Woman's Hour - Bonus podcast: The Conversation 100 Women

Episode Date: November 29, 2020

Celebrating the BBC 100 Women list 2020 Kim Chakanetsa and a panel of inspirational and influential women discuss whether some changes made because of Covid-19 restrictions could be seen as positive. They answer questions about bringing communities together, supporting lonely people and increasing flexibility for more inclusive employment. Shani Dhanda is an award-winning disability specialist and social entrepreneur from the UK. She founded the Asian Woman Festival and Asian Disability Network. The pandemic has proved that flexible and home working is viable, and she wants to make sure our new online solutions are here to stay so that the world remains accessible to us all.Karen Dolva has been seeking technological solutions to involuntary loneliness since 2015. A co-founder of No Isolation based in Norway, she’s helped develop a telepresence robot for children with long-term illness, and KOMP, a one-button screen for seniors. With reports from around the world of people feeling increasingly isolated because of Covid restrictions – should tech like this be used more widely?Yvonne Aki-Sawyerr, became Mayor of Freetown, Sierra Leone in 2018 with an inclusive vision of the city's renewal and a three-year plan to "Transform Freetown" and tackle environmental degradation and facilitating the creation of jobs in the tourism sector. #FreetownTheTreeTown was launched this January and already over 450,000 seedlings have been to address flooding, soil erosion and water shortages faced by the city. She says we can turn frustration and dissatisfaction into positive change. What can we learn from such an approach post-Covid?Aditi Mittal is India’s best known female stand-up comedian, who is finding new ways to perform safely and online. She also hosts the Women in Labour podcast, and hopes that the increased time at home for many male workers in India has shone a light on the amount of time required to run a household, something that has always been a big barrier to the female workforce.Produced by Jane Thurlow and Caitlin SneddonImage from left: Aditi Mittal (credit Nanak Bhatia), Shani Dhanda (courtesy Shani Dhanda), Yvonne Aki-Sawyerr (credit TJ Bade) Karen Dolva (credit No Isolation)

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Hi, it's Jane Garvey here. I thought you might be interested in this podcast from the Conversation team on the BBC World Service. It's part of the BBC 100 Women's season. In it, Kim Chakanetza talks to some of the most inspiring and influential women from all over the world about how to build a brighter future after COVID-19. Hello and welcome to a special edition of The Conversation. I'm Kim Chakanetza and today we are celebrating the BBC 100 Women lists, which every year names 100 influential and inspirational women from around the world and shares their stories. With me are a panel of women

who through their creativity, tenacity and optimism are making a difference in their own way. These are four women who want to turn the COVID-19 pandemic into an opportunity to be seized, a chance to re-examine the way we live and address issues such as how can we bring communities together, how better can we support lonely people and what can be done to make employment more flexible and inclusive? Those are some of the questions I'll be asking them with the help of my on-screen audience, which includes some of our former guests on the programme, who in true 2020 style are joining me remotely. But first, let me introduce our four panellists. First up is Shani Danda, an award-winning

disability specialist and social entrepreneur from the UK. Shani founded the Asian Women Festival and Asian Disability Network and has been campaigning to make society more inclusive. You'll hear from her how the pandemic could prompt a shift in the working lives of disabled people. Joining us from Sierra Leone is the mayor of the capital Freetown, Yvonne Akisoya. Yvonne has been mayor since 2018 and in that time has poured her energy into transforming the city and fighting climate change. Yvonne is an action woman, someone who believes in turning frustration and dissatisfaction into a positive, a quality that has served her well as she helps her city navigate the pandemic. The third member of our panel joins us from Norway. She is Karen Dolver.

And Karen has, since 2015, been on a fascinating mission to seek technological solutions to involuntary loneliness. We'll definitely hear more about some of the creative solutions she has come up with. And Karen is the CEO and co-founder of No Isolation. Congratulations to the three of you for your place on the BBC 100 Women list. And our fourth and final panel member is Aditi Mittal, one of India's best-known female stand-up comedians. When she is not bringing her own brand of irreverent humour to comedy venues, she uses it as a way to shine a light on the lack of women in India's workforce through her podcast, Women in Labour. Welcome to you all. Thank you. Thank you. Thank

you. Now, I'd like to start with a quick lightning round question. What have you done because of lockdown that you wouldn't have done otherwise? And it could be as simple as being able to spend more time with your family or acquiring a new hobby. Shani, have you managed to learn a new language? What have you done? I haven't learned any language, but I have completed a jigsaw puzzle that I would never have done previous. I would just not have had the time. And I've also saved money, you know, working from home, working remotely. It's just, yeah, helped me save loads of money, which is great. Fantastic. Now, Yvonne, as a busy mayor, I suspect you haven't had much downtime, but were you able to do anything you wouldn't normally do?

