Woman's Hour - Bonnie Langford celebrates 50 years of performing, Frances Fricker, Divorce - a male perspective, Lipoedema treatment

Episode Date: April 21, 2022

Presenter: Krupa Padhy Producer: Kirsty Starkey Interviewed Guest: Bonnie Langford Interviewed Guest: Frances Fricker Reporter: Henrietta Harrison Interviewed Guest: Sharie FetzerBonnie Langford was just seven years old when she performed as Bonnie Butler at Theatre Royal Drury Lane in Gone With The Wind. She has since appeared in everything from Gypsy to Cats and Chicago. In more recent years she has played Dorothy Brock in 42nd Street at London’s Theatre Royal, Drury Lane, and brought her unique portrayal of Roz in Dolly Parton’s 9 to 5, The Musical. Bonnie joins Krupa to discuss her career spanning 50 years on stage and her current role as Evangeline Harcourt in Anything Goes.A professional woman who was continually called "good girl" by her boss has won an employment tribunal. Frances Fricker was told by her boss which photo to put on her work profile because HE thought it was the most attractive. The judge in the tribunal found that Frances, an accounts executive with a consultancy company called Gartner, had been sexually harassed at work, and because she fought against the harassment by taking a grievance, she was treated even worse. He also described the culture where she worked as laddish and toxic. In the latest in our series about Life after Divorce we hear a male perspective - Ryan, not his real name,  is 34 and has two young children. He met his wife in his early twenties and married in 2015  but their relationship began to deteriorate after kids came along and they began the divorce process in November 2020. His own parents divorced when he was young. More than 40% of marriages end in divorce – and most of us will have been affected by one  - whether it be our own, our parents’ or our children’s. Yet we don’t speak easily about the process or the fallout.  In Life After Divorce our reporter Henrietta Harrison, who has recently been through a divorce herself, is speaking to listeners at different stages of the process.  It’s estimated that Lipoedema effects up to 1 in 10 women in the UK. It’s the build up of fat cells in the bottom, legs and sometimes the arms. Until recently the most common type of treatment was liposuction – which permanently removes fat cells – but as of last month the regulator NICE has said liposuction can no longer be used as a treatment in the UK – deeming it unsafe and ineffective. We hear from Sharie Fetzer from Lipoedema UK and a patient who was halfway through her liposuction treatment when the rules changed.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Krupal Bharti and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. On the programme, we're going to tell you more about a condition that often goes undiagnosed. It's called lipoedema, which impacts one in ten people, mainly women, and what it is is the build-up of fat cells in the bottom, legs and sometimes the arms. And up until recently, the most common type of treatment for this was liposuction. But due to safety concerns, its use has now been stopped in the UK until further research is carried out. So we're going to hear from someone whose treatment has

been stopped midway and the chair of Lipoedema UK. Bonnie Langford is a familiar face to many of us on TV and in musicals with an impressive portfolio of acting, singing and dancing under her belt. Well now she is marking 50 years in showbiz and we're going to have a catch up with her a little later. In our latest in the series of life after divorce, we'll hear from a man we are calling Ryan about his divorce journey. He's in his 30s with two little children. More than 40% of marriages end in divorce and most of us will have been affected by one. Our series is trying to open up a frank and honest conversation about the process. And you might remember the anatomy of kindness here on Radio 4 and the kindness test, the world's largest study of kindness.

Well, now researchers have found on average, with some exceptions, people get kinder as they get older. The study from a group of academics in California has found that this change in mood is largely thanks to rising levels of oxytocin, which is often called a feel-good hormone. So by doing more good, we create what is called a positive feedback loop. We want to hear from you. Do you recognise this in yourself as you age? Are you becoming a more compassionate, kind and gentle person? What about others around you? There are various ways to get in touch with us. You can text us on 84888, email us via our website or catch us over on social media at BBC Women's Hour.

A leading scientist who investigates every maternal death in the UK says pregnant women have been an afterthought during the coronavirus pandemic and that some of their deaths were preventable. Dr Marion Knight, who is Professor of Maternal and Child Population Health at the National Perinatal Epidemiology Unit, says the latest data shows that there have been at least 40 maternal deaths from COVID in the UK. Almost all were unvaccinated and more than half happened after pregnant women were advised to take up the vaccine. Professor Knight joins me on the line now. Good morning. Thank you for joining us here on the programme. Good morning. In terms of numbers,

the uptake of the vaccine amongst pregnant women is improving. We do know that. The latest stats show that more than 50% of pregnant women have had one jab, but that's much lower in some groups, which means that some are still at risk. That's exactly right. We have to recognise that without a vaccine, you are still at risk of becoming significantly ill when you're pregnant, even with the Omicron variant. So we know that if you're admitted to hospital with Omicron and you haven't had a vaccine in pregnancy, you've got about a one in 20 risk of needing intensive care

and still about a one in five risk of your baby being born preterm, which obviously has long-term health consequences for your baby being born preterm, which obviously has long term health consequences for your baby. I know that vaccine uptake has been much lower in some community groups, namely minority groups and those from more deprived areas. In your opinion, was enough done to ensure that pregnant women from these groups were given the confidence to take up the vaccine? We've got to recognise that we need lots of actions to reassure women about the safety of the vaccination. And that will require specific,

working with specific groups and in specific areas. There's no one size fits all. Every woman needs an individual conversation with people she knows and trusts. And to start with, we need the information to be able to give to women. So we do have to recognise the long term impacts and consequences of decisions to exclude pregnant women from research, which is where this problem began. You touch on research there. In your opinion, was enough done to prevent the deaths that you mentioned there? So we have very clear guidance on the ethics of including pregnant

women in vaccine research in the event of a pandemic, before the pandemic even happened. But sadly, that was not enacted. So when the vaccines were first introduced, no trials were done in pregnant women, even after licensing. So we didn't have any data to be able to reassure women that the vaccines were safe. We do have that data now, lots and lots of that data. But unfortunately, the concerns are still persisting. So again, it's really important that we can have individual conversations with women to reassure them about the safety of vaccination. And can you clarify, if possible, why that pre-pandemic data that you talk about wasn't included with the vaccine data, the vaccine research? So there is no incentive for commercial companies to include pregnant women in research. And I don't mean I'm not advocating researching on pregnant women without their knowledge.

