Woman's Hour - Brexit negotiations, Parenting a shy child, Cook the Perfect with Claire Thomson

Episode Date: December 9, 2020

Boris Johnson is in Brussels today to have a face to face meeting with European Commission President, Ursula von der Leyen. They’re trying to find a post-Brexit trade deal. So how will the dynamics work between the two? Sonia Purnell used to work with Boris Johnson in Brussels when they wrote for the Telegraph together. She’s written a biography about him. And Maria von Welser knows Ursula von der Leyen. They wrote a book together about women in German society.What’s the best way to approach shyness in your child? Nadia Finer joins Andrea to offer her advice. She runs an online programme called The Mighty Mob. It's for 7-14 year olds who want to feel braver, more able to speak up and join in, and more comfortable to be themselves. Nadia, who is shy herself, says that shy children do not need to change who they are, nor should we make them. In her new cookbook The Home Cookery Year, Claire Thomson offers solutions for quick dishes that are easy to make in minimal time at the end of a busy working day. The former chef and mother of three discusses cooking with her children during lockdown, with only half a kitchen, and how to Cook the Perfect…Brussels Sprout Galette with Pancetta & Chestnuts.We’ve been asking women how it feels to reach the age their mum was when she died. Today’s story is a bit different. Beth is 24 and her story is complicated. When she heard we were looking for stories on this subject she thought, at first, that she didn’t have anything to say.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger.

Listen wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Felicity Finch. And before you listen to this Woman's Hour podcast, a quick word in your ear. After a year like no other, many people are facing homelessness this winter. The 2020 BBC Radio 4 Christmas Appeal with St Martin-in-the-Fields is more urgent than ever. This year, St Martin's has supported hundreds of rough sleepers in London and awarded over 4,600 crisis grants to get people into accommodation

and provide basic essential items in every part of the UK. Your gift could give someone the key to home this Christmas. Please support the BBC Radio 4 Christmas Appeal with St Martin-in-the-Fields by donating online on the Radio 4 website. Whether you're a long-standing donor or this is your first year, thank you. Hello and welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast for Wednesday the 9th of December. I'm Andrea Catherwood. What can you do to help your child if you think they're shy? It's something that many parents and children experience and worry about. We've got a coach who runs an online programme here to give advice.

If you've got a question, do get in touch with us on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. Or you can email using the website and thank you to those who've already done so. Also today, another in our series, asking women how it feels to reach the age your mum was when she died. We've got a slightly unusual story today, and I think it's really worth listening to. Now, if like me, you feel that you have never done so much cooking as you have in 2020 with children, partners or just you studying, working, being at home so much, then I am promised that chef Claire Thompson will be providing some simple solutions in our Cook the Perfect a little later on, involving that seasonal marmite of foods, Brussels sprouts. But first, we don't know what's on the menu in Brussels

tonight. Sorry, that is a terrible link. But we do know that the Prime Minister is travelling there for dinner with the European Commission President in the hope that a face-to-face meeting between the two leaders will secure the breakthrough in the Brexit trade deal that has so far eluded their negotiating teams. Well, Boris Johnson is representing the UK, of course, and sitting opposite him at the dining table on the EU side is Ursula von der Leyen. She took over from Jean-Claude Juncker as president last year. So we thought this might be a really good time to find out more about Ursula von der Leyen, who she is, her negotiating style,

and how she and Boris Johnson might get along. The consequences of that, of course, could be very important for all of us. Well, I am joined now from Germany by Maria von Welser. She is a journalist, an author, and a university lecturer who wrote a book with Ursula von der Leyen about women's roles in German life. And by Sonia Purnell, who was Boris Johnson's deputy

when he worked for the Daily Telegraph in Brussels and has written a book about him, Just Boris. Welcome, both of you. Maria, if I could say... Hi, Andrea. Hi. Maria, Ursula von der Leyen, she's the first woman European president, of course, of the commission.

