Woman's Hour - British Gymnastics and safeguarding, Long-distance friendships, Myha’la, Hunters, Hockey kits

Episode Date: November 29, 2023

Last year's landmark Whyte Review into gymnastics detailed 'systemic issues' of physical and emotional abuse between 2008 and 2020. Today, British Gymnastics has for the first time introduced safeguarding policies relating to weighing, hydration and academic education, which they say are designed to better protect the welfare of gymnasts, but do they go far enough? Clare speaks to David Hart, performance director for British Gymnastics, Karen Whelan, gymnastics coach and mother of two-time British Olympian Hannah Whelan, and Eloise Jotischky, former elite gymnast and trustee and the youth voice on the Gymnasts for Change board and the first (and currently only) person to win a civil case against British Gymnastics for the abuse she experienced in the sport.The actor Myha'la joins Clare to discuss her latest project starring alongside Julia Roberts and Mahershala Ali in the film Leave the World Behind. It's an apocalyptic thriller which sees Julia Roberts's character Amanda rent a luxury house in the countryside with her family. They're disturbed by Ruth, played by Myha'la, and her father who claim they own the house and need a place to stay following a mysterious cyber attack. Team GB hockey player Tess Howard campaigned for women to be able to choose whether they play in shorts or the traditional skort for their matches, resulting in official changes to the sport’s kit regulations. She’s been awarded Changemaker of the Year at the Sunday Times Sportswomen awards for her work. How do you keep long-distance friendships going? Clare talks to film maker Shannon Haly, who lives in New York and wrote a viral poem about missing her best friend. They are joined by the journalist Rose Stokes who, after having an 18-year long-distance friendship decided to move to live in the same city as her friend. It's long been claimed that in prehistoric times, women were gatherers while men were hunters. However, new research debunks this narrative and suggests that women were actually superior to men when it comes to hunting. Clare spoke to Dr Annamieke Milks, a palaeolithic archaeologist from the University of Reading who is an expert in hunting and weapons.Presenter Clare McDonnell Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Claire Macdonald and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. New rules, as we've just been hearing, that gymnastic clubs will have to follow come in today. It follows a landmark review highlighting systemic issues of physical and emotional abuse. So from now on children under 12 won't be allowed to train during school hours, coaches are banned from weighing gymnasts and drinks breaks will be mandated. Question is when we are talking about children why haven't these measures been brought in before now? We'll also discuss long-distance female friendships and hear

from a woman who missed her best friend so much she moved her entire family to the town where she lives. Her reasoning? Well, you move for jobs, for family, why not friends? So do tell me this morning what lengths you have gone to to keep in touch with your closest friend. You can text the programme on 84844. Texts will be charged at your standard message rate. We're on social media at BBC Woman's Hour and you can email us through the website. You can send us a WhatsApp message or voice note too using the number 03700 100 444. Data charges may apply depending on your provider

so you might want to use Wi-Fi if you can. And terms and conditions can be found on our website. On the programme today we'll also hook up a Team GB hockey player Tess Howard live from Buenos Aires Tess has been awarded Changemaker of the Year at the Sunday Times Sportswomen Awards for

campaigning for official changes to the sports kit regulations female players now have more freedom to choose what they wear on the pitch. Tess will explain why she believes these changes are not just about body image, but class too. And star of Netflix blockbuster

Leave the World Behind, Mahala joins me live in the studio. Now she stars alongside Julia Roberts, Ethan Hawke and Mahashala Ali in this apocalyptic thriller. Mahershala Ali was obviously impressed with her, saying she's so at ease and comfortable in her skin. And it's good to be around people like that. Praise indeed. And also why in prehistoric times it was women and not just men who were both into hunting and gathering and in some instances better at it.

All coming up over the next hour. Delighted to have your company. But let's start with that gymnastics review. Because we had the last year's landmark white review into gymnastics. And it detailed systemic issues of physical and emotional abuse between 2008 and 2020. The review examined over 400 complaints and uncovered an unacceptable culture which has left countless young people humiliated, shamed and permanently psychologically or physically damaged by plans to reform the sport, it's published a banned list of coaches and members and it's doubled its spending on welfare to about one million a year. But since 2020, there have been a say are designed to better protect the welfare of gymnasts. Do they go far enough? That's the question. I'm joined by David Hart, Performance

Director of British Gymnastics, Karen Whelan, Gymnastics Coach and mother of two-time British Olympian Hannah Whelan, and also in the studio Eloise Jutischke, former elite gymnast and trustee of the Youth Voice on the Gymnasts for Change board and the first and currently only person to win a civil case against British Gymnastics for the abuse she experienced in the sport. Welcome all of you. Thank you. Hi. It's great. David, let's start with you. We'll get into the specifics of the policies. But following, you know, we're a year and a half on from the White Review. Many people listening to this will say, why has it taken so long for changes to come in when we're talking about children? Yeah, well, look, sport in the United Kingdom is changing.

