Woman's Hour - Black Narcissus - Amanda Coe, Cerys Matthews & Liz Berry, Xmas coping strategies, Power List Carolyn Cobbold,

Episode Date: December 21, 2020

New BBC three-part drama Black Narcissus tells the story of a group of Anglo-Catholic nuns who travel to the Himalayas to set up a school in an abandoned clifftop palace, which was once known as the 'House of Women'. Adapted from Rumer Godden's 1939 novel, the writer Amanda Coe joins Jane to discuss.Coping strategies over the Christmas period with the psychologist Laverne Antrobus.Carolyn Cobbold is No. 10 on the Woman's Hour Power List 2020: Our Planet. She's worked tirelessly to quite literally change the shape of coastal defence, leading the Manhood Peninsula Partnership to secure funding for the largest coastal realignment project in Europe. The musician and DJ Cerys Matthews tells us about her latest album 'We Come From the Sun' which involved collaborating with the Hidden Orchestra and 10 poets. She's joined by the award winning poet Liz Berry who talks about her track Christmas Eve.Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, this is Jane Garvey, and welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast on Monday, the 21st of December 2020. Hello, good morning. How are you? Probably about as chirpy as we are, so I canissus, which is in the very capable hands of the screenwriter Amanda Coe, being turned into a brilliant BBC TV adaptation in that period of time between Christmas and New Year. And Amanda joins us this morning on the programme. We've also got the poet Liz Berry and Keris Matthews, and you know they will both be excellent. And we'll talk too about, well, this is important actually,

the largest coastal realignment project in Europe is also on our agenda today. Please, please contact us, she said with a note of desperation in her voice. Someone contact me, 84844. That's the text number. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Check with your network provider for the exact cost of that. I think I'm looking this morning for your favourite fictional nuns, please,

because they are obviously involved in black narcissus, where a group of nuns go up a mountain and things happen, to put it very, very mildly. 84844, your favourite fictional nuns on social media, at BBC Woman's Hour, if you want to tell us about that. Or perhaps just your favourite novel involving a convent or anything of that nature. We can only really start with the situation in which we find ourselves and coping strategies.

So, in that spirit, Laverne Antrobus has been helping us throughout the last year on Women's Hour. She's a child psychologist who works with children and families. Laverne, good morning to you. And how are you? Morning, Jane. Well, I think, you know, I'm hanging on and I think I'm doing OK. Thank you. Yeah. And that we have to acknowledge that for every single person listening, this is probably the hardest time of their lives. Of course, I guess it depends on your life experience and how old you are. But this is a tough one. And is your advice that we all we should own that we shouldn't be going around

pretending everything's all right, because it isn't. I'm with you on that, because I think that actually trying to pretend that everything's okay OK really only gets you so far. And actually, you know, there's bumps in the road that you will trip over. So actually being able to take a moment, I think Saturday was a very, very big moment for lots of people, probably for everybody in lots of different ways to sort of take stock of what it meant for them personally and for other people as well. So I think there's something about taking stock for yourself, but also looking around you and thinking, so what does this mean for other people as well? So does that mean that actually you might well be doing yourself some good by going into the loo or wherever you can get privacy and perhaps having a cry

or just having a bit of time to yourself? Absolutely. I think that between now and the end of this year, there are probably going to be a few moments that people need to take because actually, you do have to do a bit of a check in with yourself in order to then find the resources you need to keep going and move on. Pretending that you can just punch through this isn't the way. Actually, what we've learned or what I've seen in lots of people that I've come into contact with and children in schools and parents is that, you know, hanging on to something about your own resilience that actually you might not have thought you'd get through this pandemic on all of the restrictions and everything that's gone with it. But actually, you have been able to do something. Now, I know that that's not going to apply to everybody. So there are always caveats to that. But actually taking a moment, having a bit of a weep and thinking, OK, now it's time to move on.

What can I actually do and manage over this period? I think it's very important. Many of our listeners will be caring for partners, perhaps for older people, for younger people. Let's say you're a parent of quite young children with all that heady excitement around Christmas. Do you try to avoid transferring your stress and tension to young people? Do you let them know you're having a tough time? Or do you slightly keep them away from all that? I think there's such a wide age range that, you know, people be encountering within their family. So I think for young children, I think go for it, you know, absolutely, you know, watch and observe and soak in their joy at this time. Because, you know, to have children

who are untouched by this in that way is something quite special. But I think for children that are older and for teenagers who perhaps are going through, you know, major birthdays, rites of passage, getting young people back from universities, I think we can't pretend that it hasn't been difficult for everybody. But actually, I think we do need to congratulate children, you know, that not everybody at home is going to be living with children, congratulate children for getting through the school term, congratulate students for getting through. These are remarkable things that people have been able to do during these really challenging times.

