Woman's Hour - Britney Spears, Jackie Collins. Young Engineers

Episode Date: June 24, 2021

Britney Spears spoke publicly in a LA court yesterday about the conservatorship that she sees as controlling her life. Her father was granted control over her affairs after she went to hospital because of mental health concerns. Now she says her father controls her "100,000%" and told the judge she was traumatised and cried every day. "I just want my life back," she said. We talk to BBC Newsbeat reporter Lindsay Brown and the writer Pandora Sykes who presents a soon to be released, eight-part podcast series called Pieces of Britney.We talk about Jackie Collins who was often dismissed as the Queen of Sleaze but she's one of the most successful female authors of all time. But who really was the woman behind the glamour? A new film is coming out about her called Lady Boss, so we talk to the film director Laurie Fairrie as well as Jackie's eldest daughter, Tracy Lerman. This week we had International Women in Engineering Day, so today we celebrate some of our future scientists. Three of them have just won the GSK Young Engineer and Young Scientist of the Year awards. We speak to Kaede Sugano, Saashi Ghaie and Serena Jacob.And weddings. We get the latest information about what you can and can't do if you're having a wedding soon, and we also speak to Marjorie Wallace who's just got married at 78.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Girls can do anything. That was the motto of the late Jackie Collins, one of the most successful authors of all time, and yet despite her millions of fans, she was often dismissed as the Queen of Sleaze because she dared to write honestly about women, power and sex.

Now a new film about her life, Ladyboss, the Jackie Collins stories, seeks to set the record straight. Have a listen to the clip that the producers unearthed from the TV programme Kilroy back in 1993. I bought a book yesterday and I read the first paragraph and I felt I am demeaning myself reading any further. What book was it? This is called Lovers and Gamblers.

Now, is that the only one of mine you've ever read? Well, there was one left in my house once, and I'm afraid it was put out for the dust. The thing that very much worries me about your books is the sex that your stronger women are enjoying, which they're enjoying on a very kind of passive level. They're enjoying being brutalised and dominated, which seems very unlike the rest of their lovingness.

Because, as a matter of fact, in my books, the woman always comes out on top. I've read Hollywood husbands. Yeah. And the beginning, the first chapter, is disgusting. Well, I'll be joined by the director of that film and Jackie Collins' eldest daughter, Tracy Lerman, a bit later in the programme. But with her motto ringing in your ears this morning, girls can do anything.

I would love to hear the words that get you through. Life mottos. What is yours? Where did you get it from? Who said it to you? Who did you hear it from? It doesn't need to be a literary quote or it might be. But the words that you cling to, please get in touch with those. You can text me on 84844 or social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour, or email us through our website. I have to say, mine was something written down to me when I was leaving school by an older girl that I respected. And she simply said, signing my book, rock on, Emma. I've kept that with me ever since. I always reach for it. I don't know why I always think of it. She put a little star next to it, which I can still

remember her handwriting. But I do reach for it during a tough moment or if I'm about to push myself out of my comfort zone. And there was one from earlier on in the week. You may have heard my interview with Anna Diamond. She survived 200 days in solitary confinement in Iran, has just come back, has now got a first from King's College and going off to Oxford to do her PhD. She's got a scholarship to Oxford University. And she said of that remarkable experience in every sense of the word, you don't go to hell and come back empty handed. What's yours? Let us know. Looking forward to hearing them. And drawing on the power of words, Jackie Collins also wrote in one of her books, Justice for All Females, which will seem pertinent today to many in light of Britney Spears speaking for the first time publicly in a court against her abusive conservatorship that has controlled her life for 13 years.

She's accused her father of controlling her 100,000%. We'll hear the latest on that extraordinary case shortly. And while the landscape for weddings is still uncertain, we'll bring you the latest on those rules, one if you got in touch to ask for that. But you also answered my call from yesterday's programme about what to wear the second time around. Keep getting in touch, as I'll be joined by 78-year-old Marjorie Wallace,

who got married again last month. And also, if you could do your wedding again, what would you do differently? 84844, same number to text me on or on social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour. Plus, we'll also be joined today by the scientists and engineers of tomorrow. I'll be talking to three rising stars about their amazing and now award-winning inventions. But dominating the news today is the US pop star Britney Spears, who has spoken publicly for the first time about, as she puts it, the abusive conservatorship that has controlled her life for 13 years at a court hearing. Britney catapulted to fame at the age of 16 with her global hit single Hit Me Baby One More Time.

And more than 20 years later, her debut remains the best selling album by a teenage solo artist. Her father, Jamie Spears, was granted control over her affairs by a court order in 2008. The order was granted after the star was put in hospital amid concerns over her mental health. Speaking in open court, she accused her father of controlling her 100,000% yesterday and told the judge she was traumatised and cried every day.

I just want my life back, she said. To discuss the latest on this story, I'm joined by BBC Newsbeat reporter Lindsay Brown and the writer Pandora Sykes, who presents a new eight-part podcast series, Pieces of Britney, all of which will be available on BBC Sounds from the 1st of July. Lindsay, to come to you first, she's spoken out. Tell us just before we get to that, what is conservatorship? Yeah, hi Emma. So this conservatorship was put on her back in 2008 and it's usually a court order for individuals who have illnesses such as dementia or mental health problems. So back in 2008, I don't know if you remember the very public breakdown that Britney had. There were lots of pictures of her shaving her head. And it was when she was going

through her divorce with Kevin Fedelin and a custody battle over her two children. So this conservative shit that was put on her, it's two parts, really. It controls her finances and her decisions, for example, the work she undertakes. So it's one for her estate and finances and also one for her as a person. Now, as you said, it was her dad, Jamie Spears, that was put in control of her. And she's asking for what in this court case? Because there has been a Free Britney movement, hasn't there, which grew on social media. And more recently, there's been

