Woman's Hour - Blues singer Elles Bailey, Author Abi Daré, Infants and domestic abuse

Episode Date: August 8, 2024

First to the news that thousands of anti-racism protesters gathered in cities and towns across England last night. They were rallying in response to a week of anti-immigration rioting and racist violence, sparked by misinformation over the deadly stabbings in Southport on 29 July. Thousands of extra police officers had been deployed last night but the protests were largely peaceful with few serious incidents. Some of the largest gatherings were in north London, Brighton and Bristol. To discuss, Anita Rani is joined by Labour’s Susan Dungworth, the Northumbria Police and Crime Commissioner, and Aisha Gill, a Professor in Criminology, Head of the Centre for Gender and Violence Research at the University of Bristol. The British roots, blues and Americana rock sensation Elles Bailey is a real trailblazer: she's a mother, a label boss, an artist, a champion of women in music, and she has been inducted into the UKBlues Hall of Fame. She joins Anita to talk about her unique voice, her new album and to perform live in the studio.New figures released today suggest that children under two are present at 13% of police call outs to domestic abuse incidents in England, amounting to around 185,000 babies and toddlers. So what can the effect be on children of witnessing domestic abuse? And what can be done to overcome the trauma they could experience? We hear from Lauren Seager-Smith, CEO of the For Baby's Sake Trust and Dr Sheila Redfern, consultant clinical child and adolescent psychologist and Head of Family Trauma at Anna Freud, a world-leading mental health charity for children and families.New York Times bestselling author Abi Daré discusses her much-anticipated second novel, And So I Roar, which follows tenacious teenager Adunni and her fight for freedom in rural Nigeria.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Kirsty Starkey

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and welcome to Woman's Hour. We have woken to images of anti-racism demonstrations across the country last night. People came out to stand for the values they believe in, motivated and mobilised to stand in solidarity with Muslims, asylum seekers, refugees, people of colour and stand against hate. This morning, I'd like to know how you're feeling and when the last time was that

you protested about something were you part of the women's peace protest on greenham common were you involved in a sit-in at uni did you ever join a march did you pack your suitcase along with your teddy and threaten to leave home at the age of four did you stop speaking to a relative or maybe you don't believe in protest because you don't think it works whatever your your thoughts, views and opinions, get in touch this morning in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can also email me via our website. The WhatsApp number is 03700100444.

Tell me the stories and the reasons you protested or didn't. Also on the programme, the Domestic Abuse Act 2021. Recognise for the first time that children who witness or are present in households where there's domestic abuse are also victims. We'll be discussing the impact domestic abuse can have on children and how interventions are being made to attempt to prevent it. And on the programme today, international bestselling author Abbey Derry is back with her second novel,

And So I Roar. For fans of her first book, The Girl with a Louding Voice, this is a sequel. What happens to a doonie? And I'm delighted Abby is here to tell us all about it. And we're not done yet. The Blues. But nothing about award-winning singer and songwriter Els Bailey will bring you down. That text number once again 84844. But first to the

news that thousands of anti-racism protesters gathered in cities across towns in England last night. They were rallying in response to a week of anti-immigration rioting and racist violence sparked by misinformation over the deadly stabbings in Southport on the 29th of July. Thousands of extra police officers had been deployed last night, but the protests were largely peaceful with few serious incidents. Some of the largest gatherings were in North London, Brighton and Bristol. We're going to hear from women about events last night and what the next few days could hold.

I'm joined now by Labour's Susan Dunworth, the Northumbria Police and Crime Commissioner. Two men and a woman involved in rioting in Sunderland on Friday have pleaded guilty to violent disorder. And last night in Newcastle, an anti-racism protest took place. Also joining me is Aisha Gill, a professor in criminology. She is the head of the Centre for Gender and Violence Research at the University of Bristol. She's also on the board of trustees for Ashyana Networks, a specialist violence against women and children refuge network that supports migrants and refugee victims and survivors of gender-based violence.

Aisha was at the anti-racism protest in Walthamstow in London last night. Welcome to both of you. Susan, I'm going to come to you first. What happened in Newcastle last night? Good morning Anita and thanks for inviting me on to talk about our experience in the northeast. Newcastle last night was quite literally amazing we've been through quite a torrid week since Friday and to watch those scenes of a community coming together,

people from across the region coming to support the community that is being targeted with this violence and stand in front of the immigration centre. And, you know, I've cried tears of absolute frustration and disbelief this week. And last night I cried tears of delight and relief to see that because that's our region, that's our city. Those are our communities. What were you actually preparing for yesterday? We were preparing for all eventualities, Anita.

