Woman's Hour - Bishop Rose Hudson-Wilkin, Fast-fashion company Shein, Abortion in Texas

Episode Date: January 13, 2025

The Right Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin is the Bishop of Dover and the Bishop in Canterbury - Britain's first black woman bishop. She’s a trailblazer, who has been right at the heart of a changing nation for over 40 years. Despite discrimination due to her gender and ethnic minority background, Bishop Rose has never wavered from the call she received to enter ministry at the age of 14. She joins Nuala McGovern to discuss her memoir, The Girl from Montego Bay.The fast-fashion company Shein, whose customers in the UK are 80% women, may be listing on the London Stock Exchange soon. But questions remain over the company's supply chain and work practices amid allegations of forced labour and human rights abuses. Nuala speaks to sustainable fashion consultant Natalie Binns and Head of Money and Markets at Hargreaves Lansdown Susannah Streeter. We asked Shein for a comment, but they said they didn't want to provide a statement.Zoe Kornberg is a trainee doctor in Texas who says she left her obstetrician and gynaecology training programme because she felt that, under the strict abortion laws, she wasn’t able to care for her patients safely. Nuala and reporter Melanie Abbott speak to women on both sides of the abortion debate in the US, as well as hearing from Zoe herself. If you've walked through Pounds Park in Sheffield recently, you might have seen a 25m-tall heron...it's a colourful mural by street artist Megan Russell, also known as Peachzz, who has been nominated for Street Art Cities' best mural in the world 2024. Megan joins Nuala to tell us more.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Lottie Garton

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well today, a woman that some say could be the next Archbishop of Canterbury. The Right Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin, Bishop of Dover and Bishop in Canterbury, is in the Woman's Hour studio right now, shaking her head, I should say. But we'll get into that in a moment. It is, of course, a pivotal time in the Church of England after the resignation of Justin Welby.

We will hear her thoughts on repairing trust in the church and also her extraordinary life, which is detailed in her new memoir. Also, you're hearing in the news bulletin there about the clothing company Shein. It could be listed on the London Stock Exchange. It is one of the biggest fast fashion firms globally, but questions remain about its practices. We'll hear about the process and what the impact might be for consumers. Also, the debate continues over abortion laws in the United States. We'll look at Texas, which is some of the most restrictive. And we'll hear from the Sheffield artist who has been nominated for creating the world's best street art in 2024.

Maybe some of you in that area have seen that giant heron and kingfisher. Well, if you want to get in touch with the programme on anything that we're discussing today, you can text 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour. Or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or a voice note,

use the number 03700 100 444. But let me turn to the Right Reverend Rose Hudson Wilkin, Bishop of Dover, a name many of us will recognise. She has been a trailblazer throughout her life, from staging a protest on the roof of her church in Hackney, of course, to being consecrated as Britain's first black woman bishop, and that was in 2019. She has written the story of her life.

It's a new memoir. It's called The Girl from Montego Bay, and it tells of her childhood in Jamaica, the call she felt to enter the ministry, and really her extraordinary life and career since then, including discrimination that she has faced due to her gender and the colour of her skin. And Rose joins me in the Woman's Hour studio this morning. Good morning. Good morning. You should have said my head was shaking from side to side.

No, not shaking in the other direction. I just said shaking her head. I didn't say whether it was up or down. But I suppose my first question, I mean, I could be interviewing the next Archbishop of Canterbury. Absolutely not. Why not? I have no such desire.

And after how we have treated our beloved Archbishop Justin, absolutely not. But let's get into that. I mean, you say not, but reading about your life, every step of the way from that little girl in Jamaica, she often thought that next step was going to be impossible or it would be somewhere that she would not be. You're right, but this is a step too far. You know, I think this needs to be off the spirit.

And I think, I hope there is no one sitting down thinking, I might be or I should be. I hope that we are on our knees in prayer, so that the challenges that we have just seen might be given to God and be of God in terms of where we go next. And if the Spirit led to your name? Unlikely, highly unlikely. So you don't seem to be entertaining this notion of being a contender because I don't have to look very far. Your name is always there. No, no, no.

You know, I think it's a foolish thing to start playing with names as to who our church on behalf of the worldwide Anglican communion. And why would that not be you? It cannot be me. Why? It cannot be me. I don't know why. It just cannot be me. Absolutely not. I have no such desire. And, you know, my desire is to share God's good news with those around me. I have a passion for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I want to tell everyone, you know, what God is doing about the goodness of God. That makes my soul sing. My soul does not sing sitting in a boardroom in discussions with people who don't want to be led.