She was also the first woman to become the minister for defence in Germany. But she came to politics quite late, didn't she? Yes, she came late to politics because first she was studying medicine. She is a doctor. And then she moved into politics. Her father was a prime minister in Lower Saxony in Germany. And she was born into a

politician family. They lived as well in Brussels. She is fluently in English and French. And she is very committed to politics. She studied at the London School of Economics as well. So she knows England and the UK very well. Yes, she knows it very well.

She is really a European woman. Tell me a little bit about her early life, because as well as being a doctor, she also had seven children. So she has really been a multitasker. Yes, I'm happy that you are putting this question like you did, because normally I answer, I never ever answer a question how a woman can manage children and business like she did, because you don't put these questions to men. There's plenty of us doing it, isn't there? No, she managed it. She had helping hands at home. I was producing a documentary on her and on her life for the NDR. That's a northern German television and radio station.

And she's perfectly well organized and she's always getting very early up. And in the last years she lived very close to her jobs she had a bedroom close to her job in Berlin she has a bedroom now in Brussels I heard close to her office and the mixture of organization and toughness I think that's one part of her success. Very interesting. Thank you very much for now. Sonia, Ursula von der Leyen and Boris Johnson. We've heard that they both spent part of their childhoods in Brussels.

Both their fathers worked there. They both have a lot of children, although possibly different parenting styles. Am I clutching at straws here? Do they actually have much in common? Well, I mean, the optics are completely contrasting, aren't they? I mean, she's small, petite, slim, incredibly well-groomed and well-turned-out. I mean, she's disciplined even in the way that she looks, organised. He's got rather chaotic hair all over the place, suit crumpled, tie slightly adrift. So, I mean mean when they stand side by side i don't know if we're going to see photographs of that but the contrast will be

quite startling i think i think that also um reflects their personalities i mean again she is very disciplined i understand but she can be very friendly i was speaking to a friend who's met her several times and said that she is extremely friendly. But underneath that friendliness, there is this great sort of steel and resolve that she wouldn't have got where she got without that. On Boris Johnson's side, obviously, there is also a steel. But the organisation, the attention to detail perhaps isn't there. It's going to be a very, very interesting meeting. And in effect, he is the supplicant here.

He knows and she knows full well that the country that's going to suffer most and suffer horribly from a no deal is the UK. It is up to him to try to prevent that absolute economic wipeout, social, political, economic wipeout that no deal would present. Therefore, she has the power. He is the supplicant. This is not something that he will feel comfortable with. He doesn't deal with powerful, authoritative, clever women very well. Anyone that he sees sort of remotely as a threat to his own kind of standing, he finds very difficult. And I speak as his former deputy in that way. Indeed, although obviously over the years, he has dealt with an awful lot of powerful women. I mean, he was the deputy.

You know, he worked under Theresa May. He's worked with Angela Merkel. He's had a lot of women around him. He treated Theresa May. I mean, he was never loyal to her. And he made her life very difficult. I mean, I think if you ask Theresa May what she honestly thought about the way that he treated her, I think you might get quite a sort of fierce response.

Sonia, tell me, do you actually think that it does make a difference that Boris Johnson is negotiating with a woman tonight? I think it does. But I think that she is clever enough to try and make that almost into an advantage. I mean, I suspect, and again, last night I was talking to some friends in Brussels, that what she might do is try and flatter him. Say, look, it's brilliant that you've got the COVID vaccine going. It's amazing that you survived COVID yourself and got back to work so quickly. Really, I understand your problems with your back benches, but don't you think that maybe if you did this, that your place in the history will be assured? And if you save your country from no deal, that that in effect is the most wonderful thing that you can do? I mean,

