Woman's Hour - Birth during Covid-19, Mary Berry’s tips for lockdown, and Grace Davidson

Episode Date: April 11, 2020

The Coronavirus pandemic has seen a high level of anxiety among pregnant women and their families. So, what can pregnant women expect when the time to give birth does come? Jo Mountfield is Vice President of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists and a consultant obstetrician at University Hospital Southampton. She explains what maternity services might look like and why mums-to-be should still seek help if they’re concerned. We also hear from a new mother who gave birth on 30th March.Running a household in the coronavirus lockdown can feel a bit like we’re back in the 1950’s. Calling over the fence to borrow a cup of sugar has once more become a reality as some foods are now in short supply, and there’s ‘rationing’ of items in supermarkets, although some of those restrictions are now lifting. But every last breadcrumb counts if you don’t want to or indeed can’t leave the house. Dietician, Priya Tew and baking legend, Mary Berry share their tips on how to maintain a healthy diet and make the most of what you’ve got.When the first world war broke out the suffragettes suspended their campaign for Votes for Women to join the war effort. Pioneering couple, Louisa Garrett Anderson and Flora Murray moved to France and set up two small military hospitals with a staff of volunteer women surgeons, medics and nurses, amidst fierce opposition. Their medical and organisational skills so impressed they were asked by the War Ministry to return to London and establish a new military hospital in the heart of London’s West End. Wendy Moore’s book 'Endell Street' is about the lives of the pioneering couple and the hundreds of remarkable women who worked with them.Grace Davidson is a British soprano who specialises in the performance and recording of Baroque music. Grace is one of the soloists on a new album for Holy Week.A durag is a type of scarf, typically used to protect and maintain different styles of black hair, like dreadlocks or braids. It can be also worn as a fashion statement, and has been a staple part of black culture. But durags have also had their fair share of controversy, with some people making affiliations to gang culture. Last week, Rihanna made history – and a statement – by wearing a durag for her photoshoot on the front cover of British Vogue. Is this a turning point for how the durag is perceived in both popular culture and high fashion? Kenya Hunt is a Fashion Director at Grazia UK. Funmi Fetto is a Contributing Editor at British Vogue and the Beauty Director at the Observer Magazine.Co-parenting can be difficult at the best of times. But the outbreak of COVID 19 and the latest government advice to stay indoors, has forced some separated families to make some difficult choices. If you and your ex-partner share the caring responsibilities of your children, what’s the best way to manage? Ex-partners, Natalie Duvall and Daniel Dubier, and single mother, Endy Mckay, join Jenni to share their experience of the last couple of weeks.Julia Samuel has worked for the last thirty years as a psychotherapist, first for the NHS and then in private practice. Her second book, 'This Too Shall Pass: Stories of Change, Crisis and Hopeful Beginnings' has just been published. She talks to Jenni about how people are coping and how to manage in this time of tremendous change.Presenter: Jenni Murray Producer: Rosie Stopher Editor: Kirsty Starkey

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Good afternoon. When you're after ideas for what to cook, when ingredients may be short, who better than Mary Berry? She looks back to the things she learned from her mother during wartime rationing. Lots of parents who no longer live together are struggling to share the care of their children. How about moving back together for a bit?

Some days are really good. Some days we're really good. Some days we might have a few little arguments. I say little, but we're just like any other people, parents trying to get through this. It's not the perfect setup, but it's one that actually is working at the moment, but we are literally taking it day by day. The rise and rise of a form of headgear that was once only worn

for work. Rihanna wore a durag. What cultural sensitivities apply? During the First World War, a group of women doctors, surgeons and nurses ran a military hospital in London's Endell Street. How did the all-female staff go down with the patients? There are mentions of some of the men actually feeling that they'd been deemed a hopeless case because they'd been sent to a women's hospital. But they very quickly came round. They very quickly realised that the women doctors

were every bit as good as male doctors. As cultural events in the theatre, concert hall and cinema come to an end, the soprano Grace Davidson, on the ingenuity of using technology to try and keep things going, and her contribution to the music of Holy Week. And arguably the most timely book title ever, the psychotherapist Julia Samuel, on her offering This Too Shall Pass, stories of change, crisis and hopeful beginnings. Now, it's not surprising that women who are pregnant have been getting in touch with us

and telling us how worried they are about getting the care they need during pregnancy when hospitals are so busy with COVID-19. And then, of course, there's giving birth. What will be available for them when the time to deliver comes? Well, Jo Mountfield is Vice President of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists and a consultant obstetrician at University Hospital Southampton. Jo had just finished a shift on the maternity ward when I spoke to her on Thursday morning. What had it been like?

Well, we've had about our usual 19 babies in the last 24 hours here in Southampton and I've already seen a number of happy mums and babies this morning. So yes, in some respects it feels like business as usual but clearly we're in very worrying times for people but it's still to have that joy is a great thing. But how does the atmosphere differ from usual for both the patients and the staff? Well clearly it's not normal because the staff are obviously having to wear personal protective equipment masks and visors and more than that in certain circumstances and so for them it feels very strange for all of us it feels very strange and for the women obviously coming into a situation

with the staff wearing these outfits that would not normally be the case for their birth and when they need to come into the hospital it does does feel difficult and, you know, communicate. We have to be really clear with our communication because that obviously is not so easy either between mums and professionals and also between staff. So that's a really important part of it. Let me put some of the worries that we've heard about to you. Number one, can partners be present at delivery?

