Woman's Hour - Brit and Mercury Prize-winning singer Heather Small, Chronic illness, Abortion

Episode Date: August 9, 2022

The British-born actor and singer Olivia Newton-John has died at the age of 73. Best remembered for playing the iconic role of Sandy in the musical film Grease. We pay tribute with Stockard Channing who played Rizzo in Grease, and the film critic Karen Krizanovich and Olivia Moore who is currently playing her in the stage version in London's west end. Brit & Mercury prize winner Heather Small on ‘Colour My Life’, her first album in sixteen years. For the album, she teamed up with the London Metropolitan Orchestra to re-imagine all of her Top 10 hits as well as release new songs and covers. What is it like to live with a chronic but hidden illness? Poppy Nash is a textile artist who lives with type 1 diabetes and one of her latest works The Art of Dying 2.0 is a full-scale installation of bedclothes and bedding, examining the experience of living in isolation as a ‘vulnerable’ person through the pandemic. Ione Gamble lives with Crohn’s disease. She’s the founder & editor of the art, fashion and culture publication, Polyester and has now written a book, Poor Little Sick Girls.The overturning of Roe v Wade in the USA has put abortion very much at the top of the news agenda. Our 2019 series in which women spoke, often for the first time, about their abortions seems even more relevant now. Today, a woman we are calling Kerry talks about the abortion she had when she was 18 and her certainty then and now that this was the right choice for her.Presenter: Jessica Creighton Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. We're paying tribute to singer, actress and activist Olivia Newton-John, who has passed away aged 73. There have been so many lovely memories and stories shared about Olivia from family, friends and colleagues as well. And I'm sure that many of you listening will have your own favourite song or film of hers that really touched you. Let us know. We're on WhatsApp now, so you can send us voice notes, pictures, even videos as well.

Save this number to your phone, 03700 100 444. That's 03700 100 444. Data charges may apply. You can still text us as well as normal. 84844. Texts are charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour. We'll be discussing one of Olivia's most iconic moments on screen.

Yes, that scene in Greece where her character Sandy transforms her image and we see her for the first time in those tight black trousers. Why is that scene still being talked about more than 40 years later? We'll be hearing from another one of the stars in that movie, Stockard Channing, who played Rizzo, who will be joining us to pay tribute to her co-star. Also this morning, one of Britain's most distinctive voices will be with me in the studio. Heather Small has released her first album in 16 years. The former M People singer will be talking about

why she's remixed all of her classic songs alongside an orchestra and how she went from shyness as a child to performing in front of thousands of people. Plus, living day to day with a chronic and invisible illness, two women share their experiences and how it's impacted their lives. Find out why one woman describes her bed as her biggest comfort, but also her worst enemy. We'll also have the final episode of our series on abortion, where a woman we're calling Kerry recalls her experience whilst in an unhappy relationship.

But first this morning, as I mentioned, British-born actor and singer Olivia Newton-John has died at the age of 73. She's best remembered for playing that iconic role of Sandy in the musical film Grease and possibly the scene she's best remembered for is when she transforms from the girl next door into teen rebel still sounds so good doesn't it uh olivia newton john joined us on woman's hour a number of times over the years talking about her career and also her charity work. And in 2012, during an interview with Jenny Murray,

she talked about those trousers. Yes, the black skin-tight pants she wore in that iconic scene. Every day, somewhere in the world, wherever I am, someone will ask me about the movie or they love it or their kids do or their grandkids do. And I just came back from a big tour of Asia and they said, where's John Travolta? Like he was an appendage and we were always together.

So it's really amazing that, you know, the world still thinks of me like that. And it's all right right now, but in 20 years it's going to be really weird. Kids will be looking at me like, what? They're going to expect you to have your shoulders bowed, very, very tight post, which I suspect you would still fit into, actually. Well, I wouldn't want to try them on now, but I still have them. Well, I'm joined now by the film critic Karen Krasanovic

to talk about the enduring appeal of Grease and its story of teenage sexual awakening in 1950s America, and also by Olivia Moore, who is currently playing Sandy in the stage version of Grease in London's West End. Very good morning to you both. Thank you for coming on to Woman's Hour. Olivia, I'd just like to start with you because I understand that you had to actually break the news of Olivia Newton-John's death during the performance of Grease Last Night? Yes, so I found out the news in the interval. So we went into Act Two, we did the show as normal. And then at the end, I read out a statement informing the news of her passing,

which was so surreal. And you could tell by the audience members, a lot of them didn't know the news. So it was a really sad moment, but also slightly heartwarming because the initial reaction from audience members, you could just tell how loved she was and is. So yeah, it was a very surreal moment, but a beautiful moment to be a part

of as well yeah and then you you then had to sing hopelessly devoted to you didn't you after breaking that news yeah so it's the first thing I do in act two um and yeah after knowing that news, it's always such a special song to sing. But I think after hearing what has happened, it made it so much more powerful. It was very emotional. And yeah, a lot of pressure as well, because that show and the rest of the run will be absolutely dedicated to her. So I put pressure on myself to make sure that it was perfect for her. But yeah, it's a moment that will stay with me. Now, Karen, one of the most popular scenes that people associate with Olivia Newton-John is, of course, as I mentioned, when she appears in Grease in that killer outfit.

