Woman's Hour - Breast cancer scandal, Clothes recycling, Campaign against 'shame lips'

Episode Date: September 25, 2026

What is the impact of the Durham breast cancer scandal on the women affected? It's been announced that 4,500 patients will have their medical records reviewed. There has been a range of issues including some women who had unnecessary mastectomies. Health correspondent Sharon Barbour and Denise Howarth from the Pink Justice Campaign join Anita Rani to discuss. ‘Donate to charity shops as if you’re giving to a friend’ - that was the advice from author Tansy Hoskins when she joined us on the programme earlier this month. But what can you do with those items in your home that aren’t in good enough condition for a charity shop? From worn-out socks to knickers where the elastic has gone, Laura de Barra, author of Garment Goddess, and Anna Turns, senior environment editor at The Conversation, share what we can do with these items.The leading Dutch dictionary, Dikke van Dale, is adding a new word for the labia to its online edition. Alongside the traditional term schaamlippen, which translates as "shame lips", it will now include vulvalippen or "vulva lips". Campaigners across Europe have spent years challenging language they say reinforces shame and stigma around women's bodies. So why do the words we use for female anatomy matter? Communication researcher Dr Beth Mallory and Shari Klein, co-founder of the Dutch campaign Schaamteloos, which pushed for the change, discuss.It has been 50 years since the groundbreaking play by Ntozake Shange, For Colored Girls Who Have Considered Suicide / When the Rainbow Is Enuf premiered on Broadway. Now, it has a major London run in a production directed by Diane Page for The Yard Theatre's reopening. Blending poetry, music, dance and storytelling, the play follows women, identified only by the colour they are wearing, as they share stories of love, loss, joy and trauma. Diane Page discusses this landmark in African American feminist theatre which celebrates black women's voices while exploring themes of identity, sisterhood and survival.Presented by Anita Rani Produced by Melanie Abbott

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from live streaming the BBC News Channel and acclaimed documentaries to in-depth analysis and features. Visit BBC.com forward slash subscribe to find out more. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the program. 50 years after it premiered on Broadway, the play for Colored Girls who have considered suicide when the Rainbow is Enough has got its first major London production

described as a choreo poem, a series of poems connected by music, that look into the issues affecting the African-American women telling their stories of oppression in a racist and sexist society. I'll be hearing from the plays director, Diane Page. We'll be discussing words used to describe female anatomy after a campaign in the Netherlands called for a renaming of the word for labia, which is shamlippin, which translates as shame lips. Do medical words and their origins matter?

A geriatric mother, if you're having children at 35 or or off. and incompetent cervix. How do these words impact women in medical settings often when you're at your most vulnerable? And is too much tat ending up in charity shops? If a garment can't be sold in a charity shop, then it is exported. One of the countries where loads of stuff ends up from the UK is Ghana. It ends up in informal dumping sites, is burnt as fuel, is not what we want. I also think we should look at our expulsion habits and think about how much we are giving to the charity shop and what we're giving and make a pledge to donate more responsibly.

Clean the mud off your hiking boots. Before you donate them, give your trainers a clean, clean your clothes. Donate as if you're giving to your friend. Well, we'd like to hear your thoughts on this. We will be discussing it. What do you do with your old clothes? What about the grotti T-shirts, holy socks, ladder tights? Can these be upcycled?

I know there are a few creative types listening or maybe you just stick it all in a bag and let the charity shop deal with it. Get in touch with your thoughts on what you do with old clothes or anything else you hear on the program with your thoughts and opinions. Always welcome. You can get in touch on most spark speakers

by saying Alexa, ask BBC sounds to send a comment. You can text us on 84844. You can WhatsApp the program. It's 0300-100-444. And you can email us by going to our website. the text number once again 84844. But first, thousands of women in County Durham who've had breast cancer are living with uncertainty this week as news has unfolded of an investigation into their treatment. It's now been announced that the County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust will review the medical records of 4,500 patients. The trust has admitted there have been failings, including some women who had unnecessary. mastectomies. One of those we can talk to is Denise Howarth. We'll hear from her in a moment. But first, I can talk to our health correspondent, Sharon Barber, who's been following this story now

for several months. Once again, if you would like to share your thoughts. 84844 is the text number. Morning, Denise and Sharon. I'm going to come to you first, Sharon. Just reminders of why the trust is reviewing these cases. Well, we began our investigation more than a year ago. And what we began to find was just really shocking failings in the care of women with breast cancer. We couldn't actually get our head around how bad they were, but the trust was, we, through multiple freedom of information requests, we found out that there'd been warnings about the care in County Durham going back more than a decade. In fact, there was a significant warning in 2012 and the trainees were removed and then multiple reports saying something is going seriously wrong

for women in County Durham and some men, but for breast cancer patients. But those warnings weren't acted on and they were hidden. We had to really push to get that information out. And what has emerged is a picture of hundreds of women that they reviewed initially 500 records, medical records and have got through about 540 of those so far, and they've found around more than 330 women have been harmed. One woman has died. Seventy-nine women have been significantly harmed. A helpline at the hospital has taken more than 640 calls. So the picture was shocking, and I think the decision had to be, let's go back further and look at these records, and they've settled on this, going back to 2015

and looking at a further 4,500 records. So many questions. What kinds of issues, first of all, are we talking about, Sharon? So the harms include repeat operations, so multiple operations. The rate to do that in Durham was 30% compared to a national average of 15%, unnecessary surgery.

