Woman's Hour - Body image. Caring for an abuser. Bafta lookahead. Mrs Sri Lanka Beauty pageant controversy

Episode Date: April 9, 2021

A parliamentary report into body image has just been published. The Women's and Equalities Committee has been looking into why so many people feel dissatisfied about the way they look. They did a survey which said that 61% is adults and 66% of children feel bad about how they look most of the time. They wanted to find out whether certain groups are most at risk at poor body image and looked at the impact of social media, advertising, diet culture as well as racism and misogyny. We hear from Caroline Nokes MP chair of the committee. Tatyana Findlater who's 21 and has visible burn scars who gave evidence to the Committee and Dawn Estefan a psychotherapist who works with black women's groups to discuss various issues including body image.A fight broke out on the stage of the latest Mrs Sri Lanka Beauty pageant last weekend because the winner was accused of being a divorcee. The competition is open only to women who are married and NOT divorced. Why has this beauty pageant received so much media attention and scrutiny? Kanchana N Ruwanpura is Professor of Human Geography at the University of Gothenburg, in Sweden and a Fellow at the Centre for South Asian Studies at the University of Edinburgh.The 2011 Census found that 6.5 million people in the UK are carers and provide unpaid care by looking after an ill, older or disabled family member, friend or partner. It found that women are more likely to be carers than men, with 58% of carers being female and 42% male. But what if your relationship with the person you're caring for involves a history of abuse? And a look ahead to this year's BAFTA's with Edith Bowman. Presenter Anita Rani Producer Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. We made it to another Friday. Welcome to Woman's Hour. How do you feel about the way you look? The Women's and Equality Commission have been looking into body image and found that 61% of adults and 66% of children felt bad about how they looked most of the time. Is this you? How do you feel when you look in the mirror? And what's fueling all this insecurity? Maybe you're worried about your

child and the lengths they're going to to look beautiful, whatever that may mean. And who is setting this standard of beauty that we're all trying to achieve? The report suggested scrapping BMI, the body mass index, as a measure of health, as it contributes to eating disorders and also suggests we have a more diverse representation in advertising. I'd like to know what you think about this.

Jo's already tweeted in to say, for clothes shops to provide a wider variety of shapes so the clothes fit properly, no matter what size or shape. She says, I'm less likely to comfort eat when I'm in clothes that feel comfortable and are flattering. Do you relate to this? I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Do you think it's worse now because we're constantly bombarded with images? Whatever you think, text me on 84844. Texts are charged at your standard message rate. You can also email by going to our website or contact us via social media. It's at BBC Women's Hour. Talking of the importance of representation, the BAFTAs are happening this weekend and it may well be the most exciting line-up of nominees ever.

They've made some changes to the voting system and are championing diversity and new talent. Four women are up for Best Director and 16 of the 24 acting nominees are from ethnic minorities. Have you managed to see anything yet? There are some cracking British films up for BAFTAs, as well as a lot of great talent generally, and I'll be getting into a filmy chat with the brilliant Edith Bowman in a bit. Then, when beauty pageants go wrong. In Sri Lanka, women are more educated than men,

but beauty pageants are very important. You may have seen footage of the crowning, or rather, de-crowning of Mrs Sri Lanka in Colombo this week. You might have thought, what the heck is going on there? Or at least I did, so I'll be finding out. But first, the 2011 census found that 6.5 million people in the UK are carers and provide unpaid care by looking after an ill, older or disabled family member, friend or partner. It found that women are more than likely to be carers than men, with 58% of carers being female and 42% male.

But what if your relationship with the person you're caring for involves a history of abuse? Last week, we received a very powerful email from a listener who's caring for her father, who she experienced abuse from growing up. Have a listen. I wish someone would explore the problems surrounding having to now care for parents who are actually never present throughout your life, or worse, caring for parents who abuse the children or continue to cause harm now.

