Woman's Hour - Black maternal health, Netball World Cup, Imposter Syndrome

Episode Date: July 20, 2019

Black women are five times more likely to die in childbirth compared to white women. We hear the personal experiences of two women: Candice Brathwaite who got sepsis after her caesarean section and Remi Sade who felt she was pushed towards a more medically managed birth than she wanted. We also hear from Daghni Rajasingam a consultant obstetrician from the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists.Clinical psychologist Jessamy Hibberd on her book, The Imposter Cure and listener, Claire Poole who runs two businesses on how she sometimes fears being found out as not really good enough despite doing her job extremely well. As the Netball World Cup draws to a close this weekend we talk about how the game has changed over the years with the BBC presenter Hazel Irvine and the former England player Sara Bayman. Three volunteers from the tournament, Caswell Palmer, Mandy and Hannah Cripps tell us why they love the game so much.The owner of Zara has announced that all the cotton, linen and polyester it uses will be organic, sustainable or recylcled by 2025. Tamsin Lejeune the CEO & Founder of Common Objective and Ethical Fashion Forum tells us about the significance of the move and what sustainable means in the context of a high volume fashion business.David Trimble, a leading figure in Northern Irish politics and joint Nobel Peace Prize Winner who now sits in the house of Lords, surprised the House this week. He stood up during a debate about Northern Ireland to say his daughter had married her girlfriend, even though he had in the past opposed same sex marriage and voted against it. Vicky Trimble and her wife Rosalind Stephens give their reaction to his speech.Presented by Jenni Murray Produced by Rabeka Nurmahomed Edited by Jane ThurlowInterviewed guest: Candice Brathwaite Interviewed guest: Remi Sade Interviewed guest: Daghni Rajasingam Interviewed guest: Jessamy Hibberd Interviewed guest: Claire Poole Interviewed guest: Hazel Irvine Interviewed guest: Sara Bayman Interviewed guest: Tamsin Lejeune Interviewed guest: Vicky Trimble Interviewed guest: Rosalind Stephens

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Good afternoon. In today's programme, imposter syndrome. Why do so many of us fear being found out as not really being good enough to do the jobs we do perfectly well? And how might it be cured? Netball is the current sport to be making the news in this extraordinary summer of sport. How might the modern game be different from what it was when you were at school?

So fast and so physical. So many goals are scored and I think that's the joy of it as a spectator that there's always something happening. There's usually up to 120 goals scored per game so there's never a dull moment and just some of the collisions in the England-Jamaica game kind of really dispel that myth of it being completely non-contact.

We'll also hear from the volunteers at the World Cup in Liverpool who absolutely love the game. As Zara announce they're to make sure their linen, cotton and polyester will be organic, sustainable or recycled, how significant is their decision in a huge global fashion brand? And David Trimble, his daughter Vicky and her wife Rosalind, why a leading Northern Irish politician changed his mind about same-sex marriage.

I knew I was gay, but I didn't want to know and I had a lot of gay friends and I kind of felt like it's okay for them but you know I obviously had a bit of a different upbringing. I was brought up with my father in the public eye and when I did tell my parents my mum did not seem surprised. My dad kind of put his head in his hands and was a bit taken aback. Disturbing statistics which were released late last year but received surprisingly little attention show black women in the UK are five times more likely to die in childbirth than their white counterparts. On Monday we heard from two black women about their experience of pregnancy and childbirth. Remy Chardet writes and podcasts about being a young mother,

and Candice Brathwaite is the founder of Make Motherhood Diverse. Dagny Rajasingham is a consultant obstetrician who speaks for the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists. First, Candice described what happened to her and her experience was deeply distressing. I was induced, which I find to be quite common amongst women of colour, and it was 19 hours of induced labour to only dilate to two centimetres. By that time I wasn't allowed to get off the bed or take in any food or fluid and I was like I can't physically bear this pain anymore and they wanted me to do a further 12 hours and I was like I sign out and I pushed for a c-section and I as we were being

wheeled down I remember the surgeon saying let's hurry this one up because I was meant to be home two hours ago and that I only hold that with me as the story develops so I'm discharged the next day um as the about three days in I'm starting to feel worse not better and I understand it's a c-section but I'm sweating through two-hour mattress I'm feeling really dizzy different midwives are coming to see me every day and I'm telling them how I feel but it's being written off as oh you're a new mum you don't understand you know this is very normal um one night we're so exhausted new parents I fall asleep with my daughter on my chest and I'm awoken by the most horrific stench and it's the smell woke me up that's how

bad it was and I thought my word I know they said new babies poo really stinks and as I stood up I felt fluid slide down the top of my thighs and when I pulled my tracksuit bottoms open it was black pus oozing from my c-section wound I'm blue lit back to the hospital I'm all I'm thinking about is my baby she's only three days old an hour later surgeons rush into the room they're like we're taking you down to surgery right now I'm like what's wrong they're like you're slipping into septic shock and if we don't sort you out now you will not see tomorrow. My daughter was born on the day my dad died. And he died of sepsis. And I remember thinking,

I kept telling you I didn't feel well. And everyone kept... Candice, that is just so awful. What have been the reactions of your midwife, who I know so happened to be black? She was really apologetic. I had a black midwife, an Asian midwife and a white midwife. I had three of them.