I'm told that this may be something that she does. And so that in a way, she plays the role that he likes, which is sort of women kind of flattering him. And she's tough enough and prepared to do that for the sake of the EU, because it's not great for the EU either, obviously, if we have no deal. It's interesting. It'd be very interesting to see if that's what she tries to do. Maria, you have written a book with Ursula von der Leyen. And so you know what it's like to collaborate with her. Is she somebody who can seek compromise? Is she somebody who will, she will know Boris Johnson's

style, the charm and the bluster? How do you think that she will be able to work with him tonight? She will be able to work with him tonight if he wants a solution. If she realizes that he's like a wall and there's no chance, he's only flattering with her and flirting with her, she could be very cool and perhaps very hard. I really hope for everybody of us that they will find both a solution. I really think they must find a solution. But it's not a question of man and woman, woman on the other side. It's a question of facts. And that happened in Germany when she became our state secretary

for women, children, family. Men, especially in politics, they said, oh, she's a hated mother of the nation. They couldn't differ between facts and emotion. She was nice looking, as Sonja described. She's a small, well-looking person. She could be very warm. She's intelligent. And men always always ask how could this happen seven children and this job the same same procedures every year

but um i think it will be hard for her tonight and i really hope for Europe and for UK, for your country and the people living there, that they both find a solution. She pushed a lot of laws forward in Germany. She was really, really powerful. She took only four billion euro from the pockets of the state secretary for finances to finance kindergarten. She tried to introduce schools for the whole day. We didn't have schools till today for the whole day in Germany for children. It's amazing. She changed the tax system. Housemates, nannies, you can now use to reduce your tax pay every year.

She was fighting against the so-called tax splitting rule for married partners, which is unfair till the end. She did a lot and she managed a lot, but she wasn't never loved. That's true. Sonia, we've been surprised before by Boris Johnson, haven't we? We know that he's actually quite close to Emmanuel Macron, the French leader. They text each other. And when he met Leo Varadkar, who was then the leader in Ireland last year, at a manor house in Cheshire, Northern Ireland was a real sticking point.

It really looked like it was going to be extremely hard to get round that. And then they appeared together. There was a breakthrough. It wasn't expected. Do you think something similar could happen tonight? Well, yes. Of course, after that breakthrough, things went backwards very, very quickly. But there was that sort of man to man walking around the garden. No note takers, no officials. And something was done, even if it was undone later on. To get that kind of, you know, person to person sort of relationship rapport tonight is harder to imagine.

I mean, A, because it's over dinner anyway and it's at night, so presumably a walk around the garden is not on the menu. But also just, you know, we're so close to the end now. We're so close to the abyss. In a way, there isn't that luxury. I mean, all we have is them having dinner. But the other thing to remember is that the EU has its own problems over budgets and all the rest of it. So she can't devote all her time to Brexit. Well, I have no doubt that we will find out in detail what they had to eat tomorrow morning, even if we don't know exactly

what they talked about. Maria von Wessler and Sonia Pernell, thank you both very much indeed. Now, many of us have felt shy at points in our life and we have worked to overcome a natural shyness or been happy to accept that that's the way we are. But what should you do if you're worried that your child is very shy? Can shyness be, in fact should shyness be fixed? Well Nadia Feiner is a shyness expert. She runs an online programme for children who want to feel braver, more able to speak up and join in and she joins me now. Nadia welcome. Hello, thank you for having me. Nadia the reason that you became so interested in this was because you were shy yourself growing up. And I know many people would find it hard to articulate what

that's like. But I imagine that you've thought about this a lot. So can you tell us what the difficulties were, what it felt like to be very shy? For me, being shy feels like you've got a kind of resistance band around you and it's holding you back. So even if you want to talk to people, even if you want to perhaps share your ideas or be seen, you feel like you can't because fear or uncertainty just feels too uncomfortable, awkward, so you hide. But you aren't hiding now. I mean, you're here on national radio. You've managed to overcome those fears and the shyness. How did you do it? It's been a journey for me. That's why my project is called Shy and Mighty, because I am still shy. You can probably tell I'm really nervous right now.

But I think it's really important to push yourself forwards. Once you start to understand your shyness and see how it's impacting your life, you can take steps to overcome the aspects of it that hold you back. But a little at a time, that's the key. Well, a lot of parents have written to us on this. And we know that almost all children are shy when they're very little, especially around new places and people. I'm sure that's completely normal.

And so one question that parents are asking is how do you actually judge when shyness is becoming a problem for children? So I think first of all, it's really important to emphasise that shy people are not broken. We don't actually need fixing. 57% of the British population are shy. So if you think about it, that's roughly half. So this outgoing ideal is almost a kind of artificial construct.