And also to give yourself a bit of a pat on the back, you know, particularly, you know, the challenges around economic circumstances. And, you know, as I've said, this doesn't catch everybody. There'll be some people out there who really will just need to take a bit more time and take stock of what's happened to them over these last few months. And for older people, older people who might really have been looking forward to seeing relatives, friends over Christmas, is there anything that, what can you possibly tell them that's of genuine comfort other than the hope, obviously, that the vaccine gives all of us and the chance of Christmas at Easter,

which I think a lot of people are trying to focus on? I think that's a really good idea. Christmas will be at a different time. Coming together will be at a different time. And I think, yes, we've got to hang on to the vaccine. I think we're going to be relying on the things that we have been relying on over the pandemic, more phone calls, video calls. I'm a great believer in receiving a letter. I think there are things that you can say in a letter that, you know, you can't necessarily get across in the telephone call. I think this is the

last chance to look out for neighbours that you feel a little bit close to and you just pop a Christmas card in with a little note, your telephone number, if that feels appropriate to say, give me a call. We've all got to sort of pull these little bits out of ourselves, which are, if I can settle myself, then I've got a bit of capacity for other people around me. And I think, you know, looking out for elderly neighbours at the moment, where you know, the usual set of visitors aren't going to arrive, even if you just go and knock on the door, take your couple of steps back, say hi, shout through the letterbox, put your telephone number through, these things are going to make a huge difference this Christmas

because it is so different. And those people who will be alone, and actually they are of all ages, what about getting through that day or those days? It can be a really challenging time of year. The 27th, the 28th, the 29th of December, they're blooming grim days, even in the best of times. They are. And actually, as you say, they're grim in the best of times when many people do the sort of the same old ritual of going to the shops. We haven't got that this year. But what we have learned and, you know, I'm looking out on a very rainy day here is that getting out does make a difference I can guarantee that you know the minute if I go out for

my walk today the minute I step over the threshold I'll hate every minute of it in the rain but coming back I will feel as if I've achieved something so I think you know trying to shake up your day those days after Christmas day are often as you say, very fraught with a lot of thinking about, you know, what one's achieved. This is such a reflective time as well, often, you know, that maybe there's some way in which we have to plan a bit more. I'm sure there'll be a bit more television, but I think phone calls, who do you rely on? Who's the person that you would go to, if your own own just to give them a call and get a bit of a bit of a pep talk from them so I think whilst there'll be those people doing that I think the rest of us who perhaps aren't on our own have to be ready to receive those calls and to be ready to

be supportive and put that supportive arm around people you know as we can. Yeah I mean reaching out doesn't come easily to everybody. But I guess the worst that can happen is that your offer of help will be rejected or ignored. And actually, in the great scheme of things, that's not the worst thing in the world, is it? Absolutely. I think that's right. So that's why I think, you know, I'm saying, you know, in your communities, in your neighbourhoods, you know, reach out to the people you feel you have a bit of connection with. Not saying that's a blanket thing, but you know, in your communities, in your neighbourhoods, you know, reach out to the people you feel you have a bit of connection with. Not saying that's a blanket thing, but, you know, putting your telephone number through somebody's door and saying,

if you want to give me a call, please do and seeing what happens. And actually, there's something about being thought about, which is fundamentally transformative. The idea that somebody is thinking about you often because we are quite resourceful as individuals we don't actually need contact we need to be thought about and I was out shopping the other day got my receipt from a shop and it said if you're feeling vulnerable if you're feeling that you can't cope call this number it was such a lift I didn't need to ring the number but it was such an enormous lift to think wow there are, there are people out there who are prepared to sit on the other end of the phone and take my call if I needed it. We have had conversations during the course of the last year on this programme, you know, I have never lived through anything like this.

And I think that's the case for so many people who don't have sort of war memories or bits and pieces like that. But I think how it's endured. But what I have been really buoyed by, I mean, the going back to school has had its own controversies. And I know that. But, you know know I'm somebody who goes in and out of schools meets with parents and actually the joy on children's faces in schools has really been quite remarkable you know seeing them in the playgrounds I mean it's absolutely frenetic you know social distancing and everything else but they are so pleased to be together to have something ordinary to hang on to to have the, to have the idea that they're with their teachers.

I, in the last term, have really felt, yeah, this is possible, this is survivable, because young people, and as I said, I wanted to shout out to university students, being able to get on with their lives in these different times hasn't been easy, I think has been a real blessing. Laverne, thank you, and thank you for all your help in 2020. Take care of yourself. That is the psychologist Laverne Antrobus. Just well, let's hope that helped some of you. It just helps me just to hear that rational voice. The world is wracked by a pandemic, says this listener.

