Woman's Hour - Breaking barriers to cycling for women

Episode Date: May 3, 2021

Have you always wanted to get on a bike, but something is holding you back? This is the programme for you, presented by Melanie Abbott. If you're completely new to cycling, there's no doubt it's intimidating on the roads. It's definitely worth sharpening up your road sense and many local councils now offer bike training courses. In East London, Bikeworks run cycling for wellbeing sessions for women returning to their bikes, after a long break. Melanie goes out with a group who've been cycling together now for a few weeks.Cycling is still, predominantly a male, middle class sport. Getting more women involved isn't easy, especially for women of colour. British Cycling, which covers everything from elite sport to grass roots, has set up its first ever diversity programme. and will be publishing its strategy in the coming months. Aneela McKenna is co chair of their diversity and inclusion advisory group. She joins Melanie along with Iffat Tejani, founder of Evolve, a cycling club for Muslim women and Victoria Hazael from the charity Cycling UK, who is a trustee of the Women of Colour in Cycling Collective.Many disabled women find accessing sport particularly difficult and cycling can seem completely off limits and/or too expensive. But there are inclusive cycle groups all over the country offering weekly sessions on a huge range of adapted bikes. Others arrange rentals and ‘try before you buy’. Our Disability Affairs reporter Carolyn Atkinson goes to Herne Hill Velodrome in South London where a charity called Wheels for Wellbeing runs sessions for disabled cyclists.Tracy Moseley has won countless mountain biking trophies, including the World Cup downhill in 2006. She officially retired six years ago, and had her little boy Toby three years ago. Like many keen cyclists who have children, life has changed a lot since then. Melanie gets her tips on teaching children to ride, and her views on racing with e-bikes.Even if you are not entering races you may still be keen to "Strava your ride". It's one of the apps you can use to record your speeds and compare them with others. It's traditionally used by men, competing for the 'king of the mountain' crown, to be the fastest up a hill. But last year the company says there was a surge in the number of women using it and it seems they are just as keen to get a queen of the mountain accolade. Cyclist Sally Owens agreed to record her ride for us, up a tough hill near her home in Nottingham.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Melanie Abbott and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. Today I cycled into Broadcasting House. I've been commuting by bike for years, but in the past three lockdowns, more and more women have joined me on their bikes. Figures from Sport England show the numbers cycling between the beginning of April and the end of May last year doubled, though it was still only just over one in ten. And of course, in the first lockdown, the roads were beautifully quiet. Do you remember that?

Perfect conditions for a newbie cyclist. Now, coming in this morning, they were possibly even busier than normal, as people seem to be avoiding public transport. So, how do you overcome the fear of motorists cutting you up, or being on the receiving end of ugly road rage? This is the programme to tell you. We are devoting it to cycling. It is great that so many more women are doing it, but even more, for one reason or another, are too nervous to get on a bike. And what about those who loved cycling, but then the children came along? A female mountain biking champion is here with her tips for how to get the kids involved. Or maybe you think cycling isn't for you because you have a disability. Not so. We'll learn about all kinds of adaptive bikes which can get you out there.

Listen in and you will realise very few barriers can't be overcome. We're not live today, but do feel free to join in on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our websites. If you are completely new to cycling, there is no doubt it can be intimidating on the roads. Personally, I much prefer mountain biking where you're completely free from traffic, but even that involves roads to link up the trails. So whatever kind of cycling you prefer, it's definitely worth sharpening up your road sense. Many local councils now offer bike training courses. In East London, Bike Works runs cycling for wellbeing sessions for women returning to their bikes after a long break,

as well as one-to-one tuition for complete newbies. I've been out with a group who've been cycling together now for a few weeks. Let's refresh ourselves before we set off and do your ABCD checks. Maybe you can remind yourselves A for air B for brakes C for forgotten chain the bicycle is facing the wheels are straight steering is tightly connected as well. E was for everything else and F we used as fitting so checking that the height of the seat works for you. If you keep your

brakes on, that's it, and put the pedal at the lowest place close to the ground and put your heel on the pedal then your leg should be dead straight and so you're telling me it has to go higher this is the lady who kept on telling me lower lower it's half an inch got it while you're doing that i'll have a chat to some of the other ladies cycling with us what's your name please i'm becky you did the course what made you decide to do it? I haven't ridden a bike for about 15 years and last month probably rode when my children were really small. What was it like for the first time after 15 years? We only did about two or three miles, yeah I did feel it in my legs and yeah I was panting and puffing at the end of it. You're back though so you obviously got

