Woman's Hour - Bonus episode: Raye in conversation with BBC 100 Women

Episode Date: December 3, 2024

In this episode, Woman's Hour's Nuala McGovern introduces a bonus podcast in collaboration with BBC 100 Women. It’s an interview with the award-winning singer-songwriter Raye, who has been named as one of the people on this year's BBC 100 Women list, which celebrates 100 inspiring and influential women from around the world.Raye speaks to BBC 100 Women’s Kirsty Grant about her huge success, the abuse she says female artists get for doing well, and her dream of opening a jazz club.You can read more about the women on the BBC 100 Women list here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b086xrtd

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and today we're bringing you a bonus podcast episode in collaboration with BBC 100 Women. It's an interview with the award-winning singer-songwriter Ray, who's been named as one of the people on this year's BBC 100 Women list, which celebrates 100 inspiring and influential women from around the world. So here's Rae speaking to BBC 100 Women's Kirsty Grant about her huge success, the abuse she says female artists get for doing well, and her dream of opening a jazz club.

Female artists who are put on these huge, huge pedestals scares the living daylights out of me, honestly. Singer-songwriter Rae has had the kind of year other artists can only dream of. After leaving her label and going independent, she's won six Brit Awards. I can only describe it as a miracle. And is the first woman to have won

Songwriter of the Year. Her debut studio album, My 21st Century Blues, was a critical and commercial hit and it cemented her as one of the top artists in the game right now. BBC 100 Women spoke to her about the pressures of social media, being a woman in the industry and going independent. I met him at the bar, I was 12 or something, I ordered two more wines, because tonight I want it. A little context if you care to listen, I find myself in a position. Ray, hi.

Hello. Thank you for sitting down with 100 Women. How are you doing today? Yeah, I'm good. I woke up maybe like an hour and a half ago, I'm not going to lie. You know, just adjusting to a new day. Yeah. So, let's reflect on your year a bit. One of the standout moments for you probably was the Brit Awards where you broke a lot of records. You won six out of the seven categories you were nominated for. You were the first female songwriter to win Best Songwriter. How did that feel?

I've recorded it on the telly. I still haven't watched it back. So I'm looking forward to like I finished work on the 12th of December when I finish I'm gonna like sit down and like watch it but it was just kind of very surreal out-of-body experience and it kept getting more and more like what I was it was so disorientating and amazing it was yeah for me my grandma is everything to me she moved from Ghana when I was born to like take care of me while my parents worked full-time so that's like my you know second mother in a way she's just everything so I think for how much love and sacrifice she poured into me into my childhood into all my sister's lives as well getting to like honour her in that way you know was just was just, yeah, money can't buy that. It was just, yeah, I'll never forget that night. So it was a huge year for you. Also a huge year for women in music, I would say. Like a lot of the top charts at the moment are filled by women, like Chapel Rose, Sabrina Carpenter, new names coming through.

How does that feel? Why do you think this is happening now? Women are great I don't know I think I think it's a beautiful time in a way how music is discovered and consumed now you know I think the people decide I think um the gatekeepers that really used to be able to control what people were exposed to and and got to discover it's changed now because of social media and all of this stuff. So I think it's a really beautiful thing in that great art is finding its way to the surface. Also, a song never dies. It can come to the surface at any time. I mean, it's kind of like a new time.

And I guess people are seeing these incredible women doing incredible things and being like, this slaps. Like, let's share it let me listen to it it's great so proud of the girls it kind of levels the playing field as well like you said because the the people get to decide what does well the people yeah people decide do you know what I mean I think there's a real thing you can get kind of wrapped up into which you know labels can't help but encourage like find the hit find the hit find the hit find the hit find it you know and it's like what even is that and then before long you're making music not for

you, you're making it to try and chase those, what those people want, you know, and you lose your way. But I think it's a beautiful thing that when you're an artist making art that you're proud of and you're like yeah this is me, like this feels, I love this, this is right, this is from me, you know, it's a great feeling, yeah. You've spoken a bit before about from me, you know, it's a great feeling, yeah. You've spoken a bit before about that and how, you know, you signed to Polydor in 2014? Yeah. Polydor Records?