And she was really apologetic, as were everyone and I think at the time the trauma was just so overbearing because after that I was separated from my daughter for four weeks so I didn't get back into her life until she was five weeks old and it was just apology after apology but also a very um please don't sue us type vibe trying to apologize without accepting responsibility for what had happened and then once I did start to unpack the trauma all that stood with me was hearing that surgeon say let's hurry this one up how different do you honestly think it might have been if you had been white completely different different, completely different. I've had a friend who recently had a child via emergency c-section and she whatsapped me in the morning because we work

together and she said I'm really scared and I actually responded saying don't worry you're white you will be fine. Renny, how were you treated as you went through the antenatal period by consultants and midwives? labour as I chose, I was still referred to a consultant or referred to see my consultant who let me know that my child would probably be born with shoulder dystocia. So they should probably just book me in for an elective C-section. I wasn't even in my third trimester, like that conversation shouldn't have happened. Also, because of my age, and as you mentioned, socioeconomic status, I think they assumed that I was just unaware of my options and then I saw a consultant midwife who said to me that black women have a curvature in their spine which means that they have a predisposition to difficult labours which was also something that I just don't think

I needed to know. But how true was that? I don't know the truth is I don't know and the truth is that most women of a certain socioeconomic status, regardless of race, don't know certain things. But usually, the information they are armed with is quite different. And so I think that that had a lot to do with it. Let's just ask Dagny. Dagny, is there anything to support that assumption? differences ethnic differences in in the pelvic shape of women um but i think your your point is the information you were given the way you were given it and the timing of that information just was not appropriate and i also think if you know that there are differences in the pelvic shape then making a service which provides varied types of care instead of providing a service which is a one-size-fits-all when you as healthcare professionals are clearly aware that that cannot be distributed equally among different types of women when our bodies as your medical research has shown you does not respond

the same way to all types of care. How did it happen in the end because you wanted a home delivery? Yeah so after that conversation with those two healthcare professionals I was absolutely How did it happen in the end? Because you wanted a home delivery. no increased risk. And so I chose to go down the home birth route also because it meant that I would have continual care by my midwives if I was under the care of a home birthing team. My consultant remained the same. I ended up going into hospital for something else as an emergency and I met an obstetrician who was a black woman and that completely changed my whole experience as a pregnant person. And so I basically fought and I was like, I want to change my consultant. And at 32 weeks I did. And she didn't really change the information, but her delivery changed a lot. However, when I went into labour, my midwives were overrun and unavailable and there were other women

labouring. So because of that, I got given a midwife who I didn't know she came to my home I was in active labour I had a birth pool in my house that I'd arranged myself I was in labour for about I think 18 hours and then when I went into more active labour I decided I wanted an epidural I wanted to go to hospital and the ambulance came to my house and then I was like I need to push and I'd dilated from five to nine or ten centimeters in about an hour so they were like right you can't leave you can't go to hospital you can't get an epidural I was pushing for about an hour my daughter's head was not coming through the birth canal as it should have at that point things went very haywire I was put in an ambulance somebody injected me with something one of the paramedics I was rushed to an ambulance, somebody injected me with something, one of the paramedics. I was rushed to hospital.

And then when I got to hospital, long story short, I was cut with, like, you know, the episiotomy stuff. With no anaesthetic, I was screaming and I said, I can feel you cutting me. I was injected with some local anaesthetic and then I was cut again. And it was horrific. It was one of the worst experiences of my life. Daphne, how well are difficult, high-risk pregnancies prepared for and handled? I suppose it depends on the services and the service providers and where you're having a service and what sort of the higher-risk pregnancies that you deal with, you tend to deal with them better. And when I say better, I'm talking about technically. A lot of what we're talking about here is the really important, as Elsie said, human side of these experiences. Having an episiotomy without any pain relief

that should happen very, very, very, very rarely. It's a difficult thing to think about how do we provide these as you have very clearly said bespoke services a one one size fits all isn't the way maternity services should be provided and to some extent I think in the trying to have guidelines that so that we we know what we should be doing and most of the time means that there are groups of women who are not catered for because they aren't the middle of that normal distribution curve in terms of what generally tends to happen. And so making tailored and bespoke services and guidelines is important. And it comes back to Jenny's point about where's this information, where's the research and how do we use it? And do we inform the guidance or do we do it for the majority? And therefore we end up having potentially the situation that we're talking about.

I was talking to Dagny Rajasingham, Remy Shade and Candice Brathwaite. And Liz sent us an email and she said said I just wanted to say thanks for broadcasting this programme. I am black British and 28 weeks pregnant with my first child. I live in London and due to previous late term miscarriage complications I'm under the care of both King's and St Thomas. I've sent a link to this programme to my midwife and asked that we discuss it at my next appointment. I'd like the entire team that are going to this programme to my midwife and asked that we discuss it at my next appointment. I'd like the entire team that are going to be looking after my C-section to listen to this radio programme. Thanks again for giving me another opportunity to remind my team of the unbiased care we should all be given.

Now, a couple of weeks ago, we had an email from Claire Poole, who's a regular listener to Women's Hour. I wonder, she wrote, if you might consider featuring imposter syndrome. As a mildly successful woman in business in frequently male-dominated areas, I find myself very often feeling like an imposter. Well, Claire is not alone you often hear women and some men saying how much they fear that their inadequacy will be found out why do so many people who've done well and are perfectly competent at their jobs think they're only there by mistake well dr jessamine hibbard is a clinical psychologist and the author of the imposter cureure and Claire Poole wrote that email. Why? I find it a fascinating area. I run a couple of businesses and I call myself mildly

successful but when I'm invited especially to speak at events or put myself forward as kind of an expert in a particular area I find this nagging thought in my head that I'm not quite good enough or maybe not as good as everyone else who I might be on a panel with. And it's just I kind of rail against it because I've been invited to something on merit. I haven't asked to be there, I've been invited. But there's this persistent nagging in those scenarios and I think it seems to be perhaps more verbalized at least by women.

