Woman's Hour - Boxing Day on Rest

Episode Date: December 26, 2022

This is your time to rest.. you have permission. Lie on the floor, or sit on a chair, get yourself comfortable... close your eyes if you'd like... take a deep breath in... and exhale... How much do you rest? Do you prioritise it? Maybe you feel you don't have time to rest! Or maybe you feel guilty for taking time out? Jessica Creighton discusses the theme of Rest with her guests.The presenter and author of The Art of Rest Claudia Hammond defines what rest is - and isn’t; discusses some of the most restful activities, gives a ‘Prescription for Rest’ and explains why she has a box containing a crochet hook and some seeds.The Reverend Lesley Jones, Rector at The Parish of Jarrow of Simonside, and Anna Katharina Schaffner, Professor of Cultural History at the University of Kent, discuss the day of rest and the ‘rest cure’ – which involved drinking four pints of milk and eating mutton chops! The nature geek Melissa Harrison takes us on a country walk near her village and describes how nature rests in winter.Composer Debbie Wiseman explains how music can promote a feeling of restfulness and demonstrates with some of her favourites from Beethoven to Brahms and her own composition Together.British athletes discuss how they use rest to perform at the highest level. The Former athlete and Olympic medallist Anyika Onuora and sport climber and five times National Champion Molly Thompson-Smith share their stories of how necessary it was in aiding their recovery from illness and injury.And a former magazine editor Marianne Jones commissioned hundreds of pieces about stress, but ignored her own potentially fatal burnout. She recalls the warning signs that led her to become a relaxed woman.Presented by Jessica Creighton Producer: Louise Corley

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning and welcome to Boxing Day's edition of Woman's Hour. Today's programme is devoted to rest and I'm sure many of you will need it as this can be such a busy and frantic time of the year, can't it? If that's the case, you're in the right place. Over the next hour, I'll take you through the meaning of rest, how it's changed over the years and why it's so important. How much do you rest? Do you prioritise it? Maybe you feel you don't have time to rest or maybe you feel guilty for taking time out. If that's you, you're not alone. With all the shopping, cooking events and get togethers at this time of year, it can be difficult to immerse yourself in the full sensation of restfulness.

Well, I guess over the next hour, we'll have a whole range of information and tips to help you out and me as well. Composer Debbie Wiseman will explain how music can promote a feeling of restfulness. We'll also hear from some British athletes on how they use rest to perform at the highest level. And a former magazine editor shares her recovery from a job so stressful it was impacting her health. Now, this programme is pre-recorded. It isn't live, but I'd still love to get your thoughts on this topic. Where and when do you take time out, if at all? What helps you to rest? Maybe it's getting lost in a book or going for a walk.

Maybe you meditate. Do you feel guilty for taking time out? You can text me on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour. And you can also email us through our website. Now, before I introduce my first guest, this is your time to rest. You have permission. You could lie on the floor, sit on the chair, get yourself comfortable, close your eyes if you'd like, take a deep breath and exhale. Now, have you ever heard of the rest test? It's the world's largest ever study on rest done in 2016. It was first launched on All In The Mind on Radio 4 in collaboration with

Welcome Collection, Hubbub and Durham University. Now researchers from Hubbub led by Professor Felicity Callard developed a questionnaire asking people what rest meant to them, how they rested and whether they would like more of it and they came up with the top 10 most restful activities. I'm joined in the studio now by Claudia Hammond, author of The Art of Rest, presenter of Radio 4's All in the Mind, and she's also visiting professor at the University of Sussex. Good morning, Claudia. Morning.

Firstly, how do you define rest? Because I suppose it depends who you are as to how you see rest. It really does. So people have very, very different views and different ways of seeing rest. It's something that relaxes you. It's something that's intentional, that's restorative, that leaves you feeling refreshed afterwards. But the key thing is, it doesn't have to mean doing nothing at all. In fact, lots of people find it very hard to sit and do nothing. Just to close your eyes and be present is difficult. It's really difficult.

So it doesn't necessarily have to mean that. And we found in the rest test that it did mean very different things to different people. So for some people, it would be something that wasn't active, like say, watching TV. And for others, it would be exercise. So 15% of people told us that exercise was actually the way they rested. And for some people, they can't stop those sort of whirring of thoughts, whirring round and round in their brain, until they perhaps exhaust the body in order for their mind to relax. So it will vary a lot from different people. But reading was very popular.

Reading came top in the rest test. Being in nature, listening to music, spending time on their own. A really key thing was that the top five activities are all things people tend to do alone. And we looked at personality as well. to music, spending time on their own. A really key thing was that the top five activities are all things people tend to do alone. And we looked at personality as well. And even with the extroverts, even if you just took them, the top activities were still things they did alone. So in one way, what we all need, which isn't easy for everyone to get at Christmas, is some time on your own, some chosen time on your own. So very different from loneliness.

Yeah, that idea of being intentional with that time alone why is that why is it that that scored so highly on this list of activities I think it's because however much you love the people around you however nice they are they are a bit tiring because you've got to take into account what they're thinking all the time we're thinking what are the other people with us thinking what do they want to do what do they think about what we're doing what do they think about what we're doing? What do they think about what we're thinking? And that is, you know, lovely being with people and connecting with people is really important, but it's also taxing.