hooked, what did you like about it? I really liked like the scenery i just you know we went on some really lovely like cycle paths and do you cycle much on the roads how do you find that no never cycle on the roads i am still a bit wary of it melanie do you want to come to the front yeah that would be good so you'll go behind me when we're riding just to get warmed up yeah so top tips for melanie when riding hands on the brake covering the brakes and what about when you want to set off have the pedal in the two o'clock position so you're ready to go all righty is everyone ready you ride right behind me with instructors there's eight of us now trying to keep in a good order I think I'm the one weaving the most at the moment I've never actually done any

proper cycling skills I must admit so this will be a bit of a test of whether I can do what I'm told let's look have a look and see who managed to stop in a low gear photos did you yes top marks So now when you set off it's going to be really easy isn't it? My name's Lucy Nandris and I'm the Cycling for Health Project Manager for Bike Works in East London. If I could ask you what the top three tips were for cycling in traffic, what might they be? See, be seen and and communicate be in a position on the road where people can see you because that then enables you to communicate with them there is this phrase taking the lane when you're in traffic explain what that means and if it is the right thing to do

ideally you don't want people overtaking you where the road is a little bit narrow As a cyclist you're not as wide as a car So you need to position yourself so that you take the lane Does it mean actually being in the middle of the lane then where a car might be? Exactly, positioning yourself further out from the left hand side So not hugging the kerb or being in the gutter or what we'd call the car door zone. It can be quite intimidating if there's a driver hooting you or even worse, shaking their fist at you. I'm sure you've had incidents like that. How do you cope with that?

If they're hooting at you, they've seen you. So that's one positive thing to take away from it. Give a thank you, give a thumbs up, and that will help the situation. I like your positive take on a hoot. There he goes. Okay, let's get ready for a stop. Have a little look behind or over your right shoulder, see who's there. Getting ready to stop in three, one and stop perfect stopping really good you had your hands on the brake so you were ready i'm jane how long have you been cycling now about 10 years ago

i used to cycle to work and then i didn't cycle for over 10 years but then i started in lockdown and started just going locally in the olymp. It's been brilliant because I've really increased my confidence. I've learned so many new routes. It's been really fun exploring the area. You do have a very lovely shiny bike. It's got lovely bright blue mudguards and chain guard and then a kind of olivey frame. It's very attractive. Thank you. I just got this one

actually for my birthday at the weekend it's a dutch style duchess bike so i'm really really pleased with her do you feel like a duchess when you're riding it well i don't know not quite no hopefully i will do at some point great okay we can have a look and see the snake which is this long list of us or we're going to go on the road in a moment. Because the snake is really long we want to be able to make it shorter so we're going to go into pairs. Melanie you'll be on the left. Perfect. We're about as wide as a car now when we stop. I'm swerving here rather alarmingly, but I'm in control, honestly. This has got lower handlebars than the bike I'm used to.

I can ride a bike, really. My name is Saida. And how long have you been cycling? About six months. What made you decide to take it up? Well, my husband bought a bike for himself, and I thought, I've never ridden never ridden before I thought why don't I buy one and then we could ride together. Did you know how to ride a bike? No I didn't I didn't know how to ride a bike. You'd never ridden before at all? No. Wow and what was it like learning? I fell down a few times fractured my ankle. Oh no how did you do that?

I went through a puddle. Never go through a puddle! Easier said than done in our climate. I know, I know, but I went through a puddle. It was hiding a pavement, a curb. So you hit the curb and came off? Yes. Didn't put you off though? No, it didn't. I couldn't wait to get back on.

That's brave. What about your husband? Is he pleased that you're cycling? Yes, he is. Sometimes he cycles with me. I'm a little bit faster than him, so he's not very pleased about that. So is everybody ready? We'll set off. We'll check behind because there's other people around. Good stuff. And off we go. We're all turning left now and Lucy is very helpfully holding up the traffic.

Well, kindly asking them to stop and, and of course thanking them when they do so. It's going to single file now so back into our order because we're going to turn right here. It has to be said I'm certainly no beginner to riding but this is a really good reminder that you should be doing things like looking behind you before you set off, braking in good time and changing your gears down before you stop so that then the gears are nice and light now we're turning back into the park some great tips there from the instructor lucy nandris, and I did learn quite a bit, actually. Now, you have sent us more questions on the subject of cycling on social media, and we've got cycling expert Anila McKenna with us to answer some of those.