Absolutely. That is really clear in the national guidance from our own college and the RCM. We're absolutely committed to making sure that birth partners can be at the birth with their partners because we know how important it is for women who are anxious at this time anyway and the support during labour and birth is really, really important. So yes, we've not heard of any units at the moment who are stopping partners coming in

and we've made it really clear that that shouldn't be happening. We should be supporting women to have partners with them. What's the position on pain relief and epidurals if anaesthetists are maybe busy elsewhere? We are still supporting that service as well. So again, all the hospitals throughout the UK

and certainly within my own have a dedicated support for anaesthetists to support women in labour and on labour ward. It is a priority. We are a core service and those facilities should still be available for women who want to have an epidural. So that is a priority. We're not pulling all the anaesthetists away to look after other patients with COVID and other problems. It's a priority to maintain that service. What about women who want the least intervention possible?

How can they be reassured that their birth plan will be followed? So we're committed to giving women choices as far as you can. Because again, that's really important to make people feel secure. So there's really clear guidance again nationally about how with different levels of staffing and whether you've got an availability of an ambulance service as to what services you can offer within your own area. Within my own service, we are still offering a home birth service. We have still got a midwifery-led unit that remains open. And then, obviously, there is the option of the delivery suite, the labour ward, for those women who are at higher risk.

But for those women who want to opt for a low-risk environment, even where the staffing is really difficult in organisations, even where the ambulances are not able to support that, even within a labour ward environment, we know that actually what trusts are doing is having an area of that which is for midwifery-led and low-intervention women who want to opt for that rather than having them all mixed up together in a setting with the high-risk and the low-risk women together. So there is a way of facilitating women who absolutely want to have a low-risk birth environment to do that, even within the constraints of the service at the moment. It won't be perfect, but people are doing absolutely all that they can to maintain those services and those choices for women.

What support is available for breastfeeding in the hospital? So in the hospital, we have obviously the staff are still there looking after women. They are providing the breastfeeding support that has always been there whilst women are in the hospital. But what we do know is that women are going home probably quicker than they would have done so previously. And so certainly within my own organisation and with many others, we are providing more in terms of telephone support, helplines.

There is lots more information out there online and also making sure that fathers are aware of the advice as well so that when women do go home, there is still a mechanism to support them. But the support in hospital is the same as it will be, other than, of course, we are not getting a lot of women together in a room, which we've done in the past,

to provide social support as well. That's not happening. It's on an individual basis, obviously because of the transmission risks. And just briefly, Jo, I know pregnant women have been warned of the possible risks of COVID-19. How concerned should they be about coming in for scans or checkups when they're pregnant? No, what I would say to you is really, really important that women come for their antenatal care. Absolutely crucial. And we want to encourage them to do so.

As I hope the messages have been heard loud and clear, the vast majority of women who contract the COVID virus will have a mild or moderate form of the illness and will not be seriously unwell. We are doing everything in our power within the services to reduce the risks of transmission, which is why partners are not being invited to come into these sorts of antenatal appointments and so we want to really encourage women please do not miss your face-to-face antenatal appointments please do not miss your scan appointments because that care is crucial and we want to keep you and your baby safe.

I was talking to Jo Mountfield. Now you may remember that just before Christmas we spoke to a woman who was expecting a baby and had got in touch with us because she has anxiety and autism. She was worried about how she would cope with giving birth to her child because she finds it hard to be touched and has a fear of what she described as sensory overload. She wanted to discuss some of her worries because it's a subject that's very rarely talked about. Well, she's now let us know that she had her baby on the 30th of March at the start of the coronavirus lockdown. We haven't used her name at her request, but I spoke to her earlier. How did it go?

We were really lucky despite everything going on it actually went smoothly we had a really positive experience we had such a detailed birth plan to deal with the sort of autism side of things we we spent months making just the most incredibly detailed plan that included a c-section and my parents my siblings my partner places to wait outside the hospital if I needed to get out, recovery after. We had a midwife that we were really close to. In the five days leading up to the birth, it was almost like every day we lost one thing from the plan. So obviously the cafes closed, then my siblings weren't allowed to be involved, then my parents weren't allowed to be

involved, and our midwife had to self-isolate. And then we were told we were going to 100% have our own room and then it sort of dropped down to 80, then to 40%. So everything felt quite chaotic going into it. But actually, when we got in, we were just so lucky with the attitude of the midwives that they managed to sort of negotiate all these problems and find ways around them. But how in the stage coming up to it as things were starting to change and we started to know more and more about the coronavirus, how did that affect your anxiety? To be honest, I think I would have been hugely anxious anyway. So I think it changed the topic of my anxiety slightly, but I don't think it gave me additional anxiety.

