Woman's Hour - Broadcaster Clemency Burton-Hill on learning to speak again. Plus Katie Price talks about her son Harvey.

Episode Date: January 23, 2021

Clemency Burton-Hill gives her first broadcast interview to Emma Barnett since she suffered a brain haemorrhage a year ago. She talks about how music has helped her ongoing recovery, and how she has learnt to speak again. Sindiso Khumalo & Dr Christine Checinska on the V&A museum's African fashion exhibition, Plus Katie Price on her son Harvey who was born with Septo-optic Dysplasia, a rare disorder that affects brain function. Her family have lived their lives in the public eye for more than 15 years - and now in a new BBC One documentary, we see her having to make tough decisions about his future as he turns 18. There’s been a surge in calls to domestic abuse services in the pandemic as couples spend more time at home together - the majority of calls coming from women. For many victims and survivors, work is usually a place of respite. We hear from Business Minister Paul Scully who's written to employers urging them to be a bridge between their workers, spot domestic abuse and offer the support they need. And the lives of Irish women in the US in 19th and why they were called Bad BridgetsPresenter Anita Rani Producer Rabeka Nurmahomed

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi everybody, Anita here, welcoming you to today's Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the weekend edition of Woman's Hour. On the programme today, we'll be discussing why talking about money is still such a taboo subject among women. Katie Price tells us about her son Harvey and the difficulties of parenting a young adult with special needs. If he gets agitated, he might bang a hole in the wall and then he'll wet the bed. I mean, these are all constant stuff that I haven't really spoke about. But obviously in the documentary, I wanted to do like a real factual

what it's like behind the scenes. We'll hear about the women who left their homes in Ireland for a new start in America, only to fall into a life of crime. And African fashion, the women behind making traditional garments more functional. She put a zipper in the Nigerian iro, which is a kind of a wrapped skirt, is the way that I'd describe it.

And when we spoke to her, she said, well, it's just not using women's time appropriately. If you've got to, you're in an office and you've got to keep retying your earring. So she put a zipper in the earring and made it more wearable, more useful to women on the go. And we'll find out how you might be able to help

the V&A with a new exhibition. But first, a year ago, Clemency Burtonhill, an ex-BBC presenter now living in New York, was at work when suddenly her speech started slurring and she collapsed. She was rushed to the Brooklyn Hospital Centre, where an emergency scan revealed a bleed in her left frontal lobe. She was only 39. She was having a massive brain haemorrhage.

She came out of her coma after 17 days, but had lost the ability to speak. In her first broadcast interview, she told Emma what it was like learning to talk again. You just start at the beginning. For example, it's really interesting that you don't just get it back. Obviously, there are things that you do get back quickly, but say in the first sort of few months, it should make me so, so unbelievably frustrated. Like one day or even one hour, I could pour my word. And then like the next minute, I couldn't. So it's not a linear progression my younger son is he was just one

when it happened but it's now a top two so he is learning to speak and there are parallels in my language, but of course, it's completely different as well, because in my head, there's no problem with my speech. It's getting to the words, my speech impaired. And I hate the fact that that's how people describe it, like deficits and impaired. I mean, I know that people understand the word and the sort of language. Surely there's a better word like, you know, than... I love that as someone who is battling with words, you're still wanting the very best word for your situation. You are nothing but consistently ambitious, which I've always respected about you, Clemmie.

I have to ask you, this is somebody who has a great love and knowledge of music. Has music helped in your healing generally? I think there's two answers to that, if not many more. In a way, music has been, like my love of language, I guess, like the most amazing and motivating factor in my recovery so yes of course I think this is sort of like physical um benefit of music in my brain in my healing but it's actually sometimes just too painful and too raw I've been someone who my whole life have relied on music and not just classical music all music you know as a teenager like in my bedroom, like weeping over a boy. Like, of course, I, you know, I'm so grateful that music has always been there more than anything else,

consistently my whole life. So in a way, is that bittersweet? There's a painfulness to it because you don't have what you had. You're so right. That's the word, bittersweet. There's a there's a painfulness to it because you don't have what you had. You're so right. That's the that's the word. Bittersweet. Sometimes it was too raw. I don't know why. I suppose it was like my my former life. And then now that's this new reality. And they weren't computing there was no pop song or like soul ballad or classical you know Bach or whatever there was was nothing that could be more than this new reality. You talk there about the rawness. And I just wondered if you, and I know a lot of what you want to, and you're already doing in your answers and the way that you're being

