Woman's Hour - Bianca Williams, Sandra Hüller, Living with your parents too long

Episode Date: October 30, 2023

Bianca Williams and her partner, fellow athlete Ricardo dos Santos, were stopped outside their home in London in July 2020. They had their three-month-old baby with them in their car. Both were handcuffed and searched on suspicion of having drugs and weapons. None were found and neither was arrested. A police Misconduct Hearing was held involving the five officers present. Last week that hearing found that two Met officers must be sacked as the stop and search was found to have amounted to gross misconduct - allegations against three other officers were not proven. The two officers have since been dismissed. Bianca joins Krupa Padhy to discuss how she's been affected by the experience.Living at home too long - An Italian court has ruled that a 75-year-old Italian woman can evict her “big baby” sons in their 40s. So how long is too long to live at home? We talk to Journalist Adriana Urbano.Actor Sandra Hüller on her two Oscar nominations for roles in Anatomy of the Fall – where she plays a wife suspected of murdering her husband - and The Zone of Interest where she plays Hedwig Höss, the wife of a Nazi commander. Amina Noor from London was found guilty at the Old Bailey last week of taking a three-year-old British child to Kenya for female genital mutilation in 2006. We talk to Jaswant Narwal the Chief Crown Prosecutor for CPS London North on the wider implications of the case.And Ellen Miller from Refuge, tells Krupa about her concerns for survivors of domestic abuse and stalking now that GP practices across England have been instructed to grant access to patients' medical records through the NHS app and other online portals. Presenter: Krupa Padhy Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Sue Maillot

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Krupa Bharti and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, very good to have you with us. This morning we'll be speaking to the actor who could be about to make Oscars history as the first person to receive a double nomination for the Best Actor award. Sandra Hula stars in The Zone of Interest and Anatomy and both films have already had success at the Cannes Film Festival this year. Sandra is standing by to tell us more. Last week we heard that a woman had been found guilty of taking a three-year-old British

child to Kenya for female genital mutilation. Aminah Noor was the first person to be convicted of assisting a non-UK person to perform FGM. Chief Crown Prosecutor Jeswant Narwal will join us. Also, for most of us, access to our medical records on your smartphones will be something that is welcomed. And as of tomorrow, all surgeries in the country will be contractually obligated to offer this service to patients. But violence against women and girls organisations are concerned and we'll be finding out why. And we'll be talking about the bambuccione, that is Italian for big babies. It's after an Italian woman won a court case to evict her two sons who were in their 40s after they did not contribute and then they refused to fly the nest

so i want to hear from you about your bambucciones when should your adult children leave home has that changed because of challenging economic times maybe it's the norm in your culture to always live with your parents maybe you are happy to have your grown-up children living with you forever or you might be on a mission to get them to move out whatever the reason you can text the program on any of the stories that we are covering that number is 84844 text will be charged at your standard message rate over on twitter and instagram we are on the handle at bbc women's hour you can of course email us through our website and you can now send us a whatsapp message or audio note using the number 03700100444. All of our terms and conditions can be found on our website.

But first, Bianca Williams is the British sprinter who won bronze earlier this year in the 4x100m at the World Athletics Championships in Budapest. And her successes don't end there. She won a gold and silver at the European Championships in 2018apest. And her successes don't end there. She won a gold and silver at the European Championships in 2018 and 2016, and more recently, a gold at the Commonwealth Games held in Birmingham last year. But in recent weeks, it's been an investigation into an incident which happened three years ago that has put her back in the news. Bianca and her partner, fellow athlete Ricardo dos Santos, were stopped outside their home in London in July 2020. They had their three-month-old son with them in the car.

Both were handcuffed and searched on suspicion of having drugs and weapons. Nothing was found and there were no arrests made. A video of the incidents was shared widely online. A police misconduct hearing was held involving the five officers present. And last week, that hearing found that two Met officers must be sacked as the stop and search was found to have amounted to gross misconduct. Allegations against three other officers were not proven. The Metropolitan Police said the family had deserved better and apologised to them for their distress.

Bianca joins me now. Welcome to the programme. Hello. You've had a few days now to reflect on that outcome. How are you feeling? What is your reaction? It's still very much like a bittersweet feeling. It's just, yeah, it's, you know, I'm happy that it was gross misconduct, but there's still more that needs to be done um it was a very traumatic event and still is a traumatic event to me and um yeah I'm just still trying to like comprehend it all and just yeah it's a lot to take in it's a lot it is a lot yeah I can see that yeah yeah I touched on it there in the introduction but for those who haven't seen the footage it's very upsetting you're visibly shaken you're rightly concerned about your baby can you

take us back to what happened um yeah we were just on our way home from training um so Zuri was three months old at the time and um at that in in at that time in 2020, the Olympics was still going to go ahead. So my partner was training to try and make that team. So to go out and exercise, that was just my bit. That was my time to go out and walk around, get some fresh air. But yeah, we finished training, made our way home. And I remember going past Holland Park Station and seeing a TSG van there and I said to Ricardo, like, what's that van?

