Woman's Hour - Biba exhibition, Pupil behaviour, Australian politician Georgie Purcell, Breaking the cycle

Episode Date: March 28, 2024

Nearly one in five teachers working in England has been hit by a pupil, according to a new BBC commissioned survey of 9,000 teachers. The survey, gathered between February and March this year, also found that 15% of secondary school teachers say they have experienced sexual harassment from a pupil when working at a school. The teacher workforce is predominantly female, 76% of teachers are women. Nuala McGovern is joined by Dr Patrick Roach, General Secretary of teacher’s union NASUWT. It’s 60 years since the first Biba shop opened and the Fashion and Textile Museum in London have just opened a new exhibition: The Biba Story - 1964-1975. On until the 8 September, it explores how the fashion phenomenon blossomed to become the world’s first lifestyle label. Nuala speaks to its founder - Barbara Hulanicki - and the curator of the exhibition - Martin Pel. Australian politician Georgie Purcell is the youngest woman in the parliament of the state of Victoria. She’s also a former stripper who holds degrees in law, and communications and politics. From posting TikToks about animal rights, politics, and beer, to archiving her life achievements with tattoos and sharing photos of herself pole dancing – she is definitely not your average politician. She’s also been a target of almost constant sexist attacks and abuse, which on occasions made her fear for her life. Georgie talks to Nuala about why she's still determined to get more women into politics. In the fourth part of our series, Breaking The Cycle, a boy who was groomed and trafficked by a gang tells his story. He was kicking a football with a mate when a man in a flash car pulled up and befriended them. Soon that 14-year-old was going missing from home and selling drugs from a 'trap' house in a seaside town far away. He describes how isolated and frightened he felt and the sheer relief when it was all over. His 'guide' from a new practice called SHiFT has helped him to understand what happened and how to stay out of trouble. Our reporter Jo Morris met them. Today marks 30 years since the beginning of BBC Radio 5 Live. Once having a reputation for being ‘bloke radio’, many well loved and respected female broadcasters including Naga Munchetty and Rachel Burden have taken over the airways. Nuala hears from presenter and broadcaster Eleanor Oldroyd, who has been at the station from the very beginning, to discuss what has changed for female broadcasters and women’s sport. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Claire Fox

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. We will begin today by looking at a survey commissioned by the BBC that says nearly one in five teachers in England has been hit by a pupil this year. It's a very stark statistic. And if that has been your experience as a teacher, I'd like to hear from you this morning. You can text the programme.

The number is 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour. Or you can email us through our website. If you'd like to send a WhatsApp message or a voice note, that number is 03700 100 444. And schools also come up in our next instalment of the series Breaking the Cycle.

We've been hearing about a project that works to help young people at risk. Today, a teenage boy tells us his story of getting caught up in dealing drugs with an honesty

that may stop you in your tracks. So that is coming up. Also, we'll have the Australian MP, Georgie Purcell. She's going to join us from Melbourne. There was a photo of her that was digitally altered to give her bigger breasts. And the conversations about that

really underscored some of the challenges facing women in politics. So we'll have a conversation with Miss Purcell. And I'd also today like your memories of the British fashion brand Biba. It's celebrating its 60th anniversary. I have the founder, Barbara Hula-Nickey, to bring us back to its heyday in London. Were you wide-eyed when you came to London and saw the Biba Superstore? Well, you can text us 84844 for that. And speaking of birthdays,

Five Live turns 30 years old today. It was often thought of as a station for men, but Eleanor Oldroyd was there from day one and she will be here in the Woman's Hour studio. I'm very much looking forward to speaking to her. But do let us begin with more information on that survey about what's really going on in classrooms around England. The BBC commissioned this survey of 9,000 teachers. It found, as I mentioned, nearly one in five teachers in England

has been hit by a pupil. Now, the findings were gathered between February and March this year. They include 15% of secondary school teachers who said they experienced sexual harassment from a pupil when working at a school. We do know that the teacher workforce is predominantly female. 76% of teachers are women. The Department for Education, they have responded in part saying they've invested 10 million pounds in behavior hubs to support schools and i want to speak to dr patrick roach general secretary of the teachers union nasu wt they represent 300 000 members across at least 25 000 schools in the uk you're very welcome doctor

your reaction this morning to that survey well thanks very much for inviting me in. And, you know, your survey echoes what our members are also telling us. We've also surveyed our members. And actually, this weekend, our annual conference opens where behaviour is one of the top issues for debate, top issue for debate amongst our members, because the reality out there in schools and in classrooms is one in which teachers are routinely subject to verbal abuse, verbal forms of violence, but also physical abuse and violence. You know, that's ranging from backchat in classrooms, to being sworn at, to being spat at, punched, kicked, shoved or indeed headbutted. I mean, we had to take action, legal action on behalf of one of our members who'd been headbutted, seriously injured to the point that he could no longer continue teaching and in order to get a compensation settlement for that member.