Gymnastics wants to be part of ensuring that sport in our country is something that we can all be proud of. Gymnastics has so many physical and mental health benefits that includes winning. And we know, but that's only part of it. Why we've not made changes to make our sport a safer place sooner, I think is a question that I would ask of us and of sport in this country why have we not prioritised the wellbeing of our people? Children, they are children aren't they? Because you wouldn't, for example in schools you wouldn't have such kind of well, guidelines, you have rules, you stick to them because children need protecting it's been a massive failure hasn't it? I think it has, I think we've had to acknowledge that and we're

now trying our very best to put things in place to ensure that the stories of the past don't resurface because it's not where we want to be. Let's talk then about some of the specifics and we'll get Karen and Eloise's reaction to them. Let's start with weighing because the White Review found many people reported excessive weight management. They described the tyranny of the scales coaches publicly shaming young girls over their weight. So what's changing on weighing? Well, I think firstly we're prioritising the choice of the young person, the child that we're talking about.

It should be their choice if they're weighed or not. And the fundamental change that I think we're making is that coaches are no longer allowed to weigh gymnasts. And there has to be a variety of consent mechanisms that the individual child has the option to withdraw at any point. When it comes to the way, and I think there's been a misconception, the importance of the number on the scales is almost irrelevant. It has to be viewed in the context of supporting growth and maturation

to preserve the health of the child that we're talking about or it needs to be used as a means of calculating strength and conditioning methods it should never be used in isolation it should never be used to to judge the aesthetic of the young person and that that's the shift that we're making fundamentally it's empowered choice of the individual that we're talking about we'll go through the changes and then and then ask really about how you're going to enforce them. Water breaks as well. What changes there? This might sound obvious to people outside of the sport, outside of sport, but our young people, our children,

need to be able to drink as and when they feel the need to. They need to be able to access a toilet as and when they feel the need to. This hasn't been common practice in all cases historically. And that's why we've had to draw a line with that one to say moving forward, this is the way it absolutely has to be. OK, so that's mandated. And taking children out of school to train, what's changed on that front? Well, we do not believe at British Gymnastics that a child has to miss any form of academic education in order to pursue their dreams, whether they are elite level dreams or otherwise. School and education has to be of paramount importance.

And we are going to mandate that missing school cannot be a condition of anyone's gymnastics experience. Clubs and coaches must not schedule sessions during formal education time for children under the age of 12, of primary school age. And in exceptional circumstances where someone over the age of 12 is permitted to miss school, it must be decided by the school, not the club. And I think the priority there is that we never compromise academic education. We don't need to be a sport that's associated with that.

We don't think it's a requirement. Okay, so before it was guidelines, now it's rules. How do you enforce them when you're talking about a situation where very often coaches and gymnasts are away from the public eye? This is things that are happening behind closed doors. What changes on that front? So all of these specific policies are components of our broader safeguarding policy. So we would consider any breach of these rules

to be a breach of our British Gymnastics safeguarding policy. And they'd be therefore subject to safeguarding inquiries as per the broader safeguarding piece of work. I think fundamentally, we need to be aware that we're an organisation with 400,000 members. And relative to that, we're a fairly small staff compared to the population that we're working with. And what we're looking to do really is inform our members and empower our members to make the right decisions within their clubs so that people can make better decisions on the ground. The truth is, are we there to police? No, but we're certainly there to support with safeguarding sanctions if breaches in these conditions are reported to us.

But you are there to protect, aren't you? And that's a very serious job you've been tasked with when it comes to the safeguarding of children. We know that since 2020, there have been over 1300 concerns raised in relation to welfare and safety. So the White Review went up to from 2008 to 2020. So since that point, 1300 concerns, there are 100 formal complaints currently being dealt with by the independent complaints process. And there are concerns that you're not dealing with complaints quickly enough. And that is right now, before you've brought in these new rules what confidence can anyone have listening to this that you have a system fit for purpose well all i can say on that one is that we absolutely share

the frustration on the backlog of cases that the people experiencing the delay whether they are that the people making the complaints or the people or the people receiving the delay, whether they are the people making the complaints or the people receiving the complaints, it's taking too long. We're putting in measures. We have a new director of safeguarding who is pioneering new methods within the sport. She'd be a great person to bring on to your show, actually, to tell you a little bit more about that. But I know that our safeguarding team are doing what they can in in but in the world that i'm in we're trying to move things forward in terms of creating policies and creating a real a framework for co-production between gymnasts and coaches that it's a shared experience and

we're moving away from that hierarchical approach that's previously but does that mean you're investing more money in it because surely that is what if we already have a backlog and you're bringing in new rules um your caseload will go up. So what's the investment here? Without being able to quote a figure, we've increased the staff. We have increased the financial resource put towards it. And fundamentally, we're moving towards collaborating with the broader stakeholder group, other sports, with UK Sport, with Sport England, to help us get to where we need to be. Because, look, it's a massive challenge we're facing

and we're having to face it in real time. Okay, I'm going to bring in two people who are very interested in what you've had to say. Karen Whelan, gymnastics coach, mother of two-time British Olympian as well and Eloise Jotischki, formerly gymnast, trustee of the Youth Voice on the Gymnast Board for Change.

Karen, let's start with you. Your daughter's a very successful gymnast. You're a coach yourself. What do you make of what David's had to say? Well, thank you for having me on the programme, first of all. I'm really, really pleased with the changes that British Gymnastics are bringing in. It's a very welcome shift from where we have been historically.

I would have liked to have seen the age for education be higher than 12. But obviously, I understand then if there's special circumstances that will help to cover that age group from 12 to 16. The weighing policy, I am also very pleased that coaches are now not being allowed to weigh gymnasts. As David said, weighing historically has been used in isolation, which is obviously not appropriate, And the coaches aren't really or weren't really qualified to interpret the results of those. And then, obviously, aesthetics also was a huge part of it. And this is what's caused so many problems in the past.