Why did you define it as imposter syndrome? Not being a clinical psychologist but just you know thinking about it myself there is that feeling of perhaps not being a fraud as such but perhaps not holding yourself up in the same esteem as perhaps the people who have invited you to give your views on something view you as. So I guess that's why I kind of put it in those terms. Jesmy, how do you define imposter syndrome clinically? The official definition was termed by Dr. Clance and Dr. Emmett in 1978. And they describe it as a phenomenon in which you don't believe you're worthy of success and you have a persistent belief in your lack of ability, skills or competence, despite evidence to the contrary.

It's interesting even just hearing Claire start in terms of saying, you know, I'm mildly successful running two businesses and being asked to speak at these events. And like you've picked up on what is it that makes you feel like a fraud? Actually, it's that interpretation of the feeling. You know, when you're doing something nice, standing up and speaking, particularly at a big event, you'll push out your comfort zone and it's natural that you would experience some discomfort. That discomfort's just saying, you know, can I do it? I really care about this and I want to do well. And what's key is how you interpret that discomfort.

And that's where imposters actually get it wrong because that's just human. Everybody feels uncertain at times. It doesn't mean that you're a fraud or can't do it. There are two terms which have been very familiar for a long time and I think clearly defined. Perfectionism and low self-esteem. How does imposter syndrome differ from those two things? Well low self-esteem and perfectionism can be part of imposter syndrome differ from those two things? Well, low self-esteem and perfectionism can be part of imposter syndrome, but you're not necessarily feeling like an imposter with both of those things. And the difference is that with low self-esteem, for example, you're worried you're not good enough, but then you do something

and actually take on board that success. So you see that you could do it even though you thought you couldn't. And with perfectionism, it's about having very high standards and wanting to do really well. Whereas with imposter syndrome, you might actually succeed, as I'm sure you have at those events, Claire, and yet you don't take it on board. And that's where the problem lies.

Anything that you're doing well at, you put down to external circumstances. You know, I just worked really hard or it was luck or it was just good timing whereas if anything goes wrong. Where does it originate then? I think that it does come from a feeling of not being good enough and that that belief actually. Where does that start? That generally starts in childhood so it can start you know depending on what you're doing so perhaps you get to university and you've always kind of been bright and top of the class and suddenly you realise there's lots of other people who are clever too. But more commonly, that kind of feeling starts in childhood, as when you're growing up, you well enough or that is critical of you, then when you do well, it doesn't fit with what you know about yourself. And also when you have mixed messages, it can be really confusing.

So sometimes people feel like you're doing well. Sometimes people are saying you're not doing well and you're not sure quite where you measure with it. Claire, what might have happened in your upbringing to to kick this off what this you know I find it really interesting because I could not have had a more supportive loving upbringing um in terms of my family and the way I was brought up always you know beyond you're good enough you're great you know you can do whatever you want you can succeed you can really take on the world I don't feel as though there was any any barriers to that for me. So that's fascinating.

And whether it's something more ingrained, I don't know, but I certainly couldn't point to that feeling around me. I wonder how common, though, Jessamy, that idea of humility, being told you must be humble, is there. And you kind of think it's a good thing that you should be humble and you shouldn't be showing off but then maybe that's having a real impact on you. I completely agree I think that it's really ingrained particularly as women that self-depreciation is a good thing and that you know owning your achievements or talking about them is something that you know you shouldn't really do and that makes you much more disconnected from your success and there's

something slightly unacceptable about it still now you you know, in some circles for women and I think that makes it much harder to talk about it and think about it because it feels like it's being boastful or arrogant whereas actually it's just acknowledging your strengths. I know, Claire, that you think this is more common in the women you know. Yeah.

Why? I've had a number of conversations about it and I think definitely I don't think it's something that afflicts women in its entirety a lot of male colleagues friends my husband etc all talk about the same things I think maybe we just verbalize it more I'm not sure but I think a friend of mine who's an academic you know she said she felt it a lot more at the early stages of her career and now now, as she's a doctor and published, etc., she feels those feelings have dissipated. Whereas for me, building a business,

it almost feels as though there's more at stake. So as you continue to succeed, it's almost, I don't know, kind of a career vertigo, where you feel as though you're getting further and further and it becomes a bit more high stakes, maybe. Jasmine, to what extent is there a gendered aspect to it? It definitely affects men and women and recent research showed that it's about two-thirds of women within the last year who've

experienced it and just over half of men and I think that also what feeds into it is a sense of belonging so the higher up you get in your career it's whether or not you feel like other people are like you and so for many women who are kind of at the top of their career or running businesses there are less of them and so they don't feel part of the core group. And I think there's also the second part of it is just you only hear what's going on in your head. So you're worrying and you're thinking you're not up to it. And you're judging how everybody else is doing from the outside with how you're feeling on the inside without really realising that everybody else is sitting there worrying in the same way. The book is called The Imposter Cure.

How do you cure it? I think in the book, there's loads of different strategies that I cover. But one of the biggest things is just really starting to internalise your success. So there is something you talk about and that you notice and you go against the voice that says you're an imposter. But if you talk about it, people will think you're showing off. But I'm not saying to shout about it. I suppose I'm just saying to talk about it with the people you care most about it and even to write things down, to really pay attention to all the good things you're doing.