So, you know, after the events in Sunderland on Friday, which we were prepared for, but probably even with the preparation, I don't think any of us have really seen that level of violence on the streets in the North East, and certainly not for a very long time. So we were prepared yesterday to meet any far-right demonstrations with the amount of force that we needed. We had officers drafted in from other areas of the country to support us. All our officers have had their rest days cancelled for a week now. We all day had a really, really strong, just police presence, no arms, no riot shields, just the police around in our communities to reassure people and to get the

message out that we wanted people to carry on their lives and not allow these people to win. And quite early on in the afternoon, the police protesters started to turn up and just stand in front of that building. The police were there all evening, 10 o'clock last night, Chief Constable rang me and said, it's been calm, just wait until after prayers, and then we're going to stand down. And some of the first people to be charged were involved in violence in Sunderland. Yes, absolutely, absolutely. So, you know, from a government point of view,

that support has been brilliant. So there is the agreement of transferring police officers around the country there's been um a commitment to support financially um police authorities um but also last weekend they brought in 70 extra lawyers to the um crowncution Service, which meant we could get quick decisions on charges. People were up in the magistrate's court first thing Monday morning. Some of those people remanded into custody until September. So that'll give them a bit of time to sit and think about what they're doing. And then other people who've actually been given prison sentences for their actions. So we're really hopeful that that's acting as a deterrent, that anybody watching thinking, oh, that looks like a

bit of fun, is actually now seeing the consequences of that, which ain't fun at all. Aisha, you were in Walthamstow last night on the demonstration. Tell us about the mood there. Yeah, the march personified hope, not hate, Anita. It really focused on love and sending out a message to these violent fascists that they are not welcome, that the chance where these are our streets, that refugees are welcome. And basically, Anita, standing up for Islamophobia and violent racism, and the movement of stand up against all forms of racism is hope, community action. And may I say, Siva, Siva, that is the opposite of burning hotels, housing immigrants, you know, reflecting on the last week, terrified.

Our communities are terrified. And we do feel that attacking us will not force us into hiding. I have received a lot of messages from my banner, my communities. What have women in the community been saying to you? Saying, don't go out, stay in. It's really, you know know it's really dangerous i was receiving calls from my extended family in the east midlands that um the edl had um gone out marching looking for uh targeting asian areas setting cars on. And that kind of level of terrifying violence locks us in. But we are the backbone of our communities. We are the backbone of our country.

And like the generations before Anita, who have lived through the fascist violence of the 70s and 80s, we are not going to be silent. We're going to stand defiant and send out a message that our communities, we will protect our communities. We will pull up our sleeves, but we also call on our government. We also call on our politicians, our journalists, who have been complicit in the normalization of Islamophobia, racism, and they also need to be called to account. I know the government, and I appreciate, Susan, the amazing work that's going on in our communities, and hats off to our police for ensuring that those who have committed heinous violence weaponized the appalling violence of three young girls who who died in in southport and to hijack that weaponize that by willful ignorance and

misinformation to and to terrify our communities our streets well we are going to we historically have reclaimed our streets we will continue to reclaim our streets and and in terms of you know just thinking about what's going on and what we're looking at in the next few days we will we are still scared we're still terrified but we are gonna put on our boots we're gonna get our holdies and our Binars and we're going to go out there and we are going to protest. Bill now, by the way, is a rolling pin. Susan, people are still scared. Communities are still worried, as Aisha's just said.

Absolutely. And rightly so. When they've either been part of, witnessed the events of the last week or just watching it on television. We get that. The police force's first priority is to protect the public, always. And we are there doing that is what we want to reassure the community. We want people to live their normal lives. But we accept

that they might be fearful of doing that so my reassurance is the police are going to have a presence for us obviously we've always got a presence but we're going to have an enhanced presence across our communities until this

calms down Is more violence expected this weekend? I think we have to work on the premise that we could have people come again and try and cause violence this weekend. So you will be aware there is a list that has circulated on social media that has been encouraging people to go along to events and to date they have

actually done that with the exception of yesterday where they didn't so that might be where we've got that that break in it some of that that deterrence might also be working and I think as well it's for us as a police force it is that balance of we want people to not just live their lives, but to say, no, this is not our country. But we also need to keep people safe at the same time. I think it's important, Susan, as it is Women's Hour, to understand the role that women are playing in dealing with the disorder. Absolutely. So if we're looking at it in terms of the leadership of the response to the events and then in the aftermath, Sunderland, we had a meeting convened first thing Monday morning,

which was chaired by the deputy leader of Sunderland Council, Kelly, who is a woman. Also there was Kim McGuinness, the North East Mayor, myself as the Police and Crime Commissioner, the Canon from the Minster in Sunderland, and our Chief Constable and our Deputy Chief Constable are women as well. So in the North East, women are actually leading this rebuttal. But I think in communities as well, very women have been have taken part in these events lots of women took part in the events last night but we haven't seen many women out on the street I'm going to bring Aisha in just to ask about that so how has this impacted women's

particularly Aisha? Very significantly and we know that violence against women is an epidemic and one of the things that we found over the last few days is that additional support has had to be put in place for refuges and shelters particularly those women and children who who are living in these spaces who are fleeing gender-based violence um there is real fear about leaving their homes to to go out to go to the g to health centres. So, for example, the work of Ashiana project has been critical to make sure that staff put those safety measures in place. The legal immigration support services have also been significantly impacted. That's one of the reasons why we were in Walthamstow yesterday to protect the Immigration

