Woman's Hour - Breast cancer and cognitive behavioural therapy, The history of make-up, Second children

Episode Date: April 26, 2021

New research out today from the charity Breast Cancer Now, indicates that training breast care nurses to deliver Cognitive Behavioural Therapy - or CBT - can be effective in alleviating the distressing menopausal symptoms that some women experience as a result of breast cancer treatment. Emma discusses with Delyth Morgan, Chief Executive of Breast Cancer Now and Natalie, who had breast cancer aged 37, and suffered frequent and debilitating hot flushes and night sweats while undergoing chemotherapy.A new three-part BBC Two documentary series ‘Makeup: A Glamorous History’ explores changing British beauty trends, from the Georgian era, Victorian era through to the Roaring 20s where the look of the flappers reflected the new freedoms of the era. The presenter of the series is make up artist Lisa Eldridge.Why do people choose to have a second child and what does it mean to be one? Writer Lynn Berger in her book Second Thoughts: On Having and Being a Second Child, explores the many beliefs and assumptions surrounding position in the family and particularly second children.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. It's good to be back after a week off, especially to the news that only the second woman in the 93-year history of the Oscars and the first woman of colour has bagged Best Director. Congratulations to Chloe Zhao for Nomadland, which also won Best Film. Now, I've been walking in the bracing Norfolk wind over the last week, but it seems that there's a cold air whipping through the corridors of power and surrounding the Prime

Minister with accusations of 1950s sexism flying, something we shall return to shortly. But talking of power, how is it in your family? Who holds it? Who thinks that they do? How do they wield it? Today, we're going to be looking at the evidence behind the order of birth. What order do you come in in your family? And does it show? Perhaps it's influenced your whole life, if you are the eldest, the middle, the baby. And how does it still affect some of those family dynamics? It's often a thorny one. I'd like you to feel it's a place you can let it all hang out here with me and all of us. 84844 is the number you need to text.

I should say, as a only child, I'm fascinated by siblings, but to my fellow only children, you get in touch as well, please, with your stories of perhaps whether you felt like you missed out or maybe you had a lucky escape. How are you with how you were if you like positioned in your family and how has it affected your life and the power dynamics around you and and perhaps how you've then gone on to have children yourself we'll be getting into all of that 84844 is the number you need to text on social media or at bbcwomans.org or email us

through our website also on today's program why cognitive behavioral therapy could change the game for some of those receiving breast cancer treatment new study out on that and why pretending you're wearing no makeup when you're actually caked in the stuff is an age-old trend be finding out more about that but the role of the prime minister's fiance carrie simons is back on the front pages today with questions about her influence behind the scenes on government. Focus on who paid for a refurbishment of Boris Johnson's Downing Street flat is just part of the picture, with critics claiming, as a former head of communications for the Conservative Party,

she is the power behind the throne. Her allies say this is unfair, with Lord Goldsmith, Zach Goldsmith, who she used to work for, saying it's a sexist fabrication from the 1950s. But others say that there are questions to be asked and answered about her role, not least because she is, unlike previous other halves of the prime minister, a political operator. Can she not be both? Is it sexist to bring this stuff up? Let's talk to the journalist Dan Hodges, one of those critics. He joins us now, as does the political commentator Rachel Sylvester from The Times. Dan, you wrote in the papers yesterday, the Mail on Sunday, where you do your column, the government's eating itself alive and the real lobbying scandal involves the influence of the unelected, unaccountable Carrie Simons. You've now been called a sexist by a junior minister, Lord Goldsmith. I think you better answer that on Woman's Hour.

Well, as I said, as I said yesterday, I mean, actually said in my article that I would be subject to these criticisms from Carrie Simons' closest allies, and Zach Goldsmith is well known for being one of Carrie Simons' closest allies. So I would argue that simply reinforces the point I was making. I think you actually summed it up very well. In Carrie Simon's, we have a unique individual. You have someone who has been a professional political operator in her own right and is well known within Westminster for using those skills to influence government.

