the weekend. It is, isn't it? Gosh, already. I read somewhere that you said that this is the album you should have written 25 years ago. Yeah, I think, well, I came, I stopped completely because I lost my mother and at that time lost both my parents. So I just stopped everything to look after the rest of my family.

And yeah, I just didn't really feel like a pop star anymore. And, yeah, so I just really wanted to get my life back and do that. So being a pop star takes a lot out of you, I think, especially later in age. But, yeah. Yeah, that is the reason you stopped your career, because your mother was diagnosed with cancer. You took time out to look after her and you'd already lost an aunt and your father when you were 17 and you were looking after your grandmother and we talk a lot

on this program about grief and just you know reflecting on that time you know how much of it did you not want it to define who you are yeah I mean I had to How much of it did you not want it to define who you are? Yeah, I mean, I had to do something.

But listen, I just had to look after my family and that's all I cared about at the time. But I took up tennis and that became my thing to help me with my mental health. And I play every day and I have done for the last 25 years or so so um I urge anybody who um who needs something just take up a hobby or a new sport or something because it really does help keep your head on the right way because you were thrust into the spotlight at such a young age. You were 19 when Doing the Do came out. And, you know, in the boom mania, your album hit platinum status.

There's lots of conversations around at the moment about women in the music industry, even within the last five years. And the ownership of material, women's safety, control of image. And you've just mentioned mental health and you took a step back because something major had happened in your life so how do you reflect on that time and what was happening with your own mental health at the time well grief is terrible uh i just remember feeling so it was so painful i mean i'm paying that i hadn't experienced before um and that took quite a lot of time to, you know, to help. I had to try and combat that. I had some therapy, and that helped me.

And still to this day, you know, I use those tools to help me. But, you know, I've got a very nice, happy family life now, and I feel very lucky that I've come through it. So, yeah, I mean, you really do have to work hard at it, I think. Everybody would know that if they suffered as well. And, you know, the career that you were in as a young woman in the music industry, it's all or nothing. It is, yeah.

I mean, especially, I mean, I was full on, I think, with all the outfits and all that sort of stuff and you know I had to um I really didn't feel like that person anymore um so yeah I just now I feel like I can do it it feels it feels right and it's the right time and um here I am I'm I'm very pleased we are that you are here you I also read somewhere that you said that you want to do it now because you feel women in their 50s are invisible yeah I remember watching um you know a tv program on and there was a panel show and lots of women on the panel and one woman said that she just started to feel invisible at 50.

And I thought, oh, my gosh, that's awful, isn't it? Why? Why can't we all just go and do whatever we want to do and just go and fulfil our ambitions? And, you know, there's nothing stopping you. You really can achieve something later in life. And I feel like I had, yeah, part of me, at the back of my mind, I felt like I don't want to be invisible.

I don't want to be, I want to be 80 and still playing tennis. Yes. You know. And even that phrase, later in life, feels strange because 50 just doesn't seem, it's just not old, is it? No, it's not at all. And 50, what 50 50 was previously like now I'm thinking about you know the new sex in the city it's all about women in their 50s compared to someone put this comparison out when that came out that the golden girls were the same age as the women from sex in the city now it's just a completely different world

now and also when you're in your 50s your children might have grown up and left home. So what do you do? Yeah, no, exactly. And it's funny, I looked at a picture of me when I was two, blowing out some candles on the birthday cake. And I was with my nanny, my grandmother. And she actually did look like a nanny. She was dressed that way.

And that's how people used to be. And, you know, it was a sort of a hangover from the war, I guess. But now, you know, you can just look fantastic. I mean, look at Madonna. I mean, she's still rocking it. Look at you. Look at you. Absolutely.

I've got to ask you about this brilliant video I discovered online of you at 17. You'd been to see Public Enemy in Shepherd's Bush and then you you clocked them in mcdonald's on the way home and wrapped for them i mean honestly everyone should google this on youtube just type in betty boo public enemy it comes up tell me about this experience well we i went to um see the big show it was a Def Jam concert with all the big names in rap at the time, which was Public Enemy, LL Cool J, and Beastie Boys, Run DMC, blah, blah, blah. And anyway, so I was walking back home past Shepherd's Bush Green, and there they were in the McDonald's. uh I mean my friends went in went hey right and um we said hello and and they said oh so you guys you rappers and we said yeah sort of we were just rapping in our bedroom at the time really and uh they said do you want to do some rhymes and they started filming us or me

actually mainly um rapping some raps that I'd made up in my bedroom that day and um and there it is on YouTube somebody's uploaded it and it's sort of kind of I guess the beginning of my rap career because you they signed did they invited you to New York after that didn't they yeah we made a record with them through um a label called Music of Life and then yeah we went over there to do a tour and that was sort of I mean I was 17 I mean it's ridiculous really I mean my mum at the time was so unhappy with me. She knew that you were going? Yeah kind of I don't know I can't remember but I left my A-levels and you know I was just I think because I just lost my father I think I was running away to be honest and I was a bit of a rebel I guess but that was a

great experience I would say that was more like like an apprenticeship my apprenticeship into making music and being a performer and they taught lot, actually, because they had such a strong image, even though it was sort of quite militant, I guess. But they definitely, I mean, still to this day, they still do their tours and things when their image is the same. And when you see their image, you know, it's them. So I think that really rubbed off on me where when it came to do my own music that I needed to have a strong um image and look different and um and anyone who wants to be a pop star today I would say you know you know you do have to just stand out and not like be like anyone else was that your your idea for the image for the classic Betty Boo with the short skirt, the little top?

