Woman's Hour - Boys, Lyra McKee, Perinatal suicide, South African elections

Episode Date: April 29, 2024

Catherine Carr has two teenage sons and, through talking to them and to other parents of teenaged boys, she became aware that boys were experiencing confusing and often troubling messages about their role in society. Catherine decided to speak to boys directly and, in a series which is running all week on Radio 4, About the Boys features the voices of teenage boys around the country discussing topics like sex and consent, masculinity, friendship, life online and education. She joins Clare McDonnell to talk about what she has learned.The trial of three men charged with the murder of Belfast journalist Lyra McKee begins today. Lyra McKee died aged 29 in April 2019 after being hit by a bullet during rioting in Londonderry/Derry. Her death made headlines all over the world, and her funeral was attended by hundreds of people, while thousands more watched online. BBC Ireland Correspondent Jennifer O'Leary speaks to Clare from outside court in Belfast.Perinatal suicide, while thankfully rare, is the leading cause of maternal death in the UK. A new study from King’s College London is the first of its kind to focus on the causes. The perinatal period runs from the start of pregnancy to a year after giving birth – and the suicide rates among these women has recently risen. Clare speaks to Dr Abigail Easter, the lead researcher, and Krystal Wilkinson, who shares her own experience.This week marks 30 years since South Africa’s first democratic elections following the end of apartheid. Millions of South Africans braved long queues to take part after decades of white minority rule which denied black people the right to vote. Clare talks to the BBC's Nomsa Maseko about her own memories of 30 years ago, and what has happened in her country since.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Clare MacDonald and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. This morning we will be marking the beginning of the trial of three men for the murder of Lyra McKee, the journalist killed in Northern Ireland five years ago. Also, if you're a new mum, does the Instagram gloss of being a new parent often projected back at you through accounts

that document daily sleep cycles, trips to the supermarket, walks in the park, bear absolutely no relation to the much darker feelings you are experiencing right now? If that is the case, then please do take heart. You are not alone. We're here with advice on what to do if your mental health deteriorates. We're going to be hearing from the lead researcher

of the first study of its kind on perinatal suicide. That's when it occurs during pregnancy or within the first year of having a baby and what more can be done to try to prevent this. It's also 30 years since South Africa's first democratic elections took place, since the end of apartheid. BBC correspondent Nomsa Maseko remembers that day well. As a young girl, she got up at 5am and crossed the road to the polling station just opposite her house with her mother, where thousands have been queuing through the night.

Now, Nomsa has a six-year-old daughter herself, so what kind of future awaits her? And did democratic freedom for the black majority bring economic freedom too? After nine long years, a woman in Amsterdam has won her battle with Amsterdam City Council to build more public toilets for women and disabled people. She's called her to peening and was desperate.

On her way home from a night out back in 2015, and with the nearest public toilet for women being two kilometres away, she decided to nip into an alleyway and relieve herself. That resulted in a 140 euro fine. In fact, the city offered 35 public urinals for men and only three toilets for women in Amsterdam. Quite shocking, isn't it? So what are your thoughts on this?

Do you have enough public toilets in your area, enough for women? Would you even use one? What about at stations or stadia or theatres? A penny for your thoughts on spending a penny, which is what we're asking you today. You can text the programme. The number is 84844. Texts are going to be charged at your standard message rate. Or on social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour.

And you can email us, of course, as ever, through our website. And as a mother of teenage boys myself, I will be all ears when presenter Catherine Carr joins me in the studio. Catherine has two teenage sons, and she became aware that boys were experiencing troubling messages ears when presenter Catherine Carr joins me in the studio. Catherine has two teenage sons and she became aware that boys were experiencing troubling messages about their role in society. So she decided to speak to boys directly in her series, which is running all week on Radio 4. It's called About the Boys. You'll hear the voices of teenage boys around the country discussing

topics like sex and consent, masculinity, friendship, life online and education. And Catherine asks what parents and women and girls might learn from these conversations. All on the way here on Woman's Hour. But let's begin with the trial of three men charged with the murder of Belfast journalist Lyra McKee. It's due to start later today. Lira died aged 29 in April 2019 after being hit by a bullet during rioting in Londonderry. Her death made headlines all over the world and a funeral was attended by hundreds of people which thousands more watched online. Joining me now from outside the court in Laganside in Belfast is BBC

Ireland correspondent Jennifer O'Leary. Jennifer, welcome to the programme. What do we know at this stage about what happened on the day that Lear died in Derry back in 2019? Good morning. Well, on the night that Lear O'McKee was shot dead, she was in the Cregan estate of Londonderry because police were in that area following an intelligence-led operation as part of a hunt for weapons and ammunition. I mean they were concerned they could be used in the days ahead to attack officers and a riot broke out and Leira and other people were standing close to police vehicles. So one reporter at the scene at the time said a gunman came around the corner

and fired shots indiscriminately towards police vehicles. Now bear in mind that it wasn't just police rioters and journalists like Leah mckee who were who were in the area there were a number of families reporters there said at the time that had spilled out on the street to see what was happening so there were young people there was children on the street but the the bullets that struck and wounded leah mckee were aimed at police officers and she was standing close to that police Land Rover. She was wounded, taken to hospital where she died a short time later. Now, we're more than five years on from the day that she died and it's taken a long time to get to this point in terms of a murder trial underway because of the because of the extensive police