Christmas is cancelled. The future is fearful. I'm a man driving in the pouring rain wracked by a pandemic, says this listener. Christmas is cancelled. The future is fearful. I'm a man driving in the pouring rain, surrounded by this misery. But Jane is talking about nuns on Woman's Hour. So maybe, just maybe, everything is going to be OK. Good morning, Jane, and all at Woman's Hour, says another listener. I'm not sure about nuns, but I do know Christmas is not cancelled. Christians will, of course, celebrate the birth of Jesus. Well, yes, of course.

And Susan says it's been a hard time for everybody, but we must keep things in perspective. My friend is in hospital with her 13-year-old daughter who's had surgery for a brain tumour. Well, yes, I mean, we have to remember, too, of course, you're quite right, Susan, that all sorts of other very challenging things are happening to people who are also going through the pandemic. Loads of great fictional nuns. So thank you you very much we will get to those a little later in the company of Amanda Coe who's going to talk about black narcissus. Keris Matthews joins us now, musician, presenter on Six Music of course and we also have the poet Liz Berry. They're here largely to talk about an album they've made together called We Come From the Sun which is out I think it's out now isn't it Keris? Good morning to you. Good morning Jane how are you? Well all right yes. How are you? Oh yes muddling through like everybody I think.

Yes the album is coming out on the 15th of January but there's a Christmas Eve story which is available now across the streaming platforms. And I was just listening to your guest there. I think that's what I find useful is the idea of trying to somehow find escape through films or books or stories, especially at this time of year. So any Christmas story. Any Christmas story. OK, well, in that vein, let's bring in Liz.

Liz, hi, good morning to you. Hello. Good morning. Now, where are you speaking to us from, Liz? Oh, from Birmingham. Beautiful, rainy Birmingham this morning. Actually, one thing we can say about today is it's not cold. That's a very positive way of thinking of it.

I'm just trying to throw something out there. Okay. Now, Liz, you have contributed, I think, a number of poems to this. We're going to hear a couple of clips. But first of all, Liz, just tell us a little bit about yourself and where you get your inspiration from. So I'm a poet from the Black Country and I love writing about that region. It's really beautiful dialect and language. And I suppose I'm just fascinated by stories about that

place. Okay and I think we ought to mention Keris that the album is made with the Hidden Orchestra now this whole concept really intrigues me so just tell me a little bit about the Hidden Orchestra. The Hidden Orchestra is a musician called Joe Achesison and the orchestra element of it is his collection his extraordinary collection of sounds that he's gathered over 20 years of snow melting in nepal or um sheds in in in say derby just a whole collection of the natural world industry suburbia that we were able then to access and use, as you would an instrument in an orchestra. And then you weave between these sounds, these poets, and the work of these poets. Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, with Connemara, one of Liz's poems, it begins with the sound of rain and a heartbeat that draws you in. Because the whole idea was, I love Peter and the Wolf. I always loved that as a child. And I love Richard Burton reading poetry, the play Under Milk Wood. Say Viola Davis, the actress, reading Langston Hughes. I thought Allen Ginsberg's another one, maybe some Rumi. You can really escape into these voices and into this extraordinary text. reading Langston Hughes. I thought Allen Ginsberg's another one, maybe some Rumi.

You can really escape into these voices and into this extraordinary text that's been written and that so much great writing is coming out in the world at the moment. And we wanted to put out an album full of these words and sounds ourselves. Let's hear Liz reading her poem, or a little bit of her poem, Connemara. I stepped out of my skin at dusk in Connemara, where bush crickets thrummed like pylons, and the lines smelled of tar and clover. What lay beneath was fragile, not yet ready for its season. The drizzle made sore music of my nerve endings.

I was beautiful to the crows as a butcher's window. In the vespers, I was glorious. Liz, that's fantastic. And the sound effects work brilliantly with it. How much did you know about the work of the Hidden Orchestra, Liz, before all this? Oh, it's been a beautiful new discovery for me. But it was so exciting to sort of work in collaboration.

I think as a poet, you're quite used to letting your poems go, letting them off into the world by themselves. So it's lovely to feel, actually, they're going to be in good hands. Can you just tell us a little bit about what inspired that? Did you have a moment in Connemara? What happened there? Actually, that poem comes from a pamphlet called The Republic of Motherhood. And the poem Connemara is about the day I found out I was pregnant with my first son. And I remember simultaneously

feeling both completely raw like I'd shed a skin and also as if the world was just ecstatically beautiful at the same time didn't you feel sick no that came a few weeks later all right I shouldn't judge everybody from my own experience. Oh, dear. OK, as we're in the Christmas mood, well, we're trying after a fashion, I want to play the next clip straight away, Liz, if you don't mind, and then you can talk to us about this. So this is a short extract from your poem Christmas Eve. Here we go.