Why is that so popular? Why is that so popular? Why is that image so memorable? Well, number one, she looks amazing and it's an iconic image. It's one that hasn't really become kitsch or, you know, we haven't decried it in the decades since the movies come out. But also I think it's for Sandy, the character, it's a transformation into something more, how can I say, I don't want to say sexy and sexual, but not abandoning her original character. So she just decides to take a different angle of her own personality, but it's still playful. It's still light and it's still somehow genuine. So I think that that's one of the reasons why

we love this particular scene. And also she looks amazing. She does, even still now. And Olivia, how does that scene translate in the theatre? What's it like playing that scene and putting on such tight trousers? um it's amazing I I feel amazing when I come out um and I think as well we kind of wanted to with this production we really wanted to um show a different kind of angle I think everyone kind of sees in the film her put on this really sexy outfit and and somehow then she's kind of you know people's opinions of her change and and as Karen said it's a different angle you know she's still this this warmth in in her character this cheekiness is still completely within that last section it's just it's just I

think it's that confidence and um that kind of I think self-respect for herself as well you know she's gone on such a journey. She's really, you know, she's had a lot of conflict with a lot of characters. And I think at that point, she's so defined in who she is and she's so strong and confident in it. And it's like, yeah, put those tight trousers on, girl, and you strut right out. Because it's honestly, doing it every night,

you feel so great and you feel so strong. And I think that is the message that we wanted in our production for female empowerment. And that moment really, really does emphasise that. Karen, that's interesting, isn't it? Olivia saying there it's a message of female empowerment. Is that how it's kind of considered within the film space? Do you feel as though that transformation might have been for her to get the guy? Or is there another way of looking at this?

Well, I mean, Olivia's got it completely right. It's this moment of confidence where she knows her own power, but it doesn't need to be heavy handed. It can still be playful and reach out and be welcoming. So in the film world, I think it's considered not only one of the great moments in transformation, and there are many throughout cinema history, but I think people see it, okay, number one is a visual, number two, ostensibly she does it to get the guy. But really the reason why it lasts is because we get to see her allowing herself to be, just to look different, to be different, to have a different approach, but to still be her. And I think that's very rare.

You hardly see that in a lot of scripts where something is done for a particular purpose. Now, the other iconic woman in that film, Grease, is Rizzo, played by Stockard Channing. And Stockard joins me now. Good morning to you. Thank you so much for coming on. And it's such a sad time for you because obviously you got to know Olivia Newton-John very well during that production, didn't you? Yes. Hi. Good morning. I have to say it was an enormous shock last night when I heard the news. I'd been out to dinner and I came back and I'd left my phone and there were these messages. So it was a great bolt from the blue and also brought everything back.

And when you speak of that scene, I remember very clearly, first of all, it was, the whole film wasn't really shot in sequence, but that was part of the last sequence, that whole last number, you know, with outside, there's a carnival and all that, brilliant, hot L.A. sunshine. And I do remember that none of us had ever seen

what she was going to come out. And she came out of her trailer in sort of a big sort of terrycloth bathrobe. And obviously you could see the hair was totally different than the makeup. But when she took off that robe everyone all of us in the company were just beside ourselves because of the transformation was so amazing and obviously rehearsed the scene we saw it several times but because they showed clips of it last night on the news and i was watching and i was

reminded if you look at all the guys, the boys' faces, when they were around her in the number, they're like, oh my God, oh my God. And I think they all were genuinely shocked. And John has this, John looks like a little boy confronted with a woman. That's what I thought watching it. And I totally agree that it was a moment of empowerment. And also, you know know it was kind of massively exciting as we were all standing there dripping in the sunshine exhausted it was really fun you know and then of course we did it over and over again and all that we can use to it but I think that initial reaction we all had to her yeah interesting that you all had the same reaction

as we had when we first saw that scene. Yeah. And I think she had a lot of fun with it. She loved it. She really did enjoy it. How was it for you on set playing, I suppose, the bad girl to Sandy's good girl image? I think I was probably playing the girl who was, I don't know, it was a bad girl. If you want to talk about empowerment, she was definitely someone who enjoyed sex and was out there and probably was quite threatened. You know, the new girl, the Australian from another, you know, all that, and threatening her power and her little clique of pink ladies and all that. I mean, as I remember, it was quite a while ago. But yeah, I think they were just kind of

I think at the end, the very end of the film there's this revelation that rizzo is not pregnant which if you throw your mind back if you if you were alive then uh in those days it was no joke and it isn't a joke today if you were pregnant as a teenager and so it was for rizzo at the very end, to me, she became a kid again. She was like a relieved teenager, you know, she'd avoided this. So there's a lot of joy, the whole ending of that moment, you know, with that wonderful fanciful thing where she and John get in this car and float up to the sky. So I think all that conflict or resentment or threaten was totally put aside at the end. So I think all that conflict or resentment or threat

was totally put aside at the end. And I think that was one of the genius moments of the film, that it went out on such a lovely, lifting, positive note. Are you surprised at how it stood the test of time, how Grease is still popular to this day? I have. I have been. But as I've said before, a lot of it has to do with technology because when it came out it was very popular made a lot of money and all that

but then you know the whole the tapes of bcr bits and all of that we can all remember those and so the fact that people could see it over and over again in their homes. And I've, you know, I still to this day, people, young women, you know, who saw it with their grandmothers. I mean, really, you know, amazing and what it meant to them. And that's so they didn't have to. Some people do go out to the theater and, you know, see it in the movie theater. But for a lot of people, it was part of their domestic life. Yeah. And what would be your enduring memories of Olivia then and working for her over that summer in 1978? Well, it was, well, first of all, it was summer. You know, it was summer. A lot of stuff was shot outside.