So, yeah, I'm really, really happy that British Gymnastics, I mean, it's been slow, but I'm really happy that they've made these changes. On the scales issue, the weighing issue, you don't have scales in your gym at all, do you? Why did you decide against that? Well, partly due to our experience of being in the other gym and my daughter's experience but again as I said we just don't believe that we are qualified to interpret the results of that and then there are so many other measures with sports science such as you know bone density dexascans all that kind of thing which which you know work together to um to decide why why are we

appropriately weighing the weighing is is for um you know protecting from injury so that you can see if they're growing but it has to be done with with height and with all the other uh measures uh that can be interpreted and and that needs to be a specialist. Yeah, and it can't just be a figure, can it? Because that in many senses is just meaningless. I just wanted to talk to you about taking gymnasts out of school. You say that the age should be higher. It shouldn't be fine once you're 12 you can come out.

But, I mean, isn't there an argument as well for competitive training that in some cases it might be quite difficult and also maybe affect the business model of gyms as well? If those gymnasts aren't taken out and aren't given the extra training at those times, they may miss schoolwork. But in some ways, is that not a sacrifice that you make when you want to be an elite athlete? I think it certainly has been a sacrifice that many elite athletes have taken on and but I think the advances in in sports science now have shown us that we can we can train gymnasts in a much more effective way in in less hours and yeah it shouldn't gymnasts shouldn't be being brought out of school to fit the logistics of a club schedule or program you know it should be it

should be what is correct for the gymnast and i do accept that there are um some exceptional talented gymnasts who may need to do an odd you know of school in order to achieve their very high level goals. But I think what's been happening and it's evolved slowly over the last sort of 10 to 15 years is that clubs have just been deciding to bring many gymnasts out of school just to do gymnastics training when actually they're not in that position of of being those exceptional few so we have this written down that their rules now they're not guidelines and they come under obviously safeguarding what faith do you have that this is going to make a difference because clearly there's a lot of self-policing that will have to go on with this as well

are you confident the clubs having this bigger threat hanging over them will stick to these rules? Yes, and one of the main reasons I wanted to come on the programme today is to help publicise it because BG have had policies, many, many policies over the years, which are all on their website, but you have to go and find them. They're not widely publicised. And I want to make sure that these policies are known by all the stakeholders.

And when I say that, I mean particularly the parents. You know, parents have to understand that if their club is being asked to bring their, you know, is asking them to bring their daughter out of school for gymnastics training, these parents and carers have to understand that that's not acceptable. Whereas previously they have managed to be persuaded that it was the right thing to do. Well, I want to bring in Eloise now. Just stay there for a second. Eloise, former gymnast, first and only person to win a civil case

against British gymnastics for the mistreatment you experienced in the sport. Are you confident that these new rules will make a difference? Well, I think it's a very positive step in the right direction. You know, many of us have been campaigning for years and it's great to see that British gymnastics are listening to us and that they're acknowledging, you know, that there is a wide cultural issue and they have got this robust policy, which certainly addresses that. That being said, simultaneously, you have an independent complaints process, which is deeply flawed. And every single case that we know of in Gymnasts for Change members who have brought complaints

against coaches, every single one of them has failed. And these coaches remain in the sport. So you know, whilst David has spoken about bringing new safeguarding personnel into British gymnastics and investing money, and talking about how they care and they want to implement these policies and police it. I don't see how this can be done when people have made complaints, the complaints have been investigated, but they haven't been resolved and the coaches haven't received punishment or any sort of ramification for the abuse of practices. David Hart pick up that point then what's the point of a complaints process if if nothing comes of it ultimately? Well I think complaints process needs to

firstly ascertain the facts and it needs to do so at speed and our biggest frustration has been that we've not been able to offer that speed to to to gear ourselves towards prompt resolution um as i mentioned earlier on this this isn't necessarily my my field of expertise but all i can say is that the work behind the scenes with the new director of safeguarding has could be an elemental change in all of this we've we've got massive belief now because of the personnel that we've appointed in leadership and the extra staff that we're bringing on board that things can be better moving forwards.

But there has been resolution, not in the favour of the gymnasts. That's Eloise's point. Well, I mean, on that one, there is currently a banned list of coaches who have obviously gone through a process to determine them unfit to coach and I think that as I say I'd probably I'd offer some caution getting any further into this conversation because we're dealing with a lot of specific cases here. Well we're not going to get into specific cases but the overarching kind of result here is that

the gymnasts have come forward none of their complaints have been upheld is that correct in your experience Eloise? Yeah so I unfortunately don't share the same confidence as David has in the new safeguarding officer and whilst I appreciate this isn't as his expertise this is a fundamental issue because cases are going to this panel they're British the way that the model is designed is that British gymnastics are essentially the complainants, and they take the gymnast cases to panel. The gymnasts are the witnesses of their own cases. And so they don't have a direct, you know, influence in that necessarily. And they are being represented by pro bono junior barristers in some cases who

don't have an expertise in the field. They haven't communicated with the gymnasts. The gymnasts aren't allowed to see the reports of their own cases. And as a result, there have been situations where these have failed. Meanwhile, when British gymnastics are facing, you know, abuse cases from the gymnasts themselves, they are employing a law firm, which is in the top global 15 law firms, which, you know, I'm sure don't come in cheap. And, you know, these cases are failing, and the coaches remain in the sport. And that is a fundamental issue, because you can put in these policies, and you can say, okay, we've got a robust safeguarding policy, which is

going to have a brighter future and all of that. But the cases of the past are not historic if the coaches remain in the sport that are guilty of these accusatory crimes. Final word then, David. Will you take Eloise's comments on? Would you look at the complaints procedure as well as part of this overhaul? Yeah, absolutely.