I think I would have found something to be anxious about regardless. So what happened once things really got going and you were in the hospital? I think there was three things that were really helpful for us. First of all, our midwife was amazing. So even though she was self-isolating, she was phoning the maternity unit the night before and on the day of our C-section to check that everyone knew that we were there and the details about us. And she sent a colleague in to keep an eye on us as well, who she had a friendship with, which was amazing. And the second thing that was great is that despite all the staff shortages, and I mean, the hospital was empty, everyone was wearing face masks, there were security guards on the door, there was quite a sort of rushed atmosphere. But despite this, everyone, all the doctors and midwives we came into contact with took us really seriously. And they took the time to stop and listen and didn't dismiss the sort of issues that we were having. And then lastly, I think that I was just really

overwhelmed by how open everyone was to creating sort of new pathways. We weren't just pushed into a generic plan B. So they did actually manage to get us a private room in the end. And they told my partner that if he and I both rigorously self-isolated for two weeks before the C-section, he would be allowed in the room. He wouldn't be allowed to leave it but he was allowed in with me which really really made a huge difference and there you are now with your daughter in your arms yeah absolutely yeah sleeping how's it going now you're out of hospital are you getting the support you need now yeah we're getting a lot of phone calls so we we didn't have the second day visit but we we did get a five-day visit from a midwife to do the blood

tests and to weigh her and we're getting I think one visit from the health visitor later this week other than that it's phone calls but there have been quite a few phone calls and there's sort of a number we can call if we do have questions so it's been slightly different this is this is our first child as well so in a way for us we don't know any different to this which I think probably helps and how are you coping with the responsibility of being a mother as long as I don't leave the house I feel fine I get very anxious I mean I've been actually told this happens to all new parents when they leave the house regardless of pandemics or not but I get very anxious leaving the house with her particularly when it's a sunny day and there's a lot of people

around. So that's been really hard. But in the house, it's actually been okay. I mean, we had nothing else to really concentrate on, which I think, again, is sort of frustrating and slightly boring because we chose to stay in London to have all that London has to offer sort of available. But we've just been in the house with her. So's been our total focus and you're very happy as a family yeah you know we are I think you know we'd prefer everything was was open and we could get out but I think we just also feel really lucky and so relieved that she's here and she's okay and we're okay you know there's such a sort of worry about all of that going into the birth that at the moment because we're only she's only nine days old so just the relief that she's okay is sort of worry about all of that going into the birth at the moment because we're only she's only nine days old.

So just the relief that she's OK is sort of taking over a lot of other things. And she did make herself heard. Now, it's not easy getting the right ingredients for the things you want to cook right now. And of course, a restaurant is not an option. Queuing at the supermarket and finding certain things are rationed, especially dog food in my case, not easy when you have three of them, rather took me back to my early childhood in the 1950s. Jane spoke to the dietician Priya Tu and the cook Mary Berry. What would Mary consider to be her essential stocks during isolation?

I'd like to have a backup of tins, of tin goods and things in my freezer. I mean, obviously pastas, which have been short in the supermarkets, I believe. Remember with pasta, you know, if you want to make lasagna, you could use any of the other pastas that you've got. Cook them a bit first and, you know, even penne in layers or tagliatelle in layers. So I would like pastas and rices and tinned things in my freezer. I've always got frozen peas and, you know, you may not get them on your next visit to the supermarket, but to have them on hand, I think, is great. And bread, too. We're only two. So when I buy a big loaf, I divide it into three and wrap some of it and put it in the freezer.

So I've always got fresh bread. We mustn't have waste. We mustn't throw away. No, not at the moment. I know, of course, you were only a child during World War II. We must remember that. But you have pretty clear memories tea, I will be able to make cakes and the odd pud during the war. I mean, things were difficult because, you know, you grew everything yourself. And, you know, flower beds were turned into vegetable patches. And we made the most of vegetables and we were lucky to be in the country and have chickens and things. Let's bring in Priya. Priya, you have three kids.

They are three, six and nine. That's right, isn't it? Yes, that's right. Right. You're a dietician. You're also a single parent. So that's the three kids and the single parent thing. That is not easy at the moment, not easy any time. It's been a huge adaptation to suddenly having them home and trying to work. And I also run a very busy Pilates studio as well. So it is full on at the minute.

Yeah, well, they're up and at it, as you'd expect, by almost 10 past 10 in the morning. What are you eating? What are you able to get? So we have been able to get most things. Pasta has been a little bit short, as have frozen vegetables. So when I went recently there were only brussel sprouts left um nobody wanted the brussel sprouts it would seem the things that I have really struggled to get are the free from food so I've got a lactose intolerant child and I can't eat wheat myself so gluten-free flour has not been around and lactose-free milk as well.

That's odd isn't it? Do you think people are buying in bulk or buying stuff because they mistake it for something else or what what's going on? Well I did go and I did a shop and I saw quite a few people with lactose-free milk and I thought oh there just must be more people that need this milk at the minute but I think that people have been buying it up because it's long life. So therefore they're buying that instead of their usual milk. So they've got a stockpile. And maybe it's the same with the flour. Now tell me about shopping, actually getting to the shop when you've got the kids and it's just you as the sole adult. Is that possible? Can you go into the shop with the kids? I found it really hard because I don't want to take my children around the shop at the minute.