I remember the dance sequences in the gym and it was hot. It was steamy and we were also thrown in it together and I was always struck by her warmth her sunniness and I did say she was like summer she had warmth and grace and um the sunniness about her, which was genuine, as far as I could tell. You know, I mean, I think we all felt that way about her. Yeah. We've had some people getting in contact about this because, as you say, she was loved by so many. Someone has whatsapped us to say, I remember watching Olivia Newton-John in Greece when I was not even 10 years old. It was the first time I got swept up in a love story and fell in love with the film. It just seems like this is the type of film

and that scene in particular is the type of scene that took people's attention no matter what age they were, Stuckard. Yeah. Yeah, it was great. And the song is great. I mean, it's a perfect balance of a little bit of humor. But also she has a look on her face like you know screw you

which is you know because he broke her heart and now she is sort of getting her own back and you can see him just entranced by the whole thing i think that's what was mentioned earlier um and you know i i've had seen that clip last night reminded me of it all and it was uh it was a really you know joyful and hard-working and consumptive time and we all became a real company over those months and it was months it was like three months I think and Karen how rare is it for uh someone's character to stand the test of time in this way, particularly a female character? Well, it's when you're genuine. And from what Docard said, she was.

Olivia's character meshed with the character she was playing. And I think that that's when we really see performance that's indelible, that really lasts. And also getting the balance right with the script and the casting and the costume let's give well it's albert walsky yes with the 1950s vintage shark skin trousers from what i understand oh my goodness what are you noticing uh olivia about the types of audiences coming to watch yeah it all it all comes together anyway. That's what I meant to say. I think that's what makes a memory. But it's great to remember Olivia this way. And it's wonderful to hear that she was really like that. And still popular, Olivia, from when you're on

stage and you're noticing that the people that you're performing to, the audience, what kinds of people are coming in? It seems like a range of people have been touched by what Olivia Newton-John did yeah absolutely we've got you know you've got different generations people that were there when the movie came out you know they're bringing their grandchildren and friends are coming and you know it's um it really is open to everyone and it's it's so amazing to see, because I remember when I first watched the film and I have and I always say this, but it was my only CD that I had where I had the lyrics book in the cover and I would take it out and it got so tatty. Like I had this really small bit of sellotape that was just desperately trying to hold the book together. But I remember just it was the first time that I had felt that freedom of expression and singing and dancing in my room.

And and I think that's what audiences feel. They you know, they unfortunately they're in a theatre, so they do have to sit down. But I can see that everyone wants to get up and dance you can't help but feel joyful when you watch it and I think you know I think with a show um a story like Grease so many people can relate to so many different characters and I think that's why people cling on to it because they see themselves in it whether it's Sandy whether it's Rizzo whether it's Danny you know and I think that's why so many people can relate and that's why it's you know it's it's really it's it's Sandy, whether it's Rizzo, whether it's Danny, you know, and I think that's why so many people can relate. And that's why it's, you know, it's, it's really, it's, it's so loved. So yeah, I absolutely love doing it. It really is. Thank you all for sharing your experiences and paying tribute this morning. Stockard Channing, Karen Krasanovic and Olivia Moore, paying tribute to Olivia Newton-John, who has passed away at the age of 73.

Now, after leading England women to Euros victory, the captain of the Lionesses, Leah Williamson, will be the captain of Women's Hour for a very special programme this coming Thursday. Leah will be joining me for an exclusive chat, talking about some of the issues close to her heart. Some of them might even just surprise you. But we also want to hear from you as well. Do you have a future lioness who would like to ask Leah a question?

You can ask her about her pre-match rituals or maybe her favourite song to get ready to for a game or maybe what it's like growing up as an Arsenal player when your dad supports Spurs. We're on WhatsApp, so you can send us a voice note. The number is 03700100444. You can text us or tweet us too, but it would be really good if we could hear your voices. So send in those voice notes. That number again is 03700100444. Do remember, though, that data charges may apply.

Now, as you know, we always want to hear your stories on Woman's Hour, talk about the things that don't get talked about elsewhere. In 2019, we asked you, have you had an abortion? How did you feel about it then? And how do you feel about it now? Well, the response was huge. It was powerful and varied. And what became clear was that there were lots of women who have had abortions and feel unable to talk about it. Since Roe versus Wade was overturned in June in the United States, more women are telling their stories, but secrecy and shame still surrounds abortion. These stories from you, our listeners, were first broadcast in 2019, and the terminology might have changed a bit, but the issues are more relevant than ever.