Advice Bureau. And so we've had to take measures in terms of removing solicitors' details online on social media platforms. The bi and for specialists, black and minoritised groups across the country have been mobilising, have been working with local community safety support teams to monitor incidents of hate crime. And there's also mobilization. We are working, you know, our movement of protesting against all forms of gender-based violence works alongside the anti-racist movement. Runnymede Trust, Southall Black Sisters, the Three Hijabis. We are creating spaces online

we are mobilising and we are protecting our sacred spaces our services our mosques our Sikh temples mandirs organisations like Hela Project in Newcastle

Apna Hak in Rotherham Sister Space in London we are the many Aisha Gill thank you so much for speaking to me this morning Rotherham, sister space in London. We are the many. Aisha Gill, thank you so much for speaking to me this morning. And also Susan Dunworth, 84844 is the number to text. I asked you at the start of the programme when the last time you protested about anything was. Steph in Halifax has been in touch to say, I was involved in the women's peace movement in Hereford in the early 1980s. We used to visit Greenham Common and I was at Embrace the Base.

It was a lovely time to be with fabulous women. John in Devon says, when I was a child of about eight, I'm now in my 60s, there was a threat that houses were going to be built on a field, which all the local children played in. My friend and I got up a local petition and with the help of some adults, we delivered it to the council offices.

I visited the area again only a few weeks ago and went up to the field although it's a little smaller now because of some building work most of it is still there and there are football goals which replace the jumpers we used to use for our 20 aside football matches a successful protest well done john at eight years old um now on to my next guest. She's an award-winning Nigerian author whose debut novel, The Girl with the Louding Voice, made the New York Times bestseller list. It follows Aduni,

a tenacious teenager who flees to Lagos, escaping her forced marriage in her village. Well, Abidere is finally releasing her much-awaited second book, a sequel, and the future is looking positive for our heroine. In And So I Roar, Aduni's been rescued from working as a slave to a woman in the city, taken in by her new friend Tia, and she's overwhelmed with excitement about her first day at school. But one knock at the door changes everything, sending her back to the village where her story first began. I'm delighted

to say Abby joins us now in the studio. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. We are excited to have you here. First novel, a huge success and you decided to write a sequel, not another book. Why was that? So I have the story that I always tell. My mother, who hadn't read a word of fiction in about 30 years, read The Girl with the Louding Voice only because it was during lockdown. So she's a professor of taxation. She's a prolific academic. Not even because it was her daughter. Not even because it was me. So she's stuck in Lagos. I mean, she loves me, but you know, she's too much in love with her

academia work. So she's stuck in Lagos and she picks up my book and she reads it. And she calls me up and she says, I've just finished reading your book. And I go, okay. She says, but it's not really finished. She says, there's a lot that needs to happen. So my mother goes on to tell me exactly what she feels needs to happen in the sequel. Amazing. Yeah. And I'm not listening to her because I was doing something else. And so I hang up the phone and she sends me an email five minutes later. And he says, dear daughter, I know you were not listening. So this is exactly what needs to happen in the book.

So I always tell that story as to I think that was a seed. But the truth is there are millions of girls like Aduni out there who are, you know, taking out of school to face all sorts of things. And I really wanted to tell this story, especially the rural women that come from Aduni's village. And that's really what this book is about, is about this girl's quest to fight for the rights of the girls in her village where she left. But also Tia's story as well, who is her friend, her much educated friend. We are going to talk about a little bit about the new book, but I want to know about the reaction to the first book. Did it take you by surprise? Absolutely. I wasn't expecting it at all. The first book was written in non-standard English. So I think my first thought was,

you know, who's going to get this? Who's really going to get this? Because I was writing the book. I wrote the book as part of my thesis for my Master's in Creative Writing. So for me, it was really about getting a distinction. And then to see the reaction, I've had a lot of pinch me moments. I'm so grateful and so humbled by all the love. And because of the reaction you got to the first book, was there any pressure to in telling this story further? Oh, my goodness. Did Aduni's voice come back to you easily? No. So I wasn't even, you know, the sequel was, the seed was planted when I had the conversation with my mother. But I didn't actually write anything until about two years later. This was after I had gone around a bit in circles trying to write something totally different.

So I parked that aside because I wasn't feeling it. And in the process of almost like a near breakdown, oh, my gosh, what am I going to write next? And it felt like, you know, I just had heard Adjani's voice come back. And the first line of what she says in the new book comes back to me. And I just lie down. I'm in my living room and I just start typing and it doesn't stop. And I'm like, yes, she's back. So I lost her voice and she came back.

That sounds almost spiritual. I know. I think she has this way of deciding what she wants to do. She's almost real to me. And to a lot of people. Absolutely. And you decide that in the new book, you don't set it in a city. It's not in Lagos. You take it back to a rural village. Why was it that you wanted to show us the lives of women in villages?

I think because they're often forgotten. We often forget that they're people, they're women, strong, powerful, resilient women who are building communities and economies in rural parts of the world, in this case in Nigeria. And Adunni still has to go back to settle a few things in her village. So it made sense to do that, to tie that up nicely. But also an opportunity for me to talk about some of the issues affecting these women, because they are real and they have a voice and they should be listened to. And so that was one of the reasons why I did that. And one of those is climate change.