I've not seen that one before. Or maybe even if I had, I just hadn't paid attention to it. And he said, that was the van that stopped me last night, like not long ago. I was like, oh, wow, like that's so unnecessary. And, you know, continued making our way home and we saw another one and I thought, oh, what a coincidence. And, yeah, we made a turn and literally,

as soon as we made that turn, Ricardo said, yeah, they're going to follow us. So I then looked back and then within seconds, they then made that turn and that's just how it was until we made our stop at home. And with, I don't know, within seconds, they all came out of the car with batons and ready to smash the glass. And it was really scary. You mentioned the TSG van there.

That is the Territorial Support Group, and that's a Met Operations unit which specialises in public orders policing. This isn't the first time that your partner had been stopped. No, not the first time. Can you expand on that? Yeah, so he'd been stopped numerous times. I can't remember the number, but it's numerous times. And he would always call me when he's been stopped and just let me know just in case something happens. So I'm always aware.

But I never really knew, like, maybe I was just a bit like naive to the whole situation that he would call me and I'd be like okay that's fine this was your first experience

of it yeah my first experience I hadn't been you know pulled over before yeah and then for when it happened

and I was with him I just thought oh my god like this is this is madness to then be put in handcuffs to have my son in the car yeah it was you were shaking yeah yeah like I don't like I don't really like oh my God, like this is, this is madness. And then be put in handcuffs, have my son in the car.

Yeah, it was. You were shaking. Yeah, yeah. Like, I don't like, I don't really like watching the video back. I can't watch the video back because it really just brings tears to my eyes because it was like the trauma hasn't left. Yeah. And I want to expand on that as well. When you say the trauma hasn't left you,

I mean, you spoke to the BBC last week and you said that you're always living on edge yeah I feel like I'm always on edge um anxiety when when I'm in the car with Ricardo or just if Ricardo's in the car with Zuri like he's always through the roof I'm always wondering like um are they going to be okay are we going to be okay whenever we've got like a police car driven past I'm always having to look back and I never had to do that before I was never I never cared enough to do that before but now like it's it's like second nature to me it's second nature but do you think with time that feeling might

ever leave you I doubt it I don't think so yeah yeah the hearing found that the two sacked officers lied about smelling cannabis in the car and said that they had breached their professional standards of police behaviour in relation to honesty and integrity. And you've spoken about the police using the same old excuse about smelling cannabis. What makes you say that? We had messages from so many people back in 2020 and saying that, yeah, that's what they said to me or the police have always said that. We've had tweets and people have sent messages saying, yeah, this is a common thing that the police say to men, to black men.

Yeah, it's something that you've heard time and time again. Yeah. Earlier this year, Baroness Dame Louise Casey published a report in the force and said that there was rotten treatment of black people and the protection of women had been, quote thrown out of the window women specifically and the treatment of women specifically what is what is your assessment of the metropolitan police there that there is like institutional racism and misogyny within the within the police system and it's quite scary that we live in a world

where people that are supposed to protect us, we actually don't know if they are going to protect us. That's quite powerful. Yeah. You don't feel protected. Do you know what? If you asked me this three years ago, I would have said, yeah. Now, I don't know.

I don't think so. And you've got a little boy. And in that video, it's clear just how worried you are about him. It's the first thing that comes to your mind, my baby, my baby, you're screaming. You must worry for him. Oh, yeah. Definitely. As a black boy growing up in London, like, bless him,

he has no idea how the world is and how scary the world is. And I fear for him growing up with him and his friends and you know him like going to school on his own or going out to a party and I just I don't know I feel like I'm just gonna have to be his taxi driver until I feel safe I feel like he's safe but I just worry about how it's going to be how the world's going to be when he grows up. Speaking after the panel's verdict the Met's Deputy Assistant Commissioner Matt Ward said he was confident that the Met can and will learn from the experiences that you went through and that they'll work alongside communities to deliver fair and effective stop and search for all

Londoners. That's their statement. Do you believe this will be a learning experience for them? I'd hope so. I'd really hope so. It's going to take a lot for the public to trust the police anyway. And especially after this, it's going to be, you know, a massive question mark to see if the police are really going to, you know, learn from this. You know, I'd hope so. I hope they learn from it.

You're hopeful. I have to so. I hope they learn from it. You're hopeful. I have to be. Yeah. I want to talk about the crowdfunding page that's been set up in support of the two officers who were dismissed following that hearing. And the page reads, every penny will go to support the officers and their families. And it mentions their mortgage payments and bills. And as of this morning, it's exceeded its target of 50 000 it's now at around 130 000 pounds what's your reaction to that um i feel like what i will say is that

everyone has a right to do a crowdfund but in the circumstances it's it's quite shocking, really and truly. The amount of money that's been raised and... Look, I've seen some of the comments saying that they shouldn't have lost their jobs, but they lied. The officers lied at the end of the day, and there has to be a punishment towards that. We can't accept that in the police force. That shouldn't be allowed, so therefore they lost their jobs for that um but it just I don't know I'm still shocked by it because I just feel like specifically the the outcome or the incident or just the whole crowd

funding or the crowdfunding yeah like I'm just like I understand people want to help that's that's that that is fine but the circumstances yeah and that's been the reaction that these offices have had what reaction have you had since that outcome since wednesday since the ruling um um like I'm like I don't know it's a tough one because I'm glad like people can can see that they were lying but it's one where we've gotten so much hate from from the officers now losing their jobs like we're getting blamed for for them losing their jobs when when they lied they were dishonest in what way um people are saying that i had so many comments saying that like it wasn't a racist situation why did they lose their jobs because it was clear that it wasn't like a racist attack.