Where did that image come about? Was it something you sat down and thought about? These days, I guess you'd have an army of stylists. Yeah. Well, I was always fascinated with 60s clothes, and I loved the Avengers. I loved Diana Rigg, and I loved Barbarella. I loved the sort of spacey sci-fi stuff and together with um

all the brilliant stuff that was on top of the pops growing up in the 70s like the glam rock um artists with their silver boots and silver you know they just they were just really out there and um I think I just it was just a natural progression. And also I used to go to gay clubs in central London, like Heaven, and a lot of guys that used to dress up as their superheroes. And I used to look at them and take inspiration from them. And I think that's probably how it came about. But I used to have lots of stuff made for me, because it's not stuff you could find in Topshop, for instance.

And then the spy skills were based on you and your look, weren't they? Well, apparently so, yeah. I mean, I worked with Chris Herbert, who was the guy who discovered them. And he said that that's what they were looking for in all five of them. So, I mean, if that's what he said, that's what they were looking for in all five of them. So, I mean, if that's what he said, that's what he said. Yeah, and we know what happened there. Alison, it has been an absolute pleasure to speak to you this morning. I wish you the best of luck with the new single.

I can't wait to be jumping around to it in my kitchen very, very soon. I'll maybe see you live. Nice to speak to you. That would be nice. Thank you. Bye. Best of luck. 84844 is the number to text and do tell me if that got you dancing around wherever you are.

Now, more than 2 million people have now fled Ukraine because of the Russian invasion, according to the United Nations. So far, the UK government has retained controls on entry and has been criticised for taking in about 1,000 refugees so far. But it's expected the government will now allow members of the British public to house Ukrainian refugees as the details of a second visa scheme is set to be announced on Monday. But what are the realities of taking in a refugee?

Joining me on the programme now is Helga McFarlane, a retired journalist based near Aberdeen who's actually had experience of offering an Afghan family shelter last summer after the Taliban took control in Afghanistan, and Louise Calvey, the head of services at Refugee Action. But let's start with Helga. Very good morning, Helga. I understand you offered a house to a family in an empty flat that you own. That's right. We had an empty flat that we'd used as a residential letting property for many years. And I thought, I'm getting on and I'm getting too old for this. Let's sell it. So it was just about to be put on the market when I sat down one

evening and watched the nine o'clock news on BBC and saw the hundreds and thousands of Afghans being evacuated to the UK and I thought I've got something here I can help. And it took three months to get them to you? It did I mean from that point onwards it was an unbelievable amount of hard work and I realised that there were protocols that would have to be gone through. So I immediately approached the local authority to help me. And they were fantastic. They worked tirelessly to make this happen. But every corner, there was a stumbling block because one end of the Home Office had seemingly had no idea what the other end of the home office was doing unfortunately at one point we thought we had it all set up and the

flat was ready to go and the family suddenly got removed out of their hotel and taken to Peterborough and so it was hard so I would say be prepared that it's not possibly going to be an easy process. Well, lots of you are getting in touch with the programme. Somebody's message is saying, thinking of offering my spare room to Ukrainian refugees, what are the home insurance implications? Someone else saying, I've been trying to find out how to provide a home to a Ukrainian family, but there doesn't seem to be any information available. Keep your questions coming in, by the way, 84844.

And thank you if you are messaging in. There doesn't seem to be any information available. Keep your questions coming in, by the way, 84844. And thank you if you are messaging in. Well, hopefully Louise Calvey will be able to answer some of those. Let me bring you in, Louise. What are the government proposing? It's a very good question, Anita. And I would dearly love to be able to answer it. We've been promised some details for the last couple of weeks. That detail is still not available.

We're picking up quite a lot of speculation around it. Until we see the details of that scheme on Monday, it's going to be really difficult to support people that really, really want to help with the situation in Ukraine. And as Helga has just shared, this isn't an easy process. It is very complex. We're talking about some of the world's most vulnerable people. Some of those people are going to be, you know, traumatised.

They're going to be in need of medical support. Some won't. Some will just want to nip out and get a job and get on with their lives. It's really variable. And what we know is that really, really kind, generous people in the UK want to help, and we would love to be able to help them navigate what is often a deeply bureaucratic process. What we do know is that the existing community sponsorship schemes, as Helga's suggested, are bureaucratic.