And when we wouldn't consider it to be completely safe. But excluding women, not offering women the option to be included in a vaccine trial, means that we have no information. Because for companies, that is considered to be too risky, where actually we see the consequences that pregnant women can then not benefit from vaccination. So we need to make sure that we've got a framework which ensures that pregnant women can benefit. Can we talk about messaging? Because during those first months of the vaccine rollout, only pregnant health or health care workers or those at risk groups were advised by the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation to consider the jab due to a lack of evidence. And then in April 2021, we have that reassurance that the vaccine is safe for pregnant women. But was the damage done, in your opinion, in those early days that that seed of doubt was planted in the minds of many pregnant women?

That's exactly right. The seed of doubt was planted because we didn't have that evidence. And that unfortunately has led to long-term consequences. As you mentioned at the beginning, I know that there have been deaths of pregnant women who've not been vaccinated, who were eligible for vaccination. There have been no deaths in pregnant women who've not been vaccinated, who were eligible for vaccination. There have been no deaths in pregnant women who've been fully vaccinated.

And that's a really important message. We have to think about the benefits of vaccination and not just any theoretical potential risks. We are at a situation where COVID regulations are being lifted. We've got fewer masks. We've got less social distancing. And it almost seems like to many the pandemic is a thing of the past. And it might make some, including pregnant women, feel that they don't need to be vaccinated now, that things are better. And others still might be concerned about getting the vaccine if they are pregnant.

What do you say to them? For me, it's absolutely the converse. The vaccine is now more essential than ever because we've still got significant amounts of infection. Those protective measures, mask wearing, social distancing, are not being practised as widely, which means pregnant women are more vulnerable. And we know there's really other benefits to the baby.

We know that if you are vaccinated, your antibodies pass across the placenta to help protect the baby. So there are only positives to vaccination. I do have this statement from the Department of Health and Social Care, which says we are doing everything we can to encourage pregnant women to get vaccinated to protect themselves and their babies from COVID. We have always followed the expert advice of the Independent Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation, which advise offering vaccines to pregnant women in line with the wider rollout from December 2020, focusing first on those at higher risk of exposure or complications from the disease, and then to all pregnant women in April 2021.

And we continue to work closely with the NHS, clinicians and partners to provide advice and information at every possible opportunity to support women getting vaccinated. Professor Marion Knight, thank you for joining us and bringing us your expertise on this very important subject. Thank you. Bonnie Langford was just seven years old when she performed as Bonnie Butler at the Theatre Royal Jewellery Lane in Gone With The Wind. She has since appeared in everything from Gypsy to Cats in Chicago. In more recent years, she's played Dorothy Brock in 42nd Street

and she brought her unique portrayal of Roz in Dolly Parton's 9 to 5, The Musical. Well, Bonnie joins me now to discuss her 50-year career performing on stage and her current role as Evangeline Harcourt in the musical Anything Goes. Very good to have you on the programme, Bonnie. Good morning, Krupa morning it's good to be here thank you for joining us uh you are marking 50 years on stage but you've done tv as well you sing you even ice skate now where is your natural home but it's not in a nice room getting more although i did enjoy it very very much um at At the moment, my natural home is, well, here in Liverpool.

I'm at the Liverpool Empire. And being back on stage, having had sort of two years of live theatre being absolutely sort of decimated is absolutely wonderful. And, you know, as you said, I'm playing Evangeline Harport in Anything Goes, and we've brought it out to the regions first before it goes to the Barbican Centre for the summer, which is very exciting. It's a long career. You started at the tender age of

seven in Gone With The Wind and you were even nominated for awards by the age of 10. What do you remember from those very tender days? Well, what I feel so grateful about is the fact that I actually have a very good memory still. And I do remember all those things very vividly. So a lot of the stuff that happened to me, although I was extremely young, I think in some respects, being so young meant that I could take it all in as a sponge, literally. I didn't have to particularly be chatty or sociable. I was a very, very quiet child, contrary to popular belief. And so I do remember all these things vividly.

I mean, I remember when I was six, actually, I was on television for the first time. And I enjoyed that immensely, being told all about the technical aspects of it and enjoying that from my own sort of perspective. But being on stage, I mean, to have started when I was seven at the beautiful Theatre Royal Drury Lane, I just think was an absolute privilege. And, you know, I always it was never thought that I would sort of that was the beginning of a career. They were all wonderful experiences for me, invaluable experiences that I may never get again. And I just feel really sort of grateful that I am still doing it and I still enjoy it. I don't enjoy it all the time. There's times when, you know, like everything, you think,

I don't like this. It can be a very cruel and unforgiving industry at times, but somehow the core of it is that I actually enjoy storytelling. I enjoy being, it gives me confidence being somebody else and portraying their story. Your family are in show business. I know that your mum was a dance teacher. Was it therefore inevitable that you'd go into musical theatre?