They're going to be touching things and picking everything up and running around, creating chaos, which you can't really do with social distancing. So I've been relying more on the smaller local shops and I've been leaving them outside or by the security guard. I'm finding that's the easiest thing to do. Right. Mary, you mentioned lasagna and using other forms of pasta in lasagna. What you can also do, Priya, presumably, is tear up lasagna and stick it in a pasta sauce and pretend it's bigger and chunkier than it actually is. Yeah, that's a great idea. Or the other idea would be look for rice noodles. Look for different types of pasta that you wouldn't normally try and give those a go. And what about the food parcels that

the government is supplying to, we think at the moment, approximately 50,000 people? What do you know about them, Priya? I think they sound like a really good idea for those people who are having to self-isolate for a long time and can't get to the shops. So I've got a friend locally who received one and he put the picture on Facebook. So I contacted him and asked exactly what was in it. And he told me that he had got tins of peas, chopped tomatoes. He had some pasta and baked beans, tuna, bolognese sauce, some tomato soup and some ready-breck, some potatoes, bread, long life milk and some apples. Right, you're right. I think the parcels do differ depending on whereabouts in the country you are. Just as a dietician, what do you think of that?

I think the parcels are a really good idea if they contain ingredients that you can make some meals from. Is that parcel good enough? Yes, that parcel, you could certainly use your tinned tomatoes and your tuna to make a pasta dish. You've got your baked beans on toast that you could easily make. There's bolognese sauce and pasta, and there's vegetables in there as well. So I think that parcel sounded really good. Yeah. Mary, the simple way to make a tomato sauce. Can you remind us? I mean, if you've got a tin of tomatoes, what can you do? Funnily enough, I was making a basic tomato sauce yesterday.

First of all, I start off with an onion and I cook. I just cut it up roughly and then I cook it down in very, very low heat in a little bit of oil or butter until that's absolutely tender. I then would add some garlic, then I'd add the canned tomatoes and if I've got tomato puree or sun-dried tomato paste, I put that in

and if I've got a drop of wine, I'll drop that in as well but it's unlikely the wine's left over. Yeah, well, you said it, Mary. Can I ask something about snacking? Because this is a question that's come in from our listeners. And I confess that we're all anxious. This is a stressful time. And many of us are closer to our fridge for more of the day than we're used to.

And I'm afraid that means that we're making increasing visits. So, Priya, what do you say about that? What is the healthy snack? If you can get in some nuts and some dried fruit and have those to hand, but do let yourself have things that you really fancy. So we need to be allowing ourselves to have bits of cake or chocolate bars or whatever it might be to satisfy that craving. So it's okay to have those foods, but try and balance them up. So I say to my children when they ask for sweets, certainly have the sweet thing, but you know, have some fruit, have some nuts to go alongside it. And then we close the kitchen. So we put our snack on a plate, we go away and we eat it. And then that's it snack time is finished do you

recognize what i said about myself that perhaps stress is making you choose choose differently when it comes to the old nibble yes yes definitely i think stress for some people it makes them want to eat less and for other people it certainly makes them want to eat more and it can be those sweeter foods or more carbohydrate foods because they are satisfying. And it's OK to therefore be eating some of those. But obviously, we want to be mindful that we're not continually going back for snack after snack. And I don't want to give a sort of picture of our listeners as being terrifically happy with this state of affairs at the moment because it isn't true. This is an email from a listener. I'll keep her anonymous. But she says, I've just slowly become rather low. I've got no motivational energy. I'm sleeping a lot. I

think I'm actually suffering because I'm an extrovert. And my friends that aren't are enjoying self-isolation rather more than me. There is no doubt about it, Mary, and you acknowledge it yourself. This is a tough time for many, isn't it? I think it's a very tough time, and particularly people who are alone or perhaps a single parent with several children in a confined space. It's a matter of planning the day, isn't it? And, you know, young children can draw, they can do jigsaw puzzles, but all the time, what's next?

It must be very, very difficult indeed. And I think getting to do cooking with them is good and also giving them jobs. Like my daughter has three children and they're all under 15 and they do breakfast, lunch and supper in the evening. They have to lay the table and actually clear it away to put it in the dishwasher on their own. And so they take quite a pride of it. And the little girl went out and picked some primroses and put in the middle of the table.

You know, it's giving them tasks to do and make them proud to do it. Yes, and anything that breaks the back of the day and gets you through to tea time is a good way of proceeding, isn't it? Now, lockdown cake. You mentioned delighting small children. Here's a good way, if you've got the ingredients, make a cake, for heaven's sake. And you have a recipe for us for a good old sponge. Yes, well, I mean, I would just make the basic Victoria sandwich because you get a bit stressful when you've got to make a birthday cake.

And so if you do a recipe that you know, and I use a baking spread and I put everything in the bowl together, in my mother's day, it would be the weight of the eggs in butter, sugar and flour and then you just beat it all together and put it in two tins it'll cook better make sure you use the right size tin for the amount of mixture and then you can sandwich it together with what you've got. It could be buttercream or cream or just jam.

And then make some icing, butter icing. If you've got no icing sugar, you could do it with caster sugar. And then a water icing on top, made with lemon juice and icing sugar. And the decoration, have you got some sparklers left, a few candles. If you haven't got anything to pipe it with, you can always decorate it with sweets, little tiny sweets in the name of the person.