operation and investigation into the events of that night and also the the legal process in Northern Ireland can be can be slow and can be challenging at times but like you said it's getting underway getting underway this morning what do we know about the men charged with her murder, Jennifer? Well, we know that there are three men charged with the murder. Another seven men are set to appear in court here in Belfast, Lackenside's court, later this morning over charges connected to disorder in Derry on the same date. Now, separate to this morning's trial, remember that in the wake, days after the shooting dead of Leora McKee, who was only 29,

was one of Northern Ireland's most promising young journalists. At the time, days after, a statement given to a local paper claimed responsibility, a dissident Republican organisation claimed responsibility for what had happened. Now, just so listeners are clear, dissident Republicans in Northern Ireland are those who did not agree with the Good Friday Belfast peace agreement and sought, as they see it, to continue a violent armed campaign aimed

mainly at the moment against police officers and serving Catholic officers of the Police Service of Northern Ireland. You may recall there were quite powerful pictures in the days also after Lear and McKee's shooting because a political party sought to justify the use of violence and what happened was a number of friends of Lear's went to the offices of that political party in Derry and you might recall that they smeared their hands in red paint and they smeared it on the walls of the political party. Now, that is a strong, that was a strong and quite a brave statement to make at that time. But clearly, you know, five years on,

the pain and the grief of Lear's loss is felt by her family and by her many friends. It was an event that was credited, Jennifer, wasn't it, with breaking a political deadlock at Stormont. Such was the emotion in Northern Ireland at the time. I remember her funeral being televised live and the priest who was conducting that service making quite a political statement from the pulpit

and everybody raising to their feet in the congregation and applauding him. Does her story still have a strong impact? Yeah, I mean, the dreadful poignancy of her story is that Lear, you know, she described herself as a ceasefire baby. You know, she was a young woman who grew up in Northern Ireland in the 1990s at a time, you know time when peace was beginning to dawn in places, in areas of her city and in other parts of Northern Ireland

where there had been such violence for so many years. So, you know, on paper, she was someone who was supposed to be immune to the types of violence that saw her lose her life. And, you know, politics in Northern Ireland, to the types of violence that saw her lose her life. And, you know, politics in Northern Ireland, you know, many will understand when I say this, you know, politics here is defined by division.

But her shooting, her killing saw, you know, six of the biggest political parties here unite in rejecting what happened and those responsible for what they described as a heinous crime. And even the Prime Minister at the time, Theresa May, described it as shocking and truly senseless. I mean, Lear was only 29. She had her whole life in front of her and she was on the brink of becoming engaged to her partner, Sarah. I mean, she was doing what every young person of that age does, and she was living her life, and she goes out to follow up, as journalists do,

in terms of writing, and she loses her life. And, yeah, no, the story and Lear and her words still resonate. I think that they will for many, many years to come. Jennifer, just finally, can you take us through what is expected to happen today? Well, we know that three men are set to be charged with her murder. Another seven men are set to be charged with disorder on the evening that she died. Now we do expect it to get underway shortly in court here. We don't know in terms of will the full trial get underway today or will legal argument delay it for another couple of days but like I said it is finally getting underway five years after the event

that saw Leora McKee, who was only 29 years old, lose her life. And what is the atmosphere like there? Well, it's busy in the courts this morning. I'm standing just outside. There is a fairly extensive police presence, given the high-profile nature of this case. And there are other cases kind of going on as well inside the courts. And Monday mornings, as you'd expect, is busy. But it will become apparent later on in terms of how the trial will continue.

And we'll know more, further details later this morning. Jennifer, thank you so much for joining us. That is BBC Ireland correspondent Jennifer O'Leary talking to us from outside the court in Laganside in Belfast where three men charged with the murder of Belfast journalist Lyra McKee. That trial is due to start later today. Now this week, Radio 4 is running a series of programmes about boys,

how they experience the world we live in and how they are shaped by modern and frequently online notions of masculinity. Presenter Catherine Carr has two teenage sons and through talking to them and to other parents of teenage boys she became aware that boys were experiencing confusing and often troubling messages about their role in society. Catherine decided to speak to boys directly and in a series which is running all week on Radio 4 it's called About the Boys. It features the voices of teenage boys around the country discussing topics like sex and consent, masculinity,

friendship, life online and education. And what might parents and women and girls learn from these conversations? Catherine Carr joins me in the studio now. Good morning, Catherine. Good morning. Great to have you here. Mother of teenage boys myself. So I'm fascinated to hear what you discovered. Let's go to your experience directly, first of all. What kind of conversations were you having with your sons? Is that where this whole process began? I mean, they would kill me if I said it was all to do with them. It's not. It's to do with them a little bit, of course, because, you know, kids come home from school, they come to the dinner you at 11 20 p.m at night when something's on their hearts and their minds um but there was a few little tidbits that they shared from school um but coupled more with chats with friends i would say and one conversation sticks out in particular a very good friend talking about her boys who were slightly older than mine at the

time so maybe 16 17 and we were talking about um sex and relationships in teenagers and she said you know my son has told me that it's quite normal or quite acceptable now for boys to video themselves asking for consent before anything sexual happens or even leaving the phone recording for the entire time and I thought whoa hold on a second this is troubling on so many levels. And as with the whole series, this isn't just troubling for the boys. It's not a silo that boys live in. It's girls and boys living together. And I thought, that's actually horrifying.