Well, I don't think so. I mean, my mother's 91 and she's still teaching. So, you know, if nothing else, she's got determination. And my great aunt was a dancer with Pavlova. So what was part of my background was training. It was learning your craft. It wasn't about being famous. It wasn't about being on television or on stage. It was experiences that led to the ability and the craft of being able to do this chosen profession. But I don't think it was inevitable that I did it because quite frankly, often people who are in an industry don't necessarily encourage their children to do it

because they know the reality of it. And it can be quite, as I say, it can be quite harsh and unforgiving. So in some respects, I think I probably sort of bucked the trend although yes my family many of them I think there's obviously a creative uh vein that runs through us all um I have two sisters my um my eldest sister um most of all her girls are are actors or singers or dancers or all three uh my other sister they're all creative in the industry mostly behind the scenes and writers and and so you know it's in the blood there is a creative gene that's for true that's for sure and i have to say i interviewed uh your niece uh zizi charlin who is playing the lead in mary poppins in the west end she was utterly fantastic and uh it's it's it's good to see that there's certainly that

bond that connects you all uh you are currently touring in the role of Evangeline Harcourt in the musical Anything Goes. Let's get a flavour of you and the rest of the cast singing. This is Bon Voyage. I know your life travels in shock I'm glad to say goodbye, sweetheart I'm a sea shore, my place is a passion I'm glad to watch the streams leave from back to me Oh, my dear, oh, my darling, my sweetheart

I'm glad to live my day for the rest of my life I'm glad to see you, baby, let's In English, I think you were practising some of your moves there. I've never heard that on record. That's amazing. Tell us about the musical for those who don't know about it. Well, it's Words of Music by Cole Porter. So the musical score is absolutely glorious. And that's about the only thing I sing in it, actually. But everybody else does a lot of singing and dancing and tap dancing. There's obviously Anything Goes, It's Delovely, I Get a Kick Out of You, Blow, Gabriel, Blow.

I mean, the score is absolutely wonderful and timeless. And the story is a bit madcap because it's set in 1934 on a cruise liner, on a ship that is sailing from New York to London. And the characters that are within this short trip, there's a lot of jeopardy. They have to sort of make their lives work. But obviously, fate takes its hand. It's very slapstick. It's almost a farce. So to be honest, you come to the show to escape what's going on in the real world. It's an uplifting, what I call a blue sky musical, just fun, just lighthearted, tap dancing sailors. And really, quite frankly,

what more can you want uplifting but also physically demanding performing every night singing dancing where does your stamina come from oh uh cappuccinos really um i don't know nothing nothing particularly i do have a joy for for sort of being on stage for for having that live experience and that gives you an adrenaline that's for sure being in a a company, I have missed that. That's one of the things about the pandemic is that, you know, we were not able to be in the room where it happens live every night with like-minded people,

with all the skills that it takes, both on stage and backstage. And to be with those people again and to have that wonderful camaraderie, that's what I enjoy. Hearing the live music. We have 15 musicians there playing this fantastic music. And to be on stage with glorious actors.

I'm with Kerry Ellis. I'm with Simon Callow. We will get married every night. I'm with Dennis Lawson and a whole team of, I think, 39 in the cast. So that's where my energy comes from. That's where my enthusiasm comes from. Again, being back in that creative environment. Of course, it's not just musicals that you work in.

TV has been a big part of your career. Doctor Who and EastEnders. Many of our listeners will know you from your role as Carmel Kazemi, who was mother to two boys in the soap opera and the storyline of your young onscreen son being killed in a stabbing. It was one of the most emotional storylines of the programme in recent years. How did you deal with that close up emotion? And even to this day, because obviously the older son, Kush, he was then pushed in front of a train. And I understand that you've not had the courage

to even watch that scene. No, who wants to see that? I mean, no. I mean, I don't keep up with the soap as it is really anyway. And so I'm not going to tune in to see something that seemed to be so sort of unpleasant. And also because, you know, you create a bond when you're in something three and a half years,

you create a bond with your fellow actors. So you don't want to see them being killed off particularly but um it's it's it's a it's fascinating being part of a soap it really is and I really found the whole experience very um inspiring as well because the workload and the intensity that happens to create a drama four times a week, that is this completely sort of rolling, constant machine, is brilliant. And when you do a big storyline, such as a knife crime storyline, the intensity and the integrity,

I think is very important, and the sensitivity. And one thing that I think is great about Soaps is that it doesn't shy away from the reality of it, from the truth. And it often creates a conversation within a family because hopefully it represents all the different members of that family and how certain experiences affect them individually. And so my role as the grieving mother, I felt was very important to show, you know, that we're not all politically correct. We don't do the right things, but we have to be truthful as far as emotion is concerned. And the reality, the rawness of that emotion was really important.

And we got to have a lot of people came onto the programme who had experienced it in their own lives, and it was really important to be utterly respectful and sensitive to that. And I think it was very powerful to show that actually, although we're a dramatisation, that it's important to show how that is affecting people on a daily basis.

