Woman's Hour - Black Women's Mental Health, Pensions, Natasha Gregson Wagner and Women on Remand

Episode Date: July 16, 2020

The mental health charity, Mind is calling for the government to publish their White Paper on the Mental Health Act. They have been pushing for reforms so that fewer black people who are disproportionately represented, are sectioned and those that are sectioned treated with more dignity. So why is it that despite being among the top demographics to be diagnosed and four times more likely to be sectioned, the therapeutic space isn’t tailored towards black communities, and black women and girls in particular are left hanging in the balance? Jenni is joined by Sophie Corlett of Mind, producer Tobi Kyeremateng, the psychotherapist Dawn Estefan and Jahnine Davis a PhD researcher and Co-founder of Listen Up Research Company.The size of women’s pension pots appears to have fallen three times as much as men’s during the Coronavirus pandemic according to Profile Pensions, an impartial pensions advisor. Why is this and what can women do to ensure they have enough to live on when they retire? Jenni speaks to Baroness Ros Altmann, former Pensions Minister and to Romi Savova, Founder and Chief Executive of PensionBee.Natasha Gregson Wagner is the daughter of the American actress Natalie Wood, who began her career in film as a child actor and successfully transitioned to young adult roles. She was the recipient of four Golden Globes, and received three Academy Award nominations, and is best remembered for films including Splendour in the Grass, West Side Story and Gypsy. Natalie died suddenly by drowning off Catalina Island at the age of 43. Natasha has now produced a documentary and written the memoir More Than Love, An Intimate Portrait of My Mother, in which she describes their relationship and coming to terms with her grief, amid rumours and tabloid speculation surrounding her mother’s death.And a new report by The Howard League for Penal Reform is calling for major changes in the way that the courts make decisions about remanding women to prison in England and Wales. This is an area of the criminal justice system that they say has been overlooked. Jenni is joined by Dr Miranda Bevan, policy associate at the Howard League for Penal Reform and Val Castell, Chair of the Magistrates Association’s Adult Court Committee.

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Women's Hour podcast for Thursday the 16th of July. Good morning. Natasha Gregson-Wagner is the daughter of Natalie Wood, who drowned when she was only 43 amid rumours and speculation about how it happened. Why has Natasha made a documentary and written a book about her mother now? The charity Mind is asking for the Mental Health Act to be updated and modernised. They're concerned that services are failing black women and girls. And women held on remand in prison who are later found to be not guilty of the crimes of

which they were accused. The Howard League for Penal Reform wants a rethink of the system. Now, as if there weren't enough to worry about, as job losses and diminishing income are threatened for so many, we now have to look to what feels like a distant future for a lot of women but is being affected now. Pensions. The size of women's pension pots appears to have fallen three times as much as men's during the coronavirus pandemic. Why is it happening and what can women do to ensure they have enough to live on when they retire? Well, I'm joined by Romy Savova, the Chief Executive of Pension B, and Baroness Ros Altman, the former Pensions Minister. Ros, what difference has the virus made to the gender gap between men's and women's pensions?

Well, Jenny, women already had much lower pension prospects than men. And because of what's happened during the virus, many women have lost their jobs or been put on furlough, which is reduced income. And at work, if you are in the private sector, typically any pension that you get is dependent on how much you earn and how much you work. So if women were already earning less than men because they tend to work in jobs that pay less, and if women have been more likely to have to cut working hours during the crisis, which is the case, because typically they end up doing more of the childcare, it seems, then their pensions will be affected and will be affected more than men. So this is a real blow for women who already were at the sharp end of pension losses before the pandemic.

And women's pensions have not been equalised to men's. Even if gender pay gaps have been reduced, pension gaps are still enormous. But why? Why has that continued? Well, I think it's part of the way women work. Women tend to work in professions or industries that are lower paid than men overall. They tend to work fewer hours. They're more likely to work part-time than full-time rather than men who tend to be much more likely to work full-time. And the less you earn, the lower your pension will be. Women are also typically in jobs where the employer is less generous. Unless you're in the public sector, and of course, that is something that is another bonus of working in the public sector. Your pension prospects as a woman are far better than in the private sector.