So sometimes what we need is just to get away from other people. And we found that of the 18,000 people who took part, two-thirds said that they wanted more rest, that they didn't get enough rest. And we know that rest does really matter. It really does. And where does sleep fit into all of this? Because there'll be people listening thinking, well, I rest when I sleep. But is that enough?

Yeah, so it's not enough. So it's different from that. So I think in recent years, it's become much more recognised how important sleep is. And we hear a lot about the science of sleep now and why it really matters, why it isn't a good idea to think oh i can i can just manage on four hours that is probably not a good idea for people's health and i think rest is something that is starting to get taken seriously as well because if two-thirds people want more rest then we do seem to have a deficit in it and rest matters because we know that people who feel they get enough rest have higher levels of well-being for a start. We know that the opposite, fatigue, can lead to memory lapses. It can lead to misunderstandings and arguments, accidents, poor concentration, blunted emotions. You know, all of those things

are what comes from being tired out and not getting enough rest. And sometimes I think it's just that those thoughts won't stop whirring around in your head until you can get some proper rest and get something that maybe really distracts you for a while and something where you don't feel guilty, where you feel you can have permission to rest. And I wonder if that's why one of the things that that came in the top 10 was having a bath. And one of the good things about having a bath, obviously, is that you do need to get clean. So I think you can feel slightly less guilty about having a bath and getting clean, because although you can relax and hopefully not be disturbed, it also has another purpose as well.

And that helps us not feel guilty. I'm intrigued by that use of the word permission to allow yourself to rest. What do you mean by that, giving yourself permission? It's so important because we know we found in the rest tests that a certain percentage of people, and more women said this than men said that they felt guilty whenever they rested that they felt guilty every time because there is always something else to be doing you know we will never in a way probably get to the end of our to-do lists and that's that's something to accept and if you do

get to the end of your to-do list there'll be something else on it tomorrow so there are people who feel guilty whenever they rest and I think one way of giving yourself permission to rest is to recognise the benefits it has for your mental health. And in the same way that you probably wouldn't feel guilty going for a run, because you know that's good for you physically and mentally, but people do feel guilty about resting. And what you need to say to yourself is there are proven benefits of this to your mental health and to your memory and to your cognitive function as well.

People's memories improve when they've just had a rest. Even a short break makes people's memories better. You mentioned there that it tends to be more women than men who feel guilty about allowing themselves to rest. What other gender angles did this questionnaire throw up, this massive study of rest? Yeah, there were a few differences so if we ask people whether people thought that they got more or less rest than average then more men tended to say that they thought they got less rest than average now in fact they did get less rest on average than women but only 10 minutes a day which isn't isn't that much. We found that women were more likely to use words like guilty or stress-inducing or frustrating, actually, when they talked about rest. More women chose

watching TV as something restful and being on their own, and more men chose listening to music. But in a way, it's for people to find the two or three activities that they think makes the most difference to them, that really makes them feel as if they can really relax and those thoughts stop whirring around in your head. I feel like culturally there is currency given to being productive and sometimes allowing yourself to rest can be seen as a weakness is that fair to say? Yeah I think it is I think there is a kind of cult of busyness, if you like. And busyness has almost become a kind of status symbol as well. So, you know, if people, I see someone I know, and they say, Oh, how are you? How's work? I'll say, Oh, I'm really busy, a bit too busy, really.

And in one way, yes, that feels true. But on the other hand, how much is that also a claim to status, a claim to say, look how busy I am at work. Look how really important I must be. And if you're honest, I think, you know, is it partly a bit of that? And so and I think it's very difficult to answer and say, oh, I've not been doing very much, really. I've been getting a bit of rest, you know, and actually we should feel that we can say that, you know, it's a good thing. Do you feel you can say that now that you know all this information about rest? You've written about it. You've presented programs on on it you must be the queen of rest Claudia I have to admit my friends thought it was very funny when I said I was writing a book on rest because they were saying but you never rest you're always working and you're always out and you're always doing things

what I am trying to do is to look at the rhythms of rest and activity in my own life so the one thing I do do is I don't feel guilty anymore when I rest. So one of the things I do is say if I'm working at home is I love gardening and gardening is the thing I find really restful. So peaceful, isn't it? It's so peaceful. And I know some people hate it and think it's just, you know, outdoor housework, but I love it. And so I might go out for 10 or 15 minutes and deadhead a few things.

And I used to do that anyway, but I used to feel guilty about it. And now I don't. I think rest is important. This is for my mental health and I'm not going to feel guilty and you feel better for it yeah I do oh definitely the moment I'm out in the garden doing something I can feel those sort of waves of relaxation coming over me and start to see some of those thoughts whirring around slow down and go away yeah I can imagine gardening's very peaceful I like to go for walks but at this time of year I'm definitely put off by that. Claudia it's been fantastic and really insightful to talk to you do stay with us because I know you're going to give us some tips at the

end of the program aren't you? Yeah absolutely all sorts of tips on what you can do to build more rest into your own life. Thank you for the moment, Sir Claudia Hammond. Now, the importance of rest is not a new topic. Historically, it's been taken very seriously, very seriously indeed. In fact, it's one of the Ten Commandments. But Christmas is also one of the busiest times of the year, especially for the clergy. Reverend Leslie Jones can tell us more. She's Rector at the parish of Jarrow of Simonside, a large urban parish in the diocese of Durham. And Anna Scheffner, who's Professor of Cultural History at the University of Kent. Welcome to the programme, both of you. Good morning. Anna, I'll come to you first. Clearly, rest has been very important. It's one of the Ten Commandments. Please tell us more about the history.