And that was the time I started thinking, you know what? I'm going to read a bit more about this and look into the research and start talking to my own boys a little bit more. And the more I talked, the more these sorts of, not total patterns, not everybody fits into a mould, of course, but these sorts of themes emerged that boys seem to be dying to talk about. So I thought, this sounds like something I could make or do, seeing as I'm a mum of teenage boys, yes, but also someone who owns a microphone. Yeah, well, you've done a fantastic job. We'll get on to listening in on those conversations on consent in a moment. How did you find the teenage boys to talk to you? Well, once I decided on the themes, and they did change a little bit,

because once I went out to talk to the boys, and I was really clear from the outset that I wanted the boys to be the stars of the show, and they are. If they told me that I was barking up the wrong tree, like a silly middle-aged mum, then I would go and find another tree. So, you know, one of the ideas I thought, I'll talk about role models, that sounds super. Then I went out to talk to boys and they sort of looked at me like, I don't know what you're talking about. I do, but it's also not very exciting. So that changed into, let's talk about ideas of masculinity, which, as you reference in your introduction, you know, they're familiar with influencers online selling them ideas,

often quite nefarious and quite wrong-headed and quite dangerous ideas about masculinity. So they got that. So once I'd got my five topics, as I say, I wanted the boys to be the stars of the show, but I also am not into creating dramatic audio just so that people have, like, crazy clips to share. I wanted to tell the truth.

So I wanted to find normal boys, boys who were happy being boys, boys who were struggling being boys, boys who were curious, all of the mix. And I wanted it to fit what researchers before me have found through years and years and years of qualitative and quantitative academic research. So I sort of talked to some experts first off tape, got the gist of what was going on, then spoke to tons of boys and then wanted to be honest about a what the boys had said, but be what was going on really broadly. So I wasn't creating a sort of pearl clutching collection of horror stories. That's not what I'm about. Yeah, what do you want to have information

that's meaningful and useful? And is it and that's my next question, really, because they have to be honest with you. So how easy was it for them to open I said, are you saying the word text as a verb because you think I won't understand Snapchatting someone? And they said, yes, very much. But apart from, you know, they translated a bit. But actually, you know, once I'd got the themes that I'd already kind of divined were going to be fruitful and boys were going to be keen to talk about, I was absolutely amazed at the openness of these kids. And I had a wonderful time. I went to Rochdale and Manchester and Bradford and Carmarthen. And I went down to Dartmoor and I went to Cambridge and I went to London. And we sent recorders out, thank you to the Boys Brigade, to Glasgow and other places in London. So we went to a lot of places and I absolutely loved it. The boys were amazing and they talked more candidly and more openly and more vulnerably about things like sex and consent and

friendship and feelings and relationships than a lot of adults I know. Well listen we're going to hear clips from those conversations now. Now let's start with this clip um from a 17 year old boy talking you've mentioned this already talking about consent let's have a listen most of the time i've spoken about this to friends it's like they're scared to even attempt anything because they're like even if they do consent what am i going to do if they just say nah right after i have one friend who said he got recording but that's just because they were like deep into a relationship i feel like if you did that with somebody you just met like it's not very common but like the night before you can't really say can you record this

it sounds a bit a bit iffy yeah it would be an ideal situation if that was the norm but you've got to record yeah or just evidence of consent without just being somebody's word i mean what i find shocking about that is the fact that it's they feel that they need to i mean we'll get on to like letting the you know letting the camera run for for whatever happens afterwards which is a whole other ball game but that they must be so worried then about what might come back at them further down the line is that what you got from that yeah i did and i think you look we've heard on the news and even this morning i think there's an announcement about what rishi want rishi sunak wants to do about smartphones we've heard a lot about smartphones and online and social media and how that colors all of our lives and how it

exaggerates things and how it spreads information and how it makes us think certain things are normal we compare our insides to people's outsides constantly. And with boys, with this issue of consent, what happens is if a boy in a city or a town is falsely accused, let's say nothing actually happened, but the word is out, that spreads like wildfire on Snapchat. And it leads to the cancellation effectively of that boy. They might have to, this is what the lawyer who works defending boys in these situations told me, they might have to leave school. An investigation must happen. They go to parties, no girls turn up to those parties. They go to school, nobody will talk to them. As the lawyer said, people would rather side with a liar than a potential rapist. So what that does is even if it's just one case, so really rare

compared to let's not forget the number of sexual assaults which do happen at schools and college, mainly against women. I'm not pitting people against each other. I never would do that. I think we need these conversations to make it better for all young people. But if that does happen, what that does for all those kids who are networked, like intricately, aren't they on social media, they know these stories. That means the fear of God in some boys is, well, I don't want to be in the same situation as that boy. So I now am very reticent about making a move. Because what if that's misconstrued too, and I end up as the next person who's effectively ostracised? I mean, obviously, you've touched on this, the boys are very worried about consent on Women's App, we frequently

report sexual assault perpetrated by boys and men. And I guess from that lens, it's quite good that they are taught about consent. But do you think that they are paralysed with fear now? I mean, I don't want to be all sort of hysterical about it. I don't think they all are all paralysed with fear now? I mean, I don't want to be all sort of hysterical about it. I don't think they all are all paralysed with fear. And I'm not a boy. I've never been a boy. I'm not a man. So I can't really sort of generalise.

But the boys I spoke to, and specifically I went to two schools where they were doing excellent work, one with Brooks Advisory and one with an author called Benjamin Dunks, who wrote a book on intimacy. They were unclear about how to have, and the lawyer said the same, quite sort of detailed conversations like, I'm going to kiss this girl at a party. It's clear we fancy each other. We can read body language. So they're having a kiss and then maybe they think, am I allowed to do anything else? And what do you do in that moment? You've had a couple of beers maybe or whatever. Do you say, is it okay if I touch your boob or do this? Or is that awkward?

