Woman's Hour - Bobbi Brown, Lucy St Louis, Andrew Billen, Mary Anne Sieghart, Catherine Morgan, Julie Flynn

Episode Date: August 4, 2021

The shift to mask wearing and homeworking saw many of us ditch our make-up during the pandemic. Perhaps not the best time to launch a new beauty business – but that’s what Bobbi Brown has done. She talks to Emma Barnett about her new beauty range and her career in the industry.Phantom of the Opera was first performed 35 years ago in London’s West End. It’s the second longest-running musical here, the longest running show in Broadway history and has been performed worldwide and seen by more than an estimated 130 million people in 145 cities across 27 countries. It has just reopened and Lucy St Louis is playing the female lead – Christine Daee, the first Black woman to play this role. From George Eliot to JK Rowling, it is no secret that there is an assumption some men are put off by reading works written by women. But with figures showing men are four times as likely to pick up books written by other men than women, whereas women are just as likely to read books by men as they are by women, what is going wrong? And, does this affect other areas of writing? We talk to Andrew Billen a columnist with the Times, and to the author Mary Ann Sieghart .And we kick off a new series about Women and Money with two financial experts Catherine Morgan, the host of the In Her Financial Shoes podcast and Julie Flynn who's a financial adviser specialising in working with women who have lost their partner. We’ll focus on financial secrets - Do you have money secrets that make you anxious? That you can’t face and make you want to dive under the duvet? If so, we want to hear from you.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Engineers: Jo Langton and Tim Heffer

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to today's programme. Now, I know Woman's Hour has a healthy male audience, which is heartening and it is something I personally delight in telling people. But as you may expect, the majority of you listening right now, whatever you're doing as you go about your daily lives, are women. The clue, you could argue, is in the programme's name. And no, to our male listener yesterday who texted in saying we should be called

People's Hour, we're fine, thanks. But I am interested in those who would never listen to a programme like this. I always have been. Those who, you know, not converting to the, not preaching, I should say, to the converted, I always have been. And it speaks to a bigger trend about why certain men would never say, I don't know, read a book by a woman, share a social media post written by a woman, or even listen to a woman properly in a meeting or on a date where arguably you should have each other's undivided attention. Shortly, I'll be talking to an author, Emma Sieghart. Yes, a woman, Mary Ann, to give her a full name. She enjoys using something less obviously female when she writes to try and welcome male readers,

as well as, of course, just she might prefer it. And I'm going to be talking to her about her findings on men not reading books by women. But this is a much wider phenomenon, and it boils down to a perception of women still not being taken seriously as men and therefore deemed unworthy of listening to. Or that when women write or talk, it is that fellow women we are assumed to be speaking for and to, therefore men shouldn't tune in and just tune out. Of course, lots of generalisations there and you may be thinking this doesn't apply to me, man or woman or the other way around.

But my question there for you today, and I know that you want to get in touch on this, we've already had some messages, is how have you managed to get men to listen? Those that don't, those that perhaps don't take you as seriously as they should. What scenario were you in? What was the problem? To our male listeners, do you recognise this reticence or dismissal in yourself or other men that you know? What is it? What does it come down to? Tell me, tell us, do share. Maybe you don't think like this or care or think that this is a problem. You can also let me know what you think on 84844 is the number you need to text. On social media, you can get in touch with me in the programme at BBC Women's Hour or email me

via our website. Very much looking forward to what you have to say about this and sharing the data with you that proves this is the case, certainly when it comes to books. Also on today's programme, Money and Secrets, why so many of us are hiding things about our finances. An interview with the entrepreneur and makeup artist, Bobbi Brown Brown on why she's starting over again, and some music from Lucy St. Louis, the first black woman to play the female lead in Phantom of the Opera. But first, in what is thought to be the first criminal case of its kind, a man who raped a 13-year-old girl 46 years ago was convicted in court yesterday after the daughter conceived during his attack

led efforts to bring him to justice. Carvel Bennett, who's now 74, forced himself onto his victim in the 70s, who, after she found out she was carrying a child soon afterwards, was forced to put it up for adoption post giving birth. In court, she explained why she didn't give a statement to the police at the time. She said, I had suffered and I wanted to get on with my life. But it was only when her daughter turned 18 that she tracked down her birth mother and then by obtaining her social services record, she found Bennett named as her father.

The daughter now in her 40s confirmed Bennett was her biological father through DNA tests and she helped bring about a police investigation. This comes, of of course at a time when convictions for rape are at an all-time low. I'm joined now by the barrister Charlotte Proudman to discuss what could be implications of this case and Charlotte good morning. I thought we'd start by reflecting perhaps on how significant this is. Oh it's a hugely significant case and it's one that I really welcome and I think that both Daisy and her mother

have been absolutely remarkable in bringing this case forward and making sure that Bennett is convicted for rape. I mean this is extraordinary as you say it's landmark. The mother was 13 when she was raped, she was 14 when she had her daughter, Daisy, and then Daisy was taken into care and adopted. And it was years later when her daughter found her when she was 18 years old and she found her mother and she wanted to bring her father, Bennett, to justice for having raped her mother. And in doing so, she relied on DNA evidence to prove that Bennett was her father which is as I say an absolutely extraordinary case. Do you think this will mean others perhaps not necessarily in the exact same circumstances could come forward or do you think certainly as I mentioned about rape convictions being at a low at the moment that it may restore some faith in the system? I mean I hope that it

