Woman's Hour - Bishop Rachel Treweek on Justin Welby, Forgotten Children, COP29 and maternal outcomes

Episode Date: November 13, 2024

The Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, has resigned, following pressure to stand down over his failure to report prolific child abuser John Smyth. What's the reaction from female leaders in the Church of England? Nuala McGovern speaks to Bishop of Gloucester Rachel Treweek, and Reverend Canon Lucy Davis, Chair of the National Association of Diocesan Advisers in Women’s Ministry.We hear the third part of our week-long series Forgotten Children, which looks at the impact on families when one or both parents serve time in prison. Reporter Jo Morris spoke to Nan (not her real name), whose daughter was sentenced to prison. This left Nan to care for her five grandchildren for two years in her two bedroom house. COP29 - the UN's annual climate conference - is underway in Baku, Azerbaijan. To discuss the issues for women Nuala is joined by Fiona Harvey, the Guardian’s Environment Editor, and Adelaide Lusambili, an associate professor at Africa International University in Kenya, who looks at how climate extremes are affecting maternal outcomes.A new musical – Mozart: Her Story - tells the story of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart’s sister Maria-Anna, who taught him how to play the piano. Nuala is joined by the lyricist, Tegan Summer, and actor, Gabrielle Brooks who gives a performance from the new show. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Lottie Garton

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Nuala McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, in a few moments at the fallout from the resignation of Justin Welby, the Archbishop of Canterbury, we're going to hear from female leaders within the resignation of Justin Welby, the Archbishop of Canterbury. We're going to hear from female leaders within the Church of England and ask, also, could the next Archbishop of Canterbury be a woman?

We'll take a look at the findings of the Macon Report into failures of child safeguarding that led to Justin Welby's decision to step down. Mums away. It's a euphemism used by a grandmother who took in her five grandchildren when their mother went to prison. We're going to hear that story as part of our series, Unforgotten Children, which is covering the impact on families when a parent or parents are imprisoned. Also, we're back in Baku looking at how women and girls are disproportionately affected by climate change as COP29 gets underway.

But have their issues featured yet at the climate summit that is taking place in Azerbaijan? And the grand piano is looking splendid this morning in Studio 88 because we have some music for you this morning as we explore Mozart. Anna, Maria, Anna Mozart, that is. If you'd like to get in touch with the programme, to text, it's 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our website. And for a WhatsApp message or a voice note, the number is 03 700 100 444.

But let us begin with the news that you will have no doubt heard this morning on the News Bulletin over the past day, that the Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, has announced he will step down from his role. It follows a report called the Macon Report into a prolific child abuser associated with the Church of England. The review found that Welby could and should have reported John Smythe's

abuse of boys and young men to police in 2013. Now among the many key findings, the report said the Church's reaction to the expose of John Smile's abuse by Channel 4 in February 2017 was poor in terms of speed, professionalism, intensity and curiosity. The needs of the victims were not at the forefront in terms of thinking and planning. The response was not trauma informed. That's just a few details from it. I want to bring in the BBC correspondent Harry Farley who's been following this story.

Harry, good to have you with us. Tell us a few more details of what is in this report. Well, the report outlines how John Smythe, a Christian barrister in the 1970s and 80s, who was part of a series of conservative evangelical camps called the Ewan Trust Camps that Justin Welby himself went on actually as a young boy young man and teenager the john smythe is described as the most prolific abuser to be associated with the church of england he dished out physical psychological sex sexual abuse to dozens of young boys up to 130 the report uh lays out details of in quite gruesome detail really he um beat the boys to such an extent that they had to wear nappies such was

the blood after the beatings that he would give and i should probably harry actually i've said this previously but because with this report it is just so distressing some of the experiences of these young boys that has come to light that I just want to let people know that as we continue our conversation. Yes, of course. And the details really are quite distressing. I suppose the key criticism of Justin Welby himself was that he knew at the latest in 2013 about Smythe's abuse. He was told then that the police had been informed and that it was being investigated but he did not pursue those investigations himself. He has apologised, he said that he didn't investigate them as energetically as he should have done and he has been criticised for not, I suppose, doing more to make sure that Smythe was being investigated in 2013 when he was told.

Because the key point is Smythe continued to abuse boys right up until his death in South Africa in 2018. And the implication is that some of those future victims could have been prevented from going through what they did. If the Archbishop and others, it's worth saying he's not based by far, he's far from the only person criticised in last week's report, if they had done more to ensure that those allegations were properly investigated before Smythe died in 2018, before he was ever brought to justice. So the Archbishop stepping down, what did he give as his reasons? That failure to follow up? Yes, exactly. He said that he must bear personal as well as institutional responsibility for the long, what he called the long and re-traumatising period between 2013, when he was told, and today.