She has a role in ministerial appointments. She has a role in staffing appointments. She has a role directly in lobbying for policy. She has a role in establishing broader political strategy within the government. She has established her own personal network of allies within government. And she has established her own independent communications network in which she and her allies brief brief journalists on her behalf in relation to her own agenda. What is your evidence for those things that you've just said as fact, that she has a role in ministerial appointments, you know, she has a role in who's in and who's out, essentially, because I'm looking through, you know, what sort

of the hitback's been from Dodd-Downing Street about this, because these are quite serious, in some ways, serious points. Other people might be thinking, well, surely, you know, that's of use to the Prime Minister. Why is that a problem? But what's your evidence that she's even doing that? That would be a contested point. But the issue is that it is her own allies who themselves brief journalists, usually favourable journalists who are themselves part of her inner circle, but also others brief about her influence. you know, Dom Cummings and the Brexiteers were sort of run out of Downing Street towards the end of last year. Carrie Simons and her allies were openly boasting about what a great triumph that was for them and what a great victory it was for her. And your issue, just to now bring in Rachel, your issue is around the fact she is unelected and that potential influence. Rachel, do you see what Dan is saying, just to deal with the sexism point? Do you see that as sexist? Because you have written at length, actually, about how this largely male view of her is influencing how she's described.

So I don't want to personalise it to Dan. I'm not saying Dan is sexist. But what I do think is that a lot of the criticism of Carrie Simons is sexist. The language of Amber Lynn, Lady Macbeth, these are criticisms that are only ever used about female partners of prime ministers. And I don't think there is any evidence that she's behind ministerial appointments, for example. You know, the prime minister makes ministerial appointments. The prime minister is responsible for those staffing decisions and for policies. He's the elected politician. And I don't think just because she happens to be married to a political leader, she should leave her opinions at the door and have to sort of suddenly have no views about politics or completely forget her history. I think she's in a unique position because she's the first Prime Minister's partner who actually does come from a political background, which leaves her open to these accusations, as Dan says. But I don't see just because she happens to be Boris Johnson's partner,

she should suddenly have no opinions. It's up to Boris Johnson whether or not he listens to those opinions. And he is the only person who can appoint ministers and appoint his chief of staff, etc. Those examples you've given of Anne Boleyn, and I understand how you've described them as sexist, but do you not think it does the allegation of sexism a disservice if she is also an operator and she's being criticised for that, for being unelected? Because can a woman not be both? Well, I don't think that just because she's married to the Prime Minister or a partner of the Prime Minister, I don't think that she

should therefore have no opinions. And I'm not sure she is a political operator. Sorry, I meant by definition what her job was before and the closeness that she has to the people who are, some of the people, we shouldn't say all of the people, some of the people who are very close to the prime minister. That's what's being called into question here. Because, you know, we recently had Samantha Cameron on the programme and she talked about it being demeaning, the idea that the prime minister needed their spouse to do any of this. But actually, it is very, very different with her and her background and who her friends are compared to the likes of Samantha Cameron, who said, I'm nothing to do with this world. There is a difference. Well, there's a difference in her, Carrie Simon's background. So Samantha Cameron is a fashion designer. Carrie Simon was director of communications for the Conservative Party. So

obviously she does have a political background. But what doesn't change is the fact that the prime minister is the prime minister. He's the person who makes appointments. And that's true, whether that was David Cameron or Boris Johnson, or Theresa May or John Major or Margaret Thatcher. And I do think it's a very difficult role. Dennis Thatcher never had any of this. Philip May never had any of this. And it is the female partners of prime ministers who get this worse than the men. I suppose what I'm trying to say is, has it actually caught up with yourself? Is it actually modern to be criticising her potentially for what she is actually doing? That's what I'm saying, or she could be doing. I just think the bottom line is Boris Johnson is the prime minister.

He makes the decisions on policy and on appointments. So she was criticised for Henry Newman and Simone Finn, who are two friends of hers being appointed. But actually, the more senior appointments in Downing Street were Simon Case and Dan Rosenfeld, who are the civil service appointments and nothing to do with Carrie Simons. So blame is accorded where perhaps it looks convenient. But I suppose I was asking, where is there an inconvenient truth here where there are also things may cross over between what you and Dan are saying

and people are, I suppose, trying to distinguish, you know, whether it matters or not. I mean, Dan, just to come back to you and let you respond to some of what Rachel was saying there, where she doesn't agree with your view of her influence or role, it seems, in terms of it's the Prime Minister's job and that's what he's doing. I mean, do you not buy that?