Absolutely. She's forced to go back for a tradition which sees women being punished or sacrificed for odd weather. Tell us about the ceremony. So this is made up, by the way. But it was me looking at so many things that women are blamed for and saying this is almost the same thing. Like women are blamed for so many things. And in this case, they've not had rain. the last time they had rain was the day Adini was leaving I wasn't gonna when I was writing the second book I didn't realize that until I went

back to the first one oh my gosh there's torrential rain on the day Adini left and after that there's been sporadic rainfall as it has been across the world we've had issues with different sort of climatic patterns happening and so adenine is blamed as well as other girls for various things happening and so they all come together um and i use that as almost like a metaphor for what women go through and being blamed for so many things gender-based violence is the woman's fault and fgm and fgm is the woman's you had did you have you had to include it i did have to because it's one of the top things that affect girls from rural communities. Educational opportunities for girls is also a strong theme throughout your book.

We see Aduni sleeping in her uniform the night before her first day. It's amazing. You started, and off the back of this, you started your own education foundation. What's been your experience of working with young girls from these rural communities? Unreal. It's been absolutely amazing. I went back to Nigeria, I think, early this year, and I met young girls from underserved communities that many of them were going to school, but their education was provided by a donor.

And having conversations with them and seeing just the spark in their eyes and the desire to make a change, seeing just the spark in their eyes and the desire to make a change to be the difference in their families I mean I met a young a 13 year old girl who was in year one so primary one she was in year one and the her classmates were tiny but that did not deter her she didn't feel like the only one that was it felt like almost like I don't know meeting Adini again but this girl had so much to give and has had so many dreams. And it's just amazing to see that. It just makes me feel like there's a lot to be done.

And I feel like I'm doing, even if it's a tiny thing, I'm doing the right thing here. Had you had much experience of rural Nigeria before? No, no. It's funny because when I wrote The Girl with the Louding Voice, that was my first foray into that. You know, the book was inspired by housemates who had come from rural communities. And then obviously researching that, then speaking to women and just realising these women are so, they're so amazing. They have so much to say and to give. They're so powerful. Was it the inspiration, an argument with your teenage daughter about loading the dishwasher?

Yes, absolutely. So that story is, I asked my daughter to help load the dishwasher. She still complains about that, by the way. And she said, are you going to pay me for this? And I said, look, there are young girls like you who do this kind of work and don't get paid. They don't live in a nice house and all that. And she said, why? And so that brought me back to going to living in Lagos and having housemaids. My family had housemaids around about the age of my daughter, eight years old. And it was very common, still is very common. And so that was my first sort of maybe a closer look at these lives.

And it's changed me as a writer because obviously I have this foundation, but I really want to hear more stories. Every time I meet a rural woman, I want to say, why do you sell what you sell? You know, you sell corn. Why do you do it? So Aduni is opening your eyes. Absolutely. Also, since writing your first book, you've also been on a personal journey with your father who you hadn't seen for 30 years. Tell us about that. So my parents separated when I was about around about 10 years old.

And my mother had to raise us. And my mother had to provide for my brother and I, paid for our education. Education is very, good education, I should say, is very expensive in Nigeria. And of course, as an international student, as a proud immigrant into the UK, it came over 24 years ago. My mother had to pay for all of that education. And so I had no contact with my father at all until about four years ago when he called us up, called me up and we had a very dry conversation, as you can imagine. But then he passed away in 2023, December 2023. And grieving his death was very surprising for me because for the first time in 30 years, I went back in 2022 because my brother called me and said he had this feeling.

So my brother lives in Leeds and he called me up and said, look, Abby, I have a feeling he's going to pass and we haven't seen him in so long. I don't want to see him in a casket. And I said, oh, I don't want to go because I don't know what to say to him. What do you say to somebody you've not your father who you've not seen in so long? What do you say? What do you say? But I couldn't, that night I just couldn't sleep. So I had this conversation with my family and he was decided to go, for me to go. So I booked my ticket and I went.

We met in a hotel in Lagos and we talked about his farm and the Nigerian government, which felt a bit like talking about the British weather when you sort of, there's a lot to say, but you don't know where to start from. And so when he died, I felt there was a lot of grief in terms of this. We'd lost so much time. So how have you been? How has it been grieving him? Have you been able to? I think when my mother called me and said to me that he'd passed, I said, OK. And I hung up the phone and I went to sleep because I wasn't sure how to react. And then I wake up at 3 a.m. and the house is really quiet.

So I crawl into the bathroom. I sit on the closed toilet lead and I let out this guttural wail and I'm weeping and crying and I'm just in so much pain for all that we could have had like he didn't even know I was a writer he didn't know I had the girl with the louding voice out he knew I had two daughters but he didn't he'd never seen them and that was hard and grieving that through Christmas and slowly coming out of it but coming out of it but coming out of it with the realization that I'm going to always there are two people I'm grieving so the father that was in my life for a very short time and the father that was never in my life and the father I've imagined him to be so the one I hoped would have walked me down the aisle

and that's a really hard thing to navigate um and um you know there's many characters in your book that that seem autobiographical is it a way of processing i think so yeah um your your story is remarkable um that your tenacity to get your books the first book published you have been passionate about writing since you were four years old and here you are with your second novel out. And it's still a Dooney's Journey. It is. Is she still in your head? Is there a third book? I think she's gone shopping right now.