One thing I would say is that our director of safeguard, and I'm sure he'll be delighted to come and join your show and give you a bit more information in this area. It's something which is which is so important. I think it's a discussion point in its own right. And I would encourage you to do that because we've got a lot to share with you in that area, too. Thank you all for coming on. Very important subject. David Hart, their performance director of British Gymnastics. We heard from Karen Whelan as well, gymnastics coach, and Eloise Jutiski in the studio here, former elite gymnast and trustee and the youth voice on Gymnasts for Change board.

Thank you all very much. You can get in touch with the programme. If you have a view to share on that, we would love to hear from you. Now, it's long been claimed that in prehistoric times, women were gatherers whilst men were hunters.

However, new research debunks this narrative and suggests that women were actually superior to men when it comes to hunting. To find out more, I spoke to Anamika Milks, a Paleolithic archaeologist from the University of Reading, who is an expert in hunting and in weapons. And I began by asking her to summarize the research. So, yeah, there have been a suite of studies recently that are asking us to revisit and probably revise this idea that men hunt and women gather. And when we think about the deep, deep past, when we were evolving as hunters and also as gatherers, did this sort of sexual division of labor exist in the deep past? So there are a pair of new studies out by some researchers in America,

Sarah Lacey and Kara Akebak, who have looked at a couple of different aspects of this from different perspectives. And in one study, they looked at female physiology and in particular hormones and our skeletal build and whether there might be some metabolic advantages for women in a particular type of hunting. So they were looking at endurance hunting and finding that women maybe have an advantage for chasing after animals over long periods of time. So we weren't sitting around the campfire with the kids. We were out there getting dinner as well.

I mean, so we don't know what happened in the past. And this is one of the difficulties is that, you know, we have objects, we have tools, and sometimes we have the skeletons from Ne label of male or female on them unless they're buried with a male or a female skeleton. So we're left with trying to find these kinds of proxies to understand whether or not women were engaging in hunting. So I think this study and some other studies are sort of suggesting that, yeah, women were probably not sitting around the campfire all the time. They may very well have been engaging in hunting activities. So women have a better metabolism, a metabolism better suited to endurance, I guess, like like marathon runners, for example, which would have been useful when you had to kind of hunt and have the patience to hunt and kill your prey? Yeah, so that's one particular type of hunting called endurance hunting, where we would track

down an animal, maybe wound it first and then track it down sometimes for hours or even over the course of a day or two until that animal bleeds out or is exhausted. So for that particular type of hunting, endurance hunting, because of hormonal advantages and also a skeletal build, yeah, so women may have actually had an advantage like marathon runners, as you say. What is the hormonal advantage then for women in this situation? So they looked at two different advantages of two different hormones. Estrogen tends to delay fatigue. So this has an obvious advantage in endurance running. And then adiponectin can protect our muscles from wasting away. And so, again, an advantage when you're doing something muscular over a long period of time, as opposed to needing that sort of oomph muscle oomph that, you know, male physiologies might be better adapted to.

And why do hips in women as well, due to just the basic structure and childbirth. How does that help in the situation we're talking about? So it may, yeah, I mean, whether or not women's bodies, female bodies evolved, the hips for running, endurance running or not is a big question, right? I mean, it seems like the hips are evolved for childbirth, but those wider hips allow for a longer stride. So again, there's possibly this metabolic advantage, just it's just a little bit more efficient. Yet again, it sounds we have to rethink women's role

in history. I've met dads down the local supermarket who joke and go, I'm out being the hunter gatherer. And I can answer now and say, well, so am I. Yeah, I think, you know, we have to be careful, right? We don't know what the sexual division of labor was in the past. And I think one of the problems has been that we've looked at this question about these objects from sometimes hundreds of thousands of years ago and we've looked at it from a male lens for many many decades so we look at contemporary hunter-gatherer societies and the tendency would be to emphasize how much hunting men do in those societies and how women are doing other kinds of work which is important important, important work, very important work.

But that's not the case in all hunter-gatherer societies. Women do hunt in hunter-gatherer societies. Sometimes they hunt quite a lot. Sometimes they might hunt differently or with different tools to how the men hunt, but they are hunting. So I think, you know, we can't just make a simple view about the past, hundreds of thousands of years of history, and we need to think about it as a variable past, right? Like women contributed in all sorts of different ways. We learn from history books, so it sounds like someone needs to update the history of this.

Would you be up for it? I think we do i think lots of people lots of researchers are revisiting this question and and we need to kind of it's not just the history books right we need to think about the images that we put out there because when you think about images about cave people in the past it always, almost always the men who are holding the spears and the other weapons. So yeah, we need to review kind of that bias and think about where it might be valid and where we need to rethink things and redraw things. We're all hunter gatherers now. That is Dr. Anamika Milks. You are listening to Woman's Hour. Thank you very much for joining us this morning.