Frankly, the situation has become a crisis in our schools, which the government needs to do more to address. And I'll come to what the government says in just a moment, but staying with this point of in the classroom, what do you or your members believe are the factors that are contributing to this increase, as you also call it, of violence? Well, we certainly see, and I think your survey also echoes what our survey was saying, that there's been a significant increase in violent and disruptive behaviour in classrooms since the end of the pandemic. So, you know, whether that is a pandemic effect, I think it requires others to comment on. We are

seeing certainly an increase in children presenting with mental health difficulties since the pandemic and a lack of support, access to support for those pupils. In fact only in the last few weeks the Children's Commissioner for England has also been raising concerns about the absence of effective and timely support for children who are presenting with mental health difficulties. But the realities are pre-pandemic as well as post-pandemic. We're seeing an increase in class sizes, largely driven by underfunding in schools, that actually, if you can't afford to recruit more teachers or more support staff, then class sizes increase, which makes life increasingly difficult for teachers to manage those classrooms. I'm sure if those classrooms are difficult to

begin with or violent in some cases, a larger class size would, of course, increase those difficulties. But a large class size shouldn't inherently mean behaviour that is very difficult to manage. And I want to just read a part of the statement that the Department for Education gave to Women's Hour. They said, no teacher should feel unsafe or face violence in the workplace. We're taking decisive action to improve pupil behaviour. So all schools are calm, safe and supportive environments where pupils and staff can work in safety and are respected. Our £10 million behaviour hubs programme aims to support up to 700 schools over three years to improve behaviour. What do you think of that statement and also the, I suppose, effectiveness of a behaviour hub?

Well, we're, you know, very interested in the behaviour hubs programme. But the reality is we have a system-wide problem affecting as many as 20,000 schools across the country. The government talks about £10 million. It talks about 700 schools. The realities are that we need to scale out significantly more than the government's ambitions currently support. The realities are that, as your survey shows and the NSWT's own research shows, is that we have a system-wide problem, if not a crisis. We need to see greater scaling up from government in order to address the nature of the crisis that we see in our schools. Now, that will mean not only support and extra resources for schools themselves, but extra support and resourcing for agencies that are

working to support schools and to support children and families, because those agencies, we have seen devastating cuts over the course of the last decade, and that isn't helping to resolve the issues that teachers are facing. Let me read a couple of the comments that are coming in. One is from a nursery teacher. She says, she's anonymous. She says she's been a nursery teacher for over 20 years. The level of complex needs coming into schools this year

is nothing I've ever seen. I've never had a class with such needs as I have this year. 15 out of 25 started school in nappies aged three. Five really complex children, non-verbal, unable to feed themselves or communicate on entry in September.

I was bitten badly this year. I found it upsetting and actually upset my own children at home because I love my job, staying anonymous, because I love my job and the teacher I work with and my school. Of course, that's a nursery teacher. So really at the very beginning. Another comment coming in, belligerent, aggressive parents, ill-mannered children routinely leaving class because they don't want to be there. This on top of continual low-level disruption, no redress with the parents. Signs everywhere saying violence will not be tolerated. Instead, teachers tolerate it every day. But I suppose if we're seeing the violence manifest in that way, and you can point fingers at the parents or at the children that are there but there must be something more systemic going on underneath yeah there has to be something more systemic going on underneath because it's not one or two isolated

incidents within our schools and you know those um uh stories that um you know, those stories that, you know, your listeners have relayed to you are the stories that we hear every single day from our members, the length and breadth of the country. Something is going on and that something needs to be tackled at a national level with national intervention. We're going to leave it there, Dr. Patrick Roach. I do want to let our listeners know that we have another instalment coming up of our series Breaking the Cycle. And there we hear about where the school was really the safety net for this young boy, really a teenager who was going off the rail. So we will hear that a little bit later coming up on Women's Hour. Dr. Patrick Roach, thank you very much. But next, we want to turn to a little reminiscing. This is of the glory days of a brand that revolutionised British fashion. It is 60 years since the first Beba shop opened in Abington Road in Kensington in London. And marking that, there is an exhibition at the Fashion and Textile Museum in London. It's called The Beba Story. It's from 1964 to 1975. Because in just over a decade, Biba went from a mail order business to a seven story department store with everything you could

possibly want in it. It was created by Barbara Holoniki, along with her husband, who was known as Fitz. His name was Stephen Fitzsimons. And not only did Biba transform how women access fashion, the experience of trying on the clothes was quite unusual to the cost. And it was also very much a company run by women for women. It even had a creche in one of the shops, can you imagine? Barbara and the curator of the current exhibition,

Martin Pell, joined me a little earlier this week to discuss how really this fashion phenomenon blossomed to become one of the world's first lifestyle labels. And I began with Barbara asking her what she remembers about those early days. It was very tough.

Yeah? It was very tough to be thrown right into the production of clothes. But Fitz and I did it together and we certainly learned very quickly by all the mistakes we made. What do you think was the biggest challenge in those times? Because things, when I read about Bieber, it looks like things happened very fast. Absolutely. Within weeks, I mean, literally every day he went to collect the mail, which was in Oxford Street, which was sacks and sacks of orders. It was it was just beyond.

So this is like the Brigitte Bardot inspired pink gingham dress was produced in 1964. It had this keyhole back, a little matching kerchief. You sold 17,000 of them. What do you think, looking back, was the appeal of that item? Felicity Green, the mirror, commanded

this dress to be designed at 25 shillings, understood the market. This market of 15-year-olds who'd left home. And she was completely in touch with that. I think it sort of hit the right mood, hit the right people,

which was so interesting. Trying to find, I can imagine, the fabric for 17,000 dresses and matching kerchiefs could not have been easier. But let me turn back to the inspiration for Biba. The name is so catchy. Where did it come from? Oh, it's funny. Fitz came and said, do you got a name for it?

I said, no. Yes, well, let's think of something. And I thought, well, it's an abbreviation of my sister's name, which is Lithuanian, and Biba from Biruta. And it had to be feminine and young. And my sister never forgave me for... Barbara, I thought she'd be delighted. No, she said it's everyone.

You know, it was such a successful brand. I mean, one thing if it didn't get off the ground, but instead it became, well, let's talk about what it became, Martin. I mean, for people who weren't around at that time or hanging out in the seven stories of Biba having a great time, like it was kind of a clubby atmosphere from what I read. Tell us a little bit more about its impact and its significance. Well, I think people did change the way that people dressed. People changed people's lives.