And we revealed on the BBC exclusively that 20 women had had unnecessary, very mastectomies, missed cancers. We know many women, the tests were poor, many women had missed cancers. Some of those women, the cancer has spread. The trust has confirmed at least 20 women's cancers have been missed so far. But these are early days. And when you look at those statistics from 540 medical records, 330 harms, you can imagine what the scale of harm may well end up being. The trust has now agreed to extend the review back to 2015, but how long will that take and what do you know about how it's going to be done? So they had four options. They settled on option three going back to 2015 and that will mean they will review year by year the medical records.

So it will take about five years at least and at the end of each year they'll have a look and see how many harms have been found on what they need to do. Do they need to broaden this, go back further? Will the harms sort of peter out? And we don't know, but they're going to look at it every year. The real challenge is going to be finding enough expert medical reviewers. So they can do around 80 a year each one. They have one to start with. They've now got nine.

They're desperately short of expert medical reviewers. And in fact, extraordinarily, I thought, asked me to see if we could put a call out, if there's any expert medical reviewers across the country, who may will be able to come and help maybe recently retired doctors or those who have enough time to be able to review these medical records. Another really big challenge, Anita, is that back until 2022, medical records are on computers, so electronic patient record systems. But before that, it's paper.

Now, I've seen some patient medical notes. They are huge, of us, three, 500 pages, many, many, very, very, very, bits of information are missing or eligible or just collated in a way that it's really hard. So it's going to take an enormous amount of work, not least because the MDT system, the multi-team disciplinary team meetings were really dysfunctional. So often the experts weren't in the room and the notes aren't there. Well, you've put the call out. You never know.

There might be a response from somebody listening to this. I just want to pick up on what you started by saying. which was there were warning signs back in 2012, but no heed was paid. Do we know what the trust has said about that? Well, the trust has absolutely acknowledged. I spoke to Steve Russell, the chief executive of the trust, and I put that to him, and he said that they accept the findings of recent reports. So it was a Royal College of Surgeons report that came out last year,

which really changed things because that really spelled out in black and white, how serious the problems were in County Durham. And that followed a Northern Cancer Alliance report and multiple others and NHS getting a right first time report. But what the trust said about all these reports, because we had to get freedom of information requests and to get some of these reports and to also find out about them.

They weren't publicly available. But what the trust, what Steve Russell said is they accept the findings of all these reports. They felt that action should have been taken much more quickly. We don't know the wise and wherefores, why action wasn't taken, we're clear it wasn't. And when I asked him, actually, if he felt personally there'd been a cover-up, he said there was information available within the organisation, and it wasn't acted on.

He goes on to say how sorry he is. In fact, most of the managers have moved on. Most of the board has changed. So it's a whole new set of management that are trying to organise going forward now and try and rectify this. But he did say there were no words to convey how personally distressed he was. And his colleagues worked for the outcomes and the harms that these women have experienced. And no matter how many times, I unreservedly apologize, none of it changes what happened.

And what happened was utterly unacceptable. I mean, it's very shocking to hear all of this. I'm going to bring in Denise Howarth now because, you know, no matter how shocking it's to all of us, Denise, I'm very aware that it must be a very difficult for you to hear all of that again, but also talk about it. So we're very grateful that you've taken the time to speak to us this morning. Can we start by just finding out what happened? Well, actually, it's very strange enough.

I was actually first diagnosed in 2012, but again, I had no idea of what was going on or any problems back then. But I was dismissed back then as having benign fatty tissues. so nothing happened. It went forward, and then in 2002, I could tell there was some sort of changes going on. My breast, I could feel some creasing and some dimpling effects, because I think sometimes you always expect to find a lump,

and it's not always a lump there. I just thought, I'm getting older, menopause. So after a little while, I decided I would go back to the doctors, and they had a look, and they said there was enough information there, they could tell enough that I needed warrant to be referred back into Durham. So I went back into Durham. I had it checked out that the biopsy's done. And they found out we had a stage one cancer.

I went on to have a lumpectomy done. But they found seven out of 13 lymph nodes were, obviously, it spread to cancer spreads. So I had to have a full node clearance as well at the time. I went back, well, a couple of weeks later, well, less than a week later. to have the review done. And in the review, I basically very, very sort of brushed off, very quickly an appointment. I was told, sorry, Denise, we've got bad and good news. The bad news is we haven't got all the cancer.

We don't have clear margins around what we took. But the good news is we can get you in very quickly. We've got extra clinics on. We can get you in next Saturday. So I went back in on the Saturday and had the mastectomy done. Mastectomy? That's rapidly. And what were your, I mean, it sounds like it all happened very quickly,

but what were your feelings around that time when you heard that news that's what you needed? It was awful. I mean, I'd already been in. I was still just had the drains out. I was at home. I was just recovering. I was tired.

I was aching. And then to go back in and then get the shock news of, I think I expected to go in and get told, yes, we've got the cancer, you're fine now, you know, and take the next step from there. but then to hear, sorry we've got bad news, we need to go back in and take off the breast and do a full mastectomy. It was just horrendous.

And that was just the start of things to come. I went on from the mastectomy. Go on. No, no, please carry on. I had chemotherapy. Then I had re-jutor. No, I had chemotherapy for eight sessions. Then I had two weeks of radiotherapy.

And then I'm gone with my life and I've just taken tablet home on therapy. I had support with aches, pains. struggles every day but in fatigue. But I pushed on, I got through. I had a horrible time in my life. I'd lost an uncle and auntie. My dad was very poorly, end of life stage. I was trying to juggle that with a small little big business that I run.