We might not hear about it so much in news these days, but it certainly is still happening. And somehow we have to find a way of stopping it. Away from acting, we know that you've been ice skating on dancing on ice you decided to give that a go but what's the next challenge for you oh who knows I mean last year I was a squirrel in the last answer I mean this is what I think this is what I quite like about my job is that I actually never know what's going to come next and as much as you might want to plan and say, I'd love it if my career went in this direction,

quite frankly, what real life, you know, what it actually offers you, you never know. And that ridiculous phone call that might come through, I do like different challenges, obviously. And you listen to your instinct and see if you can give it a go. I did the ice skating because I thought I was like Bambi on ice and it would be hilarious. But in fact, I then found it so inspiring and brilliant looking at, you know, how people can

ice skate. So, you know, I just don't know what's going to come next. Who knows? Hopefully it's great stuff. I've still got an appetite for it, which I'm really thrilled about. So thank you for that, Universe. Bonnie, thank you for joining us here on Woman's Hour and just to say anything goes. It's currently on a UK tour returning to the Barbican Theatre in London on the 25th of June. Now I have been asking you about kindness and whether you

feel that you are getting kinder as you get older. That's according to some new research from California. A couple of messages to bring you here. Dear Woman's Hour, I don't recognise people are kinder as they age. Quite the opposite. I use crutches as I have MS. I can't count the number of times I've been pushed aside by older people in the supermarket

whilst being shown great courtesy by younger people. Another one. I'm confused by the kindness project as it presents kindness as something positive. Surely kindness is just a really basic substitute for real feeling. How would you feel if someone said I never loved you? I was just being kind. That is from Julia. And one more I want to bring you. A brilliant woman's hour going to tell you why they have grown kinder as they've gotten older. You need to talk to people around them.

Please do keep your messages coming in to us. I'll try and bring you a few more towards the end of the programme. In the latest in our series about life after divorce, we hear a male perspective. Ryan, not his real name, is 34 and has two young children. He met his wife in his early 20s and married in 2015 but their relationship began to deteriorate after kids came along and they began the divorce process in November 2020. His own parents divorced when he was young. More than 40% of marriages end in divorce and most of us will have been affected by one whether it be our own, our parents or our children's. Yet we don't speak

easily about the process or the fallout. In Life After Divorce, our reporter Henrietta Harrison, who has recently been through a divorce herself, is speaking to listeners at different stages of We got together very young. We were 20, and you change a lot in your 20s, don't you? So we grew apart. Obviously, neither of us were happy, and I think that sort of led to, I guess, us getting at each other. There wasn't a lot of love there. So you were sort of bumbling along, but neither of you very very happy i certainly wasn't and um i don't think she was either we both worked

really hard we had two small children she's really difficult covid probably didn't help i guess certainly wasn't rushing in the door after work and sort of grabbing her and you know i don't know were you unpleasant to each other i don't think we went out of our way to be nasty to each other but I guess you do sort of moan at each other don't you moaning about things that really you know you're only here once it doesn't matter does it is that being unpleasant probably yeah it's not nice is it what was the trigger I mean how did it sort of finally come to an end I think we were driving we'd just gone to get a coffee really trivial I think my ex was sort of moaning about something

at me I can't remember what it was no but I I just pulled the car over and I said I just can't do this anymore and she was in agreement it wasn't all me like I think she sort of thought no you're right and we had a chat and it was all fairly amicable I remember sitting in the park and ride and we sort of had a chat and we said like neither of us are happy it's probably time that we sort of thought no you're right and we had a chat and it was all fairly amicable i remember sitting in the park and ride and we sort of had a chat and we said like neither of us are happy it's probably time that we sort of parted ways isn't it it wasn't really dramatic we sort of just both said we just can't do it and i think maybe both of you think well we'll sort it out but we just never did did you have counseling or anything like that no we probably should have a lot earlier because that's what it's there for isn't it rather than just plodding along and then giving up it is too easy to give up these days isn't it and it's a generational thing and

certainly people like grandparents wouldn't have done it over moaning each other that's just the norm ryan lives in a two-bed flat above a shop in a village in the east of england we talk in the kitchenette come sitting room while his kids are sleeping. There's a table, chairs, a sofa and boxes and boxes of toys. The only pictures on the wall are those drawn and painted by his kids. After his ex moved out he stayed in the family home for three months before he moved here. That was a really lonely time that was and actually it was better that when I moved out of the family home and moved to a new place because it was mine.

It's just the memories, isn't it? You sort of rattle around a big house because you've had a family home and you do go down that sort of dark, lonely road. You've got friends and family, but at the end of the day it's your battle, isn't it, in your head? And you do have to deal with that on your own. It just takes time. Did she take a lot of the stuff out of the house i sort of was so not in you know the right frame of mind i remember she

said and we're still amicable at the time she said well my dad's gonna help me move i was like fine i'll take kids out for the day you you know take what you want but like when i got back the house was literally like stripped i wasn't too impressed but looking back on it now am i bothered no you know it's what it is she was having a stressful time as well moving etc so as a man i definitely think you sort of give up at some point you know i certainly was just like do you know what it's possessions i'm not i'm not bothered um i had a few sentimental things and a tv and that was about it a lot of the stuff had gone most of the kid stuff and even things like little ones passports and that and birth certificates which I didn't really think about at the time but

I also need them and have a right to them and it's like we didn't even discuss that it was just sort of like taken it's still that old stigma isn't it that the mother has more rights and and as a dad you you are on the back foot still why do you say that you're on the back foot as a man you just feel it you still feel it absolutely I know I didn't physically give birth to them but i've been there from day one i do everything for my children so you had to fight quite hard to get 50 50 with the kids not really i think originally when we split up we sort of had that conversation and my ex was very much you shouldn't have them 50 etc and then all of a sudden she sent me a parenting plan these are your days it's 50 fit no conversation it was just like

these are your days it's 50 i think it was he's not gonna be able to do that so she had moved the children about 45 miles away so on my days i was up, driving them to school, then driving another 50 miles to work the other way, then in the evening driving 50 miles back to get them, and then 50 miles again, which wasn't fair on the kids. And I'd done that for three months because I was like, I'm not giving up, and I'm so glad I didn't. I mean, it nearly killed me, but I'm so glad I stuck it out. I can see why men give up. I can see why men walk away and give up because you're fighting every day. You're trying to work.