Sleet is tumbling into the lap Of the plaster-cast Mary by the minger at St Jude's A face gorgeous and naive as the last Bilston Carnival Queen. In the Lowry's flats, opposite the cemetery, Mrs Shole is turning on a fibre optic tree and unfolding a ticket for the Rollover Lottery. The way I never had a bitter look in our lives. And upstairs, in the box rooms of a thousand semis, hearts stuttering and minds unravelling like unfinished knitting. I just think that is brilliant for the mention of the Rollover

and the Bilston Carnival Queen. Take us into that world let's tell us a bit more about that one so christmas eve is a poem um from my first collection black country and the poem takes the listener on a journey around the little towns of the black country on a snowy christmas eve lets us peep in the pubs and the houses and the back alleys and meet some of the characters who live there. And when I was writing it, I was really inspired by my experience as a child listening to the vinyl record of Under Milkwood, Dylan Thomas' Under Milkwood,

and just feeling spellbound by that gorgeous opening where you wander around the little town at night. And I suppose I wanted to make something magical like that for the black country is that because people by the way I love the black country um I think there's some the black country museum is one of the best museums I ever took my kids to I know it's I'm sure it's not open at the moment is it well nothing is but um there are some great great parts of it and the people are incredible but But it is a part of the country, Liz, well, you know this better than me, that other people slightly mock or just try to ignore.

They do and that's why it felt for me so important to make these poems which showed what was beautiful or interesting or tender or complicated about it. When I first began writing poems about the black country and using its dialect, I likened that to digging up the Staffordshire Hoard, this area where people think it's hilarious and grotty. All of a sudden, there was this field full of spectacular words and sounds and stories,

all just hidden in the muck. And I love the idea of lifting the region up and showing people actually how warm it is like how kind a region it is and some of the brilliant stories and history it's got. Carys this when you hear Liz speak it's transformative actually this stuff isn't it it really is it's very moving. From the i uh got familiar with her work i was a judge on the ford prizes several years ago i was mesmerized because i had assumed like many of us that there's one accent and it's the birmingham accent and and hadn't realized the sort of distinct nature of of the different dialects and and the black country itself and she's written a wonderful poem

about the vernacular and then also another poem called birmingham roller which was on her first collection and just the words you know bred to dazzling and backyards by men whose arms grew soft as feathers just to touch you cradle you from egg through eats justifying tumble little acrobat of the terraces. It's just, it's magical, it's mesmerising, and you can escape into it. And so I was so happy when Liz said yes, and that we could work together. Yeah, I have to tell you, Liz,

people are telling us on our interactivity board in front of me here, I can't believe I've just called it a board. I mean, it's a screen. Even I know it's a computer. Here's one from Cher. I don't normally care for poetry, but I like this. And actually, this is the point, Liz. To be perfectly honest, most of us don't find time in our lives for poetry. So how do you drag reluctant people like Cher, our texter, and people like me, frankly,

into your world to get people to appreciate what you can do and the power of wordsmithry Do you know I think poems often find people when they need them times when we're really sad, when we're lonely, when we're in love when we're grieving and I think

this has actually been a year for lots of people to discover poems and get some comfort and solace from them um but i think actually projects like this one projects that take poems out into the world and connect people and let people experience them in different ways i think that's an amazing way of of helping to join people and poems together liz it's been a real pleasure to talk to you thank you very much. I really enjoyed that. And Keris, Christmas music.

I was listening on the train this morning coming into work to the Tracy Thorne Christmas album, which I love. And to be honest, I do play it most Decembers. I think it came out in 2012. And there's a great track called Hard Candy Christmas, which is my favourite. But do you have a favourite Christmas album

that people could perhaps learn about this time round? I do. It's by Mahalia Jackson, and it's Mahalia Jackson's Christmas, and she's got this extraordinary version of O Holy Night. It will make you cry, though. But I find, you know, it's repetition and revisiting old favourites as well that make you feel good at this time of year. Anything by Louis Armstrong does it for me, I don't know why. But can I, Jane, before we say goodbye, there's this one line from

Liz's Christmas Eve poem. It ends like this. Although we can't ever go back or be what we were, I can tell you honestly, I'd give up everything I've worked for or thought I wanted in this life to be with you tonight. Keris thank you very much um that was fantastic just two brilliant contributors there Keris Matthews and Liz Berry and I can tell that loads of people enjoyed hearing from them that album if you'd like to look for it she says groping with the papers here is We Come From The Sun and as Keris says actually coming out in January um but I think you'll probably be able If you'd like to look for it, she says, groping with the papers here, is We Come From The Sun. And as Keris says, actually coming out in January. But I think you'll probably be able to find little extracts from it out there already.

