Woman's Hour - BRCA1, Open relationships, Wrongly Accused: The Annette Hewins Story

Episode Date: April 25, 2024

The system of one word ratings for schools in England 'should stay' and has 'significant benefits' according to the government. It said the grades, such as 'Inadequate', 'requires improvement' 'good' and "outstanding" gave parents an important summary of local schools. Teaching unions have called for more nuanced ratings  Simon Kidwell  is the President of the school leaders union the NAHT and joins Anita Rani to explain.The Internet Watch Foundation annual report has said that children under six are being manipulated into “disturbing” acts of sexual abuse while parents think they are playing safely on household devices. They say 2023 was “the most extreme year on record”, finding more than 275,000 webpages containing child sexual abuse with a record amount of “category A” material. IWF’s CEO Susie Hargreaves joins Anita to discuss the report’s findings. The deaths of 21-year-old Diane Jones and her two young children, in a house fire in October 1995 shocked the community of Merthyr Tydfil. The police originally thought it was an accident - but in the days following the fire launched a triple murder investigation after petrol was found on the carpet. Just months later, Annette was charged with triple murder, manslaughter and arson with intent to endanger life. She was found guilty with the charge of arson and sentenced to 13 years. After two-and-a-half years, her conviction was overturned - but it troubled Annette until her death in 2017. Annette’s daughter, Nicole Jacob, is delving into her mum’s story in a new podcast, Wrongly Accused: The Annette Hewins Story. Cassie Werber’s new novel Open Season features a romantic relationship between two couples who are exploring the possibilities of open relationships. It’s a world that Cassie herself in familiar with in real-life with her husband, and she joins Anita to discuss the inspiration for her book. Beaux Harris lost her mother, grandmother and aunt to cancers caused by the same gene mutation – called BRCA1. Two years ago, Beaux discovered she has the same BRCA1 gene mutation. Anita talks to Dany Bell from Macmillan and to Beaux about her story and how she’s now chosen to fundraise to pay for preventative treatment. Presented by Anita Rani Producer: Louise Corley Studio Engineer: Bob Nettles

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. You'll have just heard in the news headlines there that it's been announced that one word Ofsted judgments will remain the same. The government have said the grades such as outstanding and inadequate give parents an important summary of the school. I'd like to hear from you about how you feel about it. Do you agree?

Are you parents who've changed address or schools based on the Ofsted result? Are you a head teacher who's had your school downgraded? What impact did that have? Are you a teacher who was hoping for a different outcome? Or are you in agreement that it should remain as it is? We would love to hear your reactions this morning on this. Get in touch in the usual way.

The text number is 84844. You can email me via the website or you can WhatsApp me on 03700 100 444. You can also leave me a voice note if you so wish. Also on the programme, Cassie Werber has written a novel all about two couples in open relationships. Her inspiration, her own open marriage. She'll be telling novel all about two couples in open relationships. Her inspiration? Her own open marriage. She'll be telling me all about both. And has there ever been an event that changed the rest of your life? There's a new BBC Sounds podcast called Wrongly Accused, the Annette

Hewins story, who, as a young mother, was wrongly convicted of arson and manslaughter. She was sentenced to 13 years, served two and a half, during which she was pregnant, had her baby taken away and turned to heroin as a way to cope. She died aged 51. Her daughter is the presenter of the podcast, Exploring Her Mother's Story. Nicole Jacob will be here shortly. That text number once again,

your thoughts and opinions on anything you hear on the programme, always welcome. 84844. But first, the system of one word ratings for schools in England should stay and has significant benefits, according to the government. It said the grades such as inadequate, requires improvement, good and outstanding gave parents an important summary of local schools. The sister of headteacher Ruth Perry, who took her own life after her school was downgraded, said she was deeply upset by the government's response. Here is Julia Waters' response. After all that time, all that commitment, all that talking, all that apparent listening, they're not going to act. They are not going to do the things that they know my family and so many others need and want

to change. Well, teaching unions have called for more nuanced ratings. Simon Kidwell is the president of the School Leaders Union, the National Association of Head Teachers, and joins me now. Simon, welcome to Woman's Hour. Let's start by getting your reaction to the news. Well, I'm hugely disappointed and frustrated because this was a real opportunity to go and do something different.

But sadly, that opportunity has not been taken. So I think we've got a recruitment and retention crisis in our schools. 97% of our NEHT members tell us that the single word judgments need to go. And the government doesn't seem to be able to think differently than what they've been doing for a long time, which is leading to a lot of headteachers leaving or for deputy heads not wanting to become headteachers. Well, the government have said that they feel they have significant benefits.

What do you think they mean by that? Well, I think the government often quote parents and say that parents like the single word judgments because it helps them to choose a school. But actually, when you looked at the parliamentary evidence given by parent kind to the select committee, 61% of parents said that the reports in their current format don't help them identify the

strengths and weaknesses of a report. We also know these reports come around quite infrequently we know that schools some schools have been over 10 years without having an inspection so that doesn't really help parents when that one grade stays with a school for five six sometimes over 10 years so I would argue that these single grades are reductive and don't help parents to choose a school. And what do the headteachers you represent feel about the one word ratings? We really are frustrated by them because we've been working in the system for a number of years and we feel that there's a better way. We feel that there's a better way of informing parents. Parents can read a report and identify what the strengths and weaknesses are.