You're trying to look after your kids. Everything's a fight. And you sort of think, how much more fight have I actually got left? I guess my children gave me that strength to do it for them. I'm so glad I did because the 50% of the time I have them is amazing.

As tough as it is, you know, five and two, but I love it. I wouldn't change it. Yeah, it's interesting. There are, I don't think, any stats or breakdowns of child arrangements unless it gets to court. No. It's very hard to know, you know, what the truth is out there. I mean, certainly anecdotally amongst my peers it

feels like the kind of 80 20 favored towards mum having the kids is the most common which obviously you didn't want to accept what do you think is key to some more men having the the attitude that you had which was i'm i'm going to do it, I can do it. Believing in yourself for a start, I think, because when you're married and you're bringing up small kids, you've got that other person, haven't you? All of a sudden, I was a single dad bringing up two kids, but I couldn't get my little ones to sleep. Obviously, I'd done it when we were married, but you've got that other person, haven't you?

And you've got the backup. And as a man, you have to get that maternal instinct. that that actually takes a lot of time but you do get it and when they're sick you become I can't explain it but I would just say stick with it and do not give up your children because when they're older they're going to remember what you've done for them you mentioned that your parents split how old were you when they split um about five actually yeah do you think that in some ways motivated your determination to do more than what your dad did yeah definitely because i used to dread going to my dad's my dad was a good bloke like don't get me wrong i'm still very close

to them now but it was like all my friends were at home it was like every other weekend it was you know i couldn't wait to stop it to be fair and i don't want that with my kids i want them to feel like they've got two homes that are the same and it's just normal and we're at a stage now where that is normal i hope it continues i find it really interesting area because my kids i think very much see my place as home and i think in some ways i quite like it like that i'm embarrassed to admit it. Well, why? We're human, aren't we? We have emotions. You're not going to say, oh, I love it that they see my exes as their home and they don't love it. Of course you're not going to do that.

I mean, that'd be dishonest, wouldn't it? You want your children to want to be with you more, don't you? That's just life. I talked to a woman we called Amanda in the first part of this series and we discussed our shared personal experience that after divorce men tended to pursue other relationships and put their needs first. But Ryan's having none of that. No, I definitely not. I mean, my ex is living with someone and moved on really quickly and he was in the house within, you know, under a year.

So and I haven't, you know, it's me and the kids. And actually, I kind of like it like that. You know, I give them my full attention. I don't rely on anyone financially or for any help with them. It's me. So, are you actively not looking for a relationship? No, I have been seeing people. There's been no one here in the morning?

No, no, no, definitely not. You wouldn't want to do that? No, no. Why not? I like it in the morning? No, no, no, definitely not. You wouldn't want to do that? No. Why not? I like it in the morning, the kids jump in my bed. Do you know what I mean? We get up, we have our little routine. Yeah.

I'm not saying it won't happen, but, you know, right now it's not my priority. Kids and work. Your ex has got a new partner? Yes. I knew she was seeing someone. It felt to me fairly quick i definitely didn't deal with it well i think my friends will tell you that um to the point where they sort of all had like a private whatsapp group and um they came around one night and they were like i drove

like 50 miles to come around there because they're obviously a bit worried about me they sort of came around and they were like let's sort yourself out my first thought was the kids are gonna have a new dad that's it they're gonna have a new dad. That's it, they're going to have a new dad. And that was what was stressing me out. And I sort of thought, how am I going to deal with it? That really, really got to me. It broke my heart. It did break me.

And I'll admit that. Were you angry about her having a new man? Or were you angry about there just being another man around your kids? Or were they all conflated? Actually, she was very respectful. Before he moved in, she said, look, do you want to meet him? I was like, no, not really. I know he is.

Did you meet him? No, I know he is. I met him years ago. I don't need to sit there and shake his hand and just be really awkward, wouldn't it? Look, I don't like you. Not who you are, just because it's just tough. From what I hear from the kids he's nice to my kids so actually I couldn't really ask for much more than that it was tough

knowing that my ex had moved on even though I didn't want to be with her you know that's that's one of our downfalls isn't it as a man that I don't want to be with you but I don't want anyone else to be with you either but that's stupid isn't it so you know very very normal I think women are like that too I don't think it's just just you know. Very, very normal. I think women are like that too. I don't think it's just men. Yeah. You said when you were in that more insecure, angry place, you were worried about you being replaced as a dad.

Yeah. I mean, you know, in what sense? Were you worried about them walking down the aisle or? That's not going to happen. They don't call him dad. They'll never call him dad just because I'm such a present father. Now, if I wasn't, it probably would happen. I struggle when I see dads not wanting their kids more because it's like, why would you do that? Why wouldn't you change your life and just revolve around your kids? But I know sometimes it's not possible. And I've had

to change a lot about my career and stuff like that to be able to do it. I've been accepted into my dream job. Then the divorce obviously started and the childcare just wasn be able to do it. I've been accepted into my dream job. Then the divorce obviously started and the childcare just wasn't going to be possible. So it isn't an easy choice, but it's so worth it. A friend of mine said to me before the breakdown of my marriage, you know, when I was, can I do it? Should we do it? My friend said to me, do it before your mum dies, which I think, you know, was actually really wise advice.

And I was sort of quite taken aback by it. there was certainly two or three occasions where you know I was kind of at my lowest ebb and I had nowhere to move to and I was trying to find rentals and I remember just feeling really defeated by it one day and dropping the kids off at school and went to bed at like you know quarter past nine or whatever and I just like, I don't know what to do. I remember my mum calling me that day. She knew what I was going through. She's like, where are you? I'm in bed.

