Woman's Hour - Black Women and Human Rights, Film Diversity, Tracey Crouch MP

Episode Date: September 14, 2020

According to the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Human Rights, three quarters of black women do not feel the NHS protects them equally. That's the findings of a poll it commissioned on being Black in the UK. The poll also highlights Black women's thoughts on their human rights and the police. We hear from Celine Henry who's one of the researchers, and the Chair of the Committee, Harriet Harman, MP. Famous film awards are trying to improve their diversity with new rules. We discuss how effective it'll be with Mariette Rissenbeek who's the Executive Director of the Berlinale and Tolu Akisanya who's a journalist, film publicist and part of The Culture Reel podcast.The sculptor, Bridget McCrum, didn't start her career til she was in her forties. Now 86, she's still working with stone and in the last 10 years has had more interest in her work than ever. One of her pieces recently sold for £68, 000. Tracey Crouch is an MP based in Kent. She used to be Sports Minister but resigned two years ago because of the Government’s stance on fixed-odds betting machines. During the summer, she announced publicly that she's got breast cancer. She says that her going public has persuaded others to get examined.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Woman's Hour podcast for Monday the 14th of September. Good morning. In today's programme, lots of changes proposed for award ceremonies in the film industry. The Oscars will only reward films that pass their diversity tests and in Germany, the Berlinale

will make its performance awards gender neutral. What difference will the new rules make? The sculptor, Bridget McCrum, she began her career in her 40s. At 86, she still works with stone and now has more interest in her work than ever. And the MP encouraging other women to check their breasts. Tracey Crouch on her reasons for going public with her cancer.

A poll in which black people were asked about their human rights treatment by the police and by the NHS was commissioned by the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Human Rights. The results have confirmed something we've spoken about on Women's Hour before, when we talked about the fact that black women are five times more likely to die as a result of pregnancy and childbirth than are white women. The new poll shows that three quarters of black women feel the NHS does not protect them equally. Well, how was this survey conducted and what will be the result of what it demonstrates? I'm joined by Harriet Harman MP, the chair of the Joint Committee on Human Rights,

and by Celine Henry, who's a researcher for Clearview Research. Celine, how was the research conducted? Well, good morning, Jenny. Lovely to be here. So the research was done using polling, focus groups and interviews to conduct the actual sample size. And the sample size were about 515 black people aged 16 and above across the UK. And in that we had 213 men and 299 women. And then of course, we had one person who identified as transgender and two non-binary. And in order to sort of achieve that sample size, we used, you know, existing databases from previous research that

we had undertaken within the black community and who have taken part in our other research studies. And what would you say are the most significant findings in the case of women? Yeah I must say I think we were quite surprised with how much surprising findings there were with women. We found that there was a disparity between the males and females in terms of their interaction with the NHS and the police, and of course, in general terms, their human rights. So in terms of how they felt about the human rights, their human rights being protected, and their health. So, you know, men who were interviewed often described their fair experiences with the NHS. Whilst women sort of expressed more concerns, I have two examples from the interview where from the interviews I conducted where there was a young lady who looks after her mum with MS.

And she sort of in her caring in her caregiving role, she sort of exclaimed that, you know, there's been times where her mum has been neglected. And she has compared it to, you know, the fact that she can see that her other white counterparts have not. And I have another woman who mentioned that she was, you know, eight months pregnant. And it wasn't specifically with her. But what she found out was that she saw another black woman who didn't have a great command of english and the way this person was treated um it was likened to somebody who had mental health issues now when you appeared in front of the committee you said some of the women you interviewed felt they were seen as less than in inverted commas stereotyped or part of a quota what did you mean by that yeah um so i mean there were certain prejudices or acts that you know when we think of them we think of you know maybe men in large groups or you know men behaving badly but what we

found was that you know there were women actually who were mentioning that you know they've been treated quite badly by the police um so in in one instance there was a young lady who is black and she's from kent and she mentioned to her her friends that she had been stopped and searched um by the police when she mentioned it to her friends they were quite shocked her friends were white they were quite shocked and they realized that they were not familiar with with this idea completely so this had to do with um the whole idea that you know they were expressing that things are quite diverse um especially in education some people felt that they are just part of a quota so in that sense maybe they don't get the necessary discipline um required or the necessary support and attention. What have you concluded are the reasons behind the problems you've uncovered?