There was something, family time. So I have a sister in Canada, a sister in the US, one sister here, and my parents are here as well, here in Bingtown. And it's been actually really interesting because you don't normally get together, but we've started doing Zoom family get togethers, bringing us together. So it has been a pleasant addition to our lives. Fantastic. Aditi, have you cracked the spine of some book which has been at your bedside for months, years? What have you done? You know, one, I got a Kindle. Secondly, I got a dog. Karen, what about you?

What have you managed to do? I actually cannot come up with a single thing that I've done very differently. I'm traveling a lot less, meaning that I've made more food. I'm going to have to be boring. I'm making more food. That's it.

That's not boring. Well, from the various screens and backgrounds, I think we're all connecting from our homes, except for Yvonne, because I can see some flags in the background. So, Yvonne, are you in your office there? I am in my office. Lockdown, COVID has not changed my work life. It's gotten as busy, more busy. I can imagine. But that was one of the big changes for many of us. People were suddenly having to work from home. And I want to start with a question about this from the audience. And this question is from Itua Iyoha in Nigeria. Itua, you've been working from home since March. How have you found it?

Yes, yes, I have. So for context, I work with a management consulting firm in Lagos in Nigeria. So the transition to working from home was a bit bumpy for me because the work I do is very collaborative. I need to constantly interact with my team members and with my clients. So it was really mentally exhausting just going from one video conference call to the next for hours and hours on end, no face-to-face human interaction. But then on the flip side, I had a similar experience to other people who are on the panel, which is that I was able to save some time and money, not having to commute to the office every single day. And funny enough, on that point about saving money, I've heard of this school of thought that says that people who work from

home should actually pay for the privilege of doing that. So I read about this Deutsche Bank research, which says that people working from home should pay an additional 5% income tax, which would then be used to subsidize workers that don't have the option of doing so. So personally, I think that would be a terrible idea because the government could be trying to encourage people to work from home because it reduces pressure on public transportation services, for example. So I'm very curious about what the panel thinks. Has working from home been a net positive overall? And could a tax on remote work be a good idea?

Karen, I'll start with you. How has it been for you working from home? Absolutely terrible, except for the first two weeks the first two weeks in march i just got everything done it felt like the greatest freedom to just sit and concentrate and no uh no one bothering me and then uh yeah fatigue i have a lot of collaborative work as well and it's been devastating not to be able to meet up with people and and i miss it a lot. But yeah, at the same time, I agree that the flexibility and being able to work from home a lot more than we were used to

before the pandemic is something that's definitely here to stay. Well, Shona, you've been campaigning for people to have the ability to work from home for some time now. So suddenly it's come into place overnight. What do you think of this idea of income tax of people paying extra? I think it's an awful idea. And yet again, it's going to affect the people that need that flexibility the most, i.e. disabled workers, parents, carers. And not to say that it's only a certain group of people that want flexible working, we all do. And I think it's been proven now over the last year that it can be

very productive as well to work from home. And interestingly, I shared this story on LinkedIn, and it's been one of the most commented posts this year. People are like, this is an awful idea. Why would someone want to introduce this? So it's something that people feel very passionately about. But I think generally, now we've all had a taste of what it's like to work remotely and to work from home those of us that were campaigning for it before the pandemic are a bit relieved that people can now see the benefits and have trialed it at least. Aditi what does working from home look like for you as a stand-up comedian? Depressing. You know, because so much of our job is very much based on being in the same room as someone. Stand-up is when you go, you say something stupid and then people laugh.

And then you take that after and then you say something stupider. You know, out of like, it's that give and take of energy. And when that energy is missing, it feels like a huge element of what you do and why you love doing it just goes away. And it's also, I mean, depressing to live with your own thoughts. I did not realize I was a semi-despicable personality till this happened. I was like, ew, that voice in my head, who is she? Well, Yvonne, the option of working from home is not one afforded to everyone. And I can imagine in Freetown that there is a significant amount of the population that need to be out and about to make an income.

For example, if you're a market trader. So how have you managed to help people strike that balance between saving lives and livelihoods? Thanks, Kim. I think it's really important to just build on what you just said, just to highlight that. There's a big debate around people having the option to work from home, but there's also the reality of the many, many people for whom that can never be an option. Essential workers, for example, who during the pandemic, the healthcare workers, sanitation workers, and as you've said, Kim, in a country such as ours, where 60% of the economy is in the informal sector,

working from home, if you're a market trader, an cattle rider is simply not an option. It comes back to why was there a need to stay at home, right? If the case is for safety, then what we're doing is trying to make those places where people are having to go to work more safe. I'll take the markets, for example. We've been doing some work with improving market conditions, making sure there's water there, providing masks for women who are going to be there because they have no choice. And I guess I want to come back to you, Itua. Overall for you, would you say that the benefits of working from home have outweighed the stresses, the negatives?