The comments, the trolling has been crazy. That's horrific. Yeah, we were trolled in 2020. Now it's like 10 times worse. Do you regret almost kind of raising what happened in light of all the hate that you're receiving? No, no, because I feel like we have a voice and we're going to use it. And there are so many people that have been stopped by the police or have been, you know, in situations where the police have been unlawful to them

and haven't been able to speak up or don't have a voice or just don't have a background of where people can support them or this the financials where you can get a lawyer and take it and take it further yeah we are where we are doing this because to help the next person and to help the people behind us because it's going to happen again sadly You had what happened to you back in 2020, clearly traumatic. And now you've had what happened on Wednesday with the ruling and it's clearly impacted you. You're clearly getting the negativity once again. I want to ask about the mental toll this has taken on you because you are an incredibly successful athlete.

How has this impacted you being at the top of your game? When I get to the track, I've really just got to block it out and focus on what I've got to do. And when I get to a competition, I want to be successful. So I've really got to block it out. But it's just when you have your downtime, when you're home, when you're going on Twitter or Instagram or Facebook and you just see the messages, it's like, oh my gosh, again.

I've just really got to block it out because I want to be the best athlete there is out there and I can't do that with having, just keep focusing on the negativity, the negative comments. I can't progress if I keep focusing on that. So I really try and block it out as much as I can. And it's taken up precious time. It's taken up precious time, yeah.

And that must have an impact too. It does, yeah. It's just, you know, Riccardo always says to me, Bianca, just don't bother going on Twitter. Like my coach just says, just don't, just leave it out. But again, it's just hard. You know, you just happen to click on it and then you just see something and it's just like, oh my God.

Yeah, like the comments are just... It clearly sounds like clearly sounds like ricardo you have been a team here has it impacted your relationship it's brought us closer definitely brought us closer um like i feel like we look out for each other um like more now than we did before um and we just want to raise our son in just the best environment that he can like he can be in. And, you know, we always tell him that mommy and daddy love him. Like, we're here for you. You know, we always tell him that you're amazing. And, yeah, we just love to see him happy.

So we'll do anything to make him happy. Yeah, absolutely. What is next for you? You've got Paris in 2024. Is that the ultimate goal? It is definitely the ultimate goal. I went to Rio um but I didn't get to run as a part of the the relay and then I missed out on uh Tokyo due to pregnancy or and

having my son so this this time I really want to be in Paris and I think it'll be fun. A lot of people talk about how having a baby has impacted their careers it sounds like you're you're smashing it you're smashing your personal best having had your baby which is which is brilliant yeah I couldn't believe it um has he been in a massive motivating factor I imagine yeah he's like the best cheerleader he is amazing you know we bring him to the track and he's cheering for everyone who we train with he knows everyone's names and I just feel like seeing him happy seeing him when when he watches me on the TV, it just, it makes me feel like, I feel like a superwoman. I feel incredible.

And this year I felt so much stronger, like mentally and physically, that my confidence in athletics has just like gone to the sky. I just feel incredible. And I don't know where I'd be if it wasn't without Zuri. Like I really don't know where I'd be if it wasn't without Zuri. Like, I really don't know where I'd be because, like, he is just showing me that you are able to continue to have a baby and still progress. Bianca, we're going to end on that wonderfully positive note. Thank you so much for joining me here in the Women's Hour studio and sharing your thoughts. And we wish you all the best for the next steps and hopefully that tremendous success in Paris in 2024.

Thank you for being here on Woman's Hour. Thank you so much. She's been called one of Europe's most versatile and fearless actors. Sandra Hula has now become a front runner for an Oscars nomination alongside Emma Stone and Carey Mulligan. She plays the lead in two films that took the top prizes at Cannes this year. Anatomy of a Fall, where she plays a wife suspected of murdering her husband, and The Zone of Interest, where she plays Heidrich Hoss, the wife of a Nazi commander. Here's Sandra in Anatomy of a Fall. Sometimes a couple is kind of a chaos and everybody is lost,

no? And sometimes we fight together and sometimes we fight alone and sometimes we fight against each other. That happens and I think it's possible that Samuel needed to see things the way you described them, but if I'd been seeing a therapist, he could stand here too and say very ugly things about Samuel, but would those things be true? I'm delighted to have

Sandra on, Woman's Hour. Good to have you with us, Sandra. Hi. Good morning. You have had an amazing year. You've had two films awarded at Cannes and you're now tipped for Oscar nominations. How are you feeling? Oh, I feel good. Thanks for asking.

I feel good. I'm continuing my everyday life. So, yeah, everything's really OK. OK. I mean, these are wonderful achievements and you've got quite a few months coming up. You've actually said that praise is a double-edged sword what do you worry about all right i don't worry about much uh in this uh in this regard it's just um it comes with a lot of work i mean normally you think the work is done already because we've done these films all together and um now another work starts that wasn't necessarily in the plan.