But actually reducing the complex work of a school into a single grade, I think, is insulting to parents. And 97% of our members in our surveys say that these grades are damaging and need to go. So what's the better way? I think a better way is to go and look at we're calling for more frequent inspection especially around safeguarding we're looking at annual reviews because safeguarding is too important to let it go for four or five years. We're also looking at a more narrative report we're looking at reports which really do go and get underneath the school and talk about what the strengths are and what the weaknesses are because then parents can make an informed decision when they're choosing a school. What do you think parents want to know about schools? Isn't, as you said, you know, a lot

of parents think a one word summary is good. It gives them a good overview. Yeah, I think parents want to know about the quality of the curriculum, the quality of teaching that's going on. I've worked in schools with all grades from inadequate to outstanding and I know the quality of teaching has been pretty similar in those grades and in those schools so I would like an Ofsted system that goes and produces a report which isn't bland which goes and talks about the quality of the curriculum and the quality of teaching and the quality of behaviour. If you are a parent listening it would be good to hear your reaction to this this morning. 84844 is the number to text.

Somebody has just been in touch that just describes themselves as a disappointed teacher, saying, as usual, the government, who seem to know nothing about education, makes the wrong judgement. Keep your thoughts coming in. Is there any chance, Simon, of getting this one-word rating for schools changed?

Well, we know that the shadow governments are certainly talking about that. They're talking about bringing in a report card for schools. So they seem to be knowing that there's a need for change as well. So I think there is an overwhelming call for change. There's a call from the Education Select Committee. There's a call from school leaders, and parents don't particularly want to have a better system for helping them to go and navigate choosing a school. So I think because there is this overwhelming call, the government can't continue to go and bury its head in the sand and carry on doing the same things which are leading to a recruitment and retention crisis. And when we talk to teachers, when we talk to to school leaders Ofsted in its current guise is

certainly driving people out of the profession and stopping people either getting promoted to school leadership positions or choosing teaching as a career. Well why has this happened why is there such a disconnect between what teachers are saying if 97% of your members don't want it to be a one-word judgment and why is there such a disconnect between the government and what teachers want? Yeah, we've worked with one-word judgment for a number of years, but I think what we are seeing is there's a better way. We've been doing this for a number of years,

but we are now seeing judgments which are, I mean, we take the Caversham primary example where some safeguarding administration issues went and tipped that school into inadequate. And then when it was inspected 12 months later, they said the school was solidly good. So we need a way of getting a system which isn't causing such high stakes

and such disastrous consequences of which are happening when schools get an adequate judgment without room to address that quite quickly. More messages coming in from our listeners, Simon. I'm just going to read out a couple. Yet another example of the government assuming all parents are idiots. We can and do understand whole sentences. We do not need just single words.

And a retired teacher called Anne has said, single word offset ratings. Do the government think parents would also like one word judgments on children's performance to replace long end of year reports written by hugely overworked teachers 84844 the number to text um simon whilst you are speaking to me we're all taking in the news of a stabbing at a school in wales today how are head teachers feeling after hearing this news and how might they be reviewing their security measures so our sympathies go out to the community where the incident happened and it's deeply sad to hear about these incidents happening. It is rare

that these incidents happen in our education system and in all schools we have lockdown procedures and I know that schools do drills around these things and we don't know the details of what happened there but we as head teachers we will be making sure that our lockdown procedures are there, that we have them and we make sure that the children understand them without panicking them. Simon Kidwell, thank you so much for joining me this morning. A few more of your messages. As a parent looking at schools I am far more interested in how other parents feel about the school,

how they view the school on a number of factors, not just academic. And none of this is provided by Ofsted. There should be a parental report made for each school available for all to read.

And David, a teacher in Middlesbrough, says a better system would be one that involves inspectors having a proper long-term collaborative relationship with the school, working with them to grow and develop,

not this adversarial system that we have currently. Thank you for your thoughts and messages. You can also email me by going to our website. Now, the Internet Watch Foundation annual report has said that children under six are being manipulated into disturbing acts of sexual abuse while parents think they're playing safely on household devices. They also say 2023 was the most extreme year on record,

finding more than 275,000 web pages containing child sexual abuse with a record amount of what they refer to as Category A material, imagery which can include rape, sadism and bestiality. In case you aren't aware of them, the IWF work toward the identification, removal and reporting of child sexual abuse material online. To discuss these findings, I'm joined by Susie Hargreaves, their CEO. Susie, welcome to Woman's Hour. Good morning, Anita.

I was going to say this will alarm parents, but actually this is the stuff of nightmares. Children under the age of six being manipulated into sexual abuse. How is this happening? How are such young children being accessed, first of all? Well, each year, unfortunately, we're seeing record numbers of online child sexual abuse and last year we focused on the seven to ten and in 2023 we actually saw this massive increase in three to six year olds which I'm sure people listening will think well my goodness that's just not possible so young three year olds online yeah um we took down 2401 uh images of children majority of whom are self-generated content in bedrooms and domestic settings. And about 28% of those 680 of them, there was another sibling in the image. Now, that means that the rest of them, the children were on their own. That doesn't mean they were

necessarily on their own in the room, because the image could have been cropped, there could have been a sibling, another person in the room. But we're seeing very young children, three to six-year-olds. So let me just tell you a bit about how they find this material. Now, they can hear from peers, they can hear from siblings. There are lots of platforms which allow random access for random chat, random use of webcams. And these children will go on these websites and perpetrators will just cast the net wide and every so often they'll get a hit and they'll encourage a child to engage in a sexual activity. They'll trick them, they'll coerce them and the child is totally unaware that that's been