does restore some faith in the system because quite mean, I hope that it does restore some faith in the system, because quite clearly from the judge's comments, which are again, very welcomed, it showed that the daughter herself was also a victim. She was a victim of rape. You know, she lost her relationship with her mother when she was a child growing up. And her mother, of course, will have gone through huge amounts of trauma having been a victim of rape. But the fact that fortunately it's resulting in a conviction, of course, is welcome. What it doesn't necessarily show is the hardship that Daisy and her mother went through to get this case brought to the criminal justice system. So Daisy had actually gone to a number of different professionals,

to the police and other agencies to try and bring her father to justice. And she was fobbed off. In fact, she was even told that her complaint fell into the category of vexatious, oppressive, or otherwise an abusive process. So she battled for decades to get this case to court. She's now 45. So it certainly wasn't an easy process for her. And what she has said, and something that I would certainly agree with, is that we need a better recognition in the law of who is a victim. Daisy as a product, although she doesn't consider herself a product, as is understandable, of rape, she was conceived through rape, are also victims. And whilst, of course, she wasn't the

victim herself, and her mother was, she wasn't the victim herself and her mother was, she was trying to bring this case forward on behalf of her mother and she should have been listened to. I mean, as you talk about that hardship of getting the case to court, some may be thinking, what is it, and you will have had the experience of talking to people who've gone through the system or tried to go through the system, what is it about actually having your day in court that's so important? Because some may say they just wouldn't want to dredge this up again

in any way, plus with that distance you're discussing, it wasn't directly her. Well, exactly. It was Daisy that drove the case forward, and eventually her mother agreed as well to support the prosecution, which resulted in the conviction. But you're absolutely right. In some instances, victims don't want to necessarily come forward. And in this case, it was important that her daughter was driving it forward because of no doubt the trauma she'd experienced in being removed from her mother. But having your day in court, for want of a better expression perhaps. Sorry, I'm probably using film language that you never use in your world,

but you get the gist. I certainly do get the gist. It is monumental for many, many victims who have told me directly as their barrister that they have felt for the first time that they have been heard particularly when there is a guilty conviction or there's findings of rape they feel that they have been listened to and that the justice system has brought about the conviction that they were hoping for and not only that they know that others will be protected and in this, what Daisy has said, I think quite rightly, is that because

authorities turned a blind eye to a father at 28 who'd raped a 13-year-old girl, you know, he was allowed to continue his life and could have potentially harmed many other women and girls. And so having a conviction sends out a very strong message that this person is dangerous and that hopefully others won't be harmed in the process but actually being listened to having your voice heard gives them a huge amount of agency and autonomy. Charlotte Prather thank you it is an extraordinary case that we wanted to bring to your attention. Now you have been getting in touch about men listening to and engaging with what women have to say on the page, screen or in conversation.

But as Sarah Kate puts it, I think that most of the men listening will not be the ones that don't read the stuff by women. And she's brought in Marion Keens to this. I think I'm right in saying read stuff by men. Certain people, certain women won't. I love you, Marion, by the way. Of course, that is part of this. You know, some women, as it were, do write exclusively for women or speak to them. Is that an issue in this? We will explore. Many examples may be anecdotal, just a strong sense without any evidence. But there is and there are real figures when it comes to books, because new figures show that men are four times as likely to pick up books written by other men than women, whereas women are just as likely to read books by men. So what's going on?

Marianne Sieghart, or as I said, M.A. Sieghart, as she referred to on the cover of her book, The Authority Gap, Why Women Are Still Taken Less Seriously Than Men and What We Can Do About It, has been looking into this and commissioned research for her book on who men and women are reading. And Andrew Billen, a columnist and interviewer with The Times, I'm told is very partial to books by women, is also joining us and I'll talk to him in just a moment. But Marianne, can I call you that or are you MA on the radio? No, you can call me Marianne, that's fine. Just to check. Tell us about this research you commissioned. What does it show?

What it shows is that of the top 10 female bestselling authors, and that includes Jane Austen, as well as people like Danielle Steele, only 19 Charles Dickens and J.R. Tolkien, as well as thriller writers, they're read 55% by men and 45% by women. So in other words, women are perfectly happy to read books by men. Men are quite a lot less happy to read books by women. Do you know why? Have you explored it? I think that there are several things going on here. One is, I think, that men feel that books by women don't have anything to say to them. Sorry, not all men, some men, those men who aren't reading books by women. Men like Andrew, of course, understand that books by women have a lot to say to them. But the interesting thing is, if you actually look at the Goodreads review scores by men of books by women, they actually score books by women higher than books by men, very slightly higher, an average of 3.9 out of 5 compared to 3.8.

So what that shows is when they do read books by women, they actually enjoy them. So it's a sort of blinkered mentality that, oh, this woman has nothing to say to me. And also, I think an assumption that what women write about is somehow domestic. It's trivial. It's small scale. Whereas men write about sort of grander, wider, more important things. But often the same type of novel by a woman will be described in that way. Whereas a man. So, for instance, Kamala Shamsi, I quoted in my book. Now, she's a fantastic author. And her book, Home Fire, won the Women's Prize for Fiction.

And it's about Islamic fundamentalism. Three Anglo-Pakistani siblings get caught up. It is a tale of love as well, but it's about really much bigger issues. And she said that a lot of critics really focused on the sort of love and family side of things, whereas she believes that if it had been a book by a man, they would have focused much more on the wider political aspects of it. Andrew, let's bring you into this. Good morning. Morning. Why are you drawn to books by women? Why are you bucking this trend that we're hearing from Marianne?