Do you kill the moment? Are they going to laugh at you? Or is that actually what we need? Do we need to get that granular? Maybe we do. And I think having the conversations about the sorts of conversations that maybe we need to have is like the first step. Yes. Now, you also mentioned this.

You talked to the boys about the messages they were receiving about masculinity, especially some of the influencers online who are very powerful. And then there is constantly. Here's another clip on that topic from a 17-year-old boy. On social media, masculinity is expressed to you as strong, having loads of money, being really strong, being tall and that can't be everyone and when you try and be like that then girls say to you they want an emotional person. You just don't know what the hell a man even is in today's societies. This whole patriarchy that the girls complain about hasn't benefited men at all.

It's just plummeted us down into men's mental health. 80% of suicides are men, and I don't understand in what world they think that that means that we have such an advantage. And yes, it has advantaged us in certain ways, but it also, I think, hasn't worked for us at all they don't know how to talk about anything yeah it's just extremely confusing we're going to get on to that in the third clip about how you talk about feelings but i guess you could listen to

that in a couple of ways couldn't you could say oh yes you know that's terrible that um they're kind of boxed into a corner and you know you know quite rightly mentions the suicide rate amongst young men but there's also you know you can hear the argument coming through there that they are hard done by which is what an awful lot of these influencers are saying uh to young men you've got it bad not the women they are pitting men and young boys and girls against one another aren't they they are and interestingly what a thoughtful young man. Yeah. 17 years old, to have the language to put to the feelings, incredible.

And also, as another point in the programme, he says, it shouldn't be girls against boys, it should be boys and girls against the problem. So he hasn't drunk the Kool-Aid in that case. But yes, you know, one of the experts I had on, Elliot Ray, who runs this fantastic organisation for parents of boys' fathers, actually, he said, look, in all of their confusion, if we don't listen to them and have the conversations, it's not really, you know, it's not causal. If we don't, then they will. But if we don't, there has to be the possibility that they then will go and look online for people who are proffering what looks like a really simple one, two, three,

you know, oh, yes, you know, you feel hard done by because of this, don't you? It might not be that they feel all of those hard done by feelings, but it might be a little kernel in there. And if someone else isn't sort of seeing them, and this is what a lot of the people said to me about boys, even the education programme, which I thought was going to be about lots of PE and let's have novels about footballers, none of it. I mean, that was my own prejudice, but it was about boys needing to be seen like girls, seen, heard and understood. So if we aren't doing that for boys in our communities,

in youth clubs, please bring them back in every town. In other organisations that I visit, like Dance United Yorkshire up in Bradford or a cricket club in Cambridge or wherever, if they aren't seen and heard and understood by family and community, they have a flipping phone in their pocket where they will find someone who pretends to understand them for good or for bad. And I don't want to be too hysterical. It's not totally like, that's exactly what's going to happen to every child. But again, that overlay of social media,

and the boys I spoke to, a lot of them, I said, you know, just as a sort of warm-up sometimes, what apps have you got on your phone? What do you use? Snapchat, Instagram, TikTok, da-di-da-di-da. What controls have you got on them? None, really. Are you allowed them in bed at night?

Yes, I am. Right. Right. Yeah, OK. Let's move on then to hear this final clip now. This is, you were talking about feelings and boys opening up and being honest with one another, or to anyone. Here's a clip of a 15-year-old boy in Bradford talking about that.

You're more likely to make friends with another boy in football or rugby or doing something that other males like, but I don't know, being somebody that enjoys feminine things and stuff like that, you're not going to be accepted into them male-dominant things, you know what I mean? You wouldn't share with another boy at school, like, I don't want to do these manly things? No, I'd never do that. I'd never say to another lad,

or I'd just do it because then that would make me look like the bigger person, you know what I mean? They'd then look up to me rather than look down on me. So you'd rather just act than be yourself. So you've pretended a lot? A lot. I have, yeah.

I can't say I haven't. I have. Just to fit into them certain friendship groups and you've got to pretend because if not then you're just going to be I have, yeah. I can't say I haven't. I have, just to fit into them certain friendship groups. And you've got to pretend, because if not, then you're just going to be that person that you was before. Lonely and sad and not having anybody to speak to or any friends. That's quite a heartbreaking thing to listen to, isn't it? There's a lot of masking going on.

I'd really like to be this way, but I can't, so I'll be this way because I'm fitting in. It's so important for teenage boys to talk about their feelings but who are they talking to yeah some of the boys I talked to had good friends and often later in adolescence they'd sort of they'd gone through that 13 to 15 massive massive friendship group sort of a bit hierarchy and a bit oh and they'd come out the other side and found their tribe um but a lot of them from, I mean, all of them said to me, even without prompting, that they find it hard to talk about their feelings. Another 13-year-old in Keithley said,

people don't think we're soft inside, but we are. Another boy in Rochdale said they expect us to be made of stone, but we're not. So they, and one of them said really tellingly such a small thing. Imagine if a girl cried in a classroom. Everyone would be like, oh no, what's the matter? oh he said and if a boy broke down he said I don't think we get the same response and I thought that's a really clear example from their world of why they don't feel they can be vulnerable I mean I would say about that boy he's one of the ones who went to Dance United Yorkshire he now has a scholarship to Northern Dance School so he has as I say been

seen and heard by an organisation in the community and helped to sort of find his own way. And I would also say these issues aren't totally black and white. They're, of course, like everything else, intersectional. So if you're surrounded by opportunity and people who are alive to these ideas and care about you and have resources to help you, you're likely probably to find people who you might be able to talk about your feelings with so with all these things unfortunately the amount of money and

things like that that you have and where you might be born does play into it it sounds like an incredible education that you've had yourself personally and we can all dip into so if parents or boys take one thing away from your series what would would you want it to be? I think, don't be disheartened, despite what we've talked about. You know, they're big subjects. I do sort of crack up with all of these boys as well. I've got serious cases of giggles in a lot of headmasters' offices, chatting to groups of Year 10 boys and stuff. I think the boys are great.