I think we didn't set out to find out reasons behind the problems. And this is especially the case in the polls, given that the questions were quite close ended. So, you know, most of them would be merely speculative or from a personal opinion as a black person myself um and you know many people try to explain different things but i think there are myriad of reasons um it could be sexism classism and often maybe black people being seen as homogenous um and just maybe their daily interactions i mean mean, I had an encounter this weekend just seeing my mum interact with a pharmacist where you could see that, yeah, sometimes these things are just unconscious biases.

Harriet Harman, how worried are you by these findings? Well, I think they're a real wake-up call and I think that the government should consider them very seriously, the NHS should and the police should because I think what they do is they challenge another number of assumptions. I think it's widely understood that there is a poor relationship between young black men and police and that exhibits itself amongst young black men feeling disaffected with the police but what Clearview's research showed is that the feeling amongst women in relation to the fact of them not being treated as a black person

fairly compared to the police is even greater than amongst men. So that for all black people, 85% felt that a black person would not be treated fairly by the police in the same way a white person would. For women, that figure was not 85%, but 91%. And in the NHS, because of so many black women working in the NHS, I think it could have easily been assumed that there would be a sense that black people would be treated equally within the NHS and their lives equally valued. But whereas amongst all black people, 60% felt that they wouldn't be treated equally by the NHS, amongst women, that figure was 78%. Now, you know, that is something that the NHS should really address. And you've reported about the maternal mortality gap.

That is that black women are five times more likely than white women to die in pregnancy or childbirth. And yet when we had evidence before the Joint Committee on the Human Right from the head of NHS maternity services, they say what a terrible thing it is, that gap. But they don't have any target to actually narrow the gap and to end it. So I think really there needs to be a recognition that something is really wrong here. There's a great sense of inequality and it's not for black people to address it. It's for the institutions themselves to address it. So what pressure can your committee that commissioned

this research and now have the figures, what pressure can be brought to bear? Well, we'll be reporting soon and we'll be considering all the evidence that's given to us. But I do think that one of the things that the police should do is they should recognise that they actually need to have targets for narrowing the gap of trust that there is between black people and white people in the police. We're supposed to police by consent. But if part and Lambeth Police Force, I've asked them over the years to do polling so that instead of them just feeling comfortable and assuming that they've made great progress over the years, they actually do recognise the reality of the situation. So I think that we need to have routine polling to check opinion amongst black people. And this is an unprecedented set of polling that that clear view has done and

i think they've done an incredible job routine polling and then targets should be set for narrowing the gap you can't have a situation where people in this country black people feel that their human rights are just not as valued as white people and one of the things that should be done is the implementation of findings of government reports instead of them just gathering dust. But to what extent, Harriet, can you enforce that? You know, reports, polls are shelved. Well, I think that there's a big decision for all of us as to whether or not when there is this clear evidence in front of us, we say, oh, well, they think that, but they're wrong. Or we think, well, they think that, but there's nothing we can do about it. Or we think, right, what are we going to do about it?

And I think it's a challenge for each and every one of us. And I think that when the evidence is put forward in the report by the Joint Committee on Human Rights, which includes this polling, you know, it's a question of whose side are you on? Are you on the side of an equal and fair society where everybody feels equally valued? Or are you prepared to countenance the sort of discrimination that people feel. I mean, the fact that 91% of black women feel that a black person would be less favourably treated by, less fairly treated by the police is really striking and no doubt goes to the fact that for women, they internalise the problems of men in their family and that never ends. A mother's concerned about her sons, a grandmother's concerned about her grandchildren. Harriet Harman and Celine Henry, thank you very much indeed for being with us this morning. And if you have the sort of experiences we've been hearing about, you can email us or indeed you can tweet us about it. We don't have to use your name if you don't want us to.