And then I was just sitting in the room, just quietly working away. And I've got a phone call out of the blue, absolutely shocking. Lady said, Denise, can I talk to you for a moment? I'm ringing on behalf of the NHS to just let you know. an independent review of the breast care services has found that you've been, one lady who's been, had harm done to and that we've actually done a mastectomy when we found you should have had a second lumpectomy actually done.

So what does a phone call like that do? It's just, it rocked my world. It was just, there's no words to describe it, really. You know, you've gone in, you're thinking you're under the care of these, NHS doctors, you put your trust, you put your faith in them. And then if you let down, it's just, there's no words to describe it. It's horrifying, it's life-changing. And you're part of the campaign group Pink Justice.

So tell us more about that. How long has it been running and how did it come to be set up? Well, it was about January. There was a couple of girls met and they set the group up. But I didn't come across it until about January. I'd just lost my father and I was just doom scrolling as you do through Facebook and I spotted

this group. I had parked the information about the phone call because I just had too much going on in my life and I just didn't know what to do, how to process it. So I'd lost my dad and then I'd seen about a meeting coming up with these ladies. So I thought I need to

find out what this is all about. It was set up by a couple of people and I went in there. It was four days after my dad's funeral and I walked in and I didn't even realize the BBC were going to be in the room and that's when I met with Sharon for the very first time and I sat there very quietly

as you'll remember, didn't want to talk didn't want to be filmed and at the end of it what I think really struck it was when Sharon asked had anybody had surgery done on a Saturday and that's what sparked alarm bells because I said well I had and that's when Sharon investigated and told me that they found

the thought that there was another company well the consultant the thought it was his private companies, possibly who would have done this surgery on behalf of the NHS. And what do you think we'll be going through the minds of thousands of other women whose cases will be looked at? It's awful because I think a lot of people would be frightened. I mean, they've been in Durham Hospital for such a long time. They'll have been in the services. There'll be people out there who won't have a clue, would have no idea.

Like myself, if I come across it by accident, there'll be people who were worried. they'll be looking now and seeing these stories and hearing and thinking has this harm happened to me? Am I one of these cases? You know, they'll be wondering, has there been any, you know, mistakes within their care? I think it's opened a big kind of worms up and I think there's lots of women coming forward now.

I mean, I've just seen myself within the Pink Justice Network in the last couple of days, there's been a lot of new ladies coming to join. Stories are coming out. Sharon, I mean, as... Yes. Like, as you're saying, many people, Many women listening might be worried about their own treatments.

We know that hundreds have already come forward asking for their cases to be reviewed. Sharon, what should concerned patients do? Well, there's a helpline that the trust has set up and they're urging women to come forward. And I think, Anita, it's also worth saying that so many women in County Durham, and it's a large area, have lost trust and the trust. They're not coming forward for cancer treatment. They're nervous of the trust. The trust is really urging them to contact them.

Obviously, if you found a lump or any symptoms, you must come forward. And what the trust is offering is if you don't trust that hospital, they will help you get referred to another hospital. I'll give you that helpline number, 0191-333-2126, for any women who have concerns. And it's worth saying as well, the police, along with the National Crime Agency, are also investigating to see whether any crimes have been committed. they also have a portal if anyone is concerned about their care if you go on to the Durham Police portal.

But yeah. Sharon Barber, thank you so much. And Denise, Denise Howell, thank you for taking the time to speak to us this morning. We did approach County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust for a statement. And the chief executive Steve Russell said, we have heard again today about the profound and lasting impacts that failings in our breast services have had on women and their families. we remain deeply sorry for the harm and distress caused and for the times when as a trust

we should have listened more carefully, asked more questions and acted sooner. Where we identify concerns about someone's care, we will contact them directly and make sure they receive the information and support they need. 84844 is the text number. Now, to donate to charity shops,

as if you're giving to a friend, that was the advice from the author, Tansi Hoskins, when she joined us on the program earlier this month, Here's a taste of what Tansy had to say. Oh, well, basically, she said just that, which is to give to a friend and not just get rid of things willy-nilly. So many of you have got in touch to ask what you can do with the items in your wardrobe

that aren't in good condition for a charity shop. We all have them, the worn out socks, knickers where the elastic has gone or ripped jeans. Is there anything we can do with those items? Well, listening to that is Laura DeBara, the author of Gourdes Garment Goddess, garment goddess, how to buy care for and increase the lifetime of your clothing. And Anna turns, the senior environment editor at The Conversation and author of Go Toxic Free. Laura and Anna, welcome to both of you. Anna, what do you think of what Tanzi had to say to us?

Is there too much tats given to charity shops? Absolutely. And I'm so relieved that she's highlighting it. Because charity shops must not be a dumping ground for all the stuff we don't want. There are lots of steps we need to take before we give that stuff away. I think it's very easy to think of the items in our home as sorted once they're out of our site. And actually they have a really long life from how they're made to how they're disposed of. And just passing the buck and passing it on to charity shops isn't very fair.

So there's a lot we can do before we get to the stage of handing things to charity shops in terms of making clothes last longer, reusing them, repurposing them, passing them on to other places so that charity shops aren't so overwhelmed with rubbish. Laura, what are some of the specific things left at charity shops that shouldn't be? I think one of the biggest problems that's so easy to fix is dirty clothes, soiled clothes, not repaired clothes. I don't think people realise that they can't actually take them and sometimes the whole bag of clothes, even if it has one dirty thing in there has to be disposed of for contamination reasons. So I think there's a lot of clothing that can actually go on to have another life that doesn't end up going to do that because of the dirty item or a stain.