I think the scaffolding that we're putting around them in terms of controlling social media and the opportunities we give them, like youth clubs and other things like that, are not really serving them well enough. It's been absolutely wonderful having you in the Woman's Hour studio. Thank you so much for joining us, Catherine Carr. And if you would like, well, actually, Catherine's back in the Woman's Hour studio on Friday. We will have a phone in about this very subject, about boys. So do listen on Friday and please email us with your thoughts and experiences of bringing up boys

and any questions you'd like to be explored as well. And Catherine's series about the boys starts on Radio 4 at 1.45pm today. Catherine, thanks so much for dropping by. Thank you very much. Now, lots of you getting in touch on the issue of lack of public toilets. We're talking about this because a woman in Amsterdam, she's hurt her peening. She basically took a pee in

public because there were so few toilets in Amsterdam and she got a fine and lots of protests, lots of petitions. She's had that overturned and a commitment that there will be more public toilets in Amsterdam, which is quite something. Lots of you getting in touch on this one. Thank you so much. David says on the subject of availability of toilets. This is also a problem for people like myself who've had a stoma reversal, which leads to sometimes challenging problems. My days have to be planned around availability of facilities. And that is not easy easy given how few public toilets

there are there are also issues when you have ridiculous situations such as the closing of toilets at four o'clock in the afternoon this texter ellie hello ellie good morning i think there should definitely be more public toilets in london there should be at least more schemes for cafes and pubs to allow you to use their toilet. Very good idea, Ellie. I have to plan my day around if there will be toilets nearby or not. Kate in London, hello Kate, says there are nowhere near enough toilets for women in stadia, theatres or public venues. The women's queues are unacceptably long and there's an argument for making all or most of public facilities unisex. I'm starting to feel it is a real human rights issue.

Kate, I was at Stamford Bridge for the Chelsea Barcelona game at the weekend and the queues for the toilets. I mean, I missed the start of the second half because it went on so long. And Gemma in Paisley says there are a woeful lack of public toilets in general. I don't understand why they can't all be gender neutral secure with lockable doors just make them safe and accessible for everyone thank you so much to keep your views coming in on this or talk to us about boys as well if you'd like to after katherine's fascinating conversation you can text me on this number 84844. We are here at Woman's Hour. Now, moving on to talk to you.

Essentially, if you're a new mother, talk about being a new mother often comes alongside lots of gushing about the amazing bond with your newborn baby, how much they sleep, how much you don't,

who in the family they resemble. But one thing we don't talk about as much is the mental health of pregnant women and new mums. And what happens when that deteriorates quickly? Perinatal suicide, whilst thankfully rare, makes up 39% of maternal deaths in the UK. That's deaths that happen within 42 days of the end of pregnancy. So why does it happen and what can we do? Well, King's College London have conducted the first study of its kind into perinatal suicide,

looking at the experiences and thoughts of women who have attempted to take their own lives. Delighted to say, joining me now in the Woman's House studio, lead researcher Dr Abigail Easter and Crystal Wilkinson who herself made a suicide attempt not long after giving birth. Crystal, thank you so much for joining me now. Abigail, let us come to you first. Let's talk about this research. I mean it's the first in-depth study of its kind which is good but slightly worrying because this is something that's been going on for quite some time. Yes I think as you as you say we know we've known for a long time that suicide is one of the leading causes of death during pregnancy and the first year postnatal but really there hasn't been that much research that has actually gone out and

spoken to people who might be experiencing these difficulties. So we were really wanting to kind of give a voice to those who had experienced mental health difficulties and those who had experienced suicide attempts. So we could really kind of try to understand what might be going on for them in their lives at that time and what types of support they might need to kind of help them through those situations. How did it work? Who did you speak to? So we spoke to 11 women who had attempted suicide, either during their pregnancy or postnatally. And we conducted very in-depth interviews. So some of the interviews were an hour to two hours long, really,

to understand what things were like for them before pregnancy, what things were like during pregnancy and um in the postnatal period um i mean 11 i mean you must have got some very very insightful um research there but is that enough of a sample to get a real picture of what's going on so i think what it does is it gives us a really in-depth picture so we we have um quite good statistics at a population level um to know kind of what the numbers are, for example. So it's part of the picture, really, I think. And it's that in-depth part that kind of supports the other research and really gives us an understanding into what it's like for women. And what did they tell you?

So we found that there were really three commonalities across the experiences for these women. Many of them went in to pregnancy with trauma and adversity. So some had experienced mental health difficulties, domestic violence, for example. So already they were having some challenges before the start of their pregnancy. And then they often spoke about kind of this disillusionment with motherhood. So really feeling that their expectations weren't being met. It was that there was a mismatch between their experiences of motherhood, severe sleep deprivation, loneliness, for example, that was very challenging. And it was that mismatch with how they expected it

or thought things might be. And this typically led to them feeling quite desperate in despair. They often spoke about feelings of kind of being trapped within motherhood and not seeing really another way out. Crystal, let's bring you in there. I think what Gabigil was touching on there, you kind of ticked a lot of those boxes because you came into pregnancy and motherhood with a history of of mental health issues and it was something that was it was in your family on a wider level as well wasn't it yeah so my mum had had severe perinatal mental

illness um after both of her pregnancies and she was hospitalized both times um she we lost her when i was a teenager um and i had had prior mental health problems you know various different prior mental health problems so yeah absolutely on our radar um quite a privileged position i guess in that because of that um it was on our radar you know i've spoke to a lot of people and it's just not on their radar at all um but we'd um actually spoke to a specialist perinatal psychiatrist um even before getting pregnant. You know, it's kind of this is a history. How do we go about this? Do I need to be on maybe medication? So very, very planned. She was fantastic.