Now, have you ever watched strangers in the street hug and laugh? And did it make you nostalgic for a time when you had been like that with your friends? Well, my next guest was inspired to write a poem after walking by two younger girls laughing in the street. Shannon Haley wrote a poem about missing her best friend because they live in different countries. She posted it on social media and was amazed when it went viral. It struck a chord with many people missing their friends. We've got Shannon on the line from New York where she lives.

Morning, Shannon. Hi, how are you doing? Very well. And we also have journalist Rose Stokes, who after 18 years of not living in the same city as her best friend decided to move her family to be closer to her best friend. Rose, hello. Hi. You both value friendship immensely, which is very, very heartwarming. Shannon, let's start with you. What was it about these two girls laughing that inspired you? I think it just, me and my best friend from home,

when we're together, it's just a different sort of humour that I have with anybody else. It's just, we'll be hysterically laughing. It's just so comfortable with the person. I think that's something that I've always searched for in friendships when I've been abroad, that I just haven't found anybody bar her. And I saw these two girls and they had the exact same thing and yeah. You connected. Just maybe not say that that much. Yes.

So you wrote a poem. Can you read it for us now? Of course. To my best friend that I don't get to see every day. My best friend who lives a full ocean away. Today I was passing two girls just like us and it sort of just stopped me, just made my heart crush. Because the way they were laughing, they had these tears in their eyes, no words were coming, just joy making them cry. And they were a little bit younger, around the age we first met, and I think maybe that's why it made me so upset. Because these girls in the future may live an ocean away

and they won't get to see each other every single day and the days I would give anything just to rewind and go back are the days of just laughing on a Monday just like that. And I hope you know that you never leave my mind and I speak about you to everybody all of the time and no matter how many friends, new people I meet, I'd swim the ocean tomorrow to just laugh on the street. What a beautiful poem. What's your friend called?

Julie. Julie. What did Julie say when you read that to her? I think she related to it. I'm sure she did. I mean, tell us when you met her, because it sounds like you've been friends for a very long time. Yeah, we've been in school together. So, but I mean, it's so strange now because I've been, we've been friends now for just as long living apart as we have living in the same city. But she's the best. Yeah. But it definitely feels strange that we're living these separate lives she's over in London I'm in New York so well listen we're going to talk to uh Rose now Rose your friend you miss so much you decided on something rather drastic didn't you

it does maybe sound a little bit crazy doesn't it um so uh yes no uh So my best friend and I, our mums met when they were pregnant in the NCT and we were born in the same week. So pretty much first 18 years of our lives, inseparable. Everything we did together, like all of the experiences you can imagine. And then obviously we went to different unis as people so often do and our lives started to diverge. I moved abroad. I went back and then when I came back, I was in London. She moved to Bath with her husband and she had children and then when I met my partner um and we had a baby um we had already agreed that um London wasn't really where we wanted to be long term and when we started to think about places where we might live, it felt a bit like a no-brainer.

And I also, to be clear, went to university here, so it wasn't the only reason to move here, but my husband really, really liked the place, and also he really wanted me and Maddy to be reconnected. So that's what we did. Yeah, was he just tired of you constantly texting Maddie let's just move well unfortunately that hasn't actually stopped but um I I think it's because I like motherhood new motherhood hit me really hard um I had postnatal depression and anxiety and I found it really isolating and because Maddie who was sort of five years ahead of me in terms of

she had her kids a while ago like like I was leaning on her more. But obviously, when you've got children, if anyone has children, they know like all yeah, it just became sort of more and more clear that being nearer to my support network would be better for me. And also from your friend, I guess, if she was slightly ahead of you on the kid front, she can help you loads, can't she? Just with advice and support. And she's also retrained as a counsellor in the meantime.

I think possibly no small influence, but I think it's a deal with me for the past I think possibly no small influence um but having to deal with me for the past 18 years well um yes no it's really handy and also just to have someone that could like can just drop in if you're I mean I even just video called her the other morning because I was crying and my child was crying um or I drove around to her house the other morning because I dropped off my son and he'd been emotional at nursery um and I just cried on her sofa for 30 minutes and then we both went to work and what does it change I suppose because you can have that informality when you're close by you can just do the drop-ins which is the thing that I guess Shannon is really missing how does that change

things for you Rose that she's just she's just there now I really thought it would be like a big like whoa um but actually it just feels like it always was like it feels completely normal like um you know I think for us it's just nice and comforting to know that each other's nearby like obviously we've got children we're both busy um but the drop-ins I just can't get over how nice it is to just be able to casually sort of pop around and for me I think when your like predominant form of communication is either text message or phoning each other or whatever you tend to condense like what's going on in your life into sort of headlines don't you and sort of this is the you know you miss out a

lot of the details whereas I feel like possibly I'm much more in tune now with the sort of broad reach of her emotional you know health everything that she's going through small things big things like um that perhaps beforehand wouldn't have made you know the headlines or whatever um we did keep in touch fantastically well over 18 years, I have to say, when I think back, it's mad. But, you know, we had a pretty much a constant conversation going for 18 years on WhatsApp, or well, first SMS and then... Well, I just wanted to bring Shannon back in because it's hard for you. It must be hard for you, Shannon, listening to this because, you know, your work has taken you to New York and that's