Could you imagine doing it permanently, Itua? Yes, sure. I think I could actually. I think what I would expect, though, from my employer is putting more things in place to enable people to do this long term. But on the flip side, I'd want to balance it out with the option of coming into the office maybe two or three times a week. Yeah. Just to have that human interaction, which is so important for what I do. Absolutely.

Well, thank you, Tua. And she's absolutely right. That human interaction is what I miss most about not being able to turn to a colleague and chat about your weekend or discuss whatever program you're watching. And that can really lead to people feeling lonely. And loneliness is a real issue, particularly among the elderly. But it also seems increasingly to be an issue for people in their late teens and early 20s. That's according to the UK's Mental Health Foundation. And Karen, I want to bring you in here because loneliness is something you've been trying to combat long before the pandemic. What led you to decide to tackle loneliness?

What got us started, my co-founders and I was a friend of mine who'd worked as a nurse at a children's ward. And she was mentioning how these kids were faring. And it's no surprise to anyone that if you are nine years old and you have cancer, it's not going to be a joy ride. But what struck me was how she talked about about them they were only speaking to their parents they were so bored and then i spoke to what became my co-founders marius and matthias about this and we we couldn't really grasp why these kids weren't socially connected like they have ipads they have computers they have phones they have everything like why should a hospital bed be be a barrier to them at all and then we started doing some research and that became point of no return because none of the tools that these kids had actually enabled them to participate. The school wasn't rigged for them to attend through technology.

Nothing was really there to support them catching up with these day-to-day events. Like, they had ways to look, but not to be there. So we ended up making a telepresence robot for kids specifically, so that they can remote control their robot from their sickbed and be in class and talk to their friends and hear everyone and come out in the schoolyard during break and just be there. And I think that's exactly the type of flexibility that Shani pointed out as well. Like we need to make this infrastructure work

so that when you cannot go there physically, you shouldn't be kept from doing so. Yeah. I think all too often we dismiss or overlook the effects of loneliness, but studies show that social isolation is linked to very serious health conditions. Karen, can you just tell us a bit about what some of those studies reveal? It's quite devastating what loneliness does to us, because if you don't know that you have someone to talk to or rely on, you go into the stress mode, and the stress mode becomes chronic over time. And it leaves you with what has been proved now to be 32% increased risk of having a stroke,

29% increased risk of having a heart attack. And yeah, I think it was almost a third more likely that you pass away earlier if you have been experiencing loneliness for larger parts of your life. Meaning that this is actually more dangerous than smoking. It's more dangerous than obesity. We need to talk to people. We need to know that we have people to rely on. It's definitely something that we should all be concerned with fixing. Well, another question from the audience now. This is from Jules Walker.

She's in the UK. Jules writes and podcasts about cycling. She's also a carer for her mother. Jules, let's hear your question, please. Thank you so much. Just in light of what the panel have been talking about in regards to loneliness and isolation, keeping active is something that I have found has been very good for me. Obviously, I come from a cycling background. That's what I enjoy doing. That's my whole life, my career, and also a space for me to get mental freedom and to break out and especially with what's been going on with with COVID-19 it's been really important to to stay outside and be active so my question to the the panel is as keeping active and being outside is vital for good mental health, how can we actually encourage that to continue?

Aditi, I'll come to you. Any thoughts on how to encourage people to stay active and continue to do so? I run a hashtag called Kasrat Hi Hasrat, which in Hindi translates to exercise is the only redemption. And I've been working out almost every morning at eight o'clock. I do

an Instagram live and I work out live. It also sort of feeds into my desperate need for attention as a performer and comedian. And I've also sort of, I made it a point to make it like, this is not about me getting skinny. This is about me just, you know, mentally sort of taking care of myself. Well, Shani, you were diagnosed with brittle bone disease as a child, and I understand you were often bed bound and isolated. So that must give you a unique perspective. What did you find helped you to deal with being isolated? Just everything that Karen was saying earlier about loneliness and isolation.

