Woman's Hour - Bobbi Brown, Domestic abuse & family courts, Black maternal health film

Episode Date: October 14, 2025

Bobbi Brown is a make-up artist turned entrepreneur who created her now famous eponymous line in 1990. Her fresh-faced approach went against 80s and 90s trends at the time for bright colour and contouring and instead aimed to celebrate and enhance women’s natural beauty. She made millions selling her brand to Estée Lauder and has gone on to create a new multimillion brand. On the release of her memoir, she joins Nuala McGovern to talk about her life and work.The family courts are failing to take domestic abuse seriously despite it featuring in nine out of 10 cases, according to a new report. The report reviewed hundreds of cases and found that judges sent children to stay with a potentially unsafe parent in more than half of them. It said safeguarding concerns were often downplayed or ignored in court. Nuala speaks to Nicole Jacobs, domestic abuse commissioner for England and Wales, who instigated this research.A powerful new short film, 22+1, premieres tonight at the BFI London Film Festival during Baby Loss Awareness Week. Written by Pippa Vosper and directed by Pippa Bennett-Warner, it follows Ruby, played by Bennett-Warner, as she loses her baby 22 weeks plus one day into the pregnancy. Drawing on Vosper’s personal experience of baby loss and Bennett-Warner’s lived experience as a black woman, the film shines a light on the inequalities faced by black women in maternity care. They both join Nuala in the studio.Last week, we looked at what impact the Women's Summer of Sport could have on grassroots participation. Today we look at the economic impact. Can women's sport call itself big business now? Something that many say will be crucial to its continued growth whilst others say it may risk losing its heart that makes different from men's sport. Joining Nuala to discuss is Dr Christina Philippou, associate professor in accounting and sport finance at the University of Portsmouth, and Sam Agini, sports business correspondent at the Financial Times.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. A new season of Love Me is here. Real stories of real, complicated relationships. It's not even like a gender. I mean, it's wrapped up in gender, but it's just a really deep self-hate. I think I cried almost every day. I just stole myself on the floor. He's coming on really straight.

It's like he's trying to date you all of a sudden. Yeah. And I do look like. my mother. Love me. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Nula McGovern and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. While you're here, I wanted to let you know about the Woman's Hour Guide to Life, your toolkit for the juggle, the struggle and everything in between. Life is complicated and often incredibly busy. So whether you're fixing a problem at one of life's crossroads or just looking to shake things up

bit, this is the guide you'll need to help you survive and even thrive. Each episode brings together world-class experts with women sharing their honest, powerful stories, offering real insight and also practical tips that really work. From work and career to relationships and family issues, the focus is on helping you grow, also adapt and overcome life's curve walls. It's your companion, your life coach, it's your Woman's Hour Guide to Life. Join us only on BBC Sounds, but now back to today's Woman's Hour. Hello and welcome to the program. Well, all the papers this morning lead with photos of emotional reunions after the release of Israeli hostages and Palestinian prisoners and detainees. To keep across the latest developments in this fast-moving

story, you can go to BBC News. There is a live page with regular updates, including including next steps for Gaza after the ceasefire deal. Here are some of the stories we will be addressing this hour. The family courts are failing to take domestic abuse seriously. That's according to a new report. In a moment, Nicole Jacobs, the Domestic Abuse Commissioner for England and Wales. Also today, we will hear from Bobby Brown. Now, many of you will have one of her products in your makeup bag.

She created a billion-dollar brand, but then walked away at 59 and started a new company in her 60s. Bobby told me that when she was in her 30s she expected that by 62 she would be ready to retire but oh boy was she wrong she is still full of passion

energy creativity and I'm wondering is that you do you find that you are not done despite what your younger self might have thought well tell us what you've started or created the way to get in touch

the number is to text is 84844 on social media or at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or voice note, it's 0-3700-100-400-444. Also, we'll speak about what can be the failings in maternal care for black women, an issue highlighted in a beautiful short film called 22 plus one. It will premiere tonight at the BFI at London Film Festival. And we also ask, can women's sport turn itself into big business? That's all coming up. But let me begin with

the family courts. They are failing to take domestic people. seriously, despite it featuring in nine out of ten cases. This is according to a new report. It also says the children are being put at risk by a court system that takes a dismissive attitude towards victims and fails to recognise certain forms of criminal abuse. The report reviewed hundreds of cases and found that judges sent children to stay with a potentially unsafe parent in more than half of them. It said safeguarding concerns were often downplayed or ignored in court. The report was instigated by Nicole Jacobs. She is the Domestic Abuse Commissioner for England and Wales. Welcome back to the

program. Your reaction to the findings? Well, the findings show really clearly, as you just said, that domestic abuse is the everyday business of the family court. And yet we have a court system, which is unequipped to understand domestic abusefully, to consider it as a live issue, as of course it would be, and to really safeguard adequately. particularly child victims of domestic abuse. This is something that we have long suspected. I know Women's Hour has covered this, but this is a report which is really backing that notion up

with comprehensive research that we've never been able to do before until now. So interesting, you mentioned live issue, active issue, as it's also described domestic abuse within these cases. But the report highlights how outdated the views on domestic abuse are among some legal professionals. So how would you address that? There's a real need to understand the range of ways that this isn't only about the knowledge