So the plans have to be changed. But it's just a small thing, and it's nothing to really... Yeah, it's not a bad thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's talk about Anatomy of a Faller. Can you talk about your role in that um do you want to know who sandra is yes absolutely she's quite a strong character um yes sandra is a german writer who has been living in london for a few years who met her husband there and then they moved to France, to the French Alps,

where they both continue their writing. He's a writer, too. And, yeah, we see her in the midst of the greatest chaos that has ever come to her life, a big tragedy. Yeah. And so I can't really say something about how she would be without this tense situation because we only have a little window that we can look into. Yeah, yeah. She's certainly a character with a lot of depth. And I read that the director never told you if she was guilty or not. Was that difficult, not knowing the outcome when you're acting? Yeah, in the first place, it was really difficult for me

because I felt that's kind of common sense, that you have to know if your character has done something or hasn't. But I realised very soon that this film is not really about this fact. It's more about the things that everybody projects on her. It's more about the things that I would think about her or that my mother would think about her or that you would think about her. So it was very clear that it would be very important to really be understood in what I'm saying

and to really be believed in what I say. People would believe what I say. So that was something that I could work with. Yeah. It was like you were growing organically in that role. And then in the zone of interest, the other Cannes winner, you play Heidrich Hoss. She's the wife of a Nazi commander. Why did you choose to play the role? I chose to play the role because of Jonathan Glaser, because I really wanted to know how he is working, what his way of working would be like and also all the technical setup that they chose and the place of shooting that they chose, his team and him, were much more interesting than the character itself. So I didn't really choose to play it because I really chose to work with Jonathan.

But you have been praised in the past, Sandra, for playing what some people have called ugly characters. What are the challenges that come with playing such complex characters? And do you have any red lines when it comes to the characters that you play? I think I have a lot of red lines. Also, this was a red line. I never intended to play any Nazi woman in my life. It just wasn't in my interest. I need to work on a little that I have to think about for a long time and that I like when people are sort of mysterious and I have to work a little bit to get close to them.

So you've got to learn about the characters and that's a journey within itself? Yeah, that's what I do. When it comes to your own journey, you don't come from an acting family and you've got quite an interesting background do you tell us more um i don't know if it's so interesting well i have to say i've learned that you've got a qualification in uh being a forklift driver and that's all happened along the way so there's certainly interest in that well my parents are teachers educators if you will and um there was nobody in my family that

had any connection to art except one great great uncle who was playing an instrument and uh being on tour all the time so maybe i'm connected to him but i i have no idea where this where everything where this sort of lifestyle or interest is coming from or the talent or whatever um yeah so it's I'm the only one in my family still even my brother is doing something else uh still the only one who is connected to art yeah yeah but then you moved into theatre actually. Before you went into films, you were working in German theatre. Yes, I went to drama school when I was 17. I was lucky to have a school teacher,

my English and German teacher, who opened up the drama club and I joined because I felt like, okay, maybe this is something that could be interesting for me because before there wasn't so much. Yeah. I wasn't interested in so many things like maybe a normal teenager, I don't know. And then it went on and on and on over several workshops and stuff and then i started studying um yeah and i started studying for theater and i never had any other plans i wanted to be a theater director and uh all the

things that happened after and i think it's continued that way all the things that happened after were just things that happened to me it wasn't something that i went for as things came my way and i had to decide if i wanted to be a part of it or not how long the way did you become a qualified forklift driver i need to know it takes a few weeks and it was part of the of the preparation for a film called In the Isles. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was part of it because we had to drive them in the film. The things you have to do for your roles. The Oscar nominations, they're out in January.

If you were nominated for both films, you're going to make history. How does that make you feel? Right now, from here, when I speak speak from here it makes me laugh because it's it's really unlikely that this thing's going to happen but i have some faith there's a lot of hype around your shows and how well you're doing but if it happens we should talk again i really have no fantasy about it really it's it would be very overwhelming, I guess. Yes. But all the attention you're getting from different markets, America included, does that make you tempted to kind of tap into a US market at all? Well, tempted, I don't know. I was always interested in this sort of work and in this

place of work. But I never, it started before when we did Tony Oatman and nothing really ever happened. So I'm curious if it works out this time. Well, we wish you all the very best, Sandra Hula there. Anatomy of a Fall Will open in cinemas across the UK on Friday, the 10th of November. And The Zone of Interest is out next February. Thanks for being with us here on Woman's Hour.

You may have heard about the 75-year-old Italian woman from the northern city of Pavia, so desperate to make her two sons, aged 40 and 42, finally leave home. She resorted to going to court and she won. The bamboccioni, that's big babies as they're called, they refused to fly the nest. They did not contribute in a country

where most under 35 still live with their parents and a judge has given them until December the 18th to move out. So when should your adult children leave home? Is there a right or wrong age? Has this changed because of various challenging economic ties? And what have you done to get your children to move out? Maybe you love having your children live with you. Maybe it's the cultural norm. Do let us know. Various ways to get in touch at BBC Women's Hour over on social media is one of them.