so honest with us. And a lot of what you want to do is're already doing in your answers and the way that you're being so honest with us and a lot of what you want to do is about the positivity the luck the the fortune that you have and still be here and be with your sons and be with your husband and have your family and friends but it is also an incredibly dark thing that you have been through I mean the literally the world went dark for for 17 days year ago. And I just wonder if you could take us as far as you would into the depths of that. I mean, how has it felt when it hasn't felt lucky or something you could find the positives? Because you are someone who was racing around New York, million miles an, with your family, with your friends, and the whole world to play for.

It's been, of course, unbelievably sad sometimes and definitely difficult from a recovery point of view because it's recovery is not linear with a brain injury and I'm so used to and I think most people are like you know if I do this then that that'll happen like this doesn't work like that some days I literally had no words and I thought yesterday I could I could do this and I am someone who doesn't have faith in terms of like religious faith but before I woke up of my coma, I had the most extraordinary experience. I mean, to make it easier to sort of explain, because I can't really explain, but I know absolutely that at that point I was given a choice this way it's going to be very hard are you sure you want to go this way or if you go this one it's going to be very easy and it's going to be fine and I don't want it to sound like some people might like choose not to live and like I don't know no no I don't think it does sound like that but what you're saying is you remember strongly there were two options open to you before you came out of your coma somewhere in your subconscious

yeah and the way that could be just pain-free almost, and that would have been death, the end, or there's the other way, which is waking up and facing recovery. And it's going to be hard, but it's your choice. And the amazing thing was that I was given that choice. It sounds so weird and crazy, but it is what happened. And when you woke up, what was your first memory? I was sort of like, this can't be, like, I just had a crazy dream or like a crazy nightmare.

Like, I can't wait to tell my husband about that because it's so crazy and I'd be like oh my god there's a hospital there's beeping and I can't move anything and where am I who am I what's what's going on and course, then the point that I'm going to speak and I can't speak anything. I can't even make a noise at that point. How are your boys doing? How are your two sons doing? Well, my boys are kind of amazing because my husband is very good at like make it like not normal because again there's a pandemic raging outside and they know something happened I mean especially the older one it's such a balance for everything I have to work out like a brain injury like this is incredibly stressful um obviously I'm so lucky I have a wonderful friend we're sort of a team. They are the primary reason that I keep going.

Clemency Burton-Hill was talking to Emma there, so much to take away from that remarkable story. Now, a report by the Women's Budget Group found that young women have been hit hardest by unemployment during the pandemic. In fact, a third of all young women work in the sectors least able to function during lockdown, like hospitality, leisure and tourism. Throw into that an already existing gender pay gap, and then an ethnic pay gap for young women, and you don't end up with a great picture. So how do we help young women acquire the right tools

to look after themselves financially in a time where that feels almost impossible? Selina Flavius is the author of Black Girl Finance Let's Talk Money and Iona Bain is founder of Young Money Blog and author of Own It. She told me what the financial picture is looking like for women. If you're a young woman and in particular if you're a black, Asian and ethnic minority woman, you are the most likely to have suffered economically as a result of COVID-19. So you mentioned those statistics from the Women's Budget Group. But the picture is also backed up by other groups like the Institute for Fiscal Studies, and a couple of other statistics which may prove how difficult it's been for young women,

particularly young BAME women over the past year. Around 1.5 million young women have lost income since the pandemic began. And that was before the second and third lockdowns. And about 69 percent of young women who are claiming universal credit are doing so for the first time. I mean, the reasons for this are deep and complex, and we could debate them all day. But the easily identifiable reasons are that young women are not only working in those industries that are most likely to have been shut down, but also because young women are more likely to work part time, to be on short term contracts.