I mean, this exhibition, we've got people coming around and just sort of sharing their memories of it. And when we did the exhibition in Brighton, you'd have groups of women that didn't know each other and they'd sort of stand in front of these garments that they'd been able to afford because we sort of can't understand today that at that time affordable fashion didn't really exist.

You used to be sort of taken to a department store and dressed for the season. You didn't buy clothes for that moment and so it transformed the way that people dressed and I think people have hung on to the way that they felt when they wore Viva clothes. And as I said. But also it was freedom to get away from your parents because children had no say. I mean, I know they were 15 year old, but they weren't supposed to know what they're doing.

And everybody left home and went to London and got a job typing, earned money. The big draw to London was the bands and the music and going out at night and just mixing together with one age group. It was very exciting. So that was the swinging 60s in London. And many people have talked about Biba being the first lifestyle brand, which, of course, we're familiar with now. But even selling baked beans? Well, that exploded. Oh, did they? Oh, I didn't hear about that. A few years later.

In a museum. Not at the time, no. With Big Beaver, people were able to go into a store and sort of have that beaver experience. Like, you know, you could literally live, sleep and eat beaver. And also the boys like big beans. You have to look after the boys. The woman gets a wide-brimmed hat and a nice suit and the guy gets a can of beans. What do you remember, Barbara, though, off that time?

I'm thinking if you walked through the doors and seven stories that you have been instrumental in creating, what was that like? It was terrifying because you couldn't tidy it up very quickly so it was always a kind of big chaos of merchandise which they were allowed to touch most stores and shop you always had a assistant who sort of said this is your thing for you and you weren't allowed to rummage among things. Like lots was going on, right? It was kind of the excitement which I read about

getting in there and getting the latest fashion and trying it on that changing rooms were chaotic and great fun with music. It's quite something to think of because I'm trying to think, is there something like that now? What do you think, is there something like that now?

What do you think, Martin? No. No. No, Barbara. It was an experiment and an experience that just was going to happen once. It was all about being indulgent, you know, so you could go into the homeware department and you could have a Beaver bedroom, but you could take your sort of pick of Beaver bedrooms.

You could have it in leopard print. You could have it in all different decor so it was it was massively indulgent and you didn't have to buy something you could just go in and experience it and have a day in beaver and then go home to your ordinary life and it was edited for you because wherever fabrics there was always fab colors for the tights thank you m, Mary Quant. And there was makeup colors. So people knew they didn't have to look at magazines. Just look there and find out what the next step was. Makeup was huge.

Yes, yeah. Did you expect the makeup to be so successful? No, because when we started with one color which was a chocolate color to make it look like sepia and that was tough enough to find and get people to manufacture for you even although you told them i'm paying but it was because essentially these these guys these manufacturers yes just didn't trust you because you were young women in business and you'd go in with these ideas of what makeup could be yeah and they would just poo-poo it because it was just not because they were looking

at the figures the last big sale was horrible dark pink something or other. And they did it. But it was phenomenally successful, the cosmetic. Oh, huge. Three continents within three years. I thought also, reading about the cosmetics aspect of it, that you were the first that was doing it in the UK for black skin. Oh, yes. The foundation. Yes.

Because our colour scheme for all the other bits, the eyes and things, was very strong. But we had lots of girls from the Commonwealth working for us, plus loads and loads of customers, and there was no foundation. It was all too pale. So it was only obvious to do higher colours. You also did a make-up range for men. Yes.

Bieber was very inclusive before it was a thing, you know. Now everyone's, as they should be, keen that everyone is catered to. But back in the day, that wasn't the case. No, go on. So you would do a cosmetics range for black girls. You'd advertise in the gay press press which hadn't been done before and it's not just a tiny little advert these are this is like four page massive advert and obviously newspapers run on their advertising budget so you supported the sort of gay community when people

weren't doing it in the 90s that all these companies were seen as being edgy. But not only gay, the musicians needed sort of more exotic clothes. Yeah. And they always bought all those sequined jackets. But Big Viva was a sort of unofficial hub of that rock scene. Absolutely. How much fun, Barbara, did you have a ball? I did. Exhausting.

No, it was amazing. It was very emotional, you know. It was very exciting. Reading through the history, I felt so sad when Biba closed in 1975 and I know you've gone on to do so many incredible things, which we could also

talk about. Maybe that should be another exhibition. But how was that when it shut? Because it was like this whirlwind roller coaster of Bieber that you'd had for a decade. I was desperate. And then we just went straight to Brazil and started producing there for Fiorite and Cacerelle.

Cacerelle. Cacerelle. How did you feel when it closed? It was terrible. Terrible, terrible, terrible. Terrible time. In fact, the first time I've been down the high street was with Rosie yesterday.

We went down. Oh, really? Down where the store was? Yes, and I mean, it's like there's nothing there on the ground floor. Yes, very sad that it's not there there now but I want to come to what is there and that's the exhibition. What can we expect Martin? Run us through. Well one you're going to be blown away by how fabulous people was. Some of the clothes in the exhibition are 60 years old you know they've kept their colour,

kept their shape and I think you'll be able to understand it was all from one individual. So the exhibition is very much about Barbara and Barbara's vision. I mean, Biba is still with us today. Yes. The Insult at Fraser's, which is a great testament to what Barbara created back in the 60s. And just how amazing the clothes are. Barbara, we talked about what it was like to walk down the street with Biba not there anymore. What's it like to walk through the exhibition?