Because we've got a message here saying this does rather imply this Lady Macbeth narrative that the men involved have no agency, which is just odd. No, the men do have agency. But, I mean, I think that's a classic example, with the greatest respect for Rachel, of what we're just talking about. I mean, Rachel just said then that Carrie Simons had no role in the appointment of Dan Rosenfeld, the current chief of staff. Now, that is factually wrong. Boris Johnson took a decision to appoint a chief of staff. Carrie Simons advised him against doing that. Boris Johnson attempted to proceed with his decision, at which point

Carrie Simons and her allies actively lobbied via the media against the person he had decided to appoint, as a result of which Lee Cain, the person who was supposed to be appointed, left Downing Street and Dan Rosenfeld was appointed. So I'm sorry, Rachel, you just said something that's factually wrong. Rachel? Well, I don't know what your evidence is, Dan. I'll just answer that. Sorry, can I just answer that? Can I just answer that? Because you keep saying it. I'll repeat. The evidence for that is Carrie Simon's own allies were openly briefing the media that she was doing that. Not her critics, her allies. OK, well, I have no evidence of that myself.

I think you do have to answer this suggestion. When you've got people briefing that she is known as Princess Nut Nuts, that is sexist. When people say Lady Macbeth, when people say Anne Boleyn, that is sexist when people say lady macbeth when people say amberlyn that is sexist dan of course that's sexist but i've never accused her of any of that i've never used that phrase against her so she is the victim of sexism so she there is sexism against her in a lot of the criticisms and those criticisms were driven by briefings from allies of you know lee kane and dominic cummings and those Vote Leave guys. But, Rachel, what we need to... You're absolutely right.

And we need to identify sexism where it exists. And would you say that... But equally, sorry, Rachel, but equally what we can't do is we can't allow allegations of sexism made by Carrie Simons and her allies to deflect from the fact that there has got to be, we are a functioning or supposedly a mature functioning democracy, there has to be scrutiny of the role of unelected individuals within government of which she is one.

Dan, there's a message, Dan, can I put this to you? The chaos arises if we don't do that. Can I put this to you? There's a message coming in saying, what if Carrie is unelected? All of the special advisers that were appointed by Johnson and other cabinet ministers are also unelected. Nobody raises that as an issue. But she's not a special adviser. She is not appointed. The special advisers have rules they have to work to. They have scrutiny they have to work to. They have scrutiny they have to work to. So what do you want? Do you want some kind of inquiry? So there's a national scandal

here. I don't know. I think we've got enough inquiries. It's very simple, as I said in my column. Either Carrie Simons has the skills that Rachel was alluding to earlier, in which point, fine. Give her a formal role in government. She can have the same scrutiny as everyone else. She can abide by the same rules as everyone else. Or the Prime Minister has to tell her to back off out of his government. So are you saying, Dan, that no Prime Minister can ever have a partner who's interested in politics because then it seems they have to have

some formal role in government? No, Rachel. I don't see why a Prime Minister's partner can ever have a partner who's interested in politics because then it seems they have to have some formal role in government i don't see why a prime minister's partner can't have an opinion uh in the end it's the prime minister's decision what appointments they make and what policies they follow you still haven't answered that point rachel they're perfectly entitled to have have have an opinion what they're not allowed to do under any circumstances is to exert their influence in an unelected way. They're not allowed to have a role in appointments. They're not allowed to have a role in staffing appointments. They're not allowed to have a role in policy. As you've listed, Dan, just very briefly on that point, Rachel, do you agree if there is evidence, if there were to be evidence that she was having that sort of role, which would be different from some of the previous spouses

that we've talked about, would you have an issue with that, Rachel? I don't think she should have a formal role in appointments or in policymaking. And if there was evidence of that, it would be an issue. But I don't think there is evidence of that so far. I mean, if it can be absolutely produced, then I think that would be wrong. And then the second thing to Rachel's put to you, mindful of our time drawing to a close together, is I should say we obviously invited her on this morning and she's not here.

You both are. Thank you for that. But, you know, she's in a position where really that role also, she could come on, we hope she will at some point, but does stop you often from having a voice. It's a kind of, it's a very weird role. What would you say to that? I'm sure Dan would also, you know, welcome to hear from her herself,

but what would you say directly, not from people who, as he says, are briefing, but what would you say about that position she finds herself in? What I would say, can I just... Sorry, just to Rachel first, if I can. I think she, I think what she needs to do is to create an independent role away from politics, which I think she's tried to do with these charities she's involved in, and her campaigning on the environment and animal rights,

all of those sorts of things. And I think she needs to create a separate, distinct identity and have a voice within that. And really separate out herself from it. Rachel Sylvester, we are going to have to leave it there for time. Dan, final very brief word, if you can, because you wanted to come back in on that. Yeah, I mean, you said she doesn't have a voice.