The idea that everyone should be loud and outgoing feels like the norm when actually you need a mixture of people. So I think the first thing to consider is do we need to do something about this? If you feel like your child, or you in fact, are missing out on opportunities, that you're living your life in the shadows, living a smaller life.

That's an issue. But we need to be careful not to judge based on this outgoing ideal. Indeed. And of course, one of the questions that parents ask is, is my child being shy affecting their enjoyment at school and even their attainment? We've had a situation this year in the pandemic where teachers have assessed grades and so there are parents there are parents who are wondering if my child isn't that uber confident boy or girl who's putting

their hand up and answering every question could it actually affect them negatively is that something that you have to deal with I'd love to say that that's not the case, but unfortunately it is. When you live your life silently, hiding, you miss out. You're underestimated, you're overlooked, you're ignored. And that does have an impact on performance at school, on attainment. And in my research, I've also found that it has an impact on achievement in work, also happiness levels. And shy kids often become shy adults. And unless you do something about it,

unless as a family, as parents, as teachers, we perhaps intervene to support and encourage shy kids. Even just talking about shyness, it's not discussed. So what can parents do if you're worried that your child is shy? What are the steps you can take? OK, so I think the first step is awareness and looking at what shyness is for you and your kids so how does it impact their lives when do they feel shy what triggers it what makes them feel more comfortable, then I would try to embrace their skills and their unique talents. So I think with this outgoing ideal, we forget that actually being shy and reserved has a

lot of qualities. There's a lot of good things about being shy. You perhaps are more cautious, you think things through more deeply, you're empathetic, you form deeper relationships. And yet we brush over all those things, trying to kind of mould people into a more extrovert or outgoing version of themselves, which I think is damaging. One listener has asked what happens when she's got two daughters, one is six, one is eight. The eight-year-old she describes as confident, popular, a natural leader. The younger one, she says, is kind and funny and caring, but very shy. So she's worried the younger one will sink into the background. She is worried that that frustrates the younger daughter. What can she do to help her younger daughter be heard?

I think within that question I do have a little bit of an issue with it because it's the wording around but she's shy. It's not a disability to be shy. It's arguably a personality type. Many people are just born shy that's the way they are but in terms of what you can do i think understanding that um competition when you feel you're in a competitive situation whether that's in your family in the classroom or in work even it's very tempting as a shy person to step aside and to feel like you can't possibly compete because you're not like the outgoing ideal and therefore you don't get involved you just hide so understanding that and almost talking to your family about the fact that people come in different

shapes and sizes we look different we sound different we think differently and we behave differently then I would also look at ways to help Mabel I think she was called Mabel, to feel more comfortable, understanding, comfortable courage. It's about taking little steps forward, tiny steps. In the work that I do with kids, the steps that I encourage them to take are much smaller than the steps you would imagine. So suggesting someone, oh, just put your hand up in class, that can feel like an enormous, insurmountable goal. Right. And just before we go, is there anything that you would say are the kind of absolute don't do it's if you're dealing with shy shy kids what are the things you should never say to them never tell a child to stop being shy because you can't change your personality

um i think instead looking at these steps that you can take forwards um getting help that you need and that's why i created shy and mighty and the Mighty Mob to help kids realise that they're OK the way they are. But if they need a little bit of support or some structure to taking those steps forwards, then there are resources out there for them. Nadia, that is really interesting. Thank you so much for coming in. Nadia Feiner, thank you. Thank you so much for coming in, Nadia Feiner. Thank you. Thank you. Now, I know that many of you really enjoyed Jane's interview on Monday with Dame Stephanie Shirley, better known as Steve, on Woman's Hour. If you did miss it or any of our live programmes, you can catch up by downloading the BBC Signs app.