He says that he hopes that in stepping down, he believes it's in the best interests of the Church of England. And he said he hopes it demonstrates how seriously the Church of England understands the need for change and our profound commitment to creating a safer church. So those are the reasons, I suppose, the key one being not only his personal responsibility and the personal criticism that he received, but also that wider institutional criticism the church received. And Harry, you know, they talk about in the report that the abuse perpetrated by Smythe was covered up. Do we know how?

Well, so I suppose there's two elements to this. It was initially covered up and the report describes it as an active cover up in the 1980s in particular, when a secret report was published, was sort of commissioned and written, but never published, I should say, and was circulated among clergy who actively Zimbabwe and South Africa where his abuse continued and then there was the further, I suppose, secondary cover-up of when senior bishops in the church, including still serving senior bishops, were told in 2013 about Smythe's abuse and then failed to make sure that the police were properly investigating it. You know, we have a live page up on the BBC News at the moment as well. I have seen, maybe you have as well, Hari, over the past few minutes, that the Archbishop of York says that Welby's resignation is enough. I'm wondering what others are saying. Well, it's certainly not what some of Smythe's victims are saying. They say that this was never

just about Justin Welby. Many others across the church, I mentioned those in the 80s who were involved in that active cover-up, also those serving clergy who also knew. The Archbishop of York says he thinks that Justin Welby's resignation is enough. It's worth saying that Julie Conaty, who's the Church of England's deputy lead bishop bishop on safeguarding says that she thinks there may well be others who need to resign so the archbishop certainly not speaking for everyone within the church there and victims are certainly saying that others who knew and didn't do enough to make sure that the the allegations against Smythe were investigated they should also resign. Harry Farley, BBC correspondent.

Thank you very much. And that Archbishop of York is Stephen Cottrell. He says that he has resigned Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, for institutional failings. And that's why it should be enough.

He says the others who actively covered this up should resign, but they were not bishops. Let me bring in another couple of guests who will have thoughts on this. Joining me are the Right Reverend Rachel Treeweek, Bishop of Gloucester,

who was the first female diocesan bishop in the Church of England. You're very welcome. Also, Reverend Canon Lucy Davis, who's vicar at St Andrew's Church in Bedford and is the chair of NADAM, which is the National Association of Diocesan Advisors in the Women's Ministry. Welcome also to you. And let me begin with you, Lucy, if I could. You're chair

of an organisation that works to support all ordained women achieve their full potential. So you have an ear to the ground in that role, I imagine. I want to know what women ministers in the Church of England are telling you after the release of the Macon report and the resignation of Justin Welby. Thank you. I think that the reaction of female ministers will not be differentiated by their gender. It will be the same as our male colleagues and that is a huge sense of sadness a huge sense of sadness for the pain that victims have experienced over such a long period of time a sense of sadness for the failings of the church that we love and that we serve and the failings of that institution yeah a profound sense of sadness today that is not about our gender.

It's not about gender because this is about, however, safeguarding. And I'd be curious for your thoughts, Lucy, on whether increasing the presence of women in ministry, which is something you very much advocate for, has changed the church, whether it's changed it in relation to safeguarding? I think I would say that it has because a safeguarding culture where all voices are unable to be heard is a good safeguarding culture. And so hearing women's voices is part of that,

but also other voices that have been silenced, voices of vulnerable people. I think that there has historically been a brand of muscular Christianity, I believe that was a term that Macon used in the report, that was very masculine, where other voices were silenced. And I do wonder whether that sort of culture, where only one voice is privileged, allows abuse and abusers to operate in a way that a mixed culture of genders and other voices does not. This Sunday is Safeguarding Sunday and I'm wondering what might you say to your congregation? I think I would share that sadness that I've just talked about. I think we would take time to be quiet and to pray and I think I would remind congregations that safeguarding is a responsibility of everybody within the community and within the institution. So while the Archbishop has resigned,

if you like, the buck stops there, it is the case that there are multiple places where Smythe's abuse could have been picked up and could have been stopped. And as a church now, we need to be aware that we are not perfect. There is still work to be done and we are all responsible for that culture of safeguarding. I'm interested, you used the term the book stops there. I was just speaking about Stephen Cottrell, the Archbishop of York, who said that the resignation of Archbishop of Canterbury is enough because he has resigned for institutional failings. Do you agree with that? I'm not sure that as a parish

priest that is a question that I can answer. Okay I understand. Hold that thought. Bishop Rachel let me bring you in here i'd be curious for your thoughts on that last question that i just put to lucy and also was mentioning to harry harry um our correspondent about stephen cotrell's comments this morning um saying that the resignation of justin well be is enough thank you um can I also just echo what Lucy said? It's really important, all these conversations, that we put victims and survivors at the fore. And it needs to be really important that that is where our focus is. And I am deeply sad, ashamed. The report is sickening. And I am deeply sorry for all those victims and survivors for what they've experienced and what they continue to experience with the re-traumatising now and for the utter failure of the church to them.