where your life is now. And I guess that's a very good point isn't it because when you don't see friends for so long it's almost like you are giving them the headlines do you notice that your relationship with your close friend has changed now because of the distance? Yeah 100% and it's that exact thing it's you miss the small details about a person's life that you know you would have gotten if when we were living in the same place together um but I mean I think it's trial and error with any long distance friendship relationship we've started writing we I think it was last year we started writing letters email letters to each other just to try and get in those small details that you miss over text or sometimes if you're having a quick call um and that's been nice but no it's definitely so nice listening to rose say that

because i dream of the day that we are back living in the same place do you know what honestly i really want to say to you okay i'm i'm making a huge guess here that you're quite a bit younger than me and in my 20s um i felt exactly the same and I couldn't actually really conceive of an idea where our lives would come back together again because she was sort of further down the marriage kids line than I was she lived in a different city I was single you know working in London as a journalist I didn't really see how those two things could ever um me but I think that you know we still kept putting the effort in putting the effort in and then somehow it just all clicked back into place and you know I just

you never really know where life's going to take you and maybe you'll end up in the same city again and so it's definitely worth keeping those relationships like alive and like I'm the same as you like everyone in my life that I met knew about Maddie like she's like part of my you know she's part of who I am exactly and so keeping them alive in that way and then and then you just don't know where your life's going to take you I mean five years ago I lived in London was single uh and lived and you know was living on my own now I have a husband uh a child lived down the road from my best friend it's just not it's not rose I have to say you winced when you said the husband

line there but see you on the zoom would your friend Shannon move to New York or can you see yourself going back to Ireland either of those options I I think ideally I would actually love to move back home um right now it's just the place that's right for me work-wise, but I would love, at least even if I moved to London, she was still in the UK, I think that would be also a possibility maybe. Well, listen, thank you both so much for being so open and honest

about the importance of female friendships and how you keep them going over long distances. Shannon Haley there talking to us from New York and Rose Stokes, who moved to be close to her very best friend 18 years after not living in the same city. You are sharing your long distance friendships with us. You can text the program 84844. Roxanne, hello, Roxanne. My best friend means so much to me that we want to go even further than moving.

Our lifelong dream is to build an annex slash cottage in our garden for her and her family to live in. We both don't have much family nearby and consider each other family. That is going one step further, Roxanne. Do text the programme on anything you want to join in on. We'd love to hear from you. The text number 84844.

Now, there is a brilliant new movie actor, sorry, film out. And my next guest is the actor Myhala, best known for her role as Harper Stern in the BBC drama Industry or her role as Jordan in the comedic horror film Bodies, Bodies, Bodies. Mahalo grew up in California and it was the stage where she earned her stripes as an actor but her next gig is an altogether bigger affair as she stars in a blockbuster film alongside not one but two Academy Award winning actors Julia Roberts and Mahashala Ali. Leave the World Behind is an apocalyptic thriller based in America which sees Julia Roberts' character Amanda rent a luxury house in the countryside with her family. Now they are disturbed by Ruth, played by Mahala, and her father who

claim they own the house and need a place to stay following a mysterious cyber attack. Now the two families reckon with a looming disaster that grows more terrifying by the minute, forcing everyone to come to terms with their places in a collapsing world. It's based on the novel by Ruman Alam and is released on Netflix this week. Delighted to say, Mahala joins me in the Woman's Hour studio. Welcome. Thank you so much for having me.

I'm super excited to be here. It's great to have you. That sort of sums up quite a complex plot, doesn't it? Yeah, it's spot on though. Well, there we go. Thank you very much. I want to get on to your role in the film, but just let's take a step back from that incredible cast. You've got Julia Roberts, you've got Mahershala Ali, Ethan Hawke, Kevin Bacon. What was it like when you got this part and thought, oh, my goodness, I'm working alongside these people? Well, when I when I got the phone call that's and they were like, oh, you've you've been cast. I literally cried. I was so excited and felt so honored. And I mean, because this is truly like, to share this now global platform with these OGs, these heavy hitters, these, these masters, these legends is a huge honor.

And I was just like, super privileged to be there. Honestly, on my first day, I was like, okay, pencil pad, take notes, pay attention. It was like truly just going to be a masterclass the whole time. And it was really that. And and everyone was so kind to me and welcomed me in as their peer. And I felt challenged and respected and very close to all of them, which was an incredible, very pleasant surprise. I mean, the praise given back to you by Mahershala Ali, he said this, she's always known that she's wanted to act. I could feel the hours she's put in the work coming off her. She's so at ease and comfortable in her skin.

And it's good to be around people like that. Praise indeed. Oh, my gosh. That's really nice. that. Praise indeed. Oh, my gosh. That's really nice. That's so nice. Oh, my gosh. I mean, he clearly respects your work ethic and he could feel it, a man of his experience. So that must mean a lot. I mean, it does. I hadn't I hadn't heard that.

