Woman's Hour - Black Women in the music industry; Premenstrual dysphoric disorder

Episode Date: July 29, 2020

The Black Lives Matter movement has shone a light on a number of areas of society where discrimination and prejudice exists beneath the surface. Today we explore what it’s like to be a black woman and work in the music industry. Jacqueline Springer is a music lecturer and journalist. Fleur East is an artist and songwriter who rose to fame after coming second on the X Factor in 2014. Lioness MC is a Grime rapper who has been making songs for over 10 years.PMDD, Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder, an extreme form of premenstrual syndrome or PMS. affects up to one million women in the UK but is little known, and often misdiagnosed. The BBC has carried out its own research and heard the experiences of 4000 women across the UK. Nearly 3,000 said they’d had suicidal thoughts and around 1,500 self-harmed in the days before their period. To discuss diagnosis and treatment options we hear from Laura Murphy, Director of Education and Awareness for IAPMD (The International Association for Premenstrual Disorders) and Founder of Vicious Cycle : Making PMDD visible, and from Dr Paula Briggs, Consultant in Sexual and Reproductive Health at Liverpool Women’s NHS Foundation Trust.Presented by Jenni Murray Producer: Louise Corley Editor: Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Woman's Hour podcast for Wednesday the 29th of July. Good morning. In today's programme, black women in the music industry, while some, like Beyonce, Rihanna, Aretha Franklin, Tina Turner or Whitney Houston, became international superstars. How do the talented but maybe less powerful fare in their careers?

And the serial, episode three of Babelsberg Babylon. I'll get there in the end. Now, I suspect most of us at some time in our lives have suffered from premenstrual tension or maybe period pain. But there is a less common extreme form of PMS called premenstrual dysphoric disorder, PMDD, which has driven some of the women who suffer from it to distraction. The BBC has carried out research into the condition, which is thought to affect around a million women in the UK. The researchers heard from 4,000 women, of whom nearly 3,000 said they'd had suicidal thoughts as a result of the pain they suffered. 1,500 said they harmed themselves in the days before their period.

Some of them told us what they had gone through. I suffered from brain fog, suicidal ideations, stuttering. I would suffer immensely, mentally, physically, emotionally, and month upon month it was actually getting worse. For as long as I can remember, I have lived with depression and anxiety, amongst other symptoms, exhaustion, lethargy, some flu-like symptoms, headaches. Sometimes I would feel really myself, getting on with life, enjoying life. And then suddenly I'd switch really

really quickly and drop into a deep deep depression. I didn't know why, I didn't know what was wrong with me, I thought it was my personality. It was terrifying. I just can't cope being suicidal. So yeah this is something that PMDD can do and generally this is for one to two weeks of every single month every single month of my life he basically told me it's just PMS and we don't know what causes PMS so there's nothing I can really do um but eat more soy and take even in primrose oil and I was just sitting there thinking I was crying at the time as well and I just thought I've just told you that I was suicidal and this is what you're you're telling

me to do eat more soy I've been given a lot of leaflets about PMS and having a bath and smelling some lavender having some chocolate cuddling a dog I mean standard. I had to repeat myself 17 times to the crisis team explaining what my condition was. Now someone who's just attempted to take their life had to explain 17 times what the condition is. Now that is completely unacceptable. I was put up on pretty high doses of antidepressants, anti-anxiety meds. I was on reduced hours at work and nothing would get on top of the lows. Nobody had ever ever mentioned to me about tracking my menstrual cycle against my mental health symptoms. I never thought to look to see if there was a pattern. I didn't know it was a thing so why would I have thought to do that? Now I look back it seems so obvious.

I had a full hysterectomy with both ovaries removed. I had to fight to have this operation because a girl at 38 years old why would she want to have this operation and put herself in additional risks? As a very very last resort after going through the treatment pathway I had a full hysterectomy and bilateral oophorectomy, so that's uterus, tubes, ovaries, everything out to make sure I no longer had cycles at the age of 33. But now I have my life back, my kids have their mum back and the future is looking bright. Well, PMDD has only recently been recognised as a condition by the World

