Woman's Hour - Bridget Phillipson MP, Catherine Newman, Chanel Contos, Rachel Thompson, Karen Krizanovich, Baroness Altmann

Episode Date: January 25, 2023

The conservatives and Labour party appear to be agreed on one issue on the political agenda – that is childcare. Both parties realise it will be a key battleground in the general election with polling suggesting it is of particular concern in some of the red wall seat which the conservatives need to hold onto if they are to stay in government. The UK’s childcare system is one of the most expensive in the world and ranked one of the least effective according to a recent report by UNICEF. Shadow Education Secretary Bridget Phillipson joins Nuala McGovern in the studio to discuss her party’s plans for reform which she says will compare with Aneurin Bevan’s creation of the National Health Service.What is the role of a best friend at a deathbed? ‘We All Want Impossible Things’ a new novel by Catherine Newman is funny and rude as well as very sad and it’s a celebration of all sorts of love. Ash's best friend is dying and her heart is breaking but life does go on, until it stops. Catherine Newman joins Nuala to explain what inspired the bookWhen she was 19, Chanel Contos was playing a drinking game with friends. Someone asked ‘what’s the kinkiest thing you like to do during sex? Her 17-year-old friend replied, ‘It’s not really that kinky, but I guess choking.’ Now 24, and listed as one of the BBC’s 100 Women, Chanel wants to challenge the normalisation of sexual choking (and other acts such as spitting or slapping). She’s joined on the programme by writer Rachel Thompson, author of Rough: How Violence Has Found Its Way Into the Bedroom and what We Can Do about it. They discuss why these acts are so prevalent, and whether women and girls are feeling pressured into them.Could the state pension age be raised again from 67 to 68 and what would it mean for women? We talk to the former pensions minister and conserative peer Baroness Ros Altmann.And we hear the latest about female nominations at the Oscars with film critic Karen Krizanovich.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Donald McDonald

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, you're very welcome to Wednesday's edition of the programme. If you're listening right now, have you been thinking about when you might retire? Are you one of those people that are counting the days? Well, if so, you might need to add a few more days because plans have been floated to raise the retirement age.

Will they materialise? That's a question. No confirmation as yet, but some believe that it could be raised to 68 in a bid to save money, which would affect, I should say, these plans,

people aged 54 and under. So what would that mean to you? Well, we have Ros Altman standing by. We will speak to her in just a moment. We also want to continue our conversation on childcare. Bridget Philipson, Shadow Education Secretary will be with us to discuss what reforms Labour are drawing up.

It's expected to be a key issue in the next election. Some people saying childcare, childcare, childcare. I know Estonia and Australia are in their sights for inspiration. So we'll talk about why that is. And to a book. We All Want Impossible Things. This is a book that delves into lifelong friendship at the end of life.

In a hospice, to be exact. It's beautiful. It's very funny. I found it unputdownable. And I'm very much looking forward to speaking to Catherine Newman, the author, who gives due recognition to the importance of female friendship. And I'd like to hear from you. I mean, maybe, like Catherine, you have cared for a friend

who is dying with all that it brings. Or maybe you've had experiences within a hospice, extraordinary places that they are. If so, do text the programme 84844, charged at your standard message rate. We're on social media as well. That's at BBC Woman's Hour. Or you can email us through our website.

For WhatsApp or voice notes, that is 03700 100 444. And data charges may apply depending on your provider. So you might want to use Wi-Fi instead if you can. And the terms and conditions, as always, are on our website. We're also going to be talking about choking during sex. Now, this is something that has been normalised within certain circles, but it is not without risk. We will be speaking to two women who've been looking at how it has become mainstream

for many in a younger age group. So that is coming up. And also the Oscars. Did your favourite film make the cut? Did you see that they had 11 nominations for everything, everywhere, all at once? So it seems like everyone is quite into that one. We will take a look at how women have fared across the board.

That is all coming up. So get in touch, 844 at BBC Women's Hour on any of those topics. But I want to start with the state pension age. It's going up from 66 to 67 in 2028. You might have heard that. The next rise to 68, not due to happen until 2028. You might have heard that. The next rise to 68, not due to happen until 2046.

So we're kind of putting it on the back burner there. But there have been newspaper reports this week that the Treasury are planning to bring that forward to 2035. Much more within our sights. That's as birth rates plummet.

So what effect would this have, particularly on women? Ros Altman is a pensions expert, a Conservative peer and former pensions minister, and joins us now. Thank you so much for joining us. First off, how seriously should we be taking these reports? And why do you think the government might be thinking of bringing the age forward? Well, the reason that the government is reported to be thinking about it is to save money. The cost of the state pension has now risen beyond £100 billion a year, which, of course, is a large sum. But I think we do need to recognise that the state pension,

especially for many women, and more so for women than men, is often the only support that they have in later life once they can't work anymore. So the cost-cutting measure here is driven by the reasoning that average life expectancy has been increasing, which we all thankfully know, you know, generally speaking, people are living longer. But, of course, there are millions of people in the country who are well below average, who don't stay healthy

or live long enough to recognise or be rewarded by this ever-rising age. I did see some of the statistics in an article that you wrote, which was from the ONS, saying that the bottom 10% of disadvantaged people in the country only remain in good health on average until around the age of 50. Correct. And that is the latest figures from the Office of National Statistics, which show that the worst off 10%, if you like, stay healthy until around age 51 or 52, whereas the best off stay healthy into their early 70s, just beyond age 70. So we have this 50-year, nearly 50-year differential, 20-year differential, sorry, in healthy life expectancy across the country. And yet the state

pension doesn't recognise any of that. And the added problem is that, especially for women who are not healthy beyond their 50s and into their 60s and genuinely can't work. They are the ones least likely to have been able to build up a private pension. And, you know, we pay the lowest state pension in the developed world. So our system relies on you having an additional pension to give you perhaps that extra flexibility and hopefully a bit of extra comfort in your retirement. But by continually raising the starting age for the state pension, you are disadvantaging more and more of those people who never had a chance to build the kind of private pension that our system relies on, and are in poor health.