more coverage of this in documentaries. Yeah, that's right. Well, she ultimately wants this conservatorship to end. And in a 20 minute emotional statement that she read out in court via video last night, she made some pretty, well, she made these claims against her dad firstly she said she accuses him of putting her on birth control and getting a contraceptive IUD fitted and she said she wants to get married and have a baby and she's now not allowed to do that because of this contraception she also claimed that she was forced to take lithium to treat her bipolar and that was against her will and she says this conservative ship is abusive and that he controls her a hundred thousand percent and as you mentioned there she she has this huge fan base who have been very vocal they're outside courts on every appearance

and every court hearing they've been campaigning and they've even asked the white house to step in to stop this conservatorship. When they heard what she said yesterday, they said it's actually worse than they had originally thought. But publicly on social media, she's come across very happy. She does her dance routines. She's never mentioned the conservatorship. She's been very silent. But yesterday she did say in court that actually underneath it all, she can't sleep, she's not happy, she cries every day, she's traumatised by it. And she said she's been faking it. She's been faking this happiness and this life that she's leading, but actually she's very unhappy and she's called this conservatorship abusive. What have her father's side said?

Well, previously he has insisted that he's done a good job of managing her finances. But yesterday, a statement released by his lawyer said that he was sorry to see his daughter suffering and in so much pain and that he loves and misses her. This is expected to be a long case, isn't it? Yeah, we're not quite sure when it's going to end at the moment. But what she needs to prove really is that she is capable and competent of controlling her finances and her life. So we're not we're not got any sort of end date in mind, but it is expected to go on for a long time. Lindsay Brown from BBC Newsbeat. Thank you for putting us in the picture on the latest on the case. Let's now talk, as I say, to the author and podcaster Pandora Sykes.

What have you been looking at for your podcast series? We've been looking at Britney's life as a whole, because even though a lot of us are only just learning about what she's going through in the conservatorship, and there's kind of been rumbling since 2019, and that's when the Free Britney movement really stepped up again. Actually, her whole life has been subject to some really interesting and oftentimes dubious cultural forces. She became a teenage pop star and she was catapulted into stardom, sort of the likes of which we've never really seen again into post-Clinton, post-AIDS America,

this really puritanical environment where they were back to teaching abstinence-only sex education. And Britney came along and said she wanted to stay a virgin until she was married. And so she was sort of seized upon as this kind of icon for a new America. And then five, six years later, when her then-ex-boyfriend, Justin Timberlake, another pop star, said that actually they had slept together. She swung from the Madonna to the whore. And this whole sort of shaming and misogyny, which wasn't just happening to Britney, it was a huge force at the beginning of the noughties as the Internet kind of, you know, people got mainstream access to the Internet.

She was the inaugural pop princess of the internet, the first pop star, really. And celebrity gossip blogs and the paparazzi, which became huge at that time, and lots of gossip magazines all sort of conspired to see these women as, they were kind of held up as parables really of um how life goes wrong when you want for too much and you succeed too much and she became this kind of train wreck you know she was seen as a train wreck and then she had that very public meltdown um and was put in this conservatorship and we've seen that happen to a lot of women but i think britney is possibly the most iconic,

for want of a better word, of how this can be done to famous young women. So not necessarily, sorry, the conservatorship, but the attitudes around and how she was treated by the cultural forces that you're describing. Because the other striking thing, and I did watch that New York Times documentary, as many people have, and there's been subsequent ones, one even here on the BBC since

and now your podcast series is that she has continued to work during this she has been prodigious in her output she's had a residency at Las Vegas she even spoke about that yesterday though and the pressures on that so you know at the same time as as you say changing the perception of her changing she's also hugely talented and continued to work. I think this is what's been such a strange and sticky thing around the whole conservatorship is that conservatorships are not usually, as her co-conservator called it, a hybrid business model, her ex-co-conservatorship. They're not necessarily as profitable as Britney's has been. You know, she made a hundred and her four year residency in Vegas made one hundred and twenty million.

So she was doing huge, huge work events. They were very controlled, but she was still producing a lot of money. And when you look at what other pop stars her age are worth or of her sort of repute, you're looking at three four hundred million and she's worth 60 million and there are several times where she's spoken about um uh or it's been alleged rather how much her conservatorship is costing her um but at the same time I think and this is what we really want to do in the podcast is to slightly look beyond okay well she's working therefore she must be fine. She also had young children. So the custody

of those was, I'm sure, you know, part of it. And she's spoken yesterday about that. And a lot of other people in her life have alleged that they were used as leverage. And I think the amount of fear and manipulation that can go on in 13 years, I don't think it's so straightforward that we can look at it and say, she must be fine or must be fine. I think, you know, this story really shows how much was going on behind the scenes. And I suppose we're only starting to hear some of that now, and especially in Britney's own words. Thank you for talking to us, Pandora Sykes. That new eight-part podcast series, Pieces of Britney, will be available on BBC Sounds from the 1st of July. And a lot of also other public figures wading in on this. For instance, Rose McGowan, the actor in Me Too, activist, has said on Twitter that Spears had every right to be angry, adding, stop controlling women. Well, you're getting in touch with the words that mean a lot to you today and the mottos that get you through some really interesting and varied ones here. Evil happens when good men walk past, says Griselda. My go-to saying is the best thing about the past is that it's over, says Dee. Yes, another one here. My life motto is not my problem

or NMP. I use it to stop me worrying about issues I can't make changes about. If I can influence or change, I do it. But if I can't take on problems I can't solve, it's helped me manage illness in others close to and living with alcoholism. Terry says that. Thank you. You can only do your best, says Yvonne, from my mother.

I've tried to live by that. Build something new out of the wreckage, says Gail. Wow, from David. Never trust anyone, not even your own father. Told to me by my maternal grandfather. It's been a whole programme on that one. From my dad, another one here. Life's not fair.