The first one, Anila, it's pretty straightforward. How do I not get squished? And I imagine she means when she's cycling on the roads, because it can be really intimidating the first time, particularly in busy cities. Yes, it can be really intimidating for women. And, you know, if you've not been on a bike before, we know a lot of women go into a bike in their later stages of life. So it can be intimidating. Later or earlier stages. Yeah, and you have more responsibilities in life. You have children. So you're thinking more about the risk element that you would if you were a child or a kid. So, you know, these things can be difficult. So it's about being able

to be confident in doing that. The best piece of advice I would give is get yourself in a club and actually learn some of the skills and how to ride on a road confidently. Here's a good one that I think lots of women do wonder about. Pants or no pants when riding a bike? This listener says this has often baffled me. Seems the general consensus is no pants, but then I'm not sure what female cyclists do when it's their period? I love this question. I'm all for no pants, and I've experienced this myself because when I didn't know much about cycling, I used to wear pants. And what was the end result of that? Pulled hairs and abscesses.

So I recommend, yes, it was very painful. So can I recommend that you wear a chamois? And what's the chamois? The chamois is like a padded short and it keeps you comfortable and on a bike, on your saddle. So, yeah, I would definitely wear a padded short and don't wear your pants underneath that. And if you do get some chaffing, use something like a chamois cream

to help you with that but no pants when you are on your period can it be tricky well well i'm not sure for me i'm just going to be just say what i do i will put my sanitary towel actually in my padded short now back to a bit more of a practical one this uh listener says that she's loved to learn to cycle. She's never, ever done it. What's the best bike to start with? My advice would be is get something like a hybrid bike, something that does have straight handlebars that you can feel comfortable on

and go to your local bike shop and just ask them to actually get you set up on it. Look at what the options are for you and get something that is an introductory bike. Don't go straight into a full suspension Tracy Mosley type bike, because if you're going to do that, then it's going to be too much bike for what you want to cycle. Because the range in prices can be so vast, can't it? Thanks for those tips, Anila. Now, as well as being a mountain bike guide and a coach, you are, Anila, actively involved in getting more women of colour into cycling because it is traditionally seen as a male middle class sport. Now, Anila McKenna, you co-chair British Cycling's Diversity and Inclusion Advisory Group. Now, that organisation covers everything from elite sport to grassroots,

and it's set up its first ever diversity programme. It's going to publish its strategy in a few months' time. Anilio, I suppose that you might say that you've bucked the trend, maybe, as an Asian woman, because you've really forged ahead in the cycling world. Were you encouraged as a child? Oh, absolutely not. Yeah yeah i was told that bikes were not for me bikes were for boys and that uh yeah i had to play with the dolls instead

and what about your brothers then if you have yeah well yes i had a brother and he uh had a if you can remember the old choppers with the long seat. I do remember the chopper. Yeah, and I remember my first experience of actually just getting him to give me a backie. So I would be on the back of his chopper and get to go and ride on a bike. So that was really my only experience of riding. My father didn't allow us to participate in sport as a young Pakistani girl. So for me, that was my first experience. And I always remember it because I really did want a

bike, but just, you know, it wasn't accessible to me. I want to bring in Ifat Tajani now, because she founded a club called Evolve, which is for Muslim women. It's backed by British cycling. In fact, how old were you when you got into cycling and how did it come about? Thank you very much for having me on. Okay, I was a very young age of 37. A mere stripling. Yeah. When I discovered cycling, and I think I can relate to the barriers that Adila has been speaking about.