Who knows? And what about your third book? You've been here for 25 years. Could it be set in the UK? Oh my goodness. I have so much to say about the UK. And I hope I can do that. There's so much to say.

And then come back and tell us all about it. Absolutely. Abby Derry, thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. It's been wonderful. Lots of you getting in touch about the times you've been on protests. Rita says,

in the late 1960s at Cheshire College of Education and All Girls Teacher Training College, we protested to be allowed to wear trousers to lectures. We won. Maraid says, I protested in the early 90s in Ireland. I marched to get condom machines in the girls' toilets at college.

It worked. Nikki Honeywell in Blythe says, I was at the protest yesterday with my daughters aged 20 and 24 in North Harrow. As a passionate anti-racist, I wanted to send a message to the far right that they aren't wanted on our streets. They don't speak for me. Keep your thoughts and opinions coming through. 84844, that text number. Now, two weeks ago, on the 23rd of July, the National Police Chiefs Council at the College of Policing

reported that violence against women and girls had reached epidemic levels. Police chiefs say that domestic abuse remains one of the biggest demands on policing, with arrests for domestic abuse-related offences increasing by over 22% in the year ending March 2023. New figures published today by the charity For Babies' Sake Trust suggests that babies aged zero to two are present at 13% of police call-outs to domestic abuse incidents in England, amounting to 185,000 babies and toddlers annually. These figures are extrapolated from 15 responses to Freedom of Information requests sent to all 39 police forces in England. The Domestic Abuse Act 2021 recognised for the first time that children who witness or are

present in households where there is domestic abuse are also victims. Well, to discuss this and the effects on babies and children and what can be done and should be done to help them, I'm joined by Lauren Seeger-Smith, CEO of For Baby's Sake, the charity behind the figures. Her organisation works exclusively with parents of under twos, providing trauma-informed therapy for both parents, working with separate therapists. And Dr. Sheila Redfern, consultant clinical psychologist and head of family trauma services at Anna Freud, a world-renowned mental health charity for children and families, about their work with children and with the domestic abuse charity Refuge.

Sheila and Lauren, welcome. Lauren, I'm going to come to you first. Tell us more about this research that you've published. Yeah, we work with babies and families who are impacted by domestic abuse. And we were just really curious to understand better how many babies and young infants were present at police call outs for domestic abuse, which is why this came from a place of curiosity. We put out those freedom of information requests to police forces. Fifteen of those forces were able to come back and we could see from that data that with those police call-outs there were 13 around 13 percent of those call-outs there were babies and under two were present at those call-outs. Why do you focus on that age group? So we began the work

at the For Babies Sake Trust really looking at what was missing when it came to breaking cycles of domestic abuse and what came up in those early days in that research, in that work with survivors of domestic abuse, was a lack of support within the first 1,001 days of a child's life in pregnancy. And we know that 30% of domestic abuse begins in pregnancy. So it's a real time of risk for domestic abuse. And so we began the project, we began the work to really provide that therapeutic support to parents where there is experience of domestic abuse within pregnancy and in those critical early days of a baby's development. Why do you only offer support when both parents agree to take part? So we are quite unique in that we began the programme really in terms of looking at what was missing and what wasn't out there.

And what was missing was therapeutic support for co-parents where they both wanted to be involved in their baby's life but where there'd been experience of domestic abuse and we know from the work from the domestic abuse commissioner that there's a really significant lack of support for families that do want help to change and that includes those using abusive behavior so our program works with co-parents works with them separately with a very careful risk assessment to provide that support to bring lasting change. Well, we've got an example because we're going to hear from a dad and a mum. We're keeping them anonymous, who've taken part in your therapeutic programme.

They're speaking recently to Anna Foster from BBC Radio Newcastle. I was raising my voice shouting and that was upsetting my partner a lot. It was bringing flashbacks of her past with me shouting. So with that happening, I didn't understand that from my side because I've never been in that kind of situation before. Like every time he would raise his voice at me, I'd get scared and I'd get really nervous and that's all I wanted to do is leave the house

so I can have like five minutes so I can breathe and just come back to normal, really. If normal is the right word. Yeah, and it can be scary. Those situations can be scary, can't they? And on the reports here, Dad, I mean, in this information that I've got, it talks about you sort of reporting your own behaviour to authorities. Can you just talk me a little bit through that and you being aware of that behaviour? Yeah, I wasn't happy for my anger and shouting as such. Saying and eventually understanding how my partner was receiving it

really upset me and I didn't know how to fix myself as such. I wondered what it was that made you feel that you could ask for help, mum. I'm not too sure, just... Had you kind of reached a point, do you think, where you just thought, we've got to get help? Pretty much, yeah. So talk to me a little bit, if you would, dad, about going to those sessions

because I wonder what that's like when you're having to kind of face up to your own behaviour that is upsetting. It was really hard because I was getting put a label that I thought was a label that was too severe for arguments. Is that because you perceived that to just always be sort of physical when these things sort of can be mental and coercive and all of those things? Yeah. Yeah. So you had to sort of get your head around those labels. Yeah, and it was pretty hard the first month or so to get through that.