My soul does not sing being in a space with people who simply want to play games about whether I am fundamentalist, I am conservative, I am Anglo-Catholic. I don't play those games. So I could never possibly be in that space. I might come back to it. But, you know, this is Woman's Hour and reading your book, you have had part of your career alongside Bishop Gulli Francis de Caney, another woman who is also a potential contender. I mean, do you have any thoughts on whether the next Archbishop of Canterbury could be a woman? I think the next Archbishop of Canterbury should be whoever is laid on the hearts of those given the responsibility to choose. And my prayer is that those on the Crown Nominations Committee, which is the committee which was charged with that responsibility, will not be sitting there thinking, great, I get to choose someone in my image now. I think they ought to be on their knees constantly in prayer and seeking the will of God, not their own will of what they think.

But what does the Spirit say? You mentioned at the beginning your displeasure that Archbishop Justin had resigned. Just in a few words, we can elaborate on that. There will be, he was also the person, of course, who consecrated you as bishop. You've said that his resignation won't solve the issue, which was of safeguarding, of abuse within the church that we've talked about on this programme.

But others have lauded it, saying, you know, leadership needs to change and it is a good step to acknowledge responsibility. You know, what I want to say to that is we have seen significant changes within the church in relation to safeguarding. And it is during Archbishop Justin's tenure in office that we have seen these changes. And it is because we're in a better place with regards to safeguarding. So we have professional safeguarding officers in all our diocese. We have people in every parish. Everyone is alert. Everyone has

to do training. Anyone holding any office of responsibility within the church has to do safeguarding training during Archbishop Justin's tenure in office. And so it's because we're in a better place where safeguarding is, why we say, let us look back at historic cases. Let us look back and see how things were handled in the past to see what we can learn, further learn from that. And that's what we're doing. These cases were historic cases. My beloved brother in Christ was not even ordained when these things happened. back at these historic cases, we simply just flail around spending energy and time about who should be resigning or not resigning, then it's a waste of time. If, however, we look at the recommendations and address the recommendations, that will give me confidence that going forward, we will be even in a much better place.

It's interesting you say that because I have heard other points of view put forward. For example, a former vicar told us last week that although there are safeguarding processes there, there's no function to get rid of the members of the clergy who have been accused of abuses in relation to Archbishop Justin Welby, for example, victims of John Smythe might say that the former Archbishop could have done something sooner to stop the abuse, but didn't. We also talked about the leadership, which there is now in some respects at the Archbishop of York, Stephen Cottrell. He has faced calls to resign over his handling of a sexual abuse case. And people are saying it really needs to come from the top.

He, some of the guests that I've had on so far, have said because of overseeing David Tudor, who admitted sexual misconduct last year involving young girls, for example, that they question whether Stephen Cottrell should stay Archbishop of York. I don't want to join in with any calls for resignation. I find it absolutely unhelpful. We are not a political party or a CEO for business. We are a church. We are about the business of God. We are about keeping, ensuring that everyone who walks into our places of worship are kept safe. So us behaving as if we are, you know, let's topple this one and let's topple the other one, that makes no sense to me. And so what I want to do and what I want to see us doing,

to concentrate on the recommendation. What do the recommendations say? So, for example, the recommendation speaks about misuse of scripture, misinterpretation of scripture. It speaks about the prioritizing that we give to the confessional. It speaks about an array of things. Those I want us to examine because that's what's going to make a difference in going forward. So you feel those measures, for example, people may regain trust in the Church of England that many have lost. I'm sure you would have heard that as well from people that you minister to, that there has been a question by many of people whether they can have their trust in the Church of England.

For some, they feel that the leadership needs to change and that's the way to do it. No, you know, my experience, especially since this has hit the news in the way that it has hit the news, people have been coming up to me and have been saying how angry they are at the way the Archbishop has been treated. That's what I'm hearing. I'm hearing from parishioners who are saying that they've had more people in church over this period than they did the year before. So I think it is true to say that everyone wants our church to be safe. We want our church to be safe. But the way for making our church safe is not to play games about resigning, you know, this person resigning, that person resigning. The way to ensure that our church is safe is to look at the recommendations,

to work on the recommendations, to ensure that going forward, we continue to be in a better place. And I'll leave it after this, but even if somebody had been overseeing a potential perpetrator of abuse? I, you know, what I want to say about if somebody has deliberately done something. A cover up, for example. Oh, if somebody has deliberately played at cover up, then, of course, that needs to be examined and rooted and rooted out and addressed. That needs to be addressed if someone has deliberately covered something up. I could not defend that. But that's not what I am seeing here. are people shouting from the rooftop in a way that is unhelpful. And, you know, I think it is fair to say that if we are a church, then we need to behave like the people of God. And part of that behaving as the people of God is being honest and naming things for what they are. And, you know, I believe personally that what we have seen over the last few weeks actually has not really been about safeguarding.

I think it has been about people who are upset about 101 things and it's all become conflated. It's interesting what you're hearing. I have heard other voices on this program, but I do want to move on. Sure. Because you are the girl from Montego life that you have had from this young girl who had a difficult upbringing with biological parents that weren't there for you in the way that you wanted them to be to this moment? Tremendous, challenging, harrowing at times, difficult, painful, sad. But in that, my faith discovered something more than the experiences that I had. It was for me learning that I was loved by God through my reading of scriptures and actually through the people connected that I am of value, then I must be of worth. Then I cannot just live as if I am the abused girl that people think is of little value.