Romy, how has the pandemic affected women's private pensions? Well, certainly, you know, women have been subject to the same forces within private pensions that Ros describes. So I think one of the most shocking statistics that I've seen so far is that of those who have lost their jobs since the pandemic started, roughly 75% of them are actually women. And so women have been bearing the brunt of the economic fallout of coronavirus. And so as a result, that has also impacted their private pensions. So typically, your private pension will be built up by the contributions that you make. And between men

and women, we certainly continue to see these enormous gaps in contributions, which very much reflect the level of earnings that women have. And so, yes, I would certainly say private pensions have been affected too. What about the stock market? How has that affected private pensions? Have they been sliding down in value? Yes, indeed. So most pensions in the country, most private pensions, will be invested to some degree in the stock market. And certainly, you know, what we've seen since the start of the crisis is that stock markets around the world have generally plummeted.

And I think at the lowest point, they'd lost about 30% of their value. And so, you know, that is very concerning for private pensions, especially when women are on the verge of retirement, because they could have lost a substantial amount of money in their pensions. However, the other very positive trend that we also see is that women are diligent savers. during coronavirus making a contribution while the stock market is low and effectively buying your pension on sale if you will has been a good financial strategy and financial markets have recovered over the last couple of weeks but romi for women who are planning on retiring retiring in the new near future and their pensions have gone down, what do you advise them to do? Well, in general, if that has happened and your pension has gone down, then usually the best

course of action is to hang tight and not be tempted to make, you know, very, very dramatic changes within your pension investments. Because on the whole, over a period of time, markets do tend to recover. And so, you know, when we looked at some numbers and we forecast, you know, past recoveries and what they would mean on today's pensions, then if your pension fell, it could take a year, three or five years to sort of get back

to the values where you are at. And so certainly you may consider if you are at drawdown age, not withdrawing a very large amount of money from your pension so that you can give it the best chance of recovery over the next couple of years. And of course, if you can afford to, then making a pension contribution while the market is effectively on sale can be a very effective long-term strategy. Rose, what do women need to know about topping up pensions if they've taken a break for childcare, say? Well, there are two pension sources that women rely on, and more women than men have the state pension as their main source of retirement income.

And it's therefore absolutely vital that women accrue as much state pension as they can. And that state pension comes from either paying national insurance or being credited with national insurance. And the state pension is much more equal than the private pension because it doesn't depend on your earnings. It just depends on whether you are accruing a number of years of national insurance. And if you have 35 years, you get a full state pension. But what many women don't realise is that there are ways in which you can fall through the cracks in the national insurance system. And of course, we have introduced credits so that if you are caring for

children or for elderly relatives, you can still get your year's worth of national insurance added to your record, even if you're not working and even if you're not earning. But what many women don't realise is that is tied to, for example, claiming child benefit. And since the child benefit rules have changed, and if you're in a household that has more than £50,000 of annual income, then you're not eligible for child benefit anymore. So many women who are in that position might think, well, why on earth would I bother claiming the child benefit? Because I know I'm not entitled to it. It's just a waste of time. And what is important to help them understand is that the crazy national insurance rules, if I can put it like that, mean you have to claim the child benefit

in order to get your year's worth on your national insurance record. And if you don't claim the child benefit that you know you're not entitled to, you lose that year's worth towards your eventual state pension. I know that it's bonkers, but it is, for some reason, the current rules. A number of us have been trying to see if this could be changed. But at the moment, you can actually lose out in your state pension as a woman, and it's much more women. Also, part-time women who earn less than a certain amount don't get any credit for their state pension, whereas if they were at home or if they were earning a little bit more, they might get that year. So it's really important to keep on top of the state pension that you're getting into

your record to make sure that you don't lose out later because you can't back date the contributions. Romy, just one other point about the private pension. Even if you're unemployed, you can continue to pay into a private pension and the government will top it up. How does that work? Yes, absolutely. So pensions are one of the most generous savings vehicles that the government offers to people in the country. And so in general, for every hundred pounds that you put in, the government will add another 25 pounds in the form of a tax top-up. And within private pensions in particular, that tends to be given to you automatically.