I could say that I experienced the exact same thing. You know, I would be in hospital for a minimum of six months every time I would break a bone. And my condition means that my bones would break without any trauma. And by the age of 14, I had broken my legs six times. So you can only imagine how much time away from school and my peers that meant. You know, I was very fortunate. I am part of the South Asian community. I have a huge family, so many cousins, and they've kind of replaced the fact that maybe at a younger age, I didn't have that sort of friend circle because I'd always be in

hospital. But I think that's definitely allowed me to be really comfortable in my own company. And I would say for the large part to be really comfortable in my own company. And I would say for the large part of 2020, I have been shielding. I didn't even go out for daily exercise. But I think exercise is so important. And I've bought a couple of things to help me keep active indoors. People are being really inspired to just open their kitchen cupboards and, you know, get tinned food and exercise with.

So I think it's really showing people how to be innovative and the importance of keeping active, really. Yvonne, I understand that you're focused on looking after the well-being of your city. But what about your own well-being? How do you make sure that you are doing OK? Well, I couldn't agree more with everybody about the importance of exercise, but agreeing doesn't mean you do it, right? Not at all. But having said that, I exercise for half an hour in the morning. So I just do spend time on my veranda before I go into the office. But during COVID, it did affect me because there was a lot of work. And then I'm one of these people, if my mind is like so, so distracted with work, I find it hard to concentrate. Like I start exercising and I'm going, no, I should be working.

I try to walk the talk. I do have a commitment. On a very serious note, we all should exercise. And I am committed. Like the politician serious note, we all should exercise and I am committed. Like the politician in you, we should all exercise. Well, Jules, thank you for your question. And now, just to remind you, you're listening to a special edition of The Conversation with me, Kim Chakanetza. And we're talking about how the pandemic is changing how we live and work with the mayor of Freetown, Sierra Leone's

capital, Yvonne Akisoya, the tech entrepreneur, Karen Dolver, the comedian, Arditi Mattel, and the disability campaigner, Shani Danda. Okay, let's take another question. This one is from Lauren Klein, an associate professor at Emory University in the US. Lauren, go ahead. Hi there. Thank you so much for taking my question. I work across the fields of data science and the humanities. And so what this means is that I think about how data can be used to answer questions about people and culture. And in particular, for me, I look at questions about women and non-binary folks. And recently, this has meant spending a lot of time looking at the data relating to COVID and how gender inequality shows up in the data or not, as the case may be. So, you know, one thing about the pandemic is that it's brought renewed awareness to how impact is not distributed equally across genders. have, on the one hand, men seeming to experience the physical effects of COVID more severely.

But then on the other, you have women bearing a disproportionate share of caregiving responsibilities, and sometimes as a result, leaving the workplace. Or you have women constituting the majority of frontline workers, so nursing home workers and home health aid physicians, as well as grocery and retail workers. So these women are disproportionately impacted by COVID, but not explicitly because of their gender, sort of indirectly. So my question is this, given the spotlight that the pandemic has drawn to these gender disparities, and I actually do think that it has, is there a possibility that we will move forward with an increased awareness of the

relationship between gender and health, and in particular, how structural inequality, as opposed to outright or explicit discrimination, is often at the root of the disparities faced by women and non-binary folks? Yvonne, this one's for you. Lauren, the timing of this question couldn't be better because there's a recognition that what you're saying is absolutely true. I think the statistics I was looking at yesterday was that the gender parity pay gap, the rate at which it's going now, it will now take 257 years for women and men to get to the same point. And that this situation has actually been exacerbated by COVID. It's so much worse in 2020 than it was in 2019 for all the things you've said, Lauren.

And so from the perspective of a city mayor, female city mayor, I'm really committed to addressing this through policy. Because whether it's the healthcare workers, whether it's the people who are leading the policymaking, inevitably what you have is women doing the work and men making the decisions. And that's just what we face. What can we do through COVID? Perhaps one of the positives of this is that it's brought it to the fore. It's brought it to the fore at a time when we can do what we're doing. We can have six women

speaking to each other from around the world. We're being able to bring these conversations together, add what we're seeing in our different situations and plot and plan about how we're going to change this and plan and plot. We must policy level as a city mayor, but you're all residents of cities. So how do you put pressure? In your stand-up comedy, I'm sure you talk about this all the time, as an academic, with the work that you're both doing, with loneliness, with disability, it's about joining the dots. One thing that's absolutely certain is that we cannot allow this to just work itself out. It is not going to. We are going to need to take action

as women. We're not in silos as much as we may have been in the past. And this is definitely one of the upsides of technology, which has come to the front through COVID. Thank you, Yvonne. That was very comprehensive. And Aditi, you have a podcast about women in work, women in labour. What have been the benefits of men being in the home more in India, men spending more time at home? I mean, again, Lauren, this was such an incredible question. And one of the statistics that sort of made us do the podcast was that the participation of Indian women in the workforce was at 19 percent. That number was dismal, the second lowest in the world. And as of COVID, we had dropped to the lowest in the world. So the lowest participation of women