Well, partly because I like the domestic realm there. I think women right now describe, so many women writers describe brilliantly and amusingly. I don't think it is trivial. We live in homes. We live in families. We try and get on with our wives and our daughters and our brothers and our sons. What could be more interesting than an examination of that in an intelligent, detailed, observant and very often witty way? And I just think women seem to be doing that much better.

There's been a great documentary on Hemingway recently, really putting the case, it's on BBC4 documentary on Hemingway recently, really putting the case on BBC4 that Hemingway dealt with issues of the heart primarily. And that's absolutely true. But then you have to get through 10 pages of him wittering on about catching trout. And I just have no interest in it. I'm laughing because it's just we've had a few other things about wittering ons about trout and sailboats. Fish and nautical elements seem to be a theme. You're shaking your head. Can't stop themselves, can they?

Well, you know, I mean, I'm very aware we're dealing in generalisations, but the data is there around men not wanting to necessarily even try, despite the enjoyment that can be found. Do you see that with some of the men that you know, that you talk to? And what do you think some of the reasons for it are? Well, I was astounded by Marianne's research, but then I started thinking about the men I actually know. And I remember there was a friend of my grandmother's,

a jovial guy called Phil, who'd fought in the trenches in the First World War, he wouldn't even read Agatha Christie. I'm looking out of the window at a neighbour's house. The male of the couple think women write in an inexact way. Another man prefers not to read women novelists because they are domestic and trivial. But he also says too many adjectives. Right. Some of those reasons. A bit flowery. A bit flowery.

It's funny. Let me bring Marianne back into this. Because we've heard another one here saying, I'm a 35-year-old man who listens to Women's Hour religiously. Mostly because it's the only show I can hear nuanced arguments. And it feels it's not my place to have a view, but he's got in touch. Thank you for this. I recognise this problem of men not reading women's books. I do think publishers, though, have a part to blame, labelling women's books as chick lit or movies as chick flicks and marketing them as such, which clearly doesn't target towards the male demographic. I don't

even know what this term means. Some of the most best rounded books I've read delving into the depths of human physiology and psychology and society have been termed this. Marianne, you'll be familiar with the way that books get sold. That's absolutely true. And in fact, I talked to Serena Mackesy, whose first few novels were sort of branded and marketed against her will, but she had no say in it by her publisher as chick lit. And she got so frustrated because she was actually writing about quite big issues. So she simply changed her name to with the first name of Alex,

so that it was androgynous and relaunched herself as a thriller writer. And her very first thriller ended up winning the Edgar Award for Best Paperback Debut. And Stephen King named it as one of his 10 best books of the year. And she's never looked back. But when male readers discover that she's actually a woman, some of them at least get really quite cross about it. There've been Amazon reviews saying, if I'd known this was by a woman, I would never have read it. It is extraordinary in some ways. And yet we need to just confront the reality of it, because at the same time, there will be and there are women writing much more with a female reader in mind. And there are things directly from woman to woman. Are you not? Are

you including that in this or excluding it? No, I am including it. And I do accept that on, you know, you would expect on average, for women novelists to have slightly more female readers than male readers and vice versa. But I'm perfectly happy to read a thriller written by a man with a silhouette of a man holding a gun on the cover, you know, which is clearly aimed at men, but it's still a very good thriller. So why do men somehow find it embarrassing to read a book obviously marketed at women? It must be because there is some sort of misogyny there that makes them believe that women are inferior and it's somehow effeminate for them to be seen reading it. I mean, I absolutely battled to have a cover for my book that I thought men wouldn't feel embarrassed to be seen reading on the tube. Now that in itself, it just demonstrates

the argument in the book, doesn't it? That men somehow feel that women's work is inferior, and therefore they don't want to be seen reading something that looks as if it's somehow too feminine for them, whereas we don't feel that about men's books. Why do you think there is that lack of generosity, Andrew, by some men, especially as the data shows, we're talking in this instance, but I want to broaden out in just a moment. And I know Marianne's got some views on that, as I'm sure you will do too. But there is this lack of generosity from some men. Generosity, lack of inquiring instinct. I think, you know, I think it comes down to something much

wider. I think a lot of men and a lot of women think men and women think differently. I've never thought that. They may have different interests, but their intellects are as good as each other's. I don't think one sex is more inside than the other. I don't think George Eliot has a greater hold on the human psyche than Thomas Hardy, and nor all I think the other way around and I was I rather dislike I wrote a piece about this in the times I rather dislike the headline

which said what did it's something like what I learned about women from books I learned nothing about women from the books I read by women I learned something about the authors and and the way they thought there's a horrible genderisation in this society still that I think is depressing women's book sales and decreasing the understanding person to person in this country. But Marianne, as you have found, it's not just about books and I am keen to broaden it out. Our listeners have been getting in touch this morning

because it's actually about women being listened to generally isn't it it's about women's voices and for instance this study around you know when women and men have been speaking equally and we've got an interview coming up with bobby brown a hugely successful entrepreneur and makeup artist and she she reflects on this in our conversation which i recorded yesterday that will play out in a moment um but you know this idea when women and men speak equally, the perception is women have spoken more. And then she, Bobbi Brown, reflects on this, you know, in a boardroom setting and how that she's had to play it. She's had to game it and what she says to men to make them feel heard. And then she can make her point.