The Venice Film Festival has just finished with awards handed out on what appear to be pretty traditional lines, best actor, best actress and so on. But in other areas, there are big changes afoot in the film industry. The Oscars have announced that as of 2024, a film will only be allowed to be submitted as Best Picture if it fulfils two of four demands, which require actors, storylines, people in positions of leadership, publicity and marketing to be truly diverse.

And internships, apprenticeships and training must be paid. In Germany, in 2021, next year, the Bellinale will have eight Bayer Awards on offer, but they will be gender neutral. So no best actor or actress, but a best leading performance and a best supporting performance. Well, what real difference will it make to what will be seen on screen? Early this morning, I spoke to the journalist Alou Akisanya, who hosts the Culture Real podcast, and to Mariette Rissenbeek, the executive director of the Berlinale.

Why has she made the decision to leave gender out of it? Well, in the past years, the discussions have been a lot about the role of men and women in the film industry in general. Then we had the Me Too debates, and we have the fact that more people refuse the distinction between male and female roles which led up to us to the decision to not make a distinction between male and female actors anymore and put one award instead of two different awards according to gender. How easy was it to persuade other people who were involved in

making that decision that this was the right way to go? Well, you know, in the film business, all awards are gender neutral, whether it's camera or photography or directing. So it was not that difficult to convince other people that making the award to the same level and the same quality as the other awards in the whole festivals or award ceremonies. It seemed quite natural. Tolu, what do you make of what's planned for Berlin? Initially, I didn't have an instant reaction because, again, with the other categories um being gender neutral um but typically having male and female separate categories for acting um you know conjoining those two i do think you know we may have a bit of an issue where in an industry that's historically

underserving women will there be um more nominations and votes toward that's male skewed um you know will it um negatively affect you know um female actresses or female actors um so initially that you know there are some some thoughts that may maybe need to be fleshed out i do know that um i know that the festival is committed to featuring equal number of male and female performances for this award. So in a sense, it could be, you know, something that future festivals do. So it could be something positive. Mariette, it may happen that all the awards go to men.

How worried are you about that? All the awards go to women. That's like, I understand the hesitant reaction of some of the female industry members, but I do think contributing to the discussion and enlarging the sensitivity for this question, for the role of male and female roles in the industry, I think it's a good way to keep this discussion alive

and make people aware of it and make people aware of the issues. Toled, there are plans for the Oscars as well. How, at the moment, does an Oscar nomination happen? So at the moment, there are different branches, different voting branches for each category. And each branch nominates their own category. So editors nominate editors and actors nominate actors.

Cinematographers nominate cinematographers. However, for the Best Picture nomination, everyone under the Voting Academy votes for that. And that's how we get our nominees. There are a bit more of a complex weighing system, how the nominations are narrowed down to the four or five nominees within their categories. But that's the, you know, I guess the simplification of it.

What's your reaction then to the latest Oscar news that there will be four new rules for Best Picture and they have to have passed two of them yeah um so initially we um i did have some concerns um i know that the the requirements are to help encourage representation on and off screen and to um reflect um the diversity of the movie going audience. So initially the idea of it is quite positive and it is, um, you know, quite forward thinking and trying to be inclusive.

Um, you know, we're sort of like the backlash of, um, you know, Oscar, so white, um,

again, initially it is a good idea. However, I think because the new requirements are based on, initially, it is a good idea. However, I think because the new requirements are based on the BAFTAs, what we've seen from the BAFTA diversity requirements that they introduced, I think, last year or a few years ago, what we've seen is that this doesn't necessarily make a change to the nominations. Last year we saw the nominations for Best British Film being dominated predominantly by white men and predominantly white films. So I think there needs to potentially be more done behind the scenes and within the requirements.