I'm currently caring for my father and to put it bluntly, I cannot wait for him to die. I appreciate that this will no doubt cast me as the villain or put me in the ungrateful child role, but I know I'm not alone. And yet when I went recently to a carers workshop, the people running it had no advice, no plan B for those of us cast into this role by accident. They had no notes on what to do if this dynamic is causing mental health issues to their adult child and the repercussions of being thrown into dealing with someone who ruined lives and continues to do so. It was treated like some sort of taboo that I should even ask about what help and advice there was and yet once I'd asked several other people then wanted to know what to do as they

also felt unsafe or unqualified to be placed in the role of carer and risk revisiting memories and unhappiness that often they might have been battling with for many years to forget. Adult care services point blank refuse to acknowledge the plight of people left in this situation. And again, one is left with the guilt. Yep, very powerful email. Is this something you can relate to? Text us on 84844. To discuss this further, I'm joined by Emily Holshousen, who's worked for Carers UK for 25 years as their Director of Policy and Public Affairs. And Alison Corner is a psychologist and co-runs the My Horrid Parent website,

which gives advice on managing difficult family relationships. Morning to you both. Emily, let me come to you first. Legally, what is the situation here? Does the law oblige you to care for your parents? No, it doesn't. And it's really important that we recognise that. And I think it's something that Alison will come on to. And certainly your listener was talking about, there's a really

strong cultural expectation that we care for our parents and people within our families who are disabled or have a chronic illness. But there is no legal responsibility for you to care for your parents. And how the law is framed is that you have to be willing and able. So the able means you have the capacity to or the knowledge to and willing. And the willing bit is really hard for people to say no to. Yeah. And what's the alternative if you don't want to do it? Well, this is where people need really strong advocacy support locally because of these cultural taboos that we have in all of our communities in the UK. And it's the same across the world, actually.

So your strong advocacy needs to support you to say no and to say where you are comfortable doing something. And it's the local authorities' responsibility to listen to that and to make sure that your well-being is promoted, that your health and well-being is not being damaged, and their responsibility to make sure that the person you're caring for also is safe and supported. And that's under safeguarding legislation as well as the Care Act. So the law is quite clear, but I don't think these things get talked about enough. I mean, there's lots of things that jump out from that email, but one thing in particular was the lack of support she felt. So you say that you should be able to go to your local community and find the support, but if it's not there, what do you do?

I think that is a very difficult situation. I mean, Carers UK, we provide advice on people's rights and entitlements, so we'd be very clear about what people need to do. And there are local advocacy routes as well. And it's disappointing to hear that your listener wasn't supported because there are clear routes for her to do so. I would say it's been compounded perhaps by the fact that social care and local authorities is underfunded.

Services are really stretched. People are thrown into situations they quite frankly shouldn't be particularly where there's abuse in in the in the past um and and and covid has made that worse you know even fewer services and people have been thrown together in situations they've not expected so we don't know the extent to how many people are facing this because it's very rarely uncovered. And again, perhaps Alison might like to talk. Well, exactly. Alison, let me bring you in because it is such a huge taboo, which is why the person who emailed in wanted to remain anonymous for various reasons.

She said she cannot wait for her father to die. Extremely strong feelings. What's keeping people in these relationships? Why do they feel they have to have to do it, Alison? Well, that's a really very good question. And what an incredibly powerful email that your listener sent in. And I think one of the first things to say is that she is definitely not the villain in this piece. When parents choose to bring children into this world, they have a duty of care and responsibility to bring them up with love and affection. And if they break that by being abusive, unkind, neglectful, it essentially, I think the contract is void. I think the adult child has no particular responsibility. And it's very interesting from the website that we set up, because we were well aware of this taboo subject.

A lot of people have come back to us and explained about how they've managed their tricky relationship with their parent. Some people decide it's so painful, it's so toxic and unpleasant that they have to step away from their parents and have next to nothing to do with them. Other people have a kind of distance relationship, perhaps through email or telephone contact. But many people also decide that they have a responsibility to help their parent, such as your listener. And I think it's a testament to her kindness that she's willing to go through this and put herself through that exposure back to those memories and the possibility of ongoing abuse. And it is a choice that she's chosen to make. And one of the things I would say to support that is that you don't want to reduce yourself to being at the level of your parents.

You want to be the best person you can. You want to go forward and live your life your way. And she's chosen to do this. She's chosen to go back with kindness and generosity and face this, which is an incredibly tough task. And people can make their decisions without judgment. But gosh, she's done really well here. But I do think there are many things she can do to help. Yes, this is what I wanted you to talk to me about, because I know you talk to lots of people and lots of people contact you through your website.