The situation can be a bit different in workplace pensions, and I can certainly touch on that in a moment. But within your private pension, you can continue to make pension contributions even if you're not actively working. And so you can contribute up to £2,880 and the government will top it up to £3,600 and so even if you're off work it can still be a very good idea to keep making those pension contributions and getting that generous tax top-up from the government. And there, I'm afraid, we will have to end. Romy Savova and

Ros Altman, thank you both very much indeed. I suspect we'll be having you back before too long because this will continue, but thank you both very much indeed. And if you have problems with your pensions or concerns that you have, do get in touch with us. You can always send us an email or a tweet and we will do whatever we can to give you a hand. Thank you both very much. Now, the mental health charity Mind is asking the government to publish its white paper on the Mental Health Act because of their concerns about the need for reform so that fewer people, particularly black people who are disproportionately represented, are sectioned. Why are black women and girls left hanging in the balance? Well, Dawn Estefan is a psychotherapist, Toby Cheramating works in the theatre, Janine Davies is one of the founders of Listen Up

Research, and Sophie Corlett is Mind's Director of External Relations. Sophie, why is Mind anxious for the government to publish the white paper? Well, first off, it's hugely overdue. There was a year-long independent review of the Mental Health Act throughout 2018. It reported on 6 December 2018, and we've been promised a response to that ever since it's been delayed because of elections, because of Brexit, because of the pandemic. But 18 months later we are still operating to an out-of-date discriminatory piece of legislation which everybody agrees needs to be replaced. So what changes are you hoping for with regards to how black people are treated in mental health settings?

Well, there's a whole string of things actually, and many of these are just improvements to the legislation overall, which should particularly support those who have been so badly affected by it. So putting in place much more much more transparent criteria about who should be detained. So at the moment black people are much more likely to be detained than white people and there doesn't seem to be necessarily good reasons always for this. The government figures say black people are four times more likely to be sectioned. Absolutely.

Why is that? Well, it's a really complicated picture, but we also know that black people are much less likely to get services at an earlier stage. So they're much less likely to get good services in the community. They're much less likely to be, when they do reach a crisis point, gael gwasanaethau da yn y cymuned, maent yn llawer llai tebygol o fod, pan maent yn cyrraedd pwynt crisis, yn llawer llai tebygol o fod yn ymwneud â rhai o'r ymatebion crisis y cymuned. Felly mae llawer o bethau sy'n digwydd ar ddiweddion llawer llawer cynnar ac yna pan maent yn cael eu

ddewis, maent yn llawer fwy tebygol o fod yn cael eu cymryd gan rai o'r rhai mwyaf, felly gallwch fod yn cael eu cymryd gan y polis a'u ddewis os ydych chi wedi'u cymryd ar y stryd neu beth bynnag ac mae pobl â you'd be picked up by some of the more... So you can be picked up by the police and detained if you've, you know, picked up on the street or whatever. And people with mental health problems who are black are much more likely to find these much, much more difficult, uncomfortable routes in if they're black, as opposed to, you know, being referred by a GP or by... in a much more normal sort of a way dawn how much stigma exists around mental health in the black community and people don't want to be open about

it or discuss it or seek treatment for it maybe i think there's a huge amount of stigma in black communities and i think that's really important to emphasize that it's not just one black community. There are several communities under that around stigma. And because of some of the things that have been mentioned by the representative from MIND, there is a huge cultural distrust of the mental health system and how it metas out services and culturally appropriate services for those communities. And because those communities engage with services at a much later stage, I think that that helps to reinforce the stigma and the fear of mental health interventions that are available to people right now. What's the significance of stereotypes like the strong black women, which we all hear frequently? Well, again, that's quite a complicated construct to unpick in today's interview. there is a belief or a construct of pride and that black women should be strong and to be able to

to withhold all manner of withstand all manner of ills and weights and pressures of society and that's kind of seen as a badge of honor I think in a sense it's a reclaiming of pressures that have been put on black women in society and it's our way of being able to say that we can cope with everything but actually it's really damaging for us as a community and us as women. Janine you brought out research looking at child sexual abuse services what did you find? Well I found that there are many different factors impacting one the ways in which black girls and women are identified as victims but also um how they perceive themselves as victims of sexual abuse so as as dawn mentioned earlier you know quite challenging to go through all of

the different points because it's very complex but but just to name a few, there's something around the historical depictions and caricatures of the black woman and girl, not just being strong, but actually the caricature of the Jezebel. And by that, I mean, historically black girls have been fetishized, objectified and seen as these overtly sexual beings. And by that, when we then think about child sexual abuse, it means if we already assume or if there is a narrative that assumes black women and girls are already sexual and in some way it's just a part of their makeup,