Health Organisation. What progress has been made in understanding it and treating it? Well Laura Murphy is the Director of Education and Awareness for the International Association for Premenstrual Disorders and the founder of Vicious Cycle making PMDD visible. Dr Paula Briggs is a consultant in sexual and reproductive health at Liverpool Women's NHS Trust. Paula, how would you describe PMDD? PMDD is a cyclical problem. It's related to ovulation. The symptoms are completely relieved by menstruation. So obviously all women, if they're not using contraception, will have a menstrual cycle, but not all women suffer from PMDD. And it would appear that some women have a sort of abnormal brain sensitivity

to their own cyclical hormones. We heard from women there who said they had had suicidal thoughts. How common is that? Well, you know, I think it's difficult to be sure just how common this is. I think the World Health Organization's adding the condition to their classification of diseases gives PMDD a legitimate diagnosis. And we may well see now with raising awareness, more women coming forward to express severe symptoms, including suicidal thoughts. So at the moment, we think it's the severe end of the spectrum. And I think that's right. But I just think the absolute numbers are not clear.

Laura, what did you make of the voices we heard just now, the women talking about what they had gone through? Very emotional. Actually, I know a lot of those people that were speaking and it's very hard hearing their explanations. I suffered for 17 years myself, undiagnosed, and I can relate to so much of what they were saying. I speak to people daily who are going through this.

It doesn't surprise me that they're having to explain themselves to crisis teams. We see that a lot, people in crisis going through the mental health system and people not knowing what it is in some cases doctors withdrawing hormonal treatment that would normally be helping them but no it doesn't surprise me sadly. What do you mean by the hormonal treatment that may be helpful? So in terms of treatment of PMDD you want to flatten out the fluctuations like Dr. Briggs said it's a response to the fluctuations a negative response in the brain to the hormonal fluctuations so cycle suppression is often used as a treatment option to flatten down those flatten down those fluctuations that occur every month. What was your actual experience of it? What was it like for you?

Very traumatic. So started at around 17 when I took the contraceptive pill and on day 21 obviously you go to the sugar pills and the massive drop just triggered something. In me life was never really the same again. I suffered from mental health problems for many years I know I suffered from severe PMS but never quite linked the two I would just fall into a pit of depression every month panic attacks anxiety it ramped up in my 30s to the point where I was losing half a month I would forget how to drive I would forget how to speak it would be like wading through treacle and to be honest it was like going through a bereavement every month. To what extent Laura do you think it was connected with starting to take the contraceptive pill? In my um it was definitely triggered by the pill on that day 21

um there was just i was literally floored um my life just changed forever my personality changed forever i went into a deep depression and things were never same again sadly paula why might that be the case that the contraceptive pill would have that impact? I think what Laura's describing is the impairment associated with sensitivity to hormones that women with PMDD have. When we prescribe the pill as a means of treating this condition, we would normally use a very specific combination, trying minimize any adverse effects and also now I think most experts in the field would recommend that women take the pill continuously and they don't have a break and by doing that we inhibit ovulation but we provide the woman with stable

hormones so she loses that fluctuation that's causing her the issues. Laura, why do you think it took such a long time, 17 years, to be given a diagnosis? That's a good question. Lack of awareness, lack of training, lack of training at GP level in women's health generally. PMDD is not included in any training. I remember going to my doctor and saying something is seriously wrong I think I have bipolar you know and I was saying my PS PMS is really bad I mean really it was so so so so obvious she even got her book out and said you know I don't think it's bipolar um but I was never asked to track my mood symptoms alongside my cycle so just daily I was never asked to track my mood symptoms alongside my cycle.

So just daily, I was kind of bumbling along, up and down, up and down, having good patches, having bad patches, but never really making the connection to my menstrual cycle. Paula, I know you used to be a GP, so you must have seen a lot of this in general practice. What difference will the recent recognition of it as a condition by the World Health Organization make to maybe doctors getting better trained in it? Well, previously we were using an American definition or categorization. So the WHO will make this a global diagnosis and that should be supported by a shared language and training. And I've said before, I think it's very hard for GPs. They can't possibly know everything about everything. But I think just raising awareness, I think the BBC coverage has been exceptional, just showing how severely affected women can be and I think Laura makes a really important part about how crucial the diagnosis is and so if more people more GPs or primary care clinicians were aware of the need for women to track their

symptoms over two months that would make a big difference and there are some really good things available to help with that apps are available so patients or affected women could start recording their symptoms even before they go to their GP and it just helps make the diagnosis much more robust. I know Paula that Laura had surgery like some of the women we heard earlier but you were involved in a recent trial what happened as a result of that trial? There were great hopes that the drug that we were trialing which is called was called isoallopregnanolone and that would block the effect of allopregnanolone which is a metabolite of progesterone and that's what we think causes PMDD. But unfortunately, there was a very high placebo response to that drug.