She even sort of gave us a tour of the mother and baby unit before enjoying pregnancy. Had a plan that, you know, I'd be not taking any medication during pregnancy, but they put me on preventative um medication at birth um and i'd be closely monitored um and my pregnancy was fantastic my birth was fantastic and the first three weeks were fantastic completely in love you know all that bond that rush of love that everyone talks about um until my husband went back to work and it was me that was responsible for a baby and that's kind of where you know I just fell apart because um I don't know everything I had in my mind that I'd be in control we'd do these activities you

know I'd know what I'm doing um I just felt wasn't there I was just felt completely out of control completely lost um really scared um and it just deteriorated very very quickly I didn't want to be on my own with him so I was like driving around to my dad's house or friend's house just to have somebody for a few hours that it wasn't just me in desperation asking

please let me go in the mother and baby unit and they did, they admitted me and I think at that point I was expecting that I would feel better that it'd all be sorted out quite quickly and I didn't feel that straight away. I felt just even more kind of isolated, even more scared. And I think the big thing for me was that I couldn't really articulate

what was going on in my head, and it wasn't what I expected. So I'd expected depression, or I'd expected even like a manic sort of feeling, but it was just fear. It was just, I can't be a mum, I don't know how to be a mum I've lost my identity there's no going back trapped exactly what what you said was one of the themes and when I was sorry I'll stop talking no no carry on but yeah when I was in the mother and baby unit I was desperate to be out so I'd be like trying to they said I could go home for weekends with my husband um so so you're kind of like, I don't want to seem too bad,

so they don't let me go home. So, you know, and then when I was at home with my husband, I'd be like, I need to be back in the modern baby. And I just felt there was no way out, you know, nothing. I couldn't see anything getting better. I thought they're never going to let me be a mum. You know, my husband's probably going to see that I'm no good and leave me. I'm never going to be able to go back to work.

Yeah, and that kind of just... And how did you break that cycle? You say you were on medication post-birth, is that correct? So how did it finally level out? It was difficult to know. It was a long process, you know, it was a long process and lots of support from different people. So I'm very fortunate that I've got an amazing close family and friends.

You know, a number of medical professionals were involved. Medication was involved. I actually had a really, really supportive return to work. So that's kind of one of the things I'm trying to talk about at the moment is like workplaces need to be doing more about this. And managers to be aware, because I think, think you know if any one of those relationships or parts of my identity had been taken away from me in that rebuilding phase you know I would have probably tried again and I might have been successful with with you know ending my life so yeah I think it's it was a long process it did take a long time how do you feel now

I feel like I'm in the best part of my life ever the bond I have with my little boy is incredible he is the love of my life you know I'm so proud of him and I don't know how we have the bond that we have because I wasn't there you know at the beginning for a lot of the time um and even when I was there it was like his dad was his person who looked after him and I was kind of trying to help a bit. But, you know, and now I feel like every other mum, you know, that I see. And yeah, I just if anyone is listening who can relate to anything of what I said, just please hold on and please talk to somebody because it does get better. This is why your research is so important, Abigail, because it's that, isn't it? It's saying almost the unsayable and people

need to hear it because a lot of people feel it and it's so frightening but they feel they can't say it yeah I think it's so important that we're talking about this and and that's why doing interviews and really in depth it just really kind of brings that experience to to life and Crystal's experiences really kind of match a lot of what we found within the research. And are you going in depth to find out medically about what's going on with somebody as well or is it just you're just looking at the kind of psychological impacts or the two connected? So I think our research is really focusing on what can healthcare professionals do, what support and what peer support can be received during that time.

There is a lot of research that's going on to look at what factors might be contributing to this. And we know that it needs to be a multi-layered approach. The support from psychologists, but also medication might be important. And we know that women may be likely to stop medication quite abruptly during pregnancy due to kind of fears that that might be harmful for them or their baby. So what we would say is, you know, if people are experiencing these difficulties, if they're taking medication, that they speak to their GP, and they speak to their

midwife and really kind of open up about how they're feeling and do you think there's enough education amongst health professionals are to spot the signs because we know that well human beings but women especially are very good at masking things and there's so much pressure isn't there I can see you nodding your head crystal about how to kind of present I mean I've been I remember those days very very well as a new mother myself it's just like this whirlwind lands in your life and you don't know which way to turn, but you know what the expectation is,

but you often don't feel like that. Do you think there's enough kind of education amongst us, as I said, health professionals on spotting people who are looking like they're coping, but they're not really at all? No. I mean, I'm speaking to a lot of people. It's not just my own experience, but I'm speaking to a lot of people um you know it's not just my own experience but speaking to a lot of people and then i've been really fortunate to to attend some peer support um so action on postpartum psychosis is an amazing charity that kind of specializes in

that kind of quick onset quite extreme um form of mental illness um and you know the stories that people tell are that you know yeah it's not it's not being picked up and that and you know the stories that people tell are that you know it's not it's not being picked up and that people you know the range of symptoms and the range of things that you're thinking or or seeing they're not easy to articulate um and you are really really scared of the consequences if you do articulate you don't really know who you can trust and because we don't talk about these more extreme forms of perinatal mental illness in in pregnancy you know in your antenatal classes those kind of things people just illness in pregnancy, you know, in your antenatal classes, those kind of things. People just assume the worst that, you know, I'm evil.