Because you had this difficult upbringing with abuse, assault at times as well. And you very much bear your soul in the book by telling those stories. And I wonder why you decided to include all aspects, even child sexual abuse, which I know you hadn't spoken about for much of your life. Do you know, I hadn't even thought when I began writing the book, that was not going to be part of the book. And it's not because this was hidden. It was simply because I do not live my life as a victim. You know, I am nobody's victim or nobody's survivor. I am a child of God. And so I live into that light. And so it wasn't until I was asked to do a speaking

engagement with the WI. And yes, the Women's Institute. And when I sat down with my staff in the office, you know, going through what I was going to be doing that week, they said, oh, you know, when you go there, they don't want you to speak about anything religious. And I remember at the time thinking, how odd, you know, how odd that they should ask a bishop to come and speak to them, but not to do anything religious. Never thought anything else of it again. And then when I arrived at the venue a couple of days later, the person who met me at the car, at least two or three times before we as we were walking into the venue sort of nervously said, oh, please. And, you know, nothing, nothing, no religion, nothing religious. And by then I'm thinking, oh, I'm a bishop.

That's what we do. Anyway, so I went in and I thought, you know what? I just tell my story. I'll talk to them about my story. I'll tell them I'm writing a book. And it was in the process of telling, sharing my life story with them that this, you know, at that sort of age, this came up and I just paused and then said to them, you know, something has just come up and, you know, I hadn't even thought of including it in the book. But okay, I guess I'll share it with you. And I told them, and then they said, but how is that possible? You know, there you are, you are all together. You don't look and appear as if you've been through any of that. And so the faith that they didn't want to hear about, they got to hear about it because, you know, I have no other explanation as to why I am who I am today, but the fact that God's grace and why I am who I am today.

And you became the first black woman bishop in Britain in 2019. You said you felt imposter syndrome. I imagine you've got over that by now. But, you know, reading your story, it was gobsmacking the racism and sexism that you came up against. Do you mind telling our listeners a little bit about that? And do you know what my experience has been is that people are, they live a certain ignorance that says you can't possibly be intelligent or you've got to be less than I am, either because you're a woman or because you're black. And so those, for example, who says, I don't want you to do my family member's funeral because you're black or because you're a woman. I had someone once who said to me, you know, my mother didn't like women priests and she certainly didn't like black people. And when we asked for you to be the priest. You know, we didn't know at the time that you were black

because I don't necessarily sound black, whatever that means. And he said, you know, we got to the crematorium and you came and stood there. We knew we were risking the woman thing, but you stood there. And we went, oh, expletives in the car, he said. And he said, my brother says, mother is going to turn in her grave. But he said something else. He said, but, you know, you did such an amazing funeral that when my wife died subsequently, I just had to have you.

So people are willing to have their thinking changed. And that's a good thing. But as you wrote, as women, you can cope. We can afford to let you. But as a black woman, you don't have the option of being mediocre or second best. That pressure, I thought, consistently to never be able to be, I don't know, a little off your game someday. It is always there, my sister. It is always there. Because you know, I know that I want black people, people who look like me to come after me in this

role. I actually want people to stop saying the first. Because if you're still saying the first, it means that I have not been accepted as normal. And it also means that hundreds of other black women are being told no, no, no. And that's not right. So, you know, I want to live in a society and I want my children and my grandchildren to live and grow up in a society where they are normal, seen as normal, treated as normal, accepted as normal in this society. I'll throw two more in. Black woman, wife, mother. You said in some ways that could have stood in your way to ordination. It could have. But I remember being told, you know, ought you not to be at home looking after your husband and your daughter. And my instinctive response was, my husband is perfectly capable of looking after himself. I also remember in the book, I loved this, that you said you overheard your husband at one point saying that he was babysitting. And you're like, dads don't babysit, it's their children. And that a mother would never really say I'm babysitting tonight. You know, we just do that. We just do that.

I also like the couple's advice. I'm going to throw this out, that you should figure out the irritation points as a couple and then do less of that for a successful marriage amen amen that's your advice it is and and i practice it i practice it it really is important you know because when you have been in a relationship with someone you get to know what the other what rubs the other person up the wrong way. And, you know, and you love them. So why do the things that rub you up the wrong way? Just, just love each other, you know, and my life is about love. It is about forgiveness. It is about compassion and reaching out to others. And that's at the heart of my Christian faith and the faith as well.