in the workplace, formal and informal. And ironically enough, there's a phrase that says a woman's work is never done. Then how is she not being counted in the workforce? Indian women's participation in the workforce is falling drastically because men are not helping out at home. The domestic responsibility of taking care of a full house and South Asian families live with multiple generations under the same roof, that responsibility tends to fall on the woman. And so for most women, it was so difficult to go to work full time

and then come back and take care of a family full-time. With working from home and COVID, I think it became obvious to a lot of men how much work their partners were putting in, into sort of the household, into bringing up the child. And they were able to see it with their own eyes. Like for the first six months of the pandemic, there was this long discussion about how men are helping out at home now. Okay. Now I'd like to talk about education. And to kick us off, we have a question from Uber Ali. Uber, let's hear your question. I would like to ask how the pandemic challenged the traditional ways of learning

and what are some of those positive elements that we could learn from this experience so we can keep it in order to enhance the future education of all countries and more specifically when it comes to the global south I have seen a lot of students struggling to join their classes because they don't have working Wi-Fi or computers. So what are the role of those developed countries to help those countries who are still struggling to catch up technologically with the rest of the world? So if a second pandemic happens, at least those countries in the global south will be ready to continue their education and they will be more prepared. So Yvonne, what has been the situation in Sierra Leone with regards to schools closing and opening? So schools did close. The situation has been quite different. They're currently back open. They lost a number of weeks of the term. The radio was the alternative. There was some online.

Certainly the university classes were being done online. But like Uber has said, in a context where so few children actually have access to computers, the cost of data, of internet is astronomically high. Even with radio, you know, yes, of course you can use a battery, but, you know, you've got blackouts. Education has been a casualty of the pandemic. Coming back to the loneliness point, the pandemic has, in my view, because I know there have been some positives, but face-to-face class time, interaction with your peers, I don't think there's anything that can really ever replace that. You know, inevitably, who is going to be affected by these girls? When it comes to the pandemic in our parts of the world, when the schools close, one of the things that we saw, which we saw during

Ebola again, was the increase in the number of girls who become pregnant because they're more vulnerable when they're at home. And this is happening, I know, not just in Sierra Leone, but in other parts of the world as well. Karen, the focus of some of your work has been connecting children who have to spend time away from school. How is the response to this pandemic informing that? I think we've now touched upon all the devastating sides of not being able to go to school. So I can touch upon one of the positive sides

of one of the effects that we've seen that I think will prove to positively change a lot of lives for a long time to come. And that's the schools that are using Google Hangouts or Zoom to have online classes during the close down, have seen a lot of pupils pop back up who haven't been attending school for a long period of time. And I'm especially talking about pupils with social anxiety, pupils with severe eating disorders, pupils who are just finding it extremely difficult to be in a noisy classroom, who might have chronic fatigue.

And they are all of a sudden attending at the same level as everyone else over Internet. And I think the massive shock that was to the schools and the teachers seeing that these kids aren't lazy at all, the classroom's just not an option for them. That's made a lasting impact. So we're working with quite a few schools where headmasters and teachers are shocked of how many pupils have showed up for the digital learning, proving again that we need this infrastructure to be in place for those who need it. Shani, do you think the changes we're seeing could have a positive impact on disabled students in terms of them gaining good access to schools and universities? 100%. Many barriers that disabled people face are things to do with physical accessibility.

And even in the UK, we still have many educational buildings or buildings generally that just aren't accessible but not only the physical accessibility it's how things are being taught it's how you access information the fact that now lectures are being recorded and you can watch them back um it's gonna it's beneficial for not only disabled people or people that need flexibility for everybody because you know we all learn in different ways and we all absorb information in different ways and I am really excited actually I'm starting an MBA course in January and the first time I went to university I felt like I had to go to because I had to have a degree to fall back on because I couldn't even get a part-time job because I have a very

visible condition but now I have been out in the world and I've had you know 15 years of employment history behind me I'm so excited to now go back to education because it's different because I can access it remotely so it's something that I'm going to be, you know, experiencing firsthand. And I am really excited. Time now for another question. This one is from Ishtar Lakhani, who is also one of the BBC 100 women. Ishtar, congratulations for making the list. What's your question? Hi, thank you so much.