They take a long time to get off the ground. You have to go through quite considerable approval mechanisms, rightly so. We're talking about vulnerable people. We understand that this scheme will be abridged, that it will be expedited in some fashion. Obviously, the concerns about that are balancing speed with the necessary safeguarding support you're right lots of generous people and lots of them getting in touch with us to the big golden question seems to be sean has messaged in saying i live in cornwall have registered for hosting refugees but i've been declined by two different charities

because i don't live in a city lots of different people asking various questions the golden question how can you volunteer to give shelter to a refugee? It's important to note that sadly, there are several situations of conflict in the world today, Ukraine being one of them. And I completely understand that, you know, the coverage in Ukraine is very visible to us in the UK in terms of media coverage. But right now, there are ongoing situations in Yemen and in other parts of the world. There are facilities right now set up for people that have an interest in supporting refugees fleeing conflict. Organisations like Refugees at Home that run hosting schemes for people going through the asylum system and people that have fallen out of the asylum system and indeed refugees.

And Reset, who are an organisation that exists to facilitate the usual community sponsorship scheme. It's important to note that community sponsorship schemes in the UK up until this date have always existed as a complementary pathway to the mainstream refugee resettlement scheme. And in terms of numbers, on average, community sponsorship supports around 150 people a year, give or take. They are very, very modest numbers. It is a very long process. I think it's disingenuous of the government to be suggesting that a sponsorship scheme for Ukrainians can offer any significant numbers at pace in a safe and sustainable fashion. Do you think there is a difference in the response to wanting to help Ukrainian refugees to the refugee crisis we've seen from Afghanistan or Syria? It's a really good question and it's something that I'm struggling with,

if I'm honest, Anita, in the refugee sector. We see people, we support people every day from all different backgrounds, cultures, heritages, nationalities, different horrific situations. We want to maximise the interest in Ukraine and help people understand that other people experience those things. We've seen a lot of, frankly, racialised rhetoric from media, from politicians, and some of the awful scenes that we've seen at border of racialised people trying to get out of that country. And that's distressing.

But sadly, devastatingly, it isn't surprising. I think our media obviously is covering that conflict because of the nature of it. It's a significant conflict. But the media coverage doesn't extend to other situations of conflict in Yemen and places like that. And that does affect how people form their views. And we all have to accept responsibility for that. I absolutely believe that every single person that's motivated to help Ukrainian refugees would equally be motivated to help other refugees. But they're not as aware because we don't cover that in the way that we ought to.

Well, Helga was motivated to do that. You took in an Afghan family, Helga. Well, let's talk about some of the realities of what it would entail. Lots of people saying they're prepared to open their homes. Once the family came to stay with you, what is it that they need? Like, what were the considerations that you hadn't even thought about that came up? I think the first thing to say is that you don't know until you meet the people

how much support they're going to need. Every one of us reacts differently to these situations. Some people better than others, some people in different ways than others. So I spent a long time beforehand talking to them by email, by phone, to try and gauge how traumatised they were, how much help they wanted, because you don't want to cause them too much because you don't want to cause it them too much you don't want to take over their lives

on the other hand they may need you to be a constant emotional support for them so you have to gauge that correctly and that will be different for every set of families and individuals that come. And so you need time. It's not just a case of opening your door and here's the key.

Absolutely. Yes, you need time. You can't say, well, here's the room. I'm off to work and I'll see you later. I think at the beginning, you have to be very aware that it is a time commitment and it's an emotional commitment as well. Think of what's happening in your own life. And I would never, I'd never want to put anybody off. But when you do see the reports on television, it is easy for your heart to rule your head. And the British people are so kind. And I mean, we were overwhelmed by the support. But you have to really think carefully can I commit to this I'm committed to this Afghan family for the rest of my life they're part of my family now

and that is quite a commitment do they want to work some will want to they've had their whole self-worth taken away so you know you have to see them as individuals and cater to that and be flexible. And Louise there's lots of children of course that will be traveling across with their mothers and education is something that needs to be thought about as well. How much support is offered to families taking in refugees? Again once we see the detail we'll be able to understand that a little better. There's a lot of unanswered questions. I've heard speculation that people are only going to need to commit to support for six months. As Helga's rightly said, that's incredibly ambitious.

And actually, you know, sponsorship is about supporting people in their recovery and rebuilding their lives in the UK. That's not a six-month job. And I really don't understand what planning is going to happen in six months because clearly the situation in Ukraine is not going to be in a state where people can return. And I think in terms of schools, yeah, absolutely. It's finding schools places, registering with GPs. Are they going to be entitled to benefits depending on what visa they come with? How are they going to pay their bills? how are they going to grow their independence?