This extends in that way, because I know you also looked at social media, didn't you, Marianne? Yes, I did. And men, of course, sorry. Take a pause. Go on, we want to hear your voice on this. Go on. Men are much more likely to follow and retweet other men on Twitter, for instance, than they are to follow or retweet women. So if they're not even following us, not allowing our voices into their newsfeed, then they're not going to hear what we have to say at all. But I do look in the authority gap much more broadly about some men not listening to women properly. And there was one fascinating, very depressing study done, where they brought a

mixed sex group of people together to discuss a child custody case. And they gave the group a lot of information about the family, but they chose one member at random to give a particular piece of information to that the rest of the group didn't have. And when that piece of information was introduced by a man, it was six times more likely to be used in the group's deliberations than when it was offered by a woman. Six times more likely. Now, you know, women often have this experience of sitting at a meeting and making a point and no one takes a blind bit of notice and the waters just part behind them. And then a man later makes exactly the same point and it's treated as a second coming. We all know that. Well, this experiment

proves that this is the case, that a point made by a man is going to be on average six times more influential than a point made by a woman. Yes. And I mean, I suppose we heard in some ways we kind of know this and it's more now how you deal with it. That's what I'm noticing rather than ever getting rid of it, the strategies to game around it. And we've had some messages coming in around this. For instance, Madge says, I've struggled to get men at work to take me seriously and to listen to what I have to say. I deal with this by being forthright and forceful. And then that leads to a perception that I'm difficult. I'm not. I simply want to be heard. Did you come across any strategies, Marianne? Yes, I did. I mean, this is one of the problems is that when women are as confident or assertive

as men, we quite often find them unlikable. We start thinking that they're difficult or abrasive or strident. The best thing actually is to try to solicit allies at a meeting. So if you get interrupted or talked over or if your point is ignored at a meeting, what you really need is someone else around the table to say, hang on a minute. I really wanted to hear what Emma was trying to say there. Or, oh, I'm so glad you agree with Emma's point earlier. That's what you need as a woman, because if you stand up for yourself, quite often the men will find that tricky. Whereas if you can get someone else around the table, a woman or a man to stand up for you, then it's a lot easier. You can also have a quiet word with

the chair of the meeting afterwards and point out what happened and try and make sure that they don't let it happen next time. But you know, there isn't a chair at home, right? There aren't these allies at home. There aren't these people to stand up. I'm just very minded of a message here. We've just said, when I talk to my wife, it's often like the floodgates open. She can talk solidly for an hour, hardly taking a breath. This is fine. That's her way. But my way is needing a lot of downtime where I don't want to listen. We've learned to respect each other's ways and do our best to compromise.

I don't know if this is a male-female thing, but it is our thing. Andrew Billen, what do you make of that? Women, the idea women just need to talk a lot more. There's a brilliant line in Katlin Moran's new book where she says, I often ask my husband, what do you want to say?

What are you thinking about? And he's like, nothing. And she's like, how? How can you be thinking about nothing and not want to say anything at this point? Andrew, what do you want to say at this point? Well, thank you. Well, I would say I've never been in a meeting

where the wrong voices are not heard the most. I don't think that's confined to women. The oppression of the intelligent and the quieter and the more reflective crosses all sex lines. I live in a house with a wife and two daughters. My father was brighter than my father and would dominate any kind of intellectual or political discussion we had at home. So you're kind of asking the wrong person.

I'm not interested in manny things. I think the Olympics are a disgrace and just some kind of sophisticated psychological torture invented by men. Oh, great. We can have a whole other discussion on that at a different point. I mean, I just think men should read some books by women like Katherine Heine and just realise how clever, witty, observant they are.

And they might learn something, not about women, but about themselves. And that would be your recommendation. Were there recommendations that you wanted to share, Marianne, to leave our listeners with something perhaps to try that they haven't thought of? Well, I think if a man thinks that books by women aren't for him, I would suggest reading Hilary Mantel for a start. I mean, fantastically insightful into a man's mind, actually, Tom Cromwell's mind and the court of Henry VIII. Or try Pat Barker, for instance, on the First World War. So this is traditionally male subject matter. You don't have to worry about it being all sappy and romantic. They're both just brilliant writers.

There you go. Something you can go and do. Some homework if you are getting some downtime. Andrew Billen, Marianne Seacott, thank you very much for being so candid. And these messages coming in, you've started a major conversation. Whether either side listens to each other if there are such things, because some saying, please don't generalise all men. And in fact, some fact some sayings you know women have talked far too much in my life and this is from a woman so some women really do need to also just shut up. Thank you for all these messages and I'll come back to them very shortly indeed but as I mentioned I have spoken to Bobby Brown

and the shift to mask wearing and working from home saw many of us ditch our makeup during the pandemic if you were wearing it, of course, before. But it's not exactly, you could argue, the best time to then launch a new beauty business. But that's what 64-year-old Bobbi Brown has done with her new direct-to-consumer beauty brand, Jones Road. 30 years ago, the makeup artist and entrepreneur launched just 10 lipsticks in a department store in the US

that evolved into a global beauty brand. That company was bought by Estee Lauder only a few years later in 1995. Bobbi retained control of the makeup line until she left her business baby and namesake behind five years ago to strike out once again on her own. I caught up with her yesterday. I stayed 22 years as an employee. And most of the years, it was magical. I mean, the opportunities, the growth, the support, everything was great.

And like any female founder, any founder that sells a company, things change. You know, the bigger the brand got, more things, more layers. And I was probably frustrated for a couple of years. And it was my 90-year-old aunt that said to me, I've been listening to you complain for years. It's time. And she was right. I think I really know what women want. And I also feel people changing. I see behaviors changing and I see women changing. And I think most of the change is good. We're going to talk about Jones Road, your business, in just a moment.