It's the thought that counts. And if it's a young person having a birthday, do let them do it with you. Mary Berry and Priya Tu were talking to Jane. When the First World War broke out, the suffragettes and suffragists suspended their campaign for votes for women to join the war effort. A couple of doctors, Louisa Garrett-Anderson,

the daughter of Elizabeth Garrett-Anderson, the first to qualify as a woman, and her friend Flora Murray, went to France and set up two small military hospitals with a staff of volunteers surgeons medics and nurses who were all female they were so successful they were asked to return to london by the war ministry to set up a new military hospital in the west end wendy moore is the of Endell Street. It wasn't easy at the time for women to qualify in medicine. How had Louisa and Flora managed it? No, indeed, Louisa's

mother, as you mentioned, Elizabeth Garrett Anderson, she had already won the right for women to become doctors. So women had broken that taboo, they were allowed to qualify as doctors. So women had broken that taboo. They were allowed to qualify as doctors. But it was extremely difficult to get posts in any senior positions. So most mainstream hospitals effectively barred women. They were not appointed to general hospital posts. They were not generally allowed to become surgeons. So they were more or less confined to treating women and children only. How did they fund and staff the first hospital in Paris where all the staff were women, including the surgeon? They were quite formidable women. They'd had experience in the suffragette movement. They'd both been active in the suffragette movement. Flora Murray

was Mrs. Pankhurst's doctor. Louisa had been to prison for breaking a window. So they had connections. They had great organisational skills. They raised £2,000 from their friends within a couple of weeks of the war breaking out. And they recruited other women doctors and nurses and orderlies. And then they were off to Paris within six weeks of the war. What was the reaction of the soldiers they were treating who had probably never seen a woman in that kind of position before? Well, exactly. It was taboo for women doctors to treat men. So they had no experience before of being treated by women doctors. So I think it came as a big shock to them at first. There are mentions of some of the men actually feeling that they'd been deemed a hopeless case because they'd been sent to a

women's hospital. But they very quickly came round. They very quickly realised that the women doctors were every bit as good as male doctors. And also grew to to like the hospital more so than a mainstream military hospital because it was um Endell Street in particular was renowned for its homely atmosphere there were colourful wards with lots of decorations lots of fresh flowers and lots of entertainments to keep them going. Now, obviously, they impressed the top brass. How significant was the order to come back to London and set up Endell Street? It was completely unprecedented. When the women had first set up their hospital in Paris, army officials came to see them and they were very sceptical.

They didn't really believe women doctors were any good, but they were quickly converted. So they became some of the strongest allies of Flora and Louisa and they passed on the message to the army's top doctor, Sir Alfred Keogh. So Keogh then invited Flora and Murray to run a 500 bed hospital at Endell Street in the heart of London. But it was seen as a huge gamble. He had been told, his colleagues had tried to dissuade him from it. He had been told that it would fail. Most of the army believed that the hospital would not last six months. What impact would you say their work had on the prospect of women's equality? Keogh, who invited them initially to set up the hospital, he later said that they had done more for the cause of women than anything else during the war.

So women did get the vote at the end of the war. And this was seen as one of the key reasons for that. Now, they had to cope with what's known as the Spanish flu after the war. How did they manage with that? Well, that was really their darkest time. So they had stayed open throughout the war, treating horrific wounds, men with terrible diseases and with shell shock. But they had kept going because they were working together, fighting a common enemy. And then at the end of the war, peace came. But the Spanish flu came in its second wave, the most deadly wave. And that was their absolute lowest point because now there were more men falling ill than before, more deaths than they'd had per month than during the whole war. And it was affecting the staff too.

So they had deaths of men, but also at least four of the staff died of the flu. Now, when the hospital closed in 1919, what happened to the women doctors and surgeons who'd run it? When it closed, everything went back to exactly as it had been before the war. So those women doctors who had all that experience they'd gained, they'd been renowned as great surgeons and pioneered new antiseptic methods, they were then sent back to treating women and children. as great surgeons and pioneered new antiseptic methods,

they were then sent back to treating women and children. So most of the doctors, they either did that or they retired. Wendy Moore, the author of Endell Street. We know the country's cultural life has been put somewhat on hold at the moment as we can't go to theatres, concerts or cinemas. But of course there's a big effort to make plays, films and music available, often online. On Sunday there'll be a BBC Four concert on television at 7 o'clock called Culture in Quarantine.

The performers will be singing as a virtual choir, having recorded their parts in isolation, but appearing on screen together. Then there's a new album for Holy Week, including Couperin's Le Son de Tenebre and Grace Davidson is the soloist. Now, traditionally, the Couperin there is sung, I think, on the Wednesday of Holy Week. Why is it meant for the Wednesday? It was first performed on the Wednesday in the year 1714 when it was written by François Couperin and it was used with each piece that was sung. I believe they extinguished the candles in the setting of the church and the abbey where it was performed. It is the most gloriously beautiful music

and I fell in love with it about 15 years ago when I first performed it in St Paul's Cathedral. Now, you're also part of the consort on the record for Gualdo's Tenebrae Responsories. That's a really difficult one to pronounce. Why is that piece suitable for Maundy Thursday? Do you know that? The Jez Waldo, the text was written for the Maundy Thursday.

So the other half of my album, which I shared with Tenebrae and Nigel Short, is the responsories for Maundy Thursday by the Italian Renaissance composer Carlo Jez Waldo. So they are hugely contrasting to the beauty and smooth melismatic lines of the Confirant. So it seemed like a fitting alternative on the disc. But what impact is the lockdown having on a freelance musician?