The right Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkins with statement earrings, of course, today. That's part of the look, right? I love my earrings. I feel naked without them. I have been known to have forgotten my earring and think, oh, my God, I've got to get to a shop. I've got to buy or can I borrow your earrings? This is part big, bold, beautiful, colourful earrings. Our statement for you. Maybe some of our listeners have their statement piece that they won't leave home without 84844

if you'd like to get in touch. Thank you so much for coming into the Woman's Hour studio. We will speak again. Her memoir is The Girl from Montego Bay. It is published this Thursday, the 16th of January. All the best. Thank you. Now, I want to turn to a company

that's been in the news, fast fashion company Shein. It has been in the headlines because the company may be listing on the London Stock Exchange shortly. The BBC understands Shein could be worth as much as £50 billion. The company is one of the biggest

fast fashion firms globally with headquarters in Singapore and factories in China. They ship to customers in 150 countries and nearly 80% of its customers in the UK are women. But there are questions over the company's supply chain and also work practices. There are allegations of forced labour and human rights abuses.

Several MPs have raised concerns about this with the committee's chair, Liam Byrne, writing to the CEO of the London Stock Exchange, asking if they have the necessary checks in place, particularly with regards to safeguarding. You can read a full investigation into the conditions of Sheehan's factories on the BBC website today. I want to speak to Natalie Binns, a sustainable fashion consultant, and Susanna Streeter, who's head of money and markets at Hargreaves Lansdowne. Welcome to both of you.

And Natalie, I was giving some of the figures there about Sheehan, but is it possible to overemphasise how big they are in fast fashion? Good morning. Yeah, no, it's, the scale is huge. They, around 600,000 items are for sale on their online platform at any given time. And it was said that in one year between 2022 and 2023, Zara brought in around 40,000 items, H&M 23,000, whilst Shein introduced 1.5 million products over the same period. You know, we know the H&M group is massive, but Shein over the same period brought in 65 times more than H&M. What do you see as some of the controversy, Natalie, when it comes to this company? What

would be the number one issue? The number one issue is the low prices, which we know can't be achieved without exploitation. And that's been proven by Shein themselves. They admitted to finding child labour in two cases in their supply chain in 2023. We've also seen multiple exposés of Sheehan, people talking to their workers and finding that they're routinely being paid, not only not a living wage, but below minimum wage. Well, Sheehan instead would say they weren't interviewed by the BBC, but they did have a statement that said Sheehan is committed to ensuring

the fair and dignified treatment of all workers within the supply chain and is investing tens of millions of dollars in strengthening governance and compliance. They also said that they set the highest standards for pay and require that all supply chain partners adhere to their code of conduct and that it

works with auditors to ensure compliance. I did hear from my BBC colleague in that investigation saying that they saw factory posters urging employees to report underage workers and child labour. And I want to bring Susanna in here. Why would she want to list on the London Stock Exchange? Well, it was hoping to list in the United States instead, but then run into big problems because of the tensions between the US and China in particular

and all these concerns about supply chain. Ultimately, it's targeting a valuation of around £50 billion or more, and that it will enable it to raise money through this listing to expand even further to other countries around the world but also to expand in the key markets it's already in. Now because of course it ran into a roadblock essentially this IPO in the United States it's

now eyeing up London instead but because of all these ethical concerns there is kind of a bit of a growing swell of investor caution towards sheen because fast fashion has increasingly become an ESG risk for investors the sector does raise serious questions and concerns about the sustainability of low-cost materials, the environmental impact and human rights, of course. And although many companies are really alive to these concerns, what is really concerning a growing number of institutional investors is the transparency. You know, there are risks in many companies. They operate around the world and there could be legal risks ahead but to what extent the companies are honest and upfront about those risks and what they're going to do to mitigate them i think that is the key question when it comes to this ipo and susanna you've mentioned their esg which the environment

environmental social and governance and investing principle that puts those issues at the forefront. But let me turn back to you, Natalie, because I mentioned that there was a committee hearing on this. They were about whether the Sheehan bid should go ahead. What did you think when you were looking at it? What were some of the questions that were raised? I found it extremely disappointing, but not really surprising. The lack of transparency from Xi'an is something they're kind of known for. They don't want to say anything audibly that they can be caught out with. Liam Byrne MP asked 10 times, you know, do you source your cotton in China? 10 times in a row. Literally 10 times. Literally 10 times I counted them. And yeah, in slightly different ways each time,

the first five minutes of the hearing was that and they just refused to answer the question, do you source cotton from China? And we know that 80% of cotton from China is sourced in the Xinjiang region, which is linked to forced labour camps of the Uyghur people. So it's a really important question and one that they should be able to answer.