She literally has a spokeswoman paid for by the taxpayer. Dan Hodges, thank you very much for talking to us. Rachel Sylvester there. A message that's come in, an email from Beverly, who says, drawing comparisons between her relationship with Boris Johnson and Nicola Sturgeon and her husband, of course, he has a role as CEO of the SNP. The demonisation of the Prime Minister's partners

due to fear and suspicion. Isn't this a lot of sexism? Many messages around this. I'll come back to those if I can. But you've also been getting in touch around the role in your family and the order that you were born in. Why do people choose to have a second child? What does it mean to be one? How does that order that we are born into our families affect us in our whole lives?

This is the terrain that the writer Lynn Burgess decided to explore. It can be a very thorny area, Lynn. Your book's called Second Thoughts on Having and Being a Second Child. Lynn, why did you decide to delve into this? Well, I was expecting a second child and I had all these questions that were different from the questions I had when I was pregnant for the first time. So I was wondering what it would mean to go through a supposedly transformative experience for the second time. I wondered what it meant for my daughter to become a big sister and also for our future son to be born into a family that already existed, that had already found its routines and its ways.

And so I went and looked for books because that's what I do when I have questions like that. But unlike when I was pregnant for the first time, I couldn't find that many books that would sort of help me think through these questions. I could find tons and tons of social scientific studies on the topic, sociologists, biologists, psychologists and so on. But not a book that would sort of synthesize the findings in the science with the more personal anecdotal questions that parents-to-be might have. So I decided to write it myself. You are a firstborn. I'm a firstborn and an onlyborn. So I've been thinking about this all night since looking through your book.

What is the latest evidence that if you are the firstborn, you are more intelligent and more likely to succeed? Obviously, I'm asking for a friend. Well, it's complicated. There is a slight difference in IQ and school results between firstborns and secondborns. And firstborns do do a little bit better. But I have to say, these are averages and the differences are very small. So it would be like one or two IQ points, which I've been told by psychologists is a difference that you notice only on an IQ test. Okay, so the idea of that has been essentially debunked or it's closed to an area that you can't

really say is discernible that much anymore? It is discernible, but it's very small. What has been debunked is the idea that birth order has an influence on your personality. So that firstborns are, let's say, more responsible, perhaps more neurotic, and secondborns are more outgoing and more rebellious. That there are different personality types associated with birth order. These ideas have been around for a long time and a lot of people believe them. They sort of seem to float in the ether and you pick them out and you sort of absorb them as your general knowledge. And this, it turns out, is actually not the case. You find yourself feeling sorry for your second child a bit, that they weren't the firstborn. And this relates a little bit, I think, and tell us more about your relationship

with your sibling. Yeah, so I'm a firstborn and I was one of those sort of neurotic type A personality, high achieving students. And I felt like, you know, it's good that I was a firstborn because that's why I lived this way. Whereas my sister, who was more, yeah, she was more rebellious, more social, more outgoing. And I thought, well, yeah, that's nice when you're young, but really would have been better for her to be a firstborn as well. I mean, this is totally a self-serving explanation of who we were, obviously. But then when I was pregnant for the second time, I was suddenly wondering, well, what about all of that is true? And also, you know, I think a lot of parents end up having a second child so that the first child will have a sibling. So it's almost sort of an instrumental motivation.

And I suddenly thought, but that's not very nice for the second child, is it, to be sort of a present for the first one? So, yeah, that was another reason why I felt a bit sorry for him. Does your sibling agree with that view? Have you spoken this through? Oh, we have, yeah. So the other thing is that we used to fight a lot my sister and I um and uh and I was sort of bossy and not very nice to her um

I love the way you just sort of say that this is why I'm fascinated by siblings I watch you in all how you you know and hate each other and also love each other so much. I know. Yeah, it's both there in extreme measures. But when I was pregnant for the second time, I started talking to her and sort of asking her, well, what's it like to be a second child? Which, of course, is a sort of general question. But what I was really asking her was what it's like to have me as a big sister. And the review wasn't at all positive, I have to say. We're good now, so I can say this and not cry about it, but yeah. Well, that's the thing. It can have a very, even though you have the thought of having a child

for the child that's already there, which is what a lot of people think about, having a sibling for them, they might not get on. You know, it can be a real risk. I'm seeing some messages and some stories coming in. For instance, second child to an older brother, double whammy, not only less important than my brother, but thought of as not capable of doing anything. It can create a whole shadow and a whole view of yourself.