And, you know, the same is especially if you're wearing hijab as well, you know, that brings out a lot of the barriers as well. That, look, would you be accepted and things like that. But in fact, it was actually the diagnosis of breast cancer that woke me up. Really? Quite a life event it was yeah because i was not able to you know i didn't have the opportunity to learn i made sure that my kids were able to cycle were able to swim but i was i was on the sidelines you know they will be cycling and i'll be walking behind them and after when i was diagnosed i was like you know you make a great bucket list when you're going through you know chemotherapy and the virtual things was the lunge cycle and learn to swim as soon as my treatment was finished good for you

how long did it take you to learn to cycle it was um three sessions and again the challenge i had i could find a female coach which you know what we're talking about almost 10 years ago now and things are really improving you know we're recycling you know there are lots of like coaches getting trained as well so i had to find a male coach to learn to cycle. And was that okay with your family you've been taught by a male? You know what I'm really lucky that I've actually come from a family where we're not conservative about it but yes that could be a huge barrier for somebody whose family are very conservative it could effectively stop them from taking on cycling. Tell me how Evolve came about then you obviously you learned to cycle

and then you decided you wanted more women to join you yeah so we i wanted more women i wanted to actually introduce the breeze um cycling program it was actually the clip that you hear sounded very much like a breeze ride breeze rides are run by british cycling to get more women out and about that's correct and i really wanted to bring cycling within the community and actually normalise it. And you understand the barriers, you understand a ride will have to be around a prayer time or a stop. We'll have to be at a coffee stop, cannot be at a pub.

So you're able to organise all that. How many members have you got now and what kind of events have you had? So we have about 120 members we actually had a muslim women sportive for 45 riders and these were all beginners they all arrived in the super heavy bikes which their husband you know kindly bought it for them and we looked at them and we said you know this is 45 miles you will not be able to do this. A lot of them, we actually transitioned them onto a road bike. And, you know, Aldis was 62 and she completed 45 miles. That's impressive. So sportive, just to be clear, it wasn't a competition.

It was just a recreational ride. It was an endurance ride. It was very much tailored to be able to complete it rather than how fast you could do it. Also with us is Victoria Hazel. She's from Cycling UK, which is a charity promoting cycling and campaigning for better infrastructure. Victoria, we've heard from two Muslim women there. You're a trustee of the Women of Colour in Cycling Collective.

Are there the same kind of barriers for black women, mixed race women as there are for Asian women? I think it's a very complicated picture and you can't put us all in the same box because we all have different experience but we would say in the collective we're intentionally not a club but we're a charity because we aim to kind of bring together those who have a similar experience across the UK to encourage each other to reach out in the cycling community and show that that we can and we do love cycling and I'm a real believer in that you cannot be what you do not see so by encouraging people in the

collective across the country we provide opportunities make women of color visible so that they can encourage others and within the collective we've got lots of stories sharing experience of being the only person of color who rides in your town or in your club not being able to ask questions that may be specific to you personally like how do i do my hair under my helmet um with my braids or my weave or dreadlocks things like that but also just being able to share experiences of sometimes cyclists do get shouted at on the roads and if you are a woman of color you may be likely to experience a racial slur in that and to have a safe space where you can talk about that and share that experience is really important lots of people within the collective share things like microaggressions that might not seem that great

at the time but when they happen again and again and again and again it's a pattern that makes you feel that perhaps you don't belong i can give you an example of this melanie it would be that women in the collective have shared with me that there might be some banter in your local club and the banter turns into jokes about you not needing sunblock or people being surprised that you have cycling tan lines and for any of us who cycle regularly in the summer we all have the telltale sign of being a cyclist your tan lines and one one woman shared with me something that I found quite shocking that there were jokes about because she's a black woman she would need brighter lights in the winter so that people would

see her properly on the road so it's not that the cycling community in general is a is an uncomfortable place but these incidents do happen as they happen in daily life for women of colour across the UK so it's important to be a collective that can support encourage have opportunities for women to do training or meet other people who are like them who have done other things to inspire them and it's all good and well saying in the cycle industry, we want to encourage diversity, but really it's more than just putting a few photos in your marketing material.

It's about reflecting on what are the barriers? How can we help women to overcome those barriers? Because cycling is a fantastic thing. It's been an absolute joy in my life. And I really don't want other women of colour to miss out on those great experiences. Anila McKenna, what will be in this diversity programme when it is published? Because as Victoria says, just pictures, it's not really enough. Yeah. So, yeah, you're up, you know, with British Cycling, they've made a real strong commitment to actually addressing diversity and inclusion in everything they do. So you're right, Vic, it's not just about some pictures and some, you know, looking at their representation and participation,

but it's looking across the board in terms of your athletes, looking at the volunteers, your members. How can we be diverse more broadly than we are? We know that cycling is a predominantly male sport, so we have to look at it in terms of gender, we have to look at it in terms of intersectionality around women of colour, disability, LGBT groups. So it's about getting British cycling to lead by example. Anila McKenna, Victoria Hazel and Ifat Jani,

thank you all for joining me today and happy cycling. Still to come on the programme, Tracey Mosley, the former downhill world mountain bike champion and a relatively new mum is going to give us her tips on how to get your kids on their bikes. If you want to comment on the programme, you can contact us on social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website. Now, part of that cycling inclusion strategy we've just been discussing will include the disabled. Cycling can seem off limits or too expensive if you have a disability, but one woman heads up a charity called Wheels for Wellbeing, and it offers a huge range of adapted bikes to rent or to try before you buy.