Yeah. And you spoke a bit about how you felt you kind of had to fit this certain mould or you felt they were pushing you in a direction. What do you think they were trying to aim for with that? Well I think kind of there's like a formula of like dance pop whereas like a woman making dance music you would need to be attached to like a DJ and then then you would have I think the idea was I'd have some hits of DJs then I can swap the names around it could be me featuring a DJ and then all of a sudden

I'll be allowed to release a song without a DJ. I think that was the formula they were trying to go for with me. And how did you feel when that was kind of put onto you? Well I just got on with it didn't I? Yeah, I think, yeah it's hard to summarise seven years in like one question, do you know what I mean? Because it was a wild rollercoaster of a journey but you know, yeah I think the position I'm in now and I think having gone through everything I went through then you know I've learned so much about what I'll never ever put myself through again do you know what I mean and I think

integrity to your art and like loving it and believing in it is paramount. And I can't say there's any worse feeling than breaking yourself to sell a record that disgusts you, that sucks. Do you know what I mean? And when it gets to that, the worst of times, I wish that I'm not an artist. It's a horrible feeling. So you've released songs that you've listened to

and been like, I don't like it. Like, that's an understatement, yeah. Really? Yeah. I was selling the thing, doing interviews, like, all right, tell us about your newement. Really? Yeah. Yeah. So how does it... I was selling the thing, doing interviews like, alright, tell us about your new song. And I'm like, yeah, blah, blah, blah.

And you're there like, I hate this. This is horrible. So it must feel amazing, your album that came out this year, My 21st Century Blues, not often does a debut album go to number two on the charts. That must have felt really good when it's music that you love. Oh yeah, it was incredible and I think also for me having that validation of my album being something like you know the album of the awards at the Brit was so mind-blowing to me while I was just bawling my eyes out was because you know it was just a validation of, you know,

this album does matter to some people, you know, and it was just like, wow. And that's all I ever really wanted, to make albums that some people care about. You know what I mean? Sorry about that. Lots of people in and out. Things come in and out of this house.

I have no idea what's going on. As well as eight top 20 singles and an impressive six billion Spotify streams, Rae has added a record-breaking three Grammy nominations to her list of achievements this year, including Best New Artist and Songwriter of the Year, making her the first artist ever to be nominated for both categories in the same year. I found out on the telly, on the YouTube thing. I'm still trying to wrap my head around life right now. But despite smashing so many records,

she still feels like her progression in the music industry is far from guaranteed. I want to read you back a quote that you said at the Brits in your acceptance speech. You said, The artist I was three years ago would not believe I'm in control. I'm my own boss. Why would you have not believed that? And what kind of made you finally believe you could be your own boss? Years ago, three years ago from that point was just

sitting in the opposite kind of seat that I am now, you know, and I think I think me specifically I'm just the kind of like to be in control of my life like that's a nice thing, you know and something that when you're, when you don't have that it's all you really know does that make sense yeah I don't know was there any moment you can pinpoint where you were like I'm not doing this anymore I want to do it you know well yeah that was the breaking point that I hit that I've spoke quite a lot about and over the last or whenever it happened you know I kind of got to the point where I was like ready to just be like, I'll just be a songwriter because I think you have to be willing to take that risk the way that I was just so frustrated and spoke out about what I'd kind of been experiencing that I, yeah, you have to

just be prepared to know that your life is in the contract is in a contract and that's in the hands of people that are going to decide they have permission to decide what they get to do with your life and choose and so yeah I just got to the point where I was like you know what um after seven years of this I'd rather be a writer than go through another year of this but I'm lucky that I managed to find my way out. Everything was fine. Did a lot of therapy. And then, you know, set about understanding and trying to get my head around what being in control of

and in charge of my career actually looked like. Do you think you found that now? I think so. Yeah. Yeah. So if you could change one thing about the music industry right now, what would it be? Probably the fact that songwriters don't get paid royalty points and that needs to start being normalised and should just be mandatory.