And I think it's also important to externalise that voice and see that the problem isn't that you're an imposter, it's that you feel like one. And feeling like one doesn't mean you are one, there's all this evidence to the contrary. And when you start to become more aware of that voice, and what that what it's telling you isn't the truth, it's much easier to go against it. And speak up more or kind of go for the things that you care about. I was talking to Jessamie Hibbard and Claire Poole. One email said, what a revelation,

I never realised this was a condition, but relate to it completely. And email said, what a revelation. I never realised this was a condition, but relate to it completely. And Amanda said, I always remember this example with an awkward feeling upon completion of a hotel refurb for a client many years ago. I reduced my agreed fee, not because of any disappointment by any party, but because I felt I didn't deserve it, even though I'd worked hard. Friends at the time were shocked at the suggestion, but I felt compelled to do it. I didn't really know why. This was the 1980s and 90s, and me and a single woman with my own design business. It's the final of the Netball World Cup tomorrow, after 10 days of play. On Tuesday, Jane went to Liverpool and spoke to Hazel Irvine, the BBC sports presenter,

who's covering the competition for the BBC, and to Sarah Bayman, the former England player. She was there in the 2010 Commonwealth Games and she's the director of netball for Loughborough Lightning. How much has the game of netball changed in recent years? Netball's one of those sports that it's a completely different game at the elite level to grassroots. And so if you've seen school netball and then you see the international level here, it's almost unrecognisable.

It's so fast and so physical. So many goals are scored. And I think that's the joy of it as a spectator, that there's always something happening. There's usually up to 120 goals scored per game, so there's never a dull moment. And just some of the collisions yesterday in the England-Jamaica game kind of really dispel that myth of it being completely non-contact. Well, I was going to ask you about that, Hazel, because I guess some cynics might say

this is a game invented for women and girls. It's basically non-contact basketball. Well, it may have been that initially, but it's very much not the case now. I think we have to at the very least regard it as semi-contact because there's a lot that goes on. There's a lot you don't see. I have to say the umpires are very, very sharp and do see a lot of it. But such is their stewardship of the game that there's a lot going on,

but they do keep the flow of the game. So there is contact happening all the time, but they're playing advantage a lot of it, but such is their stewardship of the game that there's a lot going on but they do keep the flow of the game so there is contact happening all the time but they're playing advantage a lot of the time so you're not getting that, many of us will remember from school stop, okay, take the penalty stand beside her, off we go again it moves constantly it's very fast. There's been a lot of rule changes

probably in the last 10 years as well to help that flow of the game people have recognised that it needs to be spectator-friendly, that people don't want a stop-start game. And so the umpires have developed as well in terms of allowing it to flow and playing advantage and making it a more watchable game. Actually, the physicality thing, generally speaking, is going to have to be addressed, I think, Sarah,

because we've had injuries already to Leila Gusk of England. And even yesterday, Lisa Alexander of Australia the Australian coach was talking about the fact that potentially the physicality of this game is not properly understood and maybe we're going to have to try and relax the rules a little bit to allow substitutions to come in in these scores because it's terribly demanding on the knees the hips you're stopping and starting swiveling exact huge huge impact on the body yeah because you were allowed to what is the pivot pivoting that's it yeah you're allowed to pivot just explain that pivoting rule perhaps sorry pivoting's a funny one because it's kind

of gone out of the game but but basically with yeah but with the footwork rule you you're allowed to take one step and whatever foot you land on you can lift that foot up off the ground but you can't re-ground it so players can look like they're running with the ball if they take a step and then release the ball before they re-ground their first foot and then pivoting is sort of an I don't want to say old school

I don't want to offend you It's what we remember from school You just said it, old school like a knife through the heart Old school and sort of what you learn when you're a child and the basic level of how you turn without moving your feet. Can I just open the door here? People at home can just get a measure of just how noisy it is here.

So I'm just going to open the door. Live radio this. You can hear the sound. There are a lot of young girls here, I should say. It is quite high-pitched. Yeah, there's a sort of... How can I...? An oestrogen-based squeal of excitement. There we go.

Just a goal there scored for Fiji, I think. I think that was. And they're still beating Singapore by 53 goals to 40. It is heading towards the end of the summer term, so there are loads of school trips here today, and I think there'll be many more later on. Just very briefly, seven aside, games go on for an hour with with breaks and only two positions are able to score which is goal goal shooter and goal attack yeah and who is your

better scorer the attack or the shooter generally the goal shooter will score more of the goals but the best partnerships the best shooting partnerships in the world tend to have a more even split than the lesser partnerships. And actually we saw that at the Commonwealth Games last year Jane because we had Joe Harton and Helen Housby for England and they basically share the load a bit although I have to say Joe's done a bit more this time

but it was that sort of, they call it the H2 factor together and it sort of bamboozled the opposition and in the end it was probably key to England winning that gold medal last year which of course caused the explosion and excitement about this game right around the world. Well we are going to be talking later in the programme to

somebody who was the captain of the England team to Amma and she is unfortunately injured, not able to take part in this tournament but that was one of my favourite sporting moments I absolutely loved the last couple of minutes of that Commonwealth. I mean, you must have watched that, Sarah. Been a bit jealous?

Well, I was commentating. You were commentating even worse. Yeah. Well, I was jealous in terms of, you know, them winning the gold. But I was actually just so pleased that the years of work that had gone into that kind of finally came into fruition. Because for so long, England played off with Jamaica for the third and fourth spot. And to make that gold medal match and then win it on basically your first try was just phenomenal. Netball is having a moment, but women's sport is having a moment.