Search for Woman's Hour and you'll find all our episodes. And we do love to hear from you, so please do get in touch with us. You can text Woman's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate and do check with your network provider for exact costs. On social media, it is at BBC Woman's Hour and, of course, you can email us via the website. Now, you may have heard some of our listeners over recent weeks talking about what

it feels like to reach the age your mum was when she died. Today's reminiscence is a bit different. Beth is 24 and her story is complicated. When she heard that we were looking for reflections on this subject, she thought at first that she didn't have anything to say. Oh, I'm sorry, we don't seem to be able to play that feature right at the moment. I'm hoping that we can actually find Claire Thompson, who is on the line. Claire has written a cookbook called The Home Cookery Year. And it turned out to be very prescient, because many of us feel that whether or not we wanted to, we've had a home cookery year and it turned out to be very prescient because many of us feel that whether or not we wanted to we've had a home cookery year in fact sometimes I feel like I've had one of those

about twice a week and Claire is joining us from her kitchen in Bristol and she's going to cook something festive for us but just before we get to that Claire I did allude to the fact that some of us have felt rather chained to the kitchen at times during lockdown. And it can seem rather endless with everyone home all day. How was lockdown for you? Oh, do you know what? I feel very lucky that, you know, it was OK. I think I've got perfect age children for lockdown, really. So my kids are 13, 10 and 7.

So not teenagers wanting to go out so much and not too young to sort of need too much. So I felt very lucky and it was good really we sort of did a crash course in cooking throughout lockdown one and a bit of two too. So you actually you you have um an Instagram uh you're you're called I think it's at five o'clock apron aren't you on yes on Instagram and during lockdown you posted videos of you and your children cooking together and so it was all very much about kind of cooking for kids. What kind of feedback did you get for that? Do you know, that was just brilliant for me. Instagram felt wonderful, really.

It felt like a sort of opportunity for me to sort of show that I wasn't really sitting in an ivory tower writing about food and sort of making it difficult or esoteric, really. We just I just practiced what I preached, really. And we cooked the book. So I finished the edit on the book just as we went into lockdown and from there on in we just started cooking our way through the book together it was brilliant so I mean it wasn't I mean I suppose people sometimes feel like oh gosh it was a completely perfect and idyllic um but it wasn't it wasn't perfect was it because the old the kitchen wasn't quite there was it? Yeah I wouldn't have planned doing my kitchen in a pandemic before no no we had a wall the wall was missing we had no oven and no sink so I was washing up in the bath

and cooking on a on an induction and in the summer we had a sort of barbecue outside yeah it was it was um it was interesting. Now I've got three sons and I did get them cooking a lot, for which I hope that I will have the endless gratitude of any future partners or flatmates. But they are teenagers, and so they're very strongly motivated by food, a bit like Labradors. But if you've got younger children, how do you encourage them to get into the kitchen?

Do you know what? Just get them going from an early age. So I always think that kids actually quite like washing up. My goodness, that's impressive, if you've got your kids washing up. Well, you know, stand a toddler on a stool and give them some hot soapy water. And you're sort of, you know, it's not teaching them to wash up properly, but I think you just incrementally make it a very natural environment to be in. So picking herbs, grating cheese, you know, my 13-year-old's pretty good now.

Tell me about the recipe that you've got for us today. I know it's got Brussels sprouts in it, and I think we should just probably address the Brussels sprout issue because it's lovely to have something seasonal. But I do know that a lot of listeners will be going, oh, my goodness, not Brussels sprouts. Oh, Brussels sprouts boiled to death are horrible. I don't think anyone actually likes them. So I find if you chop them up, shred them really, and then fry them hard, the natural sugars caramelise and Brussels sprouts become this really lovely, sweet, sort of rich, sort of nutty vegetable. And, you know, on this galette with pancetta and chestnuts, it's just delicious and so simple, really. It's not really rocket science. It's easy to put together and you can have that on the table,

you know, in 25 minutes, really. And would you do that as a main meal claire as opposed to just an accompaniment on christmas day no i wouldn't do it on christmas day i think i might get a few um raised eyebrows sorry i didn't i meant i meant on christmas day you might have it as well as the turkey but on another day on an ordinary evening would it be could you have that just as a main meal on its own absolutely yeah i, sprouts are now. So I just love cooking like that. It's the only way to cook, really. Seasonally, it's more economical.