Again, sort of there are films that can tick a few boxes, a few of those diversity boxes, but still be predominantly white. So is is this enough basically to make any real changes? Maria, what's your view of that? How much diversity are you going to force filmmakers to include in their films simply by saying, no, we won't just have gender specific prizes, we'll just have a best performance? How much is that going to affect the thinking of people who are making films? Well, I do think we live in an industry which is very alert to the changes in society. So I think these kind of decisions festivals take make the industry also more aware of the issues which are a concern of many people. But of course, we want to encourage the industry to think about it more and to work in a more diverse way. It should be a contribution to this. Within the Berlinale system, both the selection committees, the juries,

and also the leading heads of departments, we have a very good 50-50 male-female contribution. So we do think changing these processes and making sure that women have a strong voice in all the decisions taken should contribute to a more, or ideally should contribute to a more diverse cinema. What about people of colour? You say you've got 50-50 male and female, but are there lots of people of colour? Within the Berlinale, well, Berlin is not such a diverse city maybe as London or New York or Los Angeles is.

The German history is a bit different, but we do have also people of colour in some of the selection committees as well. But of course, that's not a 50-50. I cannot even say it's a 50-50 there. That's something we're working on as well. Tolo, how likely is it that filmmakers will take these changes seriously and say, yeah, this is the way things are going. We have to change. I would hope that it does encourage filmmakers to take it seriously, because that's the initial intention. However, there are opportunities where filmmakers can

submit their films, which, you know which meets the bare minimum. For example, I think Disney's Mulan, which is currently on Disney at the moment, it has a largely white creative team. However, it would still qualify under the new requirements just based on the production company diversity initiatives. So it seems like there are ways around meeting these requirements, which doesn't initially help women, people of colour or those with disabilities.

So what I do hope does come from this is that, you know, organisations, production companies, filmmakers do think about who is on their teams, who is part of their crews and how they can help diversify that a little more rather than just typically having what they normally have, which is a predominantly white and male crew. I was talking to Tolo Akisanya and Mariette Rissenbeek. Still to come in today's programme, Tracey Crouch, the Conservative MP for Chatham and Aylesford, and former Sports Minister, announced earlier this summer that she had breast cancer.

As she continues her chemotherapy, what impact has her going public had on other women? And we begin a new serial, Lifelines. And then on Friday, we're going to be discussing what happens when you waive your right to anonymity. You might have done it to get justice or to speak out about something you feel needs to be put right but what were the consequences of doing it? If you've done it we'd really like to hear from you. All you have to do is drop us an email. Now Bridget McCrum

was in her 40s when she began to work at her sculpture. She'd trained at art school in Fairham, had gone on to marry a naval officer and had three children, so her art was rather put on hold. Well, she's now 86, working with stone, and in Devon is where she works. She's become more successful than ever, and she joins us from there. Bridget, good morning.

Good morning. What lifestyle, Bridget, were you leading as a young wife and mother that meant the work had to be put on hold? Well, the Navy at that time didn't mix well with the wives doing anything at all, except being perfect little wives. But I also decided that we were out in Malta when I was first married in the 50s. And I thought, I won't have any children now. I will wait until I get home. And then I can travel around the Mediterranean, which I did. And I went to all sorts of exciting places and it was wonderful. I really enjoyed it. So what inspired you to begin in your 40s?

Oh, well, I always knew I wanted to get back to it. When I was a five-year-old child, I had this A4 book and it had two little black and white photographs in it. And one was, I think it's at Baalbek, but it may be in my imagination. Because I have been there, but it was a long time ago. And it was a ram's horn capsule with a ram's head on top of it. And the other one was the Colossus of Memnon at Luxor. And I just remember as a five-year-old thinking, oh, I want to go and see those. And I don't think most five-year-olds want to go and see lumps of stone. But what was so attractive about lumps of stone when you were only five? I don't know. I was fascinated by them, obviously. And so I always had to make things all my life.