captured and then by the time we see it it's on a child abuse website. What types of acts are we talking about here? Well, we do see, unfortunately, even in the three to six age group, we categorise acts according to categories A to C, according to severity. The majority of the images of that age group were category C, which is naked with exposure on genitals. But we were seeing a number of category A images, which, as you say, include penetration, bestiality, sadism. So children being actively encouraged, even if they're on their own,

and sometimes with siblings, to engage in the very, very worst types of sexual activity. And what types of platforms? Are they going through games? How are they actually contacting three-year-olds? Well, we know, don't we, from the Ofcom data that children now have access, some of them have unfettered access to social media sites and that quarter of children aged five to seven have mobile phones. They will have access to family devices, so they may access their parents' platforms, they may access their parents' they may access their parents or a sibling social media so it can be through social media and it can be through a lot of platforms that perhaps people haven't heard of but they are chat rooms and the peers and the

children will just share ideas about how to access them so of course a three-year-old's not going to go on and find them on their own but a six or seven-year-old can and I know people will know they see children in push chairs on iPads, on phones. Children are increasingly computer literate so you know we have to be aware that they just need to be shown how to get on these then they can do it. But the key is here Anita that we need to ensure that they have proper supervision. Yeah. And we talk about that a lot. And we will talk about what parents can do, because I know that this will be just alarming for them to hear. Are we talking, who's more vulnerable here, girls or boys?

Well, it's mainly girls here. So we see 92% of the three to six year olds are girls. And in fact, in terms of the crime that we see generally, it's a gendered crime. But, you know, putting those three to six-year-olds aside, we've seen an increase in sextortion, which is where children are being blackmailed and encouraged to share sexual images,

then they're being blackmailed, and those are majority older boys. Now more broadly you said that you found 275,000 images of child sexual abuse last year. It's the highest number ever recorded. What's driving this enormous increase? Well sadly it's not 275,000 it's 275,000 web pages. It actually equates to millions of images and videos that we removed because each web page could have one from 1,000 images. So what's driving it? On the positive side, we've got better technology so we can use AI in a positive way

and our technology to go out and proactively find this content and get it removed. And when the tech companies are acting responsibly, they're doing the same. But on the negative side, there are just so many more ways to share this content. And children younger and younger and younger are getting online. And how many people in Britain are interested in this type of content? Well, according to the NCA, the last statistics that they shared,

there could be up to 800,000 people in the UK alone who are interested in looking at child sexual abuse. And that's really worrying, isn't it? Because that could be up to 800,000 people in the UK alone who are interested in looking at child sexual abuse. And that's really worrying, isn't it? Because that could be anybody. Absolutely anybody, somebody you know. It could definitely be someone you know. How concerned are you? How concerned should we all be?

I'm incredibly concerned because, you know, the last time I talked to you, Anita, I talked about how concerned I was about 11 to 13-year-old girls and I talked about how vulnerable they are. Well, they're vulnerable. Well, what about three year olds? I mean, they are incredibly vulnerable. So I am really concerned because by the time we see this, the crime has happened, the image has been shared. So we have to collectively step up as a society and say, this just can't happen. Children are having their childhoods robbed from them. They have a right not to be abused in this way.

And as adults, we have a duty to protect them, the most vulnerable in society, whether that's parents, carers, the government, internet companies, all of us. So what can we do? Right, so we can do quite a lot. So first of all, on a positive level, there's the Online Safety Act that's come in,

which will require companies not just to voluntarily scan and remove content from their platforms, but to actually demonstrate that they're doing that. So technology companies need to throw every bit of technology they have at this problem and not wait for the Online Safety Act to be compliant. Are you satisfied that that's going to make a difference? It's going to make it, yes, it will make a difference, but it won't be the answer to everything. We've got to attack it in a number of ways, not just the technology companies. We've got to have good legislation and support for law enforcement, but we also need awareness raising in education. So society has to kind of step up and say, no, we've got to protect our

children. But a really, really quick thing that people could do for parents, carers, is you're going to hear this, you're going to think this is absolutely awful, you're going to panic. Don't panic. Do you know what? This is happening in homes, so you can actually control this situation. What you need to do, and we've got a checklist on our website, iwf.org.uk, that people can look at, but you need to have supervised supervision of your

children when they're on the internet so if you've got a three-year-old they shouldn't or three to six-year-old they shouldn't be have open access to the internet on a camera enabled device in their bedroom without supervision they could watch things on the internet perhaps when you're in the room downstairs but think about it just because they're in the house it doesn't mean that they're safe and they are not clever compared to these perpetrators they're victims and they need to be safeguarded it's difficult though isn't it because a we know that it's very easy for a parent to hand over a device because it does babysit them for a little while when you want to get on with cooking or doing your own whatever it is doing your work but also there's so much combined learning now.

A lot of children learn using some sort of device, don't they? Well, you know, one of the things, I mean, I'm talking about very bad stuff, but, you know, the internet is fundamentally a good thing. You know, there's education, there's connecting children, there's, you know, there's social side, there's so many positive aspects to the internet, entertainment. But, you know, there are lots of ways in which you supervise your children that, you know, whether it's crossing a road, whether it's, you know, you just need to have age appropriate supervision. And I'm not saying don't let your children on the Internet. What I'm saying is they need to be supervised, whether you're the carer, the parent.