Oh, that's great. I see. Oh, my God, we should have done this. Take that seam in more than that seam. You see the past. That was Barbara Hulonicki and also Martin Pell. And the Beba story, 1964 to 1975, is on at the Fashion and Textile Museum until the 8th of September. Well, it definitely struck a chord with you. Let me read some of the messages that have come in. The Beba store was like a Hollywood dream store. It was dark and brooding, gold and cool.

I visited it in my youth and remember sitting on one of the sofas pretending to be a model. The reality for me was that the goods were expensive so though I longed for a dress all I bought was one lipstick. Deep purple of course and a black and white square scarf. Another, I went to Biba in the 70s. I sat in the window. I felt like I was in a wonderland. I have

always been fascinated with beaded 20s dresses since that day. I'm sitting in Berg Island Hotel as I speak with my large collection of restored beaded dresses. Thank you, Barbara, for being my inspiration. So many messages that are coming in. I like this one as well. I visited as a sixth former. I felt I'd entered another world.

I could only afford a pair of tights, which I still have unopened in the black packaging 40 years later. Your messages are also coming in on social media about attacks on teachers. There's one here. My husband, a teacher at a special school, is off work with complex PTSD following numerous verbal and physical assaults in school. He's in secondary mental health care, unlikely to return to school. It's affected the whole family. And I shake as I type this. I'm so sorry about that.

Thank you for sharing your story with us, Anonymous, who got in touch. I want to turn next to Australia. My next guest is the youngest woman in the Parliament in the state of Victoria, in Australia. And from posting TikToks about animal rights, politics, beer,

she's archiving her latest life achievements with tattoos. She has shared photos of herself pole dancing. Her name is Georgie Purcell. She's not your average politician, but she has also been the target of almost constant online sexist attacks and abuse. On

occasions, it's made her fear for her life. And you might remember, Miss Purcell, because earlier this year, a local news channel in Melbourne digitally altered a photo of her, giving her larger breasts and also putting her in more revealing clothing. Channel 9 later apologised for the edits. But the whole episode then opened a debate about how women are treated in politics.

Georgie, welcome to the programme and thank you for staying up late for us, probably getting to after nine o'clock in Melbourne. Today, thanks for having me on. It's no problem at all. So how have things been since that photo edit? I mentioned that it's opened a conversation, but it's more about women in the media. It's really about some of the challenges that female politicians have to face. Yeah, I was completely overwhelmed by the response. And I think the first thing that I would say is I probably didn't realise just how horrific it was to have my body photoshopped until I went public with it. And I saw the response. And I think that's a really good example of how hardened

and desensitised you get and you become as a woman in politics because you deal with situations like this all of the time, but it certainly spurred a conversation, not just with women in public life but women in everyday life and the threat that image altering poses to all of us. I just want to read the apology that News 9 gave to you, Georgie. Nine News Melbourne boss Hugh Nalen said he unreservedly apologised to Miss Purcell for what he described as the graphic error. He says, as is common practice, the image was resized to fit our specs.

During that process, the automation by Photoshop created an image that was not consistent with the original. This did not meet the high editorial standards we have. Adobe, instead of which produces Photoshop, said any changes to this image would have required human intervention and approval. So a war of words there. But it basically was a much more sexualized image

that was put out of you instead of the photo that should have been there originally. And what was the reaction to that photo? Did you get support or was it backlash? Yeah, so of course, for those who haven't seen the photo, I was given larger breasts and my dress was turned into a two-piece and I actually noticed initially that it wasn't the original photo because I had these like chiseled abs that I definitely don't have but my stomach's heavily tattooed and the skin was bare so I pulled up the original and put them side by side and I realized that it had quite significant alteration and when I posted it online, the response was overwhelming. I mean,

obviously, it's gone international. That's why I'm here speaking with you all. But I received an outpouring of support. But with it, again, an absolute pylon of, you know, misogynistic and sexist abuse online, which has become a real feature of my life in politics. And how do you manage that? Because, you know, we hear about a lot of politicians that are concerned about that abuse and the fear, of course, of it going into your day-to-day life as you interact with people as well. Do you get any protection? And how bad has it got, if you don't mind me asking?

Yeah, it's quite significant. There's been a big conversation around making our parliament safer places for women around the world, and Australia is no different. We've had some pretty severe incidences in our parliament houses, and I think we have done some work to make them safer buildings. The thing that terrifies me is my biggest threat, it walks around with me every day. It's in my handbag or it's in my pocket and that's my mobile phone. And it's terrifying to know that

our laws don't really protect us from what people say to us online. Gendered violence isn't a crime unless it's a very specific threat. And I do report things. I do have a wonderful security team that looks after me. And the parliament here does great work knowing that I have become a target. But I do fear it's only a matter of time until that escalates. And I know that there have been other female members of parliament that have had real life confrontations and public confrontations. And it shouldn't get to that point, right? We should be safe everywhere we go, just as our male counterparts are. Is there anything you feel that could be done to protect you? Yeah, we need to strengthen our anti-vilification laws. And that's something

we've been talking about here in Victoria. We have laws that protect people of certain descriptors and of certain identities. We've been speaking about protecting women from this online abuse that only seems to continue to grow. People are emboldened by being anonymous online and expressing their views about someone in a way that they don't realise has significant harm. Just because I'm in public life does not make me public property. And a lot of men fail to realise that. And while I have become, I guess, used to dealing with this, it shouldn't be the case. And the reality is people watch what happens to me and they might want to enter public life. They might be a young woman that wants to go into politics. And my biggest fear is they will see the way that I'm treated and be deterred. And that is fundamentally the worst