Families want to take care of themselves. Each family wants the same thing. And it's really important that whatever programme is being announced is thought through, it acknowledges the trauma that people have fled from, and it acknowledges the critical support for hosts in understanding the best position that they can offer their accommodation in and we would say to the government you cannot expect the community to step in to something you're not prepared to do there is no resettlement offer for ukrainians there are no meaningful accessible safe routes for ukrainians and now you're saying to the people of the uk come and solve this problem for us and absolutely they

will step forward but they need to be met in the middle with government there needs to be a very clear pledge to refugee resettlement in the uk and interestingly that's going to be debated again in the commons the house of lords have requested a resettlement pledge to be put into the New Borders Bill and it would be interesting to see where that goes. But again, we're seeing government needing its hand forced on that. And as soon as we know, we will be talking about it on this programme. But very quickly, Helga, last question. How is your family doing now?

They're absolutely fabulous. I can't believe how well they've settled. Their little son has his little group of school friends and already has an Aberdeenian accent. The father of the family, Burhan, has a job which he's doing very well in and his wife's English has come on leaps and bounds. I couldn't be more proud of them. Helga McFarlane and Louise Kelvey, thank you very much for joining me this

morning. A little bit later, we're going to be talking about DIY because apparently women are more up for doing the home improvements than men. Maureen has emailed in to say, my dad was very handy and so used to put up shelves for me and do all the DIY, she says, and then I got married and felt I couldn't ask my dad because I had a husband. However, he wasn't at all inclined or practically minded, so I started to do the DIY. Every room in the house had one or more shelves at one time, but I got fed up with the dusting.

I used to do the decorating, mended a loo once, and took a lot of trips to the plumber's merchants, but I did it. Can you relate? 84844 is the number to text. We will be talking about that. And if you have any questions about DIY, please do message me with them. You can also email the program by going to our website. And our social media is at BBC Woman's Hour. But now, there have been elections in India this week.

And one journalist who's been covering them is Rana Ayyub. She's an Indian Muslim journalist who writes for The Washington Post. And she's based in Mumbai. At the moment, she's under extreme pressure because of her work. She's experiencing serious online abuse, so much so that international monitoring groups worry that her life is in danger. She's also had police charges filed against her.

She says it's because she's an outspoken critic of the Indian government and the Indian Prime Minister, Narendra Modi. And questions about the BJP which is the Hindu ruling party treats and questions the way they treat Muslims in the country. She also has investigated one of India's worst outbreaks of religious violence when over a thousand Muslims were killed in Gujarat in 2002. She claims that the Prime Minister was implicated in that event but a 2008 state inquiry exonerated Narendra Modi over the riots. Well, Rana Ayyub joins me now from Mumbai to tell

me more. Do you feel safe where you are right now, Rana? Well, Anita, that's a question that I've been asking myself for a while. And I don't think that, I mean, no, I don't feel safe to answer your question point blank. I mean, just about a couple of days ago, the International Center for Journalists led by Dr. Julie Passetti and the Sheffield University analyzed eight point five million tweets against me. And most of them were targeted at me and my family and abusive. And they called me a prostitute, a jihadist, an Islamist. And exactly four days ago, the Mumbai police where I stay has arrested four people for sending death and rape threats to me. And these are explicit death threats to me. They also have seemed to have my address. So I don't know how does one feel safe given the circumstances?

I mean, you are getting absolutely the most horrific threats, aren't you? Well, it is. I mean, yeah, I mean, they are not just death threats, but these are highly sexualized, misogynistic threats that kind of, you know, your image is kind of photoshopped with the image of leaders. In 2018, when the UN wrote to the Indian government, it was when I got a message from a BJP leader, somebody who was from the ruling party, where my image was morphed on a porn video, a deep fake,

and that was circulated all over the country. And people would send me messages asking for my rates. So they say one has to pay the price of independent journalism, but the price that I have had to pay has been grossly unjust. And it's an everyday occasion for me. Yeah. You mentioned the word, I've never come across this word before, prostitute, obviously a take on the word prostitute. And that's something specifically used towards you and journalists in India that's right I mean it was used by one of Mr Modi's ministers a couple

of years ago where he coined the term press and prostitutes to come to bring the word prostitutes to in a way discredit women journalists as it is you know when when there's a patriarchal setup you you know they are treated with I mean the worst form of discrediting a woman journalist is cause aspersions on her character and that's exactly what you allude to when you use the word prostitute. So how are you protecting yourself? Honestly it's not the physical protection that really bothers me, Anita. It's more the mental health that actually gets to me because at the end of the day, they do not as much. I mean, it's more about making you doubt your own self. I mean, the last three weeks when another campaign was unleashed against me and my family, where I was on state-enabled news channels 24-7, and there was media standing outside my house,

and there were people in civil clothes asking the kids in the building to identify where do I stay. You just kind of lose hope and lose faith, and you see your family being tormented. Of course, my family has been a stellar support, but you do feel isolated given the way the Indian media has self-censored itself. And there seems to be a lack of solidarity,

which I might have expected. So you don't feel supported by fellow journalists? I do not feel supported by mainstream journalists in India who are not vocal enough. I mean, of course, they will send me text messages

and call me and saying, we're there for you. But when it comes to publicly, you know, expressing themselves against using of the state machinery to target me, I think they have been silent. that that and much of what you're writing is for an American publication, potentially embarrassing the Indian government and the prime minister on a world stage. Do you think that is a big part of the problem? I think that is one of that is that is not just a big part of the problem, but it's also a big safety net for me because I write for international publications and the government knows that the world is watching. It's not just I mean, I got profiled by The New Yorker and The Time and The Atlantic and to write for the global opinions of The Washington Post.