And Sheehan previously has denied those claims of forced labour. The lawyer, as you mentioned, did decline to answer. And on sustainability, as we talk about those issues as well, they say through collective action that they strive to decarbonise the supply chain, source responsible materials and protect biodiversity and animal welfare. They say their operational teams and the supply chain partners are working to reduce the environmental footprint of products and facilities. But going back to you, Susanna, I mean, if they were able to list on the stock exchange, and I know there are these questions that Natalie has raised there along with Liam Byrne on the committee. Does it give them legitimacy and some of these

questions that are raised does it mean that they won't make it on the stock exchange? Well there's a process that they're going through right now that they've launched investor road shows for example to persuade investors that they are a company to invest in. But the FCA, the city watchdog, is looking into their plans for the listing. And it has to be satisfied that they are providing enough information to investors to analyse the risks ahead. Because Sheen really is a laggard when it comes to all of this uh reporting these standards in terms of environmental and social governance issues these esg issues that are increasingly at the forefront of investors minds and although the current trends in the industry are positive

sheen is is you know really behind the curve reported to to export 5,000 tons of clothing to the US every single day. However, the city watchdog, the head of city watchdog, has said, look, it's not up to the watchdog to look into the legal risks and turn down IPOs because of those potential risks.

But what it has to ensure is that there is enough transparency for investors to analyze those risks before they take a decision whether or not to invest in that company. And I think that's what's at stake here. And I think it's likely to slow down this process of the listing, but it's unlikely to derail it completely if Sheen can show that it is being more forthcoming in the future. Although given, of course, what happened on that committee last week, there were lots of questions still to be asked.

Yeah, and the IPO, the initial public offering, which would, when it lists. Going back to you, Natalie, you know, Boohoo is another fast fashion company. They've been listed on the stock exchange. Some might say,

like Susanna was mentioning, you kind of have to get your house in order. I mean, could it be a good thing if Shein was listed? I don't think it would be a good thing if Shein was listed. I think it legitimises what they're doing. And like I mentioned before, you know, the scale of what Shein is doing is vastly, vastly bigger than even the biggest fast fashion brands that we know of. They're responsible for about one fifth of the fast fashion market on their own, and they've not even been around that long. So

I think that we do need to get our house in order. And that's something that we should work on. There should be more pressure on brands from the UK to, you know, make sure that they are not exporting poor labour. And that's part of what the Business and Trade Committee was about last week. But I don't think adding fuel to the fire would help. I did also see in the investigation by the BBC that, you know, many of the workers were happy. They said they were happy working,

that they were paid better than they were in other places that were there. They also talked about it being very good for the local economy, just to put that fully in context. Susanna, back to you. What happened to Boohoo once it was listed? Well, interestingly, it was doing very well during the pandemic, of course,

because of that shift to online purchases. But then there was that investigation into its supply chain practices and its shares really have failed to recover from that, even though it made changes to its supply chain because of issues found at factories across Leicester. But also the dominance of Sheen really has been a real problem for Boohoo. So arguably Boohoo says it's had to really beef up its supply chain practices. And will She she be judged on the same level but certainly boohoo story shows that investors really can be very put off when a

company is shown not to take supply chain issues seriously so that story is one to be viewed in the light of Sheen's desire to exist in London. But there is an argument to say that an investment opportunity does lie in transformation. A Sheen listing could make the firm more transparent and accountable to shareholders. I hop in there. I know your line has deteriorated....appetite among institutional... Sorry, the line has deteriorated just a little bit there, Susanna, but you're talking about exactly what might happen if it were listed,

for example, when it comes to SHEIN and whether it would change its practices potentially. With the London Stock Exchange, we did contact them to get a response. They have pointed us

to a statement made last year by the boss of the London Stock Exchange, Julia Huggett, who said, if companies wish to come to our market, meet our standards and adhere to the level of governance standards that we as a UK market have, then I think the UK has the potential to be a home for them to raise capital. Just before I let you go, Natalie, you probably have something to say on this, but for people who say that clothes are too expensive and that's why they buy Shein? I'd say that the facts don't show that that's the issue. The average Shein customer is 35 years old, earns about 50k a year and spends 100 pounds a month on clothing. So it's not people

living in poverty who are buying exactly what they need that have caused Shein to reach a 50 billion dollar valuation. It simply isn't. We're all just buying too much. Natalie Binns, Susanna Streeter, thank you both so much. We'll continue watching that one. A couple of comments coming in. As a Christian myself, Bishop Rose is not helping herself

in her comments about well-being or cotterill. Many think differently. She would do well to acknowledge that. Being an apologist for them, it's very unhelpful and blinkered. That's Gillian Winchester. Another, Bishop Rose sounds like the exactly right person to be the Archbishop, if only the world would allow such a sensible

speaking woman to lead the Church of England. 84844 if you would like to get in touch. I want to turn to Texas, the US state, which has some of the most restrictive abortion laws in that country. These laws were introduced in 2021. So this was before the overturning of Roe v. Wade, which saw millions of women lose the constitutional right to an abortion. In Texas, abortion is banned in almost all circumstances apart from medical emergencies

as soon as there is a fetal heartbeat. And that happens at about six weeks. The law also offers $10,000 to anyone reporting an abortion provider or anyone aiding or abetting someone seeking an abortion. The law also offers $10,000 to anyone reporting an abortion provider or anyone aiding or abetting someone seeking an abortion. The American College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists says

