Woman's Hour - Bridget Christie, Windrush Women, Helen and Rob in the Archers

Episode Date: June 19, 2023

Comedian Bridget Christie’s stand-up has been credited with putting the funny in feminism. You might know her from Taskmaster or Ghosts. Now she’s created and stars in a comedy drama called The Change, which starts this week on Channel 4. She plays Linda, a woman who turns 50, discovers she’s menopausal and abandons her family to go off and find herself in the Forest of Dean. Bridget joins Nuala in studio.On Thursday, the UK will celebrate the 75th anniversary of the arrival of the Empire Windrush which made the 5,000 mile journey from the Caribbean to England in 1948. The passengers were mainly made up of ex-servicemen along with over 200 bold, pioneering women. Veteran nurse and founder of the Windrush Cymru Elders, Roma Taylor, former nurse Allyson Williams and journalist Amina Taylor join Nuala to discuss their experiences of leaving home to help rebuild Britain after WWII.Even if you aren’t a fan of the Archers you're probably familiar with the Helen and Rob storyline that featured coercive control and domestic violence back in 2016. Rob, the perpetrator, eventually got his comeuppance and was banished to the US. Now nearly seven years later Rob has returned. Joining Nuala to talk about the latest twists and turns is the actor who plays Helen, Louiza Patikas.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Now maybe you listen to The Archers in addition to this programme on Radio 4. If so, or even if not, do stay with us because we'll have Louisa Paticus who plays Helen Archer on this hour. Was Rob Titchener, radio's greatest villain in the plot line about coercive control? It did grip listeners back in 2016, and many saw it as a defining moment for the drama with an unprecedented response to Helen's plight.

Well, we're going to hear from Louisa about how that character has evolved in the UK has been released by the Royal Mint. It pays tribute to the British Caribbean and Commonwealth citizens who arrived in the UK from 1948 to 1973. Well, today we want to hear your family stories about coming to the UK during that time. And to do that, you can get in touch with the programme texting 84844 or at BBC Women's Hour on social media or email us through our website. And if you'd like to leave a voice note or WhatsApp message, that number is 03700 100 444. We will hear the stories of two women recruited to come to the UK from the Caribbean to nurse for the NHS and also hear from a younger

woman who came in the 90s and she'll reflect on how her experience differed from her mother's. Also on Woman's Hour we'll discuss a proposed new obligation for the Crown Prosecution Service to meet with victims of rape to help them understand what going to court will involve. But let me begin first with comedian Bridget Christie. Her stand-up has been credited with putting the funny in feminism. You might also know her from Taskmaster or as Annie from Ghosts and now she's created and stars in a new comedy drama called Change. It starts this week on Channel 4 and And in it, Bridget plays Linda, a woman who turns 50, discovers she's menopausal and abandons her family to go off and find herself in the forest of Dean. And I'm delighted to say that Bridget joins me now in the Woman's Hour studio.

Good morning. Good morning. So this series is your baby, Bridget, right? You came up with this idea, you wrote it, you played the lead. Also, I believe it was, I suppose, a labour of love in some ways because it took quite a while. Why did you want to make it? Why did I want to make it?

Because I wanted to see myself on screen. And how does that feel? Oh, you know what I'm going to do on Wednesday night? I'm going to pretend that I didn't write it and it's not me and I'm going to really enjoy watching it. Well, I watched three episodes back to back last night, so I find it quite funny to see your face opposite me instead of on the screen, which I was watching very closely last night. Shall we listen to a little to give our listeners a flavour of it?

This is when Linda is visiting her GP in the very first episode. There's just a couple of niggly little things that I wanted to talk to you about. Well, I can only address one issue per appointment. I think you might have early onset dementia, osteoporosis, ringing in my ears when I'm stressed, anxiety, depression, cardiovascular disease, and a strange mental disorder involving loss of nouns. Well, that's quite a list. And you're 50 now. How are your moods? Fine. How are yours? Any irritability or rage?

Well, nothing unjustified. Well, this all sounds like the menopause to me, Linda. The menopause? So it was the one issue then. Well, just need to get on top of your symptoms and you'll be tip-top. Linda? The menopause. So it was the one issue then. Just need to get on top of your symptoms and you'll be tip top. I'll print out a fact sheet for you. How did I not know that? Some women find the shift in hormones liberating. My wife's taken up extreme climbing. She hangs off cliffs at weekends now. I used to love climbing. My guest, Bridget Christie, as Linda there in The Change.

So this is a big theme throughout the show, kind of kicks off with the menopause. But that wasn't how you were pitching the idea initially. No, because I wasn't in the menopause when I pitched the idea. I mean, as anyone who's written for TV or a film, it takes years and years and years. It was originally about puberty. No, but it was a long time ago.

And that central character, there were themes that have that are still in it. You know, that kind of reaching middle age and kind of losing sight of yourself and not really knowing where you're going or things perhaps haven't panned out as you'd hoped. So, yeah, there were themes that were there originally kind of six, seven years ago when that original script was commissioned but then lockdown happened so that informed the series as well loads of things have informed it over that period which actually I'm really glad because it wouldn't have been the show that it is now

so you know everything has been just perfect really I think the timing is really good I don't think I could have written it at any point in my life, really. Because you also started going through the menopause. Yeah, just before lockdown, yeah. And I didn't really know what they... Because they were different and some of the symptoms are really odd. And also, is it the result of the pandemic or is it the menopause?