Yes. So I would say what is really striking is that the human need for rest was taken really seriously in the past. And that is evident, as you say, in the fact that the Sabbath rule features so prominently in the Decalogue. And what I would say, what is really important about the ancient art of resting is that it didn't serve the desire to enhance people's productivity, which is really the modern justification of rest. But in the past, rest served the function of strengthening communal ties. What was really important was that there was a shared rhythm to our periods of activity and our periods of rest. Yeah, I like that idea of community and rest bringing us together. I don't think we have that anymore as much, certainly. Lesley, with your workload, it must be quite difficult for you,

particularly at this time of year, to just stop and rest. It is, it is. And I was claudia and the surprise for friends when she was looking to write a book about rest and i mentioned to a few people you wanted me to talk about rest today and they said really you you're the last person i would think of so i think it's that recurring theme of you have to be really intentional about it. I'm working with people across four churches at a very busy, it's always busy. It's not just at Christmas. So I have to be really, really intentional and carve out huge chunks of time. I could be on the go all day, every day if I wanted to and again that's the the demand and and how we are tempted into being

over productive living 24 7 and we just can't do it and I think if I didn't take my one day off a week because we work six not just on a Sunday um I don't think i'd be very effective at all so i've got a i've got a carve out time to rest and so while to my parishioners and those who know me i always seem to be on the go and into school and everything else i actually carve out my time at the very beginning of the day and the very end of the day and i'm a polar opposite. I set the alarm an hour earlier. So at this time of year, the alarm's set for six. So I've got between six and seven just to be still. And then I have time to reflect on what happened the day before

rather than charge straight through. And I have time for the daily office morning prayer. And that just gets me ready and then I sort of get my collar on go off do what I do and then later on as soon as I can really um it used to be before I was ordained I'd get in from work get the jammies on now it's when everything settles down just find that space with or without pajamas you know and and just slow everything down yeah just find that peaceful moment and a prayer and and that's how I manage to keep active for as long as I can during the day yeah good for you it sounds very much like you use rest to help you

as much mentally as you do physically Anna how has rest been viewed throughout history? Because I know there was something called the rest cure, which was almost exclusively prescribed for women. Can you explain more about that and what it involved? Yeah, the rest cure was really fascinating. It became incredibly popular in the late 19th century. And it was invented by an American physician called Celas Weir-Mitchell and he put rest center stage in his therapeutics and he really invented what became known as the rest cure and that required the patient's complete isolation, very strict bed rest, deprivation of any intellectual stimuli and rapid weight gain and as said, the majority of his patients were women and they were confined to bed for a period of up to eight weeks. And during this period,

they didn't just have to rest, but they also had to consume large quantities of milk, at least four pints a day and mutton chops. And unsurprisingly, most women were not big fans of this treatment. I'm not surprised. And its benefits were very questionable. And unsurprisingly, most women were not big fans of this treatment. I'm not surprised. And its benefits were very questionable. And there was actually quite an interesting reaction by an American writer called Charlotte Perkins Gilman. She wrote a short story about it called The Yellow Wallpaper, in which she brandishes that rest cure as a deeply damaging practice. And there was actually a very misogynistic dimension to this cure, because in Weir Mitchell's writings, it becomes really obvious that he essentially wanted to prevent the emancipation of women, to keep them in the house, to scare them out of the public sphere and to prevent

them from taking jobs. And he told them that they were not physically fit to compete with men in the workplace. And that terrible exhaustion would set in and other medical calamities if they, you know, if they endeavored to compete. And so he used medical scare stories and, you know, therapeutics such as the infamous rescue for what was essentially a gender political agenda virginia wolf was also not a fan she had some very funny and very sharp and sarcastic things to say about the rescue yeah and i guess what is really important about the rescue is all

as claudia mentioned before that not everyone finds um you, bed rest or doing nothing restful. A lot of people actually need stimulation of some kind and bed rest of that enforced kind can be incredibly damaging psychologically. Yeah, I'm not surprised that so many writers since have criticized that method. It sounds awful. Leslie, tell me about the religious idea of having a day of rest in the Christian faith at the day of the Sabbath. Tell me about that and why it's so important. Well, I suppose it's there from the very first pages of what we now regard as the Bible, the very story of creation itself, God takes the day off.