thing for democracy, because then we don't have a diversity of voices or a parliament that truly reflects society. So that is precisely why I continue to call it out and will continue to until it changes. And everything that I looked at, you know, you wore a dress covered with words of hate that you received while doing your job on International Women's Day. It was like brain dead bimbo, tatted up trash bag. There was an awful lot to do with gender, with sexuality. And I know you came across this also from work you did when you were younger, when you were 19. you were a stripper. You put that now as part of your bio, along with being a vegan animal activist, along with having numerous degrees in law and politics and communications and also being the youngest member of parliament in Victoria State. And I'm wondering how you see that,

because it's really been this trajectory of people trying to shame you, I think I would say. Yeah, that's right. I think we have done a lot of work to welcome women into politics. The parliament that I sit in actually now has equal amounts of men and women, and that's fantastic. But still only a certain type of woman is accepted into public life and I'm certainly pushing up against that. I'm trying to change the narrative and change what a politician is and what a politician looks like and what they might have done with their past because again we don't have

a good functioning you know parliament or a good functioning democracy unless we're representing everyone and I represent a certain constituency and I receive a lot of support for that from them. But it certainly challenges people that I am going in there truly and authentically as myself and not hiding parts of myself like so many women in politics are unfortunately forced to do in order to rise up in their parties and get elected. I'm looking at you right now. I can see in your hands some very colourful tattoos on your fingers and I know you have more because as I looked into your profile yesterday, Georgie, but with that, I know that you suffered from PTSD earlier when your job as a stripper, as a topless waitress when you were 19, putting yourself through college, when that was revealed or exposed.

This is before you got into politics. And I'm just wondering, how did you manage that mentally and to be able to be resilient enough to put yourself into a place that is known to be so brutal, that is the world of politics? Yeah, so to answer your first question, how did I manage mentally? I didn't. And I really made that clear because I suffered tremendously through that period in my life. And I could not even go to university, let alone step foot in the Victorian Parliament and speak in front of all of my colleagues. It was a really, really long journey to get there. And I spent many years reflecting on the fact that I was going into my new workplaces and, you know, being a professional and hiding this part of my past because my biggest fear was that my colleagues would find out about it just like my university peers did and I actually spoke to a great friend of mine who is was a politician and she was the first ever sex worker to get elected to any parliament around the world and I told her what I was bearing down and she said to me when I'm when I ready, I should tell my story because it will be the biggest, you know,

most fundamental form of healing for me. So I somehow got some bravery and I did. And I was just working as a political staffer then. And something shifted in me then. It was like taking back my power and owning my story and realising that what happened to me when I was at university wasn't shameful for me, it was shameful by the people who did it to me. And that's exactly why I've made it part of my story in politics, because the sad reality is, if I don't make it something that I'm proud of, and something that I'm not ashamed to share, someone will use it against me. And again, that deters women, particularly unique women or different women from wanting to do this as well. And but I certainly wasn't in the place that I am now where I own it and I'm proud of it and I'm not afraid to share it.

And I hope that other women who have experienced the same thing because it's not a unique experience will get there as well. Georgie Purcell is not your average politician. She is from the Australian state of Victoria. Thank you so much. And also, basically, the work that she did as a stripper, as a topless waitress, was shared on social media without her consent. And so she is now, however, telling her story. Thank you for joining us on Woman's Hour. Thanks for having me. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories

I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. I want to turn next to our series, Breaking the Cycle. Maybe you've been listening all week. This is about a new approach to helping young people at risk of going off the rails.

The project is called Shift. There are skilled professionals called guides who work with six young people each over an 18-month period and look for what they call the hook to help them change their lives. There are currently four Shift practices.

Four more are on the way. Over the first year of a new practice in Greater Manchester, our reporter Jo Morris met some of the staff, young people and parents involved. Yesterday, we heard from the mum of a young man who got involved with county lines. She wasn't familiar with that term, and if you're not, it's a form of criminal exploitation where children and young people are groomed into drug dealing. Today I'm sat in that mum's living room with shift guide Eva and the young man to hear his experience of being groomed in traffic to a trap house in a seaside town where he cooked and sold drugs.

He's tall, friendly and wearing a kerb link chain. But I'm most struck by how young he seems, a kid in a man's body. What difference did it make when he became part of Shift? It's nice to know people care, though, isn't it? That's what it is. It is nice to know there is people out there that care, who will help you. I was going through all of that and I was on my own.

Because obviously I could have got help from my mum, but if I went in the living room and said, Mum, look, this is what I've been doing, she would have just hit the roof about it because she wouldn't have known what to do about it and it would have stressed her out, it would have stressed me out and it just wouldn't have been a good place for any of us. See, the thing with my mum is, yeah, she's a typical mum. I could fall off my bike and graze my knee

and I'll get looked after for a whole week. I'll get everything done for me for the whole week because that's what she's like. She's a bit too caring at times. So I didn't want to worry her. Would your mum have known what county loans were? I don't think she did. Do you think Eva understands what it is? Yeah, but she's a professional and she gets trained to understand what it is. We've heard in other episodes, exclusion from school or being absent from school are big indicators of risk. This boy was one step away from a pupil referral unit or proof.

That's when the real trouble began. So I was in mainstream education and this was during the end of my mainstream education I was bouncing around school to school. They kicked me out of one school, and it was like, it was a school, and there were six pupils, and they told me and my mum, this is the first step before a pro, this school will be the best school for you. And that's how I got involved with it,

because there was a kid there, and I made quite good mates with him, and we used to go to his house every day after school, because we both walked the same way home. One day we was out playing football. It was so innocent as me and my mate kicking a ball around on a park. That's how I started getting groomed. We wasn't doing anything criminal.