But it's important to make this distinction that the thing that somebody might have, you know, in their bathroom where they keep their toiletries in their handbag that says Bobby Brown, your actual name, is not you anymore. How does it feel for you when you walk past a shop or a concession and you see your name? Well, it's funny when I was with the brand and I'd walk by, all I saw was what was wrong and opportunities to fix that weren't being fixed from the lighting to, you know, the testers to whatever. I was always frustrated because I always wanted things better. And, you know, when I first left, I couldn't even come near a counter. Emotionally, it was really, really difficult for me. And now I walk by a counter and I, it doesn't feel or look the way it was when I was there. And I don't have any emotional attachment to it. And I could, it's been enough time that I could just be proud of what I did, you know, especially in the beginning and what differences I've made

to the industry and in women's lives. But it took a lot of work to get to that point. Yeah, I'll bet. It's your name. It's you. It's yeah. Well, it's not just my name. It was my baby, my ideas, my creation. It was my team. You know, I had to leave my team and any, you know, entrepreneur knows your team is everything to you. I mentioned Jones Road there. Why is it called Jones Road? The new beauty and, you know, sort of skincare, can we call it a skincare brand? Yeah, it's a beauty brand. It has both. And, you know, for me, Jones Road reminded me of the UK. It sounds like some beautiful bespoke brand, but the truth of the matter is we couldn't agree

on any name, any name we liked, we couldn't get. And one day I was driving with my husband to the Hamptons and he always has me look at Google maps and ways. Cause God forbid we're anywhere five minutes, you know, after we have to be. And I looked down at Waze and I saw Jones Road and I said, Jones Road Beauty. He said, I love it. I called the girls in the office. They loved it. And guess what? It was available. Not many Jones Road Beauties out there. So that's the name. I mean, I love the fact you also think it sounds quite, quite British because you are an Anglophile, right? You love. Oh my gosh, you have no idea. I mean, my house looks a little bit between the Soho house and the Conant, which I know I never say right. But I am obsessed with everything that you guys

take for granted, from the tea to the rituals. And yes, my house looks like it could be, you know, in the English countryside. A hallmark of your beauty brands, your makeup brands has been around the natural. So making women still look like they look, but perhaps with dewier complexion or whatever, glossier lip. And we are in a different space in many ways for a lot of women now, especially with social media. How concerned are you about it going so far the other way? I'm talking about contouring. I'm talking about the tutorials that flood our social media feeds the whole time. Well, the good news, neither are going away. The contoured, over-made up look, the makeup how-tos on Instagram, on YouTube, they're here to stay. But there's another road. There's a road you could take where you say,

okay, I'm tired of feeling bad because I don't look like that, because I'm not young, because I'm not as pretty, because I'm not this. And the road that I want women to take is, okay, guess what? You could feel better about yourself. You could look better.

And I wanna show people both from the inside out how not easy. It's hard work, but how it's possible to make yourself look fresher and prettier. There will be some listening to this thinking, why do we still need to look prettier? You know, why do we still need to do that? Well, it's for me, it's about what you feel when you look in the mirror. It's not anything else. Like this morning, I had no time for my makeup. And of course, I sat down.

I had a haircut because it was the only time my hairdresser could fit me in. It was 7 a.m. at my house. And I went to go do my makeup. But of course, I had no mirror. I'm like the shoemaker without shoes. So I threw on some balm, put some things on my lips. And luckily, you know, I know it's radio, but I know you're going to, you know, use one of the pictures. Okay. So what? I'm not all made up. You know, I just think it's about

how I feel. So do you think we're actually going to go to a point where men, more men, we now know it's still a much tinier proportion of women than compared to women I should say are going to be wearing makeup to improve how they feel and how they look well I think that you know just like there's two roads in makeup for women in men there are men I see with nail polish these are not men going to you know Wall Street on the train but there there's creative guys, hairdressers and actors and musicians that are starting to wear more makeup and being comfortable. And that's fine, too. Do I think my, you know, very short haired husband is going to wear makeup? No. Do I know that he uses skincare products? Absolutely. That he feels and looks better. He's never going to wear makeup.

You know, cosmetic sales fell during the pandemic. And I wonder what you make about that. I should also say, I know that, you know, people spent actually other money on skincare a bit more, and you'll have the access to that data, I'm sure, in more detail. But do you think that has changed our relationship with makeup during the pandemic? I mean, look, there's people that are now dressing up like they're going to a black tie, you know, while they're having lunch in, you know, in town. But most of us, I would say, or, you know, half of us at least, are really casual. I like nothing better than to do my Zooms and have my meetings and wearing shorts and, you know, putting on a pair of sneakers when I run out of the door. And you know what? I'm not dressing up like I did. And I'm not doing a ton of makeup

like I did. You know, I'm five foot tall and I happen to be in my sixties and I'm not going to put the pointy shoes on that I actually still have in my closet. I'm just not going to do it. I can't be uncomfortable anymore. You're at a different stage, I suppose, in some ways to what we were just starting to talk about, which is a lot of people on social media and the influencers and all of that, not in terms of age, but stage that you've just described, that people don't necessarily can get to a different point and feel like they don't have to be influenced like that. You're now, as you say, selling direct to consumer. You'll be, I presume, engaging all the time with social media or your

team certainly will be. I know you say that there are two roads to keep going with the pun there, but there are concerns about how much pressure in particular is going on to young women about how they look. Could you say a bit more about how you feel about that? Well, you know, going back to my high school years, you know, I felt insecure because I didn't look like my girlfriends that were tall, skinny, blonde. You know, I was short, dark hair, you know, some freckles across my nose, some big eyebrows. And until I went to the movie Love Story and saw Ali McGraw, who was so beautiful and looked kind of like me that I could see, okay, I could be different and be attractive. So I started to find people that looked like me. And so what does an