So they're the most disposable in the labour market, if you like. And also, they're more likely to take on the bulk of childcare responsibilities. So they may have had to go on furlough or leave work to look after children during this period. And that can have a scarring effect, not just on their job prospects. As we know, in economics, there's this phenomenon known as scarring, whereby if you spend time out of the workforce, that can be very damaging for your long-term prospects, but it can also be very damaging for your finances. So we not only have the gender income gap, but we have the gender investment gap, the gender saving gap, and the gender pension gap. So it's not the case for all young women. There are some who have managed to pivot into new careers, keep working, and actually consolidate their finances, not least because

they haven't been spending money in the same way as they used to. But overall, I think we need to remember that it has been a really, really tough year for so many young women out there. I'm going to bring Selena into this because you've written this book, it's a financial self-help book, isn't it? I mean, why did you decide that now is the right time to write this? I set up Black Girl Finance in the first place after looking at the statistics. So some of the statistics that Iona mentioned around the gender and ethnicity pay gap. So it's why I kind of created the platform in the first place. And then also I had read loads of personal finance books, you know, most of them written by,

you know, white men, white men from the US. Slowly, there have been more personal finance books written by women in the UK. But in terms of a kind of black female perspective, I had to kind of look at books from the US. So there's loads of female personal finance books by US women. And when the books start talking about 401ks or the student finance system in the US that's when I kind of glaze over because obviously you know in the UK we have pensions, we have ISAs, we have a different system set up so it just felt like there was something missing so I wanted to write the book for women who kind of look like me you know ordinary black women from south london east london um with parents who have migrated as well i talk about kind of my mum's experience of coming over here

from the caribbean um to the uk and i just think it it gives a different kind of lens to personal finance um in terms of that kind of cultural aspect and the cultural influences and um that shape our kind of financial habits. Yeah that's all really interesting because you do talk a lot about culture because you talk about your own upbringing and that you really didn't have the language and the tools to speak about money so just explain why that was. So it's really funny actually I had an extract from the book in the Guardian and just over the weekend and my mum called me and she was cracking up she was laughing her head off because um one of the things I speak about is the fact that you know she came over here and no one spoke to her about money so how to save invest she had

to kind of just wing it and get on with it and she did a great job and she got herself on the property ladder and constantly worked and you know she was able to pass on that kind of work ethic and you know wanted to get on the property ladder was something that I wanted to do at quite a young age as well because of her example that she set but in terms of how to do it and in terms of doing it with any kind of fanfare she didn't speak about money and she called me laughing because when she read the article that kind of outlined her journey and seeing it in print I guess for the first time for her you know she laughed because she said Selena you know one of the things that we never spoke to two of the things that we never spoke to our children about was money you didn't speak to

them about money and you also didn't tell them um your age as well so um so what impact did that have on you and your own finance you said you got on the property ladder but did did it affect you yeah absolutely because I talk about it now but at the time there was a whole load of secrecy. So when I first went out into the working world, like I said, I really wanted to get on the property ladder and managed to achieve that. But I still can't say that I knew what I was doing in terms of, you know, saving, budgeting, investing was a complete kind of no-go area for me. And that's because there were no conversations about it. I talk about in the book the fact that when I hit my kind of no-go area for me and that's because there were no conversations about it I

talk about in the book the fact that when I hit my kind of rock bottom I didn't speak to anyone about it because you just don't talk about you know particularly when things go wrong you don't talk about and you don't necessarily talk about it also when things go right when you're doing really well um just the openness and and talking about money it's just not something done within our within the culture in a Caribbean household. Iona, you're nodding. How do we overcome that, Iona? Well, firstly, we have to acknowledge that if we have had these factors in our upbringing, in our background that maybe make us feel that money is a taboo subject or a cause for shame,

then we have to face up to that because a really interesting statistic that I came across a while ago was that we tend to form most of our attitudes to money by the age of eight which is quite scary but actually we need to bear in mind that we can overcome that and we can develop a healthier more balanced relationship with money and Selene has shown that in her work and the fact that she has gone through her own journey and we obviously need to be much more honest and have these open conversations. But I think women in particular need to perhaps see that what I call big money is for them. It's not just for the guys, it's for them. Because traditionally, I think that women have been often confined to the realm of household finances, this idea that women know how to keep a tight grip on the purse strings, that they know how to manage the day-to-day budget, but that really we need to leave pensions

and investments and all the really big stuff to the blokes. And what was really interesting was in the course of my career, I've spoken to a lot of financial advisors, most of whom are men, and it soon became apparent that actually most of them never came into contact with women professionally from one month to the next. Most of their clients are men. And when they see their clients, they don't bring their wives or partners along with them. And if they do come into the building, the wives and girlfriends tend to sit outside in the reception area and talk to the receptionists and have tea and biscuits. They're not brought into the room to have the really important conversations.