Right. So basically we should be washing clothes. Wash, dry, as if you were literally giving it to a friend. You know, I think people feel like the spotlights off them once they leave it as a Charlie Shop door. But a lot of times people don't realize that like I would always categorize anything if I'm doing it clear out or anything like that. And I think people need to think about rags. You know, like when you have like worn out socks underwear, things that you. cannot sell and somebody wouldn't exactly want. There's a lot of different ways that the industry like charity shops, etc., can sell their rags.

So you can get between 10 and 16p for a kilo for it. But our clothing is actually such bad quality now that it used to be 45p. So like it's actually declined. And you can actually ring, like I will ring my local charity shop and I'll say, are you taking rag at the moment? They'll say, yeah, and you bag it up separately. And you just label it as ragged just to make sure that they know that's not sellable. And then they can then make money from it.

They don't make a lot of money. it just will pay for a couple of overheads but that is another thing you can do Okay so talk us through it We should have different piles for different things then Absolutely when you're doing any clear out anyway It always helps you see what you've too much of So that you prevent buying it again

You know some times people always buy the same thing over and over So I would divide it into things that can be Like you might want to make some money for yourself from it as well You might want to put it on a platform where you can sell it You might want a charity to make money from it Or I would always give my winter coats for example To a local shelter And anything I think that that can be worn by a woman to an interview

I will always make sure that that goes through a charity where they're helping women get employment. You can also, like I would categorise into sizes as well. Children's wear should be bagged separately. Women's clothes. I always ring where I'm donating to. Would you like them? Do you need them?

What are you looking for in particular? And sometimes they'll mention and say, anything over size 12 actually we'd really like at the moment. And it actually encourages you to have another look through. But you should also be categorizing things that can go to recycling. People think these bins at the side of the road are going on. No, not at all. a lot of times

there are being left bags of clothing being left outside and the rain is damaging them for example so the clothes aren't even getting to be recycled they're not going on

to do anything else so I think you've to categorise and once you do there'll be no big black bag that you put into one place like most people donations will be like in six different piles

we're learning a lot here lots of people getting in touch by the way with things that they've been doing with their rags and items of clothing and repurposing I'm going to come to some of those

in a minute but Laura, what if the items you're trying to get rid of are out of season, say you've got a thick winter coat today in July or bikinis in December? I think usually you've got to just ring and see who needs them. Like I would always ring a shelter. A lot of times they may have a little bit of storage to be able to store something as vital as a winter coat. But you could also contact a larger online provider.

Like, for example, whenever I'm donating out of season stuff, I will always get a pickup to my home. London have loads of pickups. Free pickups. The charities will come out and they'll pick stuff up as long as you bag them and fold them and clean them, they will take them from you even if they're out of season. We're all learning something. Well, I'm learning something new. So Anna, earlier this year, like a lot of major charities, including the British Heart Foundation and Cancer Research

UK, announced plans to shut hundreds of stores while smaller organisations have warned that the financial strain is becoming unsustainable. So you might also have good, quality, nice items of clothing, but no charity shop. So what alternatives are there? So this is where community networks really step in. So, So the libraries that are local to me in Devon have got lots of swaps in them. So things like costume swaps at Halloween time. There's some amazing school uniform swaps. There's a really big scale one in Huddersfield that the charity Rapp has coordinated with.

And they've, I think they work with about 180 different schools, and they've diverted 50 tonnes from landfill every year. So scaling those little community networks up is a really lovely way of making sure you're passing decent clothes onto the people who specifically need them. So organizing those or finding out if there's some local initiatives to you. But as Laura said, the doorstep collections is another option. And really, it's not just on us as consumers. So looking at if there are retailers who are going the extra mile to offer a takeback

scheme, for example, those systems are not perfect yet. but lots more retailers and brands are getting quite interested in getting involved in these things, especially for fast fashion. So yesterday I spoke to Dr Ruth Charrington at Exeter University's Circular Economy Centre, and she flagged a really massive pilot in Scotland. It's a huge warehouse called Advanced Clothing Solutions, where they're working with lots of different companies, and she's studying the scalability of them taking garments back,

deodorising them, sanitising them, cleaning them, repackaging them, and then getting them ready to rent out or resell. And so just really thinking in a bit of more of a circular way, rather than thinking I finished using a garment, that's the end of its life, thinking about how else it can be used. And another idea is also visible mending. So there's a brilliant researcher in sustainable design at Manchester Met University, Dr. Amber Martin Woodhead, who studies visible mending as a really effective way of trying to reduce the environmental impact of your clothing. So really celebrating those embroidery

or those decorative stitching efforts that you might make and making something more unique, not worrying that you've got a rip in something, thinking, okay, how can I express myself through personalising that a little bit more? And really being proud of that. And I think there's a lot of stigma in, oh, I can't wear something twice,

or that's got some damage, so it's out. And actually kind of really changing the relationship we have with clothes is the first step, like really shifting that mindset. And then thinking, okay, how else can I make those clothes last longer for me or help someone else use them for longer? Yeah. And what about Laura just reusing clothes for different things? Like when I was a kid, any old T-shirts,

shirt that's stained, we kind of use as a cloth on the house. I mean, I still do that, but I'm my grandmother's granddaughter. Like, that's like we were trained in that way. But I, like, for example, I made, I don't know if you ever seen rag wreaths. There, I made one for last Christmas, a big, out of

old bedding and basically you just make rags out of old clothes, you dye at all in a big basin of one color and you can make a really beautiful wreath for your front door. They look great. You can also send it for someone else to repurpose, because There's a lot of bed stuffing for bedding for animals, for example. There are ways that people will repurpose rags for the industry as well.