Yes, exactly. Or is it too much coffee or, you know, you just there are whole different reasons. I think and you can jump to the wrong conclusions as well. If you don't if you don't know or you're not aware that it is the menopause, you think it's all these other things. So I did go to the doctor with this list of symptoms and he did say that that was the menopause. But then once you know, I think it takes a lot of fear away and you can start managing your menopause much better and that's the really key thing I think for women and young women to know what's coming so that they can then sort of plan for it and manage it much better. And maybe even look forward to it I love that

word liberating that you talk about and I feel, Linda, and I believe this is you too, has found freedom on a motorbike. I did. Well, I was a biker in my youth, you know, from sort of 16 to 23. And I, you know, I was in a little biker gang and I was in the motorcycle action group and I did all that.

And then I got to about 50 and I was like, oh, I'm going to, because life took over, you know, and I had kids and I moved up to London, so I didn't have anywhere to keep a bike um so I bought myself a triumph um for my 50th birthday that's not the bike that's in the show yes we had to get a different one for the show and actually I had to I had to um ride it in front of the art the stunt guy and I had to prove that I could ride the but otherwise it was too much of an insurance risk but yeah so I had to prove I had to have men watching me riding a motorbike um yeah so how's it been getting back on a bike well it's literally like the saying you know you just I

just got on I just got back on and it was fine I mean I hadn't ridden in 32 years and I went down to pick up my motorbike which is a it was it's a big triumph bobber so it's a 1200 cc and I was a little bit nervous but I was like no I'm not going to let fear stop me from doing things anymore which which I I had I'd realized that I had been doing that. I want to throw it out to our listeners actually just watching it I was wondering I wonder are there motorbike aficionados among our listeners I have a feeling there probably are 84844 if you find freedom on a motorbike do let Bridget

and myself know but you also go back further in the change you know flashbacks to being a child hiding a box in a tree

that is a central part of why Linda decided to leave the family the husband the chores the kids

all behind and the chores is the kids all behind. And the chores is a big part of it as well. At first I was like, what is she doing? But you have a chore register in the change. You are writing down how many minutes and hours are spent giving over to other people, really. Yeah, well, she wasn't going to cash in the time back, Linda. She just started keeping a ledger a long, long time ago. So she changed the sheets?

Yeah, well, everything, like dusting the lampshades. Every single thing, which do get dusty, I'm afraid to say. So she just started writing it down because it was interesting to her that nobody was seeing her doing this stuff and she wasn't getting anything from it. So she started these ledgers that go back sort of 20 years and then she decides to just take some of that time back so she's not really leaving she's just having a few weeks to herself um yeah so that's what she does but that is that is that was a really strong that it's an interesting subject for me like whose

time is more valuable and why isn't the distribution of labour more equal in our homes up and down the country? Why do you think? I just, look, if I knew that, I don't know. I think maybe we just get on with it because it's sometimes easier or I don't know. But I think it's quite a simple thing to try and sort out. Yeah, it's interesting some of the scenes when Linda has left and what does happen when she doesn't take care of business. That's all I'll say. I'll get people to tune in to see it.

Lisa Tarbuck. Well, I mean, what a powerhouse. She's your oldest big sis as it comes up. That was a wonderful character, along with Manny Moore. Not based on... I bet that was my next question. No, this is the thing. When women write things, people say, oh, they're all based on...

None of the characters are based on any real people, but they're based on relationships that I hear. My friends have relationships or whoever has... But Linda's relationship with Siobhan is not based on any reality at all. Why does it seem so relatable? Because I, Lisa's a friend, because we know each other maybe, but lots of people have said that. But I mean that character of Siobhan.

The character, because she is a real character. I mean, I know people like that. They're just not my sisters. So, yeah, people have responded to that relationship between those two. But she's just fantastic. I also, let's turn to Linda. So she has a husband, Steve. She has two kids.

He's struggling, as I mentioned, to look after himself after she goes. But she also makes a decision, Linda, to not be classified as a wife and a mother when she goes off for some time by herself. It's a journey of self-discovery. I mean, this is a really important point to make, actually, is that she's not leaving. She loves her husband and she loves her kids

and she's just having a little bit of time out. If she goes somewhere and she is known as a wife then there's a whole different set of questions there she needs to go and find out who she is and it's much easier for her to do that if she's just linda yeah she's just a person if she's not got all these different things that she has to explain and then you know why is she gone what are they doing so that was that was what i really wanted to explore. It is a love story, but it's a story about self-love. So it isn't about a breakup, but it isn't about a relationship. It isn't about her going off and meeting somebody.

It isn't. It's a story about a person. We don't often see middle-aged women having adventures like that, where it's just about them and their relationship with themselves. And that's what I wanted to see, actually. Yes, and I was wanted to see, actually. Yes. And I was trying to think as well, I know in it you talk about the Hulk,

like the big green Hulk, being the only menopausal figure on TV. The role model. Yeah, let's just have one. Can we just have one? Then it'll be there's too many. Then there'll be two or three and that'll be just, we're done with the menopause now

for another hundred years. Well, it looks like a very cool depiction shall i say of this woman that goes out and is surrounded by other women there are at least five of the main cast members who are women over 50 but this is the thing all the really brilliant cool fantastic women people that i know who are achieving they're all women over 50, but where are they? Like the depiction and the idea of the menopausal woman, what is that? I think that there's an idea of what it is based on. I don't know what it's not based on any of my reality and not the reality of many, many women that I know, but let's just see more of us doing this stuff and living our lives. So you also have as the backdrop, the Forest of Dean, which is beautiful.