And for children who found themselves in this situation where they're asked to, you need to talk to them as well. And sadly, you need to start talking to them now very, very young. And we know that one significant conversation between an adult and a child can make all the difference. So you need to, in the same way as you would say to your kids, don't talk to strangers or, you know, put some rules in place. Protect your children just because they're in the house. Don't just presume they're safe. And this is all new territory as well. We are all learning to understand what's happening out there. And you mentioned the technology is changing rapidly, which is a good thing in many

ways, but also can be used in a very negative way. Can we discuss the AI nudification tool? Could you tell me, explain what that is? Okay, so this is, so AI, lots and lots of positive uses, fantastic, but some really negative uses one is the creation of online child sexual abuse material that looks realistic which is creating real problems for everyone but the nudifying apps are particularly worrying because you can take an image of you Anita or me or and then children and apply this app and create nude images of them and these can then be shared. There was a case in Spain where young boys made nude images of girls in class as a fun thing, not realising they were doing a criminal act.

But obviously this is incredibly worrying. And the good news is that we are putting in place legislation to make the making of deepfakes a criminal act, or deepfakes without consent a criminal act. But one thing I would say is there is no positive benefit to a nudifying app. I mean, nobody can tell me there's a positive benefit. And we have found a manual online, Anita, that tells people how to access nudifying apps via VPNs

in order to nudify children to blackmail them. I mean, that's how bad it is. So we need to ensure that these are not just illegal in this country, illegal around the world, and that they're, again, a zero tolerance. There's no good thing about them. And is that how they're getting children, by blackmailing them? Yeah, well, in the case of sextortion cases, so you can, any child, one of the issues around AI images is that it's not, they're not all just

fabricated and completely imaginary children. They're taking real pictures of children, nudifying them, making them into sexual images. They're taking children who've already been sexually abused and making new images of them. So any child, anybody whose photograph is out there can be taken and nudified. And the impact on that can be devastating. We've had cases of children who've had nudes shared, not necessarily AI, who've then been blackmailed and have committed suicide. So we absolutely have to act now. It's absolutely essential and urgent that this action is taken. It's been suggested

that if the Labour Party were in government next time they're considering banning them do you think it would make a difference? 100% absolutely I mean this is a we're this is a cross-party issue and we you know we're very optimistic that you know whatever government's in place will do the right thing because we've all got children and we all care about them and we need to do the right thing. And very quickly, we've already mentioned how parents should be talking to their children, but you have developed a checklist. Very briefly, tell me what TALK is.

Okay, so TALK means, the T stands for talk to your children, actually talk to them and understand what platforms they're using, so actually spend some time with them on the internet. The A stands for agree what the family boundaries are. Everybody should stick to them. You can't have rules that some people have and some people don't have. some time with them on the internet. The A stands for agree what the family boundaries are. Everybody should stick to them. You can't have rules that some people have and some people don't have. Including the adults? Absolutely, absolutely. You've got to set the show by example. The L stands for learn about the safety features and the apps and how they work. And there's lots of information

out there from different platforms and from online safety organisations like the UK Safer Internet Centre and the K is know how to implement safety mechanisms on your devices so your children are kept safe. Susie thank you for coming in to speak to me. Thank you. And if you have concerns there are links on our website which you can go to. Lots of you getting in touch about the previous item we were talking about the ofsted outcome schools should be inspected without notice just one reason why whole wall displays from a successful inspected school were taken to another nearby presumably the ofsted team was different and that's from a retired teacher anonymous here in berkshire says i've worked

in schools for 20 years when the school receives notification of an offset visit the school and its staff is then under immense pressure to prepare for that inspection far better to have inspectors call in and see a school operating as it usually does with as your last message said collaborative and ongoing working to fully support the school and someone else said i can see teachers we want less pressure but one word is useful to focus their performance. A narrative can be an addition, not instead of. 84844, the text number. Now, the deaths of a 21-year-old, Diane Jones, and her two young children in a house fire on the 10th of October 1995 shocked the community of Merthyr Tydfil. The police originally thought it was an accident,

but in the days following the fire, launched a triple murder investigation after petrol was found on the carpet. That same night, mother of three, Annette Hewins, had taken her niece to buy an electricity token at a petrol station, a night that would change their lives forever. Just months later, Annette was charged with triple

murder, manslaughter and arson with intent to endanger life. She was found guilty with the charge of arson and sentenced to 13 years. After two and a half years, Annette's conviction was overturned at the Crown Court of Appeal and she was released. She pleaded to the world to find the real killers, something that has not yet happened. She died in 2017 at the age of 51. Well, Annette's daughter, Nicole Jacob, is delving into her mum's story in a new podcast, Wrongly Accused, the Annette Hewitt story. She joins me now from Cardiff. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Why did you want to make this podcast, Nicole? I think I've spent my whole life hiding from what happened to us and my siblings and I trying to protect ourselves

from opening that vulnerability and scrutiny. You know, we face lots of judgment, especially, you know, my mum faced lots of judgment. And I feel I've reached a stage in my life where I need to be heard um I this is my identity this was my life and I always felt that nobody cared about us and nobody cared that this happened and that my childhood was taken from me and my mum was taken from me and ultimately she died in the most awful way the worst possible scenario and when she died I felt that she was let down the way she had been

let down in her life this had also happened in her death and it was completely brushed under the carpet and we were expected to move on and forget about it but now I feel that I need to speak I need to share her story and I wanted to give her the platform and the opportunity to do that and so we've been able to do that via this podcast I am a friend of my mum's he is a forensic journalist at He Shaker he's always quite persistent in feeling that we should share her story and he put me in touch with Amy Derrick. And she's kind of held my hand throughout this journey and given me the confidence to feel comfortable opening up.