In the meantime, I'm joined in the studio by Adriana Urbano, a freelance journalist for the BBC World Service. She is British Italian and has spent most of her life in Italy. Thanks for coming in, Adriana. First of all, for those who don't know about this case, tell us about it. Hello, everyone. And yes, indeed. So it is quite normal, dare I say, in Italy to live a long time with your parents. The main reasons are economical, not only cultural. It is hard to be a young person and move out of your home. But what happened in this case is a bit different. So we have a 75-year-old woman in Pavia. That is a town, a small city in northern Italy. Think quite cold in the winter, sort of give you an image of quite a foggy place at this

time of year. And she had been living for many years with her two sons, aged today 40 and 42. Now, at first, after qualifying, the two men struggled to find a job. So they lived with their parents, something that wouldn't really surprise any Italian. But even after finding a job, even after becoming more economically stable, they continued to stay home. And they weren't contributing to the household chores, They weren't contributing to the household expenses. And they were actually making her life harder by leaving a mess, not collaborating and sort of making her life miserable. So she told them, guys, you need to move out. You need to give me my space back. They refused. She went all the way to court. And the judge said, well, it's no longer justified by that.

You guys are here with your mother. There is legislation in Italy that says that even if you're overage, if you are really struggling financially, your family does have some sort of obligation. But the judge looked at the data and said, I'm sorry, this is definitely not your case. You've got till the 18th of December to move out. Adriana, I imagine this is a country first, potentially?

Apparently it's a country second. Oh, a country second. It's been a similar case. Inspired by another mother, potentially. Yeah, yeah. However, the other case in another part of Italy was argued more on the basis of sort of letting law. So it's more of a housing legal dispute.

That's how they solved it. But in this case, they really looked legally at the obligation parents can have towards their grown up children. And it definitely wasn't, they're definitely not part of the millions of young Italians who can't leave, they could leave, they didn't want to leave. Well, let's talk about the millions of young Italians who can't leave. How have they, how have people in Italy reacted to this case specifically? Well, if we have a look at the commentary online, people agree with the mother. People can tell that this isn't a case of, you know, they had no other option but to live with their mum. 40-42 is quite an age, even in Italy.

Now, on average, Italians leave home around 30. Many people have to leave around the age of 35. And that sort of to summarise a complex matter, it's hard to find well paid work, even if you're qualified, even if you have degrees, very unstable contracts, people tend to be on short term contracts that make it harder to get a mortgage or to get a rental agreement in place. So it is very hard to be young. And young in Italy means all the way up to 35. Culturally, we have a different definition of young. Well, I want to ask you that the kind of cultural circumstances within which this is all unfolded. Well, the cultural circumstances

are very much tied to, I think, two factors. On the one hand, you do have a longer tradition of multi-generational family living. If we look at it even from a legal perspective, the welfare system sort of is built thinking mum's going to step in, your mother's going to step in to help you with the children. So this creates loads of difficulties finding a job, being paid well enough, finding adequate childcare support. So there really is a cultural and sort of social aspect there, but it has an economic and legal consequence. When you graduate in Italy,

and we don't have a high percentage of graduates, it's hard to find stable, well-paid labour. Loads of people from southern Italy have to leave southern Italy and move to northern Italy. And we all know there's loads of Italians in London for a reason. We come here because the job prospects are better and we are far more likely to be autonomous here. So there is sort of a, it's a double bind. But what I found in my experience is that when you are young in Italy, you're treated as if you're younger than you are. And it's often a justification not

to give you that autonomy financially. And then that also becomes sort of a vicious circle. But this case is interesting, I have to say, because they were autonomous. It was more of a matter of, I think, taking their mother for granted and treating her as household help. But it certainly emerges a big talking point. This message from Jay says, I believe Western society in particular

has lost valuable support networks by expecting children to just move out. He talks about us having a financial crisis and we've lost the village-style support of communities and that families used to live together generationally and I believe we all need this connection. Is there a similar conversation taking place in Italy, that dynamic of caring

for one another, including elderly parents? Well, it's a good question, because I think it depends where you are in Italy. In southern Italy, and I'm originally from southern Italy, though I grew up in northern Italy, not too far from Pavia. In southern Italy, there is more of a network sort of society. So if you have children and you come from a small village like I do, the kids just play out and there's a grandmother sitting on a bench, keeping an eye on them. And the same happens for elderly people.

So there is definitely a lot of situations in which this is part of being part of a wider community. It's not just exclusively financial. But again, people often don't have a choice. In bigger cities, it's different. But the real question is when, you know, we're at Women's Hour, what happens when you're in these situations? It's usually women that have to step in and take up the burden,

you know, take on the burden of care. So, yeah, but I think that generally we still are quite interconnected, intergenerational society anyway. To bring it back to England and Wales, over the last decade there has been a 700,000 rise in adults living with their parents and young men living with their parents outnumber young women by about three to two. What's the situation in Italy when it comes to the gender difference?

Any idea? We're looking at a similar proportion. So we're looking at women moving out before men. And I've often asked myself why, you know, at the end of the day, being a woman can actually put you at a disadvantage in the workplace. I think that generally, and I don't just talk about Italy, I'm talking about a number of cultures I've interacted with, mainly Italian, French and English. Women are taught to be more independent earlier. Men tend to be more reliant on the women in their lives. And on their mums. On their mums. Absolutely. You have older men, let's say maybe my parents' generation, so in their 60s, that really don't know how to do anything.