It just makes sense. So sprouts are now. Get some shop bought or make your own pastry. And then it's easy to do, really. Yeah, I'd make that and have that with a big green salad, maybe. And the kids would eat it, too. I know that you, you know know there are obviously a lot of amazing women chefs and male chefs too who've been able to combine um having a young family

with those hours but they are pretty they're pretty brutal aren't they it's not very family friendly to actually be a chef working in a in a kitchen five nights a week six nights a week. Yeah I think it's age as well. You know, I've been a chef since my early 20s and in my 20s I had that sort of drive and energy to sort of want to stay up late and be working the hardest, the longest, the more doubles the better, you know. But now I've got children, I do essentially want to be able

to put them to bed at night. So I think that doesn't really dovetail too well when kids are the age I have them but it's never say never when they're older and they don't want to see me in the evening so much I might head back into a kitchen but you know I've been very lucky I've sort of I've sort of managed to sort of um maneuver this this sort of career path so I feel I feel really fortunate really now a lot of people um have been are cooking are about to be cooking an awful lot more over christmas tell us about your tips for meal plans that you share on instagram what is your your best

advice for busy parents or or anyone who just feels like cooking's become a bit endless well i mean it is an extraordinary year for home cookery isn't it so um my book is truncated into sort of weeknight meals budget cooking feasts celebrations and um what I call payday cooking you know when you're feeling a bit flush so uh I think that is essentially if you if you if you navigate cookery like that and you make sure that you're encompassing all those grounds then I think it's easy really so um you know your dinner on a Tuesday night is going to be very different to the sort of Saturday night just before Christmas when everyone's feeling excited. So I think essentially, I mean, I can't actually work with a meal plan myself.

I think food is too exciting for me. So I feel like I need the moment to take me. But I think as we go into Christmas, I think people just need to remember that it is essentially just a Sunday lunch. So let's not get worried. Let's not let's not let's not panic too much about that one. Yeah. And what about, you know, this this idea that, you know, at five o'clock every evening you are there, you know, in the kitchen making supper. That's something that that not everybody wants to do every night. But right now we have to. Well, quite. I mean, we all have to eat, don't we? So my Instagram feed is actually quite a great sort of a reflection of what we all do. So sometimes the kids will be home from school and starving and they want food in 20 minutes, you know, and other times I'll have a have the luxury of time and maybe more sort of interesting produce.

And so I think essentially food is is is we should take the sort, it shouldn't be daunting, I suppose, really. And I hope through my food writing and my work as a chef, I can encourage people to see a sort of easier framework for family food and life, I suppose. And how important is it to you? I know you've also worked with schools and children that aren't your own to try and persuade other children about the values of home cooking. How important do you think that is to actually sort of instill in children a love of food rather than them feeling that it's a bit of a chore? Absolutely. I mean, I've never, I've done a lot of cooking in schools and nurseries environments, and I've never experienced a child not wanting to eat the food that they've been engaged in the act of making. So that is paramount to me. And I feel like primary schools need to get more cooking in their classrooms and stuff.

In high school, my daughter's high school, they do. And that's brilliant. But yeah, I think children need to be excited about food and not made to feel like this humdrum thing that needs to be done, breakfast, lunch and supper. You know, we should be, food and growing food should be part of the curriculum. Well, Clare, thank you very much indeed for sharing that with us. Claire Thompson, thank you.

Well, now we are going to hopefully hear from Beth now. Beth is 24 and she has a complicated story. It's part of what we've had over the past few weeks. We've been talking to people about what it feels like to reach the age that your mum was when she died. Beth's story is one that's slightly different from the others. And when we first asked her for her reflections on this subject, she didn't think that she'd anything to say. My initial thought was, oh, that's not for me. I don't fit this criteria. I thought about it. I was like, oh wait, I actually do fit this criteria I could actually have something important to say

How old were you when your mum died? I was three, three years old And how old are you now? I'm 24 How old was your mum when she died? I don't know exactly. I've never thought to ask. But I know that she was late 20s, early 30s.