Here's Leslie, who says, I've taken the dog out. The first achievement today, small but important to me. More to come. Yeah, well, as Laverne was saying at the moment, we've all got to treat ourselves relatively gently. And I should say we are here tomorrow. There is also an edition of Women's Out on Christmas Day. So the programme trundles on throughout the week and here as well on throughout next week, too, with our space programme, which I'm really looking forward to hearing. I've already done it, I should say, but even I'm going to be listening on December the 28th when we talk about putting women on the moon in the company, incredibly, of the flight director of that Artemis project to put a woman on the moon.

So that is the week after Christmas. Now, let's celebrate another woman on our power list for 2020. All about our planet. It is Dr. Carolyn Cobbold. Carolyn, good morning to you. How are you? Good morning. i'm fine i'm very fine in the circumstances and i love that last item it was fantastic even i enjoyed it and i'm here doing it i thought it was i thought people who just love the area they live in yes and i think covid has really helped that because people have because we haven't been able to go anywhere people have explored their own communities and where they live and suddenly found actually, you know,

they do live in wonderful places wherever they are. Yes, and all of us, we need to snatch at those little bits of positivity that we can take. And you're absolutely right. I think that's one of them. And rather wonderfully, of course, it ties up with exactly why you're here, which is your place on our power list because of your involvement with what is, I think, you can correct me, the largest coastal realignment project in Europe. Is it still the largest coastal realignment project? When it opened in 2014, it was. I think there may be a bigger one in Europe

because I've heard it referred to now as the second largest, but I can't tell you where the largest is now. But yeah, it was the first, the largest when it was opened. All right. Well, tell us then, Carolyn, about, first of all, about who you are and about your link to this place, which is a part of the Sussex Coast, isn't it? Yes, it's a peninsula that sticks out into the Solent or the English Channel south of Chichester so to the east of Portsmouth and it's

a very low-lying peninsula so I think at its sort of greatest height I know you'll be talking about mountains later but at its greatest height is about five to six meters above sea level um and it's got a very used to have the fastest eroding coastline in the country around selsey bill um uh yeah and it and it suffers from other water issues because it sort of sits at the bottom of the south downs so selsey is a village isn isn't it? Bill is the sort of outcrop, is that right? So Selsey, Bill, Selsey is right at the bottom of the peninsula. So I think it's the furthest southern point on the south coast. And Selsey is the small town at the bottom. And there's about 16 other settlements across the whole peninsula. Right. And so, but there are people living in these places and these communities are or were very threatened. Yes. Yes. So the coast is eroding and it's sort of shored up by shingle that's put on to reinforce the beach and the groins along it. And the bit where it was broken open to form the coastal realignment

didn't actually have any houses immediately behind it. And it sits between Selsey and Brackersham and East Wiching, which is the next settlement around. Right. So tell me then when you moved to the area and why you felt compelled to do something about this. Okay so I've spent my life this is the longest I've lived anywhere for 20 years because I'm an air force kid so we as a child we moved every three years and then my husband's an engineer unfortunately I had a job that I could move with it right so so I'd moved to a lot of

places and when I moved down here um I was shocked when I stood on the shingle bank um um to see behind the shingle bank it was essentially lower than sea level um and and there was sort of developments going on and there didn't seem to be an integrated long term approach to what was going to happen with the sea defence and then what was happening inland, as it were. And as a journalist and a researcher, I've written about climate change since the late 1980s. And this was sort of 97. So I sort of could see ahead. There were going to be issues and just wondered if anybody was actually focusing on that. And were they? Frighteningly not.

So I got talking to a friend of mine whose kids was at the same nursery and she happened to be living over here and was a Dutch spatial planner. Well, that was handy. And she said, gosh, you know, in the Netherlands, we would look at what we were going to do with the water first, obviously, and then decide how we were then going to develop the whole area. So we took ourselves off to the local authority, the district council, and chatted with them.