So the government takes it very personally. I mean, the entire attack against me the last one year started when I wrote a cover on The Time magazine about the devastating COVID second wave in India, where I held Modi complicit for it. And ever since this attack on me has started, where I have been called and labelled an international agent who's out to discredit India. So yes, I mean, while that is the reason for the backlash, I do see it as a big support for me, for my physical safety. I mean, you're one of India's best known investigative journalists. And there are some who say that you've made yourself the story and that they don't like that. And what is that like, where you become the story? story. But when you are under relentless attack by the government and its state machinery, when you also happen to be a Muslim that happens to be the most persecuted community in India, then you will talk about your experience as a Muslim. That's a lived experience. And that is

something that journalists across the world have shared to enrich the personal. And at this point of time, when there's absolutely lack of solidarity, I will have to speak up for my own security and my own safety. It's like a lot of my colleagues have literally thrown me under the bus. They would not speak for me, but when the international media speaks for me, they say, oh, she's becoming the story. But unfortunately, that's the only way I get protected. And you do have very credible organisations on your side. The UN in Geneva has

written to the Indian government a number of times saying that they've concerns about a deliberate and sustained campaign of harassment against you by what they call governmental and non-governmental actors. And they say it's intensified because of your advocacy work for the Muslim minority in India. And they're concerned about the numerous threats against your life. It must be reassuring to get their support. It is. I mean, the same people who say that I myself become the story all the time. When the UN gave out a statement to the Indian government, the headlines in the Indian media was not that the UN writes to the Indian government. The headline was that the Indian government lashes out at the UN.

But again, that's a huge support. I'm glad the UN is by my side. And the attacks against you are because you're an investigative journalist. It's because you're a Muslim. It's because you're a woman. So phrases like prostitute and the horrific death threats and rape threats. Is it true that you wrote a letter to be published in case of your death? I did. I did. I left a letter with my brother and a friend of mine just in case something were to happen to me. I wanted the letter to be published across newspapers because that's a legit fear that I have. And that's a legit fear that I had a couple of days ago. And what have you written in the letter?

Sorry? What did you write in the letter? It's painful. It's extremely painful. It's a letter of dejection. It's a letter of hopelessness where I have lost faith in not just the government of the day, but the people in my country and my fellow journalists. And that's to sum up the letter, in case something was to happen to me. And Rana, I also read that your 75-year-old father suggested that you will leave the country. Would you? Would you consider leaving if you're under so much threat? No, I would never. Yes, my 75-year-old father, who's also been made a co-accused in my case, who suffers from dementia, but he does. He's extremely proud of my work and he has suggested

that I leave the country. But the point is, there are a lot of people in the country who place great trust in me. And me leaving the country at this point of time would be a betrayal of their faith in me and my journalism. So that is not an option that I would like to consider. Rana Ayyub, we've run out of time, sadly, but thank you very much for joining me on Woman's Hour this morning. Thank you so much. 84844 is the number to text. Now, this week, a misogyny act for Scotland created exclusively for women has been recommended to the Scottish Government by Baroness Helena Kennedy QC following a year of chairing the Misogyny and Criminal Justice in Scotland Working

Group. A year ago, the group were asked to consider whether there were gaps in existing law and whether adding sex to the Hate crime and public order Scotland Act 2021 would be an effective way of protecting women. But the working group has returned a far more ambitious report that recommends naming explicitly the daily abuses that absolutely degrade women's life through what they describe as a holistic response. Well, Baroness Kennedy joins me in the studio. Very nice to have you here face to face. We talk about how we get to the bottom of misogyny on this programme all the time. So let's get into this. You were tasked with considering the addition of sex as a characteristic to the Hate,

Crime and Public Order Act, but this has gone much further. You've come back with something much broader. It was really a result of the evidence that we heard, which was really shocking. And I think it's very important that particularly women of my generation sort of hear just how things have not changed and in some ways have got worse because of the epidemic nature of the abuse, particularly because social media has disinhibited people. And so a lot of women, like your last piece of work about women receiving online, horrific, misogynistic abuse, threatening to rape, threatening to disfigure, threatening to do all manner of things to them, but really debilitating and humiliating and degrading. So it undermines women's confidence and often means they don't want to take part in

public life and don't want to stand for Parliament, don't want to be journalists, don't want to be leading campaigns. And so it was really hearing that evidence. But also, shortly after we started, Sarah Everard was murdered. And of course, there were the following murders of Sabina Nessa and other women listed yesterday in Parliament. And the extent of that, there's serious abuse, which, of course, everyone denounces, but it has its beginnings in the daily round of stuff that women put up with. And it's often women standing at a bus stop