We wasn't doing anything wrong. And then a man pulls up in an expensive car, and the boys are vulnerable to what he offers. Then for, like, two weeks, he was a bit of... He'd come pick us up, he'd take us out for food, you know, he'd come pick us up in his nice big flash car, take us out for food, do all stuff like that with us, give us free weed, just stuff like that, you know what I mean, just stuff that makes you think he's a nice person. What did you think, can you remember what you thought about him at the time? I used to think he was sick. Obviously I thought he was sick, you know, he's a nice person. What did you think? Can you remember what you thought about him at the time? I used to think he was sick.

Obviously I thought he was sick. You know, he's coming down, letting me drive his car that can go 160 miles an hour, buying me food, giving me free weed. That's the nicest guy I've ever met. I absolutely loved him. Then two weeks later, it turned from here you are, here's all this stuff,

to do you want to make yourself some money? I was like, right. He's like, you can make yourself £300 a day just to sit in a house with me. £300 a day and your food gets paid for. So I just thought, £300 a day to sit in a house? Come on, who's going to say no to that? So I'd done it. Little did I know I got there and he had me cooking crack

and selling crack and heroin. So straight away as soon as you got there you ended up... As soon as you get there you walk through the door someone sat there waiting for you. They take you to the kitchen you put a pair of gloves on

and one of those coronavirus masks teach you what to do. They teach you how to turn the cocaine into the crack and weigh it all out and bag it all out. And then they teach you all the lingo about it so when people ring you, they're telling you what they want so you know the right money and this and that.

And then once you've learnt it, he'll sit there with you for like two hours, he'll teach you. Once you've learnt it, he'll just leave and there you are in a random house on your own at 15 years old, 14, 15 years old. It was quite scary because it was just... You kind of just get dropped into it.

And then he rings you and he says his exact words were, there's no way to really prepare you for this, you've just got to go and do it. There was a million and one different things going through my mind. I was thinking, oh, yeah, this is sick, I'll be making money and this and that. And then on the other side, I was like, if I get arrested, now I'm going to jail. Police come through this front door and I'm the only one sat here with a bunch of class A drugs and money and a drug phone.

It's falling on my head. If anything goes wrong, who am I really going to call? And I also knew it was quite dangerous with all the violence that was going on it's non-stop fighting I mean there was two times where I got chased with a machete what did you tell your mum and dad about where you were going and what you were doing at first I was just going up for a weekend you know two three days at first it was just I'm just going staying at my mate's house mum this and that and then when we and then when days turned into weeks and weeks turned into months, it was like, yeah, there wasn't anything I could say.

Because what's an excuse to not going in school, not coming home for a week? There wasn't anything. So I thought, I'll just turn my phone off. So you just go missing? Yeah, I just went missing because it was better that than I have to sit there and make up excuses that aren't excuses to my mum and dad. Because the thing is, the police come round,

you pretty much say to them, I don't want to talk to you. They're not going to sit there and hassle you about it. They can't arrest you for going missing. They're just going to say, all right then, as long as you're home and safe. And they leave. How were you feeling in yourself at this point? I was quite ashamed of myself because I knew it was wrong. I knew how wrong it was and I knew it was wrong. I knew how

wrong it was and I knew that them drugs killed people. So obviously it was the guilt and the guilt does eat you alive because it's hard going to sleep every night knowing that you probably killed someone with it just by giving it to them. It's not a nice life to live because every part about it is horrible other than the money but the money doesn't even make it feel worth it. The price you pay for that £300 a day, it doesn't come close. Did you worry about lying to your mum and dad? I was more bothered about getting in trouble with them because that's all I've ever been bothered about, getting in trouble with them.

Because obviously I don't want to get in trouble with my mum and dad because I was trying to live a double life. I was trying to go to school, be good with my mum and dad because i was i was i was trying to live a double life i was trying to go to school be good for my mum and dad whilst also be good for this guy and do as he says but you can't do both so one kind of took over the other and it was the bad part that took over the good part why didn't you this is going to sound like a really naive question but i just want to know how you feel about it why didn't you just stop is going to sound like a really naive question, but I want to know how you feel about it. Why didn't you just stop what you were doing? In my head, there wasn't a way to stop. They had that control over you by then. And I think, do you see how he groomed you?

Yeah, when I look back on it now, I see how much it was grooming. At the time, I just thought he was just being nice. It wasn't as easy as just saying, listen, I don't want to do it anymore, I'm not doing it. Because if you say that to him, that's when people start getting hurt because they have to feel like they're in control. If you'd met Eva at that point, do you think you would have listened to her at that point?

Whilst it was all going on? Yeah. I think if I had professionals involved whilst that was all going on, especially either, I don't think it would have got to the point where it got to. Professionals don't get involved with you until you do the wrong thing. Unfortunately, yeah. And I suppose he would have shared some of that with me.

Oh, this guy let me drive his car and that would have been ringing alarm bells in my head. What was the point when you realised I had to do something about it? Yeah. It was school. School was really starting to figure it out and school was cracking down on it and it got to the point from when my mum was reporting me missing to school was reporting me missing, but when my mum would report me missing,

it was, my son's not come home and this and that. But when school report you missing, he's not shown up to school in days. When he comes in, he looks like he's're missing it he's not showing up to school in days when he comes in he looks he looks like he's on something or he's exhausted he's always got new clothes new shoes he's always got money in his pocket we think he's definitely involved in county lines and that's what it was and then i'd have the police ringing my phone and i and i didn't know what to do so i went in school i said i got something to tell you because i would have

rather had my mum hear it from me than hear it from a police officer at the door. And what was it like for you when your mum came in? It was the biggest relief of my life, because it was just like the weight of the world was off my shoulders. Because I was walking around for a good ten months with that all on my shoulders and no-one to speak to about it. Yeah, when I told my mum was it was a very big relief

and i could finally just breathe and i knew it was nearly over because i knew once my mum found out i was never going through that door again and she let you out yeah yeah yeah she lets me out now but yeah i didn't go out for a very long time after it but i don't blame her though and how did your mum react when she found out? A lot better than I expected. She just said to me, we're going to get you help. It was terrifying because I did not know if I was going to get in serious trouble for it. I'll get help for it.