You know, when the children were growing up and I decided not to start working whilst they were small because they're not around for very long and I think you need to enjoy them whilst they're there. How important was your husband in promoting your work? I think he did have a role in it. He certainly did. I mean, he'd be well in his 90s now. And it's quite unusual for men of that age. But he really, you know, he said, you've supported me through my career, I'm going to support you through yours. And he really pushed it and entered a couple of things into the Royal Academy when I was out with a friend surveying the coastal settlements from Mogadishu down to the Kenya border in Somalia.

And he put two things up for the Royal Academy and they both got in. And so it sort of started from there, really. I got four exhibitions out of it and that's how it all started. I wouldn't get in there now. Why not? Because I'm not cutting edge. I'm not cutting edge enough.

Now, I know you have a friendship with Elizabeth Frink, who I think has been supportive of you how did the two of you come together well at the beginning of the war I was sent down to Exmouth age six to get out of the Blitz because my parents were my father was in the army and my mother was in London and we went and lived with this woman who gave a home to the children of Indian Army parents and the little boys were all at prep school so she had us girls in the term time and I arrived there age six and a week later Liz arrives age 10 so and then we re-met again and you know she commissioned a piece of me after she saw pieces in the Royal Academy

and she was incredibly supportive. Wonderful. How aware were you when you were such little girls that you were both interested in sculpture and stone? Well, I don't think Liz was particularly interested in stone, but she certainly made sculpture. Actually, I went back after the war. I was taken away when they bombed Exeter sculpture actually i went back after the war i was taken away when they bombed exeter but i went back after the war and after we'd finished our prep liz and i and one other used to sit around the dining room table drawing horses

because we were totally horse mad and liz's were big black horses with knights in armour on them and very dramatic. Now, I know you used to make rather more figurative work than you do now. It's more abstract now. What is this? Are you trying to become more cutting edge? No, I think my fascination is with the travels I've had. I've traveled in Mesopotamia, Egypt, Sudan, Somalia, and it's sort of things I've got very influenced by that very early stuff,-history pre-Greek and all that I'm I just love the way they um they could have made things perfectly but it was part wasn't part of the culture at the time it was how they wanted to make it at least that's what I think. Now, how easy is it to continue to work with stone, which is not a light material, as you get older?

Well, I get hefty young men to help me. And they seem to... I mean, I've got a couple of people who are very helpful and I couldn't be doing it without them. But they come, you know, I do quite a lot of it. And then they come down every now and then and I get it roughed out by a nice man called Dominic Welsh who lives up on North Dartmoor. And there's somebody called Mick Chambers who helps me a lot he'll come and um and he's he's very good got a very good eye both of them are wonderful always handy to have

strong young men to help you I suspect Bridget McGrum thank you you have to spend the day giving them coffee and lunch absolutely Bridget McGrum thank you so much for joining us this morning and the best of luck with your continued success with your sculpture. Thank you. Thank you very much. And so to another of those objects which we treasure, not necessarily because they're vintage or antique or even expensive, but because they're reminders of people or events that have been really important. Today, Sally Hughes speaks to the beauty industry specialist Caroline Hirons. To be honest I can't remember how I came into them. I think I probably stole them from my mother.

My grandmother died in 2014, but she was in a home for about ten years before that. So we would have emptied the house in the early 2000s. And we have a bag of her negligee-stroke 90s that I think she hid from me on purpose today so I couldn't show them to the BBC. And her gloves. And she was that kind of generation you know she was um incredibly

stylish wouldn't leave the house you know she looked like sophia lorraine i do not get my build from my grandmother incredibly petite always immaculately turned out hence having a bag of gloves and i think i own woolly gloves and i don't even think i wear them during the winter because i can't be bothered so it's from that whole era, that whole different generation of you weren't fully turned out unless you had gloves and maybe a brooch. Maybe a hat. She wasn't a big hat woman. My great grandmother was. We had all our hats when she passed away.