And I suppose the thinking is even God, the creator of all things, takes time out to rest. So the fact that I love that idea of having the Ten Commandments because it's about community. And there you had this community being forged in the desert so what it does give us is it gives us permission should we need it to take that restorative time to take that time not only for body but for mind for spirit for family for friends and so we do have permission just interesting again to hear claudia talk about that feelings of guilt. And that's been there for centuries and centuries. And it's only sort of in recent history, I suppose Anna will know more about this than me, that we have started to live our lives across the seven days. So I think to have that one day is fantastic. But I do actually have a favourite passage about rest. And it's in the New Testament as opposed to the Old Testament.

Okay. And it's when Jesus is teaching. And it's a passage that sticks in my head. And he's saying, come to me, all who are weary and carrying heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. And I think it was the first year I was ordained. It was my first ever Christmas. And I came down with the flu or something. I remember sitting with this passage and saying, really, Lord? I feel as if I'm carrying way too much here. I'm absolutely shattered.

I could sleep for a week. And there's been a recurring theme. So when I say I'm intentional about resting, I've done the hard way. Do you know what I mean? And the passage goes on to say, my yoke is easy and my burden is light. And then I had a light bulb moment in these moments where I did feel as if I had no energy left at all, I realized, had I taken my day off look at other ways through situations to support the person that they can better support themselves. And what is the thing that I need to carry right now? What is the important stuff that I need to be paying attention to so that we give ourselves some space, really? Give ourselves the space permission those words

keep coming up doesn't it and sometimes we see rest as a punishment when actually it's a gift isn't it it is a gift it is a gift if you think about it the fact that it's mentioned in the old testament in such a way it's as if we are being given the gift of a whole day to do those things that are maybe more nurturing and just better for ourselves and community than we may do in those other six days. So why would we not want to have that gift? If it was packaged with a bow and this was what you can do in eight hours on your day off, we wouldn't say, no, thank you. I'd rather work. So sometimes we need to change our perception and think, you know what? Right, written through scripture is this idea that we have this time,

which is a gift. It's a gift for us. And you could look at it as a gift from God. Yeah, that's a really great way of looking at it, Lesley. And a big thanks to Reverend Lesley Jones and to Anna Schaffner. You're listening to the Boxing Day edition of Woman's Hour with me, Jessica Crichton, where the mood is one of rest. In the studio with me is psychologist Claudia Hammond, who will have some top tips for you in getting more rest. Also with me is composer Debbie Wiseman, who will treat us to some restful music a little bit later.

Still to come on the programme, the importance of rest to allow you to perform at the highest level with Olympic medalist Annika Onura and sport climber Molly Thompson-Smith. Also, journalist Marianne Jones will explain how to allow yourself to rest after she suffered from burnout. Now, this programme is pre-recorded,

so although it's not live, I'd still love to get your thoughts on this topic. You can text me on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour, and you can also email us through our website. Also, the nature writer, Melissa Harrison, sent us a voice note to share her thoughts on rest in winter and how she likes to take some time for herself. It's just gone half past three on a cold December day, and I've forced myself to shut my laptop, wrap up warm and go for a walk before it gets dark. As a writer, I've worked from home for a long time now,

and as many people will have found in the last couple of years it can be hard to let yourself be properly off duty. At home work can so easily bleed into evenings, weekends and even the Christmas break. It's hard to take time off. The days are so short around the solstice. There's barely enough time for last night's frost to melt before a pale sun sinks behind the tree line and it freezes again. And without its warmth, everything slows and stops. I head out into fog rolling visibly down the narrow lanes, cloaking the black tracery of the naked oaks

and shrouding the stark winter hedgerows. The icy fields beyond them are silent and empty. No birds sing. A rutted track runs away from the village into farmland. The sap is low in the dormant trees on either side. All growth has paused and nothing is becoming. Native plants know how to cope with winter's strictures, some by losing their vulnerable foliage, others by secreting their own antifreeze. As I walk, frost is invisibly breaking up the clay under my feet, making the spring soil easier to cultivate, while around me next year's pest and disease burden is being reduced. This natural pause is absolutely vital. Everything is as it should be. Away from my desk, my mind has the time and space to do what it needs to,

which isn't always what I think. New connections are made, details remembered or discarded. As the light begins to fade, I turn, renewed, back to the yellow-lit village. Melissa Harrison. Now, we spoke about the rest test a

little bit earlier, didn't we? And the top 10 most restful activities. Well, one of them was listening to music. Here to talk about and demonstrate some restful music for us is composer and conductor Debbie Wiseman OBE. Debbie is a visiting professor at the Royal College of Music. And throughout the past 20 years she's had more than 200 credits for the big and small screen including Wild, Wolf Hall, Tom and Viv, Lost Christmas, The Promise, Warriors, Landgirls and Othello. Debbie has also been nominated for two Ivor Novello awards and a Grammy and has won an RTS Award. She was the official composer and musical director of the Platinum Jubilee celebration at Windsor in May.