Many of them may have extremely long national insurance records, but then unfortunately face periods of poor health because of their earlier working life maybe, or just because of the genetic makeup. But whatever it is, we have to, I think, recognize that you can't just keep pushing the age up and have a successful social welfare system. We have to rethink the flexibility that

we need to build in. So what would that look like then? Because at the moment, I suppose, it's one size fits all. It's not taking into account where in the country you are. For example, I'm seeing certain areas that had much lower life expectancy than others, as we've touched upon there. How what sort of makeup would you see then for pensions that might work? Well, I think that the idea of encouraging people to work longer is right, and the idea that you shouldn't expect to retire at any particular age, it depends on you when you stop working, is also right. Of course, it's important not to use the skills and talents and experience of people as they get older. But the state pension is part of our social welfare system. And in that case, I think it would be much fairer across society to make sure that

those people who are genuinely not well enough to keep working, and we have to recognise that they, you know, they are indeed the bottom 40% don't stay healthy beyond around age 61 62 so recognize that there might be a need for some flexibility where people can get some access to state pension earlier than the average age so be able to cash out let's say in some respect this isn't a fund of money this This is social welfare. It's part of actually our benefit system. You pay international insurance and you insure yourself for the time when you were going to need to take the money out when you can't work. Now, at the moment, for example, after 35 years, you can get a full state pension. That's not really a full working life. Perhaps our system could say, if you want to save money, 45 years is what you need for a full state pension. And if you've got 45 or 50 years worth of national insurance and you're in poor health and, you know, you have the opportunity to claim money earlier rather than the current system, which is flexible only for the healthy and wealthy. If you're healthy and wealthy enough to wait longer and work longer and don't need your state pension at the ever rising age, currently at 66, then you can wait longer and get more state pension but if you are unhealthy and haven't got any other money you still can't get a penny sooner even if you desperately need it and i and claim might be you don't need the flexibility and claim might be a better word i think probably

a cash out is the wrong term that i was using there and i accept that um just very briefly before i let you go baroness for women that are working now, because this could affect people that are 54 and under, what should they do to try and mitigate at this point? Say they're 50, for example, asking for a friend. Yeah, certainly I would say that the advantages of putting money into private pensions are significant. The government spends around 50 billion pounds a year on incentives for private pensions are significant. The government spends around £50 billion a year on incentives for private pensions. So starting to build up a private pension that can tide you over until the age increases is one of the things that I think we need to consider. Also consider whether cutting down working part- is an option for you rather than stopping work

altogether, as well as perhaps retraining. You know, many, many people, especially women, may be in jobs that they can't physically keep doing. But that doesn't mean they can't do any work. And indeed, many women value the social interaction of work, not just earning the money and the feelings of usefulness, being part of society, all of those things. But, you know, we do need more support for women to get back into the labour market. Many have left for caring reasons, maybe looking after a terminally ill loved one and never go back. So having this kind of retraining, maybe even apprenticeships for older women and older people in general, would make sense because they have got so much skill and talent. And even if you're not working full time, working part time is still going to make you better off and also make all the rest of us better off, keep society better off. Well, we shall pick it up again. Let's see exactly what will be confirmed.

If anything is confirmed, these are reports, as I mentioned, that were taking place in the papers, really, and sparking conversations. We did ask for a statement from the Treasury, but we are following.

We haven't received that yet. But just on what they are saying in relation to this story. Baroness Altman, thank you so much for joining us. A couple of messages coming in. Let me see, this is Angela in Glasgow. She says, I was born in the 50s.

My pension age changed from 60 to 66. So it'd be my only income if I ever do manage to retire. I'm 66 this year, but can't afford to retire. I've now been working for 48 years. It's actually making people work until they drop. Ken also in touch. He says he's still working in the voluntary sector. He says the full impact of an ageing population is bearing down.

The case for older people in employment becomes urgent. Echoing some of the thoughts there of Baroness Altman as well. Thanks very much to her. You know, she mentioned there that some people take time out caring perhaps for somebody who's terminally ill, which actually brings me to my next guest and to a book. And maybe if I were to

tell you that this is about a woman dying of ovarian cancer narrated by her best friend. And you might think of one sort of book, but We All Want Impossible Things, that's the book by Catherine Newman, who's sitting opposite me here, is funny.

An awful lot of sex. And it's also very, very sad, but so much laughter. A real celebration, I thought, of all sorts of love. Catherine, you're so welcome. Thank you so much. I loved this book.