You don't have to just do it and wear it out, but you can always find someone that will. I'm going to read out a few messages that have come through. So Melanie says, I'm a Reiki practitioner and have just made an eye pillow out of material from a dress that ripped and was too old and fatigued to repair. And I'm really happy with it. Well done, Melanie. Here in Norwich, we've got another message. We have a curbside textile recycling initiative where textiles are collected alongside our bins each week. This includes all clothing, shoes and bags, etc.

But crucially, it includes things that are too tattie to send to a charity shop or sell. The textiles are then sorted by quality into things which can be donated to charity or sold by the counsellors rags. All you need to do is put the items outside in a carrier bag or bin day. I'm amazed that others may not have this option. Because I was thinking, like, everything you're saying is so useful and makes perfect sense. but some people might be thinking, I haven't got time in my life to be separating things and washing things or turning things, understanding what's a rag, what's not a rag. Of course, yeah. And also something might be a rag to somebody and not to somebody else.

Like, I'll wear my clothes if there's a sign of wearing them because I think it looks nice that you've had something for a while, but somebody may not. I think you've just got to think about your, people donate for all different reasons. I think you've just got to think about it if it is really taking up space and it is affecting how you're using your home, taking the time to do it, will give back to you in droves. Anna, it's not just clothing, though. Many of us might have old homewares that seem unusable, maybe rusted oven trays or lamps that don't turn on. Is there a home for those?

What can we do with those bits and pieces? There's often places that would use things. So, for example, one idea I had was youth theatres. So they often need props. And forest schools need old things that can be used and reused and battered around. So rather than throwing things way, talk to your local community, local groups and see if things can be reused. Obviously, you don't want things that are going to pollute the environment outside in a forest school environment,

but talk to them and see if there are options. Animal hospitals, for example, can use lots of fabric, fabric things and sometimes upcycling projects. So there might be scrap centres or people who are really passionate about secondhand furniture who want to revive something. and have a bit of a craft project. And it's just about connecting with the right people. Here's something that's come in, which is quite interesting for us to talk about. Charity shops have become too expensive. It works out cheaper to go to Primark,

which then reinforces fast fashion and everyone having way more clothes than they need and throwing them out again regularly. Why not go back to selling all clothes in charity shops really cheap? He said there's a higher turnover, less waste and less buying new disposable clothes. Oh, well, I think the overheads are much higher in it for charity shops. Charity shops aren't deciding this price for the sake of it. And unfortunately, unlike retailers who can reduce their prices, Charlie shops just can't. I think it's our value in clothing that needs to increase.

And I suppose, Anna, we also, both of you, I guess, we need to also look at the way we shop. What needs to change there? Yes, absolutely. And I think having an ecosystem for this secondhand shopping and making it a really joyful experience for the shopper is really, really important. and then that adds value to it. So in Sweden there's a really amazing mall that is totally secondhand. So it's not just clothes, it's furniture, it's homewheres, it's everything you can think of. And it's really changing how people shop because there's a real sense of pride in that.

And everything has been cared for and repaired and kind of got ready for that shop. It's not just kind of muddling through scrappy leftovers. It's really normalising that pre-loved shopping and putting it. front and centre. So having a whole mall for that is really quite innovative, I think. What needs to change? I think it's the, basically I think we

overconsume for other reasons other than clothing and I think we can't really I think our mindset that you just have to be sustainable, you have to buy pre-owned also needs to go along with if you aren't buying pre-owned you need to learn how to make your clothes last a long time. Not everybody can buy something secondhand. There's sizing that limits people, there's budget

that there's location. If we were to say oh, pie, you shouldn't be buying anything in the high street, buy everything secondhand. You're isolating people. It's a very exclusive way to think about fashion. Instead, people will be buying value clothing from high street retailers. If we learn how to wash them. For example, like our garments, we often fail in taking care of them purely by washing, reducing by 20 degrees on the washing machine, colder cycles. And just because something's cheap, it doesn't mean it's not going to last. No, and quite often people who are buying value clothing are making their clothes last far longer than somebody who was buying a £300, £300,000, eco-sustainable jumper.

Nothing new is sustainable, really. I think the judge, and kind of classism in sustainable fashion is difficult. I think learning how to make our clothes last longer, you build a relationship with your things and then the next time you go to buy something, you're examining it a bit more, thinking, hmm, will this last? I think that's the very kind of first thing.

It's not all on the consumer, obviously, but I think for our own lives and our own wardrobes, really long, and like lengthening out the lifetime of your clothing is step one. Well, you know, autumn is here. So the seasons have changed. Maybe we should all just be in our wardrobes and kind of looking through bits and pieces and deciding what we're doing,

with things that we're not going to wear, maybe get a bit creative this weekend. Thank you both for inspiring us and thank you for enlightening us. Laura DeBara and Anna turns there and you can find more information and advice on what you can recycle in your area online. In England and Northern Ireland, search for recycle now and in Scotland search for Zero Way, Scotland. And in Wales, search Wales Recycles. 84844. We've had another message saying, hi, I took some of my favourite frayed t-shirts to a local tailor and got them made in cushion covers. Very good. Your sales order says one thing. Your inventory says another.

Your spreadsheet says, good luck. O-Doo brings your business together on a single platform, from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing. Visit Odu.com to book a demo. It's O'D-O-O-O-com. Welcome to the haunted library. Have you come in search of a tale? This podcast invites you. you to browse the shelves and find stories that will linger long after you've left this place. From Gothic masterpieces to Pulpy Penny Dreadfuls, join me, Colin Morgan with new episodes twice a week. Find the haunted library wherever you get your podcasts.