So maybe you lose an item of an accessory as the generations go on. Yes, perhaps. And how many pairs of gloves do you have, do you think? I don't know, maybe about 20. Wow. About 20. Long evening ones, short sort of ones with like a lace trim around the handle that she would obviously wear when she was going out.

She didn't drive, so she would obviously be in the passenger seat holding her handbag. And the black ones are worn out. So the black ones are obviously her day-to-day scooching back and forth on the bus into town because she lived in Liverpool so scooching back and forth on the bus to work and then obviously the evening ones have the odd splash of what looks like coffee a splash of good times exactly of fun exactly you didn't just inherit 90s and gloves from your grandmother. You inherited an industry.

You inherited a family business in a way. Yeah, we did. Things I do keep out of hers are, we have things like a Lalique Coty tray that they made for their top consultants in the 60s. So she was a beauty consultant? Yeah. Sorry, I was assuming you had psychic powers there at home. She was indeed a beauty consultant and so was my mother

and then I started on the shop floor too. So it was an industry that I kind of grew up in despite the fact I didn't actually work in it until I was in my 20s. But yeah, I have her sort of training certificates on the wall in my office and all of her paperwork from when she worked with Girlan. And so all that kind of thing I keep out and I frame and I've taken care of. But, you know, clothing that actually smells of her. Yeah.

You know, if someone washed it by accident, I would throttle them. Yes. Yes, that would be horrible, wouldn't it? It would be over. It would be sacrilegious. Completely. Now, you store these gloves in a very specific manner, don't you? Well, they came, I sort of received them, stole them, sorry, mother,

in the original carrier bag that my nana kept them in, which is disintegrated. Yes. So the whole lot, I thought, well, I can't throw the carrier bag away because that's the smell, they smell of her. So the carrier bag is in a Ziploc bag. And then the Ziploc bag goes into one of those airtight bags that you use a hoover to suck the air out of so when you open it it's like this explosion of oh I can smell nana I was

terrified bringing them into the West End because I thought what if I mean I never lose anything I'm borderline OCD I have zips on anything everything and I was like what if I leave them somewhere I'm going to get a cab home and hold them on my lap. What do they, I mean, as you say, gloves are quite an outmoded thing and they don't fit you anyway. They're not something you can use. But are they something you use for comfort? Do you open that bag when you feel like you need her near you? No, this is literally the second time I've opened it since I got them.

Why, to preserve her? To preserve the smell. I don't want it to smell like me. I want it to smell like her, you know. So her nighties smell like her and the gloves smell like her. To preserve the smell. I don't want it to smell like me. I want it to smell like her, you know. So her nighties smell like her and the gloves smell like her. And I said to my mum when I said I was doing this, she went, well, don't open the bag for too long because I need to smell her when I come down. Quote.

We're not a very sane family, but it's fine. And what would it take for you to open the bag and inhale? Would it need to be a really difficult time for you to waste a go on the gloves? No, because I don't. I mean, to be honest, my grandmother's stir such an emotive reaction. And me, my mother, my aunties on my father's side. This is my maternal grandmother. But my paternal grandmother has the same effect. They were such a strong influence on all of us in the family that, you know, proper matriarchs.

But that warm and loving traditional grandmother that mum and I can barely have a conversation about it without welling up so if I smelled her when I was thinking about her upset it would tip me over the edge yeah so I tend to get them out when I'm usually because it's one of those things that you put somewhere safe and then you forget you've put them somewhere safe and you find them when you're looking for ironically probably my winter gloves and then I forget you've put them somewhere safe and then you find them when you're looking for, ironically, probably my winter gloves. And then I'd probably just crack the bag and go, and then do it up again quickly and go,

oh, I can smell her, and then carry on. Caroline Hirons spoke to Sally Hughes. Now, earlier this summer, the MP for Chatham and Aylsford and former sports minister, Tracey Crouch, announced she had breast cancer and said she was going to face it with her studs up. Well, she's now a couple of weeks into chemotherapy and joins us from her home. Tracey, hello.