And actually, do you think netball is in a good position to thrive, bearing in mind that football is a game that is more widely understood, you could argue as well easier to play, and it's just there right at the forefront of the public consciousness in this country and always has been. It is, but I think you've got to remember, netball is the most played game in this country by women and girls. Still? Still, yeah. I mean, it is an extraordinary thing. And it's still the same situation in Australia and New Zealand. So there's huge numbers of women and girls playing it.

But I think also you talk about the consciousness of people towards this game. The England netballers won the moment of the year voted for by the public. You just talked about it yourself, Jane. And also the team of the year at Sports Personality of the Year last year. So it did create a huge, huge breakthrough impact from the commonwealth games and i think it's so important now that tracy neville and the england team build on that and um i think it was actually um i think one of the england players i can't remember who said it said wouldn't it be just tops if they could take the netball world cup to sports personality this

year and i got a bit of i have to say i got a little bit of a tingle when she said that i also think that it's it's a like there's a lot of women and girls in this in the UK and it's not a conversation we have around male sport you know or can can rugby fit in when football is so popular and when cricket's so popular you're right yeah I shouldn't have no no but it's a conversation we have a lot and and that's I think it's just a kind of shift in our perspective of rather than trying to attract people away from football why don't we just attract more people into sport generally i suppose i was just thinking we know that football is now over the next couple years is going to be offered to girls in all schools as an option and realistically it will be something

that's probably seen as a risk by netball that that if football does become the most popular team sport for for girls that netball needs to do something to to make sure that it continues to be offered in the majority of schools and that outside of schools girls continue to go to clubs and and develop along the pathway yeah um well put thank you very much sarah and just hazel i mean this this is a performance this is all bells and whistles this tournament tournament, isn't it? You are not going to be bored in this arena for very long. No, you are not, because there's halftime entertainment, there's even chat during the quarter time as well. It's all go. For the first part of the tournament, we've had actually two courts in operation throughout.

So even if you are here to watch England, there's always something happening on the other side. And I think that was something that the players actually had to get used to because there was quite a lot of distraction from the other court as well but just to follow up on Sarah's point I think it would be lovely, I know that we've grouped together a huge amount of elite women's sport this summer, changed the game rightly, which has been making

a huge impact, but I would love to get to a point where we talk about sport not just women's sport because it is all sport. These are an aggregation of world-class events who just happen to be played by women. And I really think it's important that we try and up the level and we see it on the same level as the men's sport

that we're used to watching all the time. Hazel Irvine and Sarah Bayman. And Claire said, after watching England play Jamaica this week, I was so inspired that at 53 years old, I've just contacted my local netball club for details of how to join. And Andy said,

my daughter played school, college and county netball up to under 18 age and was in the England training pathway. After playing, she came home covered in more bruises than my son, who played rugby ever did. Netball is a rough, tough, aggressive game. And don't get me started on the language.

Still to come in today's programme, David Trimble, his daughter Vicky, her wife Rosalind, and how a leading Northern Irish politician changed his mind on equal marriage. And as the Netball World Cup goes on, the volunteers who love the game. And a reminder that, of course, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at two minutes past ten during the week, you can find us on BBC Sounds. The owners of the fashion brand Zara have made an announcement this week about sustainability. They say that all the cotton, linen and polyester they use will be organic, sustainable or recycled by 2025. It's a very high volume fashion business with 64 shops around the UK and many more across the world.

So how significant is their announcement and how sustainable will they be able to be? Tamzin Lejeune is the chief executive of the business network Common Objective and the founder of the Ethical Fashion Forum. How important is this change? This is significant. Zara are part of Inditex, which is the third largest apparel company in the world. Over 1.5 billion pieces of clothing produced every year. So it's significant, it's meaningful. I think they've made major commitments in relation to the way clothes are produced and the fabrics that are used. What's important is not to miss the elephant in the room.

Which is what? Which is that with the volume of production, one of the major challenges with the fashion industry at present is that we are producing and throwing away fashion at a rapid rate and you can change the way fashion is produced but if you continue to produce very high volumes you're not addressing the root of the problem. But recycling is going to help that surely and that's one of the things that they say they're going to do. Yep recycling is important and I don't want to belittle the impact of what they're doing it's really important for several reasons going belittle the impact of what they're doing. It's really important for several reasons. Going out there and talking about what they're doing is going to be impactful for many other businesses, the CEOs of other companies sitting in boardrooms, everyone who

works within the fashion industry will be incentivized and motivated by this commitment. But what does sustainable actually mean when, as you say, hundreds of millions, quillions of garments a year are going to be produced? I think that there are two aspects to sustainability in fashion. One is the quality of the product and the production processes. So that's everything from how much energy is used in the process, how much water, reducing chemicals, reducing the impact of each individual item on the environment. That's quality.

And then there's quantity, which is often ignored. So you can reduce your impacts by 50%, but if you're doubling your production, then you're rendering that impact negligible. Now, in May, some MPs produced a fixing fashion report with measures to try and curb the polluting effect of the fashion industry. The government rejected those recommendations. So what would have prompted this move, if not political pressure? So yeah, disappointing that the recommendations were rejected. They had the support of the industry, leadership across the industry and a constructive and practical solution to move forward. I think the changes that we're

seeing Greta Thunberg saying starkly, this is a crisis and we need to act like it's a crisis has been taken to heart by thousands of professionals and people within the fashion industry for whom operating differently really matters. And they recognise that. So I think what we're missing, the real leadership I'd like to see in our organisation, Common Objective would like to see in our organization common objective would like to see would be those who are in positions of decision making looking beyond the quality issues and considering bold moves and we're a creative sector you know the fashion industry has some of the most creative minds in the entire world our job is design the process of design is creative problem solving. It's finding ways to get around solutions.