In the last of the series we hear from a woman we're calling Kerry who had an abortion 13 years ago when she was in an unhappy relationship. She told our reporter Henrietta Harrison how she found out she was pregnant. It was in early January so I'd just turned 18 so maybe a week after I'd turned 18 I realised that I was late I was maybe only a couple of weeks late but I remember being feeling very different in my body which sounds

like very like stereotypical but I felt nauseous I felt my boobs were incredibly sore just symptoms I'd never had before with a period or a way I never felt in general my first thought that came to mind was I'd had like a quite a bad um food poisoning a couple of weeks previously and I was on the pill but we weren't using any other contraception and then I think when I did the test that's when I realized okay yeah that's probably I've taken the pill I've had a poorly stomach and it's probably it's probably had the same effect as it would do if you were sick but obviously in your mind you don't you don't make that same connection so you had this sense that you were pregnant when was that confirmed I walked home via the shops and I picked up a pregnancy test and I remember going

into the toilet no one was in the house and my mum and dad were out my sisters were at school and I stood in the kitchen waiting for the test to like develop and in my other hand I had the telephone ready to call the doctors because I felt so certain number one that I was pregnant and number two that if I were pregnant the first thing I was going to do was call the doctors and get an abortion like I was there's no doubt in my mind that that was exactly what was going to happen you were young you were a girl just becoming an adult really what were your feelings then I was distressed that the situation had arisen but I wasn't distressed about the element of choice like I felt very very sure about that there wasn choice. Like I felt very, very sure about that.

There wasn't anything that I felt kind of conflicted about. So I felt kind of very strong, which like looking back now, a decade later, I'm kind of amazed that I'm not going to say I felt like weak or afraid or anything like that. I felt very strong. I felt very determined. I was on my own with this, but I had everything I needed within me to handle it. You found out you were pregnant with the phone in your hand so just tell me what happened next I kind of carried on as normal then obviously didn't tell anybody in my family I didn't tell the the father of the child I didn't tell anybody what happened because I just felt that I didn't want anybody else's opinion on this I knew what I wanted and I felt like I knew how other people would handle it the person I was in a

relationship with at the time I felt was particularly manipulative it felt like it was your decision to make yeah and I didn't want to conflate that with other people's ideas I didn't want to feel like I was going to be made to feel bad for not being uncertain so what happened you'd called the doctor how did the procedure come about yeah so I went for the first appointment at my local hospital so I went there I was interviewed I say interviewed which says everything really doesn't it but I was the appointment was with a male doctor and a female nurse and the male doctor was incredibly aggressive with what felt like a line of

questioning you know around why did I not want the child how certain was either I didn't want to have a baby had I spoken to anybody else why hadn't I spoken to anybody else would I consider speaking to somebody else you know they seemed to ramp up and they were very fast and I felt kind of almost out of breath in my responses and he kept asking me how do you feel how do you feel and at this point I kind of broke down and just said I feel very sad I feel very sad but actually I'm not sure I did feel very sad I felt very sad at this situation where I kind of felt like I was being almost pursued and for kind of not for deciding not to go ahead with this in hindsight I think potentially he was trying to get me to engage and to acknowledge my decision and perhaps if I'm sat there and I'm kind of a little bit

glazed over and I'm not saying specifically how I'm feeling if I am saying I feel like I'm going to university in six months and so I need to focus on that perhaps what he was trying to get me to do was fully acknowledge the gravity of the decision and to make sure that I knew my own mind enough to make that choice but on the other hand like being the adult sure that I knew my own mind enough to make that choice but on the other hand like being the adult feminist that I am I just wonder if perhaps there was an element of him that was uncomfortable with me just saying I don't feel sad and I don't feel conflicted I feel certain that this is what I want to do and I don't feel that I'll regret it I definitely knew what I wanted to do as firmly as when I believe a woman falls pregnant and knows

she wants to continue with that pregnancy and knows that there is no way she could end it that is how sure I was so you had your appointment the interview as you called it with the doctor then what happened so then I was given the first tablet which would begin the process basically of like a forced miscarriage that happened there and then yeah there and then I was given the first tablet so we had the questions I cried and said that I was felt sad and then he gave me the first tablet so it was quite quite fast really and this was on the Thursday and so I was booked in for the second tablet I'm at to a hospital further away for the Saturday morning so I had 48 hours for that to kind of

like kick in start the process so I went back home yeah and I was working at the time at like a fast food restaurant so I was in a situation where I was um kind of continuing my shift so I had a Friday night shift and I had a Saturday night shift which I intended to do after my abortion I kind of didn't want anybody to know. So I tried to continue as normal as possible. But on the on the Friday morning, I started to bleed quite heavily. So I think that was like a sign of things happening. It was just basically like a heavy period. It wasn't so much that I was like super concerned. But there was kind of a sense that your body is processing the pill and it's kind of it's beginning to happen so that kind of felt oddly reassuring that what I had

wanted was already happening because I had extreme like morning sickness already which is very strange to me like I never thought that you would have symptoms of pregnancy so early on but like the smell of caffeine I just could vomit it was unbelievable and in the morning I felt very very sick which is just strange how many weeks pregnant were you I think I was about six weeks when I had the abortion long enough for them to know that that I was pregnant and stuff but still so early on really when you think about it so you you were doing the the shift at the fast food restaurant you started yeah to bleed yeah I was very upset I was distressed I went home early I don't think I had thought that there would be any kind of physical because I knew I wasn't gonna have to have an operation you see so in my head