some doctors are leaving the state of Texas because they do not feel they can provide safe care for women within the laws around abortion. We're going to hear a variety of voices. Dr Zoe Kornberg is one of the doctors that feel she cannot provide safe care. She was doing her residency training

with an obstetrics and gynecology program in Texas, but her personal experiences left her feeling she could not look after women safely. Zoe told our reporter, Melanie Abbott, why this made her feel that she had to leave. It felt like you couldn't even speak about abortion, that even talking about it with a patient could be perceived as helping them get one, even if that wasn't your intention or you were just sort of explaining to a patient what an abortion was. Not all pregnancies have a good outcome. Many women will experience a miscarriage or pregnancy complications other than a miscarriage before viability of the fetus, but well past the six week mark. And there were many occasions where we really felt like our hands were tied. And what did that mean for the care of the women you were looking after? When women would come in bleeding and cramping from a miscarriage,

for many patients, there came a switch where they were bleeding too much and the process was taking too long. And ordinarily, we would act very quickly, perform a DNC, a dilation and curatage, to evacuate the uterus and stop the bleeding. And instead, it meant that there were these delays. The law does not well define what an emergency is. And so we would spend hours jumping through administrative hoops, trying to get permission for this very simple, short procedure that would prevent an emergency from happening. We didn't feel that we could trust our staff because were they going to report us because they were interpreting the situation differently? Or were we going to have to wait and wait and wait until staff who was comfortable participating in the care came on call. And were the people who we were seeking permission from, the other doctors, the administrators, were they going to agree

with us? And then meanwhile, the patient is bleeding out. And that just feels horrible as a physician. You know, I went into medicine because I wanted to prevent pain and suffering for my patients. And here was a person experiencing pain and suffering that I knew exactly how to stop. I couldn't, I couldn't do it. There were days that were really demoralizing. And in any other state or context, that would be malpractice. But this law is forcing me to wait and wait and wait until the patient needs a blood transfusion, which carries risks and can cause complications, to wait until maybe the patient is infected. Maybe that becomes septic shock and she ends up in the ICU. It opens up the possibilities for permanent disability, longer hospitalizations, losing her uterus or her ability to conceive in the future.

It's a recipe for disaster. When you did go to the doctors and administrators above you to seek permission for these procedures. Were you mostly able to convince them that it had to happen? Yes, but it still caused delays. And it was actually more the other doctors at our equivalent level, the anesthesia colleagues, the nurses, who really had a lot of confusion surrounding the law. Did you actually have instances then when fellow colleagues would refuse to work with you for these kinds of procedures? Yes. There was one woman, for example, she was approximately 20 weeks gestation. Basically, she was going into preterm labor with a fetus that would not be able to live outside the womb yet. She was in agony, and we could not convince our anesthesia colleagues

to administer an epidural for her. Those were horrible couple of days. And was this when she was having to deliver a baby that would not survive? That's correct. And there was nothing that you could do to hasten that or make it easier? In any other state, absolutely. We would give her medications. We would help things take their course more quickly. And the patient was begging for help as well. It just, it just felt awful. How much stress were you under at the time? Because there was this feeling, as you say, that you could be reported or you could be overheard. Most pregnancies are OK. There was that happy moment where you bundle up the baby and hand it over. But, you know, when you get the call from the nurse that they've made their assessment of somebody who's bleeding and cramping at 20 weeks, please come see them. My heart would just drop because I knew it was going to bring up these conversations. Some nurses I

could trust more than others to understand that I wasn't approaching the patient to be a criminal, but there were definitely some other nurses who I felt that if they were very motivated, they could find a way to twist my words or try to represent me as a criminal. What about your colleagues, the other people on the residency program with you? What happened to them when the program closed? Yeah, so I was one of 15 residents.

Only three of the 15 stayed in Texas. Everybody else was spread out across the rest of the United States. Other than the three in Texas, everybody else went to states that were still allowing abortion. And I think that speaks for itself. That's Dr. Zoe Kornberg speaking to our reporter, Melanie Abbott. Well, I also got to speak to Dr. Stella Dantas. Now, she is the president of the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, which supports abortion rights. She told me that she believes health care is compromised in the 12 states that have introduced total abortion bans.

One situation of a patient in Texas, she was prescribed a medication that would help take care of her ectopic pregnancy and a pharmacist wouldn't dispense it. She ended up having a ruptured ectopic pregnancy, which is life-threatening, ended up needing a blood transfusion because people are confused and there's fear and anxiety. I mean, is it that there is a lack of education on exactly where the lines are? Is that what you're calling for? There's not a lot of support for people to, you know, understand. Every hospital doesn't have, like, a protocol of what we can do in our state that is clearly laid out. There's a fine line, like, when is sick enough for people to be cared for, right? That you can't legislate that. Again, physicians are trained to take care of every situation.