So I'm a bit like, oh, it's nice to hear that from somebody who you also respect. I mean, Mahershala is like one of the nicest people maybe to ever live. And the way he approaches his work as well with such thoughtfulness and care and dedication and commitment to hear that he sees that reflected in me is very touching and makes me feel very validated. It's a thriller and it's an absolutely brilliantly directed thriller. And as the film progresses, the layers come off and you understand more about why all of these characters have ended up in the situation they have. Your character, Ruth, turns up on the doorstep with her father,

Julia Roberts' family, renting this kind of Long Island rental for the weekend, deeply mistrusting of the family she's forced to share a space with. Tell us more about her. How did you get into this character? So Ruth is, in our version of this story, is young. She's my age, you know, she's, like, mid-20s. But in the book, the original character, Ruth, is G.H.'s wife. And Sam Esmail, our writer-director, he was like, I think it's important to add this, my generation's perspective in the film because otherwise it would have been adults married people with children

and then like 12, I don't know how old the youngest kids in the film are, but they're younger than me. So Sam brilliantly was like, I think it's important to bring in this sort of Gen Z millennial perspective on this whole thing, which I was super stoked about because I feel like in the context of our story, this character's perspective, this generation is like really cutting. And it kind of puts all the all of the adult characters on edge in a way that they wouldn't feel challenged or seen by children. And because the role didn't exist in the book, I sort of got to do whatever I wanted to do which is exciting I mean obviously obviously in conversation and in collaboration with Sam he created it really but he was like

because this is new and because you are this age like please bring yourself to it which was also again a huge pleasure. There's a lot of mistrust, as you say, with your millennial character and Julia Roberts' character. And they don't like each other, let's be honest, at the start of this film. And race plays a big part in that, doesn't it? Of course, yeah. I mean, I always say, you know, when people ask me about the race element in the work that I get to do, I always say like for me it's not a

thought because I like I am the race element you know and and what I think beautiful work doesn't force you to look at something it just gives you the opportunity to address it and what I really appreciate about this character, her age and ethnicity, like being in conflict with Julia's character, is that it does in a really specific way highlight race, gender, age. Because they are they are then like the two sort of women that are not like girls, they're the two women dealing with this. And they don't necessarily band together because there is something stronger at play here, including race and class or, yeah, class. Assumptions you make about somebody simply because of the way they look. Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. That was really, that was really fun to get to go head to head with Julia. But they go on a journey, don't they? Both those characters, which is great to see you playing alongside. And in the end, she just that one line, she says,

she's an adult, you know, don't you don't need to sort of lie in front of her. There's clearly a journey that has led her to respect your character. Yeah. Um, I like that. Well, I like that take that you say that she respects her. Although I wonder if I'd interpret it as more as she's like not. She's in that moment I interpreted it as her being panicked and not wanting to baby someone and because she's like overwhelmed with the the situation that they're in however i like that take that she is now accepting her as an adult um you stand your ground your character stands and you demand respect and it's almost like that's the switch that's how i interpret anyway and and the journey that they go on at the end, I mean, no spoilers, but this is a cyber attack. It's an apocalyptic film. There's so many messages in this movie about questioning how we live now.

Did it question, did it make you question, you know, how you exist day to day, how the modern world informs how we behave and how we interact with other people and whether that's always a good thing. Yes. I mean, it was probably less question and more like showing me a mirror, being like, pay attention, you know, because I think if we took a moment to think critically, we would all understand the dangers or the potential threats in the way that we live, in the way that we interact with and engage with technology and how that then affects our relationships to each other. But we just go on. We just carry on, you know, as if it's not a threat. And this film just shows us the potential. And it sort of it feels like a wake up call.

Yeah, I was a bit like, you know, bugged out. For somebody in your position, though, and we often in the Woman's Hour studio talk about the kind of toxic exposure that actresses would get on social media has evolved from what felt like kind of a digital photo album and a sort of like, oh, I'm just communicating with my friends to now everyone can see inside me. It feels a bit, it can feel invasive. And so then there was this switch that happened. They said, well, you know, I want to keep some parts of my life private. There's some things that people don't need to see or don't need to know or that I don't want to open up to discussion like my family or my relationship. And then, of course, my strongheadedness. I was like, I should be able to do whatever I want on my social media.

Like, I don't care what anybody says. But the reality is I look, I see most of the things that are said to me or about me or in my corner of the internet and there are some things that bother me um like well uh I welcome criticism on my work on the things that I do. The things that cut deep are, you know, comments about my body or my face or people, people feel quite emboldened behind a screen and they can say some really nasty things that sort of just make no sense. It's like, you know, when when you're a kid on the schoolyard and they're like, you know, going back and forth and they're like, you're mama. And it just sort of ends the argument.

It's just like sort of mean, meanless things that sort of hurt my feelings just because I think, like, why would anybody want to hurt my feelings? Like, what did I do to you? I guess you're having to deal with all of this now. But how confident are you? How optimistic are you? Because this is a film that will push you up a level. We've seen you on Industry, on the BBC. We've seen you on Bodies, Bodies, Bodies.

Fantastic work. But are you prepared for the next level? I mean, the only way out is up. Nobody can prepare you for any of this. I went to drama school and I trained my whole life and I could not have been prepared, not even for this moment. Like my heart is racing. I'm so happy to be here. I'm so excited and nervous. There's no preparing you. You can only rely on, you know, your circle to keep you grounded and continue to be authentic in who you are. I think that's sort of like the most grounding thing.

That's all you can really do. Well, great advice. And we wish you all the best. And it's a brilliant film. Thank you. I've watched it. Leave the world behind. You can catch it on Netflix.