So I do want to absolutely start there. It was absolutely right, sad, but absolutely right that the Archbishop of Canterbury stood down. He has taken that institutional hit, if you like, for being at the top. But we would be wrong to say that, therefore, job done. We've got to keep focusing on our safeguarding. In terms of, there's been a lot of talk about other bishops resigning. I think I do want to remind us that the cover-up in the report, which is absolutely horrific, even people who covered it up, leaders in the church, priests, saying that this was for the good of the gospel. That is not the gospel that the Jesus Christ I know, the God I know. And I think those people who were part of that cover-up in the 70s, 80s and 90s must be brought to account. Do you think they will? Well, I believe they will in that the National Safeguarding Team and bishops and safeguarding advisors in the different dioceses where they are will absolutely,

even probably as we speak, be going through those rigorous processes. And if they're not, people like myself will be using our voice. You know, this is not about the church being silent. I am absolutely clear that those people who covered this up in those days when the UN camps were going on, when people knew what was happening, must be held to account. And there must be consequences of that. So I do want to keep the focus on the victims and survivors and those who allowed that to continue. And a couple of aspects with that that I want to come back to. One that the survivors of John Smythe have called for more resignations. They've been very clear about that. There is the church's deputy lead bishop for safeguarding,

Julie Conalty, speaking on BBC Radio 4's Today programme this morning, said she could not guarantee that there is no abuse still going on in the church, adding no institution can ever be totally safe. Do you agree with that? I do. I think it's important to say that very, very sadly, in our broken world, abuse goes on across all institutions, families, communities, and it is abhorrent. What I can say is that since 2013, a lot of work has been done on our processes, on our structures, and we still have a long way to

go not least with the whole area of independence um can i ever put my hand on my heart and say no abuse will go on in any institution no i can't but i do believe that now with our training with our structures um we are much better than we were and we still have a long way to go. What do you mean by independence? So you may well be aware that in fact the Archbishops themselves commissioned a report by Alexis Jay, Professor Alexis Jay, who you may recall did a big report on safeguarding across all institutions in our country. And the Archbishop then asked her to look specifically at the Church of England

and where the whole element of independence comes into our scrutiny, our reporting. And we are slow in responding to that Alexis Jay report. But that's for very good reasons, because the Church of England has very clunky structures. I do want to really be clear on that. Those recommendations will, I hope, come back to General Synod in February. The General Synod of the Church of England will hopefully make decisions on those recommendations and will then put them into place. And that needs to happen swiftly. And, you know, some point back to the context of the 70s and 80s and those years. But some of this, it's only 10 years ago, and many believe it should have been attacked at that time.

It's not that long ago. How do you understand the failings that occurred in such recent history? I absolutely agree with you that in 2013, when our structures weren't as they are now, but that criticism for people not being curious, not following up on things, that negligence I absolutely hold to. I do hope that things now would be different, but we do have to bring that independence. We cannot, as people have often said, mark our own homework. Having said that, we do need to keep things, I think what can be kept local needs to be kept local, even as we speak speak today up and down the country in local communities our local worshipping communities in toddler groups things that are going on with children and elderly people today um our structures and our training is so much better but we do have to

examine ourselves and say what did go wrong and are we sure that we are now um following all the things that we've put in place? And I understand you're talking about local and independent but then for me it raises the question shouldn't there be oversight? Yes and that's I think it's fair to say again in the complicated structures of the Church of England there is oversight we have a national safeguarding team, we have numerous different aspects of our safeguarding. But it didn't work. Well, I'm talking now to you about what we have now, where we are, you have to, I think, understand that even in the last two or three years, so much has changed. But I also do not want to defend that we need to do better. That's important. So part of the accountability is how do we build in independent oversight of what goes on, which is really important.

And I think it's also really important to say that we need to be listening to what survivors and victims are saying needs to change. Otherwise, yet again, it's people in authority making those decisions. If we're going to change the culture, we do need to be listening to those voices. And they want more senior members to be questioned over the handling of the allegations. They really want it all to come out into the open and they want more resignations. Do you believe, and I'll come back to you, Lucy, in a moment as well, Bishop Rachel, that the next Archbishop of Canterbury could be a woman? I would really like to believe that that's a possibility. I think you also have to take

into account that the Archbishop of Canterbury has a role in the Anglican communion worldwide. I think there are still huge issues around the way people view women in leadership. But in theory, the Archbishop of Canterbury could be a woman. I'd like to believe that's a possibility, but I also need to be very, very realistic about that. I think that's a no. Reverend Canon Lucy Davis, your thoughts? Oh, I'd love to see that. I mean, that's part of my job, isn't it? Because women are gifted at all levels within the church by God to take up ministry. I also wonder whether actually it's too soon to ask that question and to start speculating about who the next Archbishop should be.