Are you crying? I was like, no, I'm not crying. She said, that's good. She said, you get up, have a shower, make a cup of tea and make another phone call to that landlord or whatever. On those very, very tough days, you know, she was there. Was your mum plugged in in that landlord or whatever on those very very tough days you know she was there was your mum plugged in in that way or your mates i think my mum's gone through this divorce as much as i have to be fair and she's been solid i mean i remember sobbing in my mum's arms and she's only five foot bless her she got me through some tough tough times so she's had a second divorce what

were you crying about that day do you remember what triggered it i just think it was a situation around the kids and when when i used to send them back and it's still tough when i send them back now i've just had them for five days and now they go back to mothers for five days so i don't get them till monday and i still find these five days tough that seesaw's really hard isn't it it's like the intensity of having them on your own yeah then they're gone then they're gone it's like nothingness so i've not got my head around that no i don't think i ever will it'll be better when they're older and they have a phone but you will get used to it i'm told you can do cool stuff on your own right yeah i mean i work and see my mates and whatever but it's still it's not your kids is it

you moved to this village out of a town to a village so you could be a 50 50 parent how welcomed have you been by the village as a single parent i don't know anyone when i've recently spoke to one of my daughter's friends at school's mother and you know that's been good but because also you're single and you just look like a creep don't you it's like everyone's like oh he's on the prowl it's like i'm not i just want something to talk to and play with my kids my child mind has been great she's been really welcoming i think there is more of a mum's network isn't there do you feel that yeah actually i was thinking about making like a single dad's facebook group you don't want to look like a bit of a wally do you

do you know i mean like come and hang out with me and my kids so i think there is a space for that though i'm sure there's men out there obviously that are like me even just to have a chat about things and whatever i think that helps do you think people feel sorry for you um as a divorcee i always find people there's certain people that kind of envy me they think i'm having a wild time and having adventurous sex and drinking cocktails and there's some people that think that and then there's other people that I think oh they feel sorry for me they think my life is hard how do you think you're perceived there's probably a point where it all first happened where I wanted some sympathy but now I'm not in that place so no

probably not so much now do you think you'll marry again i would like to get married again because actually that's a funny thing when you get married you don't really well i don't know about anyone else but i didn't really take in what the vows meant but i went to two of my best friends weddings last year and i actually listened to the vows and i was like you know if i get married again i'm going to make sure i read those vows every day and i'm going to do it to the best of my ability. I wouldn't say I'm on the scrap heap just yet. If you met your 32-year-old self just before the divorce, what advice would you give him? What would you say was ahead for him? It's going to be all right.

You can have some dark, dark times, and I mean really dark times, where you cannot see any way out of it. But it is going to be alright. Ryan there, speaking to our reporter Henrietta Harrison. And we got this message from a listener he was also tuning in who writes in 1991 after 15 years of marriage and four kids my wife told me in a dear John letter she had never loved me and she left me for a woman I was devastated and even more so when I got conned into temporarily leaving but she filed for divorce and I lost my home and my kids. 30 years later, it still hurts.

Please do get in touch if you too have been affected by the issues raised in that series and that piece, which we will continue to bring you in the coming weeks here on Woman's Hour. A woman who was continually called a good girl by her boss has won an employment tribunal. The judge in the tribunal found that Frances Fricker, who was an accounts executive with a consultancy company called Gartner, had been sexually harassed at work and because she fought against the harassment by taking a grievance, she was treated even worse. As well as being called a good girl, Frances was told by her boss which photo to put on her work profile because he thought it was the most attractive. The judge also described the culture where Frances worked as laddish and toxic

and that some social media posts were nasty and sexist. Well, Frances Rickard joins me now. Thank you for coming on to the programme. Tell us when the Good Girl comments began. They started roughly around about sort of the February time in around about 2018. So they lasted for about three months or so. And they persisted? They did yeah so the ones that were actually raised in the in the actual reading itself it only sort of pulled out sort of specific parts but there are quite a few that were sort of said to me vocally as well so they kind of were it felt

like they were all the time to be honest with you over that sort of three month period it was kind of used as a as a kind of like a controlling behavior and your boss Giuseppe Adderaldi he not just he didn't he didn't just use that language but I understand he also picked on your appearance and your photos on social media yeah he did he picked a particular photo on my Facebook account where he thought I looked fat. It was actually taken about three months after I had my child. So there was a certain amount of sort of, you know, sort of excess skin around my stomach. And he was sort of commenting on the fact that he thought I looked fat. Yes.

And he used that a lot as well. It is shocking just hearing that at that time. How did that make you feel? I mean, at the time, I sort of didn't really want to sort of make too much of a fuss. You know, being in that sort of discriminatory culture, it was very difficult to sort of try and not be offended by it. However, you know, especially when something so personal is being described as being fat is after having a child is, you know, it's incredibly difficult to sort of tolerate. But I did to begin with. And eventually it just sort of wore me down.