this kind of this process was going to be a lot like taking the contraceptive pill you know something that happened within my body as I went about my everyday life like a period so I think that's when I started to realize that it was going to be more than that and that I had to be a bit aware of that you went home you finished the shift by this point your partner knew. Yeah. What what happened then? When he had rang me and we'd had that conversation I said to him I'm going in on Saturday morning which was the next morning to a hospital which was in the nearest city and he said he would come with me so I didn't argue with him on this again an element of fear that he would come

anyway that he would tell my family and I think maybe a sense as well that I was still as you are when you're in an abusive relationship hoping that there was going to be a time when things would change potentially this would be the time that he showed himself to be genuinely caring it's that kind of the duality of being in a relationship with someone that is really quite harmful to you where you on the one hand know that they are not good for you and want to get away from that and on the other hand feel that you deserve that behavior and therefore you need to try and change so that they will change so he came with me on the Saturday morning and I can remember trying to scrape together the money for the bus fare to get to the hospital

and thinking to myself for the first time in my life of women in countries where they could not easily access abortion that if I were in a situation where I was struggling to make that money how would I have handled things to this day I feel certain that there's nothing I wouldn't have done to make that happen like stealing money like anything I would have had to have done to make that happen I would have so I remember feeling immensely lucky that this was even an option for me so we got the bus in really early I told my parents that I had a training day for the job that I worked at and luckily they didn't ask me any other questions which was good they gave me the second pill and I was with maybe seven or eight other women.

We were all sat in a circle. There were like little curtains between us, but it wasn't separate rooms. It was like one room. You could kind of see people if you leant back in your chair. Everybody seemed, which is probably what they would say about me, very together. We went in about 6am. We had to be in very, very early. And they said we would all

be gone by midday at midday everybody had left I was still there the second tablet was just not working they asked me to run up and down stairs and do star jumps move around to try and like help basically bring on the miscarriage I remember thinking it was almost like comical that kind of black humor of me being in this stressful situation at such a young age with someone who was in my mind so horrible doing star doing star jumps like running up the stairs like rocky just waiting for something to happen but obviously I was feeling increasingly anxious about the fact that I was supposed to be at this place for a certain amount of time my parents were now aware that I was not home when I was feeling increasingly anxious about the fact that I was supposed to be at this place for a certain amount of time my parents were now aware that I was not home when I was supposed to be home and I was supposed to still be on shift that evening so all these things were just kind of

so it got to maybe 4 p.m and they took me in and just said we're going to basically try and examine you now to see where you're at with this because your body is it's not reacting the way it would normally and they basically had to forcibly take the fetus out of my body the invasiveness of it I wasn't expecting when you go for surgery perhaps you know that that's going to be happening and I'm at such a young age that's never happened to me before I've never had a smear test you know at this point I'd slept with two men in my life so it's more kind of invasiveness than I was prepared for and when the nurse took the fetus out she put it in like a little dish and said to me would you like to look at it I just remember thinking that's such a bizarre question for me right now and I said no

I would not like to do that almost again like someone's trying to get me to feel very, very upset. And I still don't know to this day how much of that is genuine concern that is this person really aware of what's happening? You know, does she know that she's ending the possibility of life? And does she know that now, obviously, that it's been carried out that the foetus is gone? You know, are they trying to tell me that or are they trying to constantly say to me you should feel sad you should feel sad I felt just very overwhelmed by that but I did feel immensely relieved when I knew that that was over I had the pressure of

everybody wanting to know where I was my boss wanted to know why I hadn't come in for my shift my mum wanted to know where I was I actually messaged my boss and said to her I wouldn't be in because I was in hospital and bearing in mind I was 18 at this time she rang my mother and told her said she's in hospital and she won't be in today so that was I mean probably illegal because she can't when I'm over the age of 18 disclose that kind of information to my parents but that then meant that my mum and my stepdad were aware of the fact that I had said that so I kind of got back to my hometown that evening and or the whole family are you know waiting for me wanting to know what happened so I'm at this point where

I've had such a long emotionally overwhelming day and I now have to deal with all of this there's one here of my mum when she was pregnant with me it's cute isn't it yeah so that's the first picture of me that's in there which is me when I was in the in the belly so how old was your mum there then? 19. Yeah, very, very young. There we are. But did you think, when you were deciding to have your abortion at 18,

were you actually then thinking about your mum at 19? Yes. Or was that a connection you made later? No, no, no, I made that connection at that time. I felt that history was repeating itself. When my mum had me, was 19 she hadn't been with her my biological father very long and he was very tempestuous you know violence gambling drinking he's not in my life anymore but I could see history repeating itself definitely you know

I could see myself in a relationship with someone who was almost a mirror image of the biological father that I'd never grown up with. But everything that I had heard about him from my family and from his family was there. Had I been in a similar way to my mother was tied to my father, had I been tied to this guy forever, I don't think I would have ever felt totally free obviously pro-life campaigners would say that the unborn child yeah has rights I mean do you have any sense that you ended a life no I think I ended the possibility of life that's how I felt there was the possibility that something was going to happen but it didn't I think you just have to prioritise the life that is here, that is established and that is right in front of you. The reporter there was Henrietta Harrison.