How hard a decision was it to make your cancer public? It wasn't that hard at all, to be honest with you. Part of me just wanted to crawl under the duvet and not tell anyone at all. But I live in my constituency. I use the local services and frankly, the people who elected me are my employers. And so I felt that they had a right to know what was going to be happening in terms of their representation over the next few months. But also I was going to be sat in oncology with my constituents. It wasn't going to remain a secret for very long. And I wanted to have control over the timing of the announcement rather than somebody potentially going off to the newspapers so it wasn't a difficult decision

but it's also given me an opportunity to use the platform that I do have as a member of parliament to encourage others to check themselves and to get the treatment. What effect do you reckon you have actually had? I think some people have been in touch with you, thanking you for talking about it. They have, and it's really kind of them to have done so. And I hope that people did look at my statement, asking people to check themselves and not be afraid of getting treatment

during these difficult, challenging times within other parts of the health service and somebody was kind enough to email me to say that they had just had their surgery and they had checked themselves as a consequence of my statement but I don't want to overplay it as well because although I hope I had an impact it perhaps just happened to be something that was on somebody's mind and encouraged them to do something differently. But, you know, that's why I did it. I mean, I wanted people to go out there and check and I wanted people to not be afraid of seeking treatment during COVID.

How did you find the problem? I had been out cycling in the morning and I'd come home, I'd had a shower. There was, you know, I hadn't checked myself. I jumped into my son's bath in the evening because I was a bit achy from my cycle ride. And I just found the lump there. And I have to say it was quite obvious. It was in the upper part of my breast and it was protruding slightly. Like everybody, I sort of went through that rollercoaster ride

of thinking immediately the worst and then thinking, no, perhaps it's just something else. And I got my other half to feel as well and he definitely said that he could feel a lump. So I booked myself an appointment to go and see a consultant and have it checked out formally. So you got an appointment and a diagnosis see a consultant and have it checked out formally so you you got an appointment and a diagnosis quickly i i assume if you went straight to a consultant and i know

i know you said i did and then actually you know one of the one of the things about the consultant is she was absolutely brilliant she checked the lump and and she was like no i'm i'm highly certain and that's the brilliance of specialists is that they see this every day. And, you know, part of me was wanting her to say, no, it's OK. You know, out of 100 people, only four. And, you know, give me all these stats about all the other things that it could be. But at the same time, she was pretty brutally honest and said, no, I'm pretty certain that this is something that needs to be checked out further. But you know an MP and indeed you know when this happened to me I was quite well known as a as a

radio presenter it's kind of easier to get in touch with the right people. How concerned are you that because of the pandemic others number one may feel they can't go to their doctor the doctor might not be able to see them they're scared of the virus or the virus has actually caused delays well well there's lots of different points in that question and and i can completely understand that i had to go and see a doctor during the pandemic about a stomach issue and and had the telephone consultation and the telephone consultation absolutely led to me having to go to see the doctor because he couldn't examine my tummy over the telephone and I think that's the same with any kind of lump. GPs are experts in doing this and the referrals are there

for a purpose so I think that actually if you are brave enough to make that call, you will get referred straight into the system and you will be seen to as quickly as possible. And actually, many trusts across the country, including my own, have kept these services open. I appreciate not every trust has done that, but many trusts have kept their cancer services open throughout the pandemic. But it is having that sort of kind of initial bravery to do so and i completely understand people's concerns about this i've been to see the doctor um uh and and you know was really worried about the doctor thinking i was some sort of crazy hypochondriac by sort of kind of you know speaking again about a different issue and so i completely understand why people are wary of doing that but you know it's like we both have