Ah, thank you. I really did. And I have a weird habit of sometimes listening and reading to a book at the same time. I know, I kind of dip from one to the other. Odd habits that I have. But I loved it in both formats. And it's about, at the heart of it, about friendship, which I really want to tell our listeners. 84844, if you've had that deep friendship, maybe a lifelong friendship at the end of life.

This is Ash and Edie. Tell us about it. So Ash and Edie have been friends for 40-something years. And they know everything about each other. They are each other's chosen people, which is what's perhaps most unique about friendship in general. I loved reading about their friendship. I think lots of people will identify with that other person that you have that is not your sister, but like a sister. And this story was inspired by your own experience? It was, yes. I had a friend like that, and she died about eight years ago.

And we spent a lot of time in hospice doing many of the things we'd always done, lying in her bed together, reading magazines and talking and laughing and crying and ultimately parting company. And letting her go. I'm so sorry for your loss because I can only imagine from reading the book, if that was inspired by it, that it must have been an immense loss. An immense, an immense loss. Yes. And I will say, not that anyone needs this advice from me, but it does remind you to love nobody tepidly. That it just all in all the time. That's how I feel. It's how I felt already. But since then, all in all the time, my friends have to endure me saying at every parting, even if I'm just leaving a pub, I say, I love you guys so much. They say we love you too. I mean, just there's no time to be tentative or tepid, just extravagance.

That's the motto. And I suppose that also you realize your own mortality and the mortality of those around you, which it's very easy to ignore, actually, when you're of a certain young age. Yes, very easy to ignore and then impossible to forget. So just to outline the story for our listeners, that the friend, of course, is very ill. And instead, they decide to move Edie, the friend friend to a hospice near Ash's home in Massachusetts and that she says goodbye to her son and husband and is going to spend those final weeks, months with Ash instead of her immediate family. But I was questioning, would anybody actually do that?

It's a good question. Of all of the fictional things in the novel, and there are some, there are also a lot of real things, but her husband, the husband of my actual friend in real life, has made so much fun of me for the fundamental fictional conceit of me moving Edie to be right where I was. Well, you're right in the book. You can say what you want. I've never, I didn't even realize I was doing it. I did it in the book because it made telling the story easier. Everyone was in the same place. But oh my gosh, now that I see it, that I just, as a total narcissistic rewriting of history, that I am at the centre of her dying.

And that is fictional, but so real to me. But there were parts of it, I suppose, with that, because those, as we all know, anybody who's been close to somebody who has died, the final days can be, or weeks maybe, can be very tough, even physically for somebody as they transform as as they change yes it's um i mean i could understand a small child you know not somebody deciding you know maybe to not have this small child around at that time everybody has their i'm not making

any judgments here but some people might oh i mean the truth is her kids were not there a lot because it really was too much. They were young and it was a lot. It's very hard to be a young person trying to leave your body. It was a real rigorous journey she was on. It takes place in the hospice, as we mentioned. And I think the hospice is really the backdrop to the friendship, which I'll keep coming back to because, you know, friends see things in a certain way,

whether it's that little dog called Farrah Fawcett that keeps eating cheese, or whether it's the Lady Ruth next door who watches Fiddler on the Roof every day. Talk me through your experience of friendship in that hospice and, you know, whether it comes through in the book or your actual real life one. So that hospice is kind of a mix of the hospice where my friend really died and also I volunteer in a hospice. I make dinner every Monday in a hospice. And hospice is a magic place because the urgency is behind you. The urgency of hospital is behind you. And it is the only thing it reminds me of is that time in a hospital with a newborn where the world is careening on without you outside and you are in a bubble doing a magic life moment that everybody goes through. But when you're in it, it's completely unique to you. I'm seeing people are getting

in touch. I just want to read some of their comments out. Emma, my role when my best friend died consisted of supporting writing her will, taking her away for her last ever look at the true sea off the north Norfolk coast, culminating in acting as a celebrant, delivering her whole funeral, something

I'd never done before, managing the service and seeing out her coffin. She died before reaching 50 following breast cancer and a subsequent brain tumour. But do you think that friends get the recognition that they deserve at life milestones, whether it's the beginning or end of life? No. You're asking a total narcissist. I complained at her funeral because when they unveiled her gravestone, it said, you know, wife, mother, sister, daughter.

And I was like, what? And everyone teased me that I was going to come out with a marker and write friend. But that said, I felt it from her, certainly. Yeah. I mean, is there a push pull at that end of life about who gets to be center stage with the person who's leaving? Oh, I think there must be. I was too busy being completely in love with everybody in hospice and in her life to feel anything other than grateful. But I think for lots of people, there's a lot of push-pull.

You talk about being in love. In the book, there was an awful lot of sex in it, which maybe you'd like to explain to our listeners. There is a lot of sex in it. Ash, in the book, the character Ash, talks about her falling in love disorder. And that is something Ash and I had in common. When my friend was dying, I was so blown open by grief that I was in love with everybody, everyone who came into the room. I was in love with my family, my friends, my husband, my friend's family. And I thought at some point, I should write this as a novel where what the falling in love disorder looks like is her sleeping with everybody. Excuse me while I cough. Yes. No, I'm sorry. Excuse me. I don't usually cough. I have a tickle.