And then we wonder why women tend to retire with a much smaller pension pot. One study reckoned the average pension pot of a woman in the UK is about £35,000, as opposed to a man's pension pot, which is about £179,000. Right. So what can we do to change that? How can we all kind of give us some top tips? I'm going to come to you as well, Selina, but Iona, what's your top tip? So anyone listening who's fuming now at the thought that they're not there. Well, firstly, I would say just engage and get involved and start thinking not just about the short term, but the long term too,

because your future is going to happen and you want to be ready for it. You want to be financially independent wherever possible and build up what one of your listeners called a running away fund. And to do that, you need to save, invest and maximise your pension contributions wherever possible. And Selina, very quickly, top three tips or top tip. Absolutely. You know, identify your your lessons that have been given to you by family culture and you know ask yourself are these lessons serving me so you know if you're from a background whereby you know all of the assets are in the mail in the

mail name make sure your name's on the kind of deed the mortgage deed all of those kind of conversations as well like Iona said make sure you're involved and taking charge of those. Selina Flavius and Iona Bain there encouraging us all to get on top of our finances. Now Katie Price has lived her life in the spotlight, first rising to public attention as a glamour model, then a reality TV star, author and even horse rider. Her choice of career means her family have shared the glaring spotlight. Now, most of us will be aware that Katie's eldest child, Harvey,

was born with septo-optic dysplasia, a rare disorder that affects brain function, hormones and vision, and has several other special needs. Harvey has recently turned 18, an important milestone in any parent's relationship with their child, but especially for a mother making decisions about a young adult with specific and constant needs. In a new BBC One documentary out next week,

Katie and Harvey explore the options, ultimately with him going to live in a residential college. I've never really gone into detail about it, but anyone out there who's got anyone who looks after or cares for anyone with disabilities, you know it's not an easy job, even to get out the house. So basically, he wakes everyone up at night because that's part of his condition so it's always disturbed sleep and because of his pride of willies

you know that in the morning it looks like he's at a party for one because he goes raids the cupboards to find whatever food he can find um if he gets agitated he might bang a hole in the wall or and then he'll wet the bed. I mean, these are all constant stuff that I haven't really spoke about. But obviously in the documentary, I wanted to do like a real factual what it's like behind the scenes. And not for sympathy or nothing like that. And I do still protect Harvey's privacy in the way that when he kicks off,

I don't film him having a full meltdown because I don't I don't feel I have to do that I think you see enough in the program how challenging it is and on a day-to-day life you know he has these meds six times a day they keep him alive and it also controls his behavior um he's very challenging but it's also very rewarding and I would not change him for anything one of the things you said in the program and I think it'd be good to get more detail on is and you mentioned one of his other conditions there because he's got several is that he has surprised you over the years hasn't he with what he's been able to do could you give us an example well yes so for

example like the doctor said him never walk or talk because obviously I had a natural birth with him. It was a normal, healthy born baby. And just to make it short in case people don't know everything, I found out when he was about six weeks old that he was blind. And then as he got older, then I found out it was SOD, which is septic optic dysplasia. It's to do with the pituitary gland, which is at the front line of the brain, and that's what controls everything in your body. He's cortisol deficient. If people don't know what that means, it's like adrenaline.

Say, like, if you're running for a bus, and, you know, you're trying to run, and you get there, and you're, like, out of breath, and you've got the cortisol in your body to, you know, bring you back to normal, where he hasn't got that adrenaline. So if he bangs his head or has an accident he's at high risk so um he has to go to hospital he's also got tick disorder um prada willies opposite deficit disorder that's behavior adhd behavior

and he's also got autism um and and you know, not being able to walk. But I was just going to say not being able to walk or talk. Those things haven't come to pass. He has been able to do those things and continue to surprise you and the doctors. Exactly. So I always say to mums out there, I know it's always stressful when your child gets diagnosed with something, but always try and be optimistic because things can change.