The judge specifically made a point about the language used. He said language evolves over time. Words and phrases that might once have seemed harmless are now regarded as racial, homophobic and sexist slurs. Referring to a woman in her late 30s with a school-aged child as a girl is demeaning. Frances, were you expecting the judge to feel so strongly about the matter of semantics? I didn't know what to expect from it at all. You know, I was representing myself and I had absolutely no idea really which way it was going to go. I just know that I needed to sort of stand up for myself and to speak out. And this was the only process that I could have done. So, I mean,

I cannot fault the tribunals at all. You know, what they've written and the meticulous detail that they went into was incredible. So, no, I couldn't fault them at all. They picked up on absolutely everything I felt. So, I'm really, really grateful for them. Another term they picked up on was banter. The judge said that some would suggest it was harmless. He said it was not, it was persistent. It's an important detail. Banter is so often used as an excuse for this kind of behaviour, isn't it? Correct. Yeah, I think it's sort of, it's almost like a bit of an easy sort of, you can just push it to one side and classify it as banter. But actually, when it's done like a bit of an easy sort of you can just push it to one side and classify it as banter but actually when it's done over a very prolonged period of time and it affects you mentally and physically you know I lost a lot of weight during this time I'm not at all overweight by any stretch

of the imagination but you know even having it you know called being fat every pretty much felt like every day it does eventually sort of grind you down. And to the point where you do start to change who you are as an individual. You know, I didn't know where to go. I didn't know who to speak to about it. And of course, when I did try and speak out about it, you know, I was met with hostility, you know, towards Gartner, from Gartner. It was it was awful. And I understand this did go one step further because your boss Giuseppe Adoroldi didn't give evidence at the tribunal and the company didn't call him as a witness so we aren't able to get his personal take on what happened but the judge also agreed with you that Mr Adoroldi wanted a sexual relationship with you. Tell us about that situation what you did how you responded

how did you deal with that situation? It was it to deal with it. I mean, I've done this because I know that there are going to be many other women in the same situation as me right now. But he was my boss. He recruited me. He set all of my targets. He practically owns who I was within that sort of organization. So having somebody like that, being persistent in his pursuit towards you without trying to offend him and to effectively to lose your job, because that's, that's what would have happened. It was, it was impossible to manage. So effectively, what I was trying to do was to sidestep it, you know, I was just trying to kind of almost, you know, sort of bounce it back and sort of laugh it off and kind of move on and, you know,

and sort of try not to make too much of a thing about it because I genuinely didn't know what else to do. There was no sort of particular helplines. There was no mentor group, you know, at Gartner. So there was literally nowhere for me to turn other than just sort of try and tolerate it to a degree. And it didn't, you know, clearly it didn't work. It wasn't the right thing for me to have done. But I genuinely at the time didn't know what else I could have done to have made it any better. But eventually you took out a grievance and the judge said that when you did that, things just got worse. It did. I mean, I, you know, I mean, I feel a little bit upset by the fact that the media is focused just purely on the good girl comments. You know, I wouldn't have dedicated four years of my life just to fight, you know, being called or described as a

good girl. You know, it was the way in which Gartner responded to the grievance that I raised. You know, they broke confidentiality. They effectively, they, you know, they treated the whole grievance proceedings terribly so that, you know, they put me at a disadvantage. I felt as though everybody was closing ranks on me. You know, I was completely singled out for speaking out about the treatment that I received from him. I hold Gartner 100% responsible for the behaviour that is, you know, that is acceptable within Gartner.

I wouldn't have had to have put up with, you know, the situation with Mr. Adderalli, with Mr. Wood and also Mr. Bissett, you know, if they didn't allow that sort of behaviour to prevail within the organisation. Well, I'm sure many of our listeners commend you for stepping up and taking that action. I should at this point bring you the statement from the company Gartner, which says we're extremely disappointed in the ruling of the UK Employment Tribunal.

We don't believe the evidence supports the ruling and we are currently determining potential next steps, including whether we appeal this decision. At Gartner, we are committed to creating an inclusive culture where every associate feels safe, respected and empowered to do their best work. I know that you also have a young daughter and this must have been a huge step to take, considering you were raising her as a single mum. Why was this so important to you and has it been worth it it's you know I look back it's been four years of my entire life and this isn't just you know this isn't just ad hoc this has been all consuming for the last sort of four years I was representing myself I was raising my daughter I was trying to hold down a full-time job

and also you know sort of do all the work, you know, that's required to do all of this. It was excruciating, to be honest with you, it was awful. And is it worth it? I mean, the fact that they're still trying to appeal it, I am doing this to change behaviour, I'm doing this to make, you know, workplace a better situation for other women, for my daughter when she grows up. I hope that they take the moral high ground and they actually do something about the culture at Gartner because if they don't, then none of this is worth it. I never did this for the money. I did this to stand up and to be heard and, you know, and to change behaviour. Frances Fricker, thank you for joining us and sharing your story

with us. Thank you. We're now going to talk about a recent change in health guidelines which is impacting women who suffer from a condition known as lipodema. This is the build-up of fat cells in the bottom legs and sometimes the arms and it's estimated that it affects up to one in ten women. Up until recently the most common type of treatment was liposuction, which permanently removes fat cells. But as of last month, the body that publishes guidance for the health sector, NICE, has said that liposuction cannot currently be used as a treatment in the UK, saying it is unsafe and ineffective.

To discuss this, I'm joined now by Shari Fetzner, who is chairperson of LipoDema UK. Thank you for joining us, Shari. First of all, tell us a bit more about the condition. How common is it and what causes it? At the moment, we don't have any official statistics because it's so difficult to get a diagnosis through lack of awareness and training in the medical profession. But my statement is always, I'm sure everybody knows somebody with lipoedema, either in their family or their close circle of friends, because we believe it affects up to one in 10 females in the population. Why is it so hard to diagnose?

It does appear to look like obesity but it is not obesity it is a genetic formation of fat which occurs usually following puberty or some hormonal change in a female body and because people it does tend to run in families, when people first consult their GP or any other medical professional, the medical professional tends to assume they are overweight because at the moment, the whole ethics in the medical profession is that you become overweight through your own lack of exercise and poor food selection. But this isn't applicable to lipoedema. It happens regardless of how few calories you consume or how enthusiastically you exercise. And once it is diagnosed, what treatments are available for it? In the UK and actually in the rest of the world, there are very few successful treatments.