We need to take time to pause, to focus on victims before we start asking those sorts of questions. Yes, absolutely. The Right Reverend Rachel Treeweek, Bishop of Gloucester and Reverend Canon Lucy Davis, thank you both so much. We do have a live page on the BBC going and also a lot of discussions about why it took so long for this report to come out, but also what should happen next. Let me move on to COP29. We've been talking about this this week.

This is, oh, actually before I do that, just because with that last story that we've been talking about, which there are so many horrific details that have come out. Let me just tell you, if you've been affected

by anything that you've heard in those interviews, help and resources are available on the BBC Action Line. But back to Baku in Azerbaijan, COP29, it is the UN's annual climate conference. It's underway. We were hearing a little bit about it COP29. It is the UN's annual climate conference. It's underway.

We were hearing a little bit about it on Monday. That was the Women's Leadership Coalition, which is being launched. The assembled delegates are going to discuss ways to limit and prepare for future climate change. There's a particular focus on how to finance poorer countries' adaptation to climate change. The long-term plan for the UN is to limit

global temperature rises to 1.5 degrees Celsius. country's adaptation to climate change. The long-term plan for the UN is to limit global temperature rises to 1.5 degrees Celsius. But we do know climate change has a disproportionate effect on women. One of the reasons for that is because they make up the majority of the world's poor. So they're highly dependent on local natural resources for their livelihood. But there are also many other reasons. And we're wondering how any of those reasons are being represented or if they're being represented at COP this year. So let us bring in Fiona Harvey, the Guardian's Environment Editor, live from COP29. We also have Adelaide Lusambili, a climate change health scientist and associate professor at Africa International University in

Kenya. She is one of the authors of a recent report looking at how climate extremes are harming maternal well-being. Fiona, let me start with you. You're in the heart of things at COP29. Are there any of the women's issues making it to the forefront of the agenda so far? Well, it's nice to be on here this morning. It's a very very busy cop here and i apologize if there's any background noise um but yeah the women's issues will be addressed uh at this cop uh but i'm afraid that i haven't met any uh women's campaigners here uh who think that they're being addressed adequately um as you've just pointed out uh you know climate change uh the climate great climate breakdown falls most heavily on women and girls. And it's really, really essential

that we get more action on that. But there isn't much sign of that happening here. Because they did form a Women's Leadership Coalition. We talked a little bit about that on Monday. Originally, the organising committee

for this UN conference created by Azerbaijan had no women on the panel at all. So that did change. But I'm wondering, can you see any of the effects of that leadership coalition, for example? Well, we can see that there will be a focus,

there will be a day when women and gender are addressed. We can see that there will be probably some items in what's called the cover decision at the COP, which is the sort of the final outcome that will address gender disparities and similar issues. We're also seeing a related focus here. Some people are calling for a focus on children as well. And we've got some actions happening to address that. But yeah, I don't think anyone would say

that this is a very gender-balanced COP either. I understand. Women are not well represented. Not well represented. And I know the line isn't great there, so I excuse us to our listeners. It's just the line, tobacco is not brilliant.

I want to bring in Adelaide. You're a medical anthropologist, as I mentioned, looking at how climate change and the extremes it can bring and how it may affect maternal or reproductive well-being. What have you found in your research?

Yeah, thanks for having me. And thank you because to talk about this very important topic. And I'm going to be referring to the report we had on the 10 insights on climate change. So what we do find is that extreme heat exposure has a negative impact on women on their pathway to delivery from pregnancy to childbirth and to the care of the mom. So we did find that when temperatures are high at the time of conception, they may increase the risk of hypertensive disorder and preeclampsia, which actually increases the risk of preterm birth. And also from our 10 new insights and from and in light with some of the research I have collected, we do find that this continues at the time of birth, where we find that when women get to the childbirth period, when the temperatures are high, they're likely to give birth to babies with low birth weights, and stillbirth is actually a risk factor. So we do find that in some of the research we've collected, we did find that when women get to their labour,

when it's too hot, most of them get to their labour when they are very dehydrated, and this may impact on their health. And what temperatures are we talking about, Adelaide? So we are talking about temperatures that are above 28 and sustained temperatures in some of these settings where we collect data. And I suppose what are you looking for in that? Obviously, there's a long term goal of trying to reduce global warming. But I'm thinking with these women, there's probably practical solutions that they

need, you know, to have some access to somewhere that is cooler, to put it quite frankly. Yeah, but we do need research first, because from our new insight, we wanted to highlight these issues because they have not been highlighted and there's no interventions or adaptation for maternal and newborns. So we need to research first before we come up with solutions. So in our 10 new insights, we were documenting how is heat exposure or flooding impacting women and what kind of adaptation and medications are being done or we need in place to assist women. You also did a study in India of 800 pregnant working women. What can you tell us about that? So that study came as part of our synthesis and from that study we did learn that researchers who collected that data did find that uh when women are exposed to extreme heat exposure the

the risk of um um miscarriage is likely to double you know and this is these are findings that we are getting properly how heat is continuing to impact our mothers um i know you've also in your global research you took a look at research across 33 countries in South and Central America, Asia and also Africa, taking a look at flood events and how they might be responsible for pregnancy losses. How would that be? So the findings we are getting across the globe are the same, although the context are different. For instance, as you've mentioned, clearly some of this research is showing an increase in miscarriage, an increase in pregnancy losses and preterm birth.