And that's been well recognised in this condition that there is a high placebo response to treatments. And the reasons for that will be extremely complicated. I think some of the placebo response related to the fact that the women were given credibility for their condition. Our research nurse was exceptional and spent a huge amount of time being available for the women and I think that made a big difference. So you know if nothing more came of the current publicity around PMDD I think just listening to women and taking them seriously would be a huge step forward. Dr Paula Briggs and Laura Murphy, thank you both very much indeed for being with us this morning. We would, of course, like to hear from you.

If you've experienced this, you can send us an email or, of course, you can tweet us and you don't have to give your name if you don't want to. And if you're feeling distressed at the moment and you'd like details of organisations that might offer advice and support,

just go online to bbc.co.uk forward slash action line, or you can call for free at any time to hear recorded information. The number there is 0800 066 066. And there are, of course, links to help you on the Woman's Hour website. Now still to come in today's programme, the third episode of the serial, Babelsberg, Babylon. Earlier in the week, you may have missed a discussion about sex robots and yesterday, Jackie Clune on her new novel and a discussion about women and cycling. If you missed the live programme, you know you can always find us on BBC Sounds. And as part of a summer series on how to do a number of things, last week Jane led a discussion about friendship,

how to be a good friend with Sally Hughes, Jenny Eclair and Radhika Sangani, who's recently made new friends, even in lockdown. Most of my friends are from school and university and I kind of realised that we'd all really grown apart. A lot of people were starting to get married and have kids and I was living a very different lifestyle and I started to feel a little bit lonely. So I decided to set out and make new friends,

which always feels really weird as an adult because it just seems like something you do with a child or at university. So I found it a little bit daunting, but I kind of really set about trying to make new friends, whether it was staying later in my yoga class to speak to the teacher or starting to speak to neighbors or, you know, like with colleagues actually saying, let's go for a drink rather than just kind of, you know, having lunch together and that's it. and it made me realize that it is possible to make new friends as an adult and then when lockdown happened I'm living alone and I felt quite lonely again at the beginning and again lots of my friends were in lockdown with partners or families so I was like something needs to change I can't just be lonely for however long this is going to be so I sort of just started putting into practice

all the skills I learned with step one of making friends. And I basically just befriended loads of my neighbours. And now we have Friday drinks every Friday in the garden. I befriended people who live in cafes near me. I've started outdoor yoga classes and it's kind of become this lovely community. Do you think, Sally, that there's ever a time when you simply decide to stop making new friends? I hear this quite a lot, people saying, well, I've got enough friends, the books are closed, I'm done now. And I understand that impulse if you do have really great friends. But I do think it's not a particularly kind of good way to think

about the world. My books are always open. If I meet somebody and I'm kind of enchanted or intrigued, then I pursue it because I kind of feel like when you're sick of meeting other people, you're sick of life in a way. There have been occasions, maybe once every couple of years, where I meet someone really special and I make room. And Jenny Eclair, are you still able to make room for new mates? I have been in my past a bit of a lousy friend, and now that I've hit 60, I'm looking back and I think that I'm very lucky to have some very loyal mates

who've stuck with me through years of me sort of not really paying them enough attention. I'm slightly suspicious of making new friends. This sounds like a bit me, me, me. But I think when I was very busy gigging and I thought I was suspicious of why people wanted to be friends with me. I thought if they expected the same persona that I was on stage and they were going to be entertained, they were going to get all this free entertainment, they were going to get very disappointed.

Jenny Eclair, Sally Hughes and Radhika Sangani. And starting next week, we're going to be talking to women about scars. How do you deal with physical and probably emotional pain and deal with other people's reactions on a day-to-day basis? Well, Jane had a flesh-eating bug. Emily has overcome self-harm. Amy lives with psoriasis and Laura is a burn survivor. From my belly button down to my toes, I've always said that my scars look like scrumpled up tights. They feel smooth and normal, but not normal to look at. They've got lumps and bumps, but it looks like you're wearing a corset.