or being on a bus and some guy trying to chat them up and then when they indicate that they're not interested then being faced with a torrent of abuse and vile and pornographic comment about how they look, what they deserve, what should be done to them and hearing it every single one of the people who came in front of us from organisations but individuals too said something has to be done. So it became a much more demanding project for us. Adding hate as a characteristic so that a judge can, when dealing with an assault or something, enhance his sentencing powers. That's what hate crime legislation does. But this was to say, yes, let's do that for women

where there's misogyny, but we need other things too. A public misogynistic harassment offence. We need a stirring up offence for these incel groups who are putting this torrent of nastiness and hatred of women online. And that we deal with the threats of rape online and offline and disfigurement that women face all the time. I mean, some people listening to that might think, is this going to lead to prosecutions for people wolf-whistling at someone down the street? Yeah, no, we've made it very clear that obviously there are thresholds before you can invoke criminal law.

But of course, women can, the individual bit of wolf-whistling is not what we're talking about here. But if you're a woman going in and out of a building every single day and there is a building site there where you are, references made to your breasts, to your behind, how you look, what they'd like to do to you, you are talking about something different. So how is this going to be a tool for changing the culture of misogyny? Well, the thing is that what I had to struggle with, and I had a core of really fantastic people on this working group, really great women lawyers, but also others. There were men on the group who were, who having heard the evidence, were also moved to feel that there had to be change.

Is that our law starts from a default position now, as if equality existed, you know, and that law should be made for men and women both, and that it should be gender equal. But the reality is men don't experience this stuff. Women aren't actually harassing men at bus stops or in pubs and clubs and in the playground and in student union buildings. And so the real thing was to actually challenge this idea that there can't be law that is specifically for women, because women don't know that there is law that could protect them. And police don't know it and don't use it. If you concentrate minds and police officers have to say, is this coming out of misogyny? And they've had some training around what misogyny looks like. Then of course, there are instances where a shop is robbed and a woman is pushed aside because she's a shop assistant.

That's not misogyny. That would happen if it was a male shop assistant throwing a bottle into a pub because you're being ejected because you're a drunk guy and it hits a woman. That's not misogyny. But what is misogyny is when you start hurtling at women, degrading, humiliating, horrible stuff and threaten women in vicious ways. So the purpose of this is to concentrate the minds on the experience of just over half the population. What is a reality for women?

Are police and prosecutors and other people within the legal system in an informed position to consider whether an offence stems from misogyny? Well, that's one of the pieces of this is that you can't stop with just shifting the law. You have to put some resource into real training. But you have to... It's not good enough. We've tried training judges and training prosecutors and the like. You have to say, first of all, is there misogyny present? And if people have to actually ask themselves that question when they're coming to charging and so on,

you will find the shift, the cultural shift takes place in the institutions. But we have to start talking to our boys about this stuff. You know, as girls from the age of about nine, we're saying to our daughters, be careful. There are dangers out there. There are men out there who are going to harm you. And it's about it's always about the fear of rape for our girl children, the fear of impregnation and so on. So there is something about how we bring up our boys to be respectful of girls, to not be following them in the street and putting them in fear. Just having footsteps behind you can actually make you as a woman feel you have to have your keys in your hand and that you're worried about how you get home. So will you have outlined clear places where you can take someone to court for misogyny with like online abuse? Well you see it's not misogyny

that's the crime it's the behaviours that flow from misogyny. We don't have thought crime in this country and thank God for that but what it is is that people's way of thinking has to be challenged if it turns itself into behaviours that then put women in fear. So how would it work? Well, what you have, the aggravation itself, is about it being placed on an indictment that there was misogyny present here and it's evidenced by the abuse. What one's trying to do is move the dial.

I mean, we're tired of the business of women's behaviour being looked at. You know, why did you go in that dark street? Why were you on your own at 11 o'clock at night? They said, even with Sarah Everard. We've got to shift the dial to the perpetrator. Why was he shouting out things about, you're a great fat cow, nobody'd want to have sex with you? The sort of abuse that we heard in evidence.

And we've got to somehow do something about that. And if judges, if that's present, that there's evidence of that, then, of course, it should be used by judges to enhance their sentencing powers. Would we even be having this conversation if we hadn't had so many high profile murders, but mainly the shock of Sarah Everard being killed by a serving Metropolitan Police officer? Sarah Everard's murder was one of those moments, which I think a bit like the Stephen Lawrence murder, where it starts people having to think more seriously about what's happening in our society.

And we shouldn't deny the fact that social media has had a poisonous effect in the lives of women, while at the same time also having positive things where women have learned about each other's experience that it's not just happening to them. But really it has. It's being used in ways that I think disinhibits what people think they can say. And it brings out a cruelty in people.