Wise words, says Kate. Procrastination is the thief of time, says Sophie. Told to me by my mum as a young teen. I still always tell it to myself. So do I, mainly when I'm procrastinating, I have to say. Jane and Barry, good morning. The words that have kept me going in dark times are to despair is to betray the future and more to that effect coming in and and lovely ones really lovely ones uh my brilliant mum always says rose

and camden if you don't laugh you'll cry action conquers fear from kathy and my mantra is i'm the sky everything else is just the weather. Oh, loving these, loving this. Keep them coming in, please. Mottos, where are they from? Why do you cling to them? And what are they? 84844. We are talking about the power of words and that will now take us to the world of Jackie Collins. She took us into a world of glamour, scandal, sex, women calling the shots. And yet, despite being one of the most successful female authors of all time, she was often dismissed as the Queen of Sleaze, written off. It all started with her 1968 novel, The World is Full of Married Men.

She went on to sell more than 500 million books worldwide. Several were turned into films and TV specials such as Hollywood Wives, The Stud and The Bitch, starring her older sister, Joan Collins. Jackie died of cancer in 2015 at the age of 77, just days after promoting her latest novel. You may remember seeing and hearing her. But who was the woman behind the glamorous leopard print facade? A new film, Lady Boss, the Jackie Collins story, seeks to set the record straight. But before I talk to the

doctor and a member of her family, let's hear from her directly. Here's Jackie Collins on Woman's Hour in 2008, talking to Jane Garvey about her first novel, The World is Full of Married Men. I think I was one of the first women who would write openly about sex as far as women were concerned. And The World is Full of Married Men very much took the double standard and turned it on its head. Because women were like, you know, having nervous breakdowns and harrards. That's what all the female writers were writing at that time. And it was a book that really women loved because I had a woman that was married to a man and he would go off for the weekend and have affairs all over the place. And his friends would say, it was okay, you know, a man can do that. It doesn't mean anything. It's just sex. She should just accept it. So she accepted it for a few years. And then eventually she turned around

and did it back to him. And what did he do? He was outraged. He was outraged. He went to his beautiful girlfriend and he said, I'm going to divorce my wife and marry you. And the beautiful girlfriend looked at him and said, I don't think so. I just like sleeping with married men. People think there's a huge amount of sex in my books. It's because you're vested in the characters that you're kind of interested in what they're going to do in bed. And I think that a lot of men write like gynecologists, and I never wanted to do that. I wanted to write sex that was erotic, sex that would get the reader's imagination fired up. And sex that the women enjoyed. Exactly. And strong women and equal sex. So I've always been very much a feminist,

but in a different kind of a way. Well, we'll get into all of that, but great to hear. Wonderful to hear her voice. I'm now joined by the director of Lady Boss, the Jackie Collins story, Laura Ferry, and by Jackie's oldest daughter, Tracey Lerman. Laura, if I actually could start with you. You've described this not just as a story of Jackie Collins, but a political film. Why? Well, you know, because Jackie Collins put her brand of feminism at the heart of what she did. And, you know, she was constantly dismissed and sneered at throughout her life about the books that she was written and which she was never given the respect or recognition that she deserves.

So, you know, for all those reasons, I saw the film as a political film, not just what you kind of would perhaps sort of accept, unexpected, you know, to see in a film about Jackie Collins. On that point, Tracey, welcome to the programme. I should also say I've watched it. It's a very powerful film. It's also very entertaining. And there's a lot of good jokes and good lines from your mum because she was

regularly having to defend herself quite a lot, wasn't she? Absolutely. I mean, I think she had so much thrown at her and she really rooted and grounded herself in her belief that she was entertaining millions of people. I mean, not just women, but, you know, women who would never normally have even, you know, there were certainly back when she started with The World is Full of Married Men, there was, you know, a certain proportion of women who may have thought, oh, you know, reading books, I'm not even really up to that. That's a sort of something that I don't do. I'm not a reader. I'm not, I don't read Jane Austen or I don't. And somehow, you know, somebody would pick up one of her books and they would be engrossed within,

you know, two or three pages. They'd get completely swept up and caught away and, you know, swept up in this amazing world that wasn't necessarily their world, but it certainly created a platform for women to believe that there was more out there for them, potentially. And how does she cope with that behind the scenes? Because she did have great responses when put on the spot. And she had this wonderful kind of armour, didn't she, with her shoulder pads and her leopard print and, you know, big hair before there was big hair, as it's referred to in the film. Did she cope with that behind the scenes?

She did. She coped really, really well, actually. But I think part of the armour that you've talked about was developed over a number of years. I mean, she was very young. You know, she was 28, 29 when she wrote The World is Full of Married Men, very, very beautiful, you know, was on all these chat shows with men who kind of slightly sniggered at her, sort of behind the scenes that she was a one off and that actually, yeah, that's great. You know,

you can be an attractive woman. That's why you've got the book published book published you know we'll never hear from you again and you know I think for her when she finally broke through with Hollywood Wives which was her sort of big breakthrough book in America she yeah there was almost something about okay I have to kind of inhabit this character you know I have to inhabit this Jackie Collins character which will give me a sheet of you know a sort of protection around me and that and I think that enabled her to really go on and take on the her sort of critics and she laughed a lot she had a great sense of humour and she didn't take you know you've seen that clip with her and Barbara Cartland she thought it was you know she she was very very clear that a lot of people who were jumping on the bandwagon hadn't probably even got past two or three pages of reading.