A lot of people just believe domestic abuse is violence and it's not necessarily exactly what you said. Physical violence, it's also mental behaviour. It's a lot of things I didn't want to scare her. To me, shouting made people take notice of me. Now, it makes it a lot easier with an argument. She'll sit down, we'll talk through it before it even goes to a situation.

How different do you feel now mum totally different like i feel a lot safer well i felt safe with him i just it was just when he would shout to me i didn't feel safe but now i don't think he's raised well we've had like little it does disagreements or things which everyone does i just feel a lot safer and I'm more loved. And what about your family situation now? I believe you've had your baby, haven't you? Yeah, she's a year and a half. Does it feel like a much happier home then?

Yeah, of course, yeah. A lot. A lot happier. Me understanding that and seeing that problem and the effect of what it was having on my partner, it changed my thought process completely I felt I felt really guilty thinking of that and it changed me extremely and and now when you're in your family unit how does it feel for your baby knowing that exactly it for the baby's sake there is a a a more stable and calmer environment for your little one. How does that feel?

It's great to know that she's safe, getting the lessons of us being good parents, I hope. Us as good parents, I hope. And her being able to understand that and mirror that in her future life so giving therapy to both the adults in the situation obviously is going to make them in turn become better parents and have a better relationship I think we'd like to sort of think about uh what the impact of um babies this age group that you're working with, zero to two, has on them? Because I think most people listening, Sheila,

I'm going to bring you in here because you're a clinical psychologist and head of trauma at Anna Freud. People might think, well, if they can't remember it, how is it impacting them? How does it affect babies? Yes, what we know from the research and the way that babies and young children present is that it has a huge impact on them.

Some will be witness to the violence. The majority might have been on the receiving end of some of that violence as well. And so working either through parents, if it's a young baby, to help that parent regulate the child or working with very young children with the protective parent is part of what we're doing in our Family Stories project with Refuge. And what you see in young children is all sorts of disturbances in, say, their behaviour, in their play, in their sleep. So a child that might usually be able to separate quite easily at night and sleep through will suddenly not be able to separate. Perhaps a child who was continent and was starting to be toilet trained might suddenly regress. So there's a really significant impact on children's just normal development. Not all children will develop full-blown PTSD but a lot will. So what we're doing and looking at

with early intervention is how we can prevent those children from developing full-blown symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder. How does that manifest? Well it can manifest itself in all sorts of ways. So children might become very hypervigilant to sound or to smell. There might be a sight that suddenly reminds them of the violence. It could be something really innocuous that other adults won't be aware of, like, say, a dress that a teacher is wearing that might remind them of something their mum was wearing when they were subject to violence. Or it could be a car backfiring in the street that will suddenly cause that child to explode and be really, really upset. And it's very hard to settle them. But for some children, they just freeze and they withdraw. So some

children don't show all those obvious signs, but they become extremely quiet, they stop playing. So all the kind of normal developmental milestones that we'd see in babies and young children, suddenly there's a regression there and normal development doesn't take place. And that's what really the interventions are about. And what happens as these children then grow up? Well, I mean, as they grow up, then the consequences for their mental health and their physical development are really severe. So anxiety is a really, really big problem for children who've witnessed violence, they become extremely anxious, chronic depression. And then in later life, if it's really bad, you often get young people who reenact the violence themselves,

they might enter into relationships that are unhealthy and unsafe for them or they might start using substances to manage the distress that they feel. So there are all sorts of consequences. And is that what you're finding, Lauren? Well, absolutely. I mean, we were set up to really look at how do you break those cycles of abuse. And for the families that we work with, 66% have complex mental health needs, 69% have six or more adverse childhood experiences.

One in seven of those parents were care experienced. And so sometimes I think that's not necessarily understood, the histories of our families. And one parent said to us that their baby had had the best start in their family as far back as anyone they could remember. And so very often these patterns have been repeated throughout family histories. But the good news is you can intervene and change that. It was only recognised 2021 really that children are victims. I think there may be a few adults listening who will have been child victims of domestic abuse and they may be triggered listening to this. What advice could you give them? Well, I think the most important thing for them to know is that it's never too late to get help.

And that help can be just as effective as an adult as it could be with a young child. So our Family Stories project at Anna Freud is obviously working with mothers and young children to try and prevent later symptoms. But the kind of interventions that we're using, which are mainly cognitive behaviour therapy with narrative therapy and bilateral stimulation, those things can be just as effective with adults who might be listening to this program now who've been affected bilateral stimulation so that's where it's sort of left right left right tapping it's really a way of helping someone to process information that's too distressing for them to process normally so we you

know we and you do that with children and you do it with children you do it with parents with very young children. So a parent might have a child on their knee and they'd be tapping left, right, left, right. So people might have heard of EMDR where it's rapid eye movement. And what the research shows us is that if you combine that with CBT, then it actually helps children to process those distressing memories in a much more, much quicker way and in a way that they can integrate then and make sense of. Because children are very confused when they witness these events and they often feel responsible.