There is, I think, that real feeling of Americana in it as well. There is a very good reason for that, and that's because as a child, when I used to go to the Forest of Dean in the 70s, the guys would wear like Czech shirts and maybe someone would have a cowboy hat on or some cowboy boots, and there was always a guy who had like an American truck.

So in my tiny child mind in seven or eight, when I went to the forest, which was this magical place to me, I also felt like I was going somewhere else because I would watch a lot of films with my dad when I was little, westerns and things like that, and American films, and I would think it would just feel like this different place with the huge pine trees and there's redwoods there

in the Forest of Dean as well. And it just felt like this. It felt like that place. So what I'm trying to do with this show is have that sense of nostalgia about it as well. That's why it looks a certain way. We shot it with certain lenses. Yeah.

It has a very cinematic feel to it because that's how I see the Forest of Dean in that cinematic way. Let me, so you've all this going on, but you're also kicking off a tour at the Edinburgh Festival in August. Yeah. Menopause also going to make an appearance.

Yes, absolutely. The show's got menopause, bit of politics in there, bit of observational stuff, a bit of life. Yeah. So Edinburgh and then the tour. Yes, I'm really looking forward to that. I'm really I'm really I love stand up. It's my first love. So I'm going to keep that going. It's great to have this TV show, but stand up is I'm just going to keep that going as well. Yeah, they inform each other. It's very funny, the change.

The change starts on Channel 4 this Wednesday, the 21st of June at 10pm. The tour, Bridget Christie, Who Am I? will be starting at the Edinburgh Fringe and then coming to a theatre near you over the autumn. Bridget, thanks so much. Thank you so much for having me. You are listening to Woman's Vow

or 84844 if you want to get in touch with your stories about your family and the Windrush. We're going to be speaking about that in just a short while so do get in touch if you'd like to share about your family but next i want to turn to rape victims they are to be given the opportunity to meet face to face with prosecution teams involved in their case to discuss concerns about the criminal justice system ahead of trial now the measures are aimed at reducing the number of complainants who withdraw from the process over fears about giving evidence.

The idea is that the Crown Prosecution Service, the CPS staff, will offer to meet adult victims in person in the event that an alleged attacker enters a not guilty plea in court. Now, this obligation will be cemented in an updated victims code, the principles of which will be put on a statutory footing through the Victims and Prisoners Bill, which begins its next stage through Parliament today. Clare Waxman is London's Victims Commissioner and joins me now. Welcome. What do you make of this move? Well, it's not a new move. There's no news here for me today.

CPS are meant to already meet rape victims before court. They're meant to meet them and really discuss special measures with them, which is what they will need in order to give good evidence and to talk about whether they want to visit the court before trial and also discuss just how the day will go when they go and give evidence. So that's already an obligation on the CPS. They don't deliver on that obligation. So I suppose the welcome move maybe today is the fact that it's going to be

put onto the face of the victim's code. So I think that's the only sort of new news that we're talking about. I suppose it would be why hasn't it been delivered on? I suppose that's a question really for CPS and that's really I assume for many of the conversations I've had with them that it's the lack of resources also the CPS prosecutors have been often shying away from meeting with victims you know I deal with victims in London all the time especially especially rape victims, and they really struggle to access those meetings. And we often have to push on their behalf to make sure that they happen. So I think it's a case of CPS maybe not having enough

resources or the CPS prosecutors really not having the right skills as well and confidence to meet with rape victims. So if this is going into the Victim's Code of Practice, the CPS will really need to address that. And just a point to make about the Victims Code of Practice, so all your listeners are aware, we've had a Code of Practice in since 2006. And statutory partners like the police and the CPS are meant to deliver certain entitlements to victims, such as rape victims. However, compliance with the code is low. So unfortunately, the code has been toothless and not working on behalf of victims. That's why this week from tomorrow, we've got the Victims and Prisoners Bill coming into the committee stage. And that piece of legislation

offers us really a great opportunity to try and strengthen victims' rights. The current government bill, unfortunately, does not go far enough. It doesn't give these rights any legal enforceability. great opportunity to try and strengthen victims rights. The current government bill unfortunately does not go far enough. It doesn't give these rights any legal enforceability. So I and many others will be working with government and cross party to try and strengthen this piece of legislation so that commitments like today that are being made are actually going to be delivered. Otherwise, I fear it will just be another unfulfilled commitment for rape victims and another victim. Well, there's a couple of things there. One about delivering the obligation if delivered otherwise i fear it'll just be another unfulfilled commitment for rape victims and another victim well there's a couple of things there one about delivering the obligation if it's a lack

of resources and i don't have the cps to respond at this moment but if if it is is there any more money coming in to help deliver that obligation uh would be a question um and then i can answer that go ahead you know, the funding that's attached to this bill currently, there's nothing in the way of actually improving CPS response to victims or other agencies, there's no money put into training, to ensure that the agencies are trained to understand the different elements within the victim's code of practice, and are able to then comply better with the code. So so that's an issue that will need to be tackled if the government actually want to fulfil this commitment.