I mean, she talks about the guilt. She's doing it, but, you know, she's doing it under duress in many ways, isn't she? So what coping strategies are there if people listening can relate to this and don't want to have to be doing it, but through guilt feel they have to? How can you protect yourself in this? I think there are a number of things you can do. The obvious ones are about, well, it's the analogy of put your own mask on as a parent before you put your child's mask on on

a plane. And I think you need to be very careful about not taking on more than you believe you can manage, getting yourself good sleep, good rest, good support, etc. I think psychologically, some of the things you can consider doing are about setting realistic expectations about what can be done. That's going to be the frequency of your visit, the length of your visits and go in with very low expectations. If you know that that parent is going to be unkind or abusive. I think it's perfectly reasonable to say very firmly, if you're going to be rude to me or swear at me or hit me I'm going to step out of the room I think it's quite feasible to be able to do that I think you can be one of the things that might be helpful is to rather than see this person as

an abusive parent who triggers your and stirs up unpleasant. Maybe see them as an ailing neighbour. So you kind of make it a little bit more objective. You step away, you go in, you do the minimum with kindness, but trying not to get involved back into some of those fights and so on. And I think once you've come away from that caring session, in order to try and manage some of the distress that may have arisen in that, try and debrief. Talk to a friend, talk to a neighbour, talk to a partner, talk to a professional if you need to. And I think it can be incredibly helpful to write some of your

experiences down, to maybe keep a journal or a diary, and that's going to give you an opportunity maybe to process some of those unpleasant memories that might have come up again, in your caring experience. And I think it's important to try and do that as much as you can before the person dies. Because I think it will mean that finally, when that elderly person has died, you've just had a sense more of a sense of relief, and less of a sense of guilt. Emily I'd like to bring you back in here because you know we are talking about people who are having to look after someone who abused them it's not just a difficult relationship with your parents is it this is it's much more serious than that I mean what what can people do these coping

mechanisms that Alison has suggested about keeping a diary protecting yourself what do you think i think i think allison's advice is is is very good and everybody has has their own situation and has to make those decisions it's not it's not straightforward i mean allison clearly he's got so much experience of supporting people um but when it comes too much that's when you need to resort to the legal routes to really say i need to step away and you need to do that in a very measured way I mean what Alison's talking is and making sure that things are measured and well considered and so that you just don't walk out but you you do this in a way that you alert the authorities for example to the fact that you need support you talk about the Care Act you talk about your rights and you're supported to do so.

And what happens? What happens if you do go and reach out? What are the next steps? I mean, of course, it's so complicated, isn't it? Because they're your parents. They may have abused you. You feel the pressure. You feel the guilt.

There's a huge wave of expectation maybe from your family, from the community. Maybe you've never even discussed the abuse with anybody. So it's a taboo. it's a hidden secret anyway people for a variety of reasons might feel very trapped in this situation how can we encourage them to seek help well i think um i mean going to organizations like allison who are very well versed in this where you will get a very understanding here is a very good start and then making sure you check out your rights and entitlements through our organisation or other places and then locally sometimes there are advocacy routes who will take you through this and support you in the kinds of

areas that you might find very difficult to talk about and very very private matters within families but local authorities have got very clear legal duties and it's making sure you you you persist it takes energy and determination and as we've talked about this morning can be an incredibly emotional journey but i think i think one of the other things that could be helpful to consider is the possibility of carers with this taboo subject if you haven't had a horrid parent it can be really really hard to understand the extent and depth of some of the abuse but if other carers are experiencing similar as I'm certain they are I don't know whether there's a possibility of them setting up a kind of community-based informal support group to help

each other with this and talk through some of it because there they'll be able to discuss some of this without the shame. Yes, get rid of the shame. Alison and Emily, thank you very much for speaking to us this morning. If this is something you can relate to and you'd like to tell us about your experience, then please get in touch with us. You can email us via our website. Now, a fight broke out on stage of the latest Mrs Sri Lanka beauty pageant last weekend because the winner was accused of being a divorcee. Not very gracious, I know. The competition is open only to women who are married and not divorced. Sri Lanka is located in Southern Asia and produced the first female prime minister in 1960 and women's voting rights just three years after women in the UK. So why has this beauty pageant received so much media attention and scrutiny? Kanchana Rawanpura is Professor of Human Geography