Well, the current situation has had a colossal impact, actually, on musicians and my friends and my colleagues but we're all suffering rather i mean the rug has completely been pulled from under our feet and unfortunately we can't just go back to work after the lockdown is lifted whenever that might be our performances have now been cancelled well into the future because it's so unknown. And to make things more worrying, promoters, festivals, agents, record companies, they're all unable to negotiate for the future as everything is in limbo. So it's a real worry.

And it's tough emotionally too because I'm so sad not to have been able to take part in all the wonderful things I was due to do this Easter and Easter being the most predominant time of my year really with the repertoire that I sing. I know you're involved in the Culture in Quarantine virtual choir on BBC4 on Sunday. How easy was that to work where everybody was recording their own bit separately and then it's put together online. Well, it was interesting. It's a challenge. It's not something I've ever done before. We all sent in our individual lines and these amazing filmmakers and engineers will be required to stitch us together into a big jigsaw puzzle. I'm intrigued to see how it turns out. And that's Culture in Quarantine on

BBC4 on television at seven o'clock on Sunday. And I was talking to Grace Davidson. Still to come in today's programme, how best to manage the children during the pandemic when the parents are separated but both take responsibility. And probably the most timely book title of the season, the psychotherapist Julia Samuel has written This Too Shall Pass, stories of change, crisis and hopeful beginnings. And don't forget, if you've missed any of the live programmes during the week, you can always find the podcast. All you have to do is go to BBC Sounds and you will find us there. Now, Rihanna made something of a fashion statement last week

by wearing a durag on the cover of Vogue. The durag is a scarf, but it's not simply a scarf. It's generally been worn to protect and maintain dreadlocks and braids, and some people have associated it with gang culture. But now it's on the front cover of the most famous fashion magazine in the world. Fumi Feto is a contributing editor at British Vogue and the beauty director at The Observer magazine. Kenya Hunt is a fashion director at Grazia UK. Jane asked Kenya what the origins of the durag are. It's a cloth that we wear around

our hair. Thunmi wrote about it brilliantly for British Vogue. I mean, its origins date back to slavery when you would see men and women in the fields wearing head wrappings to keep the sweat off their face and protect their scalps from the sun. And then it was popularized in the 1970s when you would see a lot of black men wearing it as a part of just their personal maintenance and hair care because it would keep your waves nice and crisp and frizz-free. So, I mean, that's what I associated with. I just associated with my uncles and my uncle's friends

wearing do-rags around their houses before they went out so that their hair, you know, their waves could look really sort of glossy and crisp and fresh. So when you found out that Rihanna was going to do this and wear this, were you, well, tell me how you felt about it, Kenya. Well, I found out about it with the rest of the world. I saw it on Instagram, and I just screamed and gagged because I just, you know, I associated it with like, a completely different context. So for me to see like, my childhood, and then my teen years, because you know, there's a hip hop connotations. And I had so many memories of the do rack. So to

see it on the cover of Vogue, and then to see that like my dear, dear friend Fumi had written about it. And I mean, it was just, and all the people I loved, Rihanna, I'm a Rihanna stan, like all of my favorite things were converging on one cover. So I just squealed with delight. Oh, there we are. Fumi, that's the reaction you intended, presumably.

I mean, it was an exciting moment for all of us, absolutely every single one of us, because, you know, the durag has always been, as Kenya quite rightly said, you know, for a long time, it had actually been criminalized. It's been, you know, linked to gang culture and so on and so forth. And this cloth that, you know, is so steeped in black culture and essentially it is something that is a practical cloth in many ways, you know, to keep our hairstyles in a certain way. It's a protective hair accessories in many ways. And to have this completely stigmatized and so on. And then now we see it on the cover of Vogue, you know, the most influential fashion magazine in the world being worn by one of the most influential women, black women in the world. I mean, it's quite a significant moment. I mean, it was a real celebration. I mean,

even now I'm talking about it, I can't take the smile off my face. It's really a moment. It's incredible. She has worn one in public before, hasn't she? Yes, she's worn them a number of times. And this is is so wonderful about um what rihanna has done to kind of rewrite the story about the durag because she has worn it in spaces that you know you would never expect it to be worn so she wore it at an award ceremony to pick up a fashion award from anna winter she's worn it um to perform at the mtv awards Awards. She's had her models wear it on the catwalk and so on. So these are spaces that in normal circumstances, you wouldn't see the durag.

It wouldn't have been seen as acceptable. It wouldn't have been seen as polite to wear it there. It would have been seen as too ghetto, too black. I'm really intrigued by that. It wouldn't have been seen as polite. Yes. It's normally worn around the house. You know, you wear it to protect your hair, you wear it to, you know, lay down the edges of your hair and keep your hairstyles in a certain way. And you wear it to bed a lot of times. And because of the way it's been demonised for so long, you know,

it's been associated with gang culture. It's been associated with hip hop. It has that stereotype of a black man being an aggressive expression of blackness. And because it's been linked to all of those things and all those stereotypes, it hasn't had, it just hasn't had sort of a great reputation. And so to see it in those spaces whereby that kind of thing would never be acceptable, you know, it's pretty powerful. It makes quite a powerful statement. Okay. So is it now utterly, I don't know, is mainstream the right word for this now, Kenya? What would you say? Well, I wouldn't say that it's mainstream. I would say we saw Lenece Montero make her debut on the Prada runway with an afro and that made headlines and sparked similar