one, what does that mean when you're experiencing it? But also how do people then perceive you as that kind of deserving victim of sexual abuse? And then there's also the fact that there's been this legitimized access to black girls' bodies. So one of the, I wanted to just share a quote actually from one of the young women who shared her experiences to say, well, first, no one cares about us. No one cares about our experiences. Do you think anybody cares about black girls? And then that also linked into the ways in which we view value and beauty

and this continuum of devaluation black girls experience into womenhood in relation to sexual abuse, that actually when we think of the concept of value, we don't think about black girls. girls don't come in that when we think about you know what beauty means black girls don't fit within that because it's very much based on a eurocentric standard of worth and beauty so if we only view black girls as being you know sexual objects actually it becomes an unconscious challenge then

to really understand their experiences. And what impact, Janine, does that have on the development of policies? Well, I guess when we think about the development of policies, we have to think about research. And currently research continues to not represent the experiences of black women and girls so therefore the current policies practices the tools and assessments which we use to support and engage with young people who have experienced sexual abuse are predominantly based on the experiences of white british girls so therefore the impact is that black girls are still missing

that practitioners may lack understanding and awareness of the explicit challenges and experiences black girls face and encounter. And Toby, I know you did seek help at one point and hoped that you would have a black counsellor. Why did you think that was important? I think going on from what Janine was saying, it's really important to understand against and cultural specificity. And for me, it was really important to have a therapeutic space that replicated my experiences as a black woman that kind of alleviated the pressures of having to explain misogynoir, anti-black racism, all of these things that adds to how I progress in the therapeutic space as well. And also having someone that was a reflection of myself and that adding to how comfortable I also feel in opening up in that space and talking about my experiences.

How easy was it to find one, Toby? It took a long time. It took a couple of years. And I think this is also, you know, really important because if I was to go through the NHS, I obviously couldn't guarantee that I would get a black woman therapist. and so I was having to go private and I was having to pay and finance then became an issue for whether I was able to access the help and support I needed as well and when I talked to other black women it's a very similar thing for them and we're all essentially just sharing names of like the three black women therapists

that we all know um who are already inundated with people um and so it it's a real issue to have that access for a black woman therapist in particular dawn from the perspective of the therapist what difference do you think it makes to your black clients that you're familiar with their community with the kind of concerns they might have that we've been discussing i think first of all though i think it's it's worth recognizing that there is an ideological resistance to cultural specific services or interventions kind of instead relying on a belief that everyone should be able to access the same universal service, which fundamentally ignores and highlights that there are cultural barriers to understand why BAME communities are less likely to access services or to consider that mental health is a culturally determined construct. I think there needs to be a keener

focus on the experience of black women. And I think what we tend to do in terms of the very limited research that's available is that we focus on outcome. And the experience is really important because I think it then will improve engagement with early intervention services and improve the experience of black women who come into the service many women talk to me um about uh that they describe the process of seeing a non-ethically matched therapist as an emotional and educational labor where their 50 minutes have been eaten away uh explaining something that that there is or isn't there or an emphasis on a suggestion of a problem in an area that there isn't one due to a lack of cultural understanding and janine just just one final point from you i i know you find the tag bame really unhelpful why well i guess i question what it actually means who are we talking about in research um when we use the word bame it's very unclear if we are focusing or talking about in research, when we use the word BAME, it's very unclear if we are focusing or talking about one specific community or another. So it means that actually we're at risk of

communities falling through the gap or voices continuing to be further marginalised. It also doesn't acknowledge the fact that just the word black itself, black communities, the heterogeneity of being black, you know, and the different experiences. And it also doesn't necessarily acknowledge that, you know, there are some specific challenges which black communities experience, such as for black girls, adultification, and how they're perceived as being less worth and, you know, less in need of nurture, less in need of protection. These are issues which explicitly impact on some communities more so than others. So when we use the terminology such as BAME, we don't get to understand those different nuances and, you know, differences.

Well, Janine Davies, Toby Cherimer-Teng, Dawn Estephan, Sophie Corlett, thank you all very much indeed for joining us this morning. And again, if you have concerns about what we've been discussing or experience of what we've been discussing, do send us an email. We'd love to hear from you. And we won't use your name if you don't want us to, of course. Now, still to come in today's programme, a call from the Howard League for penal reform for courts to rethink their decisions about placing women on remand. They say significant numbers are eventually found to be not guilty. And the serial, the fourth episode of Why Mummy Swears.