Why haven't you asked? I think there are other more important details that I would want to focus on. A lot of the time with grief, people like to focus on like the final bits, like the last bits of someone's life and the ending. I'm more interested in, well, what was she like? What kind of book did she like? What does she sound like? I'm more interested in knowing those things rather than rehashing a trauma that has already shaped so much of my life. Can you remember ever asking how old she was? I can't remember specifically.

I do remember I would ask, sometimes ask questions to my dad, but it would be so obvious immediately how upset they would make him that I just kind of stopped asking questions. I mean, he had so much trauma to work through which he never really did. And what happened to your mum? So my mum had bipolar disorder and she committed suicide. I haven't met anybody that has had a similar experience to me whereas with my dad I can talk to so many people everyone is happy to talk about cancer but talking about you know complex relationships and mental illnesses and trauma it's very hard to find people that I relate to when it comes to my mum it's a complicated thing to bring up with people because not everyone is not everyone can understand it I think it's a strange strange

way to lose a parent definitely your dad died last June so it's incredibly young to have lost yeah both parents but I mean there is no order to anything if I learn anything is that everything is just chaos you just have to be at peace with that and what's this you've got here this picture yeah so this is I've got two pictures here that one's her I don't know how old she is though but that's my my grandparents back garden in Bradford in Yorkshire and then that one is all of us at the zoo I think that's my mum that's my dad we're all blonde I was the the blondest I had like like hair like my mum's like white blonde hair like Nordic almost yeah and you're the middle one I'm the middle one yeah it can't have been that far before she died because because I was three Jessie was five Jasmine was 15 months

I have this photo next to my bed and so I'm kind of like desensitized to it but when I first started seeing pictures of my mum it was really hard like because we didn't have pictures of her in the house when we were growing up so first seeing pictures of her it was really almost distressing because I would be I'd be looking at this person trying to be like, where is the connection? Like, I need to have this connection. And almost kind of freaking out because I didn't really know this person. I couldn't really explain this connection.

I know that there is a connection between me and this photograph, especially the one with me in it. In so many ways, she's weirdly like a stranger. But also, she is half of me it all does make me sound a bit cold and a bit like distant but it is the honest truth but that's how it feels and that's how it feels and it's not like some movie where there is this tangible bond like it's hard I've got to work for it it's a an effort that I have to put in to remember to remember and to connect and to feel about it there was a time in my teenage years where I thought I want to be closer to her and I want to feel more like her what kind of music did she like I would ask my dad that question but what kind of music did you like and I'd go out and buy the cds and what was she into what kind of things

she'd like and then I'd like get into those kind of things and yeah just to try and be try and be what I was trying to be more like her, I guess. But I know that in many ways I am like her. I have people in my family that just kind of stare at me and go like, oh my God, you look so much like Amanda. It's so freaky. My grandma always tells this story of when I was learning how to write and I hold my pen this really weird way. And she said that her and my granddad couldn't believe it

because the only person they'd ever seen hold a pen like that was my mum. Did you feel alone going through it when you were younger? Yeah, because even with my sisters, we were all so close, but we were all going through an entirely different thing because we'd all had entirely different lives up until that point, and grief is quite an isolating thing. I think I was very aware of the fact that other people in primary school would be quite wary of me around talking about their mums and stuff.

I had one girl who refused to use the word mum, she said m-word. She said, oh, me and my m-word went to the shops this weekend and I was like well that actually hurts more because now I know that you're doing it for me and it's quite awkward and it made me stick out like a sore thumb and I hated it in a strange way my dad's death it was almost a relief how straightforward it was he was sick and then he got worse and then he was terminal then he died and I can put it into boxes I can make that make sense and other people can see that and make sense for them and you see adverts for cancer research on tv and all that and you know you hear about all the time but with mental health when it comes to the actual nitty-gritty

awful ugly sides of it it's not as widely talked about so people just generally don't know what to say and they never say anything out of fear of saying the wrong thing but I feel like even someone saying I don't know what to say means so much more to me than someone completely avoiding a subject. I think for a long time before I asked my dad how my mum had died, it felt like there was a big wedge between us because it was something that I knew he didn't want to talk about, but I needed to know. And it just felt like this big secret to the point where I was like I'd