Yeah, I'd change that. I wanted to talk about song lengths because I think we've heard a lot about recently is TikTok's impact on the music industry and how songs have to be TikTok viable to be successful. A lot of new artists have said they felt the pressure to keep their songs really short and have that like you know that sound that goes viral. I feel like I've seen a lot of your songs very organically on TikTok like whether it's people clipping up your performances or escapism went like insanely viral. Have you not felt that pressure because one

of your latest songs Genesis is seven there. Have you not felt that pressure? Because one of your latest songs, Genesis, is seven minutes long. You've not felt that pressure then to kind of compact your songs and make them able to go viral, I guess? Truly like chasing virality or whatever is just another kind of find the hit, find the hit kind of energy, which is a pressure that is so horrible and also i just believe it's kind of one of those things you can't control um so i think i try to just make sure that i'm not making music in that mindset i think the goal has to be for me to

make something great that i think is great by my own standards you know and then if anyone else thinks it's great too that's great and if someone likes 15 seconds of it and god bless I have like three like TikTok stan accounts that like work as if they're on a payroll like I want to find out who these people are and just hug them and give them free tickets to every show because these people like cut up my things, speed up the audio, slow it down, like really are like doing God's work for me, you know? But that's what I mean.

It's kind of a, it's not something I can control or force. So I think the worst thing would be for me trying to make music specifically for someone to find 15 seconds and love it i think that's not i mean yeah i need to i want to make four minutes and love every second of it you know and then if that translates that's great but i just think it's an unhealthy mindset to get into yeah i mean the most random things go viral on tiktok you can't predict what you absolutely can't yeah and you know that's yeah the people just choose um in your recent

song environmental anxiety you touch on a lot of topics uh you speak about climate change british politics social media drug use are these all things that are worrying you what worries you the most at the moment these are all things that i think i'm worried about i think a lot of us are worried about and there are also things that are so overwhelmingly huge that no one person can really make a difference. It has to come from people with actually the power to make these kind of changes, you know? Are you just singing out of frustration then, would you say?

Or do you have an aim to change anything by writing about them? Well, I think music is that way that you can express feelings and worries and anxieties and in a way that's kind of how I use my voice if I have one, do you know what I mean? It also reminded me of this article I actually saw on the BBC the other day, it's off topic, but it was about fertility rates and how people just aren't having babies anymore because they're so concerned about... Everything's so expensive now, like I'm sorry if you was trying to have kids you know how expensive it is to have a kid like one of my best friend is a mother and I'm like this is crazy so I don't you know my car got stolen the other day and you know what like I'm so upset about my books in the back but I get it it's

hard times out here which I know what I mean so I understand well another thing you wrote about so some of your lyrics from Environmental Anxiety also little girls aren't safe at home she's scrolling up and down her phone she hates her life she hates herself and she's 12 years old yeah where did those lyrics come from I'm the oldest sister of three sisters so I my you know my sisters are my little girls and I'm so proud of them and very protective of them do you know what I mean and I think you can just see you know my sisters are my little girls and I'm so proud of them and very protective of them I mean and I think you can just see you know I think for our generation or whatever we had like Facebook and that stuff was introduced when we was I was in year seven

year eight so I was like 11 12 and I wasn't even allowed a Facebook account I made a Facebook account babe I made a Facebook account on my friend with my friend's name and she doesn't know the email so it's still out there I'm not even telling you the name but there are some awful pictures of me do you know who will find it your tiktok fans they will and I'm praying they don't I feel like they won't they can't because the name is so random okay but yeah that's so I need to get that off the internet ASAP I've messaged Facebook and everything they're like without the email there's nothing we can do I'm like guys like we need to get this off the internet asap I've messaged Facebook and everything they're like without the email there's nothing we can do I'm like guys like we need to get this off the internet um what my point in saying that is it's something that was new and something that was like whoa what's this you know