You sharing your story could be so powerful to others. All I want is just for kids to realise that it's not the life because you do not enjoy a single second of it How do you think other adults saw you at the time? And how did you feel in yourself? I think other adults seeing me as a kid who was going off the rails I think I was just looked at as a criminal

because you know what, when you see someone doing them things, it's easy to just say he's a criminal, because that's what it is. It's criminalistic behaviour. You understand that, that people would think, well, he's dealing drugs. If I looked out my window now and seen some guy robbing cars and dealing drugs, criminal. No two ways about it, he's a criminal. So, obviously, I didn't like. So obviously I didn't like that stereotype

and I didn't like walking around knowing I am a criminal because I come from a good background with a mum and dad who work hard and they're not criminal and I don't have a criminal family, you know. They're good. And obviously my mum and dad have morals. So it was more shameful than anything. I think the thing that hit the most with me was when my grandma found out. Because my grandma, yeah, she believes I'm an angel.

She doesn't think I can do one thing wrong in my life. I can't do anything wrong. I could never do anything wrong. But when she found out, you could tell it really disturbed her. It wasn't nice. And the thing is, yeah, there is people who look at me differently now. And there's people who I don't talk to because of what I've done. I found his story and his honesty just gripping. And it's not a voice that you often hear on the radio either.

Well, tomorrow in the last of this series, Jo Morris speaks to Robin, the youngest of the shift guides, about her own history as a vulnerable child who needed support and also meets a girl called Me, who has stopped getting into trouble since she has had Robin in her life. Thank you for all your messages coming in. We were speaking a little bit earlier about a survey out by the BBC about one in five teachers in England getting hit by a pupil

since the start of the year. Here's a message. It's not a systemic issue. It's all about poor parenting. Stop pandering to wokery. Everyone wants to offload responsibility to someone or something else. There are far too many people looking for excuses and blame. A three-year-old arriving at nursery in nappies is shocking

and is no one else's fault. 84844 if you want to get in touch. Also, so many of you getting in touch about Biba. We had the founder, Barbara Hulanicki, on. Here's one with a photograph, which I will describe. I was 15 when the Biba department store opened. My friend and I went there and stayed all day. I kept my Biba baked bean tin.

Yes, there was beans sold there, which I keep my pens in. And yes, has a black and gold kind of art deco. Very fancy baked bean tin with the pens in. Keep them coming, 84844. And just with those facts, so it's nearly one in five teachers that is hit in England by pupils

since the start of the year. Whatever you'd like to comment on do get in touch. You're all radio lovers and you're going to love this next segment as well because today marks 30 years since the start of BBC Radio 5 Live. Focusing on sport and breaking news

5 Live once had a reputation for being a radio station for the blokes, maybe. But female voices have always had a place on those airways. And we have Broadcasting Royalty with us today. One of the women who was there from the very beginning and knows everything there is to know about sport and many other things too, might I add. It is presenter Eleanor Oldroyd, who presents the weekend breakfast show on the network. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you so much, Nuala. Gosh, I'm blushing. That's very kind of you. It's lovely to be here. They can't see us blushing on the radio. That's the great thing about radio. I've always loved it.

So can you believe 30 years? I read that you spent, hang on, three quarters of your career at Five Live. Yeah. Well, I started broadcasting for the first time 40 years ago this year, extraordinarily. Congratulations. Thank you very much. And so, yes, three quarters of my broadcasting life has been at Five Live. And it seems extraordinary to think

that it's 30 years, actually. But at times I look back at how things were then. And, you know, you talk about the idea that it was for blokes. And I kind of get frustrated that that still comes up, actually, because it was always incredibly supportive to the women working on the team. And, you know, formerly of this parish, Jane Garvey was the first voice on Five Live 30 years ago today. And actually, funnily enough, I've been messaging Jane this morning saying, guess where I am this morning? I'm coming to Women's Hour

and I heard her on Five Live as well so we're going to meet up and do some reminiscing ourselves. Well that sounds good. Let us reminisce a little bit here. You became the first female presenter of Sports Report in 1995 and I think the reason

the bloke moniker if we want to put that with Five Live is because of sport it was focused so much on men. Now, we've seen great changes on that. But let's talk about 1995 to now. What do you think has changed? Well, I do think a lot of it is the way that we cover women's sport, particularly.

So for the large part of, or probably the first half of my national radio sport broadcasting career, it was all about men's sport. It was about the Premier League. It was about the Six Nations rugby. But you wouldn't say, you know, the Women's Super League. You wouldn't say the Women's Six Nations, the Men's Six Nations, the Women's and Men's Ashes then. It was just the ashes, the Six Nations.

It was all about men's sport. And I think, you know, there were always a lot of women working on sport, actually, again, behind the scenes, even before Five Live started. And there were gradually, by small increments, more women coming on to broadcast on sport. So actually, I was the second female sports voice on BBC Radio because Charlotte Nicholl, who came before me. Charlotte. You worked with Charlotte, haven't you?