imagine these like fantastical ideas of like what had actually happened or like oh maybe maybe she got kidnapped and there's like people just haven't found her yet one thing I used to think was maybe she has just moved on to another family and it's so heartbreaking that everyone would rather that she died so then maybe I'll just run into her on the street someday and I'll get to chat to her this one girl in secondary school I can't even remember how it came up but she was just like oh how did your mum die and I said well I don't know and then she was like well that's really weird what did you think when she said that I felt really embarrassed because I was like yeah why don't I know and I was like oh god this is is this something I'm going to be picked on for now like especially as a teenager you're like

I don't want to be different in any way it kind of was one of the driving reasons why I started talking to my dad about it and asked him and asked him because I just thought well people at school are asking me now so I might as well know so how did you eventually find out what had happened it was like quite late at night and I just kind of went downstairs and I was upset and I just I think I just came out and just said it. Why don't you talk about her? What happened? Yeah, that's when he sat down and explained everything to me. He didn't sugarcoat it, which I really appreciated. She was really unwell.

She had bipolar disorder. They tried everything. They tried so much to get her better. But ultimately, there comes a point where there sometimes there is just nothing more that you can do I think he was really trying to drill in the fact like this is nobody's fault like nobody could have stopped this and how much of a shock was that when he said those words to you a huge shock I had no idea not even an inkling like absolutely none did you ask him why he hadn't told you yeah I did I think I felt a bit of resentment of him like almost keeping it from us

but the truth was that pretty soon after my mum had died someone had given him some really terrible advice which was don't tell your daughters unless they ask and then obviously there was the whole air of we don't talk about it because it makes everyone upset so then we never asked so then he never told us and then he never talked about it so we never asked and then it just went on and on and on for a long time do you think you'll ever find out how old your mum was when she died maybe I might ask who you ask I might ask my sister but I also I might not I kind of quite enjoy not knowing it almost feels kind of like like a standpoint to not know to be like well

no I don't I don't want to know because then also I don't really have an age to look forward to or be scared of I don't know which one yet and is that something you're aware of I mean every time I have a birthday I'm proud of myself for just yeah it hasn't been the easiest of rides and I always get quite emotional my birthday because I'm just like well I've done. I'm another year older. Well, that was Beth's story and she was talking to reporter Jo Morris. Now, we've had a huge response to the item that we did on shyness on today's programme. And so many listeners have got in touch to say how impressed they were by Nadia Feiner, who came into the studio to talk to me. Maria, for example, says, what an impressive speaker on childhood shyness.

Something I suffered from for years during childhood and beyond. She was so articulate and clear in her information. Very impressive. And Mike says, what a brilliant interview. For a very shy person, your interview was perfectly presented in her specialist area. She's a fantastic example for any shy person who wants to stop being a smaller person. I speak as someone who, in his teens, often suffered from shyness attacks on the bus to school and would get off because a four mile walk in the rain was preferable to a 10 minute ride with a bus filled with other kids. A lot of people joining in to say just how informative and impressive Nadia was. It really was a pleasure to talk to her.

We also have had emails about our feature, about what it's like to be the same age as your mother when she died. Jo says that, I listened in awe of the young woman talking about the death of her mother. My son committed suicide leaving two young children. He was very ill,

but I ache for them and their adult selves. They do know that he took his own life, but do they understand it? Only time will tell. A huge thank you for sharing. It's a super tough time for everybody. And of course,

it wouldn't be an article on Brussels Sprites if we didn't have somebody leaping to their defence. Griselda says, On tomorrow's programme, last week the High Court ruled from their earliest youth, including my son, who won't touch salad or tomatoes. On tomorrow's programme, last week the High Court ruled that it was unlikely that children under 16 with gender dysphoria could give informed consent to taking puberty blockers. And we're going to hear from two mothers. One has a child who is desperate to take puberty blockers,

and the family support that. And the other is concerned that her child is vulnerable and not able to give consent. And Jane will also be talking to the potter, Kate Malone, on how she is on a mission to make that art more accessible to everyone. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.