at the University of Gothenburg in Sweden and a fellow at the Centre for South Asian Studies at the University of Edinburgh and joins us now on Woman's Hour. Very good morning to you, Kanchana. Tell us a bit about what actually happened on the night because there have been so many videos that have been posted online. I've watched quite a few of them. It's quite shocking to watch. So for those people listening who've not seen anything, explain what went on. So thanks for having me, Anita. To mention, I wasn't there at the event. I only picked up what I did from video clips that was in one of Sri Lanka's broadsheet newspapers. From what I've gathered, Mrs. Pushpika Disabha was declared the winner.

She made an acceptance speech. And once the judges, it seems, left, and in fact, after she was crowned, the reigning Mrs. World and Mrs. Sri Lanka last year 2020 she comes on stage and makes this kind of declaration allegation saying that this crown can only be held by a married woman and as Pushpika De Silva is a divorcee she was was kind of going to decrown her, so to speak. And I get the feeling looking at the clips, Pushpika didn't even know what was going on the first runner-up. Then the other clips I've seen, there seems to have been... So the Pushpika, Mrs Pushpika De Silva goes to the backstage. I've seen clips of there being a verbal exchange. It's done in Sinhala. It's not very clear.

Then there's another clip where she's complaining to the police. She has a group of police that she seems to have summoned to the front of the hall, and she's explaining what happened. It was after that the newspapers announced that she had a head injury. I'm a little bit dubious of that because I didn't see any indication of it at the beginning, but I think it's partly also the any indication of it at the beginning but I think it's partly also the media kind of sensationalizing the story I mean much more than it should be yes I mean they're sensationalizing it because I guess you know it's beautiful it's it's so ungracious

and undignified it's just the opposite of what you expect to happen at a beauty pageant sure um so just how popular are beauty pageants in Sri Lanka? Let's get some context of why it's become such big news. Well, beauty pageants, I guess, I mean, if I was to contrast it to what I've experienced in the UK, they get much more prominence in Sri Lanka. Both the Miss Sri Lankas and the Miss Sri Lanka. Having said that, I would also contextualise saying there's a very much of a Colombo-based preoccupation amongst a particular group of people. And I guess it also gets prominence because for some of these women, at least it's seen as a way of, you know, kind of mobility towards the acceptance of a particular class status, etc. So it's the equivalent of a Eurovision contest in the UK. Sure, it's huge.

And is there any particular stigma towards being a divorcee in Sri Lanka? So I was looking this thing, details up, and I was, so the Daily News, which is Sri Lanka's oldest newspaper, reports in 2014 that in the western province and in Colombo, almost 50% of marriages ends up either in divorce or a separation. But nationally, the figures are low. It's 1.7, right, whether divorce or separation. So in Colombo, there is certainly in Colombo, I guess, because it's a big city, there's

a lot of stress for both working women and men, there are rapid changes going on. And that creates much more tension than it used to. But as you mentioned, Sri Lanka is also a place where women are highly educated, and they've been this for decades, right? So we have something like 91.2% literacy rates for women. Longevity is similar to that in the UK. And the other bit is in university at the moment, there are more women than men. More women also graduate than men with the exception of the hard science subjects.

So there are many more. I mean, there's always been educated women. I think increasingly they're willing to put up with less. science subjects so there are many more i mean there's always been educated women i think increasingly they're willing to put up with less so so you have this highly educated uh sort of graduate class of women like as you said more than more than men but also this huge popularity of beauty pageants so there's a lot must be a huge expectation on sri lankan women to be everything? I guess, but I think this would be similar to the kind of complex identities we negotiate in most parts of the world, right? You know, you, I mean, you look at the celebrity culture in the UK or the USA. And in fact, some of what

the Women's Hour today began with, this pressure to be attractive beautiful what have you all of that is definitely there and but i think that's part of the kind of global consumer culture um but it's also therefore then used as a way in which you kind of find ways of using that and not just your education to get what you know to get places, I suppose. Yes. Yeah, that would be one way of putting it. But, I mean, we've got a context related beauty pageant. This is just one episode that the media kind of has gone all over.