conversations and then that paved the way to Arsene Kornrose in magazine fashion shoots and on runways and then box braids and now do-rags and so I think what we're seeing is that this allowing for in the celebration of the full spectrum of what blackness is and how blackness looks. Kenya Hunt and Fumi Feto. When parents don't live together but share the care of their children, it can be difficult to organise at the best of times. So how are people managing now when the government is requiring us all to stay at home? Children, of course, are allowed to move between their parents' homes during this time, but what happens when the distance is great or one parent can't drive

and public transport is not an attractive option? Endy Mackay has been separated from her nine-year-old son's father for several years. Natalie Duval and Daniel Dubier have two daughters, have been separated for two years, but COVID-19 has brought them all together in Natalie's house. How do they normally share the care of the girls? Usually we both work nine to five and it takes a village to help with raising our kids. And so I do a lot of the school drop-offs in the morning because Daniel actually lives an hour away from us and then he will pick up in the evening because they do after school club and my mum also helps a lot with the child care when we're both working so it's really

like a whole family affair but obviously now with my mum not being able to help with looking after the children and us still both working full-time we really had to put our heads together and think how best to kind of combat this. Daniel big step what made you decide moving back to Natalie's was the only solution? Because the kids are just so comfortable and secure within their house I didn't want to kind of move them around physically over to mine. And I thought the best solution was to kind of come over here and kind of help with sort of day-to-day tasks. To be honest with you, I didn't anticipate this being as long as it's lasted. I mean, I thought it would be at least a couple of days to a week, but it's kind of dragged on a bit. And, you know, I'm just kind of here just to kind of help with day-to-day tasks homeschooling cooking and just do as much as i can just to kind of make

sure that the kids are as stable as possible i have to say you're in very good company apparently bruce willis and demi moore have moved back in together after 20 years i think of being separated let's go to to endy endy how do you manage the care of your son under normal circumstances? Well, as you said, co-parenting is not easy at the best of times. It's taken us quite a long time to establish a kind of regular routine. But we have been there recently with our son having visits at the weekend to his dad. And so obviously, after spending so much time establishing that i was really reluctant for that to be interrupted um and the plan at the beginning of the situation was uh for

me to take him over there i drive so i was happier to do that than have sort of him on public transport but since the situation has rapidly kind of worsened, I've decided we had a chat about it and he's now just here with me and FaceTiming Daddy daily, which is a shame. And obviously it is unsettling. Natalie and Daniel, how well are you getting on after what I suspect was a difficult split and not that long ago, a couple of years ago. Yeah, we've been split for two years now. We actually had this conversation yesterday and we said if this has happened a year ago, I don't think we would have been mature enough

to have had this discussion and come together because we were in a very different place a year ago as we were two years ago. So, you know, we made a conscious decision at the beginning of this year that we had to be friends just for the sake of the girls um to be honest with you it's it's had its good days it's had its hard days it's had its mental days um it's a we're just taking it day by day some days were really good some days we might have a few little arguments i say little but we're just like any other um people parents trying to get through

this it's not the perfect setup but it's one that actually is working at the moment but we are literally taking it day by day Daniel how would you describe it very differently to me slightly differently to Nelly um yeah it has been a bit challenging, especially sort of taking myself out of my comfort zone to sort of move back in with Natalie full time. And the children are living their best lives. But I was going to ask you that because obviously they're loving having mum and dad back together again. But how concerned are you that they might get the wrong impression and think actually you're back together forever? Yeah, that is a thing that we have spoken about as well because we have a six-year-old and an eight-year-old so they're very young and very impressionable um and that's something that we

do fear when all this does come to an end and daddy does go back to his house um just how what kind of thing what kind of toll it's going to take on them um and we don't have the answer yet um we're trying to keep things as separate as possible we sleep in separate beds um but there are things that we are doing as a family like we're eating dinner at the table as a family we're playing board games as a family we're going for walks as a family which actually before all this we never really did we'd always like i would take one to the park and we do things separately so it is a bit of a it's going to be a bit of a minefield when this all does blow over and we are kind of going back to whatever normal will be um and you know we're going to have to just take that day by day yeah I mean a great

thing about this is that it's it's it's taught me to kind of really appreciate you know the kids a lot more because you know when it all goes back to normal when I go back home I'm going to be missing days like this and at least I can kind of look back and say you know I appreciate those moments and appreciate those times and when the kids get older and they ask questions yeah they can definitely look back and say you know daddy was there or we were all together as a family through this crisis. Andy what impact do you reckon it's having on your son that he's not able to actually physically see his dad because of the restrictions on movement um i i think he he seemed absolutely fine with it he seems to kind of be taking it as children often do in their stride i think there was a real excitement around

school finishing and uh this prospect of homeschooling excitement from him not so much from myself and so I think in a way it's all so up in the air and so different he's sort of seeing it as a kind of holiday or something that's so unusual that I don't feel he doesn't seem to be sort of negatively impacted on it and actually the conversations he's having with his dad over FaceTime, they're actually more frequent than normal. So in some ways, even though the contact is different, it's still there and it's sort of quality time they're spending together. But yes, when this comes to an end,