I worked with Charlotte, actually, on a number of royal events, which I know you, of course, have. the people would be very familiar with your voice, particularly the King's Coronation, which took place, which you were leading. But yes, I mean, but Charlotte was the brave one in some ways. She was the one who was the first woman football reporter on air. And at that time, people thought, how on earth can a woman possibly know enough about football to talk about it? And then I came after. So I was the second and then the first regular presenter of sport on Five Live. But I was never allowed to commentate or I never sought to commentate. So ball by ball commentary, because, again, it was felt then that women's voices were unsuitable for commentary because they got too high-pitched in moments of excitement, as if male voices don't get high-pitched

in moments of excitement as well. So one of the things that I'm most proud of that's changed in the last 30 years is the number of female commentators that we now have on sports. Alison Mitchell in cricket, Sarah Orchard in rugby, Gigi Salmon in tennis,

and then Jackie Oatley started doing football. Vicky Sparks did the women's euros for us in 2022 and brought the trophy home with the lionesses and to speak about that skill of commentating because that is what you were doing also for the king's coronation and other events as well it is a very particular skill and something I, which being at Five Live just really honed it. How would we describe it to the listener? I mean, what was quite interesting was because I'd come from an environment where my news presenting was on Newsbeat on Radio One and everything was scripted to within the millisecond. But actually on Five Live, it was much more discursive.

You had to be able to chat and describe things and fill for time. So going out to do big sports programmes, I might go and present the Brazilian Grand Prix, for example, which is one thing that stands out, in 2007, 2008. So you have six hours on air and you couldn't have scripts for a whole six hours. So you'd have a few things written down on a piece of paper and you'd be walking around and, you know,

describing the scene and knowing how to fill those gaps. So Five Live made me a much better broadcaster because you couldn't rely on somebody writing things down and having the script in front of you. And it's always had that much more relaxed, I think, much more chatty vibe about it. Yes, you're kind of weaving between the conversation and then that information and news that you need to get in there.

Other highlights, looking back? Well, I think the Olympic Games, for most of us who've worked on sport in that time, I mean, I dreamt of being a sports journalist when I was at school. And, of course, there were no female sports journalists, but, you know, I just had to sort of think, I could do it, it's fine. Why shouldn't there be female sports journalists? That's really interesting as well, though, you know, I just had to sort of think I could do it. I could do it. It's fine. Why shouldn't there be female sports journalists? That's really interesting as well, though, isn't it?

I love that, that you didn't feel that anything stood in your way. No. Well, I thought I think I thought somebody's got to be the first. You know, somebody's got to do that. What a great way to think. And, you know, it's got to be somebody. So why won't it be me? And so, yeah, Olympic Games. So actually 1992, before Five Live in Barcelona was my first this summer will be my 13th

that's while you're multiplying by four in your head and thinking how has that worked out there are some winter ones as well as the summer ones We've got a couple of minutes but why is it the Olympics that's the pinnacle for somebody on Five Live I think it's because it's that perfect mix of

people who aren't necessarily the big paid sports stars. You know, they're the people who've dedicated years of their lives into table tennis or taekw for example, things that we wouldn't think about for the rest of the time. And the stories are so immediate as well. So people will come out and tell their stories in a much more relatable way, I think. So I've absolutely loved doing that. And then the fans, you know, so London 2012, I think for anybody working on Five Live who worked on that will say that was the peak. But also Sydney in 2000 was amazing because, because again the fans loved it um and i think paris this year will be very much the same how lovely uh one way to celebrate um what are five

live doing to celebrate we're celebrating here with you there's been a succession of programs already so as i mentioned jane was on the breakfast program this morning i'm actually on five live in an hour's time okay talking about sport and then this evening i've recorded we actually recorded yesterday a two and a half hour program of the big sporting highlights oh wow of five lives 30 years and what's been really interesting actually is the increase in the women's sport in that time so at the start you know you had your individual performances so kelly holmes is in that list from 2004 and so olympics moments you know tennis moments, we talked about then. But then in the last few years, you know, we've had the Lionesses, but then the Women's Cricket World Cup in 2017, in front of a sellout Lords. And so many times when I had to pinch myself, because I thought,

we just didn't take those women's team sports seriously for so long. And I know cricket is your thing as well. But how do you understand just in our last 30 seconds or so that that explosion, it's been exponential in the past five years, I'd say. I think if I'd come on Women's Hour 10 years ago and they'd say, what do we need to do for women's sport? And everyone would say, more coverage, more coverage. That doesn't come as a given or as a right, but actually because I think the increase in coverage

actually has then meant more investment. It's meant the sport has got better. It's meant more people get better at it and the skills improve. And now it's a product that so many people love and pay for and go and enjoy. And so Five Live can drop that. Red Head Bloke is a dead moniker. Exactly. Eleanor Allroyd, I have to say, I am a massive fan.

You can probably hear who co-presents the weekend breakfast show on the network. And of course, you can also hear the programme that she was just mentioning. Thank you so much for coming into us here on Woman's Hour. Tomorrow marks 10 years as we speak of anniversaries since the first marriages of lesbian couples in England and Wales. We'll be speaking to women impacted by this change in the law and what being able to marry in a same sex couple rather than a civil partnership meant to them a decade ago. It's been great being back with you this week. Thanks so much for listening.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Natalie Cassidy. And I'm Joanna Page. Now you might know me as Sonia from EastEnders. And Stacey from Gavin and Stacey. And while sometimes we are on the telly, mostly we just love watching it. So that's what we're talking about in our podcast, Off the Telly.

We're chatting about shows we just can't miss and the ones that aren't quite doing it for us. That comfort telly we can't get enough of. And things we know we shouldn't watch but we just can't help ourselves. And we'll be hearing about all the telly you think we should be watching and talking about too. No judgement here. Well, a bit. Join us for Off The Telly. Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,

The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.