Now, Natalie Wood was one of the great stars of the film industry throughout the middle of the 20th century. She began as a child and then went on to films such as Splendour in the Grass, Gypsy and of course West Side Story. She was married to Robert Wagner when in 1981, when she was only 43, she died suddenly. She'd been on the family boat with her husband and Christopher Walken when she disappeared and was found to have drowned. For a long time there was rumour and speculation about how she had come to found to have drowned. For a long time, there was rumour and speculation

about how she had come to be in the water. Well, her daughter, Natasha Gregson Wagner, was 11 when her mother died. She's made a documentary and written a book, More Than Love, an intimate portrait of my mother. Natasha, why did you decide to record your mother's story now? Well, I became a mother in 2012 and it started to, I realized that my daughter is my mother's only grandchild. And so it is important for me that I clarify any misconceptions about my mother's death and her life so that my daughter does not have to carry that burden into her life.

What are your memories of your mother when you were, you know, you were only 11 when she died. So when you were really a very little girl. You know, I have so many memories of my mom um she was somebody who was very indelible and always around and always you know laughing and smiling and we she was throwing parties for us and singing songs to us and you know she was a very maternal mother she she really loved being a mom and I think she she put her whole heart into it how did you cope with the times when you had to be separated from her I guess when she was away filming yeah well luckily she didn't work very much when I was young uh she started she started getting back into it when I was about nine and she didn't work very much when I was young. She started getting back into it when I was about

nine. And she didn't, she wasn't gone for very long periods of time. But I was very attached to my mother. And so I didn't like it if she was away even for an hour, you know, or gone out for dinner, I would miss her terribly. So, you know, I would call her. I had the numbers of all the restaurants that she went to and often I would call her at the restaurants. You have expressed some concerns about your parents drinking. Why? Well, I think as a child, you know, you're very, you can really pick up on the nuances of your parents. And I could tell if they had had one or two drinks that their voices would change. And it made me feel that they had gone away and somebody had sort of come into, you know, that they weren't themselves in those moments.

And so I found it to be sort of unsettling. Now, you found out about her death on the radio. How was the news explained to you? Well, yes, I heard it on the radio, but I, of course, didn't know that it was true until my stepfather, Robert Wagner, you know, told me that that she had drowned. And so he told me and my younger sister, Courtney, at our house on Cannon Drive. What did he tell you had happened? It's hard to remember his exact words, but, you know, he just said that my mom, Mommy, had died,

that she had drowned. But, you know, he didn't know really what exactly had happened because she had been by herself and it was so confusing um but that's that's that's what he told me i mean that was the most important part of the sentence was that she was gone now over the over the years there was so much speculation so many rumors went around about who had been involved in it, how it might have happened. How did you live with all those rumors as you began to grow up? Yes. Well, you know, I think as a young child, I developed a muscle of detachment that I didn't even know I was developing,

where I just didn't take on board the gossip. Maybe it was a self-preservationist tactic. I'm not quite sure, but I know that it's hard to believe, but I really have not let all of that get in my way in my life. I've been able to push it to the side, mostly because I know so much of it is so preposterous. In the film, we see you interview what you call Daddy Wagner, your stepfather, who'd never given an interview before about your mother's death how difficult was it for you to sit in front of him and him to sit in front of you and talk about what happened that night it was incredibly difficult um it was sort of like you know walking on a tightrope because i was

i'm very protective of my daddy wagner and i love dearly. And yet I was also asking him to step outside of his comfort zone and talk about, you know, the worst night in our lives. So it was, it was, there were a lot of tears as you can see in the documentary why was he prepared to do it do you think well you know my he just turned he turned 90 in in um february of this year and i think it wasn't that he wasn't prepared in the past i think it it was just, you know, he trusts me and the opportunity presented itself with the making of the documentary. And so it was very important for him to set the record straight on his terms. He's very much a man who lives on his own terms, I might add. Now, he raised you together with his new wife. So obviously you spent an awful lot of time together over the years. What do you believe, Natasha, happened that night? Well, I just want to clarify, he raised me with my biological father Richard Gregson as well

um because I would spend all my summers in Wales um but what I believe happened that night you know I I deal with that in the book and I also deal with that in the documentary um but you know in in a short answer it was an accident and you're absolutely convinced of that oh yeah i i would never i i have never been convinced of anything other than that i know that in order to do this work to write the the book and make the film, you had access to your mother's letters, her notes and her photos, which were kept in a storage unit. What was it like to go through them all? It was incredible. It was sort of like, you know, dropping into some magical world.