I mean like I remember seeing the iPhone 3G for the first time being like whoa like this is crazy technology you know and yeah like kids are growing up with you know I remember my baby sister was playing the iPad game this game she was like she couldn't even talk and she was she was slaying the thing down I was like how is this you know so technology and that stimulation of like you know you look at an iPad why so people who develop these apps and these software's explaining how you know you you turn on the phone you get dopamine you get a message and it's like, you know, and it's this whole psychological thing. And, you know, it really worries me, obviously, for the future of how addictive these things are for the future generation, how they're going to be able to put them down and go for a walk in the trees and like find balance and not needing to find validation from how many messages you have

or how many likes you have which for someone like me who this is i would i didn't grow up with this in my childhood you know i mean i just really struggle with that thing i don't even have i don't even allow myself access to my social media accounts you know you one of your lyrics also is about um facetune and like ring lights and things yeah editing photos basically yeah is that why you stopped using your social media or was it just general pressures i think it's the whole thing i don't think it's good for anyone to be on there for for a long period of time i think you start to like compare yourself, resent yourself, analyse yourself, pick yourself apart. And that's just not a nice feeling.

Yeah, but I think there's a lot of us, you know, going on to film yourself for a story or a selfie video or whatever, that we're all like, oh, I'll prefer to put a filter on my face and just look at what my face looks like. Yeah. And that's just the world we live in now, do you know what I mean that's I think a lot of us have even become a bit numb to the fact that we're just doing that we've spoken a bit about like the topics that you cover in your songs and they're quite personal personal stuff that you're writing about yeah who do you go to when

you first write these lyrics like who's the first to hear them or read them probably my dad really yeah he's my manager and we talk about all of these things together. And do you talk through like where you got the lyric from or? Nah, it's never that deep. He'll just analyse it as a song, do you know what I mean? So he'll be like, oh I like this song. Yeah, it's never like, how are you feeling about this? I tend to also just keep a lot of the things I write to myself until I'm ready to share them.

And I chip away at stuff over time so yeah but probably my dad yeah. Do you ever worry about oversharing and thinking like I shouldn't have spoken about that and now it's out there forever? I feel like I'm a bit far gone yeah I feel like you know I think as artists we have a choice as writers and musicians we have a choice about what what the intention is behind your art, you know, do you wanna create something to make someone feel good, or, you know, do you wanna create something from a raw and honest place? That's not something that you have to do,

it's not something that, you know, is make or break, but I think it's the artist that I chose to be, and I think that comes with its pros and cons. But I think maybe it's kind of a bit how I'm like as a human being. Yeah. If I'm going to meet a guy at the pub or bump into someone and be like, hey, how you doing? And we get to know each other, I'm kind of like blah, blah, blah, blah.

Here's my wife. Yeah. So I guess that translates to my songs. Being herself has been the defining feature of Ray's journey so far. How are you feeling, Ray? Great. No! Why did I wink at the camera?

And while she still has career dreams, including breaking the US and possibly opening a jazz bar in London, she's also worried about the challenges that level of fame brings. So the theme of this year's BBC 100 Women is resilience. If you have a look back at your career and your life, what do you think you've learned about resilience over the course of your career? You know, difficult times in your life where you've had to just overcome stuff. I think resilience is the key word when pursuing a career in music. You just have to have bags of it.

Yeah, I think, you know, also allowing yourself to feel, mourn, be upset, feel how you feel, but then bounce back. You know, there's a lot of times you could find yourself being like, well, after this experience or this or that I'm gonna give up but it's about just picking yourself back up and going for it you know but yeah I think yeah I think artists have to have especially women I think you have to have a lot of that yeah I'm smiling because it's just like you know yeah you have to be tough and get on with it you know and I think often for women as well because I think the standard of how you have to carry yourself and be is so different for women and men so I think on top of that resilience being polite being kind and being a good person even if you're going through it you know finding it within yourself to put

what you're going through there and just you know get on with it, you know, finding it within yourself to put what you're going through there and just, you know, get on with it. Do you feel like you've had to kind of prove yourself more as a woman then in the industry or just be held to a higher standard of like emotion? Yeah, I mean, there's definitely a double standard, I'd say. If a guy was to do something, you know, they're having a bad day and they push the paparazzi back or whatever I'd be like you know oh he was having a hard day do you know what I mean does that like stop you sometimes from doing or saying things and you're like oh girl it might go viral I might

be slandered honestly I don't I'm really at such a I'm at a place where it's like I've achieved some insane things but I'm still like relatively new what undiscovered in terms of like the world do you know what I mean so where it's like these these artists and female artists who are put on these huge huge pedestals scares the living daylights out of me honestly like I actually am like there are times where you're like do you want to be I still have big dreams but it's like do I even want to? It's really scary I think, I think it's actually quite scary. So it puts you off kind of reaching those levels?