of court actors. It's about the fact that the court is overstretched, never has been set up in a way to prioritize the context of each and every child and their. their exposure to domestic abuse, the fact that they're victims in their own right. There's something about the court that's never been set up to succeed in this way. And then if you add on to that,

the fact that we do have cases within the court system overstretched and in need of a great many resources to improve, that all conflates into what we see today. So it's not one thing, but you're exactly right that the lack of knowledge about domestic abuse, the lack of understanding is an issue that must be addressed. And the way you can start addressing that is to bring that information out into the open much, much earlier, understand it in a very specific way, explore the domestic abuse in a specific way. And I think even the way we're speaking about it now, Nicole, might still seem kind of vague. or amorphous to the listener that doesn't have experience off domestic abuse. Can you get really specific?

I know specifically with figures that the Commissioner you found evidence of abuse within 73% of hearings it observed, 87% of the case files it reviewed. So obviously it is rife. But tell me why is it tricky or difficult for people to see that there's a problem there? Imagine a victim of domestic abuse who's approaching the court. This is a really often a one-off exposure to the family court system. Victims say to me that they expect when they make or raise any concerns in relation to domestic abuse that they will be understood. You really is a as a first stepping stone, the victim themselves has to be able and with,

willing to use that term. So in other words, there's so much that goes wrong along the way, being able to raise, feel confident to raise the issue and concern about domestic abuse because that is impacting the child entering into systems where sometimes you're representing yourself, keep in mind many, many people within the family court system because of cuts to legal aid and other issues are not able to have representation, representing yourself in a complex system that you don't understand very well. And expect, as we all would, that if you did raise something like domestic abuse, that it would be fully understood and explored and then

realizing that that's indeed not happening, that some, that many times is cited in the report today, victims of domestic abuse are told, don't raise that. You might not want to say that. why the perception could be that that might then be misconstrued it might not be taken seriously it might complicate matters there's all sorts of things that are put in the way of the court understanding fully the context of domestic abuse so there's there's so much that goes wrong and of course these are not systems as as we all know that we're very exposed to they're very private proceedings. People come into these systems kind of having one expectation and then coming out of them with an absolute kind of bewilderment in terms of the lack of understanding

and support that has been taken place. And the end result for that is not just any kind of misunderstanding. The end result is literally the decisions about children often being taken that are unsafe and victims, as we've defined them in the Domestic Abuse Act, as children as victims in their own right, are not feeling and being understood. And that does put them in harm's way when those decisions that are life-changing are being made. And when those decisions are made, I suppose to change that outcome would be a whole other process. That's right. We've found, I've talked to many, many victims of domestic abuse who have been in out of the family court system for years. Because the context of domestic abuse, the understanding

of how that is playing out in the court is not fully understood, there's not a court system that's set up to address this. One of the things that I'm recommending out of the report today is that the government has been piloting some specialist court in this area, which are bringing a lot of the exposure and understanding of domestic abuse much more to the forefront. We need an urgent renewed commitment by this government about the expansion of this court model using some of the ways that I've explored and have been able to bring this report to light in terms of being in court, observing in court, looking at case files. We need to apply that same methodology to these pilot courts to make sure that they are actually achieving what they say

they want to achieve. And you've mentioned the heavy workload and some of the poor decision making, but I do also want to acknowledge good practice that the report found too. That's right. I mean, one of the things I really struggle with is Commissioner is wanting to see these changes, but also wanting to acknowledge that, of course, some good work is being done. for example, Pafcasts in England and Wales have in the last year renewed their policies in practice in relation to domestic abuse. We have these courts that I just mentioned that have been piloted, which show a lot of promise. But I suppose if it's nearly 90% of the work in family court, we know that it is business as usual.

We must have a government that fully resources and prioritise. really leaning into these changes and making sure that they are doing what they say across most areas, most of the courts in England and Wales today, the things that are in my report will be at play, this lack of acknowledgement, this lack of full understanding, viewing domestic abuse as historical, no child victim or adult victim of domestic abuse would ever consider the abuse they have suffered to be. be historical and not impacting them in the present. And so we have to prioritize these changes. And

with that, just to talk about, because this area, of course, is such a sensitive area, Manny push for a pro-contact culture, which in some instances, if I'm understanding correctly, you

would say that it is unsafe for certain children to be with certain parents that have been abusive. in the past, but how do you tackle that pro-contact culture? I believe the law is very clear on this in terms of the Children's Act and the prioritization of child safety and the child welfare being paramount over anything else. So I would encourage, and I do believe, that most do look to that

is the kind of first kind of influence the court should have. To do that properly, you have to have the right information in front of you as a judge. The system has to be able to produce for you the right information. In these courts I was mentioning earlier, the specialist courts that have been piloted, that's what's essentially happening is the resource for the court is prioritizing a child impact assessment for each child as early as possible. That really helps us focus on the welfare of the child. I think then the presumption of parental involvement confuses that.