There are far more important struggles that women are involved in in Sri Lanka at the moment, which is getting far less attention just with Sri Lankan media. Such as? So for instance, right now, in the north central province of the country, so this is rural women, they're involved in struggling against microfinance debt

and calling for abolishing it. There've been nonviolent protests, for the past two weeks, and they're adamant on staying that way until at least end of april and for sri lanka next week is its singhala and tamil new year so it's important point time and and they're yet saying we will forego that to make this protest publicly right so they are making themselves heard uh They're making, you know, so, yeah, I think you're kind of located in position the story in the context. Absolutely. But the fact that women come out to make themselves heard, it's that's not new in Sri Lanka.

Ganchana, thank you very much for speaking to us this morning. Now, a parliamentary report into body image has just been published. The Women's and Equality Committee has been looking into why so many people feel dissatisfied about the way they look. They did a survey which found that 61% of adults and 66% of children felt bad about how they looked most of the time. They wanted to find out

whether certain groups are more at risk. And they also looked at the impact of social media advertising diet, culture, as well as racism and misogyny caroline noakes mp is chair of the women's inequalities committee tatiana finland is 21 and gave evidence to the inquiry she has visible burn scars and dawn estafan is a psychotherapist and counselor and works with black women's groups in london discussing various issues including body image. Welcome to Women's Hour to all of you. Caroline if I may come to you first, why investigate this now, why body image and who did you speak to to get the information? Well we spoke to a wide range of experts, charities, people working with young people to find out what the extent of the

problem was. You've highlighted the statistics, huge numbers of people feeling incredibly unhappy about the way they look. And it looks as if it's been exacerbated by the pandemic, people feeling worse, having spent the last year of their lives unable to maintain normal social contacts and doing everything on Zoom. I mean, the headline that's making the news this morning is that you're critical of a number of things, including body mass index, as a system and say that public health England should stop using it,

and the government's obesity strategy, which you call at best ineffective and at worst perpetuating unhealthy behaviours, as well as child measurement programmes. Could you explain a bit more? Yeah, certainly. So BMI, we know it has been used for years, but was actually established as a measurement across populations. So to give

you an average and based on a European man's body physique. So it gives a really bad indicator of good health in women and particularly in black communities. And what we've seen is huge numbers of black children labelled as obese or overweight because BMI simply doesn't work for their body type. And that's a stigma that people can carry with them for the rest of their lives. So we want to see a much more tailored approach to measuring what is actually individual good health as opposed to an average and asking the government to do more work on the obesity strategy move away from calorie labeling which we know can be incredibly triggering and simply doesn't work some of the leading fast food brands have used calorie labeling on their menus for years and it's made no discernible difference so we're just saying look

please do better with your obesity strategy. Use evidence. And we heard from the University of Cambridge that 30 years of government's programmes on obesity have actually had very little impact at all. And yet here we have one that's trotting out the same stuff. So how is this report going to make any difference? As you say, we can't seem to get it right. We know we've got an obesity problem.

There's umpteen shows on TV about what we can be doing about our weight, various initiatives. We're becoming more obese as a society. We know about the detrimental impacts that has on our own quality of life, on the pressure on the NHS, productivity at work. So what is the role of government here? How is this report going to make any difference? Well, the government's obliged to respond to the report within a few months and to look at the recommendations we've made. We'll be

pushing them very hard on BMI and also asking them to review the obesity strategy. What I can't guarantee is that they will pay attention, but I think it's crucial that they should do. We have a rising mental health crisis, particularly in young people. And we want to make sure that any obesity strategy empowers people to take charge of their own well-being and not simply to focus on endlessly weighing and measuring and stigmatising people. And we've heard terrible tales of people who haven't been able to access health services because supposedly their BMI is too high. Yet it's been analysed it's been found that they're carrying massive amounts of muscle not fat. Well it's be very concerning for people listening to say that we don't that you don't know whether what the government will do about it

particularly as there has been such a sharp increase in children seeking help for eating disorders in the last year it's been an increase of 128% in the number waiting for routine treatments. So what can we say to parents listening who will be very concerned about what's happening? So when it comes to eating disorders, we've been really clear. There is only 96 pence spent on research into eating disorders per sufferer. If you compare that to the £9 of research that goes into other mental health conditions per sufferer. So crucially important that there's more research. There has been funding going into some of the leading charities and some of the frontline services, but they're failing to keep up with demand.