There isn't a woman around. And I'm like, this isn't a flattering image. Get your act together. Get a YouTube video out. Find out how to iron those shirts. Don't tell me so proudly you don't know what to do. So, yeah, I think there is also that knockdown, that effect of expecting less from men. And it's a big, big problem when you're a woman dealing with men that act like that. Yeah, yeah. I mentioned the word bambuccione in my opener. I believe it's called quite a bit of controversy.

Yes, it has. Yes, it's who can forget. So bambuccione is a word that means sort of grown up children, overgrown children. It's quite hard to translate, but it's quite derogatory. And it's often used by politicians who don't really want to realise that there is an economic problem going on. You know, people want to leave their parents' homes. People want the independence. They struggle, as I was saying earlier, with what's available money wise. And it caused a massive stir a few years ago. A minister used it to describe youth unemployment. And, well, if it caused a stir all over social media,

in media, big debates about, you know, is it the young people of Italy don't want to grow up or aren't they allowed to grow up? Interesting. What about your situation? You're 29 and you're connected to the Italian community here and back home. What's the conversation taking place there?

Are a lot of your contemporaries living at home? Most of my contemporaries in Italy have to live at home. They just don't make enough money. I have a friend, for example, who is a social worker. She works in schools. She supports disabled children. So she works quite a lot of hours. It's a lot of responsibility.

She does not make enough to move out. She's now living with her partner. It's brand new. She's just moved out. But it's been really hard. And her situation is not unique at all. I have friends who are trained patissiers. They send me pictures of these beautiful cakes. I have no idea how they make them. And yet they live maybe in Sicily. The contracts are three months. They're not paid enough. It's incredible how little you can get. You can get away with paying people in Italy. I think that there's a bigger problem there, which is why that word caused such a stir. So much

anger. It's like, you know, you guys have the power to do something about it and we are stuck. Here, the Italian community living here is independent. It's probably why they live in the UK to do jobs that exist in Italy, but don't give you that level of independence. But when I told my mother about this story, she was like, absolutely, if my children do that, that is the door. And we do have a culture of supporting our children later on in life. So would she be okay with you and your siblings staying at home if you were contributing financially? I think that she probably would. My mother is Italian of origin and grew up in the UK. So she might be perhaps less representative. I think the general sentiment is that if children stay with their parents longer, and they're not a burden, that is okay. As long as the living arrangement works. I feel sometimes parents can be very attached to their children. They don't want to let them grow and grow up and sort of move out.

Yeah, I mean, if people are contributing, it's OK. But for example, it would be unthinkable to pay rent to your parents in Italy. Oh, same in my, I'm of Indian heritage and it would be absolutely unthinkable. Yeah, I mean, I lived with my grandparents for a year in the UK. My grandfather was like, you are not paying anything. I had to do obviously things around the house, money was he would have taken it very personally. It would not have gone down well. Absolutely not.

Fascinating conversation. Thank you also to Henry who's messaging to say I would love to have my eldest son who is 31 years old live with me. My youngest son who's in the Royal Marines has recently been married but I love it when he visits me and I always feel sad when he leaves.

They'll always remain my two boys. Thank you, Henry, for sharing your heartfelt thoughts there. And thank you also to you, Adriana, for sharing yours as well. Adriana Urbano from the BBC World Service joining me here on Women's Hour to talk about that woman,

that mother who managed to take her sons to court successfully and won the case to essentially evict them they're meant to be evicted in december 20 or the end of this year so let's wait and see if that happens thank you so much for having me not a problem do come on again right amin anur from london was found guilty at the old bailey last week of taking a three-year-old British child to Kenya for female genital mutilation in 2006. FGM comprises of all procedures that involve the partial or total removal of the external female genitalia or other injury to the female genital organs for non-medical reasons. That is according to the World Health Organization definition.

Nor is the first person to be convicted of assisting a person who is not from the UK to perform the procedure. And she's only the second person to be found guilty of an offence under FGM laws. It was first made a criminal offence back in 1985. Well, let's speak to Jaswant Narwal, a chief crown prosecutor for CPS London North and National Lead for Honor-Based Abuse, FGM and False Marriage and she joins me on the line now. Good morning to you Jess Wentz. Good morning to you. Good morning. Can you tell me first of all how this case came about? Yes, it came about after some time as a result of some disclosure by the victim in this case to a professional, a teacher in fact. And that teacher, under an obligation under the new laws, required to pass on that disclosure to the investigative authorities, which she did.

And then the police then took over and did the right investigations to find out exactly what had happened. And what did this girl share about what had happened to her? So what she had shared was effectively the medical condition and the state of her genitalia because she underwent a medical examination. The disclosure was made as a result of a kind of strong relationship between the young girl and her teacher and it was made many years after the actual procedure had taken place in Kenya. So it wasn't something which was done immediately because this young girl had gone through the procedure when she was very small. So very complex, very sensitive,

very difficult to understand and I suppose the wider point around this is understanding victims and whether they know they are in fact victims of FGM having lived with a procedure like that, a medical intervention or in this case an unlawful procedure. Yeah there are so many cultural considerations aren't there? This is the first case where the offence was committed abroad. How difficult was it to bring such a case about? Yes it was the first conviction of assisting a woman carrying out this procedure. So if you're a UK citizen, and Amina Noor, as you've said, who was convicted last week, although of Somalian origin, is a UK resident. And as a result of that, the law covers her and covers her because she went over to Kenya and assisted this other woman in Kenya to carry out the procedure. And yes, it can be difficult because we're dealing with different jurisdictions and we're dealing with a number of agencies who are required to work together to establish exactly what took place and over what length of time and who was involved in what, what agreements were made, what the understanding was.