And if we as an industry can collectively put our minds to the biggest problem we face, which is the business model, what are the clever ways that we can change the paradigm, not just in relation to the way we produce and carrying on with the current model, but what clever ways are there to solve that? To make money, because that's all these companies are after, is selling fashion to make money. Yeah, the current model, which is producing a lot, selling it fast, encouraging consumers to buy again and again, is very lucrative. But there are alternatives, and an exciting one of those is rental. So moving beyond an ownership model, which does require a shift in mindset. And we've seen a shift in mindset in the past when fashion moved online, when net-a-porter began, people didn't really believe that consumers were going to buy fashion product online. We need the same sort of shift when it comes to the idea of you can rent a piece of clothing rather than owning it.

So how likely are other brands to follow Zara? I think very likely. I think the fact that they've made this bold stance is really important. Whether we'll see a rapid shift towards addressing the elephant in the room, that's the big question. How much sustainable fashion is actually on the market at the moment? We recently produced a report mapping the industry as part of the Common Rejective site, which looked at how fashion is produced. And that found that less than 1% of all the fashion sold on the UK high street is actively promoted as sustainable. So it's a very tiny proportion.

More than that is actually sustainable. And part of this, there's a lack of willingness amongst brands and retailers to talk about what they're doing. And this is why Zara's announcement is important, because our research demonstrates that the availability of sustainable project increases demand, increases awareness, it moves everything forward. I was talking to Tamsin Lejeune. Serena said in an email, three years ago, my New Year's resolution was to not buy any new clothes for one year, and to spend the time finding out how much waste is associated with buying new clothes. Three years later, I only buy underwear and work clothes new. I buy all my clothes from charity shops.

My reasons were that it's really hard to find any information about shops' environmental policies. So I concluded that I would avoid the industry altogether and I don't find it a problem. Charity shops are full of great clothes. It's really not difficult. I live in a village with two charity shops and most of my clothes come from there. And then Karen said a year and a half ago I took a decision to only buy ethical or sustainable clothing. It's revolutionised my shopping habits and I've mostly bought from charity shops. I've purchased far better quality clothing in more climate-friendly fabrics than I could have ever afforded before. My daughter has fully embraced the charity shop and is quite evangelical about it with her friends.

One area that I haven't managed to change is bras. Most ethical, sustainable bras do not come in cup sizes and never seem to fit me. Now this week we discussed the Northern Ireland Bill and the possibility that abortion may be liberalised there and same-sex marriage legalised. The House of Lords discussed the question on Wednesday and passed the amendments by a significant majority. A week ago, when the issue first went to the Lords, one rather surprising figure stood up in support of same-sex marriage. He's David Trimble, the former leader of the Ulster Unionist Party and joint winner of the Nobel Peace Prize for his role in the negotiations for the Good Friday Agreement.

He had previously voted against same-sex marriage, but... I have found myself taking a particular position with regard to same-sex marriage, which was forced upon me when my elder daughter got married to her girlfriend. Now, I can't change that. And I can't go round now saying I'm opposed to that because I acquiesce in it. There we are. Well, David Trimble's daughter is Vicky Trimble, who joins us together with her wife,alind Stevens. What did you make

of what your father said in the house? He used the words forced upon and acquiesced to it. I was a bit surprised that he used those particular words and I think he might have been a bit nervous about telling people. He has always been supportive of us. I think the way he treats our relationship, the way he gets on well with Ros, I think that speaks a bit louder than the exact wording he used. But also, I first saw it written down and I thought, oh, that is a wee bit harsh. But whenever I actually saw the footage of him in the House of Lords, I thought, well, actually, that's just kind of his way. Rosalind, what was your first encounter with the man who's now your father-in-law like?

The duvet experience. Wow, this is one famous duvet. It's getting a lot of coverage. Yeah, I went to the toilet and I needed a bit of extra warmth and not having a dressing gown, I used the duvet and came out and there he was. And I said, oh, I wasn't expecting anyone else here. And he said, neither was I. And so I promptly left after that. What was his response, actually? What did he say to you about it?

He didn't say anything to me. He spoke to my mum and my mum said to me that he was, I think the word she used was discombobulated. So, I mean, at the time I was living in my dad's flat in London and we thought we had the flat to ourselves. He was always coming back and forth from Northern Ireland to London. So when he walked in unexpectedly, we were a bit surprised as well. He knew I was dating Roz. I'd spoken to him and my mum about my relationship with Roz. So it was just kind of that, you know, we've got an adult staying with their parents and they're in a relationship and sometimes these things happen.

How difficult was it for you to come out originally, even long before you met ross i struggled with it and i struggled with it internally as well as with telling my parents for a long time i was like i i knew i was gay but i didn't want to know and i had a lot of gay friends and i kind of felt like it's okay for them. But, you know, I obviously had a bit of a different upbringing. I was brought up kind of, well, of course, with my father in the public eye. And when I did tell my parents, I have to say I'd had a bit of alcohol. We were having a debate about the same-sex marriage bill going through England and Wales.

And I felt at that point, you know, if I don't tell them now, I'm never going to tell them. And my mum did not seem surprised. She may have had a... I think she did have an inkling. And my dad kind of put his head in his hands and was a bit taken aback. But, you know, he's been fully supportive of me and of us and our relationships. He was very supportive at the actual marriage.

What role did he play, Ros, when the two of you got married? In Scotland, of course, not in England, not in Northern Ireland. Well, we're both part Scottish. Both our families had to travel to Scotland, so it seemed fair to do it there. And he played a very large part. I mean, my uncle gave me away, but he gave Vicky away. He walked you up the aisle, didn't he?