They have with Harvey, you know, he was blind. When I say blind, he was blind, could not see anything. So do with his optic nerve, which still hasn't changed when you go to like the hospital, when we go to Moorfields. But I think when you stimulate them, it's all about stimulation, just things that you do to help and now he can see colors things like that and I just think for some parents out there they might not like it that I'm going to say it sometimes people think if they've got a disability and it's easy just to put them somewhere just put them in a corner because they think they're not

going to be able to do anything. Whereas in my case, because my family and me, we're quite, you know, we're not like that. We do everything we can to help stimulate Harvey, make sure, you know, take him to places, sound places. Well, and he's got four siblings, we should say. So there's a lot of stimulation, I'm sure, for him to have. Can I ask you specifically about the time we're living in now, not related to the film?

Has Harvey's care been affected by the pandemic, by lockdown? Absolutely. So, like, the argument at the moment is he should be at school because he's residential Monday to Friday. He's been doing that for a year and a half just for his sake. Because otherwise, if he's at home, he kicks off in the morning and he knows if he kicks off, he won't go in the car to go to school. So he is at residential.

Now, they're saying because of COVID, this and that, we all know it's high risk and he is on the high risk, but they should have things in place for him to go there. That's what's paid for. So if the carers aren't there for him, then they have to try and come here to homeschool. But we're basically saying, if he's ill at home, you don't send him away.

So why should it be any different there? So he hasn't been able, has he not been able to get his usual care during lockdown? No, I mean, I've got him now. I'm working now and I'm here with him now looking after him and I'm homeschooling the other two kids which is fine but it's stressful because I'm trying to work and he's not getting the right education that he should be getting just to reflect on something else you do say in the film for for the last year and a half he has

been doing residential this was also looking at what he's going to do beyond being 18 you said in the film he moved to the residential option because you'd reached a crisis point what was that crisis point yeah so the crisis point last uh it was about a year and a half was the point that my windows were getting smashed every morning and it's danger for him because he wanted to be with me all the time and he knew because he was big and strong that he'd smash a window and then the driver wouldn't have him in the car because he'd go and smash the window screen of the car or they start attacking the driver hold a minute half and he'd do that because he knew if he did that he knew he'd be at home with me because they wouldn't take him to school. And it was getting to the point.

And then he'd be waking the kids up all the time. And then he'd go for the kids. And it was just like a danger to him, not fair on the kids, because you don't want them worried or anything like that. So then it was crisis. So I called socials, like the social people around me, and said, look, this is really bad. I called Morsley Hospital, who do the behaviour,

saying, look, this is crisis now. It's Moresley Hospital, who do the behaviour, saying, look, this is crisis now. It's really affecting everyone. It's affecting Harvey going to school. I need help. What can we do? Everyone did say to me, like teachers, my mum and doctors said it would be good for him to go residential because he's there. But it was me that

didn't want him to go because I didn't want Harvey to think that I'm getting taken off. No, and he's enjoying it enormously, which you can see. You know, it looks it looks brilliant. And I know that that's what you're trying to achieve with the next stage of his life. I was surprised to read that you had received some hate for the decision around the next stage of his life to go for more residential to try and help with his independence can you tell us what some people had said to you uh i can talk about the trolling all

day no but just give us a flavor of because i can't i can't imagine it well this is thing a newspaper said he's going into full-time care because i can't cope that is not true basically he's in residential now monday to friday so now the next place I look for I'm looking for a 52 week placement for him that now the reason why I'm doing that and any parent would agree with me he's older and he's turning into an adult so having 52 care means he has the option the option not he has to be there at weekends if he wants and some of the holidays because he's a nador and he's now going to make friends they might go to the cinema on a saturday or go bowling or have a disco night he might want to go and do that instead of coming to me whereas if he wanted to do that on saturday then i'll go and visit him on a sunday it's just

so he has the option to make a choice yeah and I think instead of knowing he has to come important to explain I just didn't I didn't understand why or what people had had against that or what they'd said to you some people are ignorant about it they think residential you're palming him off and you're not seeing him so that's why this program would be educational to make them realise why it is better for him to be in residential. Because finding a place where they've got swimming, the gym, everything that's for him, independent living, helping him know what it's like to have his kitchen, the toilet, you know, it's helping him.