A tickle in my throat. Forgive me. Forgive me, listeners. But you're falling in love. But I think that was quite a lot of laughter in the book as well. When you are, when the character Ash, I should say, is having sex with various, maybe somewhat unsuitable people. That wasn't something that happened in real life, was it? Are you allowed to ask that? I think so. The falling in love disorder is very real. The, you know, smuttiness in the hospice laundry room is fictional. Okay. I think some more coming in. I volunteered a hospice and with my husband run a walking group for those who have been bereaved. It has taught me so much about life and death, Sarah, from Suffolk. Also, Helen saying lucky enough to stay with her husband

in Wilfred's Hospice in Chichester for the last 10 days of his life, age 62. The hospital, or hospice, excuse me, is precious family time, complete with many friends, so much laughter, a fair number of G&Ts for a very sad time. It was also incredibly comforting, peaceful and happy time. Do you think people know enough about what happens inside those walls? I'm wondering because even as you're reading these listener comments, I'm thinking there's so much magic and you don't really know.

And I don't mean to downplay the pain of it, but it really is a magical time because the effort is in the past. And so the gin and tonics, I can't tell you how many people I've walked outside to have their last cigarette. You know, it's sort of all bets are off with hospice. And it's quite precious. Food is a big part. Yes. Also, particularly looking for this polenta, Sicilian lemon polenta cake, which you find. Why does it have such a central role? I think the appetites, I think there's something about the appetites that I was trying to think through in the book, both, you know, Ash having sex and eating. There's a lot of, I think about it in hospice every week when I'm there feeding people that until you are fully done with it, the body is doing its body thing.

I'm also just thinking that really in those last days of life, you can't eat your body. It's one of the first kind of signs that the end is very close. That is true. That's the end and yes This novel is out eight years after your friend died and I'm just wondering about that experience obviously grief

some people say you know it kind of stays with you but life kind of fills around that hole there's various expressions writing that again though it must have been difficult going back into it. It was. It was. I had taken a lot of notes and I laughed and cried the entire time I was writing. So yes, it was. But it was so decadent. I read all my journals from childhood.

I read all her letters from camp. There was something about wallowing in the interest of work that just felt like the most decadent thing I'd ever done. But, you know, you do go into the specifics of, I suppose, the difficulties of a body dying, you know, whether it's been, you know, administering medicine or the difficulty of bodily fluids, to put it very frankly, towards the end. Yeah. And did you worry that you might turn readers off?

I should have worried. You didn't because I loved it. I'm glad. I think I worry that there's not enough talk of the mess of it. It's such a mess or it can be. I mean, I think some people die very tidily, I've seen, but it's often so chaotic and it's such a mess. And I think you can feel completely unprepared for that. And so I thought, just as a little side note from that entertainment, that that might be a service, just to expect it. You know, it was. My father died about 10 days ago. I know. But I read your book before, just as he was beginning to go down. And I can't tell you how many times it came into my mind while I was caring for him. Even the lip balm.

Yes, the lip balm. Right? These small things, which, you know, I think it is important to talk about death and dying. And I think the book does a great service for that. Thank you. What advice would you give to anyone listening who has a friend who is dying? What have you learned? Right after you said friend, I was going to say, don't let them die. But a friend who is dying.

I mean, again, I go back to the extravagance. Now is not the time for boundaries. That's what I would say. You know, we're trained so much these days to think about, you know, boundaries. And I feel like just unbounded, all in, all in, all hands on deck. That's how I felt that it's at anything. Nobody is on their deathbed wishing they'd loved less extravagantly. So that is my advice. Some messages coming in for you.

Andrew said, we promised my late mother she could die at home, but unfortunately she needed to be moved to a hospice towards the end. We firmly believe she thought she was at home. This is in part to the atmosphere that Catherine is describing. Amazing places. Let me see. This is from Judith. My younger daughter chose to be cared for by a local hospice when she died in 2021. My partner had also received community care input before his death eight months earlier.

As well as caring wonderfully for my daughter, the hospice provided and continues to provide support for me and my family. My hospice counsellor arranged counselling for one of my granddaughters through her local hospice. The help is still available for me. There's a walk and talk group for grieving families and friends. It seems the hospice movement, at least in my experience, is such an amazing concept, needs all the support we can give it to ensure the end of life care meets both patients' and families' needs and also expectations. Perfect.

Well, so lovely to have you in. I have to say, We All Want Impossible Things is the name of the book. If we piqued your interest, Catherine Newman is our guest who has been in. And I have to say, I found it, as I mentioned, unputdownable and loved the book. I meant to ask you as well, has Reese Witherspoon given you a call? If only. From your lips to God's ears. I have a feeling I could put money on that one. That I'd be right.

Thanks so much for coming in to us, Catherine. We appreciate it so much. An awful lot of social media, an awful lot of tweets coming in on pensions and we were talking about that just a moment ago with Baroness Altman let me see how about they forget raising state pension age for ordinary working people who have paid their national insurance how about they chase people millionaires who don't pay their taxes let people retire at any age of their choice you only get mathematical portion if you retire before 66 the type of work should also make a difference, another comment, to retirement age.

A lorry driver or a builder working to 68 or older is very different to somebody working on a desk job to 68. Let me see. There is a statement from the Department of Work and Pensions. The government is required by law to regularly review the state pension age, the second of which will be published later this year, they say. So that are just some of the comments that are coming in that obviously touched a nerve with our listeners. Keep your coming in, 84844 or at BBC Women's Hour. Right, I want to turn to a conversation that we have been having, that we will continue to have. It's the issue of childcare.