insecure girl do? She goes into the fashion industry and works with people with one name, Linda, Cindy, Christy. And that was my day-to-day existence. And I realized then I can't feel bad about who I am because of what they look like. And so I kind of started the Bobby Brown thing, telling people to feel good about exactly who you are, make yourself better, but appreciate your individuality. And I think now, and there was no social media, but now you look and you see everyone from a Kardashian to even Adele, like all these beautiful, made up with full glam teams. Of course, you could not feel good, but a lot of these people, you know, like Adele, you see everything. So you do understand what she feels and thinks. And I think for all of us, we all have to be

realistic and know what we're looking at. End of story. I wanted to ask your view, Bobby Brown, of a study that's just come out, which says that when women and men, and you will have seen these sorts of things before, but it doesn't seem to be getting better, speak for the same amount of time, the perception is still that women have spoken more. So the idea that we have penalties against us when we do raise our voice or speak, and we're still told that perhaps we're not likable when we do so. Some of those things you'll be very aware of. Some call it the dominance penalty. But I thought this particular study would be interesting to get your view on. I haven't seen the study, but none of it surprises me.

I've been at corporate meetings with, you know, men basically on one side of the table and women on the other, you know, the women that run the brand on one side and the men on the other side. And I just remember sitting there watching the men sit back in their chair and speak slowly, but loudly and less words. And I saw so many of my women, friends and partners that were sitting on the edge of their seat, trying to break in saying all these things. And it's not what they said, it's how. And I remember like after the meeting, like telling everybody, okay, just breathe, sit back. We're more emotional. And by the way, we are the better ones

because guess what? We know how to do 15 things at once. We've, you know, had children and we've worked while we're doing all these different things and men do one thing at a time. And yes, they were raised to be the power. But guess what? If you know what your real power is, and I'm saying this to all the young girls or all the women that are negotiating, talking to guys, sit back, breathe, listen to what they're saying. By the way, always start your conversation. I hear what you're saying because that's what men want to hear. And then tell them what you think. Some wise words for people to pay heed to and also to listen to clearly. But do you think we still have to play those games? Can you see it getting any better?

I don't think it's a game. Be smarter than them. Be smarter than anyone. That's my advice. And sometimes it requires pushing back and just seeing what you're seeing and then figuring out what to do and not being so emotional. I love the story of you hiring the woman in the Apple store who was very good at technology. I thought that was just one of the best non-HR, HR stories I've ever heard in terms of human resources. So just explain that one to us. Sure. When I left the company, I had no one with me.

So that was like a very interesting time where I'm used to having, you know, one and two assistants and a driver and so much support. I ended up going into the Apple store to basically change my phone number from the corporate number into a new phone. And I was there for a couple hours. It was very challenging. And a young girl who was helping me was cool as a cucumber. And all the guys at Apple kept running over to her and saying,

Michelle, what do you think? Michelle. And I sat there for a couple hours with this woman who was not giving up until she did what she needed. And I introduced myself to her. I said, do you know who I am? And she kind of heard of the company, but never heard of me. And I gave her my number and I said, I'm going to need an assistant. If you ever want to, you know, think about a new career, I'm going to need someone. I've got different projects.

And I ended up hiring her as my assistant. And she was technologically like brilliant. And unfortunately, anyone that's around me from my sons to my assistants now, I'm like, can you just I'm stuck on this. How do I repost this? How do I do this? I love it. One thing you're not stuck on. And I think it's an important question. A couple actually, if I may. How long can you keep your makeup for? Very basic question for you. Well, I mean, mascara, the experts say three months. I say six months. When it starts to smell, get rid of it. When it's dried out, get rid of it. When makeup's broken, get rid of it.

Our clean brand has a two-year shelf life. But of course, if you're someone that lives in a hot climate and you leave it in the car, it's going to spoil. Okay. I have a lot of old makeup that I'm now thinking I just need to take plunge. And by the way, doesn't, I don't know about you, but being a very busy person, when I do a clean out project it feels so good it makes me feel my life is in control so tackle one project and you know what just go dump your makeup and pick what you like and get rid of what you don't the other thing I was going to ask and you're right it does feel very therapeutic is around the idea of a uniform with your makeup so a lot of people have had, and I encounter myself, I have worn the same two lipstick colors and lipsticks for, I don't know, 15 years, to the point where I find it very funny if I've appeared on television. I often get, where are your glasses from? Where's your lipstick

from? And I thought the thing in the interview was very interesting as well. You know, these three things come in together from women. So is it wrong to have a uniform? Absolutely not. I wear blues. I wear navies. I don't wear color as much. I don't wear florals and prints. And you know what? So what? I don't like them on me. And when it comes to makeup, I wear neutral colors. I've always worn neutral colors. I wear pink on my cheek. I don't wear it on my lips. Whatever color lipstick you're wearing looks good on you. And by the way, I am the first person when I meet some woman who's got something I like, what jeans are those? Who makes that shirt? You know, you get that out of the way.

Visually, that's what happens before you even know who you're talking to. You see people, you know, who makes that chain, who makes, you know, whatever, you see things. So I think it's OK. She thinks it's OK. That was Bobbi Brown. A message just coming off the back of that question from Elia, who says, that's the age old question about when to throw away makeup. What about women's rights and feminism in a huge time of upheaval? I also think those are very important questions, hence why we ask them a lot of the time. And a message here, but thank you for your contribution, says, Stephanie says, how about we could start teaching certain men to listen rather than fixing on teaching women how to game things? Indeed. But if things aren't changing, I suppose you've got

to survive in the meantime. So some practical tips from Bobby Brown there. Keep your messages coming in and I will come to them, not least on what I think is a very important area but not talked about enough, money. How are you with it? Frugal and savvy or haphazard and slightly terrified? Do you have money secrets that make you feel just a bit ill and then you push them out of your mind again?