And thank you for the guests so far with such an interesting conversation. Well, my question is specifically around organizing and mobilizing. I work as an activist based in South Africa. And when the COVID pandemic hit South Africa, we had an amazing group of mainly public health specialists and artists and creatives out of the blue decide something big is coming and we're going to need to organize. And so they set up a network called Cape Town Together, which encouraged community action networks or CANs, otherwise known as. And so we started mobilizing really locally. And what happened was really interesting in my neighborhood in particular.

I live in a mixed income neighborhood, which has a lot of controversy specifically around gentrification and the fact that historically people that have lived in my neighborhood have been essentially forced out. And so there's usually quite a lot of tension where I live. But when it came to COVID response, we started organizing as a community in a way that has never happened before. You'll see people from, I live in an area called Woodstock, Upper Woodstock and Lower Woodstock, that kind of the good side of the train tracks and the bad side of the train tracks. We came together in a way that I don't think any issue around housing, around gender-based violence, around spatial inequality in Cape Town has brought us together in terms of looking after vulnerable people in our community. And I was wondering whether, number one, whether some of the panelists have experienced that kind of a really hopeful way of community mobilizing. And number two, what are their thoughts on going forward and how communities have really stepped up in this time of this pandemic and whether we see that as kind of optimism going forward?

Karen, what has been your experience in Norway? Have you seen a surge in community spirit a tiny bit that norwegians are notoriously shy and quiet people so we're and and everything is paid for by the government because we found a lot of oil back in the 70s so yeah i'd love to pass the question on to shani actually yeah i'm embarrassed of my own background no not at all it's just good to hear how different things are shiny over to you oh I think that's a really really great question and um I think on one hand COVID has been a leveler but then it hasn't been a leveler on the other hand to people that already faced inequality it's actually intensified their inequalities. And I think what this has done is made people realize the privileges that they had of freedom, going out,

you know, doing what you want to do to some sort of degree. And it's, I think it's made people more empathetic. It's made people, I I think realize that we're in it together and that everybody else's struggles are tied to one another regardless of if you're a really wealthy person or not or you have a big house or you don't um so I think that's that's what the impact of COVID has done from what I've seen I've always held a belief that the change that we need to see I don't think we're going to see from governments and charities anytime soon here in the UK anyway I can't speak for the rest of the world um so I think people are realizing now that it's the power of the

community and the power of us coming together and realizing that there's probably more that unites us than divides us that sort of mentality everyone saw the protests around black lives matter quite early on in in lockdown and I think that's one of the reasons why the world had time to stop and acknowledge it because majority of us were in lockdown um so that that was huge and I I don't think there's been anything quite like that, that has had such an impact, especially in the corporate space. For the first time, I have seen so many brands committing to being actively anti-racist, actually taking a stand on something like this, where they, you know, have never done before. I think that's been really, really interesting to see you know

may I add that India Indian democracy is in a very vulnerable place right now and as of December and January 2020 we were you know actively hitting the road in protests and with COVID I think what happened was everyone was stuck at home the protests sort of went on to another plane. So right now, even when we have virtual gatherings, we are sort of all coming together and educating ourselves a lot more than we would have, because a lot of that passion would have gone into like, let's get out on the road. And then it's almost been sort of a intellectualization of the protests on some level which I'm really hopeful for. Kim, can I just say a word on this question

of community mobilization? Please go ahead. Because I think you know similar to the experience of Ishtar in Cape Town, this really has in a way which is not dissimilar to what happened to us during the Ebola times, it really has brought communities together. I've mentioned a few times that the veracity of the outbreak has been different. But at the beginning, we had two lockdowns of three days each. And because of the needs of people, their inability to actually survive, you know, they live day to day. We saw people coming together in neighborhoods. We saw community cooking happening. I had all kinds of people coming and making donations for us to be able to help others. So, you know, I remember one of the things that struck me, I'll never forget,

is a little girl. She was eight years old and she sews and she came and she'd made face masks and she wanted me to give it to other little children. We had dinner clubs coming together. We had a group created 100 for 100, 100 women committing to feed 100 families. This outpouring has definitely been a positive. And maybe one of the things we all need to think about is how do we harness that how do we keep that going when things go back to normal right you're listening to the conversation i'm kim chakanetza and we're discussing how the pandemic is changing the way we live and work okay let's talk about the environment because we have had so many comments on social media about it and how a pause in the

world's frenetic movement has essentially allowed nature a chance to breathe. I'm just going to read you a comment from Uzondu. She posted this on social media and she's from Ghana. She says, for the first time in my living memory, the world stopped. Everything we had been advocating for, air travel, sea travel, everything, even affected noise pollution. Indeed, that would have been a good way to start building back better. But unfortunately, things have started moving again. They're not on a high scale, but it's happening on my side of the globe. It's more like in a pre-COVID era. We are responsible for polluting our planet. We must do something to fix the damage.