Mahalo. Thank you so much for coming into the Women's Hour studio. Lovely to meet you. It's been a pleasure. Thank you for having me. Now, did what you were forced to wear for PE classes at school put you off exercise altogether? Well, my next guest is a bit of an expert in this field. Team GB hockey player Tess Howard campaigned for women to be able to choose what they want to wear when playing elite level sport,

and it worked. Official kit regulations have now been rewritten, offering more choice. And as a result, Tess has been awarded Changemaker of the Year at the Sunday Times Sportswomen Awards for her work. And she joins me now live from Buenos Aires, where she's part of the GB squad taking part in the FIH Pro League competition where they'll face Argentina and Holland over five days of matches

starting next Thursday. Tess, welcome. Thank you so much. Congratulations on the award. It's brilliant news because obviously what young girls and women wear has a massive impact on whether they want to carry on playing a sport, doesn't it? Absolutely. It's everything about why we play sport.

We play sport to be free and that's why I play it. And if your uniform, what you wear is the antithesis of that then you can have an issue my research started with a simple question of whether our school sport uniform was practical professional or patriarchal that's the the title of my research and it's safe to say that was not not the former and it was definitely the latter so what what changes? Because I know they've rewritten the kit regulations. So what changes have you managed to force through? We now have the choice to wear either shorts or skorts in the same team.

And not everybody has to wear the same thing. That is the biggest change. And if you like, in one pair of shorts, we've sort of redefined what hockey could look like. The tradition in hockey has always been to wear skorts. And so in one pair of shorts, we've ripped off the mask of tradition and revealed common sense because we all train in shorts every day. So why was that change needed, do you think? What made certain players feel uncomfortable about wearing skorts which are the the skirt over

the shorts yeah so so for me um it was really really uncomfortable if you think just ergonomically no one's really going to run a marathon in a sport um true our skorts were were compression skorts as well which meant that it really hugged in places you didn't want it to hug when you're on TV. But generally, there's the element of practicality, but then there's also the element of the gendered expectations of women and girls at a young age in sport. And that's really what kind of drew my attention when I was writing my research was why from age five are we creating a gender play gap from uniform so for me that was where it started um why should we still have to be carrying a legacy of patriarchy when we are playing and if it's going to be a performance benefit for us to train in shorts then surely that trumps the tradition absolutely i know you've launched your own inclusive sportswear organisation and you've been asked a lot by brands as to how they can make their own kits more inclusive, which is brilliant.

Is that a sign that we're moving in the right direction? Because clearly, if you want to make money and you want people to buy your product, then make things that women and young girls want to wear. Exactly. And the thing is, though, with inclusive sportswear, that it started from my research and it started in the conclusion, which actually said we have to create systemic change in uniform policy. And I wrote the conclusion, so I thought, well, I'm going to get on it. So I created inclusive sportswear, which is all about choice. It's about comfort.

And what I'm seeing at National Governing Bodies, I mean, you had gymnastics on this morning. And Sarah Voss, the German gymnast, really inspired me back in 2021 in Tokyo. And unfortunately, I couldn't be there with my ACL injury, but I was icing it and writing up my dissertation thinking. I hope she reads this. Yeah. But it's across all sports and it connects to a much greater narrative. I was so proud of our team in the summer running out in a combination.

You know, we were half and half. That is the ultimate definition of choice. And the reason why I was so proud was a for our own performance and comfort but also connecting to the greater narrative of women's choice everything your program's about yes it certainly is I just want to ask you briefly about your research revealing more than 70% of women and girls blame their kit and body image concerns for why they dropped out of sports this is huge isn't it that's why it needs to change. Yeah, 70% of women said they'd seen girls drop out of sport because of sports kit. And that is extremely alarming.

60% said that they wanted shorts as an option. But, you know, we can talk about the stats or we can talk about the real human experiences. And that's why I went into surveys and interviews. I still get Instagram messages from girls who are wearing their shorts for the very first time playing hockey or clubs tagging me saying we've just launched our women's shorts. And the amount of pride there is because it wasn't an issue of wearing shorts because we all wear them at training. It was an issue of the tradition

and the barriers that we were facing. who's going to step out and do it first who's going to take the risk and I knew that if the elite team you know I felt that if if I could do it if my teammates could do it then we could show the grassroots we could show the club game that it was okay and you can feel empowered wearing your kit. You have done that Tess congratulations on the awards. You truly are a game changer. Team GB hockey player, Tess Howard. Almost it from us for today.

Lovely text coming in on friendship. Shannon's stunningly open and loving poem is also deeply moving and poignant for those of us in the world who have never experienced the best friend in the same way. Thank you, Shannon, says Juliet. Thank you, Juliet, for your text. Just time to tell you we have a very special guest on Woman's Hour tomorrow.

The actor Emily Blunt will join me to talk about her role as Kitty Oppenheimer in one of this year's biggest cinematic hits. It's going to be streaming, so I'll be chatting to Emily on the programme tomorrow. Thank you for joining me. That's all from today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I love you. I know that. Carolyn is 80, a wealthy widow. Dave is in his 50s, homeless, a former drug addict with a long criminal record. Their love affair causes a huge rift in Carolyn's family. That's our mom. We're not going to let you just do that. I'm Sue Mitchell and this story unfolded in California on the street where I

live. Look what you brought into your house. He's a con artist, mother. Is Dave a dangerous interloper or the tender carer he claims to be? That's why I'm here. Thank the Lord. Find out in Intrigue, Million Dollar Lover from BBC Radio 4. Listen on BBC Sounds. If anything happens to you, I will just die. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

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