Yeah, he walked me up the aisle. He did all the father of the bride duties, gave a speech. Yeah, very touching speech. Very touching speech, yeah. Has he, Vicky, completely changed his mind? Or is this one of those examples where parents say to themselves, I'm not going to let my politics damage my child? I think he has changed his mind and I think that obviously he's been in the public eye for quite a long time and it would be a bit odd for him to treat me differently from anybody

else I mean I know it did take that personal connection for him to become more supportive, to realise that a homosexual relationship is just like any other. But I think that now that he's seen that and he's accepted us, I think that he is now more accepting of other people's relationships as well. Ros, how much did you actually know about your father-in-law and his take on same-sex relationships and certainly same-sex marriage before you met Vicky? I was very surprised to find out who Vicky's father was. Vicky said that her father was in politics and that was as far as that went so I really didn't have any idea

what I was getting into. Just a northern lass. Until it was too late. But how difficult has it been for you to reconcile your feelings with suspecting that maybe your father-in-law didn't entirely approve of what was going on? It's interesting because he's always been so nice to me and almost fatherly in a way because I don't have a father my father passed before I was born so to to find out that this is a new thing was quite surprising but he's always been very very very supportive yeah yeah how did the two of you meet we met on the south bank of the thames at a burlesque night we'd both joined a group there was an online group social group social group yeah yeah and they'd arranged an outing to burlesque night on yeah was it was it online group social group social group yeah and they'd arranged an outing to

burlesque night on yeah was it called Outer Belly back then I can't remember but yeah I turned up early

and I went through the list of people who were meant to be there and I saw Vicky's photo and I text well I messaged you directly through the app

and I said I'm here and I'm all alone and she said I'll be and i'm all alone and she said i'll be there in half an hour yeah and then we got on so well immediately that we didn't meet anyone else in the group and we've pretty much been together almost ever since the whole time ever since yeah so it was literally love at first yeah yeah it really was yeah it really was why were you so keen on marriage vicky Because you could have made a civil partnership,

which has been legal in Northern Ireland since 2005. For me, it was important to be equal to my siblings, to other people I know who've got married. And I know the legal status is pretty much identical, to be a civil partner and to be married but I wanted a wife I wanted Rose to be my wife and for me that that's an important distinction and Rose what's the distinction for you it just adds another level of security I'd never wanted to get married I was very much nope that's not for me and then being with Vicky that just changed and we we went to Barcelona for a weekend

away yeah um went to a jazz bar had a bit of wine and then by the way you're mentioning this bit of wine yeah well yes there was good jazz and good red wine and and we just started talking about marriage and both agreed that it would be something that we would be open to and came back. And then the weekend after, we went to Hatton Garden and came out with rings. It was like, oh, we're engaged now. I suppose this means we're engaged. It was very much a joint, mutual decision. Obviously, you had to warn your dad that you were going to appear on Womza this morning and talk about it.

What was his response when you told him? He told me to enjoy it. I don't think he expected any sort of the media coverage that we've been getting since he mentioned us in the House of Lords and he just told us to relax and enjoy it. How likely is it, do you think, Vicky, that the proposed changes in Northern Ireland will happen? I think now it is quite likely. I think it's very likely.

Whether it's before an assembly is reformed or afterwards, I mean, the assembly did vote on same-sex marriage and voted it up by a majority to implement same-sex marriage, but it was vetoed. So I think that now, and the coverage that the issue has been getting across the UK, I think it's very likely that we will have same-sex marriage. What do you think, Ros? I'm very hopeful we should have it. They should be there. Yeah. Very hopeful. I was talking to Ros Stephens and Vicky Trimble.

Now, as you heard earlier, the Netball World Cup in Liverpool is coming to an end tomorrow. And like so many great sporting events, it would have been difficult to make it a success without a small army of volunteers. Jane was in Liverpool on Tuesday and spoke to Caswell Palmer and Mandy and Hannah Cripps. Caswell still plays netball. How did he get into the game? My sister's playing netball so I used to just tag along with them to watch the game and it just looks quite interesting and it kind of reminds me of basketball when I first saw it and I thought oh yeah it's quite easy because I played basketball um well it certainly wasn't what did you what were the differences I think it was me getting my head around the fact that you can't run with the ball

and you can only have the ball for three seconds before you have to give it to someone else and you can't bounce it continuously and it was just like a plethora of different rules in comparison to to basketball so it kind of threw me a bit when I tried and my footwork was quite terrible. Was it? Okay well as our token male guest Haswell you can make the point that in fact this is not a soft game. Absolutely not well I mean I've been involved in it for nearly 20 years now. And the way the game has moved on, I mean, 10 years ago, in comparison to today, I mean, the athletes are just absolutely phenomenal. They're a lot fitter, stronger, a hell of a lot more aggressive. And you would want to think that, oh, it's a female sport,

so they're quite soft and nice and stuff. Not judging by what I've seen out there this morning. Not at all. And it's a testament to the girls because, or the ladies rather, they've put in so much effort. And netball is basically becoming a lot more professional. So, I mean, in Australia and New Zealand, you have got a professional league. And in England, you've got the semi-professional.

And also in South Africa. So it's actually moving ahead. So there's a lot of additional things. I mean, the nutrition that you have to think about, the intense training and loads of professionals have been brought in. So it's moved, I mean, five stories up, actually. Just in the time that you've been around. Yeah. Just looking at the score, it's Fiji

67 and Singapore 49. I've got to admit, when I first started watching this match, which started just after nine o'clock this morning, I thought that Fiji would win it easily, but Singapore have really stuck around. Is that something that you've noticed, Hannah, watching the games? That actually the standard is really high.