And also there's a heightened increase in morbidities and mortalities in mothers and their newborns. So we have all these compelling findings across the club, as our report has highlighted. But do you think anybody's listening? Because we were just hearing from Fiona Harvey there in COP that it's quite difficult,

for example, for women's issues to be at the forefront of the agenda. It's even difficult for women's voices to actually be on some of the panels and delegations that are making decisions. I just want to echo what Fiona has said. I don't think anyone is listening because, first of all, women issues is not even like maternal health and climate change is not even part of the climate change policy and resilience. And in most countries, it's not part of the national adaptation plan. But what we are saying is that, and this is the message we want to send to the COP29 seriously, that as women, we know what we go through.

We carry the pregnancy. We know what it means when we lose the baby. We know what it means when we cannot breastfeed. We know the solutions that are relevant to us. Why are we not at the decision table? Why would men be making decisions for us when we have the lived experience and we know what we need? We can make our own solutions. We can make decisions that can impact us positively. So I think this is a message that we want to send the COP to mind. Why don't we have enough women at the decision-making table? Because the

decisions that are made are not gender-tailored or gender-inclusive. And that's where the problem is. Adelaide Lusambili, Climate Change Health Scientist and Associate Professor at the Africa International University in Kenya. Thanks to you and also to Fiona Harvey, the Gorgians Environment Editor, who was live from COP29. I apologise for the quality of that line, but I thank Fiona for persevering with. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,

The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Now for the third part of our week-long series, Forgotten Children. It's looking at the impact on families when one or both parents are sent to prison. The government estimates that nearly 200,000 children are affected by parental imprisonment. It's an estimate because, as we heard in our discussion on this topic yesterday, there is no centralised register

of children whose parents are in prison. Our reporter Jo Morris spoke to Nan, which is not her real name, whose daughter was sentenced to prison while her daughter's ex-husband was already serving a prison sentence. This left Nan to care for her five grandchildren for two years

in her two-bedroom house. Jo visited Nan at home. These are the kits. So you can see how little he was. Yeah, so this photo was taken not long before it all happened, they went away. So the granddaughter

is the middle of... You've got two boys either side. Yeah. And then you've got the little one smiling at the front. No, look at him. So this is a photo hanging up in your living room. How do you feel when you look at that photo? Well, I miss them, that age, if you understand what I mean,

because that's when they were just my grandchildren, before they become my grandchildren's children. Do you understand what I mean? Because that's how it is, isn't it, really? I took them on for two years. That's when I look at them and I miss how happy they was. That was the grandchildren before their trauma. And I know after that, that's when everything changed for them.

So can you take me back now to that moment your daughter was sentenced? It was like, I just got a... coming right, I don't, I can't. And I just sat there and I was like, I didn't cry. But I'm looking round as if to say, is this really happening? Like, them split seconds, I seconds, I don't even know. I just remember my eldest daughter next to me, she went,

you know, like that, and everyone looked round like, I'm thinking, what do they expect? There's no words that can describe that feeling. It was just on another level level i've never felt like that before actually as a mother seeing your daughter yeah and knowing that the five kids are at home that i'm gonna have to go home now and tell them that dad was already away but mum's away now and and i just remembered i'm being on the bus I can't remember, really, the journey. Do you know what I mean?

I just remember it being dark and all the windows being steamed open. And I did have a panic because I thought, I've never had five children myself. You know, I had three and there's five children and I've got to take care of these now. Am I going to be able to do it? You know, like, in my head, I mean, everything, you just think of all sorts and thinking,

how am I going to tell the children? Because I know what it's like to lose a parent, because, like, my mum died when I was 12, and it was, like, the worst thing that could happen, and it was. What did you say to the children when you went back? I just said, I'm so sorry. I said, Mum's gone away. You know, like...

I just remember him all, like, crying. Like, not so much the younger one. He was like, what? You know, like, he didn't understand as much as the older ones. But they just knew that Mum wasn't coming home. And they can't tell you the actual feelings, you know. So then they come out in different ways, don't they? I'd say, like, the joy kind of went out of the kids.