Oh yeah, it's terrifying. What is it you're scared of then? Just when that level of judgment just like becomes like so micro and you just have to always be this perfect thing or this well-spoken, polite, good person. Do you know what I mean? All the time, which no human is. That's just not real life. Do you know what I mean?

Just being judged on that scale terrifies me. We've obviously heard some awful stories recently, like the P. Diddy case where he's been charged with sex trafficking. It's a topic you've touched on in your music as well, sort of abuse of power in the music industry. What do you think needs to be done to make sure women particularly stay safe? I mean, that's a huge question. I don't have the answers for that,

but I think it's clear that nothing should be done from... Like, it's really sad that one solution may be that as a woman you have to be squatted up or have people with you and be protected and have accountability and make sure like do you think it often falls to women then to kind of solve that problem well yeah right yeah I'd say right now yeah um I think yeah I think the music industry is still a very guarded and protected place. I think it's a lot of things that aren't right that happen and are happening. And yeah, I think you just hope that it will stop happening. So the government did a report into misogyny in music.

I'm just going to read you the conclusion of their report which came out in January 2024 it says women have significant additional barriers to pass to get a foothold in the music industry and must navigate acts of passive aggression ridicule and misogyny to have a sustainable career what do you make of that is that would that sum up how you feel I think especially as like a new artist when you're beginning your career and you're being put in all these rooms with you know most most of the time you'll be the only woman inside of the rooms you know yeah you're completely like it it really became a thing I remember consciously of like this kind of uh I need to prove myself you're gonna kind of worthy before I'm like taken seriously I mean you kind of feel like that in every room you kind of walk into

you know and and maybe you see this kind of in in your line of work where you kind of you know if you're walking a room and no one knows who you are or what you're about or whatever, that you're like, right, no one's taking me seriously right now. I know that you're just treated a certain way. And my thing was, I developed this. And I was 14 when I started going around and doing sessions. And I developed this thing. I was still a kid at the time. So part of me was like, is it because I'm young?

Well, you go in a room and you're like, OK, I need to make everyone in this room respect me before I can leave and I'm going to do that by working as hard as I can to be lovely get on the mic do some insane freestyles you know by my standard that I can achieve write some amazing lyrics be a vibe la la la la and then by the end of the session if I feel like hopefully I've achieved that then I'm like I can give myself peace to like leave and feel like okay cool I've done good work for the day but it's never the mindset of getting in there and making a great song at the time it was like get in there and just do enough so that everyone like respects me as a musician and as a you know as an artist so you're like overworking to just to get to the baseline of respect. And then once you're there you're like okay now let's make a great song. Yeah but getting that

every time was a real thing you know and I think yeah the journey of becoming when you're new and you're up and coming or you know when you're trying it out or you're diving into that world you experience that like over time. Well we've already just had an album from you, you've written about all sorts of things in that, what can we expect next from you? Next I need time to make a second album. I feel like in my head the bar is really high, it's gonna take a long time. You've got a lot of records to smash.

Girl, I'm like, for this overwhelming, amazing reaction to my first body of work, but the bar is like, yeah. So in a long way in the future, actually, I was thinking about this, I really would love to open a jazz club, you know, in South London and be there five days a week and just are you performing there yeah maybe like I'll sing like once a week nice do you know what I mean I like it but I'd host it and there'll be the best cats in town come down and just play and it would just be thriving and be great so I think Ronnie's is so beautiful and so important and we have like loads of little nice jazz venues but I think we need like a South London, like yeah, I would love to do that in the future

but yeah, I need to make a couple more albums first, build my repertoire a bit more like, you know, yeah, but I would really love that, yeah. Don't know if I told you that but yeah. I like it. Future dream. I'll be there. I'll be there. Ray, thank you so much for speaking to 100 Women.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

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