And she also composed the music for the BBC TV live broadcast covering the Queen's funeral. Good morning, Debbie. Good morning, Jessica. Great to have you in the studio with us. You're already sat there at the piano. Before you give us a blast and give us some techniques that you use when you're composing restful music, just tell me, what does rest sound like to you when you're composing it? a tempo there's longer held notes it's played gently maybe without loud dynamics usually without a lot of percussion and fast exciting rhythms which have a lot of movement as you know a lot of movement in music tends to get the heart going if you think about when you're exercising upbeat music gives you that surge of energy yeah like when I'm in the gym for example I'll be

listening to I don't know UK Garage for example, I'll be listening to, I don't know, UK Garage, for example, which is much higher BPM, the vocals tend to be quite fast paced, but it gets me energetic. Exactly. So the exact opposite is what you want when you want to rest. There's been some science around this as well. Music played at around 60 beats per minute can relax the brain, it helps it synchronise with the tempo and actually trigger chemical reactions in the brain that help to stimulate these feelings of calm, it can lower stress and anxiety. So it's having a real physiological effect. It really does.

And I think because music gets to your heart so directly, unlike anything else, you know, with language, of course we talk and we communicate, but music doesn't need anything except getting straight to your heart. So it's very, very powerful. And that's why people do find it very soothing and lowering stress and helping you to relax. One of the most famous pieces of Beethoven is his Moonlight Sonata. Now, if you listen to these very insistent brooding arpeggios at the beginning of this piece, it's also that it's the simplicity of a piano. You're listening just to a solo instrument. Even though the music is quite complex with its harmonies and the harmonies develop, it's got this gentle, rippling undercurrent. And I guarantee, if I just play you, I don't know, nine bars of this music, when I finish, I'm sure you're going to say,

you feel a little bit more relaxed. If I'm not already asleep. Piano music Gjørens morg. you knew what i was going to say before I even said it. But yes, calmer, calmer, more serene. I feel warm and it immediately just transports me somewhere else. It's that slow, hypnotic music that helps the brain almost to meditate. It's a kind of sort of trance like state you get into. And that encourages relaxation and it also it lowers your body's level of cortisol which is the hormone that contributes to stress and anxiety so music is hugely powerful in helping and if you think about it when we were children what was the first music that we heard it was lullabies and the reason that they're and actually they're not just for babies if i just i mean this

very famous brahms lullaby i'll just play you a couple of bars of it It's so soothing, isn't it? So simple, it's inviting, it's uncomplicated. It really is. And it's soothing. And that's why when you sing to a child to get them to sleep, the idea that you're singing a lullaby, something gentle with a rhythm that's meditative is so helpful. It's comfortable as well. Is that use of repetition part of it as well? Because it becomes almost like a mantra. Exactly. Repetition is very important. I mean, if you think about it, when you go to a spa, or I don't know if you like

spas, I'm not too young. They always play these sort of gentle humming music voices, pan pipes, to get you relaxed, to get you in the mood. My body began to sway there. It wasn't even conscious. It gives a sense of well-being. I mean, also the music we love, we know, releases endorphins, increases our sense of happiness, well-being. And so listening to music that you love, I think, is a great way to relax.

And I would always, you know, even if it's not particularly relaxing music, if you love it, it helps you to just get rid of the worries of the day. Everything you've played on that piano today has gripped me. There's just something about music and the way it's able to direct emotions. Yeah, I mean, one way or the other, one way or another. And during the pandemic, there was a huge increase of people turning to listening to music, whether it's classical or just music they love. It shifts the brain's activity away from pain, emotion, all suffering, and it helps alleviate stress. I wrote a piece called Together. It was during the first lockdown. And it was a very simple piece. It had a melody with rise and fall in it. Simple to understand and simple to play. And I put it in whatever way they would like. They could listen to it, play it, or if they had a flute or guitar or piano at home, even if they didn't, even if

they just had some pots and pans or whatever, try and make music. And we had the most overwhelming response to this piece. People were so pleased to have something that would occupy their brain. So it wasn't, you know, they weren't going to sleep, they weren't being restful, they weren't having a long bath. They were doing something productive, but also something that was rewarding and pleasurable. And we had a huge response to it. The piece is called Together.

And you're actually going to play us out at the end of the programme, that particular piece. I'm really looking forward to hearing that. But for the moment, Debbie Wiseman, thank you for joining us. We'll hear from you a little bit later. Thank you. Now, one area where rest is crucial is in sport. It's essential to give your body enough time

to replenish its energy stores and time for your muscles to recover from damage. Two women who know all about this are former athletes, Annika Onura, who has competed in races all over the world. She won medals at the world championships, commonwealth games, european championships and an olympic medal at Rio 2016. Also joining me is Molly Thompson-Smith a sport climber and five times national champion. Great to have you. Annika I I'll start with you. In life, maybe you can get away with

not having enough rest. You can just about keep going. You can grind it out. But when you're competing at the top level, it must be near impossible not to be well rested. Tell me about it. Yeah, rest is so integral in everything that we did as an international athlete um you know it's just part of your recovery process and you can't recover for the next session you need to make sure that you are um you know eating the right foods you're getting enough sleep not getting rest can affect your diet it can affect your moods it can affect your training which can then lead to poor performance. I didn't really understand the meaning of rest until I was pretty much halfway through my career. Oh, no. Because before then, I know, I know, I was so bad.