We heard from BEAT, who are the leading eating disorders charity, that they'd seen 173% increase in calls for their support. And so the government really has to understand that eating disorders is an area where there is a significant pressure on children and adolescent mental health services, but they need specialist services. They need the sort of tailored support and early intervention. And to hear from eating disorder sufferers that they're being told that their BMI isn't low enough

is just really shocking. That gives them a target to aim for, the most dangerous thing that can happen to someone suffering from anorexia. I'm going to bring Tatiana into this now. Morning, Tatiana. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Let's talk about your own experience, because you had an accident when you were a child that left you with visible scars.

So how visible are they? So you can see I have it on my neck and I have it on my chin and depending on the weather you'll see I have it on my arms and my legs as well so they're quite visible, I don't feel no shame in hiding my scars or the journey I've been on The inquiry looked into what they called appearance-based discrimination How has this affected you with your burn scars? I think especially it's affected me

because growing up in the age of social media and seeing photos and all these influences, it really affected me because I'm a young person, but I also have a visible difference. So it's like another thing, because of my visible difference added on top of it so it just increased that insecurity even more because I'm like okay even if I do achieve this I still have the burns and that's something that I can't change about myself. Have you suffered

from bullying because of it? I've had people call me disabled had I've been called all kinds of names which ain't great like all a lot of the time when I was in school it was very like hi Tatiana but then would say something behind my back and you know that meant lots of people your age lots of young women will feel dissatisfied about how they look and they haven't got the injuries that you have. How does it make you feel when you hear other young people talking about maybe not feeling a bit fat or that they'd rather change something about their appearance? What does that make you feel?

I feel just as sympathetic as I'd feel for anyone that has a visible difference, because I know it's hard as a young woman growing up and seeing these unattainable things with these things, images that have been edited. And you really want to look like that, but you can't. I would sympathise, but I'd also say it's important for you to yourself to know that you're OK the way you are. And you shouldn't feel the need to fit society's image of what they call perfect or beautiful it's a very good message i'm going to bring dawn into this dawn for a good morning in your experience as a psychotherapist what makes some people who aren't whatever perfect is feel completely comfortable in their own skin whilst others who look fine from the outside feel so wretched all

the time when they look in the mirror um it's quite a complex um complex thing to kind of unpick but what i would say that our is that our perception of ourselves or development of self is embedded in our is often embedded in our early years experience and our relationship with our early caregivers um this is gradually built on by societal familial and community perception i.e the things that we see and how that is unconsciously stored in the psyche um some people due to their early experiences may have a particular punitive internal voice which is amplified by social media and leaves them more vulnerable to critique for themselves around the images that they see out there. So it's a combination

of kind of your environmental aspects, how you've been brought up, what you hear, what you hear in society, from your community and also from things such as social media. So one of the things the report's urging government to do is restrict or even ban altered images in advertising and encourage more diversity and representation. Would this help? No, absolutely. I think the more that we celebrate difference, I mean, it's so wonderful to hear Tatiana's story and really refresh him because it really, her story really helps to illustrate what the report has tried to do, which is to be more inclusive around what is deemed to be normal and how we can challenge the already existing narratives around body image and perfection and what people should look like. Yeah, isn't it interesting what Caroline was saying about BMI that was based around, you know, a white male European man? Well, I think in terms of when we look at things such as patriarchy, that's not surprising at all. The report also points to the Mental Health Foundation, who says that black British girls are more likely to have higher satisfaction with their body image than white British counterparts and are less likely to display disordered eating behaviours.

What do you think about that? And that maybe black British girls and women may be more in step with what the report says around and being more au fait with body image and kind of more focused on health at every size, at different, different size, different images. I think it's important that we look at body image. We widen the parameters of how we look at body image when we're looking particularly at black women. Race and ethnicity are poorly researched areas in terms of considered factors which affect body image. And when we're looking at black women particularly, we need to consider the isms such as racism, sexism and classism and how this intersects with aspects such as skin tone, facial features, hair texture, and how they're linked to social standing, opportunity and beauty standards in proximity to whiteness with regards to historical narrative and what is embedded in trauma.