And we're very lucky that St George's Hospital in Tooting is actually at the forefront of genetic research. So they have a worldwide reputation for treating lipoedema. But a lot of the surgical skills are still overseas. So we have very few surgeons qualified in the UK to treat patients because although it appears to be a cosmetic procedure, it is not. It is a medical procedure and requires specialised training. And we have heard from NICE saying that liposuction, which was a treatment, that is now being paused because they say evidence on the safety of liposuction is inadequate and raises concerns of major adverse events such as fluid imbalance, fat embolism, deep vein thrombosis,

amongst other things. They also say that the efficacy is inadequate and based on limited evidence. What do you make of their findings? Well, we had quite a lot of input into NICE and we really respect their concerns for safety and the way they did take on board that lipoedema is a genuine condition and that it requires proper treatments and research but we are sort of dumbfounded by their concerns for safety because they didn't have a lot of surgical input from experts many of whom are overseas

or even in the UK because of the way the meetings were held and the timings of the advance notice. The surgeon needs a lot of advance notice to change their schedule around appearing in front of a committee. So in our opinion, and we do have hundreds of case studies of successful liposuction where it has truly transformed patients' lives, we would have been a lot happier if they'd reached that decision or reached us a decision having consulted many more surgical experts. So we are encouraged that they're prepared to review their decision when more evidence comes up. But the decision means we can't provide that information in the UK. We are now dependent on overseas surgeons and research. At this stage, I want to bring in Marie.

This is not her real name. We are calling her Marie for today. She has lipoedema herself. Listening to what Nisa says and what you've been hearing from Shari, tell us a bit more about how you've been impacted by the change in these rules. It's absolutely devastating, not just physically, but emotionally and mentally. Being stopped in the middle of a journey, you know, to get my quality of life back. And for many others also, how can they do that? You know, I've looked and researched when I was diagnosed in 2019 after being dismissed and, you know, disregarded by my GP, who eventually kicked me out of my practice.

You know, I get a diagnosis. I researched and researched for the best option. I was told I'd be suitable candidate for liposuction. And, you know, that's what I wanted to go ahead with. Being faced with being told, you know, I could end up in a wheelchair in a several years time was not an option for me. And when you say you were a suitable candidate, that you were told you were a suitable candidate for liposuction, who gave you that guidance? That was St. George's Hospital, who have been massively supportive and, you know outstanding you know for me I've had many surgeries and when I choose if I have to go into on the NHS which are fantastic to have surgery I don't get to choose my surgeon I don't know what experience they've got or what expertise you know I've chose the

surgeon I went with for their expertise their knowledge you, you know, their commitment to performing these things. And the stages I've had so far, I've had three, the actual impact that has had on my life so far has been amazing. You know, to be able to lift up a hairdryer and actually do it myself without relying on my family to do them just the basics, you know. But can I interject there, Maria? When you hear from from nice that they feel

that they need to do a larger more wider more in-depth assessment about the safety of this do you not welcome the extra caution if it is a matter of your health going forward you know with every surgery there is risk um you know we sign ourselves the forms to say we accept that risk and we know what they are now i fully understand this is this is all to do with you know the nhs is what their report's about they looked at eight studies how can eight studies out of hundreds and hundreds of women that have had surgeries you know you look at the pros and cons. The pros massively outweigh. I'm now being subjected to continuous pain. The chance that this will continue to progress in the areas that have not been treated because we don't know how long these studies are going to take. The studies where they're being done in Germany, they're still operating.

Why? I made that decision. I'm not, you know, we've had to fund this ourselves. Why? What right have they got to take that away from me and stop my journey it's preventing me from having all the surgeries which i need because i can't continue with this journey you know the pain i can certainly hear marie what a frustrating process it has been for you and it's clearly a condition that is

impacting your life on a day-to-day basis we do thank you for coming on the program and sharing your story a nice spokesperson said we would like to recommend treatments that are safe and effective for this condition but we cannot compromise on safety the committee hopes that a randomized controlled trial currently taking place in germany could provide the high quality evidence they need to revise their recommendation on this procedure once the study has reported its findings, we will review our guidance. And we two here at Women's Hour will revisit this story when we have those findings.

Our thanks also to Shari Fetzer, the chair of Lipoedema UK. Someone's got in touch with us, Val, who also has stage 3 lipoedema and basically says it has changed his life. And due to the NICE guidelines, all surgeries now are being suspended. I do not know what to do without surgery. I face early immobility and I will be a costly burden on the NHS and social care. So clearly a worry for some of our listeners who are listening to the programme right now.

Lots of you have been in touch about Ryan's story as well. The story about his divorce proceedings. Adam writes, I'm going through exactly the same thing. I'm a little behind, but wow, Ryan speaks so much sense. Fair play to him and the interviewer. And this one who says,

the father talking right now reminds me so much of the time in the experience my husband suffered after the divorce of his previous wife. I so feel for him. I take my hat off to him. It is so nice to know that you're not the only one. And I hope he feels that as well.

What a man. And just a few seconds to bring you some of the many comments we've had on kindness. Do you get kinder as you get older? This person has been in touch. Jas says, I've always been kind, generous and jolly as I had a great life. But in my 60s, I'm now more discerning as I see that my kindness has been taken for granted. I think the best thing we can do is show kindness to ourselves first. Too many women are brainwashed into putting men first.

That from Jess in Brighton. Thank you to all of you who have been in touch, commenting on all the stories that we have been bringing you on the programme. Please do continue that conversation at BBC Woman's Hour online. Thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Woman's Hour over at BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.