So, Penel, how do you think the slight improvements to the environment we've seen can be made the most of? Yvonne? In the midst of the COVID pandemic, the climate crisis, that was one of the things that was always a risk. That people would lose sight of how important that was, that all the energy that was going towards the COP meetings, et cetera, would be shifted. But in a way, nature spoke. We saw the photos of skies without smog. We saw deer frolicking in fields. And for me, I'm part of a group of mayors, the C40 cities, who are committed to fighting climate change. And we have used the reset, as everyone is calling it,

to really continue to underline the importance of the climate agenda. And we are advocating for what we're calling a green and just recovery, so that when we're building back, when things are going back to normal, there's not business as usual. It's not normal. I mean, we were fortunate to be able to move ahead with our Freetown the Tree Town campaign during this pandemic. You know, we moved on with our, you know, planting of a million trees, that I would say the pandemic was sharp. It came out of the blue. It was devastating. But what is important to realize

that it did not stop climate change. It may have paused some of our activity to help us realize just how much of a negative impact we're having on the planet. But unless we go back, you've got many countries talking about a recovery fund, how that recovery fund is used, where those investments are made, what sort of normal we look forward to will mean or not mean that we're going to be facing a worse crisis because climate change needs to be addressed with the same level of urgency

that we're seeking to address the pandemic. You know, I feel very strongly about this one. No, I can tell. Vigorous nods all round while you were speaking, Yvonne. Shani, I want to come to you. Yeah, I guess just reflecting on the question it's it's crazy that it had to take a pandemic for us to realize so many things in order for us to see those images you know I remember my family sending me images from India in the Punjab

where they could for the first time ever see see the mountains of the Himalayas. And, like, I've been there to see my family loads. I've never seen that. And they've lived their entire lives and they've never seen that. So from that to, you know, us realising how important connection is, the things that we really love and need to be more mindful of in life you know the pandemic has made us realize so many things and looking after the planet and the climate is one of those things but I think it comes back to the fact that it's it's our collective responsibility

so from the small actions that I make here in London to the actions that Yvonne takes wherever she is in the world to Adonne takes wherever she's in the world, to Aditi or wherever she is in the world. It's our collective responsibility and what that looks like, you know, recycling, to how we wash our clothes, to how we consume products. I think that's what it comes down to. Well, let's take another question. This is our last question and it's from a listener in the US. Hello, my name is Madhavi. My question is, we need to stop measuring success with GDP and stock prices. They indicate very little about the health of society.

As in science, the better your measuring stick, the more profound your findings will be. Can we please propose other alternatives and work towards new infrastructure to meet those new goals? Okay, so that's from Madhavi in the US. What do people think of this? Karen, what do you think of this? I couldn't agree more. I think GDP is a ridiculous way of measuring that you can optimize and optimize and ruin yourself whilst doing it. And so yeah, I think we should start taking regular people's lives into account and actually measure how well is the population faring? How good are we at catering

to all the martialized groups in society? Like, what are we actually doing here? And are we doing a good job? I think there are very few to none countries that are doing that currently. So it would be cool seeing someone stepping up and actually paving the way. Yeah, I think a lot of companies can start and set the bar high for how they work. And especially international corporations have been taking quite a lot of responsibility towards their own workers, but that will never benefit everyone.

But yeah, I think the private-public kind of mix here can actually make a big difference, which I hope we will see very, very, very soon. Yvonne, is it possible? What can we do? Karen, you just said the big corporations are taking action. And what came to mind immediately is the disparity in terms of the value chain that many of these organizations would have. So, for example, I'm not going to name any names, but let's just think of a chocolate manufacturer, you know, who might be working on giving some very good, you know, maternity leave, maternity leave, work life balance opportunities for their workers in the West. But for the people who are farming the cocoa and getting next to nothing by way of payment and then the chain right along along that process with the government so leave no one behind is the is the slogan of the SDGs the question I agree with the the reality of the world in which we're living is that as you said Karen optimize optimize and kill yourself whilst doing it. But where we want to get to is one where this conversation

is not a nice conversation that's had in nice offices and rooms and places in one part of the world at the expense of the rest of the world. So it's really important that we have a re-look at the whole structure of world trade, economic agreements between countries, within countries. This isn't going to be done overnight and it's going to require leadership. So when Shani was talking about the response to climate change being one that we're looking for business to do, I would say, no, it's one that we take as consumers. We're the ones who they depend on. What are the decisions we're going to make? Of course,