Oh, incredibly high. I think at this level it's got to be some of the games you've the standard is really high oh incredibly high i think like at this level it's got to be some of the games you've had quite quite a big difference in the scores whereas actually like a score in netball if you've got just a few points in it there's so much effort that goes into those last few moments yeah i mean they are they are gutsy performers and as caswell points out this is not a business they take lightly. Nutrition is obviously everything. Fitness would be everything for them as well. Just from your point of view, Mandy, you played at school, did you?

I did, yes, yes. Like me, I guess you don't recognise this as the game you played at school. It's somewhat a different game, yes. I mean, the speed is just phenomenal. And the girls are such elite athletes. But I do think it can be played at many different levels I'm I'm slightly inspired to go back you know there's even walking netball now yes um and I think probably it might be something I pick up when I go back home now you sound slightly hesitant if I can put it that way Mandy I think I'd want to go along and

make sure that I'm not letting myself down at sort of 50. Take a couple of mates with you. I think that's probably a good idea and I'm sure there are people of my age who are getting back into fitness and I think could be easily tempted to get back into playing something like netball at a different level than we're seeing here.

And as for the volunteering, honestly what do you get out of it? Because I bet that this is hard work. I mean your daughter said slightly dismissively you were in a back office role. What does that mean? Well at the moment I'm looking after the sort of VIP and hospitality suites which I thought would be very exotic. Actually it's just sort of pointing many people in different directions just making sure that people are happy but it's just about being engaged you get a lot of feedback from people um having a real buzz about seeing the sorts of sports that they're seeing at the sort of level that they're doing it and i think you're meeting lots and lots of different people just in terms of the pivoteers which is what the volunteers are called here as well as being out in liverpool and seeing the buzz that's in the city is just

really really rewarding. And you're picking up on that energy every week. Absolutely, yeah. I don't know, were you old enough actually to be inspired by the volunteers at London 2012, Hannah? Definitely. I think this is part of it where it started. I remember going into the 2012 Olympics and there were these people on almost the lifeguard chairs

telling jokes and my dad still remembers some of the jokes that they said. And it was just the atmosphere that they created and that they were really part of it. They were called the game makers and that was almost something that, I mean, it's definitely kept in my mind since the games. And do you think the athletes taking part appreciate your presence and the efforts you're making to be here?

Yeah, I think so. One of them got a hug off Tracy Neville yesterday, I've heard. Oh, there you go. Well, Tracy's,'s i'm sure she's the person to know certainly in terms of england netball caswell what do you think about that do you feel appreciated i do actually and um and well i work in the the training venue so i basically come in contact with all the teams and uh they're really appreciative and stuff stuff and always saying thank you and stuff and they're more completely open to taking pictures with us and let us feel like we're actually a part of it rather than just on the side volunteer and they're very approachable and stuff so

I think they really really appreciate the work that we we've done for them because we just makes life easier for them and they can just continue and just get on with their job which is to play netball. So you help I mean the women are out there training at what time in the morning are they training or is it late at night? They train as early as nine in the morning and as late as six. Okay so they keep at it throughout the day? Yeah they do. And in terms of nutrition what are they taking on board before they play? Well, they have to have a lot of fluids and obviously they've had the protein powder afterwards. Let me just open the door again.

It's the end of the game and Fiji have won 71 have won 71 56 well done fiji sorry caswell no that's fine um yeah i think well they the nutritionists ensure that the girls are taking in enough fluid because obviously they play such a rigorous sport and and even though it's a training session or if it's a match that intensity is really really high so they have to ensure that they put in a lot of fluids and then after the match then they have their shakes which protein to replenish their muscles. Does everybody have an

individual protein shake? I think it's I'm not sure if they are Could you just liquidise a load of chocolate cake and a couple of flat whites and give it to me? No, I think they're a lot more professional than that. Oh, are they? And they know exactly what their body needs to ensure that they do an effective job.

And also, they've got the right people around them also to ensure that they're on the right path. Yeah. Okay. And Hannah, has this inspired you? Oh, definitely. I think just being like you, the audience out there, just being part of the buzz. The amount of kids that come in. What it's like when England or Scotland play, Lord knows. I think just being like you hit the audience out there just being part of the buzz like the amount of kids what it's like when England or Scotland play lord knows yesterday was a nail-biting one

and just seeing the kids come in and just so excited about the game it's just really lovely to hear and I mean I I play netball but I mean I've now picked up some pointers now you'll be pivoting in a rather more stylish way. My footwork will be on point, I think. My coach will be happy to hear. What position do you play at? I'm goalkeeper. Are you?

Okay, and happy to stay there? Oh yes, definitely. I like everything to happen in a very confined area. I'm not going to run too far. Hannah and Mandy Cripps and Caswell Palmer were talking to Jane.

Now next week, Woman's Hour will be taken over by five guest editors who'll determine the choice of subjects to be discussed. On Monday, it's Nadia Hussain, who won Bake Off four years ago. Harriet Wistreich, the lawyer who led on the recent cases involving John Warboys and Sally Challen,

will be with us on Tuesday. Wednesday will be led by the campaigner Amica George, who started a period poverty campaign in schools. It's the Children's Laureate, Cressida Cowell, on Thursday, and Danny Cotton, Commissioner of the London Fire Brigade, on Friday. Join us on Monday. Stay with us right through the week to see what they all want us to discuss for today. Enjoy the rest of the weekend. Bye bye. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.