The Conservatives and Labour Party appear to be agreed on that issue, that they're keeping it on the agenda. Both parties realise it will be a key battleground in the general election, with polling suggesting it's of particular concern to some of the red wall seats, which the Conservatives need to hold on to if they're to stay in government. The UK's childcare system is one of the most expensive in the world, ranked one of the least effective. That's according to a recent report by UNICEF. And we are inviting the two main parties to tell us about their plans. Joining us today is Bridget Philipson, Shadow Education Secretary.

Welcome to the studio. Hello, good morning. Good to have you with us. Right, your party has talked about reforms that will be comparable with the creation of the NHS. Hearing about guaranteeing childcare for all parents of children aged nine months to 11 years, but how many hours are we talking about? So I am really ambitious about the change that we need to see because of the real challenges that we see in the childcare system at the moment. So childcare for so many parents is very expensive and increasingly unavailable. Lots of providers closing their doors.

I believe we need to think very differently about how we deliver childcare in this country, how we make it a part of our education system and how we deliver change that will last into the long run. Because what we've got right now, I don't think works for parents, for mothers in particular, who give up jobs they love or cut back on their hours because they can't get childcare. And I believe that has a big impact on the individual, usually the woman, sadly, and that's how things are at the moment, but also for the economy. And, you know, we lose really brilliant, talented people because childcare is just so expensive and not available. I could tie that back to pensions, but I won't at this particular point. But I have seen that, and I was reading an article, you went to Estonia to take a look at that model. Why?

They have a very different approach overall to education in Estonia. It really is central to the country's identity. It's really central to what they seek to achieve. And I believe we need to put education right at the heart of what we want to do differently and do better in England. And if you look at what they have in terms of the integration of that earlier education and care into the education system, but also really high quality of care too, because here in England, a lot of children at the moment arrive at school not ready to learn and already falling behind their more affluent peers. If we want to tackle

those attainment gaps, if we want to deliver brilliant standards in our schools then I think there is a big question to address around those early years and education there. But having a look at Estonia, their early years teachers they they must have a degree. They earn more generous pay. And in contrast, 44% of UK childcare workers claim public benefits or tax credits because their pay is so low. So are you or Labour recommending that those early year teachers in the UK should have a degree and more generous pay? I think if you look at what we have now, and it is usually women who are delivering the care as well as women who often find that their careers suffer because where there isn't childcare that's available. Yes, I do think we need to have higher standards. We need to have better supported staff working in early years education. This will take time, of course, you know, the economy right now,

I think is in a bit of a mess. And I want to make sure that when we set out plans around how we will do things differently, we're clear about how we're going to pay for that, how it will be costed, but also that we've got a plan to make it happen because it will require any change in childcare, both in terms of standards, but also any expansion in what's available to parents. We need to have a brilliant and properly supported workforce to deliver that. But that would be a huge change that it was a degree level job. Well, I do think we need to change how things are delivered. To that point?

I do think we need more well-qualified, highly skilled people working in early years education. The people that are there right now are working really hard. But, you know, increasingly when you visit early years providers and you speak to staff, a lot of staff are leaving to work in, say, retail because the pay is very low. It's a part of the economy as well where they don't have a collective voice. So in other parts of education, teachers, for example, do have a collective voice, those working in our mainstream schools and other settings. Where it comes to early years, that's not how we have things right now. And I think we need to drive up standards for staff, as well as making sure that children get a really

brilliant start. So that's Estonia. Why are you looking at Australia? It goes to the point that you've raised at the start around how this is, I think, a really big issue for the next election. We have a Labour government in Australia. Part of their big commitment at the election that they won was around reforming childcare and making it more affordable and more available for families. So I'm going over to Australia very soon to look at how they're approaching things. I do believe that we should look at good examples from around the world where things are working more effectively and working differently. We don't have monopoly on wisdom here in England. And Labour wants to look at those kind of new and different ways of doing things around the world. Well, the things that are different are ratios.

When I had a look at them, you know, they have a much lower ratio. We say four to one, for example, I think, in comparison to some other countries that might be eight to one, depending on the age group. Of course, it changes. Do, what do you think is acceptable? Would you or the Labour Party be in favour of more kids to one teacher? I'm concerned about the changes that the government are talking about where it comes to ratios. It's been off and on but last week we heard again from Rishi Sunak that he was looking at changes to the ratios. I don't think that is what parents want to see right now and I worry it will compromise the quality of education and care that's provided to children. I also worry

that it will place more responsibility on staff who are already under big pressure. Any changes I think that should be considered around staffing and the workforce and professional standards should be taken as one wider view not a narrow focus on how we change the ratios and I think risk compromising quality. And actually it won't make it cheaper for parents either. Why not? Because already the funding, the way that the system currently works is that the government worked out how much it would cost

to deliver those entitlements that are there. They took a chunk out of it and passed that on to providers. So providers are not currently receiving what they need to deliver what they're expected to deliver. So, you know, there's still a shortfall. There is a shortfall. And that's why costs are passed on to parents. And that's part of the reason we see such crippling, cripplingly high costs for parents in this country. And, you know, we've got a very piecemeal system, we've had different bits of funding, different approaches bolted on. And what Labour is looking at is how we have a coherent system, a modern system that stretches from the end of parental leave to the end of primary school.