not everybody is going to be in a position to plant a million trees, but we can make decisions about the products we do use. And in the same way, coming back to this point here about how do we measure success, it's our voices that have to be the challenge. It's our voices that have to be the challenge in decisions about corporates, in decisions about government policy, in decisions about the way we live our lives, taking more of an interest,

and that's one of the wonderful things about technology, about the impact of the decisions that we're taking on those around us, and also what we're choosing to do. Are we choosing to kill ourselves? Are we choosing to stop and go exercise in the start of the day? Can I jump on and take away my defense for all big corporations? Because that was definitely not how that was meant. But I think it's really cool to see a couple of companies like taking a stand and forcing their local governments and these huge international corporations

like in small countries like Norway, they have something to say, like they can talk to government and make an actual difference, which is really cool. So yeah, definitely not all. And I completely agree on the value chain needs to be seen as a whole. But yeah, I like that those with power recognize the fact that they do have that power, and then try to influence in a positive way. I think there's way too many passive players out there, both on the government side of things, but also on the company and on the consumer side.

It's much easier to just be passive. So yeah, whenever you see what your power actually is, you should use it and be very aware that it's there. And just to add to that, I completely loved what Karen and Yvonne said and the point that Karen and Yvonne said and the point that Karen Yvonne made about um you know consumers consumers do vote with their power their money don't they're gonna say pound uh well here in the UK it's pound um they vote with their money and people are looking into how sustainable businesses are

people are looking into the ethics of the company you know what they do what they do for corporate social responsibility so we absolutely do have the power not only as not only the power in how we live our lives you know at home but also how we consume as well and who we give that power to with our money you know may I sorry may I jump in please the one thought that has stayed with me through this lockdown has through the through the pandemic has stayed with me through this lockdown has through the through the pandemic has been that how first world second world or third world we think a country is depends entirely on the common man's access to justice and the dispensation of justice is a combination of the political and economic power that the common man holds in their hand. And whether it's about holding, you know, corporations responsible,

where you're voting with your money, but being able to break that nexus at the top of politicians and, you know, corporates sort of holding the common man down. And I really think that what this pandemic taught me was to stay mad, was to just stay mad. Just every time that I saw injustice, be mad. And as Karen said, of course, you know, to use your power to be able to affect change in whatever way you can.

Well, I have a final question for my panel before we wrap up. So what is the one thing you want to take forward into the post-COVID world when we finally get there? Aditi. Discussions like these. Nice, elegant answer. Correct answer. I like that Shani um I think I want to say so many things personally time for self-care I've loved having

that I haven't had that for a really long time um but for society and humankind, the compassion and the empathy that we've seen, I haven't seen that on this scale ever. I want that to go forward and I want people to think about that when they make decisions that affect large parts of societies. Karen? It's very, very hard to not agree with the previous two. So maybe I'll actually leave it at that. Thank you. Yvonne? to not agree with the previous two. So maybe I'll actually leave it at that. I think. Yvonne?

Can you see Karen? Yvonne's wagging her finger at you. She's noticed how you slid out of there very elegantly. Agree with those ladies. Amanda, Yvonne, over to you then. I think I want to just, you know, sort of reiterate Shani's point about this has given us an opportunity to see compassion come back. I was watching the other day food banks that are being funded by I was describing, just that interest in humanity, in the man next door, the child next door, to see how that can carry over.

And on a practical level, I think we've learned that more can be done with technology. We can be more connected globally and we can sustain those interactions and build coming out of it. So that's definitely something that I'm going to be looking to build on Aditi's point. That's definitely something that I'm going to be looking forward to more conversations like these. We've come to the end of the program. A very special thanks to my panel of guests, Karen Dolver, Shani Danda, Yvonne Akisoya, Aditi Mattel. It's been a pleasure talking to you all. If you want to find out more about this year's BBC 100 Women list, then please go to bbc.com forward slash 100 women. I'm Kim

Chakaneta. Thank you for listening. We have to really face reality. Urgency, even more urgency. We need to pick up speed because it has been taking too long. We all know we need to do something about the climate crisis. Coal is a challenge. The more coal you bring online, the harder it becomes to bring it offline. So why do we find it hard to do that something? Locals here tell me although those practices are illegal, they are still happening. On the Climate Question podcast, we ask how can we overcome the challenges we're all facing?

If you don't involve local people, then your plan is bound to fail. With stories, discoveries and solutions from around the world. The Climate Question from the BBC World Service. It's a very real thing that the Maldives is facing and struggling with right now. Search for BBC Climate Question wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

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