I believe it should be removed and that that's an urgent call to the government. This is something we've been asking the government to do for many, many years now, in fact, because we do have a legislation which points us very, very clearly to the priority of the safety of the child over all else. And that is what we should focus on and make sure the information the court has is focused on. on that. Nicole Jacobs, Domestic Abuse Commissioner for England and Wales, thank you very much for joining us. And I just want to remind our listeners, if you have been affected by any of the issues we're discussing, you can go to the BBC Action Line for more information and sources of support. We did contact the Ministry of Justice for a statement, and Baroness Leavitt said the

horrors that domestic abuse can bring on children are unspeakable, scarring them for life. And as a government, we want to do everything in our power to stop this epidemic. That's why we're improving family courts by helping families get the support they need faster and a reformed model reducing case times by 11 weeks on average and ensuring children's voices are heard. This is about protecting children, standing up for victims and making sure justice works for all who need it. I do see this listener was getting in touch while I was speaking.

My children were giving increased contact with a clearly violent man. They were victims in themselves and social services exacerbated the problem by saying no safeguarding concerns because, I managed the situation of limiting exposure as much as I could. So from a survivor, they're getting in touch anonymously. If you want to get in touch, 84844. Now, now it's turned to Bobby Brown. She is a makeup artist turned hugely successful entrepreneur

who created her brand in 1990. Her approach was to encourage women to celebrate and enhance their natural beauty rather than using any garish colours or contouring. Her line quickly became a huge success. It was bought by Estee Lauder, for a reported 74.5 million dollars many years ago and she continued working for Estee Lauder

as the creative head of Bobby Brown Essentials. You might know she launched her new line, Jones Road, in 2020 after a 25-year non-compete clause with Estée Lauder after that came to an end. She has written a memoir, it's called Still Bobby, and she joined me in the Woman's Hour Studio. We started by going back to New York in 1980, where she started out as a makeup artist.

It was pretty crazy. New York was, first of all, so exciting to a young kid from Chicago who just left Boston. It was the era of Madonna. It was the era of disco, Studio 54. And, you know, the city was intense, but I didn't see the intensity. The city, I just felt the energy. Madonna was in your exercise class, I read in your book. Yes, Madonna was in my exercise class.

I didn't know who Madonna was. was the girl in the back that was so phenomenal. You couldn't stop staring at her. And one day she just didn't come back. And then desperately seeking Susan came out. And that was the start of her career. What an era. Yeah.

It kind of does sum up, though, what was going on at that stage. And I mean, if I think about Madonna as well from the 80s, I immediately think of, you know, blue eye shadow and kind of pink streaks of a blusher, for example. But that wasn't you and has not been you, as we know. Why did you come to makeup in such a different way? You know, I didn't realize that I was being a disruptor. I always do things that make me comfortable and feel natural. I tried to do that kind of makeup, and I just thought it looked terrible.

I just didn't think blush should sit on the cheek in a line that it should look like your color of your cheeks when you exercise. And I thought foundation should be the color of your skin. Not revolutionary ideas. It was Jerry Hall, right, that you made up at one point of it, you know, everybody knows Jerry Hall. You put on the makeup, but then afterwards? Well, first of all, she was so lovely and she was such a big famous, you know. Supermodelry.

Yeah, at that point. And I was hired to do her for a cover of British Cosmo. So I did her makeup as well as I could. And she was so lovely. She looked in the mirror. She goes, oh, thank you. It's beautiful. Do you mind if I touch it up?

And I said, not at all. And I watched her redo her in time. higher face like contouring. I couldn't do that kind of makeup. But the thing about you, some people would massively get the hump if that happened. You write about it, you know, in quite neutral terms of like, this is something that happened. Now, I don't know whether you felt like that at the time. You know what? I felt it was an opportunity for me to watch and learn because I didn't know. I really didn't know. And I was not secure enough to think what I did was great. So when she was doing it, I was watching her technique.

And by the way, I honed a lot of my makeup skills at Fashion Week with all the models that had one name, Linda, Cindy, you know, Naomi. They all touched up their faces. And I would watch them, little nuances, how they did the eyebrows, the lip. And first of all, as a woman, I understand, we need, you know, you get a blow out from your hairdresser and then you kind of need to make it yours. It's the same thing with makeup. You come a very entrepreneurial immigrant background. How much do you think that was just part of, I suppose, your drive and particularly that launch of 10 lipsticks, which was the beginning of Bobby Brown?

Well, I think certainly as a kid, you learn things not necessarily in school, but by watching. And I did always see my father, my mother, my grandfather, my aunt and uncle, worked really hard on their, you know, their work, you know, their careers, car dealership, my dad was a lawyer, Papa Sam had his own business, but they started with nothing. And so I kind of understood there was a journey. Did you ever imagine when you created those first lipsticks of how successful they might be and what it might grow into? Absolutely not. And honestly, if I would have had a crystal ball that said Bobby Brown, here is your life, I would have said, I don't want it. Talk us through a little bit of the explosion of success that then led