And you can hear more about scars next week. And the Black Lives Matter movement has brought attention to a number of various society where discrimination and prejudice rumble beneath the surface. There are a number of black women in the music industry who've risen to become international superstars. Beyonce is perhaps the best example. But what of the others who have talent but haven't reached the pinnacle of power in popular music? Olivia Cope has spoken to Jacqueline Springer, who's a journalist and teaches music. Lioness MC is a grime rapper who's been performing for more than 10 years. Fleur East is an artist who writes songs. She came second in the X Factor in 2014. How has her colour influenced her progress?

Well, one of the first things that comes to mind is that it's kind of like the unspoken dialogue that you have whenever you see any other like black artist. You don't even need to open your mouth. It's like you just look at each other and you go, hmm, like you kind of know, it's an unspoken experience, but it's shared and everyone kind of knows what's going on. But I remember the first time it became an issue. I think, I can't remember who it was that said it to me, but I think I just came out of a record label meeting or something. And someone there who was working there that was a black person came up to me and said, um, so how, how's it going? Like, how's it, how's it it how how you finding it all I was like yeah really exciting like you know I'm loving it and then they went no no but how's it going and they just like pointed at their hand like as if to gesture

at the skin at their skin tone they were like no how's it really and I was like oh wow I was like okay and then there's the comments you get like, oh, you're so talented, man. Honestly, this country's mad. If you were white, you'd be 10 times more successful. Like people are sleeping on you and hearing things like that. That's so frustrating to hear that because you kind of know there's an element of truth to it, but at the same time, it's something that you can't prove or even something you can't really explain. It's something you can't dictate. So the minute you even bring that up, it's like's like oh you're pulling out the race card whatever that's nonsense and to be fair there's so many other elements that contribute to your success besides race

so there's like being a female in the industry there's timing there's the platform you launched into the industry like via so there's so many elements but at the same time there's definitely an issue when it comes to opportunities and marketing and things like that when it comes to race in the music industry for sure and when you get those comments that come from other black people in the music industry you know this person was like how's it really going is it very it's very hush hush like it's nothing they would say in front of the executives or you know the management or whoever it's very behind closed doors conversations yeah very behind closed doors no one would have an open conversation about that but that's what that's what I've kind of found

fascinating since the Black Lives Matter conversations opened up because you're seeing everybody just speaking up about this stuff like M Misha B's account, Alexandra Burke, Leona Lewis, Leanne from Little Mix, like they're all going on their socials, openly sharing all their experiences. Now for me, and I'm sure for many other black artists in the industry, you know, this isn't news to us. This isn't a surprise. It's not shocking. You know, it's not groundbreaking. We've all experienced similar things. So for us, it's just like, okay, wow, we're in that time. We can we can talk about this now. This is cool now. OK, so we're feeling empowered to to share those stories. But for many people who haven't been aware of it, to them, this is a real surprise. It's almost like, where's this coming from? Is everyone just now jumping on this trend? Are people now just trying to get fame by claiming that they face racism? Which is the most frustrating thing, to be fair, that I've heard.

That really annoys me. It's just like people are making these things up. This is a daily struggle. These are experiences that people have been through throughout their whole lives. But it's just now that we feel the floor is open. We're feeling more confident to share these stories and I think it's really important that people do because the minute you hear one story you go okay I'm not alone in this this is a thing it's real.

Lioness what about you when I say what's it like being a black woman in the music industry is it a similar similar thought process that comes to mind? We've kind of been desensitized to like, this is the way it is. So we just crack on with it. So when I'm hearing everyone's stories, it reminds you, like reminding me of stories. And I was like, oh yeah, I forgot that happened because you just get on with it.

And it's actually not right that we do that. I mean, what kind of experiences come to mind? What are the ones that stuck with you? So for me, it was when um an anna said that i would be better if i were light-skinned and at the time i just was like oh i don't really that's not a nice thing to say i don't really like that so and i was 20 years old at the time and i just thought oh i don't like that if that's what people think that i would be better if i was light-skinned i'm not so. And then I just stopped doing music. I stopped for about six years. And it's so mad because the 30 year old me would be like, why do you think that? Let's let's delve into this. Why do you actually think that I would be better if I was light-skinned. So it becomes about, oh, are you more marketable,

like, if you're light-skinned? And then why is that? Why is it that if you are light-skinned or white, that you are more marketable to the masses? And then these will be the same people that will say that this country isn't racist. We need to speak about racism. And if there's racism,