Yeah, well, I mean, that's the point, isn't it? You know, your critics, you can't take them seriously if they haven't read your work. And that's a big lesson for everybody, especially in the social media era, if they haven't actually bothered to engage. And that clip that Tracy's talking about, everybody, especially in the social media era, if they haven't actually bothered to engage. And that clip that Tracy's talking about, Laura, is in the film. It's Barbara Cartman sitting down next to her and essentially saying, you know, because of work like yours, the world's coming undone, almost to paraphrase it. You can say more, but there are also you managed to get a clip of men doing it openly. Clive James, for instance, sneering about her books.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's kind of extraordinary to think that Jackie Collins was being told throughout her life that she wasn't a feminist or what she was doing wasn't a positive thing for women. I mean, it's extraordinary that she was dismissed in that way and that she was being told what feminism should be when she was defining it herself and she was dismissed in that way and that she was being told that what feminism should be when she was defining it herself and she was sharing her idea about what her brand of feminism was with with millions of women and empowering them through her stories and her

characters yeah and she does say again and again that she is a feminist in clips doesn't she she does talk about that yeah absolutely it's when you. When you see her sort of having to defend herself and looking so short saying, but I am a feminist, it's just astounding. And if you look at it and where we are today as women, and, you know, for me, hopefully when you watch the film, you know, one of the big sort of messages from it for all of us is that we don't need to be told what feminism is.

You know, as women, we can define it for ourselves, as Jackie did, and we can live our lives in the way that we want to, with freedom at the heart of it. And, you know, Jackie so brilliantly observed what was going on around her as a young woman and, you know, put those stories in her books, but changed the endings to the outcome that she would have wanted for herself and for women,

and shared that wonderful fantasy idea of feminism with her readers. I think the other thing that's incredibly powerful that comes across from the film and that I certainly didn't know and others will learn, Tracey, is, you know, she had an enormous amount of heartache and hardship very early on when she was having you, didn't she? Which, in our social media era again, a big part of people's lives today is to

let it all out and share everything yes I mean I absolutely agree I've often thought that I think if she you know that there are characters like my mum and in one sense the Jackie Collins character was one and the other was you know the very real woman at the heart of it but had there been social media somebody would have that would have been out there in the public domain that she had got married very young to a man with extreme mental health issues who had committed suicide. She did talk about it, but, you know, it wasn't defining for her. And so, yeah, she was able to keep that very private.

Yeah, I mean, she left with you, and it was an extraordinary voyage of strength, if I could put it like that, because she said, I've got to move forward with my life and own that. And actually, if I could bring it on to Oscar Lerman, who was her husband for most of her life, just an extraordinary love story there.

Really beautiful. It really made me smile watching the film. And actually, he was one of those men, rarer at the time, who not only loved her success and encouraged it, but he got her to actually finish the first manuscript, didn't he? Absolutely. Yeah. He was the ultimate feminist man. But he, yeah, he thought she was amazing and he was very comfortable in his own skin and he championed her all the way, you know, which, you know, for an old American, he was an older American man. And, you know, he met her, he was in his late 30s and she was in her middle 20s. It was, yeah, it was an extraordinary relationship to watch, actually. And she auditioned how well he could cope with you and how well he could fit into her life. Yes. So the story goes. I don't remember, but we went away on holiday and she took she had one very young suitor who she had to see which man was going to be most suitable to kind of settle down with.

So she took two holidays, one with the unsuitable suitor and one with oscar who she married very pragmatic very pragmatic i've also got to ask you tracy um about a lot of people saying they get they and they got their sex education from your mum uh were you aware of that was that a thing at school not so much i mean yes certainly at i was probably 18, 19. And yeah, it was funny. It was, she was so divorced from the two elements of herself. So on one hand, she was this kind of very down to earth mom. She really was. I mean, there was sort of no airs or graces.

On the other side, she was Jackie Collins and she would put on the hair and the makeup and the clothes. And she was, so yeah, it was an amazing kind of juxtaposition that we all, me and my sisters, grew up with. But, you know, it sort of amused me after a while. I mean, there was certainly an element of being 18, 19. You're like, ooh, especially with young guys telling you they've grown up, you know, reading your mum's books under the covers,

that sort of cliched thing. But, you know, the older you got, the more it was like, yeah, great. Did you read your mother's books under the covers that sort of cliched thing but you know the older you got the more it was like yeah great did you did you read your mom's books i did yes i've read all her books was that mandated or was that by choice that was by choice yeah no i was i'm always an avaricious reader and i read everything and i love that sort of you know comparison to thinking about feminist novels whether it's Jackie Collins or you know um Zadie Smith or Margaret Atwood you know they all talked about they all authors who drew on what they knew and she really drew on what she knew and she knew Hollywood really well so that didn't make it lesser than just because it was seemed frivolous and you know to people who haven't experienced

what her life or you know what she was able to witness. Laura, you also draw upon in the film what was made, a lot of was made of the rivalry, the perceived rivalry with her sister, Joan. What was fascinating is this relationship and this partnership and an actual proper sisterhood in some ways is how they came back in and out of each other's lives throughout their lives. Because you got a series of interviews with Joan Collins for the film. Yeah, I mean, it's an extraordinary relationship. You know, it's completely rooted in this deep love that they have for each other, but also in this competition. And they kind of almost fed off that competition between the two of them throughout their lives.

So they're just, you know, so closely intertwined with these sort of wonderful almost opposing forces of love and competitiveness. Yeah well you do see that was I mean is that something having seen the film Tracy you think it's a fair representation of it because it's also very poignant and striking that your mum comes back to London to see her sister to see Joan just before she dies. Absolutely I mean you, you know, Laura couldn't have said it. Laura did such an amazing, fantastic job with looking at a relationship in a real and proper way. All siblings have some rivalrous feelings. It's ridiculous to say that they don't, regardless of whether you're Joan or Jackie Collins. But, you know, fundamentally, they sort of endured a journey together and they were at different levels at different times.