But yeah, don't tell anyone. I did pretty okay in terms of rest. You did more than okay. Thank you. But it's probably once I stepped up to the 400s, because previously, prior to that, I was a sprinter, so it was one and two. But I think as my body got older and I was moving towards the 400, that's when I realised, oh, I really need rest

because I need to be able to recuperate from each and every session so my body can regenerate, you know, muscles, just to make sure I'm prepared well for the next workout. Because, yeah, as I got older, you realise, you know muscles just to make sure I'm prepared well for the next workout because yeah as I got older you realize you know spring chicken so rest was super super important to how I managed my life as an elite athlete. Yeah and Molly how much time do you take out of your training schedule to make sure that you are well rested you can you know you can be honest because I know a lot of sports people sometimes don't want to take time off they want to keep going and going and going yeah definitely I think that a lot of sports people think that resting or maybe those who aren't um that experienced especially um think that resting you're kind of getting behind in a way

and and whilst you're resting there's someone else who's doing more um training harder pushing themselves and so it can be really hard to take that time to rest but um i think maybe looking at it in a way where resting is part of the training that you're doing um that definitely helped me try and prioritize rest, prioritize nutrition, prioritize rest, all those those accessories to the training, the bits that feel like the hard work that actually make the difference when really all the other accessory bits make such a massive difference as well. Without rest, you can't train hard. Without proper nutrition, you can't train hard. And if you can't train hard, then you can't compete. So reframing rest was really important to me. And now I am very reactive with my body to try and make sure that I'm really getting the best out of it.

And some days the best out of it is resting and recovering rather than pushing. So, yeah, it's been a learning curve for me. And I've had several injuries along the way that have kind of fast-tracked well yeah there's been times hasn't there where you've had a serious finger injury for example back in 2017 and you were forced to take rest you had no choice yeah I think forced rest is the worst kind of rest but sometimes it's the most valuable and the rest that um has the biggest impact on you like you said I ruptured three pulleys back in 2017 and that required surgery and for the first time in my life I just couldn't climb rather than kind of choosing not to to be climbing or anything

how did you deal with that how did you adapt it was a struggle and actually I went and did like basically any other sport I could um because as athletes you're so not used to having time I guess and not doing anything with your body um but injuries are like I said a great lesson in right now the main focus of this time is to rest and recover and so that forced rest really allowed me to kind of become more in touch with my body understand the warning signs of over training I guess and when I'm tired or grumpy not being rested affects your mood it affects everything and so it was really tricky not to be climbing but um yeah I tried to do as much other sporting events gymming as I could but also finding a way to enjoy resting and recovering because from this experience I learned how valuable that was going to be in the future if I wanted to

continue doing elite sport and so yeah reframing what resting was finding ways that I enjoyed it like cooking or reading um pretty popular ones like we heard earlier just to make sure that I would actually want to do it in the future yeah um and I know you're talking about this in the context of sport but I think these are good tips for for life um now Ann, I know that you were also forced to take a rest. And in fact, you had to teach yourself to walk again after contracting what can be a fatal type of malaria. Tell me about that experience and what you learned about your body and the amount of rest it needs. Oh, I was trying to bury that deep inside my brain and you just brought it back up. Sorry, Annika. do you not want to

talk about it because because it was obviously a life-changing experience for you no no no not at all not at all um i mean i've written about my experience about that so no it's fine it's fine um yeah i basically had to learn how to walk again once i contracted malaria and by then I didn't really understand like I said having to rest again we were on a timeline when you're working towards the Olympics. Yeah you were just 10 months out when it happened weren't you from Rio? Yeah it was it was 10 months out from Rio so everything that we we did is was measured by time you're on a time scale so I you know you know, I couldn't recover by myself. So I had to move back home and, you know, get help and support from my family, from my mum. And yeah, just, just

resting for a while after the consultant said, you know, you're not going to be back in time and, you know, to take, take rest, rest, rest, rest. And I did. And then once I was able to, you know, get enough sufficient rest, I then then started walking again walking around the garden and then walking up the streets and then learning how to skip again like basic stuff because it's it's like basic mechanics you know stuff that we're just so used to like sprinting is just like obvious to me like just sprinting but i couldn't do it um because my body wouldn't allow me so i had to go back to basics like something simple as me walking to the shops I couldn't do without like huffing and puffing breaking down because I was just so

tired and I was still on a lot of heavy medication as well so yeah and then skipping and then skipping combined with jogging and then once I was able to jog I I was able to stride, move from 50 meters back up and down and then 100 meters. And then before you know it, in a couple of weeks, I was back like sprinting again and around 90 percent. So it took a lot of time. But that was, I think, the first time I really had to listen to my body because this wasn't like an injury like I had before with the Achilles or the hamstring. This was my health. This is my life on the line. So just listening to my body was important. What an incredible story and still ended up with a bronze medal at the Rio Olympics. Annika, I wonder how much cultural values have shaped your view of rest. Now, I come from a family of dominant women. They take control in

the family. They're very productive. They're very resourceful. Would I say that the women are well rested? No, I wouldn't. And so I never really had that to look up to. It was always about doing more, being stronger, rather than let me take a break, let me rest. How has your heritage shaped your view of what rest is and how important rest is? Oh, I can definitely relate to all of that. You know, I come from a very strong Nigerian family, so it's always about culture, tradition, values. And again, a lot of strong women who I was surrounded by from day one.