So very difficult to be able to establish a case to say that there is knowledge, awareness and there is a conspiracy to effectively undertake this procedure, which is illegal. And considering what you've just said about some women not seeing themselves as victims, not recognising what has been done to them as a crime, are you hearing of other cases that just don't get this far for this reason, for the reason that you just highlighted or otherwise? Yeah, there's many, many cases of FGM. I think globally the figures around, I think, about 200 million women and girls are subject to FGM, something as high as that. And in this country, there are many cases which we

hear about, but the difficulties are victims coming forward because they don't understand that they are victims. Because often in cases like this, you mentioned culture, there's a shrouding of this in so-called culture, but it's not. That's the understanding. It's often a very common event which happens. So if you're a victim and you know that other young people or other young girls you mix with have gone through this procedure, it's seen as normal. It's seen as the norm. So how do you challenge that?

And often these are crimes which do take place within close-knit communities. And within those close-knit communities, often the cutters or those who carry out the procedures exist within those communities. So there's very little place where young victims can go to make the disclosure or how that how that disclosure comes to the light of the authorities and it's usually when women are either going through childbirth or they have go although they're going through some other medical lawful medical um procedure um that this comes to light and then it's it's important because we have to make sure that we've got the right expertise medically um in the profession to be able to make the assessments of FGM because there are lots of different types of FGM as well. That in itself, there are lots of different definitions and different types of FGM and the World Health Organization has set out four different types and

that's absolutely fine. But the kind of main crux of this is getting the I suppose the confidence of that victim to come forward and be able to talk about something which is very personal very sensitive and not something that they want to speak about especially when it involves close members of the family or the community that in itself can be quite challenging for them. The victim in this case has been given lifelong anonymity and I guess that just speaks to all of what you've just shared about the kind of fear and stigma. Absolutely and it's really important that victims are aware that there is lifelong anonymity and that's why I can't speak about the kind of case in the kind of detail that we'd obviously kind of want to and that's important because these are very kind of personal

matters that the victim is sharing and disclosing not just in a kind of court environment but to other people in law enforcement and to medical professionals. So these cases have to be dealt with very sensitively. It takes a long time to garner that confidence to put together the investigation for authorities to work together, social services, education, medical professionals, law enforcement in order to put the case itself together so it's strong enough to be able to present to a jury. Just to get a bit more context from you, Juswan, how common is it that perhaps a woman, a girl born here is taken abroad to undergo FGM? Yeah, we're finding that's becoming more and more of an issue because FGM is carried out in lots of different parts of the world

and it's carried out for lots of different reasons as well. So we know the practice is predominantly carried out in sub-Saharan Africa and the Arab states, but it's not unknown that it's practiced in certain countries in Asia, Eastern Europe and even Latin America and when the authorities here are clamping down on this type of practice then the practice is carried abroad because there is the opportunity and it's an industry effectively almost and you've got to look to see why that is. And you've got to try and establish and understand why are girls subject and women subject to FGM? And what are the reasons as to kind of why FGM is carried out?

Because it's banned in many countries, about 80 countries which have banned FGM. But usually there's lots of sociological and cultural reasons because FGM is seen as a part of the girls' initiation into womanhood, for example. It's also seen as an intrinsic part of a community, its cultural heritage. And then there's lots of myths as well, which perpetuate about female genitalia. For example, FGM will enhance fertility or it will promote child survival all of that is medically wrong and there's lots of people put forward religious reasons as well although FGM is not endorsed by either Islam, Christianity or any other religious doctrine it's just seen as a reason to try and justify that practice but also FGMs are prerequisites sometimes for marriage and we see this often in communities where women are largely dependent on the economic necessity

and then it's seen as a major driver of the procedure because if you undertake FGM then it's seen as a prerequisite for the right to inherit and it's seen as a major kind of income source as well so there are lots of different reasons such as that as to kind of why they are taken abroad yeah and not here but it is a very it's a huge global phenomena I'm afraid. And just one just before I let you go what do we know about the number of cases that have got to prosecution stage? So you've mentioned already the conviction we had in 2019 where a Ugandan woman was convicted and received 11 years and she carried out FGM in this country. This is a second conviction that we've had and it's the first of assisting somebody abroad to carry out the procedure. So that's two convictions. And we know we've got a case where we've authorised

Nottinghamshire Constabulary now to charge a man with conspiring to commit FGM against a girl. So, look, these are very, very small numbers, so they're not huge. But we do have, and we are aware of FGM POs, which are FGM POs, aware of FGM POs which are female genital mutilation protection orders FGM POs which are put into place where there is a fear or risk of that girl undergoing it so there are now there is now a better understanding of how we address these fears and if there's a threat then FGM POs can be taken out protection orders can be taken

out if you can't get the whole kind of case together but it's a really good step and raise awareness around those orders to stop the full act taking place. Jaswant Narawal we appreciate you coming on. Jaswant is a Chief Crown Prosecutor for CPS London North and the national lead for honour based abuse, FGM and forced marriage. Thank you for joining us here on Women's Hour. Since the 1st of April this year, GP practices across England have been instructed to grant access to patients medical records through the NHS app and other online portals. As of tomorrow, all surgeries in the country are contractually obligated to provide this remote access to patients. But violence against women and girls organisations, including Refuge, Women's Aid and the EVAW and the British Medical Association are concerned for survivors of domestic abuse and stalking.