So the other reason I think that I felt able to do this was that we were given audio tapes, recordings of my mum after she was released from prison. Johnny Kamara, another miscarriage of justice victim, shared those with us. And they were a real insight into my mum's mind, her thoughts and her feelings at the time, which was amazing for me.

And it just gave me that confidence that this would be her sharing her experience and this was a way of getting her voice heard. It is a gripping lesson. And particularly because it's you telling your mum's story. And you can feel the sense that you want to have her story told. And it's the sense, it's heartbreaking. The huge sense of injustice that took place.

And there's a moment where you talk to your other siblings, but you explain, well, it's not all of them. And not all of them were as open to telling the story as you. So I just wonder how that conversation went about and what made you different? What made you the one who really felt this sense that you needed this story to be heard? I think, you know, I'm 31. My younger sister, she's still only 21. We're all at different stages of grief and processing. And our life has been one traumatic event after another. You know, after my mum's release, it would be easy to imagine that life went on and everything was okay. But that wasn't the

case you know my my mum had a drug addiction and she really suffered mentally and the support just wasn't there um along with that my dad had a really horrific accident and then my mum lost that support network that person that really understood her um we went into foster care and and then eventually my mum died so all of this this has been really, really difficult for us. And we've just been trying to hold one another up. You know, we're extremely close and we just didn't want to crumble. We wanted a better life and we wanted a brighter future. We didn't want to be consumed the way that my mum was.

So we've been very protective of one another and our stories. And yeah, I think I'm older now. I'm a mum myself. I think I'm a lot more confident in my identity and who I am. So I feel in a position that I'm able to speak and that I need to, you know, in order to be able to process and move forward with my life, I need to accept who I am. This is very much a huge part of me and my whole life I've been the strong one the big sister the protector and I've always put everybody else first and their well-being and what they wanted but I've come to the realization that I have to think of myself and what I need and this is so important for me and it's been a real healing process

and it's been an opportunity to connect with my mum. I feel that, yeah, you know, I feel so much closer to her now. After her death, I was really, really traumatised. It was a very dark time. My older brother Nathan and I felt so responsible for her death. How old were you when she was 51? How old were you? I was about 26 or 25. So it was really hard.

We kind of encouraged her to go to the hospital when we felt that this was going to be a turning point and she was going to get the support she needed, psychiatric help. And we were almost really excited that finally we were in the position that she was going to be understood and supported. And within 24 hours, she was dead. So we were devastated and all of our hopes and dreams and everything that we thought would happen in our future didn't. You know, I feel like the life was sucked from me and part of my heart was taken that day.

It was just awful. And it took a long time to be able to accept that and move on from it. I couldn't even think about my mum. I didn't have photographs of her around the house. Any memories I had were just those really traumatic ones. They were always at the forefront. So this process has allowed me to remember the fighting spirit that she had and the strength that she had and the love that she had for all of us. And it's been great to hear the audios of her advocating for herself and showing that she was innocent and she would tell the world and she would fight.

And it's really sad that it didn't end the way that she hoped that it did. But hearing so many positive stories, and I've heard from friends and people that were in prison with her and things like that, it's been really nice to know that there were people that cared, there were people that supported her, and there were people that knew the strength that she had. So I now have a picture of her in my kitchen,

and I am able to think of her and remember the positive times. We can actually play a clip of your mum in an interview she gave with this programme in 1999 after being released. This is where she talks about giving birth because she was pregnant when she was arrested and the presenter was Martha Kearney. You were actually pregnant when you were awaiting trial. did you give birth to Joshua um they just about got me out of the prison I just I remember all I was saying was just get me out of this prison I don't want my baby born in this prison I said okay as long as you get me out the gates I don't think we was far from the gates they had to stop on a roundabout and I give birth to Joshua on the roundabout then. Were you able to keep him with you?

No, while I was in the hospital. I had six hours. I was going back at six in the morning. I had to leave to go back at six in the morning to go back to the prison. So they'd be telling me to try and get some sleep. And I thought, oh, could they expect me to sleep? Only these hours I had with my baby. I wanted to spend every minute I could.

And in a way, I couldn't wait for six o'clock to come because I knew that I'd have to leave him and I just wanted to get it over with if I had to do it you know just just get it over with because it was just too painful. That was presenter Martha Carney speaking to your mum in 1999 on Woman's Hour what was it like hearing that? It's really hard. You know, one of the most difficult things of this whole case and the experience for my mum was giving birth to my brother, Josh, and having him taken away from her.

That was something she could never get over. She was so deeply traumatised by that and she always felt that she needed to try and compensate with Josh. And she had another child afterwards my sister Sophia and I think my mum hoped that that would sort of help the healing process and she would be able to relive the the experience that she missed with him and unfortunately that didn't take away the hurt that she had felt and she couldn't move on from that I think knowing that she was innocent and then having her baby taken away from her so unfairly was something that she just couldn't accept.