platforms where we can say to people please do check yourself because actually if you do and you get into the system and get treated quickly then the outcomes you know are going to be much better for you now I know you've had surgery and you're now in the chemotherapy stage how is a keen sportswoman coping with chemotherapy challenging um i've only i've had one session out of eight um and the first few days sounds a bit groggy um but yesterday i managed to go um on a a bike ride um I was going to say a little bike ride, but it was about 26 kilometres. That's a big bike ride, 26 kilometres. It's little for what I'm normally used to doing, but my oncologist is actually a very keen sportsman himself, and he has looked at services around the world,

and actually other countries really advocate participating in some sort of physical activity as world and actually other countries really advocate um participating in some sort of physical activity as a means of improving your outcomes through treatment um so i continue to try and remain as active as possible i'm not as active as i was um but i do think that it helps both physically and mentally uh to remain active. What did you make of the publicity that we heard, I think it was last Friday, about a new blood test, a liquid biopsy that they say can detect the cancer without an invasive biopsy, which I used to joke, I call it the golden shot, that invasive biopsy. Well, it'd be wonderful if they can do that i mean

people who've had biopsies on any part of their body in particular breast you don't know that it is something that is not particularly pleasant and you do brace yourself um for it um although actually my radiologist was making me count uh or take away eight subtract eight from a sort of series of numbers so one time my i was mentally trying to work that out in my head. She'd done this and I hadn't felt a thing. But it is challenging. So anything that can reduce some of that I think is brilliant. The other thing I'd love to see is some sort of progress in the MRI scans because, you know, sort of sitting in the tube with your boobs

hanging into a horrible cavernous sort of kind of machine is not something that's particularly pleasant either. And, you know, I think anything we can do to sort of kind of help this. The other thing I'm really interested in is genetic testing of cancers to see that people who need chemotherapy are the ones that actually have to have it rather than just putting everybody into blanket chemotherapy because I think that will not just be better for people but I think it's best for you know the health service and the economy as well. Tracy Crouch thank you so much for taking me back to those years 16 years ago when I went through all of that and the very

best of luck for you thank you as well because you've been doing this for many many years and i just want to take this opportunity to wish you very well on the next part of your venture and we're going to miss you very much on women's hour thank you very much and good luck with the rest of your treatment i was talking to the mp tracy, and Sue got in touch by email to say, I too found a lump about a month ago and start chemotherapy this afternoon. I've been telling everyone and anybody, including male friends and acquaintances, to examine themselves regularly. I'm only too grateful and relieved that I've found my lump.

We must not shy away from these issues. An email from someone who didn't want to be named on our first item about black women and human rights said, The police broke down my brother's door and arrested him in front of his young children. They came to his house on incorrect information which could easily have been checked via official documents. This would not have happened if he were white. They have no interest

in seeing black people as equal to white. They have targets to reach and budgets to keep. Thank you for this report today. It's so important for your audience to understand the day-to-day trauma we're going through. And Rosamund emailed, very interesting interview with Bridget McCrum today. More features like that, please. Old women are so interesting and inspiring. Now, do join me tomorrow when we'll be talking to Mandy. She's an ambulance dispatcher. She appears in the television programme Ambulance and she joined the service because she lost her own son to knife crime. And we'll also be talking funny books by funny women. That's tomorrow, two minutes past 10. Bye-bye. Have you ever wondered what teachers talk about when no one else is listening?

Well, you're about to find out. I'm Maureen Bake and my brand new podcast, The Secret Life of Teachers, goes behind the headlines to see what's really going on as teachers go back to school after the lockdown. I was a teacher for almost a decade, but I never witnessed a time like this. So I've created my own virtual secret staff room where each week some teacher friends and I will discuss everything from remote learning and mental health to offset inspections and teachers behaving badly. If you'd also like to overhear their uncensored star from Confessions, then subscribe to my podcast, The Secret Life of Teachers, on BBC Sounds.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.