And with this strengthening of the bill that you talk about, what exactly, what are the concrete aspects of that that makes it then easier to proceed? So at the moment, there isn't a concrete aspect to this bill, just to tell you that the bill actually lacks in any enforceability. So at the moment, there isn't a concrete aspect to this bill, just to tell you that the bill actually lacks in any enforceability. So at the moment, there's just a duty on CPS and others to inform victims of their rights under the code. So they will need to do that as part of this new legislation. But there isn't anything on those partners such as police and CPS and probation to actually deliver those rights. So what we are looking at

is some sort of enforceability mechanism to really strengthen it so that if those agencies do not comply with their duties, do not deliver those key entitlements that victims need in order to access justice and support, that there is something that happens as a result. And at the moment, nothing happens as a result. And also a critical factor is the type of support that's available to victims and especially rape victims. If CPS are going to actually deliver on these meetings and meet with victims, it's really important that we have the right support with victims in that meeting to ensure that victims understand the process. It's why we've been pushing for many years for something called a victim care hub

that really will support victims going through the criminal justice system and will work as part of a team with the police and the CPS. But they'll be there on behalf of the victims to make sure that they have everything they need. Because, I mean, reading particularly Alex Chalk, the Justice Secretary, and Max Hill Casey,

the Director of Public Prosecutions, some of the things they were talking about would seem to echo what you're saying, Clare. I mean, they were endorsing the idea, Alex Chalk saying it would lead to more attackers being behind bars, and Max Hill said it would give victims more confidence and support in the criminal justice system

that they're about to go through. I'm just wondering how it differs from what they're planning on doing. So if they did fulfil it and CPS actually did deliver this commitment and meet with rape victims before going to court, it absolutely will be beneficial because many of the rape victims we speak to are unclear and feel very overwhelmed and it's a daunting experience what's actually going to happen in court. So they do need that pre-meet for the prosecution to go through and explain it to them, make sure that they've got the right special measures,

whether it be giving evidence, video evidence, or that there's a screen, etc., so that they can give good evidence. But what we also need within that meeting that is missing from this commitment today and this announcement is that victims need their own support in that meeting. It's quite daunting to meet a prosecutor as well. So you want to go in with your own support, sitting next to you, who is listening as well and taking in the information so that the victim can process it. So that's also a really critical part of these meetings, having the right support embedded for rape victims through the process. And that's unfortunately missing. And just before I let you go, Clare, this is all being spoken about and discussed because

of the numbers of people that drop out of prosecuting a case of rape against them. What are the numbers now? So the national number for 2022, and this is national, is 41% of rape victims withdrew their support for action during the criminal justice process. We know there are a number of factors that push rape victims out of the process. The fact that they are often required to disclose their therapy notes, their personal counselling records to police and CPS, and that might then be disclosed to defence. That risk of disclosure is enough to really act as a deterrent and push so many rape victims. So whilst this is welcome with CPS meeting victims, we really do need government to tackle this issue of therapy notes because most rape victims I speak to once they know their therapy notes are going to be looked at really are put in a very difficult

position do they go for justice and no recovery and no therapy or do they prioritize their therapy and recovery and let justice go so they're put in a terrible situation at the moment. We'll talk a little bit more about that tomorrow on Woman's Hour with Clare Waxman thank you so much for coming on at Victims Commissioner in London. Some of you getting in touch about motorbikes. Let me see. My name is Gail. I passed my bike test last year when my daughter left home.

So I decided to sit the test. I'm in my mid-50s and ride a 700cc Yamaha, which I love. I intend to ride to London this summer. It's never too late. Thanks, Gail, for getting in touch. 84844. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning

everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now. Now, on Thursday, the UK will celebrate the 75th anniversary of the arrival of the Empire Windrush,

which made the 5,000 mile journey from the Caribbean to Tilbury Docks in June 1948. There were hundreds of passengers that were made up of mainly ex-servicemen, but there were along with over 200 bold pioneering women who left everything behind to better their own and their families' lives. The passengers came to help rebuild the country after World War II. In 1955, the government had started campaigning to recruit nurses from across the Caribbean to help with the then-Ailing Health Service.

Former nurse Alison Williams and also veteran nurse and founder of the Windrush, Cymru Elders, Aroma Taylor, and also journalist Amina Taylor, no relation, all join me now to discuss their experiences of leaving home and coming to the UK. You're also welcome to Woman's Hour. Let me begin with you, Alison. What was it like when you initially answered that call to come to the UK?