But tremendously, yeah, tremendously loving relationship and also a complex, difficult relationship, which I think Laura depicted absolutely brilliantly. You and your sisters, you live by that. Girls can do anything. We're asking our listeners for the mottos that make their life today. Is that one of yours? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, it's a great one and my children my i've got two daughters they're absolutely younger girls they're really you know champion their grandmother absolutely 100 tracy lerman jackie's oldest daughter jackie holland's oldest daughter thank you so much for for taking us into your memories uh laura ferry who is the director of lady boss the jackie collins story thank you to. And I should say it's in cinemas from the 1st of July. Now they're also open again and on the BBC later in the year.

And if we're talking about girls can do anything and your motto is still coming in, I'll return to those in just a moment. Let's speak to some girls who really are doing anything and everything and some of the scientists and engineers of the future, shall we? My next three guests have just won the Big Bang UK Young Scientist and Engineer for their creations, hot on the heels of yesterday being International Women in Engineering Day. And while 14.5% of those working in engineering are women, that represents a rise from 12% in 2019,

nearly 200,000 more women, it is still a small number. Well, adding to those numbers potentially 17 year old kd sagano from rugby serena jacob who's 13 from bedford and sashi guy who's 15 and joins us joins us from colerain in northern ireland congratulations to you all welcome to woman's hour and i thought i'll start with you kd because at 17 you've just been named the GSK Young Engineer of the Year. Congratulations how does that feel? Thank you so much I still can't really believe. Well it's happened so you'll get to grips with that but tell us what you won the award for and it's lovely to have you on. Yeah so challenged by my grandparents to find the perfect package holiday for their 50th wedding anniversary I developed a

website which compares package holidays and suggests the one that best beats the traveller's ease using an algorithm I created. That's a lovely reason I mean how efficient of you they asked you to do this and then you came up with this and and you put it in and you find you put in your preferences and hopefully the right one comes up yeah yeah have you booked the holiday for your grandparents um because of the pandemic we couldn't manage to go abroad but we booked one in japan eventually eventually we had so much fun in that um your a levels maths further maths physics computer studies and you want to do what with all of this? Tell us. I want to do computer science in uni as well. Like winning the Big Bang competition gave me the courage to continue learning sciences. So if I can continue my work in computer science to

solve many social problems, that would be great. Well, all the best. You've already written an algorithm with one of the most important problems of our time, where to go on holiday when we're finally able to do that and get back to a bit more normality. Thank you for coming on. Let's speak to Serena, who's only 13, but you've already won Junior Engineering Award for your diabetes app. Congratulations to you. Thank you. Wonderful news.

Tell us how that works and why you thought to create it. Yeah, so I believe I created a unique product. you. Wonderful news. Tell us how that works and why you thought to create it. Yeah, so I believe I created a unique product. I have created an interactive app, which aims to recognise and reduce the risk of developing type 2 diabetes. Type 2 diabetes is the commonest metabolic disease affecting over 4.7 million people in the UK alone. And there's a stage just before you hit type 2 diabetes, known as pre-diabetes, which is a very dangerous state to be in. But as I found in my research, it's actually totally reversible if the significant lifestyle changes are made early. This is where my app comes

in. I would love for my app to become the go-to resource for healthcare professionals and patients alike. And I really got inspired when a close family friend actually developed type 2 diabetes. And so I was keen to find out more about the condition and its treatment. So I was really surprised and wowed to find out that type 2 diabetes could actually be prevented in the first place. So this inspired me to create an interactive app to actually help people recognise and reduce their risk for developing type 2 diabetes.

Amazing. I mean, Matt Hancock, I'm sure you can get hold of him. Now you've been on Women's Hour, certainly might have helped, might not. Even the Queen's worrying about Matt Hancock, the health secretary yesterday. What are you going to do in the future? I mean, the only way is up, of course, you've already created an app and won an award at the age of 13. But what do you want to do with this knowledge that you're building on? Well, as Kayleigh said, I actually really enjoy computer science myself. And I'd love to have a career in the cybersecurity sector of computer science.

I love problem solving and innovating. And I love learning new skills. Well, all the best with that. I'm sure I'll be interviewing you again when you've developed something else on the way to becoming a cybersecurity chief. Let's bring in Sashi at this point. We've won the Sandtech Developing Future Communities Award because of a mask. Why have you created a new mask? Yes. So COVID-19, as we all know, it still hasn't gone away. So I designed a mask insert which can be put inside a reusable fabric mask,

making it more comfortable to wear than the surgical mask. I believe that this physical barrier could be more effective in preventing the spread of COVID-19 than a surgical mask. So this is because, as I understand it, you were having a look at how your friends were wearing masks and not doing very well with it. Exactly. So I'm sure everyone has seen them, people that wear their masks below the nose, below the chin, hanging off one ear. And to be honest, there's no use in wearing a mask at all if you're going to wear it like that.

No, there's not. I mean, there's been all sorts of funny things I'm sure you've seen on social media comparing to if you wore your underwear the wrong way. So you do need to wear your mask properly. Are you hoping, so it's got several layers and one of the layers is cotton in your mask that you've created and more breathable and better at what? Tell us about that. Yes. So after creating my own means of testing because of COVID, I created a mask that is two layers of cotton and then in between is a layer of 70 denier tights because it had a good droplet penetration and was very breathable. So I reposed this mask, but after reading a German study and analysing my own results, I realised that all woven materials let virus-sized particles through. And hence, I created a mask insert.

You can put it inside any mask, really, and it makes a mask easier to breathe because it reduces the pressure at the lips and guides the air sideways. Amazing. And you're only 15. What are you going to do next? What do you want to study and then become? Well I absolutely love science and I'm really considering a career in medicine or bioengineering. Well I wish you all the best. Again I'm sure I'll probably be interviewing you too. All of you will be back here on Women's Air and elsewhere I'm sure in the future. Thank you so much for coming on. Congratulations to Katie, Serena and Sashi there for their respective awards. And good for us to all hear about what's coming down the pipe and some of their amazing creations.