You know, like, it dimmed them all. That's what I can say. It dimmed them. Do you think your grandchildren expected their mum to go to prison? No, and I think... So my daughter did, like, obviously she'd sat with them a lot and she went to them individually, you know, over the months leading up to the trial and things like that. So she did speak with them, you know,

that there was a chance that mum might have to go away like dad. But everyone would be there, like like to look after them Nana will live with you and Nana will look after you and was there any way that you would not have had them no um it was a panic of my daughters because it was like well the only person that I would trust with my children is my mum what was it like when they all moved in? Busy. So the landlady basically kicked us out, so the decision was to come to yours? Yeah, to mine, yeah.

So how many rooms have you got in this house? So there's two bedrooms upstairs and there's two living rooms downstairs, so one's a dining room, so we've turned one of the rooms downstairs. The front one, changed that into a bedroom. This was my own living room, here you are. Oh, so you've just got this curtain dividing it. Yeah, with a curtain across.

But when the kids moved in, we brought my daughter's bed, because that's what the youngest grandson always slept in. So I thought the kids can have upstairs, you know, their rooms. So it was the youngest grandson grandson and I stayed down here. Where did you sleep? I slept in the living room on the three-seater setting. Did anyone professional signpost you at this point where to get help for the kids and yourself?

Nothing, yeah. No, it was like it was a few days before it kind of sunk in. And I'm like, I'm thinking, who can I phone? So I was in a panic constantly, you know, like, there was nothing. Like, where do we go? I mean, I know we had social services there, but all they wanted to do, basically, was get parental responsibility for the children.

So I said, well, no, I said, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn, yn y bôn there yes what sort of things did you used to make the grandkids well they love curries they love curry so I'd always do in the curry for lads and a girl you know and it's like they love the food but it was just the amount and then the pops the washing up yeah yeah I should have got the kitchen not big enough for a dishwasher did I mean so I think I'm molly-collared and a little too much as well. Grandparents are there for all the good little bits. We'd go, Nana's, we'd go and get treats, blah, blah, blah. So it was like, then I was Nana, but then I was the role of mum. And it was like trying to balance that was difficult, was really difficult.

What was the emotional and the psychological impact on the grandchildren, do you think, of their parents being in prison? Oh, God, it was massive, really. You know, a couple of them, like, didn't speak as much, you know, so they were very, very quiet. And I did used to remind them all, you know, like if one was having a go at the other and I'd say like I said you know they're going through exactly what you're going through so how bad do you feel they they'll feel as bad as you I mean most of it went

by in a blur because it was just it was so full-on there was always something to do there was never a minute do you know what I mean so it just kind of like flowed until lockdown. That was tough as well, the lockdown. You know, having them all here. And he was trapped in the house with the thoughts, basically. Did they talk to you about how they were feeling? Did they talk to you? No.

No. It was strange that, you know, like they needed counselling. We tried to get it for the older ones. So it was strange that, you know, like, they needed counselling. We tried to get it for the older ones. I think that... I think the kids didn't want to talk about it because they were scared of the emotions that had come with it. Do you think they were scared to tell you how they were feeling? They might have been. They might have thought, well, if I tell my nan and my nan might start crying,

it might really upset her. There's always been really good kids. And they really still are. Honestly, you wouldn't believe it. They're absolutely so good children. And you can see how much it's affected her now. They were also really close, you know, the children. And then they've all got to process how they're feeling themselves, you know, the children. And then they've all got to process how they're feeling themselves,

you know, and it kind of... It fractured, you know, because they was all internally having to process and deal with what was going on. And it just kind of, like, broke them. You know, they was never the same after that never, never So how long did your grandchildren go without seeing their mum during Covid?

Nine months Nine months, yeah from the beginning of March till, yeah, till she'd come home So how close was your daughter's house to where you are here? Like, how far away did she live? It's about 45 minutes an hour. So did the kids initially stay at their local school then, when you were here?

Yeah, well, while I was still at my daughter's house, it was like five minutes down the road. But then when we moved here, because we had to move here because the landlady had kicked us out, but social services wouldn't let us change the kids' school, but wouldn't give us any help and my whole day was filled up of being on a bus just dropping kids off and picking them up and I couldn't there was so much still that needed to be done in here and like I was having to go back to school

sometimes like as soon as I got home I was having to go all the way back travel another hour to go and get my grandson because he'd done something they didn't like so I had to bring him home and by the time I got home I'd have to go back again to get the other two but it was a nightmare because then I wouldn't be able the older two getting back so my daughter who was while she was away she got in touch with the school and we've done it between me and her and we got them back into the old school that they was at two years previous before they'd moved and it was like you, if that had been able to happen months before and the social worker wouldn't let us do it, that would have helped the children so much.

What kept you going during that time? The kids. But you know what? I loved having them. Not the reason why I had them. I don't love that, obviously, but... They were just... They don't realise that...