then there's got to be some sort of ignorance. And then if there's ignorance, there's a to be some sort of ignorance and then if there's ignorance there's a lack of education if there's a lack of education why is that so you delve deeper and deeper and deeper and it just shows the wider issue that we all know it's there but we just accept and get on with it so what what is an A&R for people that aren't familiar with that term who are they and how much power do they have do you know what now I would say that an A&R doesn't have much power because we have social media and it just means that I can go on my phone do my freestyles do my songs and curate my own audience and make my own career off the back of that but back in the day it was like a door and

you could only get through the door if the A&Rs were there to represent you bring you into um labels um and get you seen to get record deals so it's like a publicist almost yeah kind of like that it's like they they scout for you like a scout pretty much okay and this person who said you'd be more marketable if you were light-skinned was this a white person no wow okay so that's interesting in itself that's the interesting part exactly so aside from other races maybe having an issue you have issues within your own race and that it just makes it longer but it's a money thing so i take it that the anr believed that he would make more money off of me as an artist if I were light-skinned and I was more marketable to the masses who would then buy into me but who was it that said that black dark-skinned

females are not marketable or they won't sell who said that and I can imagine that must have been really difficult because as you said you were only 20 like you're you're this young woman and you know someone tells you basically that if you were different, you would make it. And it's so sad to hear that part of that is what led to you taking a hiatus in music. Literally, that's what just made me stop. But that's the person I am, or I was, because if I didn't like PE, I wasn't bringing in my kit. I'm just not doing it guys. So that's how I was. But I'm, I I'm I will never like look back on that time and be like oh I wish that I stayed on or whatever because I needed to stop doing music to have

that break to understand things realize my worth completely so that when I get back into music I'm not gonna stand for it anymore do you know what I mean well you are back making music you've been making music for the last couple of years what's changed for you I mean the music industry can still be a very difficult culture to be a part of do you think you can just you can handle that better now yeah like I had to do a lot of growing up um a lot of living I had a lot of things happen to me traumas and stuff that I had to deal with and because of all of that living I've become built up my character and I'm much stronger and I'll be prepared to to battle that because that's not something that I I would accept anymore like now I find it challenging oh so you think that you're

gonna okay cool so now it's a game whereas before it was just like oh don't be mean I don't like that and just you know I mean yeah yeah you're able to kind of stand up for yourself more now as well yeah so I don't I don't mind that all of that happened to be fair it's done me good Jacqueline you are a music journalist and a music lecturer you've been a part of this industry for many years and written about this industry for many years. How diverse is it from your perspective? It's not as diverse as it could be. What we're looking at here, when we think about music, music is actually about the lived experience, the imagined experience. When you think about Isn't She Lovely, that's a song that Stevie Wonder wrote for his daughter. But based on your own lived experiences that could be a love song for your partner whether you are

in the same sexual relationship or in a heterosexual relationship so the way in which you actually go into music the diversity is man-made the actual experiences are broadly shared and so what's so interesting and what is so heartbreaking about some of the so many of the tales that we have heard is that it has everything to do all of the hurdles have everything to do with the way that we're socialized the way that men need to be marketed in this way then girls need to be marketed in this way everybody's who's ever watched the x factor has heard louis walsh compare black men and black women to people they don't even look like. As if there's this ongoing running joke that, oh yeah, Jaheim, you look like Lenny Henry. No, he doesn't. And do you actually think that at prime time, that that kind of sly condescension is weaponizing those constructions? And so, sorry, long story short the the whole idea of what diversity is relies upon

what is quote the norm that diversity has to break these are all man-made constructions that we all are complicit in upholding where lioness just mentioned there that the person that told her that she'd be more marketable if she were light-skinned ridiculous and it infects the way that people treat other people within the black um within black society i'm not saying community because it makes it sound like there's 15 of us or something like that and it also creates a great deal of pressure on artists to be everything to everybody they're supposed to be everything to all people because of the imbalance of representation and the imbalance of representation has everything to do with the way in which people have been constructed to mean more or less than others so men mean more than women

certain other women mean less than others it goes to race it goes to size it goes to regionality it goes to age that's why you have the overs that's why everything all of these categories when you put on a record categories don't actually exist sound doesn't x x you know sound wafts around all of these categories we have made everything and i say we i'm talking about the human race we've made everything complicated it's crazy and music sounds so beautiful so different and it keeps on existing if there was no record industry music would still be made. And that's fundamentally what we have to remember.