Now, how would you feel if part of your anatomy was labeled shame lips? If you were in the Netherlands, that's what the word for labia translates as. But after a long campaign, the leading Dutch dictionary is adding a new word. It will now include vulva lippin or vulva lips alongside the traditional term.

Shamlippeners for this new word say language reinforces shame and stigma around women's bodies must be challenged. So why do the words we use for female anatomy matter? Well, joining me to discuss this is health communication researcher Dr. Beth Mallory and Shari Klein, the co-family

founder of the Dutch campaign, Sham Daluas, which pushed for the change. Welcome to both of you. Shari, I'm going to come to you first. Tell us about your campaign. How did it start? Yeah. Yeah, so it actually started because I have,

part of what I do is I have a platform for sexuality called the Pleasure Society. And part of the things that I do is host a radio show. So it's really fun to be on a radio show actually as a guest instead of being the host myself. And each month I invite a guest on the show to talk to me about a topic around sexuality, pleasure, or intimacy. And a couple years ago, I had someone on the show from the O Collective, which is a female wellness brand. And we were talking about sex toys and the normalization of that.

And in that conversation, I'm not really sure how, but this came up that in the Dutch language, the word for labia is, Schahn Lippen, shame lips, and my guest's first language isn't Dutch. So she was just shocked in that live show. She was a bit like taken back. And I think that it just stuck with her. So a couple weeks later, she emailed me and she said, I think we should do something with this. Maybe we can start a campaign.

And we started researching who had been doing this before us because I think it's really worth mentioning that the campaign that I set up with a range of people and organizations is really not the first thing or the first people that have really advocated for this. Right. The conversation was already happening. Absolutely. I definitely think it's worth mentioning late sexologist Ellen Land.

She passed away a couple of years ago. She was a very well-known sexologist and professor in the Netherlands. And she was one of the first to like really publicly advocate this word because she also believed that we shouldn't refer to our bodies with shame. So I think, yeah, it's not just our campaign. It's really, you know, society has to use the word. And I think throughout the years, it just started to become more popular. What was your reaction when you heard that the Dutch dictionary was going to change their definition? Very excited. It was also, I was very proud, because I think that we didn't expect it to happen so quickly.

when we started campaigning about two and a half years ago with our campaign, Schampenos, we thought this was going to take at least 10 years, maybe five to 10 years. Because a language changed like that, and I'm sure Beth will be able to touch on that later, is something that doesn't happen overnight. Like that's something that really has to be part of society. It has to be used in society for something like that to be added to a dictionary. Why does it matter in practice? Well, I think that I thought about this myself when I learned the word for Labia or Philva Lippen now,

but it used to be schanlipen in high school. I don't think I necessarily associated that word with a shame, right? I was a teenager. I was just learning biology, whatever. But I think that it just indirectly makes you ashamed of a body part. And I think that that just shouldn't be the case. There's absolutely no reason at all to be ashamed of our bodies, especially those parts of our body.

That's why it really matters. Let's bring Beth in here. Beth, what's your reaction, first of all, to what's happened in the Netherlands? I think it's brilliant. I think we have a huge number of words across different languages, which really carry a sense of stigma or embarrassment or blame. And I think it's brilliant when we can get rid of them.

And your research is all about the impact language has in clinical settings. So give us some more examples of words or phrases that are commonly used in the UK that still carry that sense of stigma. Yeah, I think in English it's especially visible in terms of the euphemisms we use. So we often struggle to name women's anatomy and anatomical processes. I think we especially see this around the vulva. We have so many euphemisms for the vulva. We have like privates, vagina and then cutesy. ones like flower and tuppence. And we have those because we have such discomfort around telling

children, this is a vulva. And we also see that in terms of the kind of misuse of the word vagina. And we also see it, I think, a lot around menstruation. So until very recently, we've talked about menstruation very euphemistically. We talk about feminine hygiene and sanitary products. And that, you know, those those euphemisms give the impression that words like vulva and period, and menstruation are unsayable. They are something to be ashamed of. So I think sometimes the stigma is really clearly located in the word, like in this example in Dutch, but in English, I think often it's located in our reluctance or most visible in our reluctance to say the word at all. Do you think medical language sometimes makes women feel judged or responsible for their

health conditions? Yeah, absolutely. So my research mostly focuses on pregnancy and especially losses that occur during pregnancy. And I think, you know, the example you gave at the top of the program, incompetent cervix is really the clearest example. So that diagnosis refers to the cervix starting to open or shorten too early in pregnancy, which can significantly increase the risk of pregnancy loss or premature birth. And, you know, in my research, participants have said to me, I just, I felt like I was directly being blamed by the, by the clinician who told me that my my cervix was incompetent and that's why my baby had just died. But we also see, I think, much more broadly in, you know, the language of failure in reproductive health care for women in

this country. We see failed pregnancy being used around pregnancy losses. We see failure to progress being used in childbirth. We see premature ovarian failure being used. And I think this really taps into a really problematic vein of self-blane, this language of deficit and failure, which, you know, sometimes crops up in men's health and around kind of the male anatomy too. But I think in women's health, it has this really significant intersection with that strong cultural burden of responsibility for what our bodies do. So especially, you know, I see this in my pregnancy loss research. There's often this kind of tendency for self-blame and kind of what did I do wrong. And if we have language that presses into that, that kind of leans into that, then it becomes actually kind of validating that.

sense of failure and that sense of self-blame, which is, you know, hugely detrimental for well-being. Shari, I'm going to bring you back in, but this is a question for both of you, but some people might say that changing a dictionary entry is only symbolic. What's your response to that? Yeah, we've gotten this question a lot from people, which I think is a valid thing to say or to think. I do think it's partially symbolic. I think that, but symbolism is very important as well. I think this word change or this addition to the dictionary because it's not like the word schachimlippen is going to be taken out. It shows that society is moving on and that we are, it's, you know, an update of our language is just very necessary. So it's not like I'm going to open up the dictionary now and think, oh, wow, I have to use that word now.