And just to know that she had six hours, such a short amount of time, not only for her, you know, to physically heal, but also for my brother's well-being and formative time with his mother, you know. And Josh still struggles with that now. And this podcast, he's found it really difficult to hear how the prison officer suggested that my mum would seriously consider an abortion because he would be taken away from her regardless. And he says, you know, they didn't want me to be alive. If it was up to them, I wouldn't be here today. And that's been really hard. He still finds it extremely difficult to talk about. And he was always a reserved child. And to an extent, he still holds a lot of that pain inside. Is there a part of you that thinks of the if only in terms of your mum going to the garage that night? Yeah, definitely.

I always think if only. And throughout this process, I have considered. I always thought that there must have been more evidence or that the defence were just absolutely awful. That no witnesses came forward. But I've learned that that's not necessarily the case. And I feel so frustrated that the people that were there to safeguard and protect my mum didn't do that all the way through the trial, the judge, the jury, those people that should have been able to step in. They didn't. How much do you think where you lived in Merthyr Tydfil

impacted the fact that your mum was accused, especially the Gurnos estate? I think that was a massive impact. I think there was a lot of judgment. It's a very socially deprived area. And they were just seen as these lower class, lesser people. And I think that the fact that they were women and they were mothers and they were so young, they were definitely, their character was exploited and their vulnerability was exploited and taken advantage of.

And ultimately, the police needed to get a conviction. They needed to provide the community with an answer as quickly as possible. And unfortunately, my mum was collateral damage and she just helped them get that conviction over the line and just to get anything, really. What do you hope the outcome of this podcast will be? I think our goal was to have my mum's voice heard and to be able to actually share the details

and the extent of the story with the general public and do that for ourselves too, which I feel that we have done. But ultimately now I just hear my mum over and over in my head, now find the real killers, now find the real killers. And that's what I want. I want the conclusion, you know, I want to be able to find those answers. I want South Wales Police to take accountability. And last question, Nicole, how are you and your siblings at the end of this process? We're okay, you know, we've always been strong and we've always strived for a better future and we've been really fortunate to have one another, you know,

as much as it was this huge responsibility on me that I took, I don't think I would have gotten through this time without them. They really are my support network. We're very close. And I think my mum would be pleased to look down and know that we are all doing okay. Thank you so much for joining me to speak to me this morning. Thanks for having me. Thank you. And the podcast Wrongly Accused, the Annette Ewing story is available on BBC Sounds now. Episode 8 is out today and we contacted South Wales Police for a statement and a spokesperson told us

we've used the lessons from much public and independent scrutiny to drive change and transform the way we carry out major investigations and South Wales Police is committed to learning and improving its service to victims. We've led the way on improving and professionalising investigative practice and have become a leading force in major crime investigation review for example our learning around the challenges of disclosure in the criminal justice system have led to recognize good practice that has been shared nationally the way in which major crime investigations

suspect interviews and family liaison are carried out have been transformed since the practices referred to 84844. Annie has got in touch to say the podcast, wrongly accused, is reminiscent of a modern-day ducking stool trial, a shocking story, an amazing thought-provoking production. 84844 is the number to text. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now. Now, Cassie Werber's new novel, Open Season, features a romantic relationship between two couples who are exploring the possibilities of open relationships. Set in London, Hura, Cillian, James and Roses are all cool, good-looking and intrigued by a scene that's suddenly made accessible by phone apps designed especially for people who are looking for more than one sexual partner. It's a world that Cassie herself explores in real life with her husband, David, and she joins us to discuss the inspiration for the book and the book itself. First of all, congratulations.

Thank you very much. Most books feature two people in a relationship. Your book has two couples, so four separate people in a relationship. It's a complicated dynamic. How easy was it to write? I was fascinated by the complicated nature of that dynamic. I think I really like books that are about complex romantic relationships, complex familial relationships, and I like getting into the detail of exactly what each person is thinking when, and especially that moment where two people might approach a different, a situation differently and see it differently even though they're experiencing the same thing so I tried to write from four different perspectives and actually there is

also a fifth character that comes in whose perspective I write from as well so Sam Sam so five different perspectives and often writing around the same moments from different people's viewpoint I don't know if it was difficult to do that. I think I spent quite a lot of time trying to get into the minds of those characters in order to do it. You've gone public since the book's come about, your own open marriage. How much was the novel inspired by that? And what was the conversation with your husband? How did you come to the decision that this is what you're going to talk about?

Well, I think there's two different things there. One is why did I write the book and then why did I start talking about it publicly? Writing the book, I didn't think about whether any of this would ever come out. I think you have to stop yourself a lot of the time as a writer from judging your work or thinking about what you're going to do and how it will be taken before you do it. Otherwise you'll self-edit. Exactly. So I did start the book simply thinking about those dynamics. We had started to dip a toe in the water of opening up our relationship, but we were still quite new to it. And the characters in the book are quite new to their explorations. So really we'd started to think about it and to talk about it and to experiment a little bit but what I was thinking

about when I started the book was what would happen in such a situation with completely different characters, completely different people and I was really interested in things like the nature of betrayal there is still a possibility when people are open you can't just do whatever you want and so I wanted to explore that and I set up a situation I guess in the book where we do find out what happens when somebody feels betrayed without giving away what happens in the book. But they are all experimenting in different ways with different kinds of openness and exploring that themselves at quite an early stage. And I guess I would probably write a different book now if I wrote it right now. Why is that?