People are innately talented. This is just about the sale of music. The making of music exists because humans exist. Fleur, I know that your experience of being a black woman in the music industry, part of it has been defined by your hair and the politics of black hair so could you tell me a bit about you know your experience and what it's been like for you I mean it's just outrageous I remember my my earliest experience was um when I was in a group and it was me and another black girl that also had big like afro hair and the management team said Fleur um you're gonna have to straighten yours uh because we can't have two black girls with big hair so you know there's only got to be

one you know one's enough like so you know we've got you got to straighten yours and I was like huh I was like why do I have to show why is why can't we both have our big hair and why can't we both celebrate our big hair this doesn't make. And then I remember it was comments like when I later was on my own. Yeah, I mean, to straighten it will be, you know, sleeker, more appealing to the market, more marketable. You know, your hair's a bit, it's a bit distracting, a bit unruly. And they go, oh, they said, I was like, hair? I was like and they go all this and i was like huh i was like what do you mean i was like this is how it grows out of my head and i remember um i went onto tv and i spoke about that and later that video circulated and the comments that some people

were saying they were like yeah so what loads of artists get told to change things in the industry some get told to lose weight some get told to change their style some get told to change things in the industry. Some get told to lose weight. Some get told to change their style. Some get told to change the way they wear their makeup. That's just like, that's not racist. And I was like, okay, we need to clarify this. So someone suggesting that I straighten my hair, of course, is not racist on its own. It's the motive behind it. Why are you asking me to straighten my hair? You're telling me categorically that my natural Afro hair type will not appeal to the market. That's what you're telling me. You're telling me the market in this society is going to look at my Afro hair and go, that's not appealing to me.

Don't want to buy what she's selling. So you need to question the motive behind it. It's not what they're asking me to do. It's why they're asking me to do it. completely honest with you we think you would sell better if you looked like this we think that a white audience would like you better if you look like this would that would that help would that honesty make a difference do you know what though i think it's interesting because lioness touched on this it's not even just white people it's people in the black community that will tell you you got a stray in your hair it's people in the black community also that will tell you you got to wear a weave or whatever but

i think that's conditioning it's conditioning isn't it and it's also people are afraid to hurt their paper they're afraid to hurt their bag like they don't want to take that risk and step out and go no no do you know i'm just going to break mold. It's almost like there's a sense of having to conform. But like, it's sad. It's sad. Like, why? Why is a black person coming to Lioness and saying, babe, you know, you'd be more marketable if you were light skinned, you know?

Like, how, what? Where did that even come from? That's like a hate to yourself. You're hating yourself. There's a lot of that as well. Like, there's so much confusion. Like, it's just, it's mad. When you talk about racism, there's layers upon of that as well like there's so much confusion like it's just it's mad there's when you when you talk about racism there's layers upon layers upon layers there's racism within racism

like lioness has touched and there's a light skin dark skin debate which is a whole thing on its own like there's so many issues but i think at the core of it all the minute that we realize what unites us is more important than what separates us, like as a whole, that's when we'll stop putting all these labels and putting us into categories all the time. So there's so many issues within the one issue of race. So it's like, it's a bigger conversation to be fair. So many of the experiences that we're hearing about, nothing's changing because the people who did them and the infrastructure that upholds the people that employ them have not come out so even within all of this even with misha b alexandra burke telling their truths there's a chasm of silence when you have women who write

their own material who come out and tell you this is what it's like to live like this. It's intimidating in a way where if you don't do certain things, if you aren't kind of one of the boys, there's this ever-present threat of condemnation. I mean, Lioness, you, as well as being a black woman in the music industry, you're a grime artist, which is a hugely male-dom hugely male dominated field I mean what's that been like the men in the scene they expect you to not be good because you're just a girl you know you're just a girl she you know I mean back in the day we used to go on pirate radio and we used to get on the mic and they just wouldn't give me the mic as a girl that's there and I'm having to get through the

crowd and grab the mic to show my worth um yeah I find it fun though because they expect me to be rubbish so when I come through and I'm giving them something they're like what's this what's this I like that and I like that I like the fact that sometimes people expect me to be a singer so I like when I go to places and I'm actually no I'm actually rapping huh what you know I like the fact that sometimes people expect me to be a singer. So I like when I go to places and I'm actually, no, I'm actually rapping. Huh? What? You know, I like that. But in terms of like everything that's been spoken about, it's just been really interesting to see the way in which it's been spoken about.