My mom was quite an archivist of her own life. And so she saved every letter, you know, every everything. And, you know, so I was able to walk through the 40s and the 50s and the 60s and the 70s, the early 80s, her writing, through her letters, through photographs. And really, for me, what it did is just remind me that I didn't dream my childhood. It was real. And I lived it. And Natasha, which of her films is your favourite? Oh, that's such a hard question. I have so many favourites. Right now, my daughter Clover is eight years old and she loves musicals so we've been watching West Side Story and Gypsy um I I love a film that my mom

was in as a little girl called The Green Promise and then um I think Love with the Proper Stranger is is incredible one of my favorites It's really hard to pick. It is hard to pick, Natasha, but you went for West Side Story first, and that is exactly where I would have gone to. I was a great fan of hers. Natasha, thank you so much for joining us this morning. And I'll just mention that there's the book, More Than Love, an intimate portrait of my mother,

and, of course, the documentary, which is on Sky Documentaries and now TV. The Howard League for Penal Reform has published a report in which it calls for the courts in England and Wales to rethink the way women accused of crimes are often refused bail and put into prison on remand before their case comes up fully. According to the charity, significant numbers have been found not guilty, but their lives and those of their families have been disrupted by a short spell in prison. Well, I'm joined by Val Castell, Chair of the Magistrates Association's Adult Court Committee,

and Dr Miranda Bevan, a Policy Associate at the Howard League. Miranda, why do you believe this area of the criminal justice system has been overlooked? It's a difficult area. Judges and magistrates don't want to send women to prison, but the way that the process works makes it difficult for them to make fair and appropriate decisions. It's not widely known that nearly half of all women who go into prison do so on remand. That means that they're waiting for their trial to happen or they're waiting to be told what the sentence is. How long, Miranda, do they typically spend in prison on remand? Well, it can be quite a short period, maybe no more than a week,

but quite often several weeks, or it can be a number of months. And as we set out in the report, being in prison for a woman can be hugely damaging, even for a short period of time, both for the woman herself, but also for any children who might rely on them. And it's problematic for the prisons to have so many women on remand at any one time. Val, how do you account for almost two thirds of those women going on to be found not guilty or not receiving a custodial sentence? Well, when it comes to those who are found not guilty, when we're making the bail decision, we're not, of course, holding the trial. We're looking at rather different questions at that stage. So we need to look at,

there will be a trial in time to come. We need to look at what is happening in the meantime. So we're looking at the risks associated um everybody has a right to bail um so it's only where it's actually been applied for the the prosecution service have said uh we think there is a risk in this case we have substantial grounds to believe uh that let out on bail, this person will commit further offences, interfere with witnesses, fail to turn up for the trial. So we're looking at different factors. We're not holding the trial to weigh up whether bail or remand is the way to go on the on the basis of what you see in front of you and it has to be absolutely as you say jenny on the basis of what we see in front of us and the information that we have on the day um it's

as they we approach it on the basis that it's it's bail unless we are specifically um told otherwise and then we will look at and say based and say, based on evidence of what's happened in the past, based on information about that person, if we've got it, then we will make that decision. The more information we've got, the better that decision is going to be. Miranda, why are you concerned about the length of remand hearings? Well judges and magistrates aren't really assisted to make good decisions and everybody involved in those hearings is often really pressed for time and so Val talked about if we've got that information and that's one of the issues that we're particularly concerned

about, that if a woman was being sentenced, if she was going to have her liberty removed in that way, then the magistrate or the judge would have a pre-sentence report, which would go into the detail about the woman's life and the risk factors that relate to her. But for a remand hearing, that sort of report isn't required. And often there isn't the facility for magistrates to get a report of that sort. There are some sources of information, but they're not regularly available to magistrates. They have a very short space of time in which to make that decision and they have a complex decision to make. But they also don't have good guidance in law about how to apply the law. So again, if a judge was making a decision about sentence, there is guidance that they have

to follow so that they can apply the law consistently and fairly. But despite the importance of these remand decisions, there's no similar guidance for judges and magistrates when they make a remand decision. Val, would you say you have enough time, enough information, enough guidance to make a decision on such an important thing? We take the time we we need to um and the time for a bail hearing it's it's it's no standard time if we need to if we've got a complex decision to make um then we will take the time to you know to think about it properly and try to make sure we're coming to the right right decision at the end of the day. Sometimes bail decisions can be very brief.