But also the pornographic stuff that is out there. You know, that our children, our boys at the age of 11 and 12, up on their iPhone comes degrading images of women. And that's what they imagine intimacy looks like. And it then allows behaviours that we wouldn't have thought were possible only a short while ago. The conversation that's happening in Scotland, very different to what's happening in Westminster, the UK government rejected making misogyny a hate crime. Was that a mistake? I think it was a mistake. I voted for it in the House of Lords. I do feel that on its own, it's not going to make the difference. And that's why this is a holistic package. And I think that Scotland's leading the way on this. And I think other countries are looking at, will look at it. I mean, I think that you're going to find, I had on the, as a sort of advisor there, someone from the United Nations Human Rights Commission, Mona Rushmawi. And so we took an international perspective to and a human rights perspective on this. And so I'm

hoping that this will lead to other jurisdictions reconsidering their position about this, about neutrality of law. It's a fiction. And law is not working for women. And women are saying that very loudly and clearly, we want for women. And women are saying that very loudly and clearly. We want something better. How likely are the Scottish government to act on your recommendations? I have been receiving emails which give me an indication that this is likely to get through the Scottish Parliament. Ruth Davidson, the Conservative, who was the Conservative leader, tweeted positively. Labour is supportive.

The Liberal Democrats are supportive. I don't know about the Green Party. And certainly I think the Scottish Government, who commissioned this piece of independent work, seemed to be responding very positively. So I'm in hope that this will be introduced as an Act of Parliament. It will be Misogyny and Criminal Justice Scotland Act, but I hope that it travels down to England and Wales and other parts of the UK too and beyond. Helena Kennedy, thank you so

much for joining me on Woman's Hour. I'm sure you'll be back to tell us more very soon. Now to DIY. Helena, you do DIY? I'm afraid I'm not very practical in those regards and I'm not married to a man who is either. So it tells you something about our domestic circumstances. That's fine. There's plenty of people listening who do do their own DIY. The first thing someone's messaged in to say, the first thing I bought when I separated from my partner was a drill.

I wanted to be independent. During the lockdown, when work dried out, I fashioned myself as a handywoman. And now I'm also a competent Tyler. Good on you. I live DIY. It's creative and empowering. That's going to be music to the ears of my next guest.

A new survey published today has found that more women than men are prepared to roll up their sleeves and have a go at DIY at home. Well, Jo Bihari has downed her tools. She co-presents the series Make Do Amend on Channel 4 and she's resident DIYer, if that's even the word, on Steph's Packlent. And she's written a number of books, including Girl's Guide to DIY. And she's joining me on the show now to answer your questions. And your questions are coming in. 84844 is the number to text. Very good morning. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Jo.

Were you surprised by the results? More women ready to roll up their sleeves and get stuck in? Actually, I wasn't surprised by the results. I think if this survey had been done 10 years ago, I would have been surprised by the results. But I think there's been a real shift, a kind of sea change in the DIY sphere that women are doing a lot more of this work themselves.

And a lot of that has come through kind of inspiration on social media. There's so many great female DIYers that can showcase themselves and inspire other people on social media. And I think that's been a brilliant change. How long has this shift been happening? I've seen it really strongly, probably in the last five years. But I do think that the kind of general change in women's empowerment and the slow but steady gender bias change that is happening, although in some areas it's slower than others. I think that has been changing over the past kind of 10 years. And I've certainly seen more and more women going into trade roles and on building sites than

I did maybe 15 years ago. So there's more communities for people to join to talk about this sort of stuff. Because when I bought my first flat a million years ago, I went and bought myself a drill and I went to Argos. It shows you how little I know about drills. And for years, my dad just called it the embarrassment because I'd bought something that it was just massive. It was just this massive thing. And my entire body shook when I used it.

So I wasn't quite as good as the person who messaged in. We've had a question, though, come in from a DIY question from Lucy, who says, I'm currently repairing my stairs and front door. I want a really hard wearing paint, so I don't need to do it again for a few years. What should I be using? Ah, classic paint question. Well, actually, in the olden days,

you would have used an oil-based paint for this job, but there aren't any oil-based paints anymore you want to buy a good quality brand paint uh so something that's got a good brand name but actually where you're going to really benefit in this job is not in the paint it's in the prep so as long as you have done all the prep sand until your fingers bleed and make sure you've filled every crack and filled every hole, and that's where the paint adhesion will last. And also make sure you use a primer and an undercoat as well, because again, it allows for that paint to adhere properly, and it stops you having to redo the job in a short period of time.

That is the thing, you see, what you've just explained there, it's you've got to invest some time in DIY. It's not just quick fix, is it? So you can't just go, I'll just give it a lick of paint. You prep, you prime, you dust, you clean. So you've got to make time to do this. It's a commitment. Yeah, it is a commitment.