We did start the programme asking you for your life mottos. You've not disappointed. And the first one we started with was from the late Jackie Collins. Girls can do anything. And from that discussion, you can't really argue with it. One here, Anne says, a friend once quoted a Chinese saying, which I've never forgotten. I love this. Worry adds nothing to tomorrow. It merely robs today of its strength. I'm going to get that on a tattoo. I might even get it written on my head. No one makes you feel inferior without your consent is attributed to Eleanor Roosevelt

or someone calling themselves Eleanor Roosevelt who's texted in. Do what you can. Be what you are. Shine like a glowworm if you can't be a star. In brackets, Alison Nash. Inspiration never visits the lazy from David Hockney. They keep coming in. Please do keep them coming in because it's a lovely thing to be able to share. And it's bringing a smile to our faces but there is new data out today and just following on from my discussion there about masks and of course covid not having gone anywhere yet even though the the fight is on and the vaccine numbers are going up there is a new set of new data out today suggesting an estimated 2 million UK adults

will have experienced coronavirus symptoms for 12 weeks or more. This doubles the number estimated by the Office for National Statistics last month and the results confirm again that persistent Covid symptoms are more common in women than men. So two million UK adults with as what it's been called long Covid. These numbers clearly pose a huge problem for the NHS. In response, the Health Secretary Matt Hancock has released a statement recognising the impact Long Covid is having on people's lives and highlighting a £50 million fund for research from the government into better treatments. Good news for the future, perhaps. But how does this news and this recognition and the number of people now sort of named or included in this data set. How does that

feel to someone living with long Covid now? I'm joined by one of our listeners, Emily, who appeared on Women's Hour last year as part of a special programme on women and long Covid. Emily, I've got to ask you first of all, how are you now? Oh, hello, Emma. Thank you for asking. I'm still ill. I'm okay, but I'm still ill ill i have good days and i have bad days what symptoms are you still experiencing i still experience really crushing fatigue um joint pain and muscle pain and i still have a few cognitive issues as well where i lose it lose words in the middle of a sentence. So yeah, it's quite frustrating. Yes, and debilitating. And I'm so incredibly sorry, if I can also say that as well.

Thank you. What kind of treatment and support have you been getting over the past year and a bit? So the last 13 months, I've had really, really good support from my GP. My GP, Dr. Little, is amazing. She checks in with me regularly. She's been to visit me. She owns me and just, you know, we're trying lots of things. She's also put a lot of time and energy into getting me seen at a long COVID clinic at a time,

because back when I first became ill they were only seeing patients who'd been hospitalised. I was never ill enough to be hospitalised thankfully but yeah so she was contacting them to see if they would see me they finally did see me and I have been seen at the long COVID

clinic in my city. But what can they give you? What can they do for you? Because we've just said £50 million is going to go into trying to help people. But right now, is there anything? No, there isn't. They actually don't know what to do with us. I love that you can still laugh. That's going with our mottos today about being tough, I suppose.

Because if you don't laugh, you just cry and crumble. Yeah, you have to face your fear and do it anyway. There's yours. But no, I mean... That's mine, yeah. Today, obviously, with these numbers, we wanted to catch up with you anyway,

but this is the reason to do so, I suppose, today. How does it make you feel that there is an estimated two million people in this situation in the country? It makes me feel incredibly sad. I'm really lucky.

I've had a great GP and I've also had a great family who've been able to support me. But there are a lot of people who are going through this who live alone. I don't know how I'd have got through the last 15 months if I lived alone. It's been pretty horrid. So, yeah, I feel really sad that there's a large, large number of people.

But I also feel really pleased that people are now starting to believe people. Has that been a thing? That if you say to somebody, I've got long COVID, they look at you a bit like, of course you have. Yeah, that has been a thing even people who are doctors have gone well that isn't the thing now it's coming out it is but you know way a while ago several months ago before there's been a lot of media stuff about it um and i know i'm part of a facebook group, Long Covid Support Group, and there's thousands of us on there. And I know from posts that my fellow people who still have symptoms are posting that they're still getting people not believing them. I was going to say what's different about this study, which has led to the data set, is that rather than saying, do you have long COVID, they've asked whether people have any of the 29 symptoms 12 weeks later, allowing them to capture those

who maybe don't class themselves as having long COVID. Do you think there are people out there who don't realise they've got it but are feeling not quite themselves? Yes, yes, I definitely do. I was speaking to your researcher earlier. For example, I had a conversation with my window cleaner who I was paying my bill. And he knew I'd been ill

because he'd seen me answering the door to pay my bill in my dressing gown, dragging myself out of my bed. So he was asking how I was doing. I told him I'd had long COVID. And when he came to see me last night, he said, you know, I was thinking after our last conversation, you know I'd had long COVID and when I when he came to see me last night um he said you know I had I was thinking after our last conversation you know I had the COVID um then I had uh and then I was really really tired and I was just I was so tired and felt really low and

was you know sleeping a lot and I thought it was just I needed a holiday so I think maybe I've had long COVID and I agreed with him. It's kind of this silent thing going through people's lives. It is a silent thing. I just want to go back to the thing where you say you go to these long COVID clinics and there isn't anything that can be done at the moment. So what happens at the clinic? What do they say to you?