Anytime you restrict a physician's hands to do that, whether it is an abortion or any other sort of care, we are jeopardizing the health and care. The other thing that, again, would help is education for everybody of the laws and what they can do within their states. And also in terms of training, how do we support those trainees maybe to go out of state to round out their training? The Governor Greg Abbott, who signed the restrictive abortion laws,

was re-elected in 2022 after its introduction, which was the will of the people, obviously re-electing him. The former president and now president-elect Trump won Texas by a landslide just a couple of months ago and he says let each state decide their laws. If it is the will of the majority to have those politicians in power that are making those decisions for those laws, should it not be that the doctors follow that will? Doctors should follow evidence-based medicine.

Physicians are trained on how to take care of a patient. And legislative interference does not allow for the practice of safe medicine and safe medical care. The legislators, politicians cannot legislate, create laws that take into account every situation. Every situation with a patient is unique. Patients need to be counseled on all their options and would share decision making, make the best decision for them and their family. That was Dr. Stella Dantas speaking to me about how she thinks the near total abortion bans active in 12 states impact women. But this is, of course, a contentious topic and not all obstetricians in the States feel the same way. The American Association of Pro-Life Obstetricians and Gynecologists say that in their view,

the new abortion laws don't stop essential obstetric care for women experiencing pregnancy complications. Dr. Christina Francis is their CEO. Here she is speaking to Melanie Abbott. The actual guidance that I received from my hospital when our law went into effect is that our practice doesn't change at all from what we were doing before this law went into effect. We do not need to intentionally end the lives of our fetal patients in order to provide excellent care to women. And in fact, every pro-life law in the country allows for physicians like me to provide excellent and life-saving care to our maternal patients and to intervene when we need to, when our patients are facing emergencies. The trainee obstetrician that I spoke to

said that she felt that she couldn't do a DNC after a miscarriage until the patient was in an absolutely critical condition, by which time there could be a host of other problems appearing. There have also been instances of pharmacists, I'm told, not dispensing drugs for ectopic pregnancies. Yeah, well, I think that comment by that trainee shows that she has a complete lack of understanding of her state law. And I'm not actually holding her at fault in that. Who I would hold at fault in that is the American College of OBGYNs, as well as the people within that trainee's hospital system who should have

actually given immediate and clear guidance. Their law does not require immediacy of the emergency. It just requires that a life-threatening condition is foreseeable for that patient. And so there is no reason why any physician in Texas needs to wait until a patient is critically ill before intervening. And in fact, Texas's law does not outlaw the DNC procedure. It outlaws a DNC procedure used for an elective abortion. And the law is actually very clear about that. There has not been a single physician prosecuted when they have intervened in these kinds of situations where women are facing even potentially life-threatening

complications of their pregnancy. And in fact, even in the state of Texas, because they track their numbers, their abortion numbers since their law went into effect. And there have been dozens of terminations of pregnancy for medical, you know, medical indications where a woman is facing a life threatening complication. The American College tell me, though, that there is not a clear picture and that it isn't easy to provide that clear guidance. Texas law clearly states that a physician can intervene in whatever way they need to when a woman is facing a potentially life-threatening situation. And again, immediacy is not required. And this has been reviewed, again, by multiple attorneys. It's been reviewed in the courts and the Texas law allows for that latitude. What is causing the

problem is people that are looking at these laws and misconstruing what they say and not giving physicians clear guidance. Does it concern you that of the 15 obstetricians and gynecologists on a residency program in Texas, 12 of them decided to leave the state? It doesn't mean that their state pro-life law is what led to them leaving the state. It doesn't mean that their state pro-life law is what led to them leaving the state. There are many, many things that are impacting where OBGYNs are living and practicing right now. We certainly know that at least one left because of the laws though. Sure. And that is her choice to make. And again, if she wants to include elective induced abortions as part of her practice, then she needs to go to a different state besides Texas right now. Just because a handful of people might choose to do induced abortions as part of their practice and decide to leave a state doesn't mean that that's going to have a disparate impact on the

amount of OBGYNs who are available to provide essential health care to women. And speaking to our reporter, Melanie Abbott, was Dr. Christina Francis, the CEO of the Pro-Life Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, the American Association of that. Thanks very much to all the people that spoke to us on that contentious issue. We will continue to follow it. Now, something completely different. If you have walked through Pounds Park in Sheffield recently, You might have seen a 25 metre tall heron. Not a real one. But this very beautiful mural

created by the street artist Megan Russell. She's known as Peaches. Two Zs. And it's called Reverie. It's very beautiful. It's been nominated for the Street Art City's Best Mural in the World 2024. Let's chat to Megan. Or should I call you Peaches?

Why, it just sticks. Let us first describe it, so we begin to give people an idea of what we're looking at. Huge building, down the side, we have a heron standing majestically, we have a kingfisher exploding out of water. There's also a butterfly. But you're the artist,

so you can probably do a better job of describing it. So the piece basically is centred around the biodiversity of the canal systems in Sheffield, which we have a lot of. So I wanted to create a piece that would suit well with the length of that wall because it's such a tall, thin wall. And one of my favourite animals are herons as well. So it was a perfect opportunity to be able to paint something that's quite close to me in the centre of Sheffield. But you described it very well, to be honest. It's an explosion of colour.