And I think that's where a lot of people fail because they think, oh, I'll just do a quick job at the weekend and redecorate my living room. And then it looks a bit shabby and it doesn't really last because they haven't put the time and effort in to prep it and these things do take time and the less time you invest the more likely it is that the job isn't going to look great or that you're going to have to do it again soon and then people go well I'm no good at DIY because I tried it and it was rubbish but actually maybe it was because you didn't spend enough time doing all the prep

work in advance. Because we see all these TV shows where they just swan in and do them in 24 hours and think, well, that's easy, a whole house in 24 hours. Now, we've just had a question about painting. But is it just painting we're talking about here or do women take on bigger projects in your experience like plumbing and plastering? I think in recent years, women have taken on a lot more kind of what I would call technical roles, plumbing, plastering, some electrical jobs, a bit of bricklaying. I've seen a lot of that. And a lot of that, I think, is due to the fact that they maybe started out experimenting a little bit with smaller jobs, maybe painting a bedroom, hanging a bit of wallpaper, flipping a bit of furniture. So they started out with those smaller jobs and then got the confidence to tackle the bigger, more technical jobs. Getting some lovely messages in here, Jo. I must say, we've got some very creative DIYers listening here.

Claire says, when my husband died in 2001, leaving me with three young kids, I was the only person who could put up shelves, lay floor tiles. I'm now an art technician and regularly teach our female students how to drill holes in walls and put up shelves. Good on you. And Ms. Varney says says i inherited my dad's toolbox when he died it's been incredibly useful when i moved into my new house and very empowering doing all those things like the greenhouse and fitting a water but no idea what i'm doing gonna do with the angle grinder

though have you ever used an angle grinder joe yeah they're really good fun actually um but yeah make sure you know what you're doing with it before you get started sounds dangerous what's the biggest project you've undertaken um probably a bathroom refit and i think actually as a diy job it's not that difficult as long as it's a like-for-like replacement and you don't have any complicated things like um lead pipes or electric showers or anything like that and you can learn everything on YouTube now. Can you learn how to fit your own bathroom on YouTube as well? You can.

And YouTube is a great resource. Would you recommend it though? Well, what I would say is yes, absolutely. Do your research. Watch all the YouTube videos. Download all the kind of downloads that you can get to give you step-by-step guides. But make sure you have somebody to call if it goes wrong and I think that's a really important thing and that will give you a lot of confidence knowing

that you've got somebody to kind of dig you out of a hole if it does happen to go a bit disastrous. What about the building industry as a whole here we are talking about women doing DIY jobs at home does that reflect the shift in this attitude? Unfortunately not. I think it's under 5% of people in the building industry are female, which is still, they've still got a very, very long way to go. But actually, as a couple of your callers and people have emailed in have said, they have then taken this DIY skill and turned it into a career. You know, there are a lot of handy women out there, a lot of female decorators out there,

and it's a very flexible career for women to go into great for kind of working around child care and things like that so yeah i think there's a slow slow steady increase i think and you know we're definitely flying the flag for it here donna's emailed in she says i'm 55 which fits in with what we were talking about to alice and clarkson basically boo at the beginning about women in their 50s uh going for it she said'm 55, started doing my own DIY after being constantly let down by tradesmen by not turning up or doing a bad job. Massive eye roll from me, I hear you. I thought I can do better than that. So I started tackling everything that needed doing around my home and there's nothing I won't try. I've installed extractor fans, showers, electrical sockets and decorated my whole house,

flooring, wallpapering, plastering, tiling. There's nothing I won't do. I have even started doing jobs for my neighbours. And then she says, perhaps I could have a career. Perhaps she could. No, perhaps about it. She definitely could. I think that's wonderful. And what a great way to start. She's practised at home. She's built her confidence. She's doing jobs for friends and family. Get out there. start earning some money from it. So what got you into it? I think it was like a lot of listeners. It was the frustration of not being able to get my own stuff done by people that I trusted, people that I felt confident coming into my house with. But also my dad kind of raised me to be really independent. And it was a case of make sure you

know how to do it yourself before you get someone else in to do it brilliant joe it's been wonderful speaking to you you've inspired us all to get doing some diy i'm sure this weekend and remember that if you are going to do something that is very technical or needs an expert like gas safety do get a qualified person in um another message to end on when i moved into my new house build, I didn't have any supplies or anyone to help. So I had to teach myself to lay carpets and laminate on YouTube. I did it 100% myself. I'm a single mother and I'm an immigrant. I didn't have a lot of money, so I borrowed from a friend and I did it all myself. Well done, you. Have a lovely weekend. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. All right, here we go, Oti. Five, six, seven, eight.

Dance. It has the power to connect and to entertain. And in a new series for BBC Radio 4 and BBC Sounds, I explore the iconic dancers who have been doing just that. Dance, it really, I think, saved my life. Join me, Oti Mabuse, as I delve into the lives of the innovators and the mall breakers who have changed dance forever. Gene Kelly was this working class guy that I just really connected with that. Ultima Busse's Dancing Legends on Radio 4 and BBC Sounds.

This podcast is sponsored by WISE, the app for doing things in other currencies. If you're sending or spending money abroad, you should use WISE. You'll have up to 40 currencies in the palm of your hand. WISE gives you the real exchange rate, which means you'll spend less on fees and more of your money gets where you need it to be. Download the WISE app is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain.

This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme Peak Danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.