All of those stories in the series are available right now on BBC Sounds and we'll also tweet out a link to an article about the series. I have to say thanks to everyone for getting in touch. I did ask you about your memories of Olivia Newton-John, who has passed away. And Julia has messaged in to say, RIP, beautiful Olivia. I remember her as a young woman. And these memories comfort me with the strange, confront me, sorry, with the strange fact that I'm over 70. Olivia, a little bit of my youth has gone with you.

R.I.P. Also, we've had someone WhatsApp in to say I was at university at the time and we all rushed out to try and buy the pants that we obviously saw in Greece. Being late 70s and pre-internet, shops were all we had. I couldn't get black, but I got a gold pair and still have them, although I doubt they would fit now. Thank you, Jacqueline, for that message. Do continue to get in touch with us. You can WhatsApp us, as I mentioned, 03700100444, or the text number is 84844. And speaking about people getting in touch, Listener's Week is coming up. There's still a few slots left. Maybe you're starting a career, moving your life in a new direction, navigating a complicated relationship,

or perhaps you care passionately about a particular social issue. If so, let us know. You can get in touch via our website at bbc.co.uk forward slash women's hour, or you can WhatsApp or text. And on social media, it's at slash Women's Hour, or you can WhatsApp or text. And on social media, it's at BBC Women's Hour. Now, what's it like to live with a chronic but hidden illness?

Well, that's the experience of our next two guests. Poppy Nash is a textile artist drawing on a long tradition of female storytelling through textiles. Poppy lives with type 1 diabetes, and one of her latest works is The Art of Dying 2.0. It's a full-scale installation of bedclothes and bedding, examining the experience of living in isolation as a vulnerable person through the pandemic. Also, Ione Gamble lives with Crohn's disease. She's the founder and editor of the art,

fashion and culture publication Polyester and has now written a book, Poor Little Sick Girls. Both of them are with me this morning. Good morning to you both. How are you? Good. How are you? Yeah, I'm very well. I'm very well. Ione, I'd like to start with you because when you were first diagnosed with Crohn's disease, how did your life change? I was diagnosed when I was 19, so it was a time of change anyway I was in my second term of university and I was kind of rushed into hospital to begin treatment because it had gotten quite severe by that point and it was kind of just like this total realignment of what my life might look like it felt like this big thing that I couldn't quite yet comprehend

and also I just didn't even know chronic illness was a thing like awareness was much worse and at that point I thought your condition would either be terminal or you'd get better there wasn't really much like conversation around this in-between phase so I would describe it as this real kind of like realignment of expectations of what I could do. But not in a negative way. Like, I think it really did give me the motivation to do whatever I wanted, to not make the best of it, but to be confident and to do all of the things I wanted to do because I wasn't going to kind of like sink into this condition I was given,

if that makes sense. Okay and for you Poppy your type 1 diabetes diagnosis was much earlier in life wasn't it? Hi hi both um yeah so I was diagnosed when I was six which is like pretty small and young um but uh prior to that kind of had quite a lot of health issues I spent a lot of time in hospital before that um but I think it's I think it's interesting that you've got us both here like Iona being diagnosed like teenager and me being diagnosed as child because I feel very much like when I was diagnosed it was kind of the weight wasn't really on my shoulders. It was kind of like on my family, like my mom mainly, kind of.

So then I had, although I was diabetic that whole time, and the medication was like so different back then about, because that was like 25 years ago. And then kind of I had my own like re-diagnosis, reawakening kind of moment when I was about 19 as well. Being like, oh, right, this is the thing that I have to deal with forever now as an adult. And seeing actually how it did impact me and how my life and my body was basically different to like my friends and other people yeah so give us an idea of what it is like day to day when you're living and and managing a chronic

condition well it's just constant all the time but I think it's also funny how you can kind of like I think people's resilience is like really powerful and you kind of get used to things like even like having hypos which is like a low sugar um it's like it's really intense like wacky thing to happen to your body but you kind of get used to them and like um yeah you just got to deal with loads of things. But one of the other things that I think is interesting is like when you're diagnosed, you think, oh, I've got this health condition or this disability or chronic illness or whatever you want to call it. And then there's like this much larger circle of things that also are now part of your life. So it's like the health care healthcare system it's like the way that

society treats you or like all these other things like even getting prescriptions and stuff so it's so it's yes you have the chronic illness which affects your body and how you feel but then it's also like this big life shift of like how you basically arrange yourself in society yeah and I only you're you're sitting across from me in the studio nodding your head along to that and one of one of the things that you wrote in in the book there was about internalized ableism and you said in the book that that ensured I never spoke more than a whisper about what I was going through so you can relate to what Poppy's saying there yeah I think it kind of has boomerang for me a lot so when I was first diagnosed I didn't really I hadn't experienced ableism obviously I hadn't like