Bobby Brown, the person, selling Bobby Brown, the company, to Estee Lauder. Well, first of all, I look back at that time, you know, my husband and I were in our early 30s. We just started, we had one kid, we lived out of the city, started to have another. And I was just continuing to work on this lipstick line until I had an opportunity to go into Bergdorf-Goodman. And then, you know, explosion, yes, but I would go to work. I'd be, you know, really excited. I'd be worried about what's happening at home, like any working mom. Which is all through the book. Yeah. You know, look, I was never cut out to be a full-time stay-at-home mom, but I was never cut out to be a full-time working woman. So I've somehow always been able to kind of combine both. And, you know, what that means is you're not doing

everything perfectly, but it's okay. Now I know it's okay. But coming back to those lipsticks, they start selling, Estée Lauder gets wind of it. Leonard Lauder is the person who's kind of your contact. Right. Actually, it was six years since we started the company because my husband and I started selling out of our house, those original 10. And by the time four and a half years came, we had almost a full line. So we were the number one line in Bergdorz, and we were the number one line at Neiman Marcus. And, you know, we were beating Estee Lauder. And basically what he called, that's what he said. You're beating us in the stores and I would like to buy you. And I remember saying that's so nice, but we're not for sale. Why were you not for sale? Because we never thought

of selling. Like back then, we didn't. You know, now everyone starts these companies and like, we need, we need an exit. We need, I'm like, why are you starting a company that you just want the cash. To me, that doesn't make sense. But that's another, that's another story. It's kind of part of the story, though, because your passion is there. It's not about the money, because you could have left a long time ago, if it were. Right. It's my passion is there. And even after the company was sold, I really felt that I still own the company. This is my first baby. I started it before I had children. You signed a vested order, yes, okay, big figures, exchanging hands, but there was a non-compete clause, which you happily signed.

Tell us the details of the non-compete clause and also the age you would be when it expired. Well, I was around 35 years old when we sold the company and I, when my husband said, the deal's done except they want you to sign a 25-year non-compete, which I never heard of. I never heard of a non-compete. And I started to think and I'm like, huh, in 25 years, I'll be a 25 years. my 60s, I'm not going to want to work then. You know, when you're in your 30s, especially back then, 60 was old. And when I left S.D. Lauder, I was 59 point something. And all of a sudden, I had four and a half years left on a non-compete. Which meant you could not work.

In beauty. Yes. I could not work. You couldn't compete against Estée Lauder in any way, shape, or form. You know, I'm sure lots of people who have their own business will feel this way. You want things to be a certain way. And within Estee Lauder, it did for many years until it didn't. And you have various chapters about talking about when things went really right or when things went wrong. There came a period when, of course, stuff is online, it's influencers. Estillard wants to perhaps go a different way in a way that you do not want to go. Leonard Lauder, who is a real ally, isn't there in the same capacity anymore. Talk me through that time. I am the kind of person up until the bitter

end, I thought, if I can only get support around what I want to do, it would change everything. Like, I believed it then. I believe it now. But I didn't because, you know, there were powers that didn't agree with me and wanted to go in a different direction. I mean, could you imagine when I was there, would I ever have done a contour palette? Never, because I don't believe in contour. You know, would I do things to change the color of people's skin or do, you know, full coverage is not a Bobby Brown the person thing at all. So there was a lot of, you know, tough days. You know, honestly, I think back of those days, I was really miserable. Many women will come to a point in their careers in their late 50s where their values are not aligned with the workplace. And they just don't

want to take it anymore. Yeah, of course. Right? And they're ready to throw in the towel and maybe start something new or whatever it might be. But you had that. Non-compete clause. I couldn't do makeup. So I did a bunch of other things. Some not so successful. Some others, you know, yes, successful. And when I finally got to launch the new makeup brand, you know, I had worked on it secretly because I had a non-compete. I couldn't talk about it. I thought it was different. And I realized I were talking about Jones Road. Jones Road. And I realized I wasn't done. I wanted to teach women that it doesn't have to be. that serious. You could look great by using makeup in a different way, different kind of formulas. Yes, you see color in your lips and your cheeks, but your foundation just looks like your skin is so much better, which is why our very first foundation is called WTF. What the foundation? Because when I put it on... Didn't know where you were going there, buddy. I'm politically correct. But do you think I could and named that at the old company?

I don't think so, but I had no one to say that's a terrible idea. That's divergent path in what you wanted and what Estee Lauder wanted at that point. It's a very specific moment in time. Because I'm a bit older, I can totally remember when contouring came in and filters and tweakments, to be quite honest. And everything changed, if not overnight, definitely in a short space of time. And you've been outspoken about not getting treatment, so that could be filler or Botox or facial surgery.

When I think there is ever more a proliferation of it, how do you see, I don't know, that evolution, that time from, let's say, when the first severe contouring slash tweakment was coming in? Well, the contour thing has been around forever. I mean, you know, Jerry Hall and all of that. True, true. I just was not someone that thought it made people look better. You know, I don't personally like Botox.

I don't like filler. I don't look down at anyone that does it. People are allowed to do whatever makes them feel good. You know, my husband's always the one that says to me, they think they look so good. They don't. Like my husband happens aesthetically to be more comfortable with my natural aging than if I was doing something.

Do you think that aesthetic will go out of fashion, because now we're seeing what some would term extreme facelifts, for example. You don't have to look too far before you see it flooded on social media when somebody gets something done and people kind of picking it apart and how much it cost and was it worth it and does she look amazing? And I'm saying she, because it's usually a woman that we're talking about here. I mean, do you see that going out of fashion? Well, look, I think it's really difficult to age on social media in front of people.