And then we took ourselves off. I don't know why we felt we could do this, but we did. Ourselves off to the environment agency and then and then the other districts so you have a district council and realize actually they were all doing their jobs but there wasn't any long-term strategic thinking about the area right um well what you did in the end was it seems to me to be somewhat counterintuitive but tell me what has actually been done now okay so we we brought the duck we brought a load of dutch people in who came free of charge and did a whole big week-long workshop um and we brought the locals in to meet them um

and inform them of their views and things and i think everybody thought well the dutch coming they can say build a massive dike keep the sea at bay and the general consensus was to let the sea in in the area where you could because by doing that you make a much more sustainable long-term sea defense and you also create important habitat because wetlands are one of the fastest disappearing habitats in on the planet and in Britain and actually they're the one of the most effective at absorbing CO2 so they're very useful when you're dealing with climate change issues and then we could create it as a tourist attraction to help the economy and make the economy much more resilient to whatever negative impacts are

going to be of climate change in the area uh so we wrote up the whole of the workshop and the document this was in 2001 and then eventually in 2014 um i mean i didn't do the work the ea and their engineers they contracted built the scheme um which basically was to build an inland bank further on and then just to break open the shingle bank. Yes, I was watching a film yesterday about this. And it's amazing because the water comes in, which, of course, was the very thing I thought you were trying to stop.

But if you manage it, there's a logic and in the end a beauty to it as you say yes and that shingle bank they they literally the ea had um big caterpillar diggers on the shingle bank permanently having to shore it up every winter so it was going to go at some stage and the trouble is you didn't plan for it going it the water would have just gone anywhere if you know what i mean yeah so yeah can i just ask i mean it's a brilliant achievement and things are presumably still going and it's it's much safer than it used to be but it the fact that it took you not a local to get this going and started was there any resistance to that uh oh yes um when you're trying to do something that is quite radical and hasn't been done before um of course there's going to be resistance and and and

to be fair you know the the farmers who farm below that, behind that shingle bank, and for generations, they had kept that land going by reinforcing the shingle bank for hundreds of years. So, so actually, it's quite a scary thing to say, you know, let's take a completely different approach. Let's do something else. Yes, we were just residents who lived there. Yeah. So, and I, and we were just residents who lived there. Yeah. And we actually had to bring the Dutch again back in 2008 because when the EA came up with the scheme that followed along the lines of what the Dutch had said, there was a lot of local resistance.

So we brought the Dutch back again. And when I say the Dutch, they were ecologists, engineers, planners so they were diverse people and then they did the same thing they said they did these workshops and said right if we keep the bank there this is what will happen in 50 years time. Well it must be very very hard to get that kind of thing achieved, but you've done it. And congratulations to you, somebody who's definitely earned her place. And a very happy Christmas to you. Sorry, Carolyn, I'm talking over you, which is very rude.

Dr. Carolyn Cobbold, who is on the Woman's Hour Power List 2020. She is the person who is responsible for that coastal realignment project near Chichester on the Sussex coast. Just in the interest of BBC Balance, Barbara says, honestly, I struggle to get this COVID Christmas drama. And this is quite funny, actually. She says, I never saw an apocalyptic movie where the narrative was, oh, no, the shops are out of salad leaves. My God, our local restaurant is closed. It's a pandemic. We are living relatively normal lives. Just have a peaceful time. Go on walks.

Be kind, says Barbara. Yes, and I'm sure there are plenty of other people who think along those lines. 84844 at BBC Women's Hour on social media. Thank you for all your favourite fictional nuns. A lot of people are mentioning Sister Michael in Derry Girls. If you haven't seen Derry Girls, change that. Probably later today after Woman's Hour is over. It is brilliant. Sister Michael is fabulous.

Rumour Godden's novel Black Narcissus. Well, the exec producer and writer of the BBC drama, which is going to be on the BBC, BBC One, nine o'clock, December the 27th. Amanda Coe, welcome to the programme. Good morning. Good morning. Have you read or did you know much about Ruma Godden and Black Narcissus before you got the call to do this? I knew the film, the Powell and Pressburger film,

which made a big impression on me when I was a film student. So I had a slight bridling at, well, why would you remake this masterpiece of cinema? I hadn't read the book. And then I read the book, which is also a masterpiece in a very different way. So I suppose, yeah, it was doubly daunting, but it was also very, very appealing. We're going to have just a short clip because poignantly, actually,

this version of Black Narcissus stars Diana Rigg as Mother Dorothea. And here she is talking to Sister Clodagh, played by Gemma Arterton. This is right at the very start of Black Narcissus. Mopu is a wild place. There isn't even a policeman there, just the general's agent, Mr Dean. If only Father Roberts wasn't laid low. Forgive me, Reverend Mother. If you put your faith in me, I know I can make a success of the new convent. I do so feel I was called to do God's work there, to bring education and enlightenment to such a remote part of the world. I know I can do it.