Social services are going to take my baby away if I admit this stuff, you know, or I'm going to get locked up in a psych ward forever. You know, it is those worst case scenarios because we don't have that narrative. We don't, you know, unless you are aware of these charities, which, you know, you might, I wasn't, I certainly wasn't, even though we were expecting me to be poorly. Could anybody have reached you then at your darkest moment or just having that knowledge,

say that had been in an antenatal class, look, this is, don't panic, this is a very rare thing, but it can happen. So you're talking to partners and you're talking to the pregnant mother as well. Do you think just knowing that there was those support groups around could have helped you yeah yeah I think because you know I've historically been really supported through various mental health challenges and I have felt comfortable

to tell people and I've never been discriminated against or had a bad consequence you know a lot of people have a bad experience when they tell somebody about mental illness I never have but it was just this was so frightening and it was so different. And it was that I just assumed I'm just a really, really bad person. I'm a really, really bad mother. And so, you know, I think there was a lot more awareness and we thought this is that matches what these people have been saying they felt. Crystal, just final word to you then, what needs to change going forward? So I think it's, you know, in part it's the awareness and particularly awareness of some of the things that we've highlighted in the research, awareness from healthcare professionals about this, but also it's not always possible to recognise these symptoms in yourself. So if your family or friends are noticing that you're kind of disengaging from motherhood that you're kind of isolating yourself that might be a warning sign for for getting more help and it's okay to talk talk about these things oh i should ask your your son how old is he now crystal five and a half going on to six wow what's his name william william listen your story is incredible you're incredible and we thank you so much for coming on to woman's Hour and sharing it with us

because you will have made a massive difference to many people listening to this so thank you so much we really really do appreciate you dropping by both of you thank you so much Crystal Wilkinson

and Dr Abigail Easter and if you have been affected by anything you've heard in that conversation there are support links and resources on our website thank you both for coming by uh don't forget you can talk to me about that you can text the program 84844 if anything of what we've just discussed rings any bells with you we would uh really love

to hear your experiences we've been talking about uh lack of access to public toilets there was a woman in amsterdam who basically got a fine for spending a penny in the street there was nowhere else to go there were three public toilets for women in amsterdam and and uh well it goes into double figures when you look at the toilets for men so she basically took on the local authority and won and now they've made a commitment to supply more public toilets so what is it like where you are dies in north yorkshire hello die hi claire i believe having public toilets available for women and men

is a basic human right. Our county council wants to close them to save money, which is totally unacceptable. It's not fair to ask local businesses to fill this gap. They need to be publicly accessible. This is from Annabelle.

Hello, Annabelle. Regarding unisex toilets, I don't enjoy using them at all. They are invariably smelly and dirty. Men never seem to have been taught how to pee neatly. Please, let's have more women-only toilets. Alison says this.

Hi, if the stadium mostly female, I go to the men's loos in the stadium I go to. There's usually at least one cubicle and you have to go in and hold your breath. And finally, Philippa in Notting I go to. There's usually at least one cubicle and you have to go in and hold your breath. And finally, Philippa in Nottingham says this, I think it's a basic human right

to be able to use the loo when you're out and about. And the lack of public loos is horrendous. I'm an open-minded person, but recently used a mixed sex toilet and I felt extremely uncomfortable. I didn't expect to feel that way, but we'll look for women only toilets now

why can't we have three options men women and mixed that is from philippa in nottingham thank you for all your contributions you can keep it coming in uh the text number is 84844 now big week in south africa it marks 30 years since South Africa's first democratic elections following the end of apartheid. Millions? And are women in South Africa as engaged with politics as they were 30 years ago? I'm delighted to say the BBC correspondent Nomsa Maseko, based in Johannesburg, joins me in the studio. She has a documentary on BBC World Service looking at the country's relationship with democracy today and exploring her own personal experience. She was just 12 years old when she went with her mum to watch her cast her first vote 30 years ago. And Nomsa's with me now. Hello. Hello. Fantastic to have you. Thank you so much for having me. I cannot believe it's been 30 years. Take us back to when you were that young child and that moment that your mother crossed the road

because the polling station was just across the road from where you lived, wasn't it? Correct, yes, yes. And it still is. And she will be voting there on the 29th of May, you know, where she voted for the first time. And this time around, she's actually going to be taking

my six-year-old daughter with her, you know, through that entire journey. But 1994, 27th of April, entering the polling station and the silence, you know, standing next to my mom in that polling booth. And I saw tears in her eyes. And as she, you know, meticulously and slowly went through that long ballot paper. And even her hand was shaking, you know, and when she put that cross, you know, next to her preferred candidate, she folded it. And she said to me, this right here is my get out of jail card. Get out of apartheid. So she saw it as a life changing event.