it will be then about trying to re-establish that structure, which took quite a while to get in the first place so yeah it's not ideal but we'll see how it goes the government advises that kids can travel between both parents homes and would you be prepared to go and and let him travel there well this was that was my first suggestion was that i drive him his dad doesn't drive so i would say it's no problem for me to drive i kind of suggested that let's do this weekend and it's the first week after school closes and i said i'll just drive and pick him up whenever you know whenever you

want i was also kind of desperate to be able to catch up with a bit of work um so that was that was the idea it was then more through when the situation escalated and where his dad lives, it's a block of flats. He has a lodger and a friend was staying there as well. And I just felt, and I got pressure from my own mom and family members, that is it wise? How many people are going to be in and out of the house and contact that he'll have at his dad's house? And so I did kind of go to his dad and say I'm anxious you know perhaps let's let's leave it for this weekend and just do FaceTime and he was okay with that I think he understood and then we've taken it from there but the same thing that I heard from Daniel you know

we don't know obviously how long this is going on for and it's constantly changing so I don't know if this continues whether we'll have to reassess the situation and then I'll drive them over there. I was talking to Endy Mackay, Natalie Duval and Daniel Dubier. And lots of you emailed about being joint parents during the lockdown. Yvonne said, I'm in the army and I'm a single parent. My child went to her dad the day before the lockdown. This is the longest she's been away from me and she's coming back on Easter Sunday. We were worried that she wouldn't be able to see

her dad for a period of seven weeks so we took the decision to go early. We talk daily and I read books to her before bed. I'm working from home and her dad works from his home. His wife is a former teacher, so she's supporting homeschooling as she works from home too. We're just trying to make it work. And Lola emailed, it's so difficult during this time as I wouldn't usually have direct contact with my son's father. He was very abusive physically and sexually and I left him when my son was a baby. This lockdown means that I have to deal with him myself. My son is tearful about leaving me and his sibling at home for more than two nights. If I can't get him to go he threatens me with court and prison. Because of these threats I usually get a family member to do handover in holiday times, but now I can't ask anyone.

As much as I understand and respect there's a court order, how will I practically get my child into the car? Now, I can't think of a title to a new book that is more aptly timed. This, too too shall pass. Stories of Change, Crisis and Hopeful Beginnings was published just before the lockdown began. Its author is the psychotherapist Julia Samuel. How is she coping in the current crisis? I think I'm the same as everybody else. I kind of, it comes in waves, doesn't it? Sometimes I think, oh, I'm doing really well and I'm really kind of winning here or I'm balancing. And then other times I get furious about the smallest things.

So then I have to listen to my own medicine, which sometimes you sort of forget in your back pocket when you're cross with your husband for not putting stuff in the dishwasher. Why are we generally ill-equipped to deal with change, especially a change of this magnitude? I think most of us have a problematic relationship with change, even if it's change that we choose. But I think, and also particularly in the 21st century, I think we have a kind of false sense of our control. so when now we are being completely

controlled by a pandemic we kind of hit a wall we I think people have sort of thought if I think my way around it if I will my way around it can I Marie Kondo my feelings to be tidy and then recognize fundamentally that they are powerless and but the thing to do is to have you know to have the sort of serenity prayer to accept the things you cannot change change the things you can and have the wisdom to know the difference what's the best way then to look after ourselves i think the first is in fact just in your question is that we do need to take care of ourselves that we can't things we do to block change often do us harm so to support ourselves in it to be self-connected self-compassionate kind to ourselves connected to other people i think that really matters even if

it is um on screens that i think we need that more than anything else, and it is the predictor of helping us manage best is when we feel close to other people. Exercise, as sort of unglamorous as it is, even if it's on your 12-minute app or with Joe Wicks on the telly, it reduces the cortisol in your body, which sets you on high alert. So it reduces that hormone and gives you oxytocin which calms you and if you do a breathing exercise after that you know you don't have to

find your inner chi but just breathe in for seven and out for 11 again that's a very good combination of exercising and breathing so what you want to do when your system goes on high alert is to do the behaviors that calm you, intentionally do things that comfort you, listen to Grace Davidson or a playlist or plant a bulb, but intentionally doing it helps you. And then funny enough, altruism, and like the response to the NHS,

helping other people helps you feel better about yourself. And I think it gives you a sense of agency when you feel so powerless. And it has the side benefit of improving your immune system. And what about this cultivating hope? I mean, Hopeful Beginnings is part of your book. How do you make yourself feel hopeful this too shall pass yes I mean I think it's you can't have hope when you're in the midst of the crisis because that is a kind of false hope and it's a kind of thin optimism which doesn't work so hope as you're coming through the other side of the crisis, it isn't just an emotion,

although that helps. It's how we think that we have a capacity to set realistic goals, how to achieve them. And then that gives us self-belief. And so it's a very intentional attitude. And it is hope that is the alchemy that turns a life around. I was talking to Julia Samuel. On Monday, Jane will be here and she'll be talking to Sian Clifford, most famous, I suppose, for playing Fleabag's older sister. She'll be discussing her new programme, Quiz, which tells the true story of who wants to be a millionaire and

the couple who were accused of using coughs to cheat their way to a win. That's Monday with Jane. Do join her if you can. From me, enjoy the Easter weekend as best you can. Bye-bye. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies.

I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.