I'm joined now by Ellen Miller, Interim CEO of Refuge, to explain why. Welcome to Women's Hour, Ellen. Good morning. Lovely to explain why. Welcome to Women's Hour, Ellen. Good morning, lovely to be here. Good morning. What are your concerns around access to medical records being given online? Okay, well, clearly, it's great for many people that they'll be able to see their medical records. I think what concerns us is the way in which this is happening. So we have a manifesto commitment going back to 2015 that for many reasons is far more complicated than just flicking a switch or you would think so because what's

actually happened is that the approach has been taken is one of opting out. So GPs have been told everybody's records need to be piled onto this app. Now, what we're finding with the domestic abuse work that ourselves and many other women's organisations are doing is that the use of technology or rather than misuse of technology is absolutely a weapon that is used by perpetrators of abuse to get into somebody's life, to control them, to control them economically, to control them in terms of identity theft. People say to us, for example, he had all of my apps, all of them were there on his laptop, he could control my Facebook, my bank account, etc. What's really clear to us is that by taking the approach that silently all of your records are going to suddenly turn up on your app, you are opening the door to all of this confidential, sensitive data, which can then be weaponized and used against somebody who is experiencing abuse. So, for example, everybody's case is different. But one example might be

somebody who is in a relationship where their partner is wanting them to have a family together. They know that relationship is wrong. They know this is not responsible. And they may well have gone to their GP and gone on the contraceptive pill. And that might be something that's secret from the perpetrator. Now they will just be able to go on and see all of that there and see that automatically whenever they go on to their NHS app. It's absolutely terrifying the consequences

of this. GPs are being expected to have a look and take off anybody who they think is a victim of abuse. But as per your previous segment, people might not necessarily want to put that label on themselves. Yeah, there's lots to unpick there. First of all, it's important to stress, isn't it, that it's only the date of access, it's only from the date of access that information is available. So it's not going to be historical records going back a year, five years, 10 years, for example. So we're getting reports that actually some GPs are downloading data even as far back as the 1970s. So although there is that option, very busy GP services in some cases are putting all of that information on. So it's all laid out. It's shocking. And we know that some people have

already been made exempt, for example. Some people have been made exempt, but the process and this whole idea of doing an opt out requires your GP to firstly know that you are a victim of domestic abuse. And that is a heavy old label to be bearing. And then to actually take the action and take people out of that. So if women do have the confidence to confide in their GPs and say, I'm utterly terrified about having this access, my partner having this access, what should they do or what do you want medical staff to do? There should be a very quick reaction so if you are concerned the thing you need to do is to contact your GP practice. What we would say

to anybody who is concerned about a relationship that perhaps feels not quite right or a relationship of one of their relatives to very quickly contact the GP, contact the practice and say, you know, this is not OK. I do not want my records there. And it's so frustrating that this is something to the vast majority of people because they don't have medical conditions of any significance. They're not going to be needing this. And yet we've piled everybody's records on rather than just making it an opt in. It is policymaking that has been ignorant to the concerns that have been raised and that puts women and children in a position of potentially immense danger. In terms of making people's devices safer. And again, I would urge any of your listeners to be aware of this. We do have a specific website that you can go to,

which is refugetechsafety.org. And there's lots of advice there about how to secure your devices. Please be aware, this is such a phenomenally huge and growing part of the abuse that is perpetrated on women now. Just to say that the NHS England spokesperson has said that the NHS takes patient safety seriously which is why we have worked with organisations representing victims and survivors of domestic abuse over the last 18 months to develop guidance for GP practices on how to deal with these cases with patients able to decline access. An expert safeguarding group has also been established comprising of a national safeguarding network the iris and women's aid

amongst others to monitor implementation and to ensure any concerns are acted on in the last minute or so i do want to take a step back because you've touched on it there tech devices this is the direction in which access to our records not just medical records all of our records are going and this is a more broadly a much wider concern, I imagine. Yeah, absolutely. And the key principle here is one of consent and the one of privacy and making sure that you have the right to your own data and not data about your contraceptive health, your mental health, etc. That could then be taken and be weaponised. We need to be savvy and we need to think in terms of the impact on women who are disproportionately affected by abuse. And we need to be real about the fact that data is not secure. Thank you so much for joining us. That's Ellen Miller, interim CEO of Refuge here on Women's Hour,

talking about something that is kicking off tomorrow. All surgeries in the country will be obligated to provide remote access to medical records for all patients highlighting her concerns and there are always resources over on the women's hour website should you have any concerns as well and plenty more uh over on uh on women's hour over on our social media pages as well if you want to keep any of our conversations going we're at bbc women's hour on instagram and on twitter but But for now, from myself and the Woman's Hour team, thank you for your company. Thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Woman's Hour over at BBC Sounds. It was about 2.30 in the morning. And every time in that moment of

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