Yeah, and what's also interesting is there have been some studies where researchers asked parents, for instance, to assess which of their two children was the better student. And almost always parents would say that the oldest one was the better student. But even the researchers would then look at the report cards. And this wasn't always based in fact, but it was the perception of parents that the older one was sort of smarter. And it's a perception that's based on an age gap because you have two children of different ages and you usually see them at the same time and naturally especially when they're young the oldest one will just be able to do more stuff that the youngest one can't do yet so the oldest one may you know

produce beautiful drawings when the youngest is still just sort of doodling all over the paper or the oldest one maybe can do sums when the youngest can't and so you see you perceive a difference um in age but you think or parents think it's a difference in capability. And of course, the expectations that we have of our children end up influencing our children, the way they see themselves and even perhaps the way they might perform. What have you found out around the view of only children and the evidence around that? Because there's a huge stigma attached to being an only child and only having one child for a very long time. Yeah, yeah. I found there was this one quotation from an American psychologist in the 19th century

who said being an only child was like a disease in itself. And it sort of just goes on and on from there. And it wasn't until the 1980s that a number of social scientists decided to actually study whether only children were in fact maybe more lonely or more egocentric or whatever the stereotypes are. And they couldn't find any evidence that only children differ from children of small families. The one difference that comes up in some studies is that only children might have a bit more self-confidence and are a bit more motivated in school, which is hardly something that you wouldn't wish upon your children. It's quite a quiet house.

I remember going to homes with lots of siblings and being quite overwhelmed by the noise. And you do sit with adults for most of your life. But I do think it's quite funny how I still, you know, in my late 30s now, people say, oh, you know, do you have a brother or sister? And I say, no, I'm an only child. And they still look at me like, are you okay? Yeah. Pity. Yeah, and it's a stereotype that's probably just born from the fact

that, you know, only children are the minorities. Most children do have siblings. But we've sort of come to mistaken the norm for what is good or beneficial. We've got a message here saying from Jane in Cheshire. Good morning. Family ordering is a fascinating subject. I'm the youngest of three, indulged, benignly overlooked, able to get away with more than my older siblings.

My big sister can reduce me to a spoiled child wanting to assert my independence with one careless comment. I'm a 63-year-old married music teacher with three grown-up sons and a granddaughter of my own. And that's what her sibling can still do. Well but it's true those family dynamics even when you leave the house and you grow up they they stay with you and i mean and i think everyone finds this also when they for example have family reunions over christmas you immediately go back to that role that you played uh when you grew up well another one here one here. My mother has six siblings.

She's second in order. They all love chaos, fighting and gossiping about each other, but they love each other fiercely. It's just me and my brother. I feel like I missed out not having a sister. That's from Cher. And another one, just coming in again, about that love, that fierce love. Because I suppose I also read recently

that your siblings are your lifelong companions. Your parents will die. Your spouses meet you relatively late in life with your development, but your siblings are there, you hope, throughout. Yeah. And when you're young, you spend more time with your siblings than with anyone else. And they really know you from, they know the nest that you came from, which is quite unique.

No one else is going to have that same knowledge. Do you still feel sorry for your second born or have you got on board with it? I got on board with it and I found also that, you know, it's not that bad to come in second. So says a first born there to a fellow first born and only born. Lynn Berger, thank you very much for what's called Second Thoughts on Having and Being a Second Child.

Another one here. I'm the youngest and also an afterthought with siblings with six and ten years older than me. Often I felt like I'm the youngest and also an afterthought with siblings age with six and 10 years older than me. Often I felt like I was an only child or left out. Also, my older siblings would be helicoptered in and boss me about. Now I'm just getting to my career peak, but my older siblings are semi-retired and continue to undermine where I am, partly due to a lack of empathy as being almost different generations. Also being a late August birthday also meant that I felt like that at school too.