Well, at the clinic, I mean mean i'm saying there isn't anything that can be done they can't just cure it there isn't a pill they can give you that makes you better magically and it all goes away it's time and it's what you're told um you're also told you know yes you're believed and you're listened to um but also for many people who've had it as long as me 13 months there wasn't testing for people who um were experiencing these symptoms unless you were hospitalized so i've had doctors say but we can't actually prove that you had covid so it might be something else i'm saying well if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck it's probably going to be a duck in the middle of a pandemic

um so you know there's all of that as well but um at the long covid clinic sorry to answer your question they have um a multi-disciplinary team um and they look at your symptoms and decide which person you'd be best to see so because i didn't thankfully i didn't have any many issues with my breathing and with my lungs um i was seen by the infectious diseases um specialist um who was looking at what if there are any other things and what they do they're very thorough they check to see if there are any other things that could be causing any of the issues that you're experiencing you also have time with a physio as well um to see what your physical abilities are you have time with a psychologist so they can see

if your cognition has been affected, which mine have. And then after that, I've been referred to a health psychologist, who I have to say has been amazing. She's just brilliant. That's good to hear. Because, of course, also to say, as you're just starting to say, they are there to refer to specialists who can perhaps help in some way but not overall sort the picture as you say because there isn't yeah they're not all in the long

covid clinic you know how long i know you've not been able to work and you mentioned the support of of family being absolutely critical and others who are not in that situation have you got any idea of of when to expect life and yourself to go back to how you were i don't think i'm ever going to be back to how i was um and they can't give me a timeline because they just don't know it's a new disease is the answer you get we don't know um so that's quite hard to deal with psychologically so you have to kind of be positive and think well okay let's look at how far I've come you know I there were there were months that I couldn't get out of bed there were sometimes where my daughters and my husband were having to help me go to the bathroom

you know I can now do that myself I can go out the house by myself I can walk by myself I pay for it later you know I'm, very tired and I have to sleep. But, you know, it's all about pacing as well. And I'm sure a lot of your listeners who have long COVID will know all about this as well. Well, I think also to your point and seeing some of the messages, just today hearing that there are estimated two million UK adults with long COVID is also going to verify their experiences and validate them and make them feel like they're not making it up and it's all in their head and you coming on and I'm sorry if this has made you tired or you have to pay for it later but it's very appreciated that you you

wanted to come back and talk to us and talk to me. Oh definitely we need to get we need to get that message out there and I want to speak for the people who don't have voice. Emily we'll keep in touch with you I hope your progression continues and you only keep regaining some of your strength Emily there with long Covid and a message very interesting just to bring up here on a different subject I've had ME for over 40 years and the symptoms that are similar to those describing long Covid perhaps ME sufferers will now be. I hope long COVID sufferers don't suffer for as long as I have. And also, I do feel it's a good moment in light of, you know, Emily sharing her motto there and how she's getting through to come back to some of yours. Just a couple more here I wanted to get out. My words are, whilst you're holding a grudge, they are out dancing. A mantra I learned from my bestie and it's help me keep on keeping on we will a kiss there no

names I can't say who you are uh Eileen good morning life is tough my darling but so are you loving these loving these we need to get these all saved and put them on various things mugs t-shirts the works but there you go we have been talking about covid the impact on the health but let's now talk about what's been going on on people's lives and their plans. And actually, one of you got in touch with us to ask for a clarification around what's going on for those who are planning a wedding here in the UK at the moment. An estimated 50,000 weddings were due to take place in the month following lockdown rules being relaxed on what was meant to be the 21st of June. Thousands of those were ceremonies that had already been

postponed for over a year, but advice on what you can and can't do has been changing. And some of you, one in particular, really wanted clarification. Olivia Knight's on hand to help us. She owns Patchwork, a wedding gifts registry, which is part of the campaign group, hashtag whataboutweddings. Olivia, thanks for joining us. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Is it true that for all weddings, couples have to write a risk assessment? It is. And you'll be fined £10,000 if that risk assessment doesn't include everything in the government guidance. And we've seen risk assessments for couples going on for 25 pages. I mean, it's this kind of thing that a venue or a wedding planner will be very able and capable of doing.

But for couples, that's a huge added labour and a really big risk, yeah, going ahead with weddings. And particularly if the guidance is so confusing and contradictory. So the basics are what? You can get married now with how many people and what can you do? Yeah, I mean, I literally couldn't answer that question very quickly for you because it is so difficult and so confusing. But I would say a couple of top line things. In the you can sorry in England you can get married and with unrestricted

numbers but you still have restrictions on venues so although people in the in in England don't have to organize social distancing necessarily at a wedding and can have unlimited numbers the venue that is hosting that wedding still has to accommodate social distancing. So if it's a venue that can accommodate 200 people usually, it can only have 100 people usually. So even though the numbers have been lifted in England, you're still in practice having to deal with restrictions, with numbers and particularly according to the venues that you're at.

It's different, slightly different in Scotland than Wales. And worth just pointing out that differentiation there. And the rules on drinking, you have to sit down even if it's outside. Is that right? I mean, it's ridiculous. You have to be served at a table to drink and you cannot be standing to drink unless you're in a private garden. So again, slightly different rules around private gardens, but very, very confusing. And basically, if you sit in your seat and drink and don't notice you're getting drunk, you can sit and stay there. You definitely can't drink. Standing up, which might mean that by the time you try and stand up at the end of the evening, you find it hard to.

That's a whole other discussion, but we're just trying to go through, I suppose, what there is. And of course, you're sharing your view on that. Some may say, you know, these are the government's attempts to stop people from breaching social distancing rules dancing um outside inside anything at all so advised against dancing so it's not illegal to dance but it is illegal to have a dance floor so dance floors are banned dancing advised against you can have a dj but they can't get the crowd on the dance floor. Right. And in terms of different, you talked about the different parts of the UK. Do you think that you also, there was something this week talking about risk assessment, that the bride or the groom have to ensure the rules are being followed or someone from the wedding party? Oh, yeah, absolutely. That is what the risk assessment is on the heads, if you like,

of the couple. And that's why there's also a fine in place. So you have to be able to afford a £10,000 fine if anything is breached, obviously unintentionally, because all of the couples, as you can imagine, care most for their friends and family and loved ones and want to make them as safe as possible as the main priority of a wedding going ahead. And 83% of couples are already getting their guests to isolate and test in advance to make sure they're not COVID positive. Well, I should say, check on the government website for where you live. And also a big recent change has been outdoor civil weddings and partnership ceremonies being legalised for

the first time. Olivia Knight, thank you for that. Statement from the Department of Business says, we understand how difficult the pandemic has been for individuals and businesses, especially those in the wedding industry, which is why we've lifted the cap on the maximum number of wedding attendees and that outdoor ceremonies are to be legalised for the first time. But we have to ensure we're putting the safety of the British public first. And that's why it's right to continue looking at the latest data. Well, if you do manage to get married, what are you going to wear? And we specifically asked, what if it wasn't your first time?