People's experiences of getting pushed to the side or just not being taken seriously. And it's very telling, very telling. And you have these T-shirts which are sold as part of your marketing brand, which read, Angry Black Female. Can you just tell me a bit more about what's the meaning behind that? So I made a tune called DBT, which stands for Dead Black Thing. And it was to talking about how black men view black women yeah and you know part of that song i was speaking about how black women are just automatically

angry so it's so mad that what we've been talking about a lot of black women won't speak about it because they're going to be perceived as being angry, bitter. It's just going to, their point of view is going to be cast to the side because, oh, they're just moaning again. Do you know what I mean? A lot of the time people don't say that. And my aesthetic alone, without me saying one word, sends so many signals to people. And it tells them the person that I am. And I've said not one word. Yeah. And it's typically that I'm angry so I thought well you think that anyway so why don't I just put it on a t-shirt so I put angry

black female um on my t-shirt as part of the campaign with uh dbt so it's almost like you're gonna call me this thing I might as well take ownership of it exactly if I want to say you think I'm going to be an angry black female I'm going to own it that's my choice and that's just what I done I just want to explore something which Jacqueline touched on earlier which is about the idea that music on its own is diverse and beautiful and doesn't care about labels. It's the music industry itself, which can be quite toxic. So Fleur and Lioness, I'm curious to know, as artists, do you feel like products, like commodities, rather than people, rather than individuals?

And maybe that's why it can be difficult to speak out about how you're being treated. Yeah, I mean, that's essentially what you are like I was never you know I was never delusional or ignorant to that I've always known that I've never thought otherwise um but that's what's always fascinated me about the music industry and I remember even seeing an interview with Kanye West and he said something like artists shouldn't have managers they should have ceos like because really and truly we're we're a company that we're a business we're being sold we're being marketed

and that becomes even more real when when you're signed to a massive label and you have a huge machine behind you it's like every single element is considered because it's like how's this going to appeal how's the consumer gonna gonna you know accept this how's the consumer going to buy into this um everything like from the cover of your single from you know the imagery for everything and it's like now being independent i can definitely see the difference when you have like a huge machine behind you when you're doing it on your own and like i was beating my head against the wall and it was demoralizing and it was draining. So the minute you go into the industry and you realize that you are a product,

you are a commodity, it's all about selling you. I mean, it does, it does hurt. It starts to suck, suck the love out of it. It does. really really difficult to to exist to be an artist create and not be tarnished or bruised by the marketing side of the industry it's difficult there's that saying that people don't buy products people buy people so once people go off the back of that statement, everything about that person has to make money, so that's why the way in which you look has to be a certain way for you to get the money that I need from you, do you know what I mean, that's why like the statements that the person said about my complexion, I can't do anything about that, so that's why I just stopped so it's like when I came back to music I was like I'm not I know that I need to be a product but really I don't want to take that on board because then that just governs the type of music I make

the type of person that I am I have to be true to myself otherwise doing music makes no sense the reason why I do music is because I love it it's therapy for me it's just everything about music I just I just love it so I need to continue with that and focus on that the minute I try to make it a business which I understand that it is because the industry has made it that way the minute I do that I'm compromised as an artist because I'm thinking all these other things and I can't just be I can't just create the way I want to create because I'm taking in all these other things and I can't just be I can't just create the way I want to create because I'm taking in all these extra added factors that I don't need to and then it's just a complete waste of time so I've just decided look I'm doing what I want to do and if you roll with

me I love that if you don't want to roll with me there's other artists in the world what we're looking at here is also the way in which within that infrastructure of selling sound women and women of colour, black women, non-white women broadly come off worse from the experience because of the way in which racism functions, the way sexism functions. Things have got to change because people are damaged. They're emotionally and psychologically damaged by this maltreatment. All of this revelation isn't to avenge people. It's to actually get, it's to expunge the weight of this evil. I just want to finish by asking about the Black Lives Matter movement which is where this whole discussion

started. Do you think that this is a lasting conversation? Do you think what we're talking about today and right now will still have an impact and still feel relevant later down the line? For as long as we make it last it will last so we can't just go back into just getting on with it if there's something that's unjust that happens we need to call it out immediately i think i think we need to shy stop shying away from being the complainer being the just like what jacqueline was saying we are going to be the complainants we are going to people are going to expect that from us and that's fine because we have to continue to talk about things that are unjust or they're going to just continue to happen what i've gathered and what i what i've taken from