Well, because I think it is about people who are just starting out on that journey and don't know very much about what they're getting into. And of course, a book takes a long time to write and then the publishing process takes a long time. So things move on. You know, the world has moved on since I wrote the book and there are things in it that I would probably change if I was to do it again but it is about a moment in time it's about a moment in these characters lives and I think from that perspective I'm very happy with it and very happy it's being published. It's a big achievement. Thank you. You talk about the word you brought up the word betrayal there. Yes. Interesting word because for most people the idea that your partner would sleep with somebody else is the ultimate betrayal absolutely and here you discuss that actually

betrayal could be it's just a lie yeah and that could be anything so I was really fascinated by that question and something I felt like I saw a lot or read a lot, particularly in fiction, and I think you see it on the screen as well, is this red line moment where everything's fine with a couple, apparently, and then there is a sexual betrayal and then everything is destroyed. to me. It didn't ever ring true before our own experiments and after that a whole relationship could be destroyed by that one thing. I know it happens, of course, and those betrayals are very serious for lots of people, but it just didn't seem to me to be the whole story. And also, it's so commonly used that it's almost not examined. And I wanted to examine that question, you know, if sleeping with other people or having romantic feelings about other people is okay within the bounds of your relationship, then what? How do you treat one another? And are there red lines that you can still cross of course people have boundaries still

so that's what I was looking at and I did try to find a moment of extreme betrayal which I will not give away. No spoilers you'll have to get the book to discover it for themselves so you talk about boundaries there so what are the boundaries within your own relationship with your husband how does it work we talk about everything a lot I think that's the main thing we don't have secrets from each other that doesn't mean that we discuss the minutiae of absolutely everything or that he reads all of my text messages every day to kind of check in on me. We trust each other. And I think broadly, we know that we each want the best for each other. And we want each other to be happy, to be secure, to explore as part of our lives. But also, we trust each other to come back back to each other and in that we don't have

the same kind of open relationship as lots of people we don't actually have other serious partners we have um we have each other and we're married and we intend to stay married um but we also have quite a free um degree of openness i guess i've got quite a few questions, as you might imagine. First of all, it feels like playing emotional Russian roulette. How do you protect yourself, your feelings, human things such as jealousy? Yes, people always ask about jealousy. Yes. And jealousy does come up in the book I've written. It does come up for us sometimes, but I would say that it

is so far been quite a mild emotion. And I don't completely know why that is. I think there are a couple of potential reasons. I wonder sometimes if I'm not particularly naturally jealous, and neither is he. I also think we do have a very deep level of trust and we had that in our relationship before we decided to open it um i think for that reason we're quite lucky um but but people can go into relationships open and also have developed that deep level of trust um i guess i feel quite secure and i don't feel like um david is looking for somebody to replace me and i think if if i did ever feel that that would be a hard feeling but but i haven't yet come across that maybe that's why you entered into it because you know that the two of you feel that way the other thing just a very practical question you've got two children under six

a husband you've managed to find the time to write a book how do you find the time um yes it's a busy life um i think part of part of what's allowed me to do that is having great support from him. I haven't done it all on my own. We've raised the children very equally, and that means we've done half of the childcare each, and I don't think that that is actually the case for a lot of people in heterosexual couples, but that has been the case for us. Just thinking of the logistics of it.

Yeah, the logistics are kind of are and aren't complicated. I mean, sometimes we go out on our own and do things alone. Sometimes we go out together, as any couple might. And if we do that, then we have a babysitter. And we have lots of trusted people and good friends who can look after our kids sometimes. So from that point of view of course there are there are kind of planning and logistics issues but every couple has that and every couple hopefully does things outside of their home that make them feel happy and refreshed

and good about you know themselves and this is just one of the things that we do now your novel isn't necessarily an advert for open relationships because it starts off as a fun exploration but it becomes complicated and painful. What's the experience of talking about the book and your own personal life been like? It's great talking about the book. I love talking about it. It's been a long journey to publication and I'm very very happy that the book has come out. I can't wait for people to read it. I really want people to tell me what they think of it. And I didn't make the decision or we didn't make the decision that I would talk about our personal life until quite recently. And that came up for two reasons, I suppose. One, that it's useful to be able to talk about what the backstory of the book is and what the inspiration was, why I feel like I'm able to and kind of legitimately can talk about what the the backstory of the book is and what the inspiration was why I feel

like I'm able to and kind of legitimately can talk about the subject um but it was still a hard decision I think for us to make and we did it really because we do feel quite confident that we aren't doing something wrong that we we feel happy in the way in the choices that we've made and supportive of other people making the same kinds of choices and it really isn't spoken about very much we're now part of a very very supportive and beautiful community and it is a community there's a scene out absolutely yeah um yeah and i think from my own experience of being in it for the last kind of eight or nine years that it is flourishing it is growing it's much much bigger and more open than it was um where do you go um lots and lots of places, places that are kind of meetups or private events.

I guess we just know lots of people in that scene now and we meet lots of new people. And that's one of the really nice things about it I think life can narrow quite a lot when you are a parent with a job with a school run with all the things that you have to attend to it can become monotonous can become boring and also it can become yeah it can become narrow you can feel maybe like you're surrounded by lots and lots of the same people you kind of move to certain areas where everyone's similar to you I think this has been a way for us to just feel like we are connected to all kinds of different people that it is a very exciting and and beautiful and supportive place to be and to go to and that in turn reminds me that you know people are supportive and and beautiful a lot of the time and that in turn reminds me that people are supportive and beautiful a lot of the time

and that they sometimes don't have a place to express that. And very quickly, what are your rules? I don't think that we actually have specific rules. I couldn't name one. The first rule is there are no rules. Yeah, be kind to each other, be honest. That's a good rule. Thank you so much for coming in to speak to me.