I had it in my life in a secondhand sense either so I was kind of very upfront trying to just say it how it was to everyone I'm quite like a outspoken person anyway I suppose and then I was kind of very upfront trying to just say it how it was to everyone I'm quite like a outspoken person anyway I suppose and then I was getting these reactions from people that were less than ideal that were kind of like maybe even fear or like I could just sense people pulling away from me as well or people actively did so then I became a lot quieter about it and then I entered kind of like the world of work um as like a graduate and realized that people with chronic illnesses and disabilities are just absolutely not tolerated in like structured workplaces and I found it very difficult to kind of assimilate

into that environment as someone with chronic fatigue and like other symptoms so that's when I kind of felt at my most kind of quiet and that I couldn't really be loud about this. And I kept it out of like my work, all of these things. And it's only really now with this book and like a few articles that I've written that I am talking about it. But I think it's really important too, because so many of us live with these conditions that feel like they can't say anything and that don't have their workplaces accommodated for them don't have like friends or family that understand when really like chronic illness and disability intersects with like all areas of social justice and we need to consider it as such and poppy you've also spoken about the fact that the pertinent point that the the

illness that you're dealing with is invisible and how does that come into play I mean are there benefits to it not being seen by people in the wider world well I think kind of harking back to what Onis said as well like the thing is you can't see it and like I think also with the internalised ableism and just outright ableism, like, people have got a big kind of issue with language. So, like, using the word disabled or disability is, like, people kind of do this, like, very thing, like, oh, they're, like, a certain group of people or something like this and then I think people have got more questions or like skepticism maybe about people who have invisible disabilities or chronic illnesses that they're not kind of seen in the same way so like I think like what I'm saying is like it's part of identity so because

you can't see it the way that you can kind of communicate um your chronic illness is through conversation or through people who live very very close to you so those are the people who are going to understand your illness the best because they see it the most or unless you buy a lot does that make sense yeah i think i think it does and so carry on yeah yeah so i just think there's like also there's like you know there's pros and cons like the pros are also that you don't have to deal with it someone can't see it so they don't give that to you as part of your identity immediately because it you know you can choose pick and choose when you disclose it or not and in a lot of times because of the way our society is built and also like Iona's saying in the workplace it just is it

becomes so much easier sometimes to keep it to yourself yeah and there's always like this kind of debate going on where you're like uh is this sometimes I should bring this up or then there's also a lot of guilt about kind of making it into a thing yeah did you find that as well Ione how was your support network what did the people say around you was it a help yeah I think um I'm I have a great support network but I think because of how illness is still so misunderstood by our society I write in the book about how you know advice can often be well-meaning but damaging and how you know at the hospital for example nurses might say oh you're too young to be here thinking it as comfort but really it sends me

into a spiral or like different things like friends or whatever offering different foods that they think will cure migraines disease when obviously it won't and this is because we don't really have the language to talk about illness and we're also obsessed with wellness we're so obsessed with being our optimum selves through health now and obviously we've come out of a severe, you know, health anxiety inducing phase of the world. So it's understandable. But I think we should kind of try and approach these things with like empathy, not cure, because for a lot of people,

that's just not possible. And it's about management. And it's about, you know, being happy, not being healthy all the time. Poppy, tell me about the installation you made during the pandemic, The Art of Dying 2.0. So that also came out of the pandemic as being a vulnerable patient. I always like to do my speech quotations with vulnerable.

So I started that project with a research residency I was doing at the welcome collection and kind of looking at the bed and bedding because I found this manuscript pre-1500 manuscript called the Ars Moriendi which actually translate as the art of dying um and it had these like beautiful woodcuts of this of this man lying in bed and like different chapters had him surrounded by different things so different demons or different like worldly things or different saints and I just immediately like as soon as I saw him kind of like fell in love with him like I just saw him lying in bed and I just felt so connected to him as um as an image and I kind of recreated that book into a bedspread so it was kind of like the female

version of the book so I reprinted the pages onto the bedspread um and then the pandemic came so the next thing that happened was it was kind of like the entrapment and like loathing and love and refuge and imprisonment of a bed as someone with a chronic illness became like kind of with the art of dying 2.0, the idea and the concept was about like blowing up the bed and basically the entire interior space of the flat in which I was shielding, soft shielding. Yeah. Became all the same ideas as the entrapment of just the bed in daily life. It sounds extraordinary. And I've actually seen a picture and it is just that. Poppy, thank you so much for sharing your experiences

with us this morning. And thank you as well to Ione Campbell for coming into the studio. Great to hear from you both. Now, Heather Small has been one of the most distinctive voices in music. She was the voice of group M People and they became one of the biggest

dance acts in the world, selling tens of millions of albums worldwide. They also won plenty of Brit Awards and a Mercury Award along the way. Heather has now released her first album in 16 years. It's called Colour My Life, teaming up with the London Metropolitan Orchestra. And she's imagined all of her top 10 hits as well as some new music and some covers as well. If you don't quite remember her name you'll definitely remember this voice. I'm so excited to have Heather Small with us live in the studio. You saw me nodding my

head shimmying my shoulders along. How are you? I'm well I'm well and you? Great. That music it doesn't matter what kind of day you're having i find i listen to your songs with your uplifting lyrics and i just immediately feel better thank you thank you we we try we try i think that um you know music has been such a soundtrack for everyone's lives in the last few, it's been very difficult. And we have really leaned on our creatives, from writers to music makers to dancers, to help us through that time. So when I had the opportunity to do this album,