..I needed them... ..as much as they needed me. You know, because it was really hard. What did you need, Nan, at that point that your daughter was sentenced? What did you and your grandchildren need? I'm not going away. Just... So the people that I thought would...

Social services, I thought they would help, you know. No, there was nothing there. So just something for the kids, really. Just support groups. There's got to be more done. There's nothing, it was like, we left that court that day. It was just a cloud of not knowing, you know, shock, everything. But, yeah, there was nothing.

And that's shocking. That is absolutely shocking. There should be someone based at the courts, maybe. Room in the courts, you know, where you think, just something, signposting to different organisations that can help you. I was just looking and I noticed as well, see that blackboard? Yeah. It's like, there was months, you know, like, on the home stretch, on the home run.

Have your daughter coming out? I've got my daughter coming home, yeah. So we've done a board with all the different months and, like, the days and that, so we'd cross them off. And so the younger ones could see. It was like a visual thing. Ooh, we're nearly there now you know not so long to go so yeah remember that other day oh yeah i've got a video actually when she

come home stood at the front door have you yeah just running out to her and just ah mom and they all come in it was just oh it's lovely ah she's home she's home for the kids So how long ago did your daughter come out of prison? So it was Four years ago It'll be four years this December When your daughter came out Where did she

She came to live here She was just in the back bedroom And the boys was just in their room anyway And I was just on the settee still Yeah room yeah and the boys was just in their room anyway and I was just on the settee still yeah it's what was it like when she came out when she moved in with you how did you get on well no we did we had we had arguments you've been the role of mum with the children. So then my daughter's come home and there are children. It's a strange one. And how

is she doing now? How are her and the kids doing now? Yeah, they're doing good. She's having to get used to her eldest moving to uni. He's moved away. I'm so proud of how

she was away from the kids for two years and she held it together If this happened now would you do it again? Oh absolutely yeah You would? Yeah without a doubt I just know I couldn't not, I'd do it for if I had to have all 13 of them all at once I would

you know that's how many grandchildren I've got but if I had to have the whole 13 of them I would. You'd have all 13 of them all at once I would, you know that's how many grandchildren I've got but if I had to have the whole 13 of them I would You'd have all 13? I'd have all 13 of them I'd have so many in one room so many in the other, I'd build a bigger shed in the back garden

That was Nan not her real name, speaking to reporter Joe Morris as part of our Forgotten Children series on parental imprisonment. Tomorrow we're going to hear from Emily whose partner was sentenced for crimes against her

but whose children struggled with the stigma of having a parent in prison. We did ask the Department of Education to tell us what their plans are to tackle the issue of parental imprisonment.

A government spokesperson said growing up with a parent in prison can have a devastating impact on a child's life opportunities. We're breaking down barriers to opportunity, taking action to prevent more women and mothers from getting caught up in crime in the first place. That is one of the conversations we are having on Women's Hour. But let me move to something completely different. What if there was another Mozart? Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart is widely regarded as one of the greatest composers

of all time. Prolific, he wrote over 600 pieces of music. But Mozart also had a sister, Maria Anna. She was called one of the finest keyboard players in Europe by their father.

But what do we know of her life story? And what about her unfulfilled potential? Well, there is a new musical called Mozart, her story, set out to fill in those

blanks. Joining me in studio is Tegan Summer, the lyricist and producer of Mozart, Her Story. Good morning. Good morning. And Gabrielle Brooks, who plays Nan Mozart. Welcome. And thank you very much for having me. So let me first start with the name, perhaps, Tegan. Maria Anna Mozart, but nickname Nan? Nan or Nan Earl, as she was known to her family, absolutely. Yeah, so I was writing a Wolfgang musical many, many years ago, only a few years ago actually, just

around Covid, and I was researching Wolfgang, but every time I dove in I would see the name Nan Mozart or Nan Earl Mozart. I'm like, okay. But then you look her up, I would see the name Nan Mozart or Nanelle Mozart. I'm like, OK. But then you look her up. It's Maria Anna.

Gabby can chime in because she likes to quote Nan's full name. Oh, I can try and quote her full name. Go on. Go for it. Oh, the test. The test of the day. Oh, gosh. Here we go.

Anna Maria Ignatia. And then I put in Nanelle, just so you have that there. Mozart. Warburger. Warburger, yes. One of the names Warburger. Yes. And so I kept finding this story about his sister.

And older, younger? She's four years older. Four years older. So upon further research, it was a case of she taught Wolfgang how to play. They would tour as the Mozart wunderkinds. So I was speaking to my dramaturg, the wonderful Colette Friedman, as I was writing. I'm the scriptwriter, I'm the bookwriter, the lyricist,

and now the lead producer as well. What am I doing? You're busy. Yes. Very busy. And my wonderful dramaturg said, Tegan, that's the story. Nan Mozart.