That's from Alex, who's changed the name, which you can also always do. The August birthday thing, that's now a whole other discussion I'm sure we can have at some point. But thank you for those messages. Do keep them coming in. It's brilliant to be able to hear your experiences,

you know, even if difficult. And also another one here saying, I'm an only child, Emma. I'm very grateful for it. And I watched my cousins develop those toxic sibling rivalries. They could also be one here saying, I'm an only child, Emma. I'm very grateful for it. I watch my cousins develop those toxic sibling rivalries. They could also be good for you, I suppose. Keep those coming in. New research out today, though,

from the charity, excuse me, Breast Cancer Now, indicates that training specialist nurses to deliver cognitive behavioural therapy, or CBT, can be effective in alleviating distressing menopausal symptoms that some women experience as a result of breast cancer treatment. Deleth Morgan, chief executive of Breast Cancer Now, is on the line. And Natalie, who had breast cancer at age 37 and suffered frequent and debilitating hot flashes and night sweats while undergoing treatment.

Natalie, good morning. If I could come to you first. Tell us a bit about those symptoms. Did you have any idea that those sorts of things that people think of to do with the menopause would would perhaps come your way no it isn't um being only 37 when i was diagnosed it wasn't something that had really been on my radar um obviously being a woman i was aware of it but i just hadn't got to that place in my life where I need I wanted to think about it just yet it was something for 10 5 10 15 years down the road um and obviously it was mentioned when I had my diagnosis um when I was given all of the side effects from the treatments that I was going

to have but it was kind of a long way down the list um I just don't think it was given um the attention that it needed it wasn't sort of made out to be as serious as it you know as it as it turned out to be for me and when you say serious could you tell us how how those feelings felt how those symptoms manifested for you um yeah so it happened fairly soon after I started my chemotherapy. And it just hit me all at once. It felt like I was having hot flushes. It felt like it was continuous, to be honest. But it felt perhaps like every half an hour.

So it was constant day and night um and I would just break out into sorry about this a full-on sweat or you know without warning um and it was it was just so it was horrible it's so embarrassing as well because I would be you know out looking after my children and then I was just trying to wipe the sweat off my face all the time um and then please don't apologize there'll be a lot of people you know who haven't gone through it once here but also who could relate even if they haven't been through breast cancer yeah um and then the um so it's happening all through the night as well. And the, you know, I would have the night sweats. And it just stopped me sleeping.

And it just, you know, on top of all of the other side effects, which, you know, would naturally happen from the chemotherapy, you know, if there was something that could have helped me, like CBT, which, you know, wasn't another invasive therapy, then it just would have helped so much just to have one thing, one of the symptoms alleviated when I was dealing with everything else. Deleth Morgan, Chief Executive of Breast Cancer Now. Tell us about cognitive behavioural therapy in this context. How could it help? Well, I think that the really important thing for me is that, you know, as we've just heard, that the symptoms of the menopause can be so debilitating. And there are very limited options for women going through breast cancer treatment. So it's about 85% of women going through breast cancer will have these symptoms.

And so what CBT, you know, it's recognised as being able to help with menopausal symptoms. But what we wanted to look at is how could you incorporate this into the kind of normal treatment for breast cancer? How could we get it into the core of the treatment and support for people going through it? Sorry, to go back before you move on to something you just said there in passing, which I don't know if I understand and to get clarity on, why does CBT help those with menopausal symptoms? Well, I have to say, we don't know why it does. We just know that it does. And I think there are lots of the study that we've done is giving clinical nurse specialists the expertise to deliver CBT in the setting of breast cancer treatment.

And that's what has worked. It has helped by reducing the frequency and also reducing the impact of the symptoms. So I suppose what we're really interested in is how can we get this out there? How can we get trusts and health boards to help the clinical nurse specialists that they employ offer this to women going through breast cancer treatment. And I suppose exactly what we were just hearing there from Natalie was if it was non-invasive, how welcome that could be to try and change the way you're thinking about what you're going through. Yeah. And that's it. The sessions themselves.