People are pretty mean, you know. So it's not about how I look that defines me. You know, yes, I'm always on a TV show or some kind of something. And I'm, you know, like I don't like the way my neck looks on, you know, depending on the lighting. The great Nora Ephron who wrote the book, I feel bad about my neck. I think of her often. Yeah. And by the way, I thought she was crazy when she wrote the book because I was 50. My neck was fine. She was 60. And now that I'm 68. And, you know, some days my neck looks great. and other days it doesn't. Today it looks great. Because I'm not on HDTV. By the way, HDTV was invented for football and sports, and it was invented by a guy. Never thought about us women. Well, I do think there is options.

And there's a lot of women. I'm not the only one. And I could really tell when someone hasn't had worked on. And I say that with love. You haven't had worked on. Correct. And I like the way you look. And I haven't had worked on.

And I see my lines. I like the way you look. Thank you. And I see my lines in my forehead. And I'm like, okay, it needs a little more moisturiser. And maybe I'll put a little more blush on to get my attention away from the lines. But I look healthy and I feel good. And, you know, I don't always post all the pictures where I look really bad.

I post the ones I look really good. I'm, you know, I'm human. So much interest in makeup now, right? There has been just a huge boon, I suppose, everything from social media as well. And if somebody wanted to make it in this, you know, the makeup business now? What would you say? Well, I would say the same thing now as I always did, you know, just try a bunch of different things. Just get started, you know. And it's a good life? I think it's a great life. I mean, my makeup career has brought me into probably a lot of the kind

of places that yours has brought you in, that you're like, what am I doing here in the presidential motorcade? How did I get in this car by being a makeup artist? Because you did Dr. Biden's makeup. I did Dr. Biden's makeup. And literally, they, like, threw me in a car with her assistant. And I'm with all these guys in suits. So I don't know who they are. And one of them turns to me and says, who are you? And I said, I'm a makeup artist.

And then someone said, well, she's not just a makeup artist. She's Bobby Brown. And I said, who are you? He said, oh, I'm your secretary of defense, Leon Panetta. And he said, let me call my wife. And she'd be so excited. And I'm like, how did I get here? And then the Secretary of Agriculture was there where I decided to say to him, you know, we have to

do something about our food supply. The food is much better in Europe. There's not as many chemicals. And he looked at me like, shut up. No, instead you went on to help advise as well. Thank you so much for coming in. I've enjoyed chatting to you so much. Oh, my pleasure. Me too. The great Bobby Brown.

Her book is called Still Bobby and it's out now. I was thrown that out to you. Did you have that feeling that Bobby had about energy and that you're not done yet? Lots of you getting in touch. Here's one. I loved hearing what Bobby Brown is doing I'm 61. I've just started a full-time job and have other skilled work as a nurse and a coach as well.

All my friends are slowing down or hoping to, but I am hotting up. I feel that it has taken all my life to become this confident and gain all the skills that I have. Why would I not want to put those to use now? It would be such a waste. If you don't use it, you lose it. Ask yourself, if you didn't know how old you are, then what would you be doing? That is key for me. That's Charlotte. Thanks for that, Charlotte. Here's another from Rosie. Yes, I am 81. I'm still working full-time as an artist and exploring new ideas.

in media with enthusiasm. I have a solo show opening in London tomorrow called 81. Good look with that, Rosie. Thanks for getting in touch. 8444 if you would like to. I want to remind you as well about our new series of conversations, the woman's our guide to life. There are three episodes to catch up on.

How to keep connected with your friends when life is very busy. How to be ambitious without burning out. And also, the third one, how to juggle your finances and challenge your money mindset. We'd love you to join our growing community of listeners. You can listen to the Women's Hour Guide to Life by going to BBC Sounds. Search for Women's Hour, so the usual feed.

But just scroll down and you'll find those various topics and you'll see it written up there in the episodes. And if there is something you think we should be covering, do get in touch all the usual ways for Women's Hour. Texting, for example, 84844. A new season of Love Me is here. Real stories of real, complicated relationships. It's not even like a gender.

I mean, it's wrapped up in gender, but it's just a really deep self-hate. I think I cried almost every day. I just stole myself on the floor. It's coming on really straight. It's like he's trying to date you all of a sudden. Yeah, and I do look like my mother. Love Me. Available now wherever you get your podcasts.

Now, I want to turn to a powerful new short film, 22 plus one. It premieres tonight at the BFI London Film Festival during Baby Loss Awareness Week. It's written by Pippa Vosper and directed by Pippa Bennett Warner. Yes, I have two Pippa's in studio. It follows Ruby, played so wonderfully by Bennett Warner, as she loses her baby at 22 weeks plus one day into the pregnancy. It draws on Pippa Vosporus' personal experience of baby loss and Pippa Bennett-Warner's lived experience as a black woman

and it shines a light on the inequalities that are faced by black women in maternity care. These statistics are harrowing. They are 43% more likely to miscarry, nearly three times more likely to die during pregnancy or childbirth than white women. And the release of this film comes amid growing concerns about racism and maternal safety in the NHS. In July, the Health Secretary West Streeting said that the NHS has a problem with racism. Yesterday, he told a debate on baby loss in the House of Commons

that the deaths of women and babies during childbirth has been normalised. A study by the campaigning organisation five times more found that more than half of black and mixed heritage women had problems with healthcare professionals citing issues of discrimination, communication and neglect. I want to bring you a short clip from the film. for 22 weeks. Now, it says here that

mum wants a natural childbirth. Cool. Yeah, yeah, that's the plan, yeah. Yeah, they all say that. And on the day, it's why those drugs are the average overall. Okay, dokey. All good?