Recent research from the Money and Pension Service found that nearly half of us are keeping financial secrets from our partner, from hidden credit cards to undisclosed saving accounts, but we're also very reluctant to talk about money at all. For instance, nearly a third of people would rather share details about their dating history than talk about their finances. But why? In a new short summer series every Wednesday, we're going to be talking about money on the programme,

and I would really appreciate hearing from you. Not least because it's so taboo. 50% of more women than men are heading towards retirement without any pension savings at all, but also the fact that women are likely to have secret savings so they have an escape route, which becomes more important when they have children. So let's start there.

Secrets. If you want to get in touch, you can be anonymous. To guide us to these conversations this August, Catherine Morgan, the host of In Her Financial Shoes podcast, which gives advice on savings and investments, and Julie Flynn, a financial advisor who specialises in working with women who have lost their partner. A warm welcome to you both.

Catherine, what are the most common secrets, do you think, that women in particular perhaps keep? Yeah, it's a really interesting one, isn't it? Historically, as women, we tend to have an average of 13 money secrets. And for women that we work with in our communities, the most typical ones tend to be around debt. You know, we hold a lot of shame and guilt around debt. We're not really taught about the importance of good debt versus bad debt. So debt is definitely a huge money share, you know, people not, you know, hiding their credit cards, they don't want to necessarily even bring any awareness or consciousness to what they're spending. And most of this comes from just inherited beliefs around money. You know,

if your parents didn't talk about money, then we end up inheriting the same beliefs. And therefore, everything we just tend to keep secret. I remember when I was a little girl, my dad used to have a pound pot in his wardrobe, but he would keep it secret, you know, the wardrobe doors would close. And I did the same, I just inherited the same beliefs and patterns. And I, I put all of my change in a change pot, but it had to be kept secret. So a lot of the secrets we carry are around just how we generally handle money in everyday life, but particularly around debts. Debt is a huge area, Julie, to bring you into this. And a lot of people just want to put their heads in the sand. Can you relate to that? Yeah, I think like Catherine was saying as well, and it's how is the debt accumulated?

And it's how did we end up in that situation? And I would say that a lot of the secrets are around our spending. A bit like Catherine, I can even remember my mum taking me out shopping. Maybe when I was about eight years old and she bought me some clothes and we're coming home with the carrier bags. And she's like, don't tell your dad. And she's hiding the carrier bags. And I think when you've got behaviour patterns like that it's really easy to understand then when we're spending and we're overspending and it accumulates into debt then if we're hiding the spending then it stands to reason we're going to hide the debt as well aren't we but also savings potentially this

idea that women Julie have have separate money that they don't want to release or talk about and that they'll need? I think we would all agree that there's certain situations where that would make sense. So for someone that's in a relationship that's not healthy, I think we would probably all encourage those women to have some financial independence. But I think my take on it, and I think Catherine will probably agree with me, is secrets and hiding money, it's never a good place

to start. The more transparent we can be about it, the more we can talk openly about it. And I think that leads to healthier and better outcomes for all of us. And yet, though, in relationships, Catherine, this still remains also a taboo, you know, never mind in wider society. What advice have you got about that? Perhaps there's somebody listening who, you know, might be that they don't earn equal or they don't know how to broach it because they and their partner have very different approaches to money. Yeah, this is a really common one, particularly in relationships, because actually, if you think about money itself, it's the meaning that we attach to money that creates the taboo subject.

So the first place I always start if I was working with couples is to get them individually to think about what is their own unique relationship with money? What patterns have they inherited from parents or caregivers growing up? And that's a really good starting point to have a really fun conversation about, you know, what did you learn about money growing up? Because actually, the arguments that happen in couples and relationships are never really about the money. It's often about the meaning that that individual is attaching to money. So bringing an awareness to their own core beliefs around money is a really good starting point to open out that conversation and to just really bring a bit more honesty and fun to the conversation, you know, because money can be really fun.

It's just that sometimes we feel like, well, I can't talk about money because maybe the meaning that we attach to it is shame or guilt or disappointment or responsibility. Maybe somebody doesn't want to take responsibility around money in the household, which we typically see in relationships, you know, is that one person tends to be more dominant in handling the budgeting, for example, and one person tends to be more dominant in the investing strategy. And it tends to be women that are very, very good at looking after the household purse, and very happy to make decisions there. But we're not very comfortable when it comes to investing.

Well, we are definitely going to come back to you for more details around that and have a bit more time on the investing side of things. Julie, I thought also very important just to end this particular part of our conversation. But we will, as I say, be coming back and people can start thinking about questions they may have for you in our later conversations. If just if you are struggling right now with how to manage money and in particular the shame of debt and getting on top of that, is there any advice you'd you'd give to any of our listeners? Yeah, I think the piece of advice I would give you is you would be surprised at the fact that it's not just you. Right. Everybody will have been in this situation at some point I know I have and I know lots of my financial advisor friends have so oddly enough we were having this conversation last week about what gentle ways to introduce money to the

conversation with your friends and I can't remember how we came up with this but we started talking about um in your job talking about the benefit package that you've got. So like, you know, your pension, if you've got health care, and that's going to gently lead into a conversation about earnings. And then it's just finding these nice, gentle ways into the conversation. Find someone that you trust and you'd be surprised how understanding they're going to be and maybe how relieved they are that we can start having these conversations with each other and and share that and share those experiences well that's what we hope to do a first start for you today with julie flynn their financial advisor and katherine morgan who's the host of it in her financial shoes the

podcast we will come back to them next week and talk more specifically. You let us know, of course, what you also have questions about and get in touch. Just to say, we've also had an amazing email just come in from Shirley Franklin. My aunt, Rosalind Franklin, was described by Crick and Watson as a difficult woman. And look what happened to them, cutting her out of their work on DNA. Weren't they far more difficult than Rosalind?