So the people involved in the study took part in a number of these sessions with the nurse. Sessions dealing with breathing, how to kind of think about what's happening, how to deal with the stress around the symptoms. And, you know, for that, that's a really valuable kind of investment in coping. So, you know, I can't theorise on why it works. What we know is that it does work. And of course, you know, for lots of us who haven't had breast cancer, you know, HRT is an option. So, but if you're going through breast cancer treatment, that's not an option. So, you know, because taking HRT could increase your risk of breast cancer returning so so having this you know non-invasive um you know supportive therapy delivered as part of

as an option as part of everyday breast cancer treatment you know we feel would be a really great development natalie how are things now for you did the symptoms subside with the treatment um they it after i finished my chemotherapy my body started to get back to normal the the hot flashes and the menopausal symptoms um thankfully subsided um and then actually my period started again as abruptly as it stopped, perhaps a year ago. So a few months after the treatment finished. And in terms of the idea of how quickly this could happen,

Deleth, of course, we've been hearing reports about how cancer treatment's been impacted by the pandemic. Well, absolutely. We know that breast cancer services have been hugely disrupted by the pandemic. Screening and diagnosis right through to women living with the incurable breast cancer called secondary or metastatic breast cancer. It's been really tough for all the health professionals involved in delivering these services. And I know they're all working flat out to try and get everything restored as quickly and effectively as possible. So, you know, this is, you know, the kind of thing that if we're going to, you know, they use the phrase build back better, and it would be great to take lots of the learnings that have come about during the pandemic and say, let's not go back to how we were before the pandemic, because there was a bit of a workforce crisis in breast cancer then anyway.

Let's try and build back the services and invest in the workforce to deliver the kind of support that women need. And, you know, this helping women to deal with the menopausal symptoms that are really tough. They're so debilitating. The sleep, as we've heard from Nicola, it's really hard. So let's really think about how we can make the best possible support available to women going through it. Deleth Morgan, Chief Executive of Breast Cancer Now. And Natalie, thank you to you for going back through that

and reliving it to a degree. There are links to help and support on our website. And do get in touch with us if you have a view on that, how perhaps it could have helped you if you were in a similar situation. Now, less is more, or is it? A new three-part BBC Two documentary, Make Up a Glamorous History, explores changing British beauty trends from the Georgian era, Victorian era, through to the Roaring Twenties, where the look of flappers reflected the new freedoms of the time. But it also explores some deadly trends and how women really couldn't win. The presenter of the series is Lisa Eldridge, a makeup artist who's worked with the likes of Dua Lipa, Victoria Beckham, Kim Kardashian, and I'm sure now has a whole view of how far we've come or not.

Lisa, good morning. Good morning, Emma. Tell us a bit more, first of all, about what I said right at the beginning of the programme when I was introducing that you'd be joining us. Less is more, or the idea that you are wearing no makeup when you're actually caked in it. It's actually quite an old idea, isn't it? It's a really old idea. It started in ancient Greece this idea that you know the good woman stayed indoors looked very beautiful and pretty with very natural looking makeup and anyone that wore too much makeup

was associated with loose morals and there's so much written in ancient Greece about makeup very similar to the Victorian era and and it's just something that's just stuck around. And it is still there today. You do still hear people criticising, you know, someone for wearing too much makeup or for wearing makeup that's looking natural, but they're not owning it and not admitting to it. So it's forever there. And you're looking at this, there's a lot around the desired natural look, you know, coming through. Is it more in the Victorian era that we go back to that? Because the Georgian era, tell us about that, was flamboyant. Yeah, I mean, the Georgian era, it's such a small amount of people that are really dictating these trends.

And the trends are all about flaunting your wealth. So that means the biggest hair possible, the most extreme makeup, really standing out. And it's something that couldn't be achieved by the average woman. You needed so much time, so many really servants, people to help you, and so much money that it was completely out of reach for the average person. And then following on from that, after the French Revolution, it is about having this much more natural look and being more sensible. And that really comes to its peak during Victoria's reign because she felt that makeup was dishonest and vulgar. And so because of that, women start doing what? Pretending they're not wearing it?