And the first step that we've set out around that is universal breakfast clubs for all primary school children in England. So it's important that we get the part around early years right. But parents will know that childcare pressures don't end when your children start at school. Yes looking at Estonia it seems like a lot of the early years schooling stays open until 7pm I mean it's a completely different model but interesting talking about looking at stuff from other countries they do have a much larger ratio we could be eight to eight kids to one adult or seven to one adult compared to the four to one adult, which may be in the UK, but doesn't sound like Labour wants to change on that. But any of these issues that we're bringing up, of course, they're a huge expense. And I haven't

heard or seen any details from Labour on how it would be paid for. So we've set out where it comes to the Breakfast Club's commitment. So a guaranteed breakfast club for every primary school child in England. That's £365 million and we'd pay for that by ending the non-dorm tax status. We're looking across the board at what we will be saying going into the next election where it comes to the early years. Everything that we set out will be fully funded and fully costed and we need to have a plan to deliver it too. But I think when you look at the economic cost to the country, where you have women giving up jobs they love, and we see growing numbers of

women, women in particular, cutting back on their hours or not returning to work after they've had their first child because of the issues that exist around childcare, that comes at a big cost to the country as well as to the individual. And I think if you're serious about economic growth, you've got to be serious about sorting out childcare too. But we still, my very first question, which we didn't really get the answer to, is how many hours would you be talking about? We're looking at all of that. I'm not sure that thinking of it in terms of hours is necessarily the right way to do it, because I think some parents will need different kinds of flexibility. You know, I've spoken to a lot of shift workers, for example, a lot of trade unions representing those who work in slightly less regular hours. I think we need to

better reflect the way that parents live their lives today, the way that families live their lives today. And that's what Labour is focused on. So I think thinking about hours and this current system that we've got where it's 15 hours for some children, 30 hours when they're a bit older for a lot of people. It's a very fragmented system. And I think we need a greater degree of coherence overall and it to be part of the education system. Do you think, speaking about the costing, you talk about the non-dom basically cashing in on that

and people with that status, do you think that would be enough to pay for what Labour wants to do? Well, the part that we've set out already, we've costed it and we've paid for it as part of that, you know, ending non-dom tax status raises in excess of £3 billion and the breakfast clubs element is £365 million. Beyond that, we'll set out more detail a bit closer to the election, we're still potentially two years away. I think it's about the principles of what it is we want to do and how we seek to change things overall. I believe we need to fundamentally rethink as a country the importance that we attach to childcare. It's not an add-on, it's not a nice to have, it's an essential part of our country's infrastructure.

I think for people who might be into your plans or might very much be in favour of them, they want to know where will the money come from to pay for it. Absolutely. And I can be completely confident and guarantee that when we set out additional plans with that more precise detail, there'll be a plan to fund it and cost it. We take our responsibility seriously where it comes to economic credibility. You've seen what happens when you've got a government that rides roughshod over the way in which we should do things. And of course, the Conservatives would take issue with that, some Conservatives. But when can people expect to see those specific costing plans? Closer to the election, we'll set out a lot more detail around that.

We're still potentially two years out from an election, but I think given the importance that we attach to it, I've been out speaking to parents right across the country about this, to try and take on board the change that they want to see and also the change that we need to see in the sector. But it's grandparents too. Of course, it often affects mothers in particular,

but some of our grandparents, you know, of course, grandparents have got a really important role to play in supporting their wider family. But actually, a lot of women in their 50s and 60s, I hear from, are cutting back on their own hours at work to look after grandchildren. And that, again, has a big cost. Thank you so much for coming in

to speak to us, Bridget Philipson. We also invited the government to come on the programme to talk about their plans regarding childcare. Both Gillian Keegan and Clare Coutinho have said they must currently decline the invite.

The offer is open. I'm sure we'll speak to someone from the Department for Education in the coming months. They did send us this statement. Minister Coutinho is currently looking into options to improve the cost, flexibility and availability of childcare, ensuring that any plans we bring forward focus on improving outcomes for children. To date, this government has doubled the offer for three and four-year-olds,

introduced 15 hours free childcare a week for disadvantaged two-year-olds and people on universal credit can claim back up to 85% of their childcare costs over the past five years, they say. We've invested more than £20 billion to support families with the cost of childcare. I also want to let people know, because this is, of course, an issue that affects so many of you, that there is a childcare

special that we did on Woman's Hour. It was October 28th, so just go to BBC Sounds and you can check that all out. And this is not the last time we'll be speaking to Bridget Phillipson either. Thank you so much. Thank you very much.

Okay, I want to just give you a warning, really, with our next topic that is coming up. Perhaps you have got small children with you. I just want to let you know that it is a sensitive topic. It is, you might want to let you know that it is a sensitive topic. It is, I might want to switch over, come back to us in a couple of minutes time. It is about choking

during sex, sometimes known as breath play or erotic asphyxiation. It is apparently becoming more prevalent, particularly among younger age groups. There is a UK study that found that more than a third of women under the age of 40 had experienced choking during sex. Another survey on the US university campus found that 65% of the

female students were choked during their first ever sexual or kissing encounter. But why is it becoming normalised if so? And how does consent factor in? Let me bring in Chanel Contos, a sexual consent activist behind the campaign Teachers Consent, which saw consent education made mandatory in all Australian schools from kindergarten. Hi, Chanel. Hi, how are you? Good to have you with us. We also have Rachel Thompson, the author of Rough How Violence Has Found Its Way Into the Bedroom and What We Can Do About It.