Open season is out now. Does it feel like you've come out a little bit? Yeah, it does feel a little bit like that, yes. Well, thank you for talking to me so openly. Open season is out now. 84844. Had to pull in to listen to Nicole Jacobs, someone has just said. An incredibly brave and wonderful woman.

I'm sure her mum would have been very proud of her. Thank you for your messages. Now, Bo Harris lost her mother, her grandmother and her aunt to cancers caused by the same gene mutation called BRCA1. Two years ago, Bo was tested and discovered she has the same BRCA1 gene mutation. Bo has since been told she has a 90% chance of developing breast cancer and a 60% chance of developing ovarian cancer over her lifetime. Due to NHS waiting times and the likelihood of last-minute cancellations, Bo is now fundraising to have preventative treatments privately, and she's determined to speak about her treatment provision for BRCA patients.

I'll be speaking to Daini Bell from Macmillan Cancer Support in a moment, but first, Bo Harris, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you so much. You've described having this generational fear. Did you always have a feeling that something was different about the women in your family? Absolutely. I think, you know, as a child, I didn't have the cognitive understanding of what it really meant to be part of a Ashkenazi Jewish family that have a history of this genetic mutation. I think that energetically I was aware I think as children are

energy is so infectious and unfortunately it has killed every single woman in my family history. So if I can get the the money and the funds that I need to get these preventative procedures, then I will be the first survivor. Did you always want to find out? Did you always want to get tested? Did you know from a young age? I think the honest answer is absolutely. I did not want to know from a young age. But that was the avoidance talking, of course. I think I got to the age of, you know, when my frontal vortex was fully formed and it started to creep into the forefront of my consciousness. And it actually was quite accidental that I had my referral because I'm trying to get a diagnosis for what I believe to be endometriosis. I've been trying for over 10 years. And they said to me, they suggested some hormonal contraception.

And I said I I'm scared because there's um hormonal cancers in my family and they said well do you have BRCA I said I don't know and they said well let's let's refer you and it's interesting I was talking with my therapist and I think I must have been ready because I didn't stop it and when you found out did that change the way your outlook on life it's's changed everything in my life. It's pulled the rug completely from underneath my feet. As a freelance performer and creative as well, it's completely shattered everything in my life. The truth is, though, I didn't expect the obstacles that I'm currently facing to be so profound. I'm going to bring Daini in on that. So Dainey, who can get

tested? What happens when they start the process? What's available if you find out you have the BRCA1 gene mutation? So in terms of being tested, there is a process and it's based on your family history and whether you have a mild, moderate or high risk of getting cancer. Can you hear me okay? I can hear you perfectly well, yeah. Good, good. And so it's about taking a family history and then identifying someone's risk. And of course, we know that women in Jewish communities have a much, much higher risk. And actually, there is actually NHS England now in England are actually rolling out population testing for Jewish communities. But that's very new. Generally, what happens is you get referred to genetic cancer if you're high risk.

And then the process starts of your different options in terms of management and what are the options so um if you're high risk then definitely the risk reducing surgery um as opposed to if you have a moderate risk screening and then a mild risk sort of making sure you check your yourself and take lifestyle risk but obviously it goes through the nhs and the surgical breast teams to have that surgery i'm just very aware of time because we're going to run out i just want to know you know the options for you you know preventative or just test until it happens so what choice have you made what how did that how did you how did that yeah it's interesting because it is presented as a choice um but as i say to a lot of my friends and family would you get on a plane with a 90 crash rate or even a 10 which is what my risk currently is at 29 years old

um i have been offered um a preventative mastectomy and a preventative ovary and fallopian tube removal which is called a bso and unfortunately i'm not offered as a BRCA patient egg freezing so those are my preventative options. And you want to egg freeze? Absolutely absolutely I do. Tell me more. Well I think it's quite heartbreaking that I you know I have to have the same procedures as someone with ovarian cancer for example and I And I'm not offered this. And the truth is, you know, we have a brutally underfunded NHS and a backlog of cancer patients from the pandemic that really, really need this care. But for people like me, it means that mine is delayed. And that's very scary. And also, it's been passed down from generation to generation.

Exactly. So maybe you want to break the generational cycle. That is exactly why I'm here, to not only start this conversation, but to hopefully change this pattern that has killed countless women that really deserve long lives and were not able to get these treatments. Will you come back and talk to me again, Bo? I would really love to. Thank you so much for joining me. Dainey, I know it was brief, but time is what it is.

Thank you also. We will put some more information up on our website for anybody who needs more information. Thank you to everybody who got in touch with your thoughts. I'll be back tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. To the uninitiated, I would describe my family by

saying we are very passionate people. I'm Cardiff born, Cardiff bred, and when I die, I'll be Cardiff dead. We're musical. There's a lot of big personalities. All of our family perform in some way, whether entertainment or just emotionally performing.

We are hilarious to be fair. Extraordinary. I really do enjoy life. I don't worry about dying tomorrow, because tomorrow's never going to come. That's how I would describe my family. I'm Charlotte Church, and I'm inviting you to listen in on a series of intimate and special conversations

about belonging, working class identity and the unbreakable bonds of family. So come and kick back with the Cardiffians, babes. Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.