My mum, my aunties on both my parents' sides, extended family. And a lot of these women, they are extremely resourceful, but I never saw them rest because they were managing household, managing life, managing job, kids, stressful. Do you know what? That was right. I think this generation of Black British women,

because we've seen a lot of that in our families a lot of us are not willing to do that anymore we can just be as resourceful in our 20s and our 30s and our 40s still trying to navigate life without having to go through the same experiences that our mothers our grandmothers did um again the world is revolving as well so a lot of girls my age and from the culture within Nigeria whether you Nigerian West African Caribbean culture they are learning to rest you know they go on holidays they switch off one of my friends was telling me she went on a a silent retreat where she that's that's that's intense I know I know but she loved it and she's not a massive talker anyway but she just learned

how to just be at peace with everything like just stay calm you're not talking to anyone there yeah and you just don't have access to the outside world so I love that I'm not trying to say I would do it but maybe one day I couldn't imagine you at a silent retreat

but yes I definitely think um this generation of women are completely different to what um the elder generation had to go through so like yeah we put a lot of emphasis now on rest and the importance of that yeah and I think that's a good thing that can only help women um and anyone in future in in helping their mental, but also their physical health as well. Annika Neura and Molly Thompson-Smith, it's been a pleasure to have you on Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for joining us. Now, when Nicola Jane Hobbs posted on Instagram about trying to become a relaxed woman, she wasn't expecting so many women to relate. She wrote this, growing up, I never knew a relaxed woman. Successful women? Yes. Productive women? Plenty. Anxious and afraid and apologetic women? Heaps of them. But a relaxed woman who doesn't dissect their days into half hour slots of productivity. Women who give themselves unconditional permission to relax without guilt, without apology. I'm not sure I've ever met a woman like that,

but I would like to become one. Well, the journalist and podcast co-host Marianne Jones has become one. As an editor of a national magazine, she had commissioned hundreds of pieces about stress, but actually ignored her own potential fatal burnout. Welcome to the program, Marianne. Morning, Jessica. Thank you very much oh good morning just how busy were you when you were working as an editor for a national magazine because i bet many of our listeners will be able to relate uh ridiculously busy i mean on a scale of one to ten i was probably about an 11 wow and really during the pandemic um that's when things kind of got to a crisis point for me i mean I've been in journalism over 30 years and you know it's not for the zen like at the best of times but over the pandemic

as you'll know I do very well over the pandemic really uh we all went into into complete crisis mode because we were working overnight from from our kitchen tables um I was working on the weekly magazine you know every single cover every single interview every single photo shoot basically overnight disappeared so you were faced with empty pages no content so for a start you know you had all that to contend with then you had your technology from your kitchen table and trying to keep in touch with all all of your colleagues to try and sort something out and it just got beyond ridiculous really and um Ridiculous, really. And it got to a point where the lines were so blurred between being on and off that I just sort of lost all perspective of relaxation at all. Yeah, you mentioned you reached crisis point. So what was that? Well, what happened last summer, without me realising it, I started to get incredibly dizzy. I put it down to vertigo,

which I had had a couple of times and I'd sort of managed to shake it off just where you wake up and the room is spinning. So I thought, well, I've got vertigo, I've got an ear infection, I can't be bothering the doctor with this, you know. And it went on and on and on to the point, you know, I'd tie my shoelace and fall over and I hadn't even had a drink. Yeah, it was beyond a joke. But of course, you know, I just thought, oh, it's nothing. You know, shake it off. Get on with it. I can't go to the doctor. They're busy enough because, you know, we're still in the middle of a pandemic. So eventually and almost apologetically, I turned up to the GP and saying I'm sure it's nothing

he took my blood pressure and obviously it wasn't nothing because it was absolutely off the scale I've never had a problem with my blood pressure before I've had two babies not even during pregnancy so the stress had caused high blood pressure amongst other things? Well, he basically said, this is so serious. It's when the doctor says, is there somebody with you that you start to worry? And my husband basically had to drive me to the nearest out of ours pharmacy, because of course, I hadn't gone during the day I'd gone after work and I was given tablets that I'll have to take for the rest of my life heart tablets because um I was at almost what they call hypertensive crisis zone um which was basically on borderline um you could have I

could have had a heart attack or stroke at any point. And in fact, a couple of days later, I ended up in A&E overnight with a suspected stroke. And after that, you know, the doctor said, you've got to be signed off sick. So at the age of 55, I was signed off sick for the first time in my entire life and saw a cardiologist uh the cardiologist said this looks so bad that I think you might have something wrong with your heart I've got to prepare you for that and two weeks later I had to wear a heart monitor for a couple of weeks he said there's nothing wrong with your heart you're healthy how's your work stress one of the first things he asked me okay they knew straight away I said um I don't think it's good really and he said at this age your body cannot cope with what you're going through you have to take some significant time off and um what shocked me most of all is my naivety at not even realising I was stressed.