And what are women telling you? Because, you know, you speak to people all the time. What are they saying to you? Well, I think so we're doing, if we talk about some of the women that I see, I think we're doing better in terms of challenging things, both in the diaspora and in our countries of origin around things such as shadism and what's deemed attractive or what's deemed to be beautiful. I think we're still struggling around measuring our beauty standards in proximity to whiteness and the images that we see in social media or in advertising, et cetera, and what's available in terms of how clothes are cut even and what fits us

and what suits our different body types. I also see that when we're talking about uh body image when we're moving beyond like i said beyond things such as weight moving into things like skin tones and hair textures and features of people but also um looking sometimes at more damaging practices the damaging and psychologically damaging aspects and physically damaging aspects such as skin bleaching and and things that are embedded in kind of like protecting bodies from men such as breast ironing and what is deemed to be you know attractive in terms of things like FGM so it can go right through to the other extreme when we're looking and we're incorporating the experience of different ethnicities. Caroline, it feels like you've covered a lot

in the report, but also barely scratched the surface. It feels like this is a debate that is going to be ongoing. But what we need is practical change, don't we? Yeah, and I think there's some good things that the government's done. I really welcome the inclusion of relationship, sex and health education in the curriculum. And some of us campaigned for that for many years. But of course, children haven't been in school this last 12 months. And there's a real challenge there with making sure that the curriculum is being taught effectively. And I think, I mean, there's a long way to go. And I absolutely accept that these recommendations are the tip of the iceberg. We need action on online harms. The government's bringing forward legislation very soon on that. But I want to see that really effective around social media, age verification, taking more steps to protect young people from digitally enhanced altered images which actually just don't show reality yeah yeah can I just just say sorry about to what Caroline said as well

I think it's really important as well that we we really do leave or make room for exploration around different cultures and their perceptions of what is and isn't healthy and that what health looks like to some extent can be a culturally determined construct based around kind of you know imagery and what we see is you know thinness in the west is being very rich very healthy you can be too rich or being plumper or heavier in build and that demonstrating wealth so I think that's important too absolutely it's a it's a huge ongoing debate and i'm sure we'll be coming back to it on women's hour big thank you to all of you now this weekend sees the bafta awards which has a hugely diverse list of

nominations this year including four women up for best director and edith bowman is joining me now to just to get into it because edith you are a huge film and music fan um you've got your own podcast series soundtracking with edith edith bowman which sees you talking to directors actors writers and composers which is doing brilliantly um but of course and of course you've got a bbc fours life cinematic series which delves into the art of filmmaking and you're normally on the red carpet every year at the baftas this year very different though what's going to be happening this weekend uh dermot and i's going to be happening this weekend? Dermot and I are going to be hosting the main show.

We've been upgraded from red carpet to indoors. It's going to be warmer, I think. But yeah, listen, I think more now than ever, it gives us an opportunity to really celebrate all the extraordinary work that the men and women of the film world have been doing, both in front of and behind the camera. And I'm really proud, like you you say about the diverse list of nominees the work that BAFTA have done behind the scenes to address you know the headlines that were around last year around

all the award seasons about the lack of diversity and this is very much a step in the right direction I feel but it's very exciting and I think for British film as well it's really exciting yeah yeah like you say the awards process had huge criticism last year. Last year, there were no actors of colour represented and all male Best Director shortlist. This year, very different. There are a number of women up for awards, four nominated for Best Director.

How significant is this? It's massive. It is absolutely massive. And such brilliant women. I mean, Shannon Murphy, you know, her first feature film, Baby Teeth. It's such a beautiful, beautiful film. If people haven't seen it, Chloe Zhao, Nomadland, Francis McDormand, I'm a massive fan of. And Sarah Gavron, you know, I mean, she's a bit of a legend for me.

And Rocks was just this brilliant opportunity to showcase new talent on screen. And look at the performances that she got from that. And then, you know, also the Quo Vadis Aida with Jasmila's film is a brutal and honest depiction of one family's experience of the Bosnian War. So there is just a wonderful selection of talent, but diversity up there as well. So you've mentioned a few people

Chloe Zhao and you've mentioned Rocks so who else has impressed you? There's lots of great things I mean the leading actress category is pretty brilliant as well you know you've got everybody from Bookie Backway who's this young lass who was picked from her school to star in Rocks and And she's a phenomenal presence. She's like a prophet. I've been lucky enough to chat to her and she's just old beyond her years and is so profound in the things that she comes out with.