Our disability affairs reporter, Carolyn Atkinson, has been to one of their sessions for disabled cyclists at Herne Hill Velodrome in London. Shall I take this one? Okay, so I'm going on the yellow peril. My name's Nicky Parry, and I am a nurse. So Nicky, you have come for the 10am session. Talk me through what you are doing today and what's going to happen. So I'm just going to transfer into this chair. So this one is a wheelchair with one extra wheel on the front

and a set of hand turners that I can then cycle using my hands rather than my legs. So here we go. Cycling, it's opened up so many avenues for me. I can now do wheelchair basketball, I've done wheelchair tennis. You know, things are possible despite disability. And I haven't always had a disability. I had an accident when I was 19. And so I know it's like without a disability and now with a disability. That takes a lot to get your head around.

I mean, some people have different problems, but most of the bikes can accommodate that. Hi there. Hello. My name's Lucy. And I've been cycling since lockdown, since the second lockdown, so since November. My husband, my two sons, they were all cycling. And I couldn't do that because I can't cycle on a normal bike. I hadn't cycled for 15 years because unfortunately I had a stroke, which left me with a left-sided weakness. And I thought I couldn't cycle.

So I got jealous and I thought, how am I going to find a way of cycling? And luckily I came across wheels for well-being. So you're on what's called a recumbent tricycle so you're quite low to the ground aren't you and your legs are out in front of you. My balance is perfect because I don't have to worry about cycling on something that would make me fall over. I can only use one arm so I use one one of the handles and I have a brake on that handle and I also have gears on that handle I find it's totally liberating I feel totally independent being able to cycle it's no longer a sport that I can't do I can now do this with ease and in thoroughly enjoy it it's you know

twice a week I come cycling now which before I wouldn't have been able to do Emilio this is your first visit to Wheels for Wellbeing and you're standing there with a two-wheeler bike. It's really good. Obviously, I've ridden before, but it's my first time coming here. So I have a visual impairment. I was born with a visual impairment. Ocular albinism. I'm also albino as well.

I'm very independent and just getting on the bike again, it feels really good. I feel sorry for you because you're having to run alongside so I'm trying to make sure I go slow. So we're taking the first bend. First bend, which is not that bad. I just have to make sure I'm paying attention and not getting distracted by what's around because this is my first time here. It's quite impressive. It gives you that sense of confidence as well. The wind is nice and everything.

So it just gives you a real buzz? Yeah, like the adrenaline. The adrenaline of it all. Was there ever a point when you thought bike riding was not for you? Just because you have a visual impairment doesn't mean you can't ride a bike. There's so many adaptations around, so you can do anything that you want to. It's not like I'm becoming a pilot. So this was session one. Will you be back for session two?

I'll be back next week. Yeah, I'll be definitely coming back next week. Just under the straps. I'm Hazel, Elizabeth's support worker. And Elizabeth comes for cycling to exercise and strengthen her legs. She's putting her body strap onto the seat so she doesn't come off. She sits in a two-seater. Because Lizzie's non-verbal, you just have to look at facial expressions

to know that, yeah, she is enjoying it. Lizzie, you look like you're loving it. Is it good, Lil? Being out in the fresh air, she gets the freedom and the communication of being with other people that are doing the same thing so ready go oh that man said we might need to push off oh he's not wrong we're off thank you thank you so i'm standing in in the middle of the velodrome now by the sort of array of bikes that are on offer Isabel Clements you run wheels for well-being it's all very well cycling around a velodrome like

this where it's very wide and and there's lots of space but when people want to cycle around the town centre how hard is it if they're not on a traditional bike? That is a big issue. We are very much pushing for all the people who are involved in designing and producing cycling infrastructure to think beyond the two-wheeled bike. Because if you build for the side-by-side tandem, the trike, etc., you've built for everyone else. But it hasn't been at the forefront of the mind of people designing cycling infrastructure because they had the assumption that disabled people didn't cycle. So we need wider cycle lanes.