Good morning and thank you very much for having me. you initially answered that call to come to the UK? Good morning and thank you very much for having me. It was very exciting because I had made the decision that that's what I wanted to do in life. I wanted to train as a nurse and a midwife, to be like my mother, who had the most amazing experiences and stories in Trinidad, where I'm from. And so I was told that I had to go through the process through the Ministry of Health because the British government were there and they were inviting us to come and train

and help rebuild the motherland. So I felt very special, really, very proud. Yes. And I thought, you know, we would be welcome with open arms and it was the beginning of a good future. And what was the reality like? The reality was quite different, very different. The personnel and the authorities at the hospital were lovely. And I also met quite a lot of West Indians and fellow Trinidadians,

because our ministry recommended that I go to the hospital that I did, because that was what they were well known for. And so that bit was really lovely. And the way we were, you know, settled and looked after by the staff in the hospital were good. But my nightmare started when I actually went out on the wards for six months in the classroom when I suffered a lot of racism that was quite new to me because we had so many different types of people, all different colors and races and religions in Trinidad, and I never experienced any such behavior. And there was even physical abuse because my hands were slapped away countless times.

By patients? By patients to say that I was dirty. They didn't want my black dirt to rub off on them. And they made very derogatory remarks about, you know, living in trees and how high and, you know, do we swing on vines or build ladders? How did you cope, you know, with that abuse? Yes, it was actually more frightening because it was not what I was used to. And I felt at the time that I really wasn't learning anything. You were so on edge and tense when you had to go on the wards

that, you know, it just seemed counterproductive being there. And so after about six months, I rang my mother and I said, Right, I'm coming home, Mum. I can't stand these people. And they're so rude and they're so ignorant. They don't even know where Trinidad is, never mind, you know, what we live like. And she said, you know, what are you coming home to do? Wallow in your self-pity and, you know, find a way to deal with it. You know, racism, everybody else's problem. It's not yours.

Let them deal with their own fears. But you find some way to deal with it because that was your vision. That was your passion. That's what you wanted to do in life. And you say that now with a smile and a laugh. aha moment on the wards sometime after that. And I just stood up and screamed, I think, if I remember, you know, in fear and anger and, you know, anxiousness. And I said to everybody, I sort of walked up and down the wards to say, I am 21. And I know I was born black. I know I am black. I will always be black. So tell me, does anybody have anything new to say? Tell me something I don't know. And you could hear a pin drop. I'm usually very quiet and docile and they didn't expect to hear that from me.

And so what it did was to make a huge difference to me and to make me feel proud of being black and respect my blackness and not be frightened to be called black. And it gave me a lot of self-respect and the ability to just get on with my work. And so when I heard it all through my 40 years in the NHS, but I just would wave it away. It never had the same effect from that point on. So it made a huge difference. How extraordinary.

How extraordinary, Alison. I want to hear Roma as well, your first memories of coming to the UK and perhaps also, you know, when you hear Alison's story what's going through your mind? Good morning. Good morning. I came to Cardiff when I was't have any racism at all because Tiger Bay was a multicultural community. There was all different ethnic minorities there. So we never had racism in Tiger Bay.

Tiger Bay was a beautiful place. We all love it. We love each other. It was a loving community. And you could leave your doors wide open and go into town and do your shopping and come back. And your house is still the same. The people were so friendly. Everybody loved each other. So I didn't see racism in Tiger Bay at all.

I was 15. You were 15 and I'm glad your experience was kinder and more compassionate than Alison's was. You did decide to join the army. I did. What was behind that? I used to take my two daughters to ballet and dancing and one day this lady came in and she had a uniform on and I said what's that? Where do you go to get that uniform and she said the army i said oh my gosh i said wow can i come and she said yes so i went up on the wednesday night and i filled a few forms in and they took all my particulars and then i was um private greens i was private green at the time. And it was wonderful. I've been in for 25 years

and I loved it. We did all sorts of, well, I was a nurse and then I went into the QARANC, Queen Alexandra Royal Army Nursing Corps. And we did lots of activities in the army it was so fabulous i wish i was still there now but too old now but you are telling us about your memories and i want to hear yours and also from my other guests i mean what do you think the windrush generation brought to the UK and perhaps Wales in particular? Well, they came and they brought everything. Everything that they brought was love. They brought their love. They came with blood, sweat and tears. They did everything.

They worked everywhere and did everything that they were told to do. They worked in the NHS. They worked on the buses. They were in the army, air force. And they did everything that they were supposed to do. They done it and it was a job well done because they came with nothing. They sold their land, their properties, and came over with one little suitcase that you call the grip.

The grip? Yes, the little suitcase that they brought over. It's called a grip. And they brought that with them and they worked hard and did what they're supposed to do It's, you know, those themes really of

responsibility and commitment and loyalty and work I need to turn to Amina who's also here and who is younger than Alison and Roma. I don't know, what must it be like for you to hear those stories? I mean, it's clear, just listening to Alison's testimony here and listening to what Roma had to say. People like myself stand on the shoulders of giants. I mean, my mom came here because her aunt came right after, in around 1952. So a crucial part of that post-war reconstruction era for the United Kingdom where she worked on the buses.