And Lauren it's estimated that one in five children are affected by domestic abuse there'll be lots of our listeners who are experiencing it now or in the past and are worried about themselves and their children so what advice would you give them? Yeah we know that significant numbers of people don't ask for help because of a sense of shame or a sense of stigma around domestic abuse for that advice is please do talk to somebody please talk to your gp health visitor and midwife somebody that you trust talk to your family and your friends you don't have to remain in this situation also you can contact the national domestic abuse helpline but do reach out for help thank you lauren seager smith ceo for baby's sake and dr sheila redfin thank you so much for coming in to talk to us about that. And for more information and support about domestic violence, please head to the BBC Action Line website.

84844 is the number to text. We've had a statement from the Home Office who say the scale of domestic abuse suffered by women and children in this country is a national emergency. And this government will use every lever to halve violence against women and girls in the next decade. It's the government's mission to halve violence against women and girls within 10 years. The law explicitly recognises children as victims in their own right and we'll continue to work with agencies and organisations to ensure they own their obligations. Now you, our listeners, have suggested some brilliant topics in the past, from living funerals to communal living, and we've featured them on the programme. Now, with Listener Week just over one week away, we're excited to hear what you've got for us,

whether it's a thought-provoking trend, a unique lifestyle, a visit to your community, or a fresh take on everyday topics. We would love to know what piques your interest. So send us your ideas, big or small, and we'll read them all and we'd love to bring your suggestions to life here on the programme. So get in touch with your ideas in the usual way. Text me on 84844 or contact us on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website. Looking forward to hearing what ideas you've got for us.

Now, the multi-award winning British roots, blues and Americana rock sensation, Els Bailey, is a real trailblazer. She's a mother, a label boss, an artist, a champion of women in music, and she's been inducted into the UK Blues Hall of Fame. Now hot on the heels of winning this year's Live Act of the Year at the UK Americana Awards and Vocalist of the Year at the UK Blues Awards, Els has a new album, Beneath the Neon Glow,

and it's set for release tomorrow. She joins me now live in the studio. Welcome. Hello. How are you feeling? The new album comes out tomorrow. I can't believe it, honestly. We announced it back in April, I think. So suddenly this album that I've been talking about a lot

is now everybody else's. Tell us about it. Yeah, so it's an album that is all the different kinds of love in my life. And it really tore me apart, like writing this album. And then I also felt like I put myself back together. So I feel like this album is just like an extension of my heart and all of the scars and the imperfections. And I'm now sharing that with everybody.

Well, we're very grateful. It tore you apart. In what way? I just, I really was going just roller coasters in 2023 and it was just written with some really amazing career highs and then just like bouts of like real lows as well and and all of that was sort of I was going through as I was writing this album. What was going on in 2023? I don't and that's the thing, I don't, it was just life, life and what it throws at you, really.

So, and how you roll with that. You treat songwriting like a nine to five job. I do, yeah. Is that right? So what does that mean? You're up at your desk? Well, it's, I think often people think songwriting is about waiting for inspiration to strike.

And it does. And that is amazing. And I have been in that moment where it feels like a song is coming through you and you're just a vessel to sort of get it out there. But it doesn't always happen that way. So for me, I think the hardest part about songwriting is showing up. And if you show up, you're probably going to walk away with a song at the end of it. I think there's a good lesson in there.

Actually, Abby, who we had on earlier, writes all the time. She said, I know that she's been writing from the age of four. So it's like you have to exercise the muscle. Exactly. It's exercising. Exactly. You know, you might not write the greatest thing that day, but at least you're doing something and you're writing it. it so when i'm writing an album that's how i treat it uh this year i've written three songs so don't be hard on yourself you've got an album coming up let's let's have a listen to one of the tracks off the album this is leave the light on it's

for your husband it is yeah and he's listening right now. And Radio 4 is his favourite station in the world. Nick. Nick. Well done, Nick. And he left the light on for you. He did, yeah. Actually, I'd been on tour and I was actually in London and I missed my train coming home. I've been away a lot. We've got a toddler as well. And I felt really guilty. And when I got home, the light was left on. And it was just this really sweet gesture of I get it. And then I went out for the run the next day and started writing this song that's really autobiographical. And it's about me. And it's about my journey and the push and pull that this life, you know, brings,

especially when you have a life at home and a small child and then you're going away and you're coming back. And it was just a love, an open love letter to him and my family that, you know, I count down the miles until I come home. It's beautiful. You have such a gorgeous, sexy, smoky, dusky voice. What's the story behind it? Because there's a really good one. There is a story. Yeah, when I was when I was very little, I got very, very sick and actually got the last ventilator that was available in Southmead Hospital in Bristol and I was in a coma for 17 days and then when I came out of it I had to learn how to walk I had to learn how to talk my earliest memory is being in a hospital room with a nurse holding

me up and then trying to see if I could stand and I couldn't. And then it's me falling over. So that is genuinely my first memory. And then when I started to learn how to talk again, in its place of my normal voice I'd had was this very dark husky tone that has continued my whole life. So you wouldn't have this voice had it not been for that terrifying experience in your childhood. Yeah. And you met a specialist in vocal chords, did you, at one of your concerts? Yeah, it was, I never tell this story live. And just, it turned around that I was on a show in Germany. And I just decided to tell the story. And in the audience was a man who came up to me afterwards and said, I specialize in working with people who've had trauma on their vocal cords after they've been intubated. What are the chances? Yeah, what are the chances?