I love it. I mean, it's something that is so impactful in the sense of kind of bringing us into somewhere so immersed in nature and greenery

and the blue, of course, of the water. And yet it's plonked on a city street just on the side where everything else is perhaps a little bit grey or beige. But what about, as I mentioned, getting nominated for Best Mural in the World?

Yeah, I know. It was absolutely crazy. So they have like a vote every month and they have like best of May, best of June. And I was very lucky to be nominated for best of June. And then people get to vote, the public get to vote on which piece will win that. And I was very, very lucky to win June. So now I'm put into this where it's the overall best of 2024 so yeah it's just been a wild year so far. Yes how is it to paint that some of the pictures and videos I'm looking at I can see the

scaffolding that goes up this wall do you design it and then get people to help you paint it tell me about the process and what it's like. Are people of Sheffield walking by saying, hey, what are you doing? I mostly paint by myself, to be honest. I had an assistant, my friend Bevan Enzo, who's an incredible artist, who helped me with Reverie. But I really like painting in that scale. It's weirdly quite quick, actually.

I find if I paint a canvas, it could take me still probably about five days. And Reverie took me 10 days in total. A lot of like intense hours, don't get me wrong. But how do you do it then? How do you know that you're putting the beak in the right place? So we use something called a doodle grid, which is similar. You know, you have a standard standard grid which is in square blocks it just takes a very long time to like set up and when you're like working on the streets you have

stuff like weather to contend with so like the quicker the better so we use a doodle grid which is quite a hard process to describe but basically what you do is you put loads of scribbles on the wall and it looks like an absolute mess and people freak out at the beginning do the public offer commentary yeah everybody's just like what is that and then you overlay the image on top of the doodle grid it's quite hard and then you sort of basically like a giant dot to dot and then a giant color by numbers wow amazing um are there many women in the field? Yeah, so there's quite a lot of women, I'd say. When I first started 10 years ago,

because I've been painting a long time now, I thought maybe there would be less, especially when I went to graffiti jams and street art jams, which I went to do a lot. I actually went to one in Derby. There was like 100 people, and I was the only woman and it really took me by surprise I was like is this seriously no other way but I actually think it's developed a lot over uh 10 years which is great to see um and I've had a lot of support um within the community as well I think it's more difficult

for people and women to access it if they're trying to get into it, because I guess you don't really know where to start. I think I was quite lucky and just slotted into it and it just happened. But this obviously will give a lot of publicity to it as well. Mentioning your name, Peaches, I know it came from your grandmother. You have a lovely story that it came from what you used to eat with her.

Yeah. So basically, when I was growing up, my grandma, Iris, she was a wonderful woman. And she was so creative. And me and and my cousins we would go over all the time and we draw like she just we would just play all the time and make things and like act and I think we're all very creative in the family because of her and sadly she passed away this week which was I'm so sorry I'm so sorry I imagine she would have been so proud to see that. Yeah, I'd hope so. But yeah, she used to feed me tinned peaches and ice cream. And I kind of used peaches as like an online pseudonym

for my love of peaches, which came from my grandma. Well, you know, I just got a message in. I walk past the mural most days and always stop and look. It is beautiful. Please thank the artist for me. I voted for her. We're so lucky to have her. Oh, thank you so much.

That's really kind. Isn't that lovely? We'll leave it on that. Megan Russell, also known as Peaches, and voting for the best mural of the world, 2024,

is open on the Street Art City's website. And that is until the end of January. Thanks so much for spending some time with us. I just want to go back to the interview we had previously about abortion laws in Texas. One of our guests, Dr. Christina Francis, alleged that the American College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists don't give clear enough guidance around abortion laws. The college themselves say that their guidance must be evidence-based

and state that access to abortion care must be left to the patient in consultation with their clinician. So I just want to be clear about that. Do join me tomorrow. We'll be discussing

the sticky floor phenomenon, why women can be reluctant to change jobs, to progress their careers due to the perceived risk that it could carry of destabilising their carefully constructed family and work arrangements and routines. That conversation coming tomorrow. I hope you'll join me at 10am for Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

Hello, I'm Robin Ince. And I'm Brian Cox. And this is the Infinite Monkey Hedgerow. He was unable to write a funny joke for the introduction. That's the reason why. The new series of the Infinite Monkey Cage. Science with funny bits. Science with bits. Funny science plus bits.

So the reason that the Neanderthals died out, you're claiming, is because they weren't astronomers. Is that right? Yes, exactly. This is how we investigate cybercrime. We look for the yachts. The new series of The Infinite Monkey Cage. From BBC Radio 4, listen now on BBC Sounds. The deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.