Hi, Rachel. Hello. So I think for those that are not familiar with this term, as I talk about sexual choking, what are we talking about? Yes. So, yeah. So basically, when we're talking about sexual choking, I think it's really important to be sort of distinct in the two categories. So we're talking about non-consensual choking, which is sexual assault just by, you know, by nature of the absence of consent. Whereas, you know, sexual choking with consent is a niche BDSM sex act. But it's quite when it's practiced by the BDSM community, there's lots of safety protocols because it's really high risk. There's lots of things to consider, the risk of

death, the risk of serious neurological injury and things like that. So there is a difference. And I think, yeah, as you say, there's lots of data now to support that this is entering the mainstream. There's also studies in the US that suggest that nearly 60% of university age women have been choked without consent. There's lots of research to suggest that even girls as young as, you know, 14, between the age of 14 and 16, they've also experienced choking. And as you just mentioned as well, it's happening in those very early sexual experiences when people are having sex for the first time or even just, you know, kissing for the very first time.

So let me throw that over to Chanel. In your experience, how normalised would you say this is among your age group or the sort of conversations that you're having with your peers about it? Yeah, I would say it's extremely normalized. And I think we can definitely point to pornography as a medium that has normalized that for younger generations. But something I just want to kind of highlight

in the two distinctions as well, we have the niche, I'm putting that in quotation marks, BDSM kink stream of sexual choking. And then we have this non-consensual stream of choking but I think we really need to raise attention to the fact that pornography has not only normalized this act for men but often women as well and therefore there are a lot of women who do consent to choking or don't believe that it needs consent either because it's an act that's been so normalized them from a young age in their experiences and I think that's also an issue there because there's no explicit consent,

but it's not being perceived by the person being choked as an act of violence because they just think that's what's meant to happen. And is it always the man choking the woman or does it go the other way too? I mean obviously it can go the other way too, but I think in the vast majority of situations and the type of imagery depicted in pornography, it is in heterosexual situations, it is usually a man choking a woman, which definitely brings into, you know, factors of power play and gender imbalances as well.

Well, let me turn back to you then, Rachel. Let's talk about the safety aspects of this. Experts have warned there's no totally safe way to engage in it. But if people do choose to take, I suppose, a calculated risk, what do you think they should know? I think there's a number of things to know. And I think, first of all, I think a really fundamental concept of if you're thinking even just about having any form of sex, you should know that each individual sex act requires consent so that doesn't mean you know um at the start of a sexual encounter that when you you say you know there's like a tick box exercise at the start

almost that you're just like yes and that's yes to everything when we're talking you know when you're in a sexual situation, it's like, you know, you're introducing something new that requires consent. And so that's really important. I think also, if you are thinking about introducing something like this, which is a form of kink, those conversations shouldn't be happening in the bedroom in that spur of the moment, you should be having those conversations. You know, a lot of sex therapists, sex educators agree on this, that you should broach that topic in neutral territory. So away from the bedroom or wherever you're going to have sex.

Can I interrupt you? Excuse me, Rachel. But I'm just thinking, you know, you were saying that it'll often happen with somebody's first encounter yes and I'm just wondering where the consent even fits into you know what I mean that the timeline of events to be explicit yeah I mean I think ultimately this boils down to because we are living in um the age of sexual misinformation there is a sex misinformation crisis. And there's a number of things feeding into that, you know, we, unfortunately, do not have robust sex education. So young people are not entering into those very early experiences equipped with vital information that is, you know, first of all, consent is ongoing and can be withdrawn at any time. And that also you have

the ability, you are empowered to say no to anything that makes you uncomfortable or hesitant. And that actually a maybe is also a no. And that people who are perhaps asking the question, do you want to try this? If a person is hesitant, if they're giving non-verbal cues that suggest they might be uncomfortable, then that should also be interpreted as a no. But just to return to your point about safety, I think, as we've said, you know, there are concerns about, you know, this, essentially you are cutting off oxygen, right? And that's breath play does that. You know, this can result, it's a high risk sex act. It can result in death.

It can result in neurological conditions, strokes, seizures, things like that. And those are all things you need to consider. So, and the BDSM community, while practicing it, they take into account all of these factors. You should never carry this out if you're under the influence of drugs or alcohol. And you should, if you really are considering this and you have the consent of everyone involved, you should study the anatomy of the neck

and make sure that you know where you're touching and that you're not causing someone serious injury. Well, you bring up a lot of points there, Chanel. Let me go back to you. You all that rachel is saying there do you think your peers are thinking about that and do they feel empowered to bring up the conversation of consent look for me the for me i my worry really doesn't lie with this kind of minority bdsm community it that you know centers consent in their work. My concern lies the fact that this has become a normal first sexual act for young people and

you know people kind of in the dating world these days in general and my concern is that so it's called choking colloquially but it's actually a form of strangulation when you're cutting off um airways and as we've made clear it's a dangerous thing to do and i just find it very strange that if if an intimate partner strangles you that's the number one sign that they will murder you um yet we've made this an act that is completely normalized in the bedroom in these younger generations and i think we just need to start having conversations that empower young women to take a step back and think where the source of their consent lies. Because I think if someone, you know, suddenly, um, took you out of the blue or in a violent way, it, you would probably be able to act, recognize that as an act of violence. But what I'm concerned about is that young women are consenting again, in quotation marks to this act, not understanding that they have other

opportunities, that it's not a normal part of sex, that it doesn't have to be included in the bedroom. It is meant to be a niche. So good to have both of you on. Thank you so much, Chanel Contos, and also Rachel Thompson, talking about choking during sex and, of course, all the implications that there are with that as well. I really appreciate both of you coming on here to Women's Hour. Now I want to move on in our last few moments to films. 2023 Oscar nominees. They have been announced at the Academy's Samuel Goldwyn Theatre in Beverly Hills.