Great, all right, thank you, doctor. Actually, sorry, we've, um, we have some questions. Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, just things like about hypertension and preclampsia. You don't have. signs of any of those.

Oh, right, okay. Great. But I did read that black women are more likely to suffer for me. It's been on Google, I? No. You really have nothing to worry about. Great.

Great, okay, thank you. Yeah. It is agonising that scene, and I think every time the term mum is used, it feels aggressive. Pippa Vosper, Pippa Bennett-Warner, welcome to both of you. Thank you for giving us.

And I will call you Pip, Pippa Bennett-Warner, who is the director and also actor. Great to have both of you with us. Pip of Ospre, why did you want to tell this story? So when I lost my baby at 20 weeks in pregnancy, it was deeply, thank you. It was deeply misunderstood that this is a serious trauma. And so I wrote a piece for Vogue magazine at the time

where I said I kissed my baby's cold face and he was beautiful. And, you know, you, I gave birth in the bathroom of my home, and I carried my baby in my arms after he died to the ambulance and leaders of blood loss. And people, unfortunately, it's not their fault, but there's a misconception that pregnancy loss at any stage is just a little bit of blood and you get on with your week. Maybe you take two days off work. And I wanted to tell the real realities of the trauma and the grief. I then went on to interview 400 women during COVID to write a book called Beyond Grief, Navigating Precincts. pregnancy and baby loss. Again, lots of interviews with, you know, wonderful women, Elizabeth

Day, George Oliver, who really I said to them, could you just be super honest and just tell me everything if you feel comfortable? And they did. And then in the research papers, when I interviewed people all around the country, it was very clear, very quickly that women of colour's experience was deeply layered to that of the white women. You're given information for a reason. That's my belief. And I had all of this information and I couldn't sit on it. Also, I couldn't take it forward as a white woman. So I called my great friend Pippa Bennett-Warner, and I said, look, there's all this information I have

and people aren't listening, but they will watch a film. Will you do this with me? So four and a half years ago, we began this journey of raising finance ourselves, writing it with a co-writer, and I produced it, Pip directed it in stars. It is explicit and beautiful.

And I think actually, thinking back, I watched it last night, it is 20 minutes long. What you managed to pack into that and the feelings is really incredibly deep and affecting. Pip, I'm wondering, because my eyes are so drawn to you during that film, how did you approach showing Ruby, who's the character you play, her grief and issues that black women face within maternity care, but with such a light touch in some ways. Yeah, I mean, I think I was very keen and committed to not make a film that felt in any way

sort of loud. I wanted it to feel like you were sort of just dropping in on this moment. It's a quiet film. It's a quiet film that hopefully is loud within, you know, and it's sort of not issue-led, but the issues are sort of gently woven into it. But I suppose it's just, I suppose it's just, didn't want anything to feel

yeah too loud but the message had to be loud and I think because create being part of the team that created Ruby it just allowed me to kind of have that extra layer of access

to her do you know what I mean as opposed if I was just coming to it cold as an act to take on apart because I'd helped build her from scratch so in very normal settings that will resonate with people a party you go to, you've lost a baby, somebody else is heavily pregnant.

Yes. Which I don't always feel black women get the opportunity to be depicted in such a way on screen. So it was a really nice. Do you think that a film like this can create change in a way? Because we've had many conversations on women's there about the failings

in black maternal care, for example. I suppose I'm wondering what you think it can achieve. Well, I think film is to such a part. powerful medium. And we all know the data. We can all look at a pie chart and stuff. But I think if you're encouraged to feel something, I think it's then very different to not be able to act. And so, you know, we're hoping that people watch the film. Everybody's got 20 minutes. People can watch, you know, and sit and feel. And then it's impossible to look away. You have hosted private screenings in hospitals. I'm curious what that was like. Oh, my goodness. More than we, we were very nervous to show the film to the film to the the NHS. So in my book, there's an incredible obstetrician gynaecologist who's now the CEO of Evelyn, Gubi Aida, who helped me with my book on the medical side. And then we said to her, would you see our film and do you believe in it as one of the heads of maternity services

in the NHS? And she called us immediately and said, you've got it right. Because we don't want to slam the NHS. This is the last thing we want to do. We respect the institution. But equally, there are these failings that are now being spoken about with racism from where treating. So we did the screening in the Guys in St Thomas's Hospital in June and it was a collection of the leading maternity service heads in London and Great London and they've asked us to put it into maternity training

and they've asked how they can utilise the film within the NHS which is the biggest compliment to the film. Because there is the investigation underway at the moment Barna Samos is sharing a rapid inquiry into maternity care in England due to the report back in the coming months in December knowing what you know because you're very steeped in it both of you,