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. You have to. I mean, there's a huge amount of anxious feelings around makeup. Women are terrified of being discovered wearing it, not just because of the amount of gossip, because you could actually be arrested for being a potential prostitute. So there's so much anxiety, but you are expected to look naturally pretty and youthful and gorgeous, really. So there's great articles in the back of magazines, which are so elusive, you know, send a stamped address envelope and your prettiness will be revealed and you hope to receive blush. You know, everything is very covert. And there's a lot of ingenious ideas around buying crepe paper, for example, from the stationers, because that's something

that you can buy without being embarrassed. And if you buy red crepe paper, wrapping paper, you can wet it and use it as blush. And no one will ever know, hopefully, that you've indulged in makeup. So it is a really interesting... But you can't win then. So you've got to look natural, but you're not allowed to wear makeup at this particular point. And just to bring it to the present day and the type of work that you do with very famous women through to everyday women, if I could could put it like that the idea of looking natural hasn't ever gone away has it but actually you can really see now and as you probably could then that people are are wearing a mask as it were yeah well there's lots of different styles of natural makeup now i mean there is the sort of heavy natural which is

the one that you can definitely see. But there are ingenious products and cosmetic science has, you know, completely wowed us in the last 10 years, or people like me anyway, in terms of textures and formulas. And there are ways of creating very natural makeup now that looks completely as if you're not wearing makeup. But you do need a certain amount of skill, again, and time and effort and money to buy the good products. So there are some parallels there, I guess. I did mention some deadly trends that you've been looking through the history books at. Tell us about Maria Gunning, the Countess of Coventry.

Yeah, well, she made her way onto the Bon Ton from quite humble beginnings. She had a rather ambitious mother who realised that she had two very gorgeous daughters and brought them to London and introduced them to society. And they managed to bag an Earl and a Duke, which you can imagine there was a lot of anxiety around the fact that these sort of, you know, nobodies were worming their way in. But she did wear lead makeup. And I feel that she almost felt like she couldn't go out without it. So she kept using the lead makeup. Women absolutely knew, and men by this time, that lead makeup was poisonous. This had been uncovered during the 16th century century and they knew that it could kill you but she just felt that she had to wear it and she wore it every day and she died at 28 so it became a cautionary tale yes indeed and and enameling tell us about that if we don't know

i've always been i've been so fascinated byamelling because it's such a huge counter trend against this backdrop of the no makeup, makeup look and don't wear makeup. There is lots of ads in magazines all across Europe as well for this thing called enamelling. And I always wanted to make it and I didn't understand really what it was. So it was fascinating. It was mainly aimed at older women that had lost their beauty. And the advertising was incredibly toxic and negative um the worst one being madam rachel's that said without this treatment you may die unwept unloved and unremembered um and it was it was about 1500 pounds to get it done which is you know in today's money which which is crazy um but it was a bit like a chemical peel, which women, I guess,

would have today. And there was a certain amount of depilation on the face. So it was a bit like a massive trend today, which is called microblading, which is where they take off all the hairs from your face, the downy hair. And then they were put on this makeup. And I realized when I made it what it was about it. And because it's made from bismuth, it would, to some extent, help you to look maybe better or at least feel better. And it was just playing on women's insecurities. And it was something that, you know, you'd have to either get Madame Rachel to come to your house and pray to God nobody saw her going in, because there was so much scandal around her. She was arrested so many times. And again, this connection between crime, prostitution and makeup was very, very strong.

Well, people can educate themselves. The next episode of Makeup, A Glamorous History airs tomorrow night, nine o'clock on BBC Two. You can catch it on the iPlayer now. Lisa Eldridge is at the helm of that. Thank you very much for taking us through that. You're still getting in touch about our first discussion this morning with regards to the Prime Minister's fiance, Carrie Simons, former Director of Communications at the Conservative Party headquarters. taking us through that. You're still getting in touch about our first discussion this morning with regards to the Prime Minister's fiancé, Carrie Simons, former Director of Communications at the Conservative Party headquarters. You're saying women can't hide

behind sexism, allegations of 1950 sexism for criticising her potential influence behind the scenes. She's of course got an open invitation to come onto this programme and speak for herself as we always invite women to do.

Carrie Simons lives above the shop in Downing Street. That is obviously a problem. Dan Hodges, who wrote the critical article yesterday that's been particularly alighted upon, he came on at the very start of the programme. He ended his interview with us talking about her spokesperson that she has now in her role, as I suppose the Prime Minister's other half in that particular role, not her professional life, and saying that was a taxpayer-funded role. It's reported that it's actually covered by the Conservative Party. Another message here just coming in saying

we don't seem to do this to the male spouses. Keep those messages coming in. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Climate change is real, it's happening, but it's not the end of the world. I'm Tom Heap, and in a new podcast from BBC Radio 4,

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