It's giving him the chance to be independent, and that's what an adult is. It'd be selfish of me to have him at home with me all the time. You've got to let him explore and give him that chance. Katie Price talking to Emma there. And the documentary Harvey and Me is on BBC One at 8.30 on Monday evening. And you've been getting in touch about that interview. Angela emailed in to say,

I loved listening to Katie talking about her management and care for Harvey. We've been following Harvey's progress with great interest as our little granddaughter also has septo-optic dysplasia and is blind. She too is on constant medication and monitoring. She sleeps erratically and lives in her own little world. I've worked for years with young people with complex disabilities and I empathise with Katie's battles with the general public's perception of difference. Still to come on the programme, the hidden history of young Irish women who set sail for the American dream but ended up behind bars and fabulous fashion from Africa. Now, there's been a huge surge in calls to domestic abuse services in the pandemic as couples spend more time at home together, the majority of calls coming from women.

For many victims and survivors, work is usually a place of respite, but not if you're on furlough or working from home, where there's reduced communication with team members and a lack of face-to-face chats with colleagues. Managers and co-workers are often the only other people outside the home that victims talk to each day, which means they're uniquely placed to spot signs of abuse, according to the government. Now, last week, Business Minister Paul Scully wrote to employers, urging them to be the bridge between their workers, spot domestic abuse and offer the support they need. He told Emma what he wanted employers to look out for.

If they're in the workplace, it might be something that has been termed presenteeism, people not wanting to leave work to go back home and staying at work a long time. But it may be a drop-off in productivity, it may be just a change in demeanour. And all we're asking, we don't want to spook employers, we don't want to put onerous burdens on them, we just want to say they don't need to be experts. It's OK to ask people if they are OK. This is an extension, effectively, of looking after someone,

your employees' mental well-being. You don't need to be experts. It's OK to ask people if they're OK. That is a very big thing to ask employers to ask. It's not just asking if you're OK. I could say to you, are you OK? But if I'm actually trying to find out if somebody's being abused, you've got to say the words. Well, I think when you're looking at abuse, I think it's really important to work out what that is. What we're trying to do is make people aware of the first of all

the early signs of of emotional abuse that might be coercive control that might be financial abuse and so as an employer for example in financial abuse if there's any sense of that it might be looking to see if you can pay your salary that person's salary into into a different account it doesn't always have to be the physical abuse that you're looking at. But it's not just employers, it's colleagues as well. So if we can raise the awareness, and then, as I say, stress, depression, all of these kind of mental health issues, it's become normal now to look out for those signs. We want to make sure it's normal to look out for the signs of early stage emotional abuse

as well. But sorry, you've written to bosses saying they're in this unique position to help. And you've just outlined there some of the ways they could, but they still have to say it. You know, the idea that you're going to transfer, for instance, somebody's salary into a different account to help them avoid financial abuse. What are you saying bosses should say, and also colleagues, but you did write to employers, what should they say to somebody who's working for them, either at home or in the office or wherever they are, that they suspect is being abused? Well, essentially, first of all, it's reaching out. It's opening up the conversation. It's basically making employers aware of the case that, you know, what they can do, the kind of conversation openers, the kind of support that they can get from Hestia, for example, who have come up with a Bright Sky app, which has a lot of resource for employers, for work colleagues to start and open those conversations.

The Employers Initiative on Domestic Abuse as well. There's lots of results on their advice that they can have to open up those conversations. Could you give us an example of a sentence, I would say, as a boss to a member of staff? It's really asking if there's anything more they can do or just recognising that they are looking stressed, that there's a drop off in in performance and what what you what you tend to find otherwise is employees if they are bottling up uh worries i've actually got a case i have a work colleague which got me

interested in this two years ago who in a previous job had been subject to emotional abuse and she was really afraid of raising it with her employer because she thought if there's a drop off in productivity that would be held against her in terms of her career progression when actually all she needed was someone say you know what it's okay take a little bit of breathing space let me make your working conditions conditions a little bit more flexible but that's slightly different that's slightly different. That's slightly different. I totally understand trying to make work a place where you can approach your boss and you can tell people what's happening. But what you wrote to the government last week, wrote to employers, was about employers talking say to you is as well-intentioned as that could be, this is an absolute minefield that you've just said to employers at a time where a lot of them are struggling to stay afloat during a pandemic. Say to staff members, are you being abused? Well, exactly. It is a minefield. And that's why we're signposting that sort of support for employers, not necessarily the massive HR policies in place,

the big multinationals, the small businesses as well, who have maybe more interaction on a day-to-day basis with their smaller teams. That's exactly what we're saying. Yes, it can be a minefield. So don't be a psychologist. Don't be a counsellor. Go out and actually look for your support

and open up the dialogue. But we're just trying to, first of all, raise awareness of domestic abuse. Don't overcomplicate it. Make sure that you're being inclusive. Ask what you can offer. Don't overcomplicate it. Make sure you make a support.