She was a bus conductress doing the Route 12 when they still had the change bucket. Her husband, Keith, worked as a driver in the NHS. And there were so many of these other stories that I never had to live. And when my mom joined them in the early 60s, again, it was a difference in attitude because they were being impacted by civil rights, by a different sense of self. So by the time I came along in Jamaica in 1977, where my mom had returned and had me there, when I came here at 15, the landscape was different. But what breaks my heart now is voices that we may not be hearing today with experiences that mirror both of the women we're listening to. We have an administration that isn't acknowledging that

in a way that I think would be doing it justice and would be given the necessary acknowledgement that there were people here, including my aunt, my great aunt, who wanted to return home. That was always the dream, that she would build this home, she would work the buses, do her savings, and then return to the bosom of her family. She died of a stroke barely days after her retirement. So all the hard work, the blood, sweat and tears, and never got an opportunity to

enjoy that, all the sacrifice without any of the rewards. And that's heartbreaking for me. And of course, we've discussed the Windrush scandal. And we'll talk about it more again tomorrow. I will say with some of the political aspects as well. There is a story today talking about the Windrush office that plans to disband it within the Home Office. And that is shocking. That is absolutely shocking. I know we don't want to get too political here, but we're dealing with an administration, I beg your pardon, that's rolling back even basic accommodations that were made in the face of when the scandal was unearthed in 2018. So if you have an institution that's not

being supportive of making these quote unquote reparations, I mean, my son is at a beautiful school where I think because the head is a head teacher of color, is making the whole of June a celebration. We don't get enough of that. When I speak to other mothers about, oh, you know, what are you guys doing? Are you having a speaker in? Is there anything that's being done to celebrate and acknowledge the period? Oh, we covered it in Black History Month last year. It's like, oh, OK, thanks for that. And so you just feel it doesn't get the attention, the priority that it should.

I know the government did say that they feel they are still moving ahead with work that has been done. I don't have them here to respond to it, but I know that was one of the comments in the article today and I will indeed delve into it more deeply tomorrow. But I'm wondering,

because I'm reading that at one point, on the other, I'm seeing that there is a new 50p coin that's out today that is a commemorative coin, that it was a new 50p coin that's out today that is a commemorative coin, that it was a black artist that worked on it. Does something like that make any difference? There are steps in the right direction.

Listen, I'm not here to completely bemoan the situation. What I'm saying is, this is great for the 75th anniversary. This is wonderful to mark a particular time in history, but where do we go from there? What assurances are we being given that this will be a part of our collective history? Windrush history isn't just black history.

It's Britain's history. And whilst we perhaps have an opportunity to talk about what's gone wrong, can we help to celebrate the other things that have gone so right? And to ensure that when we speak of the Windrush, it's in all its glory, the good, the bad and the ugly. Do you feel, Alison, that people understand what you have given to the country? No, not at all. I mean, I do quite a lot since my retirement, I do quite a lot of speaking and talking.

But as my colleague said, it's only around Black History Month and nobody understands. I think it's very, very bad. And I agree that, you know, the teaching of the legacy of the Windrush generation should be standard education in schools and not just a topic to pick up in Black History Month. I think that's quite scandalous. I mean, and I didn't even appreciate it wasn't happening like that because even being part of the Windrush generation, when I trained and qualified as a midwife, the personnel department in my hospital were very good and collected passports and got our status properly verified.

And so we had an indefinite leave to remain in England with just very few stipulations. And I assume that that is what happened to all of us in the Windrush generation. I was truly scandalised to hear that it was such a huge problem and that, you know, this situation ever arose. I think that's really quite unacceptable. And just to also, thank you, Alison, to give the specifics of the Home Office, what they said, the spokesperson says the department wouldn't comment on the leaks about closing down its office,

but that there have been and will continue to be team changes as the Windrush response is delivered. It says the government is honouring its Windrush commitments and providing support to those affected every day. Over £72 million compensation has been paid or offered already

and the scheme will stay open as long as needed. But as I mentioned, we'll talk more about that tomorrow. But thank you for your thoughts on it. I want to turn back to you, Roma, because you started the Windrush Cymru Elders. Why? Windrush Cymru Elders. And why did you start that group?

Why did you think it was necessary? Because when we, here in Wales, we, a lot of us, a lot of black people that came over, we were living in Tiger Bay and the council decided to move us out. And they separated us and put us all over Cardiff. So we don't see each other until we have weddings, christenings and funerals. So when you see each other, it's hi, and then after the functions, it's bye. So we don't see, well, some of us, some of them don't see anyone at all for another, you know, another celebration. So I asked the Lord to bless me so I could look after the elders because they needed befriending.

They needed someone to even ask, can I go shopping for you? Can I take you to the park for a walk? They never had anyone to do that. So in 2018, I went to a meeting with Race Council Cymru and I met Judge Ray Singh, CBE, and Professor Uzo Iwobi. And I asked if they could help me to look after the elders. And I showed them what I'd written and, you know, what I wanted to do.

And they said, yes, we will help you. And from that day, the Windrush Cymru elders started. And Race Council of Cymru has been marvelous. And so has Jane Hutt MS. And the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama. They've given us a place forever because we didn't have a place. And the barracks where I used to train as a nurse, as a soldier. They looked after us as well.

We go there sometimes and we have games and it's wonderful. So the elders, sorry. No, no, I was just going to mention to our listeners that I can see when you mention the barracks and the army that your face lights up again with a smile as you remember that time. But I understand what you're doing there and really that you feel these people need a place to go and talk and have that community again. After, of course, living here for so many years, but needing to find, I suppose, what you found when you first came to the UK. Would you ever go back home, Roma? Is that something you ever go back home roma is that something you ever consider no my mum did my

mum wanted to go back home but she passed sadly but um well i wanted to go back but when i think about my my family my seven children my 25 grandchildren and my 19 great-grands and twins on the way. Oh, twins on the way. Yeah, 19 and twins on the way. I just couldn't, I couldn't face going back and leaving my family here. Yeah. All I'd go back for is the water because I love the water very much and I love the boats very much.