is there one particular aspect you'd like her to prioritise? I'll start with you, Pippa Vosper. I mean, I've been working on this for eight years since it happened to me and then obviously with the film, it's maternity care training. It's midwife training, which actually from research that we've done with the hospitals doesn't cost a lot. It's a time thing. And also it doesn't take that much time. the maternity training within the care in perinatal and postnatal

is so limited that a lot of the time these new midwives are learning from the elders and the elders have learned from the elders. So therefore, whatever was ingrained before is being trickled down through. Which is so interesting to think about because, of course, there's a lot of wisdom and experience which can come, but also outdated, perhaps thinking or practices as well. And I just want to attribute some of the things. figures I mentioned at the beginning as well. I mentioned 43% more likely to miscarry. That's

from the Lancet in 2022, black women. And the nearly three times more likely to die during pregnancy or childbirth than white women comes from the Embrace report. Pep, your thoughts? Yeah, I mean, you know, this is an urgent healthcare crisis. And I agree with Pepper that, you know, that it's about the training. And it's even possibly before, you know, medical school as well. the medical students need to be trained and educated in such a way. But by the time they're, you know, in the upper sort of parts of their education, those sort of everything's in place so that they don't go into the workplace like their elders and have these, as we call, you know, outdated.

I'm wondering also about some of the stories that you heard from black women. There is data that shows that black women are less likely to be given pain relief in labour. Would either if you like to speak about that? Yeah, I mean, we've spoken to multiple women and friends who, you know, have been in their pregnancies and, you know, and been denied pain care. And, you know, it's this very frustrating, outdated stereotype that black women are always strong and don't ever get to be vulnerable or, you know, white women are, it's fine for

white women, but for black women, there's this sort of odd, outdated. thing that we can't be vulnerable, we can't be in pain. And it makes me so sort of angry because it's just of course, of course black women can be. And I think that's also

another thing with the film. It's like, going back to what I said about rarely seeing black women kind of going through things that happen in life on screen and it not being in a loud way or, you know. So, yeah, it's I, we're very

committed as a team to really be part of the wider movement that is going on around is that the film can help push all of this forward and make real, real change. Yeah, and I might have mentioned the word outdated policies. Of course, they were never really right, no matter when it was that they happened. I want to thank both of you for coming in. Enjoy tonight as it gets underway and premieres at the BFI. and it's 9pm, I think it's the few West End screening again at 6pm on Thursday the 16th

at the South Bank, but it is part of the BFI London Film Festival. I do also want to say if you have experienced any of the issues that were raised by my guests in this discussion, you can find more support on the BBC Action Line website and my guess were Pippa Vosper and Pippa Bennett-Warner. Thank you both.

Thank you so much. I want to read some of your messages that have come in. I'm still working at 86 as an emeritus professor. It keeps my mind active. I also sing in opera societies and do charity work. When I was in my mid-70s, I attended a retirement dinner

for a colleague who was reaching 65. I asked him how he felt about retiring. He replied, When you get to my age, you will be only too pleased to retire. My GP said the reason I look so young and can do so much is because I keep doing things. So says Margaret.

Thank you, Margaret, for that message. Somebody else. I completely retrained as a girl. Gardner at 60 and I've 10 times more energy than I had when I was in a corporate job. So says Lauren. Another one. One more. At the Golden Age, this is Elizabeth, at 51.

I have embarked on a one-year primary teacher training course. My children are 17 and 19. Their lives are full and independent. So in many ways, it's perfect timing. I finally found my dream job. I'm relishing lectures and study after all these years more than ever before. It is energized my post-menopausal brain and it feels like a new era. It is never too late.

And remember, nothing ventured, nothing gained. Our age group has so much to offer. Thank you for that. And lots more coming in as well. I want to go back to black maternal care for just a moment as well because we do have a statement from the NHS which said it's completely unacceptable for black mothers and their babies to experience disparities in care.

The NHS is determined to make improvements and that's why we're rolling out best practice and anti-discrimination initiatives, building on the improvements, our maternity services have made so far. Okay, I want to talk a little bit about sport. The last few months, as you may know, saw the athletic achievements of women take centre stage

as the women's summer of sport took place. So we had a revamped netball league, the women's football Euros, the Rugby World Cup, in cricket the 100 returned, athletics was back to, that's just some of them. And there are records. We've talked about this, from viewership to attendances, records broken all across the board.

Last week, if you were with me, we looked at what impact these high-profile events can have on grassroots participation. Today, we look at the economic impact. So the question we're asking is, can women's sport call itself big business now? Something that many say will be crucial to its continued growth. While others say, it may risk losing its heart, and that's what makes it just so different from the men's sport.

We have two people to discuss this. We've Dr. Christina Philippa, an associate professor in accounting, in sports finance at the University of Portsmouth and Sam Ageny, sports business correspondent at the Financial Times. Good morning to both of you. Good morning. Good morning. Christina, let me start with you.