So that's how the musical came to be here. You hear him later as well playing piano. Gregory Neighbours, incredible genius himself. Absolutely incredible. Composer and our music director. I said, Greg, you have to do this with me. It's an untold story to a large degree. And here we are.

And we're going to hear from Gregory in just a moment on piano. But how did you feel? Did you know, Gabrielle, you're going to be playing Nan? Did you know any of her story beforehand? I knew absolutely nothing about her. But something that my friends

always say to me is that I have a deep sense of injustice. When I feel injustice, I get really riled up by it. So when I first met Tegan, and he told me about her, and essentially she'd become a footnote in history. She'd been erased, actually, her story had been completely erased from history. Not only did I want to join him on the journey because he was very clever and he had given me little tidbits of the script, little bits of song, and I was already sold. But I thought to myself,

yeah, I will join you on this journey to write Arang, because that's what we're doing. We're actually writing Arang by illuminating her story. And so what can people expect, Tegan, from the music? Is it trying to imagine her story or? Yes. Greg and I, I mean, that's a great question. It's all about what story do we want to tell?

Number one, because Wolfgang's there. We have Amadeus. We have Richard Schaeffer's play, et cetera. So what's our story? Where do we fit in the narrative here? We are largely a multi-genre musical. It's definitely West End, it's definitely Broadway, with a rock slant as well. Okay. But we do have a taste of jazz. We have a taste of the patter song. We have any lens that lends to,

that shines a light on any given situation of female empowerment. On trying to, as Gabby said earlier, right and wrong. So you're going to be singing, Gabrielle, Will There Be A Time? So this is an original composition for Mozart, her story. And you're going to be accompanied by Gregory Neighbours on piano.

The fabulous genius that Gregory Neighbours is. I can't wait. Tell us just a little of that song before you make your way over to the microphone. Yeah, this is a really specific point in her story. Most of the songs, actually, I would say are female empowerment anthems. So there are joy to sing and not songs that we often get to sing as women, actually. But this particular song is a very vulnerable part of her journey. It's when she is being very, very honest

about how the world is treating her. She's crying out to society. And also I'd say, and probably from Tegan, that she's crying out to her mother because her mother at this point of the story has tried to teach her about societal norms and how they would keep her trapped, but how to survive that.

What reaction, Gabrielle, do you get from the music when people hear it? Well, we haven't had an audience yet, but I feel very inspired by the music. And actually, one of the things, one of the beautiful things about this process has actually been how much freedom I've been given to express myself through the music, which is kind of poetic, considering how little freedom Nan had to express herself musically. It's gorgeous. I feel very empowered by it. Yes, it's gorgeous. Like it's genius. The word invisible, I think I was hearing there very much and erased as well. But I understand that Nan, she was playing until

she was 15 and then had to stop because it wasn't the done thing. But started again when she was 50, which is I was like, go Nan. Yeah, I mean, what I want people to take from the story is that you are powerful as a woman. And actually, what's incredible about her is how tenacious she was. She still continued to pursue her passion. She just wasn't allowed to because of societal norms. She couldn't continue in the same way and be illuminated

in the same way as her brother. But she didn't stop. Do we know where any of the compositions are, Tegan? I spent some time in Austria, in Salzburg and Vienna. The fast answer is no. No, no. Well, that is still

a mystery to be uncovered. I wish you all the best with the show, I should say. It's Mozart, Her Story. It's on for this weekend on Saturday and Sunday. It's at the Theatre Royal in Drury Lane.

Tickets are available. Thank you so much for giving us a little taste of it this morning on Women's Hour and also to, not Tegan Summer and Gabrielle Brooks, but also to Gregory Neighbours who came in and played

our grand piano for us here in Studio ATA. I want to let you know that tomorrow there is if you love music there's a new musical adaptation of The Devil Wears Prada with music by Elton John

that's going to be on in London's West End. Anita is joined tomorrow by Vanessa Williams. She is the show's leading lady. She's going to talk about the enduring appeal

of that story and also messages coming in in regards to Forgotten Children our our series what an amazingly beautiful granny she brought me to tears with her unconditional love and sacrifice through her outside family sentence my shero and she's a mank love you girl she says i'm in tears now and another agree wholeheartedly with the current nan that is about the granny we're talking about

not no man's mozart about the dis we're talking about not the man's Mozart about the dismal lack of support for those that are looking after children of mums who are in prison. I have personal experience of this and I found there was zero resource or support even from the charity. So that series continues tomorrow.

We're going to hear from Emily whose partner was sentenced for crimes against her but whose children really struggled with the stigma of having a parent in prison. I will see you on Monday. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I don't think you're allowed to call them that. But I love them, really. Curious Cases.

On Radio 4. And available now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.