I, Clodagh. So many I's. We, Reverend Mother. Gemma Arterton playing Sister Clodagh and the late Diana Rigg as Mother Dorothea. Gemma Arterton's character, Clodagh, is an ambitious nun, Amanda. Tell me about her. Yes, the worst kind of nun, an ambitious nun. Clodagh's the youngest sister superior in the Order. She's been promoted early and Mother Dorothea feels

that she's not quite ready for the challenge that's presented itself for this reason of her ego, which you heard her saying so many I's. And, yeah, so going to set up the convent up in Mopu presents a challenge to her. Well, we should say this is a remote clifftop palace in the Himalaya, in India. What year is the book set in, actually? The book was published in 1939. I think the book is probably set about 1937. We've put it to about 1934. Yeah, so the 30s. And the nuns are very certain, of course, as we would not be now, we look at these things with new eyes, but the nuns are very certain that they are right and that they are here to teach and to teach the right sort of thing.

Yes, and to set up this school that nobody in the area really particularly wants to attend, but they've been donated the palace by the local general who's quite keen to try new things and also to use the palace for better ends than it was used previously. So, yes, they have a great deal of certainty. And then very quickly they realise that it's not going to really all go according to plan. No, I haven't. I've only watched the first episode and I'm simply I want to keep this. I want to cherish it. I'm also going to read the book.

I'm guessing it doesn't end well. What are the themes of this? Sexual repression, yes. Mr Dean, the man referred to by Mother Dorothea, is a feast for the female eye. And, well, can you reveal any more? Yeah, definitely sexual repression is a theme, but also, I guess, a power struggle about what it means to be in charge of both the community and to be in charge of oneself.

I think it's ultimately a story about self-knowledge and the dangers of um assuming authority when perhaps you you don't understand yourself particularly well um not just Clodagh but obviously the community as a as a whole and it's also a bit about understanding which part of that self-knowledge is understanding sort of where you come from and what your history is, your personal history. Yeah. Yes. Sister Clodagh has, we have flashbacks to her adolescence and to certainly some romantic experiences. And is she tortured by them? What's going on there? It's kind of an odd kind of ghost story in some ways.

It has quite a gothic, a powerful kind of gothic atmosphere. Is it Rebecca-esque in some ways then? I find it very, in my mind, it's very twinned with Rebecca. They came out within a year of each other. And that very intimate Gothic atmosphere, very differently played out in Black Narcissus, always reminds me of Rebecca. And I think it's because it's very much about the world of female desire.

And I don't just mean sexual desire. I mean, the way, you know know women define themselves through desire and find their identity and a lot of that gothic vein is to do in Black Narcissus with the palace as well as the landscape um so Clodagh is sort of haunted once she gets to Mopu she's haunted by her past in the way that she hasn't kind of reconciled herself with it. And Sister Ruth, who's much younger and more unformed than Clodagh, is haunted by what may or may not have happened at the palace itself. So it's a kind of double haunting. Right. It was a house of sin. What did take place in the palace or were we never actually told?

Well, I think you'll find out more by episode three, but it's very connected to the general's sister, Srimati, who, yeah, I think it's fair to say came to an unhappy end and had an unhappy life living at the palace, which was known as the House of Women. And yeah, I probably shouldn't say more than that in case there are spoilers for people. I'm sure a lot of people have read the book or are familiar with the film. Well, yes, no spoilers. Okay, a lot of people are mentioning Dolores. That was Whoopi Goldberg in Sister Act. Two Mules for Sister Sarah, now that's a good Clint Eastwood film, that was the idea of Bernadette. My favourite nun

in film has got to be the penguin in the Blues Brothers. Reminded me of the nuns I was taught by as a child says Owen. And Amanda Craig, the writer, says my favourite fictional nuns are the kindly ones who look after Madeline especially when she has appendicitis but also the silent Sandy in the prime of Miss Jean Brodie.

In about 30 seconds or so, Amanda, what is the appeal of nuns? Why are so many of us invested in stories about them? appeal about an enclosed community and an institution and the idea of self-denial and the accompanying eccentricity and also the wimples I mean it's a great uniform it looks great on screen particularly um so yeah all of that I think yes okay does it look good on screen in what way is it just what is it it encourages-ups. You're drawn into the face, you know, and the beauty of faces or the singularity of faces. It kind of strips everything away. That was Amanda Coe talking about Black Narcissus,

which is on the telly on BBC One, nine o'clock, starting on December the 27th. I know I do sound like I'm on Message Mary here with this BBC One, nine o'clock, starting on December the 27th. I know I do sound like I'm on Message Mary here with this BBC production, but trust me, it'll be just the job on the 27th of December. Great, great contributions from you today on every subject, but particularly fictional nuns. On Insta, my favourite fictional nun

is the very lovely Sister Boniface. She is the main character in two delightful books written by Fran Smith. Gentle, funny and full of hope, they are the perfect escape from Covid madness. I like the punishment nun in Father Ted, caught guiltily guzzling chocolate. Yes, Linda goes the traditional route. My favourite nun is most definitely Maria from The Sound of Music. I first saw it in London when I was 11, when it was premiered in Leicester Square. I think I've watched it at least a dozen times since.