And are men ever called difficult? Very, very interesting email to just see pop up there in response to how we talk about and how we listen or don't listen to women. Well, there's one woman you definitely want to listen to, and it is the first black woman to be the female lead in Phantom of the Opera. It was first performed 35 years ago in London's West End.

It's the second longest running musical here, the longest running show in Broadway history, and has been performed worldwide and seen more than an estimated 130 million people in 145 cities across 27 countries. After Covid restrictions, Phantom of the Opera has just reopened at Her Majesty's Theatre with Lucy St Louis playing the female lead. And as I say, Lucy, making some history with it too. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you so much for having me. Was this something you always wanted to do?

Did you want this part? Oh, it was a dream of mine. It was the one role in the West End in theatre that I've always wanted to play. And I never thought possible. Training at the age of 16 and in college and then leaving and starting my career in the profession, I never saw that this was an option for me um specifically in casting

I realized very quickly that my hard work in training to perfect my voice um in my acting and my dancing was not the biggest problem that I was going to have to face the biggest problem that I was going to have to face was that biggest problem that I was going to have to face was that people, when I was in the audition rooms, the main thing they would be looking at is the colour of my skin and where I fit within the roles that they are casting. And I learned very early on that that was going to be my biggest hurdle and that I was different and that, you know, I wasn't necessarily going to be cast in roles that I wanted to be in. And this role was a role for me that I loved and adored. I love the score. I love the story. And I never thought possible, but I never, ever wanted to give up on it.

I had many people over my career ask me like yourself what what's your dream role to play and I would always say Christine in the Phantom of the Opera and I was always met most of the time with they will never have a black Christine, they will never have someone of colour or a black woman to play this role and for me hearing that was heartbreaking and it meant that I had a long way to go in to prove that I was worthy enough to be in this position and it was the fact of what I looked like which was stopping me and it wasn't that I could not sing the role or act the role. It was what I looked like, which was stopping me. And that was something which I know as a Black performer, and I know many other women of colour and other Black performers in the industry,

we have been met with that struggle a lot in our career and it has been something that has defined us which we don't want that to be our defining moment no I mean shouldn't be sorry this shouldn't be the celebration of the first black woman to play this role I should be just known as Lucy St Louis playing the role of Christine and that should be celebrated enough but because it's not happened in 35 years it is such a monumental moment yeah and I think a lot of people couldn't agree almost more and it's very very important to have heard how you kind of got there in the way that you described that that your expectations constantly being tempered but that's why I also read out you know how much this play has been seen, you know, and how long it's been going.

And almost it shouldn't be a moment, but why it is a moment. And that in mind and the fact that we haven't had theatre because of Covid restrictions. What was it like to open? Oh, it was the most magical moment of my career to date you know we have been starved of the arts for so long and our audiences needed us just as much as we needed them and to be opening this reopening this incredible monumental show that has been running and this will be its 35th year was so special because I feel like this show is part of the history of theatre. If this show can come back and be here and present for our audiences, then hopefully we are getting our industry back up and running again.

But to be in the position that I'm in um and to feel so seen and accepted on my on my final bow on my first opening on Tuesday um was an overwhelming moment such a special moment that I I wish my younger self had seen well I so many will have done. I mean, that's the thing. And it's so lovely to have you on the programme. Thank you. We have some music from you and Cillian Donnelly.

Lucy St Louis, thank you so much for talking to us and taking us behind the scenes. Cillian, of course, plays the Phantom. You're in the lead female role playing Christine. Here we are singing the Phantom of the Opera. In all your fantasies You always knew That man and mystery Were both in you

And in this labyrinth where night is blind The Phantom of the Opera is there inside Oh my goodness, I have chills. That was incredible to hear. What a talent and wonderful that she's in that role. Thank you so much to Lucy St. Louis that's singing in the lead role of Phantom, which is on stage right now.

And Carol, just to finish with you, in response to the man whose wife could talk for an hour, my husband wakes in the morning, it's like the dawn chorus kicking off and he doesn't stop until he goes to sleep. When he pauses for breath rather than jumping in, I just enjoy the silence. Thank you for your company today.

We'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, I'm Pandora Sykes. And just before you go, I wanted to tell you about a new podcast, Pieces of Britney.

My attempt to piece together the life of Britney Spears and the forces that have forged it. A huge fan. Yeah, absolutely. A fan of not just the performer, but the person. I think that a lot of people were rooting for Britney to fail. And there's this sort of assumption of, you know, this is what you wanted. This is what you're going to get. In this eight part series for BBC Radio 4, I've spoken to cultural thinkers, lawyers, psychologists and key players in the entertainment industry to get their perspective on Britney's remarkable story and enduring legacy. I used her as an example of somebody who really got what was required

to do that kind of work. We're also using drama to help us look behind the headlines and the conflicting accounts to imagine the woman underneath. Join me for Pieces of Britney. Subscribe now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.