So let's take a look. Taking out the numbers. The financial impact of the summer just gone, can it be considered a success if we look at the bottom line? Absolutely. And when we kind of look at the bottom line, it comes in two places. You've already talked about records being broken

in terms of viewership, that's really good because for events like this, one-off events like World Cups, what you need is keep that momentum going. So feed into people watching events as they kind of come during the year, people watching the club game on a regular basis. And in order to showcase that, you need to have, you know, highlighted how much women's sport is actually commercially viable. And that's where that kind of all links to. together. So what we've seen is, you know, in women's football, we've seen broadcasting records, but we've also seen that translate into the transfer market for records in 2025 being broken. So that's clear commercial impact. Rugby World Cup. Again, we've seen crowds a bit early to tell,

you know, how financially successful it is, but we can tell that, you know, it's kind of, we had Ilona Mars come into the Bristol Bears. We're seeing Barbie dolls. You know, it's clearly kind of having a commercial impact in terms of what's happening. I suppose it's interesting though, Christine. I'm just thinking as you're speaking. Depends how we define success and depends how we define commercial impact. I think you might say that that doesn't possibly mean a profit in revenue. Yeah, absolutely.

And also we have to think long term, right? So a lot of women's sport, because particularly team sports, because it's been hampered by many years of lack of investment and being thought of the second best in comparison to the men's. So what that means is that a lot of women's sport is effectively in a startup phase. And if we look at startups in any industry, they lose money, right? That's the norm until they start becoming big business. Until they don't.

Let me bring you in here, Sam. Can it be said, and you have a great article on this in the Financial Times, can it be said that women's sport in this country is now big business? I think increasingly there's a case that it's big business. When you see millions of dollars, pounds of revenue coming in, increasingly that's the case. I think whether it's profitable at the moment, that's mixed. Football, for example?

Football. Look, when it came to the Euros, for instance, I don't think UEFA, as I was reporting, was budgeting for a profit at this time. They were looking for, you know, they're looking to invest. They're building something. And then you look at clubs, revenues are growing, but generally you would say there's losses, again, mixed. But I guess, you know, this isn't an issue unique to women's sport necessarily. I mean, when you look at the men's football,

I write about that a lot too, and there's lots of losses there, and we don't have the same kind of... Questions asked of whether it's viable or whether it's worthy if it's not making a profit. I understand what you're saying. And I will just mention UEFA, which Sam mentions there.

They run women's football in Europe that you might have noticed during the Euros. But, Christina, where does the big money come from? Is it, sponsorship, broadcast deals, attendance? Like, what makes money? It is a mix of these things. So traditionally we see broadcasting is very important. So the more money that comes in through broadcasting,

but also broadcasting is very important, like I said, for those eyeballs, which then brings in the commercial revenues. So if we look at something like women's football, for example, they're very dependent on commercial revenue compared to the men's, because that's where a lot of that money comes from. Match day. Also very important, obviously, how many people attend in stadiums, but also how much they spend in the stadiums and how much they spend on things like merchandise and food and beverage, because that all sort of links into the whole scenario. And for women's, particularly if we look at the club game, there's also some group support. So if you've got, you know, clubs that have both men's and women's teams, there is some support from the wider club. Yeah, you kind of can get the ramifications of the coattails, although some people might hate that phrase. when we're talking about men's and women's sport

and I understand that too. But some, you know, investors are needed, right? When we think about some of the big men's clubs, for example, you have these massive investors that are spending a fortune to keep them in, I suppose, not just kit, etc., but also putting them on the front pages. Tell us about Michelle Kang,

who's an interesting character in this space. Well, Michelle Kang has come in. I think the impact over here is she's bought team. Tell us a little bit about her. Yeah. So Michelle came into the WSL. She's been buying stakes in women's teams in the US in Europe. And I think she's really made the case that with investment, you can grow a business. I mean, she's made it very clear she's not in the sport for charity. She does see it as something that can pay off commercially and produce a return. And I'm wondering what Michelle's doing, Christina. Do you think others will follow her model? Yeah, they already are.

So we call these kind of multi-club ownership groups. So you have, you know, multiple clubs across various countries. So Michelle Kang is one of them. She's got, as Sam said, in various countries. But we've also got Mercury 13, who have Comer Women and Bristol City recently. And then there's a whole bunch of other clubs, other organizations, Crofts being one of them who are setting up this idea. And generally the whole purpose of this is you lower your costs

because certain costs, you know, kind of central legal, training, certain things that you don't have to spend more than once because you have multiple teams. So you kind of divide some of the costs and that makes it cheaper, which is the idea behind this. Just before I let both of you go, my last 30s, Seconds, do you think, Christina, are you worried about the women's heart of sport being lost when it searches for commercial opportunities? There is an element of that.

If you look at the demographics of the people watching, you need to think about how it grows, yes. Sam? No, I think the more money comes in. The players will benefit, teams will benefit. It can help grow. It needs to retain that spirit. It's important. The relatability.

So then they have to think carefully about what commercial opportunities, that they grab. Really interesting. Thank you both very much for joining us, Dr. Christina, Philippa, and also Samagini. Don't miss his article. It's in the Financial Times. Now, tomorrow, there's a recent report saying that between 40,000 and 60,000 women leave tech roles in the UK every year. I will be speaking to Liz Kendall, Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology,

and also the BBC's technology editor, Zoe Kleinman. We will find out more about what is happening. Also, finding out how Tourette's impacts women and girls that is all coming up right here on Radio 4 10 a.m tomorrow. Woman's Hour. I'll see you then. That's all for today's

Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. As part of Limelight from BBC Radio 4 this is the betrayed the story of a family torn apart by a political extremism sweeping across Europe.

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