We really mustn't have barriers, chicanes, which are all over the place, forcing people to stop and dismount. So re-educating the cycling world to provide for all types of cycles and all types of cyclists is one of our major, major campaigns. Now I can see Nikki coming round the corner. She set off, I don't know, an hour ago. And Nikki, you're coming in. You're doing the final lap.

It's wonderful. Oh, yes. I hope I was removed tonight. But it's a great feeling to be tired from exercise. Yeah, here we go. I'm going to turn left. Watch out. Over the finishing line.

Yes. And she wins the gold medal. That was wonderful. It was really fun. A triumphant Nikki talking to our reporter, Carolyn Atkinson. There are other groups offering similar activities

around the UK and you can find out more about that on the Woman's Hour website. Now, being a keen mountain biker myself, I have followed the career of my next guest pretty closely. Tracey Mosley is a little bit of a league above me though. She has won countless mountain biking trophies, including the world cup downhill she officially retired six years ago and had her little boy toby three years ago like many keen cyclists who have children her life has changed quite a bit since then tracy how often do you get out on your bike these days compared to life pre having a son Toby well I would probably be on my bike six out of seven days when I was you know full-time athlete and racing whereas now if I ride

two or three times a week I'm doing pretty well quite quite an adjustment then yeah definitely I mean I'm hoping that changed as well throughout the progression of a baby actually the first probably five six months I feel like now I probably well once I recovered rode probably more because you had more nap time you had more chance to nip out for the odd hour but now that he's three and into everything and not sleeping much in the day if he ever does then there is limited time to be able to get out and ride so it's it's evolving constantly and I'm sure in a few years time when he's at school I'll get some more time back to ride. So yeah, it's an ever-changing path at the moment.

Did you ever consider combining motherhood with competing? No, I didn't. I think I had done, I'd left it late in life in many ways. I was 39 when I had Toby. So I had done everything and more that I ever, ever wanted to or expected to do in my cycling career and really got to the top as I said yeah and I was I was super happy to have you know to have achieved what I did and was grateful and thankful for it and happy for a change so there

was never in my mind this kind of like balancing act and and now having had a child I'm so glad because I think it would have impacted the time that I could have spent with Toby and to be the best mum I could be I'm I think it's tricky to try and that I could have spent with Toby and to be the best mum I could be. I think it's tricky to try and do both. There will be working mums who listen to you saying that and think, oh, they might feel that you're shaming them a little bit. Yeah, I think it's choice, isn't it? I think that's the thing. And I think we made the choice in many ways. And sadly, you know, a lot of people don't have the opportunity to be able to kind of part time work or share with their partner because of their careers.

And I think that's fortunately where I've been. I've been able to kind of make the choice and have my career as long as it was and then make that choice now and try and try and combine things as we are. And it's definitely not easy. We're tag teaming the baby to try and go out and still do a bit of exercise and still both get our work done. So by no means have I made it easy for ourselves for ourselves it's just a different choice I guess and I do know you said that Toby's into everything now and he does luckily I suppose like to ride his bike and you've been kind enough to record a bit of him doing that let's hear the two of you out together okay Toby shall we go for a bike ride yeah where shall we go up to the jumps yeah and what you going to ride to get there? Wobble bike. Wobble bike.

Can you describe the wobble bike, Toad? How many wheels has it got? One and two. Two wheels. And what kind of tyres has it got on it? Knobbly tyres. Knobbly tyres. Are you ready to go then?

Go. Go, go, go. What's your favourite thing about bike riding? I can do jumps you can do jumps? cool, do you want to show me? shall we go off and bike ride? yeah let's go

ok, what do you say at the start? 1, 2, 3, go ok, ready? no no just watch out because we're going to go really fast. Ready? Ready.

Do you like riding your bike? Yeah. How often do you ride your bike? Oh, lots of times. And do you think you're going to like a pedal bike when you grow older? Yes. It's amazing to hear him doing jumps at the tender age of three. And he obviously seems to have inherited your love of speed as well.