I thought to myself, yes, it makes sense, because if I could do it with an orchestra, if I could bring a different flavour, I've been singing them for a long time, but I know that I do certain things live a little bit different and that I could feel it again and that it would reinforce the fact that, yeah, I sing and I will always sing because the past two years, those two years, but it was difficult. And you start wondering, you know, can I still sing? Will there be an audience, you know,

will people come back out to support us creatives?? I have to say, you know, in lockdown, we supported them. And outside of lockdown, they are now supporting us. And it's been really appreciated. Well, congratulations, because as you say, it is your first album for 16 years. Why such the long gap? I don't know, really. I think if you haven't got anything to say, then you don't say anything. So I and as well, I've become a mother in that in that time or earlier, but my son is now 25. But I always sung and I did a lot of live work.

But I also wanted to be at home with my son and and see him develop and grow and also make sure that he develops and grows in a way that I wanted and that I would always recognize who my son is and he would always recognize who his mother is. I think it's a really, really important job if you take it on. But it's been, I say job, but it's been just the making of me. Really? Well, there's new tracks as well, as well as all the classics being reimagined. You've written new tracks. How hard was it to go back into songwriting after such a long break? Do you know somebody wrote that song for me?

Yes, Love Me or Not. Which is Excited. Love Me or Not. Oh, Love Me or Not. Yeah, Love Me or Not. So that was the new single, the first single. Excited is the second single. And that is one that has, as you would say, been reimagined with an orchestra.

But I didn't write the new songs. But the thing is, writing a song and finding a song, what you have to do is make sure that you own that song. So people did submit things that they thought that would be me. But when I heard this song, I knew that it was written for me. You know, it is uplifting, but it's about self-empowerment and not at the detriment of others. So that's what I'm about. And that's why I still am able to sing those songs with such passion

because they are me, you know, and I've left some of myself in every song. So to go back to them, it's just like picking them up and cuddling them all again and giving them some extra love. Let's hear it.'s hear quite passionate i can tell your eyes are lighting up as you're telling me this okay let's hear a clip of your new single

excited it's the voice heather it It's that distinct, iconic voice. I'm assuming that's something you were born with or have you nurtured it over the years? I've always had a sound. When I first started, I had a sound and that's what got me into my first band. But I didn't have any technique. So people liked the sound of my voice. And at first I wouldn't go to any vocal coaches because I didn't want anyone to change the sound of my voice. Yes, yes. So when I really felt embedded in my own sound, then I had some lessons to then bring me up to speed technically.

But when you hear excited and you say the sound, and I think the first excited, first time around, it's like when a girl of of 18 loves you but you know the second time around with excited it's like when a woman in her 50s loves you so it's not that it it's not any less but there's there's a there's there's just a bit of a bit more richness it's just a bit more under those it's just more more levels more substance so you know love is love is love. But, you know, a lot of us, who we loved at 18 and who we love at 50, it's changed. Are you aware then of the kind of impact you're having on people's lives?

Because it's multiple generations that are aware of your music now and that are appreciating it. You know, I'm aware when I do it live. When I've done these festivals festivals there's been generations so it's from grandparents to grandchildren come along and uh there was one woman she had a daughter on her shoulders the daughter must have been like eight and she was singing all the songs and i keep saying you know these children have been force-fed i'm so happy because i think to myself you know by the time they're 20. And I mean, it's not some live music.

I love singing. I love singing. I love singing to an audience. So that there's a perpetual audience, it would seem, you know, makes me happy. And it's not just the fans. You've had quite a few celebrities and high profile people quoting your songs, even Prime Minister Boris Johnson, Heather. Yes. Although he hasn't got much time in office. I I mean that was quite surreal, it has to be said

but what can I say about that you know, people are left to their own devices you choose what you want to listen to and obviously he's listened to some in people's stuff it hasn't helped him much though has it well, no probably a discussion for

another time. You were shy as a child. I was. Yet you chose to perform in front of thousands of people. Did music help your confidence? You know what it is? I think that there's lots of people. You know, it's the whole thing.

You talk about like Olivia Newton-John's character. There's layers to you that people don't see. And sometimes you express those layers through creativity so my layers are expressed vocally some people they put pen to paper some people it's painting some people it's dance and you show people that there's more to you than they're actually seeing on the surface and so that was the way that I revealed my personality but with with the shyness I think as well I didn't really trust people with my thoughts and ambitions and sometimes you think you'll be ridiculed and sometimes you just think you'll be somebody's amusement and especially if

you like I've always wanted to sing and my endeavor was really really true to me and i didn't want anybody to think that they could put me off my path and a few people that i did tell you know did did ridicule me so i kept my own counsel you've had an incredible career i for one have really enjoyed listening to you over the years and so have so many generations of fans thank you so much heather small for coming into the years and so have so many generations of fans. Thank you so much, Heather Small, for coming into the studio. And I know you'll be performing live on the 18th of September for Radio 2 Live, which would be a fantastic occasion, I'm sure. Thank you so much for coming on to Woman's Hour. Thank you to everyone who listened and got in touch as well.

And that's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.