But my family is there and I love them very much. So I couldn't, I wouldn't be happy going back home. I'm happy staying here with my family. I'm listening to your accent as well, Roma, which I love, which is a Caribbean lilt, but also with a little Welsh twang there as well, which is just delightful. Alison, what about you? Do you ever think about going home? Oh, I have thought of it quite a lot. But for the same reasons as Roma, once you qualify and then you acquire a husband and then you have wonderful children, you have to find a way of settling and raising them as best as you can. And I loved my profession here quite a lot. And so I was getting very, very involved in midwifery and the hospital I was at was like about out of the arc. So we had quite a lot of work to do to develop midwifery and the services for women. So I decided I would stay here. But one good thing I did, I married a fellow Trinidadian. So we had the same values,

the same way of thinking. And we took our children home very, very regularly, all the time. So they're very much steeped in the lifestyle, the culture, and all the rest of the family who were there. So the feet in two worlds. Yes. Which you are, Amina, as well, before I let you go. I mean, I know you're here a shorter amount of time, but do you ever feel the pull? Oh, the pull is strong. But the concept of home is really something that needs to be kind of dissected. Yes, and when I said the word, I was like, is that the correct word?

Because we do feel as if we belong in both sectors. When I go to Jamaica, immediately I want to come back to London. And when I'm in London, I'm like, oh, Jamaica today would be brilliant. And I think we're allowed to do that. We're allowed to love both places and work for the betterment, for the greater good of both of these entities. And I just hope that that can be supported and empowered here. And I do very much want to stress that, that you can have more than one home.

So wonderful to have all of you on alison amina and roma thank you so much for sharing your stories if listeners want to get in touch 84844 somebody getting in touch here saying from the bottom of my heart many thanks to the windrush heroines and heroes who have developed our nation my grandfather worked in post-war public health administration and taught his grandchildren that the NHS was planned around health professionals from the colonies and the Commonwealth. He was disgusted and devastated at the racism shown towards them until the day he died.

Shame on all of us and shame on this government for brushing the Windrush generation aside. Thank you all again. Tomorrow we will, as I mentioned, reflect on the difficulties currently facing the Windrush generation, including people still waiting for compensation, following being wrongly identified as illegal immigrants. Now, on Woman's Hour, I want to move on to the Archers. Now, even if you aren't a fan of the Radio 4 long running soap, you might well be familiar with the Helen and Rob storyline that reached its crescendo in 2016.

That was when Helen Archer stabbed her husband, Rob Titchener, after enduring years of coercive control and rape. She stood trial for attempted murder and gave birth to their son, Jack, in prison before being acquitted. Rob eventually got his comeuppance

and was banished to the US. But now, seven years later, he is back. And with his return, there's been a steady build-up of tension. Let's listen to the moment in last Friday's episode, where Helen decides to meet Rob face-to-face. Can I speak now? Yes, go on. All right.

No, no, wait! Have you any idea how hard it's been putting myself back together? Putting Henry back together. Trying to be a functioning mum for him and Jack. But I've done it. So whatever game you thought you were going to play, just give it up. You haven't even wanted to see Jack up until a few weeks ago. I'm not going to let you turn his life upside down. Okay, you can talk. Thank you. I don't

want to turn anyone's life upside down. The reason I haven't tried to see Jack before is because I knew you didn't want me to. And I still don't. I realise that and I understand why. Well, in that case... But please, Helen. There's no problem. If you just listen, I let you speak. Hear me out. Even though I didn't try,

there hasn't been a day when I haven't thought about you and the boys. It's always there. The knowledge that I threw away the best thing I ever had. Honestly, Helen, you say you've had to rebuild yourself. Well, I've done a lot of work on myself too, these last six years in North Dakota,

living on my own. Nothing else to reflect upon except how much I hurt you. I know, I know. You've changed. That's what your brother wanted me to believe as well. I don't expect you to believe me. All I can do is be as open and honest as I can. Well, with me to talk about the latest twists and turns of the Rob and Helen saga is Louisa Paticus,

the actor who has played Helen since 2000. So good to have you on Woman's Hour. It's so wonderful to be with you. Thank you. So up to 20,000 episodes of The Archers and it's been marked by bringing Rob back as I mentioned what's it been like for you returning to this story? Well obviously very rewarding as an actor but you know The Archers has this very unique ability to portray long lasting storylines. In this case, the impact of abuse on survivors and their community.

So I guess now it looks like we're exploring the effect that the abuser can still have without being physically present. An exploration of post separation abuse, if you like. I just think that clip and the larger conversation around it is gripping for a lot of reasons. He's sounding plausible, maybe. Do you think Helen is falling for it? Plausible, I agree. He does sound incredibly plausible that men like Rob operate like that. They perpetrate this kind of abuse precisely because they are so plausible and manipulative and charming.