Sometimes it's very straightforward that the prosecution service will say this person should be remanded because there is substantial grounds for fearing that they will interfere with witnesses. The witnesses in this case are very vulnerable. There's no conditions we could put on the bail that would make sure that they were kept safe in the meantime. Defence might not even contest that. Quite often bail hearings, you know, the application for remand is not contested. That's not to say that it's automatically given in those cases.

We would still make the decision but it's sometimes it is very obvious and the evidence is there to say yes this is the right decision and sometimes it can be a very quick decision sometimes we'll be really you know quite a long time exploring possibilities for alternatives because we can put conditions on bail if we think that there are conditions which will overcome the fears and we don't need to remand in those cases. And sometimes it can take a long time to get some information about what might be available. But it's true that there are no guidelines as there are sentencing guidelines. But what we do have are quite comprehensive pronouncements that we make, and those take us through what are the possible grounds to believe that these things might happen and the reasons why in different situations it would be valid to refuse bail.

So we do have some guidance, but not as comprehensive as the sentencing guidelines. Miranda, what changes are you hoping for? So we would very much hope that the hearing process could be reviewed so that there is proper information available, not only about the woman appearing before the court, but also about the services that are available for her in the community. There are some amazing services for women in the community that could help to address some of the reasons why she came before the court in the first place.

Well, I'm going to have to stop you there. Thank you both, Dr Miranda Bevan and Val Castell. I'll just tell you what the Ministry of Justice told us. We want to see fewer women entering prison and have invested more than £7 million into community services which help female offenders address the underlying causes of their criminality, such as mental health problems and substance abuse. Women's prisons also offer a range of innovative support services

and we're trialling residential women's centres as an alternative to custody with the first due to open in Wales next year. Now in response to the discussion about therapy some of you emailed to share experiences. This one says I'd like to remain anonymous. I was very interested to hear the segment in black women's mental health this morning. I have to say I made the decision to go for therapy after my mother had a mental health breakdown and was sectioned two or three times in 18 months. It was a great decision for me and was done as I counted down to a big trip to Zimbabwe. I was taking on my own to try and reconnect with the place I was born and explore who I was.

I had a white male therapist and in the visualisation exercises we would do, I would sometimes say, if you're going to be in this scenario, you will need to be black so as not to direct all attention to yourself by having a random white man in the room. He was very understanding

and just allowed me to share my story and unearth some of the deep hurt from my past. Having said that, I understand why people would search for a black therapist, but I think an understanding and compassionate therapist of any race would provide great assistance and that shouldn't be a hindrance to getting vital services. Bluebird on Twitter said, After some trauma, I had a couple of therapists. The one I connected with the most was a black woman. And it really changed my life because I felt she understood all the complexities that came out of the trauma. And then lots of you had

things to say about pensions. Anna said in an email, you haven't mentioned that women who had children or a care role before a date in the 70s are not credited for national insurance contributions. It's a disgrace that we can simply say women's pensions are lower than men's. Why? And why continue to accept the unacceptable? As an older woman, I'm becoming more and more aware of the structural nature of gender inequality and its disgraceful continuation. Despite working very hard all my life, some of it in full-time women's professions,

my combined pensions fall below the level of the minimum wage. Anecdotally, I know of no professional man in this situation. And then Laura Davies on Twitter said pensions are one issue no government has ever addressed, both Labour and Tory. Now we're hearing about ageing populations, it's time to get it sorted. Women in their 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s have propped up this country for too long. SF added on Twitter, Those who were at home caring for children in the late 1960s and 70s have not been able to add these years to their state pension.

All was forgotten and overlooked. Please do something about this. And Jam H123, also on Twitter on twitter said very useful piece on pensions why is the system so opaque i need to apply for child benefit even if you're not entitled to it no lessons learned from the waspy scandal thank you so much for your contributions to this morning's programme. Do join me tomorrow, usual time, two minutes past ten, when you can hear the first of our summer how-to guides and tomorrow we'll be discussing how to change career. How do you prepare yourself to do something completely different and learn how to sell yourself. That's tomorrow.

Joby then. Bye-bye. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.