What would you have done if he wasn't into cycling? Like every parent that's got a strong passion or sport in their life, you obviously want your child to share that. But I'm not in any way forcing him into that. And we're really conscious of that. I think it's like we spoke about earlier in the show about that visibility and for people to see something, you know, if they don't see it, they can't aspire to do it. So it's quite natural for Toby. He's seeing us all the time on our bikes

to want to also join us. He wants to be mummy and daddy and do what they do. And he's not really jumping. He's pretending he's jumping and it's just him playing. is only three still so yeah I'm sure he'll be jumping soon what is the best kind of bike that you think you should be buying a three-year-old say or a two-year-old or whatever the best age is to start a kid on a bike I think for me the experience with Toby is just the balance bike so a little bike that without pedals without stabilizers they literally do just straddle over the bike and they just scoot along, like pushing their legs behind them. And they really get an amazing sense of their own control, their own balance. And it's incredible what they can also climb up and down.

You know, when kids first ride a pedal bike, it's actually the gears really hard. The bike's quite heavy. They really struggle to actually go anywhere other than a pan flat kind of path whereas with the balance bike they're able to kind of go up and down little you know little bits of terrain and the grass off-road all sorts of variety and it's been amazing it's actually as toby's got older we've kind of encouraged him to stay on his balance bike longer and not like start thinking let's get the the pedal bike out let's get the you know trying to get him to force him down that line because he's having so much fun he's able to get around so well on his balance bike it's a great mode of transport for him well that's what i was going to ask you how do you know when a child is ready for the next stage for the pedal bike i think well i mean actually bizarrely since i've recorded that this weekend

he we have got a pedal bike and he's had it probably for a good four or five months and he occasionally he's been on it and he's just about peddled down the yard. And he's like, that's not fun, mummy. I prefer my balance bike. And he's just always chosen his balance bike. And out of the blue this weekend, he just decided he wanted to try and ride his pedal bike and we got it out and it clicked for the first time. And we actually rode a little bit to nursery the other day down the road on

his pedal bike. And so it's, it's been his choice, really. I think it's having it there. He sees other kids that are riding them. He sees us pedaling. But it's just been very much his decision. To mums whose children show absolutely no interest in cycling, but they really want to get them into it. Is there anything they can do?

I think for me, I mean, from my experience with Toby so far, he loves copying other kids. So again, immersing yourself in an environment, going to maybe a cycling club or going to a park where you've got other kids or people that you know that have got little kids cycling and he loves to copy apparently British Cycling have a group called Go Ride which is a good way to get kids into cycling and there are a lot of these ride clubs in a lot of communities so that could be one way to get your kids into it getting back to you have you got any plans to race at all?

I know I said you were retired, but any plans for this season? Well, I still I've never stopped really racing and I don't think I probably ever will. I think I'm far too kind of competitive. I've always just loved that that side of it. So, yeah, I do have a few a few races to do. And actually, e-bikes have been something that has kind of revolutionized the cycling industry i guess in the last few years and the um motor of course and just this last year the enduro world series which was a discipline that i last raced at as a professional has now introduced an e-bike section to that race series some people might say

that's cheating lots of people say it's cheating and until you've tried it you would never know how amazing it really can be. It will never completely take away the normal bike I think there's places for both but there is now a race series and I'm going to be competing in that this year in September in the World Series again so trying to get myself back to some kind of fitness to be able to do that. I suppose I was being a bit judgmental, really, in saying that it's cheating. I mean, I suppose e-bikes really can open up cycling to a lot more people. Massively, yeah. From the kind of spanning the generational gap. So from meeting out to ride with my parents and for them to still ride with Toby, the three of us can go for a ride if we

wanted. Also people that have just not had the fitness previously to be able to get the confidence to go back and ride with a partner that rides a lot you know to bridge that gap as well in terms of fitness and just for people that potentially if they've got a long commute then they probably wouldn't choose to ride because it takes too long or they turn up too sweaty so to actually get people to ride that probably would take the car is an amazing way to also use the e-bike and anila mckenna has uh just put a message on our chat here because we are all talking on zoom anila who i was talking to earlier she says that her husband has ms and rides an e-bike so that is a real demonstration of how it can open up for those who've never used

one you do still have to pedal don't you it doesn't propel itself you definitely do still have to pedal yeah there is no throttle it is't propel itself. You definitely do still have to pedal. Yeah, there is no throttle. It is far from a motorbike. It's still a bicycle. There's definitely still a really good workout that you can get from an e-bike. It just does allow you to go a little bit further, a little bit longer. But then if your battery runs out, then it's even harder on the way home.