I'm excited to where she goes. And within that same category, you have Frances McDormand, then Vanessa Kirby, pieces of a woman, this brutal and honest and really fantastic portrayal of a woman who loses a child um and vanessa's done an extraordinary job with this as well yeah can we take a moment to just talk about rocks because it is such a beautiful film and a british film as well yeah exactly and

the talent like you say you know now uh bookie's been nominated for a best actress but you just never see that story and if anyone hasn't seen it, please, I urge you to watch it this weekend. It's just a story of female friendship of that section of society that you never normally get to see on screen, do you? Absolutely. And Khosra Ali as well,

who's nominated for a supporting actress, the pair of them are just this fantastic double act. They didn't know each other beforehand, but you watch them on screen and you believe this friendship has been lifelong. and there's just such honesty in this and I think that the great thing that Sarah's done and Faye one of the producers is she's they've given them space they've given the story space to to unfold yeah there's a story yes there's a narrative but it feels so real and authentic and that's a lot down to how it's been made.

Yeah, it's full of heart. I'm delighted that you and Dermot have been upgraded and that you're going to be indoors in the warmth, although I'm going to miss seeing your gloves. You wore gloves one year and you looked incredible. Where did your love of film come from? My dad used to run a little Saturday morning film club up in Scotland when we had a little family run hotel.

And he would put it on for stuff for the kids to do at the weekend because there wasn't much for us to do up there. And so that's where I remember watching things like Bugs and Malone and the Goonies and stuff like that on a Saturday morning on this big screen with people. And it was that communal experience, I think, that really got me into it. You know, you talk about it for days afterwards, singing the songs and all that kind of thing. So I think that's where me into it. You know, you talk about it for days afterwards, singing the songs and all that kind of thing.

So I think that's where the seed was planted. And now you have the inside tracks. You have a BBC Four series, as I mentioned, Life Cinematic. You do get to do in-depth interviews with filmmakers, Sam Mendes and Sofia Coppola. I mean, what a gift for someone who loves film so much. It really, really is. And the last one that we did remotely,

I was with Amma shanti and she was across in denmark but we still managed to hook that up and that aired about a month ago and the brilliant thing about it is that it's about the films that have inspired them so it's not a kind of specialist thing you know you don't have to be a a film aficionado to appreciate the conversation because it's ama and the other guests talking about the films that have inspired them. And it was really interesting to see the crossover of films as well and the different films that they talked about.

Ama talked about Kez, Ken Loach's film, quite a lot, which was really interesting. And then you also can then see how they've influenced their filmmaking as well. So I love doing it and I love making my podcast as well. Yes, yes, yes. Your podcast Soundtracking, where you talk to lots of directors and actors and writers.

You know, I've got to ask you very quickly, though, the most important question, obviously, you're at the BAFTAs. Who are you going to be wearing? Very quickly. Oh, don't you hate that question? You always look amazing. I'm going to hope, well I think at the minute I've got a beautiful Roland Mouret dress that I've been lent to Boro. So I'm going quite classic I think

and a yellow shoe to kind of get a bit of a pop but the stage is massive so I'm going to feel like a little aunt walking about. Hopefully I don't fall over. You will be there, you will fill that stage. Ada, thank you so much. Best of luck. We look forward to watching you. Have a good one. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, it's Greg Jenner here,

the host of Radio 4's funny history podcast, You're Dead to Me. We are rounding off this current third series by going stateside and focusing on five great stories from American history. We'll be hearing from some of the best historians and comedians from across the pond as we get jazzy with the Harlem Renaissance,

enjoy some dry wit in a Prohibition-era speakeasy, discover if the greatest showman, P.T. Barnum, really was quite so great, go exploring with a Native American heroine, Sacagawea, and discover how early America turned itself into a new country and what that even meant. So if you want to learn some new stuff about the history of the new world and laugh while you learn, then check out You're Dead to Me on the BBC Sounds app. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.