Like who nowadays opens up a dictionary or even owns a paper dictionary. it's more that a platform like a dictionary or the adding of a word it just it has a meaning and it moves so much more it's so much more than that so it's symbolic but yeah I mean this has gotten into the news right yeah here we are talking about it so we've reached international media so I think that the fact that it's being added to the dictionary was like a starting point so that's That says a lot. Yeah. Yeah, Beth, I mean, words matter, but also, as you've said, you know, it's how do we move. We can change the words, but it's about progressing how people view women's health, women's bodies, how women themselves feel about their own health. So, you know, how do, so what, I'll ask you the same question. You know, is it just symbolic and is it important?

I think it's absolutely important. I think, you know, I think Sherry said, you know, it's just the start getting it in the dictionary. and I think I would conceptualise it a little bit differently. I think actually if this was the start, if some dictionary editor had just decided to make this change, then it would be a lot less meaningful. It's meaningful because it's come from a grassroots movement where people are saying, actually, this is my body,

and this is how I want it to be talked about, and I don't want it to be characterized in that way. And I think that's where the most meaningful linguistic changes happen in this space is where it's come from a kind of grassroots, resistance that says no actually you know men mostly have had the monopoly on naming the ways the ways that our bodies work for too long and we are going to resist that and challenge it and then actually when that becomes when that snowballs and you know gains traction and it does kind of enter into the mainstream and gets codified in dictionaries and things like that and medical

guidelines um that's a real success for those grassroots movements Someone could really go to town, just the word shame lips. It's just, I just can't, yeah, I'm just thinking about the man who decided to name them. I know. What, what conversations very quickly? Why do you think, Beth, that we feel so uncomfortable? What is it about the female anatomy that makes people feel so uncomfortable? I think, I mean, in English, I'll speak to English specifically.

I think we teach, we teach kids from early childhood that female anatomy is underage. sayable in a lot of senses. So we really shouldn't be surprised when people become embarrassed to say the real words. So, you know, I mentioned the euphemisms, private parts, flower tuppence, and the misuse of vagina. If we kind of use those cutesy terms with children, then they are going to find it difficult to go into a medical setting and say, I have a problem with my vulva, for example. And I also think we have this in English, particularly a long history of linking female genitals with sexual shame and obscenity. You know, I've been thinking a lot since this has been in the news about, you know, the most taboo swear word in English is the C word. It's a word for the female genitalia.

And if we have those kind of cultural associations where we think about, you know, a word for female anatomy that's been historically loaded with disgust, aggression, taboo, then those patterns are inevitably going to carry over into healthcare. You know, if we learn that a body part is unsayable, then we're going to find it more difficult to talk about it in society and in healthcare. Well, thank you both for joining us, Dr Beth Mallory and Shari Klein. 84844 is the text number. Now, parenting can be exhausting, but when does ordinary tidness become burnout? On the most recent episode of the CBB's Parenting Download podcast, Katie, Thistleton and Governor Bee

explore the warning signs of parental burnout and how to manage the mental load many parents carry. They were joined by author and broadcaster Ashley James. I feel like when I get to a point of burnout, I almost go manic in my brain. And I always need a list anyway to help me tick down. But the only way I can describe it is like there's multiple tabs in my brain and they're all like flashing up at once. So even though I'm like, right, I'm going to write an email.

And then as I write the email, I think, right, I need to go brush Alfie's teeth. And then on the way to brush his teeth, I'm like, oh no, I need to do that email. and then I end up flicking between like two of them unable to do either and then I have to like sit down and look at my list again and think focus and it's really simple things that obviously I should be able to do chronologically but it's like this very manic and also the the lack of sleep like feeling exhausted

and almost like having lead on your body at the end of the day but then also like just sitting up late and even thinking like right if I reply to these emails now but then my brain's tired so I can't reply to the emails and then suddenly it's really late at night. So yeah, I think, I always say I know that I've reached a point of burnout when I start fantasizing about getting ill enough to have to go to hospital because I need that detachment from responsibility. And then I'm like, I think I need a break.

Ashley was also joined by the clinical psychologist, Dr Emma Hepburn, for her advice on spotting the signs of burnouts and how parents can deal with it. You can hear that episode, parental burnout by searching for, CBB's Parenting Download. Now, 50 years after it premiered on Broadway, a ground-breaking play examining racism and sexism gets a first major production in London. Called Colored Girls Who Have Considered Suicide When the Rainbow is Enough,

the show has been described as a choreo poem, combining verse with movement, written by Enterzake Shange, five African-American women only identified by the colors they wear, share poetic monologues about love, lost, violence, motherhood, loneliness and survival. The show's director is the award-winning Diane Page. And she joins me now. Welcome.