Everything, Everywhere, All at Once, an indie sci-fi comedy drama. You got that. Starring Michelle Yeoh and Jamie Lee Curtis, leads with 11 nominations. But how does this year's nominations fare for women in the film and television industry? Well, with us is film journalist and secretary of the Critics Circle, Karen Krasinovich. Very good to have you with us. So, you know, we've seen the return to the big budget spectacles.

How do you think this set of nominations compared to previous years for women? Well, I think women are more recognized now, not just as actresses, obviously supporting actresses, but as filmmakers. And I think that that is becoming part of the norm. And I think I also think that men as an audience are beginning to be open to women's stories as just being stories. So that's a plus. That said, there's always room for improvement. So 11 nominations, I mentioned,

for Everything Everywhere all at once. And we do have, with that, a number of supporting actor categories. We see Jamie Lee Curtis and Stephanie Hugh. They were both in the race for Best Supporting Actress. What stood out to you? Well, it was a very exciting year, I think, because I've been going to festivals all year and waiting for films to come up and see if they're being nominated. Because the Oscars, even though they are a popularity contest, pretty much, they are very, very important in the film landscape.

And I think the success of Everything Everywhere All at Once, which came out in May of last year, is notable. Not only because it's a crazy, mad story, but the cast is fantastic. They're actors that we know. And I think that the Daniels, the two directors, have done a brilliant job with a film that incorporates the metaverse in a way that's never been incorporated before. Michelle Yeoh, she has made history as a nominee as first Asian Best Actress, although some are saying that there actually was Merle Oberyn in 1936, but she hid her ancestry.

She was part Sri Lankan. But, you know, it has taken so long, 95 years for recognition. Yeah, well, you know, it was never a thing. I mean, Raquel Welsh had a Latino background. You know, people didn't really bring that kind of thing out. They just, you know people didn't really bring that kind of thing out they just you know were just actors and i think the fascinating thing about michelle yeo is that she started and well she started as a dancer but uh she has been in in films doing her own stunts in hong kong since the 90s we've seen her in science fiction we've seen her in drama we've seen her

in genre we've seen her in in streaming series we've seen her in big, big budget movies, Memoirs of a Geisha, you know, so many things. And this film seems to sum up her entire career in these crazy sort of metaverse montages. But does it indicate a change or an opening for more diversity and inclusion? I think it shows that, and she's described in, as this character, Evelyn, Evelyn Wang, is described as a middle-aged Asian woman. I mean, you know, it's really like her life is over just with that description. I think it shows that an actress of her quality can show us almost the everyman. And because we've known her throughout her career, and this film shows us that her story is our story, could be our story. An actress for 38 years.

Do you, you know, we were talking about the BAFTAs the other day, do you ever see the Oscars going gender neutral? No, I don't. Not for the time being, because we want as many categories as possible. And what about the women behind the camera? How is that looking? Directors, producers being nominated? Yes, that is a bit of a sore point.

There are no women directors this year. There have been seven nominated. And there certainly weren't a lack of women. For example, Sarah Pauly for Women Talking, Gina Price Bythewood, The Woman King, Mira Schrader's She Said, and also Till and Aftersun. There's a lot of female directors there that didn't get a nod

and that's a bit crippling, although there is a female cinematographer and other filmmakers as well, but the directing blow is a big one. Okay, so that's where it's not doing so well this year. Thanks so much for coming in to us, Karen Krivinovich,

joining us here on Woman's Hour, bringing us across the nominations and how they fared for women. Well, do join Woman's Hour tomorrow from 10 when we have a very exciting programme for you. We'll be launching the Power List for 2023,

bringing together the most influential and significant women in one key area. In previous years, we've covered music and the environment, but I won't tell you the focus of this year's list just yet.

You have to listen in tomorrow to find out. And crucially, we'll need your help in creating it. So don't miss it. All details on Women's Hour tomorrow at 10. That will be with the one and only Anita Ranney.

But from me, thank you so much for your company this week. I will be back with you again next Monday at 10am. I do hope to see you then. And thanks so much for all your contributions and comments on all our stories today on Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. One, two, one, that's work.

What would happen if you tried to dig up all the bad things you've ever buried? Anything I tell you is a ghost of truth. This is a deathbed tape from a man who witnessed a crime so appalling that he wants us to dig it up. You know what you should have to do? Put a ticker digger and dig it up. We're Dan Ashby and Lucy Taylor. And from BBC Radio 4, this is Buried.

The story of the secret dumping of a million tonnes of waste near a UK city. We're sitting on a ticking time bomb. All he kept saying to me was, there's cover-ups, there's cover-ups. Subscribe now to Buried on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.