So is Helen going to fall for it? Let's see. I think she's changed, but how much is the question, I guess. I think also you alluded to it there it really does illustrate the impact not just on that survivor but her larger community. Yes I mean her family went through the wringer with her you know coercive control operates in the shadows it only works if people don't know it's happening so not only was Helen not aware of this for a long time took her a long time to realize what was happening same happened to her brother and her parents and her friends you know those it spread those tendrils spread out into the community so everybody is in shock still and everybody has

an element of PTSD. Did you know that Rob was going to make a reappearance? I didn't know, but, you know, they'd be mad not to. I mean, not only because it's great drama, but also because it really, it did, you know, bring domestic abuse into the national spotlight. And I think there's so much more to explore. I hoped he would come back and I'm glad he has. Yes, and for people

who weren't following it at that stage or perhaps weren't living in the UK because I think anybody who was would have known there was this huge national conversation about a subject

that wasn't normally spoken about. Politicians praised it. Baroness Hale, the former president of the Supreme Court, said it showed the public how coercive control works. And it came at a time when the law had just been changed to better recognise that type of abuse.

What was it like being in the middle of all that at the time? Well, it was extraordinary. It became something bigger than it had set out. Well, it just everything gathered at once, is what I'm going to say. And actually, the storyline started two years before the change in legislation in 2015. So we were ahead of the curve. Sean O'Connor, the then editor, had sort of started it off. It was a long run at it. So by the time the law changed in 2015, we were right in the middle of it.

And so it became a huge deal in the press, as you say, and I felt very lucky to be a part of it. There is, I know, back in 2016, you had spoken to women who had been in Helen's position. What about for this part of Helen's journey? How did you research? Did you do something similar? So, I mean, I can still draw on all the research I did at the time and the meeting of survivors. I've talked quite a lot about the impact it has on central nervous system of survivors of domestic abuse and how that carries on many years down the line, still feeling that effect. But I was also reading recently about a fantastic pilot scheme, I think in England and Wales, where they're trialing allowing journalists

into the family courts for the very first time, you know, which will hopefully let the light in and accelerate greater awareness of domestic abuse and coercive control. And I think that's quite interesting, the idea of litigation being a weapon and the courtroom being yet another arena in which perpetrators of abuse can control their ex-partners partners and I think that's something I've been

reading up on I'm not quite sure if we're going to go there but I've been reading into that a lot and I'm wondering as well because we're talking about the past seven years this is a character that you played at times it's distressing when we listen back to some of those parts and also this latest iteration. And when you're in this sort of role, does it change how you feel day to day, going through life? No, it doesn't.

It's my job and I care very much about it. But once I've walked out of the studio, I mean, sometimes it can be much more wrangling and upsetting than other times. But we're actors. I think meeting survivors of coercive control and domestic abuse, that did have an effect for a while. I was definitely shaken by that. And I care very much about them. But in terms of, you know, I walk out of studio and I'm back to me. How do you do that? I'm not sure. I think I just, it's an actor's tool.

I mean, maybe some people wouldn't be able to, but I am able to. And, you know, obviously the 2016 episode when Helen stabs Rob, we were all quite shaken for a while after that one and I'm often quite shaken straight after reading the, I mean the team of writers on The Archers are so incredible and I often just reading those scripts I feel quite shaken too but I don't carry the baggage

around with me. How much in advance do you get them? About a month. Okay. Yeah. A few weeks before. So you're not that far ahead of us? No, no. With this, there is one aspect which Helen has had a child, Jack, actually through rape.

But that child is now, potentially it is, that Rob would like to have custody of that child in some way. That really must be an incredibly rich area to explore. Like I say, I mentioned the

litigation side of things earlier in the family court so that will be a very rich area to mine. But there are often no happy endings when survivors finally escape their abuser, especially when children are involved, like you say. We had Jack with him. I'm bound to him in a way that the law can't really do anything about. Coming back to Helen, just briefly, she doesn't seem to have gone for any therapy throughout any of this time.

No, she doesn't. And they've been through a lot, that family. So much. Look, I think her coping mechanisms and her instincts are to fill her time and attention with other things. So she's very ambitious for her business. She is a great mum. And I think, you know, they're a family of farmers. They're used to things happening on a daily basis, crises that they have to solve instantly. They do. They get on and do.

But I really do think they could do with a little bit of therapy. All of them. Yes, that's interesting, isn't it? Let's see where it goes. So interesting. Fabulous work.

Thank you so much for joining us, Louise Paticus. And if you want to catch up on that storyline, there's a special podcast available now on BBC Sounds called The Archers, When Helen met Rob

the story so far thanks for all your messages that have been coming in one from Sharon wonderful interview with the two elders from the Windrush generation my parents came here

in the early 60s but returned to the Caribbean Barbados after 10 years dad trained to be a civil engineer mum was a midwife sadly they both

have ill health now but as kids we listen so often to their stories and experiences in amazement, some so awfully terrible and down to racism that you can't imagine, and others fun and frolic when discussing the good times with friends they did make

and with families. Do join me again tomorrow where we'll be talking to Nalette Tucker from our powerless women in sport. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. At first, he seemed perfect. Excuse me, do you need any help?

Charming, thoughtful. He made me feel as though I was the only person in the world. I've missed you so much. But slowly, without me even noticing, things changed. Please don't be angry with me. And I started to disappear. I don't recognise myself. Until...

I had to make him stop! So what does he want from me now? The Archers, from BBC Radio 4. Subscribe now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.