I mean, the number of features like you said that I'd commissioned, edited over the years about stress, wellbeing, you know, a lot of the stuff I did as a lifestyle journalist was wellness, self-care. I completely, absolutely ignored every single symptom. So do you think there were symptoms that you just overlooked so that your body was telling you, hey, you need to you need to calm down, you need to stop and you need to take some rest. But you chose not to to see those those signs. I ignored them. I think I've gone into permanent flight or fight mode I mean I've always been able to rest and sleep suddenly I wasn't sleeping I was teeth grinding in the middle of the night as well so I think even when I was asleep I wasn't rested I had headaches I actually went to an osteopath because I thought I'd got something wrong with my neck because I was developing sort of neck ache, headaches.

But I didn't realize any of those were particularly symptoms of stress. Honestly, unless I'd fallen down clutching my heart Hollywood style, you know, it wouldn't have occurred to me that I was suffering from stress which is absolutely ridiculous I just can't still to this day can't get over how naive I was as an educated person well I think many of us miss the signs because we're taught we're in a culture that tells us to just keep on going. Just keep on going. Don't complain. Kind of suck it up and move on. I was brought up in a generation where, you know, we talk about wellness. We talk about self-care. They weren't even words, you know, let alone industries.

And I was a little bit eyebrow-raisey and eye-rolly at any sort of mention of self-care you know the whole term sort of got on my nerves because that's just not for 30 years that is not what I was doing if you'd mentioned that in a you know in a regional newsroom 30 years ago you'd have been absolutely laughed out of the exit you know it's it would have been ridiculous and also you know it's not how I was brought up I was brought up with um single mom she worked all her life we didn't rest it's not the culture that I was brought up in either but you've turned it into a positive and you've changed your lifestyle so tell me about how you relax and rest now well I think from listening to what Claudia was saying I'm an

absolute total uh rest cliche um because I am big on the exercise I got a bite which I've developed an ear obsession with um I do pilates I love my sleep I am team bath all the way yeah very relaxing my friends are gonna hoot because they tease me for loving a bath. They just don't understand why I don't get a shower. I love it. I love taking my dog for a walk. I love relaxing with the TV. I'm currently catching up with Happy Valley. I've learned to breathe, which sounds ridiculous. But another sign for me was I was shallow breathing all the time. I just literally wasn't properly taking a breath in or out. And so I've just kind of relaxed the fight or flight mode to a huge degree. It sounds great. I can tell by the way that you're talking about it,

that it's something that has changed your life for the better. Marion, it's been great to talk to you. Thank you for coming onto the programme. That was journalist and podcast co-host Marion Jones. I just want to invite Claudia Hammond back into the discussion because, Claudia, you have a prescription for rest, as it were, and you recommend people to have a rest box. Is that right? Yeah. So one of the things you can do if you find it difficult to remember to rest or to remember what things you might find restful is to get a box, like some people might have seen this done with a sort of happiness box or well-being box with things that make them happy. But instead, get a box and put things you associate

with rest in it. So, you know, I really like crochet, so I might have a crochet hook and some wool or a book of short stories, say, and some bubble bath, because those are all things that I find restful. So that you've got that box so that you can then turn to that if you feel in need of some rest. And what I'm suggesting people do is to try to find 15 minutes, to prescribe themselves 15 minutes of rest each day if they can, and to work out what are the two or three activities that truly make you feel rested and stop those things whirring around in your mind? And people, I can imagine, may be thinking, oh, but, you know, particularly if you're caring for someone else, for kids or adults and working, then there is just no time for this at all.

But even micro breaks throughout the day, where they would just say, lean their head back in their chair and shut their eyes for a while, or doodle for a bit or look out of the window or go make a hot drink and bring it back to their desk. And if they did this, each hour at the end of the day, their levels of well being were higher. And one thing that's been found in research is that we often put off our breaks until we've done things, especially if we're up to a deadline. If we're up against a deadline, we think, oh, I know what I'll do. I'll go and make myself a cup of tea when I've done this. Actually, at the moment that you've got the deadline, that's when you need to be able to concentrate hardest and you'll concentrate

hardest if you've just had a two minute break. So that might be the moment, not a deadline so that you miss women's hour, of course. But if you possibly can to have that break beforehand instead, that can make you feel a bit better. But also if you are really, really busy, you can spot some of the wasted time and reframe that as rest as well. So if you've missed a parcel and you've got to go and queue at the delivery office and there's a queue for 10 minutes, you think, how annoying is that? If somebody were to say to you, you can just rest now for 10 minutes and watch the world go by, you might look at it differently. So reframing wasted moments is another way of building some rest in and noticing that perhaps you're getting a tiny bit more rest than you think. Claudia, thank you so much for joining us. A big thank you to all of my guests on the programme this morning and also to you for listening. I hope

this has given you some ideas and allows you to enjoy a more restful boxing day. Now I'll leave you with the soothing sounds of Debbie Wiseman playing her piece together. Gjennom minne, موسیقی در موسیقی درسته Thank you. you And that's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hi, I'm Andy Oliver and I'd like to tell you all about my Radio 4 series, One Dish. It's all about why you love that one dish, the one that you could eat over and over again without ever getting tired of it. Each week, a very special guest will bring their favourite food to my table and we'll be unpacking the history of it and food psychologist Kimberley Wilson is on hand to talk us through the science bit. What food reminds you of your

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