Thank you for having me. Oh, it's an absolutely our pleasure. First of all, just how important is it that this is being put on at the yard in London 50 years after it was first shown in Broadway? Yeah, it's kind of wild to me that it hasn't been done sort of more regularly. It was such a seminal piece of work when it was first done all those years ago. in the US. And it feels, you know, I think it's really testament to the work and the writing that many of

those themes are able to resonate now. And the piece means so much to people, whether they know it or they don't know it. So that's why it felt important to bring it back and at the yard felt like the perfect place. Before we find out about the production, how you put it on, let's get some sort of understanding of who the writer was and the time that it was written and the style in which it's written choreopoam. Tell me more about that. Yeah, so Entersasaki described it as a choreopoam because it's a mixture of poetry, movement and music. And I guess those elements work together to really bring to life the story,

you know. Ender Sarki had, came from a dance background herself and was a poet and was able to, I guess, like kind of create this new form that didn't sort of follow the kind of traditional or begin and middle and end or three extra or whatever. So yeah, it felt like a really new and exciting form at the time and still feels like that now, 50 years later. So, yeah. That's testament to the writing and all of it. I mean, the play addresses the intersectionality

between racism, sexism and class and gender. Yeah. Yes. So tell us more about how she explores those themes. Well, like through a range of different like, like thematically, like different experiences that I suppose like women experience overall, but specifically this being about women of colour and how those themes and like the intersectionality, how it affects them and what it means for them and for us moving through the world.

And for people to be aware of that, it's how those things affect us. Does it make it accessible? the way it's been put on? I think so. I think so. I think sometimes if that's not the life you lead, sometimes it can feel maybe a little bit intimidating to hear those things.

But actually, and not only that, it feels honest and truthful, in a way that feels, yeah, like important for our lives. So yeah, I think it is accessible and hard. It's hard. in what way i think it's hard to hear sometimes some of those things and i think even it's hard um you know for the actors to have to like say that stuff every night and you know to to to to even have to to like rehearse it and really delve into things for themselves and even for my for myself you know

there's some things that feel very personal um so yeah it's it's it's challenging but worth it i'm always fascinated to understand what it's like when you um are working on a production where your story is being told in a way that maybe it's never been told before, or, you know, it's the first time as a director or an actor you are getting to really honestly talk about something you can relate to and your experience. Like, what does that do in the rehearsal room and to the whole experience of being involved in that production? Well, you can approach it with real honesty and real authenticity. But within that, there's a cost to it because you're having to maybe talk about parts of yourself that are difficult or experience. that you may have had, you know.

So although it feels important in terms of for the people that it's for and are going to come and are going to come and watch it, there's still a cost to it for all of us, you know. Can you explain a bit about the production for people who are listening and what they'd see when they arrive and how it's staged? Yeah, so it's at the yard. We don't have any set traditionally because it felt to me that it was important that it took place just in the space, like bare walls, everything.

I love the yard, by the way. I think it's such a great theatre and it's very intimate as well. So you really feel that you're part of the production. You're not separate from the stage. Yes, exactly. That always feels important to me, but also is like the main idea of not having anything else on the stage is I just wanted these women to be taking up the space with their bodies, telling their stories, with nothing else there.

And each of them is represented by colour. Yes. Yeah, yeah. You know, and those colours will have, we make different associations with those colours that feels quite, it feels quite apparent in the writing as well. As I said, you know, it addresses racism, sexism, class. But the play also exposes gender-based violence and the trauma inflicted on black women. Can you tell us more about that? Yeah.

I mean, there's some hard-hitting. pieces that talk about sexual abuse, abortion as well, in a way that what Enstaki is exploring in the writing is sometimes, and I think this feels very relevant for now, sometimes the shame that's inflicted on women for those things, particularly more so as well with the story, the story, the poem about abuse. Sometimes the blame and the shame being put on the women it happens to. And also as well, there's another poem that the final poem which explores domestic violence and it ends in quite a catastrophic way and just about sometimes the warning signs that are

leading up to that that sometimes people and communities don't pay attention to and then ultimately those signs always be in there. things don't just happen out of nowhere and then ultimately who the victims of that are and in this case black women. And it was written 50 years ago. Yes, which is the brilliance but also in some of it the tragedy of it

and it's not just about trauma, it is about joy and sisterhood and community but it is alarming how some of those themes are still so relevant and could have been written yesterday. Yeah. What does the play say about sisterhood and the resilience of women? Oh, just about, you know, finding the joy in the community and the sisterhood within ourselves, you know.

And one of the very famous lines in it is about, is, you know, I found God in myself and I loved her. I loved her fiercely. And that doesn't obviously mean, has to mean within a religious context. I think that's about finding self love. Yeah. Like finding that thing, whatever it is within yourself and being created. enough to love yourself and courageous enough to, you know, love other women around you. And that, that for me, feels like the really important part of the piece and what I want people

to leave with. It's that. Oh, Diane, I've got goosebumps just hearing you talk. And I have to say the courage of you and the actors to put it on. And I cannot wait to come and see it just to experience that and to actually sit and have conversations with women after watching it. I guess that's what this is all about. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. And you can see the play at the yard in London, which has been newly reopened.

Now, we've been talking on the program earlier this morning about a very distressing story about breast cancer. And I must say, if you have been affected, then do go to the BBC Action Line for support. That's it from me today, but do join me tomorrow for weekend, Women's Hour. Thank you. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Zandi, happy anniversary. What are you talking about? Have I missed something? Yes, Sand, you have. We are over a year into making WhatsApp docs. You didn't even get me a card. Is it really over a year?

It is. Think of all the episodes we've done. How to look after our feet, our shoulders, our hips, our teeth. We've explored snoring, cholesterol, the immune system, endometriosis. All with the help of expert guests. I think it's fair to say we have plundered the world of health and well-being, equipping ourselves and our listeners, with the best information out there on how to look after our our minds, our bodies, our souls even. And we're not stopping, are we, Chris? We're most certainly not, Sarn't. We have a lot of new topics coming up.

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