As a bride, 43 years ago, I walked down the aisle to the same music as Maria on her wedding day. And I'm delighted to say that my 11-year-old granddaughter now loves the film too. You might recall, as I do actually, when The Sound of Music was first shown on the telly. It was definitely at Christmas and I think it must have been in the 1970s. It caused an absolute sensation. Everyone went bonkers for it. Right. To your thoughts on our first guest, the psychologist Laverne Antrobus had to say, Linda says, I love what Laverne said about the way children and young people are able to pull themselves along during the very worst times.

And if we're realistic, this is not the worst time. It is perfectly likely that the COVID-19 pandemic will be contextualised in our minds as a memory, much like poliomyelitis is to my generation. Yes, absolutely. Anne says, lighten up, lighten up. Things are far from ideal, but we're the lucky ones. We're still here. And if we just tolerate this Christmas, we have a better chance of still being here for next Christmas. Wise words. Jane says, one thing to be joyful about right now is that this is the shortest day.

Yes, it is, isn't it? December the 21st. And as we get into January, we'll be seeing the days getting longer again. To me, it's at least as important as the summer solstice. Isn't this why midwinter festivals around the world are all about light? Thank you for that. Geraldine says, sun can't come home, but already I have posted some stocking fillers. I've put petrol in the car. I've bought pork pie and tomato sausage and a bit of veg.

Then I'm off to the hairdressers, the bank and other bits and bobs. And it's only Monday. OK, yes. Well, that sounds like a string of achievements. This is more serious from Claire. My mum has been in lockdown since March with dementia in a care home. And I've had Covid for six weeks and I'm off work because I'm still not well. And I live on my own.

I work for the NHS. I was really looking forward to spending Christmas with my sister and her family, but now I can't go anywhere. So I'm on my own. Yes, it's awful, says Claire, but I've got food. My flat is warm. I've got the radio and the television. I have hobbies and I have Zoom booked and phone calls. If my mum can get through this and all the others much worse off than I, then I certainly can. I think the secret is one day at a time and keeping in touch with others, even if not in person. And from Hillary, I'm thinking of my daughter. She's 40 with three young children, age 16, 13 and nine.

She runs her own business and there are so many others in this situation. They are resilient, amazingly so. But actually, they have to be stingingly brave, as do theatre and entertainment people. It's such tough times, says Hilary. Yes, it is. I mean, maybe it's difficult to get the mood right, isn't it? I mean, I sort of punted this morning for this sort of let's just get on through. Let's not try to be too jolly type persona, which some people thought was right and other people said was too much. And in fact, everything's fine and we'll all get through this. And of course we will. It's just got to be honest. If you heard the news first thing this morning, it wasn't, you know, and it was shellacking it down with rain and very dark.

I couldn't find much reason to be cheerful. But I'll tell you someone who provided a lot of good cheer this morning. And that was Liz Berry. And people love Keris Matthews, too. But Liz Berry's poetry really hit the spot for many of you. Alison says, I have so enjoyed hearing those poems this morning. I'm a black country girl living in the Isle of Wight where it's also raining. And Liz's poetry took me home and blessed me for a while. Thank you, Liz. And lots of others in a similar vein. So

thank you to everybody who took the time to tell us how much you appreciated Liz Berry's contribution to the show today. Now, earlier on, I turned to my inspirational producer, Diane McGregor, and asked her what was on tomorrow's programme. And she just said, it's full of surprises, which means that she didn't know. So I'm just going to check in with her and see if that's changed at all. So what is on tomorrow? Oh, apparently we're talking about the women behind parlour songs. So that sounds like actually an interesting chunk of social history. That's one of the definites for the programme tomorrow. See you then. Before you go, I'm Miles, the producer of a brand new podcast

for Radio 4 called Tricky. This is how it works. Four people from across the UK meet up and without a presenter breathing down their necks, talk about issues they really care about. Sex work is quite complicated for a lot of people and it's OK to be against it, but not to, you know, shame someone because of their profession.

Across the series, we'll hear anger, shock and even the odd laugh. Another thing that really gets to me is when people say, I know what we need to do. I know what black people... Shut up. You don't, like, that's the thing. That's not how it works. Nobody knows.

If you knew, you would have done it. Discover more conversations like this by searching Tricky on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.