So you have to manage that aspect of it too. It'd be really tough. Tracey Mosley, thanks for giving us that insight into your life and Toby's life. Before you go, though, I want to play you a recording here and just see what you make of this, because it's about much more informal competing. Because even if you aren't entering races, you might still be keen to Strava your ride. Strava is an app and a website for recording your speeds and then comparing them with others. It's popular with runners and with cyclists. Traditionally, it's often been men who are competing

for the king of the mountain crown to be the fastest up a hill. But last year, the company says there was a surge in the number of women using it. It seems that they are just as keen to get the queen of the mountain accolade. Cyclist Sally Owens agreed to record her ride for us as she mountain biked up a tough hill in Gedling Country Park near her home in Nottingham. OK, so this is the start of the climb.

I'm not in too high again. Let's see how far we can go. Pedal, pedal, pedal. OK. It's hard, the final bit of this first incline gets really steep okay so this is the worst bit now. Feeling my legs. Okay, made it to the top of the first one. That last bit is so steep, and your legs are tired anyway. It's a real killer. So this is the start really of the second climb now. You can tell this hill's

not as bad as I can talk. Again it does steepen up at the top though. They've designed it deliberately. Aha! Found some cows. Gonna change gear, try to speed up a little bit, talk a few minutes of that time. I'm right at the top now. Starting to go a bit downhill. Finally! And then have a little rest to reward myself for not stopping! Good ride! Save half, brilliant. I'm feeling really proud of myself. Just have to put the bike away and check out my strider scores and see how well we got

on. Oh look at this, excellent work. I got from the bottom to the top of that segment, which I was really pleased about. But I've also got a new time, which is absolutely incredible. So my fastest time before was five minutes and 43 seconds, and I've done it today, five minutes, 37 seconds. So not only have I just smashed my last week time completely um I've beaten my overall time as well so that's really good I'm really proud of that and I'm not competing against other people particularly it's myself mainly um but when you do do better than other people have done the

same section it just makes you feel really proud back out tomorrow somewhere different thanks for being with me on my ride Sally Owen Owens there. And she did mention her best time there. She also told me that the last time she did that ride, she took nine minutes to do it. So there you go. That is the incentive of Woman's Hour. Tracy Mosley, this kind of thing I always thought used to be the domain, dare I say, of middle-aged men in Lycra, known as mammals. Why do you think women have embraced it now? I think everyone's got a little bit of that kind of competitive element in them, even if it's sometimes under the surface more than with others. And I think in some ways,

particularly, there's not been an opportunity to go to competitions. It's almost for women, it's quite like a secret way of doing it. They don't necessarily have to show up and actually pitch themselves against somebody else. They kind of can do it in the comfort of their own watch or their own app, I guess, in some ways. I struggle with it in some ways because I do worry that people, they get obsessed and also they forget about, sometimes if it's on the road, road rules, because they're desperate to beat their time the next time they go out. And they're kind of then oblivious to other users of the trail if it's off road or road. Headphones in just competing against themselves. I worry about the kind of implications and certainly on my own off road trails in the Malvern Hills here at home.

There's so many trails that I've been riding for 20 years that have now ruined because people have gone straight down the hill to get the fastest time they've not taken the trail so they're almost they're just cheating themselves and they're ruining trails so there's definitely a two sides to this debate I think it's great that people are pushing themselves trying to get fitter but I just wish it could be like a personal thing rather than trying to challenge themselves against others and to share it with the world I find really buts are just keep it to yourself but that's me personally. So don't get too obsessed. It would be your message. And of course, I should say that there are other apps available to record your rides should you wish to. Tracy Mosley and all of my guests today, it's been a joy to talk cycling to you all. Thank you very much for joining me. There is a guide to women's cycling that we've

put together and you can find a link to it on our webpage. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hi, I'm Glenn Patterson and I'm here to tell you about my new Radio 4 podcast, The Northern Bank Job. It was the biggest bank robbery in British and Irish history and one of the most daring. Carried out in the middle of a busy city centre at one of the busiest times of the year. With missing millions, burning bank notes and precision planning, it is all the elements of a Hollywood heist movie. But this actually happened and its consequences could not have been more far-reaching. I'll be telling the story of the robbery through the words of the people who were caught up in it and those who dealt with its chaotic aftermath. Just subscribe to The Northern Bank Job on BBC Science.

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