Like, I never tell that story. I do hundreds of shows. And then he sort of taught me through why I have the voice I have because I've never really understood it's just all been a part of this story and he sort of went through the science of it and uh and then he he turned around and said you're so lucky because so many people have real real trauma where they can't communicate anymore and it's about teaching them how to communicate after this kind of trauma. And he's like, you've walked away with a story and a voice. And a gift, yeah, absolutely.

So where did your interest in blues and Americano come from? It came from my dad's record collection. So growing up, listening to the band, the Eagles, the Nitty Gritty Dirt band. I grew up in a household where uh the Rolling Stones and the Beatles played so um yeah I just listened it was just all his music Charlie Daniels and uh but did you were you into it at the time or were you listening to other stuff like when did you decide that this is the style of music you wanted to sing? So I was in an indie band throughout my teens and into my early 20s.

And then I was with my brother and he decided to take over the family business. I then went to uni to study psychology because I wanted to become a counsellor. And then in my final year of uni, I started working on what is now the Ells Bailey project that you hear. And I heard Etta James' Something's Got a Hold on Me. And that song, I think, changed my life. And it just set me on this path that has led me here today and led me right back to the roots music that my dad used to play us. And took you all the way to Nashville as well.

What was that like? I've been going to Nashville since 2016 now, which is just amazing and surreal. And that is also to do with my dad as well. My dad turned around and said to my mum, Hey, Lynn, do you want to do a road trip around the southern states of America? And she said, who's going to look after the dog? So he was like, fair point.

Fair enough, yeah. Fair point. Lynn's right. Els, do you want to come and do a trip around the southern states of America it's like yes mum can look after the dog so me my dad and my husband uh were planning to go to uh Memphis New Orleans Nashville Atlanta and unknown to me my dad just started contacting like people in Nashville and at this point I'd covered Taylor Swift's Shake It Off and it was that cover song that got Brad Knoll interested and he invited me over to Nashville and within a week I'd met Dan Auerbach from the Black Keys and Bobby Wood I'd written with Bobby Wood and Roger Cook.

I would say Roger, he's actually from Bristol, which is where I'm from, but resides over in Nashville. And he wrote a little known song called I'd Like to Teach the World to Sing and played golf for the rest of his life. But yeah, I was writing with them. And then we ended up making Wildfire, my debut album. And then I just have this whole relationship with Nashville that I never, never in my wildest dreams thought I'd ever have. What a wonderful story, Ellis. What a great turn of events to happen in your life. And here you are with your brand new album out,

which is coming out tomorrow. Yeah. Beneath Neon Glow. And you're going to sing live for us. We are, yeah. Tell me what you're going to perform. So I'm going to perform a song called 1972, which was written on my last trip to Nashville

with Jess Gromit and Willie Morrison. And it's a song that is drenched in nostalgia, but it's actually a song for 2024. It's written about my craving to stop living through my phone and oh mate putting my phone down yes and living in the moment how do we so we go we have to go back to 1972 to do that well yeah something like that we picked we picked a very cool era to celebrate but yeah and it's a very cool video as well i love the outfits that you wear in the video. It's so fun, isn't it? That's the hippie shake.

If anyone wants some 70s inspired outfits, head to the hippie shake. Yeah, watch the video. I'll let you go and take your place at the microphone. I love it when we get to hear live music on Woman's Hour. And accompanying Els is Demi Mariner on guitar. So this is Els Bailey performing 1972. Yes! Els Bailey and Demi on guitar with a tambourine.

Well done. That was incredible. I have to say I failed, though, because I got my phone out to film you. Oh, it's all right. Mid-performance. So it was sort of 1972, Via the Modern Day. Thank you.

Best of luck with the new album. It's out tomorrow. Elle's barely there. Thank you. And thanks to all of you for listening. Remember, keep your ideas coming in for Listener Week. It's next week.

Anything that you may want us to talk about, whether you're in an interesting group or there's a woman that you want to platform that you think people should know about, get in touch with the programme. 84844 is the number to text. Join me tomorrow. I'll be speaking to South African soprano Golda Schultz about overcoming extreme stage fright and going on to sing in some of the world's most celebrated opera houses. So until then, enjoy the rest of your day. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

Hello, it's Simon and David here from When It Hits The Fan. And we'd just like to tell you about our bonus series of mini episodes that's coming up over the summer. That's right, Simon. Quick Wins is the place where we answer your personal PR questions and share everything we've learned along the way about how to manage your reputation at work. That's right, David. We'll be answering some of the questions you've sent us from how to deliver on welcome news, dealing with backstabbers at work, and how to be an effective leader.

These short and sweet how-to guides will be popping up in our feed, so make sure you're subscribed to When It Hits The Fan so you don't miss them. They may just change your working life. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

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