Before we go forward, let's go back. You have brothers. What was life like for them? What was life like for you leading up to that day? You know, leading up to the day was tense. There was a lot of uncertainty about, you know, what was going to happen. But in the years between 1990, 1993, 94, you know, there was a bit of black on black violence between the ANC and the Ingardser Freedom Party, because they had different tactics in how they wanted to oppose

apartheid. And as a result, there was so much violence in the townships, particularly in the east of Johannesburg, where I came from. I remember how my brother would, you know, my mom had a dress that was ready, where my brother would, you know, put on the dress quickly and a wig and a headscarf so that he looks like, you know, part of the girls in the house, because there would be times when apartheid police would just round up teenagers as a form of intimidation so that to ensure that they do not get involved in the anti-apartheid protests.

So that was always there, that we knew that we had to hide my brother. He would have to go into the closet if it was too late then quickly put on a dress and that is how he would be protected in fact we were just talking about that the other day he actually asked my mom mommy where's my wig remember that one polling day is coming just for old time's sake yeah but we joke about it but it's it's that's a funny anecdote but it's a serious point isn't it that you could just be rounded up for doing nothing? know that if they throw two stones on top of the roof, we know it's the police. If they throw four or five, we know it was the people who were supporters of the Ngata Freedom Party. And that's how you know where to hide, you know what to say if you are confronted. From a young age,

I was taught how to minimize the effect of tear gas on the skin, you know, and what to do and what not to do, what to say and what not to say to whoever is asking you who you are and what you are doing here. A young girl, but it was still like that. And I am actually glad that 30 years down the line, those are not the things that I have to teach my six year old now to navigate through. Because, you know, when you look through what we went through at such a young age, that's when you actually get to realize that that was childhood trauma. I was just about to ask you, what kind of effect do you look back on that now, and it was a way of surviving. But what kind of scars has that left with you? Very deep, very deep scars that I am still healing from, that I am still in therapy for. But you ask yourself how many people actually understand that that is what they went through and what it means and how they need to navigate through it now. Because whether we like it or not, it affects your everyday life. You know, when you see in America how and what police are doing, you know, it kind of

takes you back to what South Africa was like and how you would, I would have even, I don't think I'd be alive today if in 1994 I was part of the people who were allowed to vote because I was very much, even though not able to vote, but very much involved in because my uncle was in the Black Consciousness Movement. There would be meetings at his house, secret meetings where there would be anti-apartheid protests and, you know, things that would be planned around there. I remember wanting to be so involved in it, but because of age, it was just easier and safer for me to stay in the house. But as a child, you still expect that you are home alone. You can hear the gunshots outside. You're thinking, is my mom going to come back safe? Is my uncle coming back safe? My brother is at school right now.

Where is he? Is he going to come back safe? At that young age, my sister, my elder sister was a police officer. And during that time, black police officers who lived in townships were considered spies. There were many homes that were petrol bombed because of that, you know. And your sister took that job in part because it was difficult to find other work, wasn't it? She took that job because my mother could not afford to take her to university at the time. And it was much easier for her to take that job because that is the only thing that was available. But it in turn, you know, made it very difficult and unsafe for us to live in that particular place. At some point, we actually had to move.

But because my mother's house was in the main road, so there would always be police patrols taking place there. And, you know, feeling some kind of safety, but at the same time, depending on the kind of the race of the police officer who would be coming, then it, you know, it tells you what it is that you are going to encounter. If it's going to be somebody who's going to be protecting you or it's somebody who is going to be racist towards you. And then you have to change your persona mentally thinking, how am I going to deal with this situation? You spoke about your six-year-old daughter, who's going to be going with her grandmother. It's an incredible story. Talk about the cycle of life. I'm interested because I know you have this documentary coming up on the World Service. She has a very different experience to you, doesn't she, growing up in South Africa today.

For a start, she has white friends, doesn't she? Yeah, which is something that I only encountered when I started high school in 1995, because black kids were now allowed to go to so-called, you know, Model C multiracial schools. She's always had white friends, even our neighbour, you know, is white, and she lives, practically lives in that house. I mean, look at me, this is where I am now. And you know, she's at school today, I know that she will be taken care of by neighbors who are not the same color as her. And I don't have to feel the need to constantly tell her this is what they did. But at the end of the day,

there were lessons. My daughter is very inquisitive. She asks a lot of questions. I at some point told her about apartheid and what it was and what it meant. And I saw how her facial expression changed. And she said to me, Mommy, that makes me very angry. But why were they doing that? Are we safe now? Are they still going to do that now? You know, it's so different to what, you know, was South Africa 30 plus years ago to where we are now, because there's democracy, there's unity, even though right now the gap, the inequality gap is so wide, particularly amongst black communities, that the battle now is between the haves and the have-nots. It's been absolutely fascinating having you in the studio, Nomsa.

I could talk to you for very, very much longer than we have. But thank you so much for joining us and much love to your family. And you can hear Nomsa's documentary on the documentary podcast from the 2nd of May on BBC Sounds. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Almost it for Woman's Hour from today. Just to tell you this,

as talks take place in Canada to develop an international legally binding agreement on plastic pollution tomorrow, I'll be speaking to the director of a new documentary film, which follows 14 women on a mission to gather evidence of plastic waste from the remote North Pacific Ocean. But for now, that's Woman's Hour. That's all from today's Woman's Hour.

Join us again next time. I'm Helen Lewis, and I have a question. What links family WhatsApp dramas? I flounced off after someone made a particularly ignorant comment. Russian state propaganda. It's a very good platform for spreading of this pro-Putin position. And a woman who married an AI. 100% I would never go back to humans ever, ever again.

No idea? Well, they're all examples of how instant messaging has changed the world. Find out more by joining me for my new BBC Radio 4 series, Helen Lewis Has Left the Chat. Subscribe to Helen Lewis Has Left the Chat on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.