Marjorie Wallace, pioneering journalist, broadcaster and chief executive of the mental health charity SANE, recently got married at the age of 78 to the business tycoon John Mills. And you did it in white, Marjorie. Yes, yes, we did do it in white. I was determined to have a white wedding. My first wedding to my Polish count um was a very sort of secret affair we only had six guests i think i wore a cheap sort of then laura ashley skirt and um i had a two and a half year old son in my arms and it's all a bit bohemian so this time i was determined it would be white and white i think I think, is really symbolic. We all think it's about purity and virginal,

but it actually came with Queen Victoria. And she had the idea that you had your wedding dress, but you had to re-style it to wear it again. So I'm wearing it for you today. You can't see it. Well, I can. I can because we're on Zoom. So I have the pleasure.

You look absolutely wonderful, if I may say. But white means an awful lot emma i mean i i wrote a little poem to my um husband which could i just quote it why white means so much said i give to myself this wedding day and in the autumn of our years all doubting past to cherish and protect until the last with hopes as fresh and white as flowers in May. And again, that symbolising of the freshness and whiteness. And you see, I noticed I changed the vowels. We changed the vowels because we're so old that we didn't think obey was quite right.

So we've changed it to protect each other because I think, you know, with the zoom of rains coming up, protection's probably going to be the answer i actually was not all that popular one or two people said by goodness me you're wearing white don't you think off-white would be more appropriate after your kind of life lovely well hannah hannah davis is also with us who regularly writes for bridal titles such as you and your wedding and hitched hannah there's quite a lot of outdated information when it's your second time or your third or your fourth, even including don't show your arms. It's the kind of thing, to be honest, Emma, that drives me up the wall.

If you Google second time around bride, second time around weddings, you just get lists of the most ridiculous rules. And the whole point about weddings is they're about love and family and celebration and excitement. They're not about sitting there saying, well, I suppose I'd better cover my cleavage and cover my arms. It's ludicrous. It's ludicrous. So some of the trends can be, I suppose, as broad as anything then on that note. Yeah, I think if it's your second, third, fourth wedding, you can wear pretty much anything. It's about your venue. It's about your personal style. I think if you're, say, a bit older than the UK average for getting married, you're likely to be more confident in your style. You might not be as swayed by trends, or you might love trends and just go for something

straight from the catwalk. I think the only rule is when it comes to second weddings, probably don't wear what you wore to your first wedding. Although a lot of people have been in touch. I was going to say, Marjorie, I love the way, by the way, you just slipped in there when I was married to my first husband, the Count. You were married to a Count, we should say, in case people were thinking they didn't hear that right. Yes, I never divorced him, a Polish count, yes. But what I did, we also, I thought, well, I can't have a wedding veil.

But then I thought, well, what we would do is take the masks that we're talking about earlier in the programme of COVID, but make them into something different. So we got in some jewelled masks from Venice for the carnival, carnival masks. So we thought COVID to carnival. So the Bride of Possession, we came down with my grandson, my daughter and everything, all in jeweled masks. People were sort of muttering, saying, is he going to get the right woman?

But it was a sort of way of making it like into, he wore actually a sort of cravat, a blue silk cravat, open neck shirt, and he looked like a gondolier. Eat your heart out, Casanova. He looked amazing. So the whole thing was a kind of more of a celebration. We actually sang to each other, True Society, True Love, and everybody joined in.

I think we might have broken the rules, but don't tell anyone. It's all right, you're only on live radio. 30 only, we were allowed. Right, no, well, yeah, singing has been something that seems to have been out of bounds. Hannah, I have to say, another trend, people saying, just building on the first wedding and the dress you may have worn,

and even now, you know, only my wedding was, you know, eight years ago or whatever it is now. You do look back and think, why did I wear that? Because you were a slightly different person at the time. Absolutely. And that's what's great about your second, third or fifth wedding is that it is your chance to do something different. And that's partly because your style will have evolved. But it's also because weddings unfortunately come with a whole bunch of shoulds. I sort of call it the should list. You know, you must have a cake, you must do

this. So once you've got all of those shoulds out of the way and you're getting married again, then you can just pick the things that you really love. Marjorie, a final word to you. Congratulations again. It's very recent. You're a newlywed. Is it different this time in the sense of, because you started to refer to that, because you're not going to be thinking about the rest of your whole life in quite the same way. You're thinking differently. Yes, it is different. That's why I wanted a church wedding. When John proposed me, I said one condition is in church.

He said, well, that's my condition too. We wanted to have some spiritual framework to the vows so that they would mean something. And we wanted to have something as a legacy to put down music, moonlight, love and romance. And poetry, which we just shared with us there, which was beautiful. I am going to have to leave it there. But thank you for putting the outfit back on. You look wonderful. And it's wonderful to hear the story as well. And huge congratulations. Vivian says here, why not get married like Boris Johnson and have a jolly good party when this horror's over? Weddings are Victorian

and for the relatives it's the bride's day all in white. Very expensive. Funerals are much more fun. Vivian, thanks for that. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Are you fed up with the news?

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No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.