all of these conversations as well is that i feel like there's like a sense of a lot of people feeling defensive like the minute you post something about black lives matter people are like yeah yeah but you know this ridiculous no like, I didn't, and it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, who was talking to you? Like, this isn't a personal, individual attack. It's all of us against the system. That's what it is. It's like us against the system. Just because it's Black Lives Matter, it doesn't mean, oh, because you're a white person, it's an attack against you as an individual. It's not about that. But there's this sense of defensiveness. And I think that comes from a sense of guilt, if I'm honest, because a lot of like, because obviously I'm of dual heritage.

So my dad was white, my mom was black, and I have a lot of white family, obviously. And there's like conversations where people are saying, you know, I'm embarrassed. The more I'm learning, the more I'm embarrassed, the more I'm ashamed, the more I feel guilty that I've been complicit in a lot of situations or I haven't spoken out against it or I've actually seen it or I've laughed at that joke or I was in that conversation or I've said those things. And it's that the realization of it to actually own

that and take responsibility for that takes a lot and I feel that the opposite of that is is being defensive like I've had to have uncomfortable conversations in places that I've worked with teams that I work with and it's like you do even now I still feel like it's gone a bit quiet now I'm gonna have to bring it up again and it's almost like again do, even now, I still feel like, it's gone a bit quiet now, I'm gonna have to bring it up again, and it's almost like, again, that dread of having to start the conversation again, and it's like, but do you know what, so what, the ball's rolling, we need to keep it rolling, that's what we need to do. The music industry is merely an extension of society, Black Lives Matter is a global concern, it concerns wherever Black people exist, because Black Lives Matter is a global concern. It concerns wherever black people exist because black lives matter as well. Jacqueline Springer, Fleur East and Lioness were speaking to Olivia

Cope. Now lots of you got in touch to talk about your own experience with premenstrual dysphoric disorder. Jo sent an email and said, I've had PMDD my whole life, I now realise. I lost untold friends and boyfriends, was on Prozac and antidepressants. It was only when I was off work sick 15 years or so ago and I heard a Radio 4 programme. I think it was about PMS or PMDD. I joined the help association, they suggested, got the doctor list, took it to my GP.

I was lucky enough to be referred to Dr Nick Panay, who was the NHS doctor on the radio show, and he changed my life. I've been on the continuous pill ever since, which stops me ovulating. The only dodgy time was when I wanted to get since, which stops me ovulating. The only dodgy time was when I wanted to get pregnant, but luckily that happened quickly. And I prepared my husband about the PMDD. I don't think he appreciated quite how bad it could get. Marg sent an email. She said, switched on partway through and thought I recognised it. From when I was 12 until I was 35 I think that's what I had but I thought it was depression so I had a huge amount of treatment

for depression none of which worked including a year as a day patient in a psychiatric hospital. A doctor who was treating my child once asked me how I was and he prescribed multivitamins, zinc and evening primrose oil because he could see I was pretty down. Two months later I was a different person. I'd never noticed until then that the one week each month when I could cope, even do things, was the week before my period and that after that the next couple of weeks until my period started were a time when I went from average to suicidal. Then I had a very heavy period which in itself is draining. Then I'd get gradually better and that first week would kick in. I'm 73 now and I've never stopped taking the supplements because the memory of the misery of all those years of depression

have never left me. Well, thank you for your contributions. Tomorrow we'll be hearing from the ultra-runner Beth Pascal, who's just completed one of the most gruelling Lake District fell runs very, very fast. How did she go from her first cross-country run at the age of six to a speciality distance of 100 miles and how does she balance being a paediatrician with a very demanding training program that's tomorrow do join me if you can. Bye-bye.

Hi, I'm Joe Wicks, and I'm just popping up to tell you about my brand new podcast with BBC Radio 4. It's extraordinary. It almost turbocharges you. I'm really interested in the links between physical and mental health, and what kind of ordinary, everyday activities people do to keep on top of things. I keep fit because it's relaxing, because it absolutely relaxes my mind. And that's so important. So in this podcast, I'm having a chat with some of my favourite people to find out their tips and tricks

to staying healthy and happy. For me, it's a full body experience and it's a total game changer. I think you're going to love it. Hit subscribe on the Joe Wicks podcast on BBC Sounds. Let's do this. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

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