Have a policy there that people know so that they can approach you as well. That's very clear and that you can understand. We went to a boss yesterday who's got nearly 40,000 staff and they said to us, I can't handle this. I can't deal with trying to talk to people

about this. In which case, Emma, tell your boss to go and speak to Vodafone who came up with the Bright School app. Tell them to go to Lloyd's Banking Group who do amazing work with both their number of employees and their customers in terms of financial abuse to see what's going on. All I'm saying is, yes, it's a minefield. Yes, it can be.

But clearly, don't just open up a conversation that are you being abused? It's way more nuanced than that. spotting the signs of stress, of mental pressure, health pressure, and then just finding that support, that signposted support, to then get those conversations, openers, to get to that point somewhere down the line, because it may not be domestic abuse. Clearly, you don't want to be trampling on other areas of stress, but it's just knowing that it's OK to look out for support, especially if you're a small business. What have businesses said to you about this? Have you had any response from last

week beyond the businesses you've just named? Yeah, so we put out a call to evidence. We had 126 responses to that. We've done some roundtables as well. We're going to be keeping some roundtables going to get best practice that we can share with other people. We want to have consultation on what more we can be doing with employers as well. So we worked with businesses and representatives like the Employers Initiative on Domestic Abuse, who have many, many employers signed up to them of all sizes as well. People like Elizabeth Filkin that heads that up, who can actually, who've got really positive responses and great examples of work and policies that are in place by those employers. Can I just ask you about this while we have you on the line? Campaigners are taking the government to court on Thursday over claims it's discriminated against self-employed women who've had a baby in the last four years. Under the self-employed income support scheme,

payments to compensate for losses caused by COVID are based on an average of profits between 2016 and 2019. If you've had a baby in the last four years, you can understand why that's going to have impacted you negatively. Why was this allowed to happen? Why has the government got this blind spot? In terms of the support that we've given over COVID, we put £280 billion worth of support out there. To put that in context, it's £130 odd billion is the NHS budget each

year. And so we put that out of pace. But you forgot about pregnant women? But clearly there are people falling between the cracks and that's why we continue to work and flex with our support, extending the furlough changing the loan schemes uh extending the self-employment schemes but clearly if there was a court case there then they'll they'll have their um day in

court i wouldn't want to comment on a legal challenge that that's coming forward but does it does it look like as a business minister does it look like to you forgot about pregnant women when that calculation no it's not about forgetting about pregnant women. It's about trying to work with as many people as possible in a fluid situation, in such a fast-moving situation as the pandemic that we've had over a period of time so we can wrap our arms around the economy, protect as many jobs as we can and clearly try to fill the cracks as we see them as things do change or as situations are uncovered. Emma talking to the Business Minister Paul Scully there. Now a fascinating piece of hidden history.

Irish women who emigrated to America at the end of the 1800s, but their American dreams often ended with them behind bars, working as prostitutes or suffering from addiction. But their stories were unknown until now. Thank goodness for social historians, Dr Elaine Farrell of Queen's University Belfast and Dr Leanne McCormick from Ulster University, who spent years scouring through archives to uncover the stories of these women, who they call Bad Bridgets. It's also the name of their podcast. So who were these women and why were they leaving Ireland? We started in 1838 really to get the period just before the Great Irish Famine which

took place in Ireland in the 1840s and running it right up to the end of the First World War. The important things and why we were interested in doing this project is that Irish women's migration in the period, particularly in the decades after the Irish famine, is very unusual. It's unusual in a European context. You've got large numbers of young, often 11 and 12, women migrating on their own. And this is very different because most European countries, women would migrate in family groups, or it would be young men who were migrating going to to look for work so the fact that you've got large numbers of young women going and migrating is really unusual and we were interested to see what happened to these women and also the fact

that sometimes the the historiography had looked at them quite a rose-tinted view of migration and the idea that women went and worked as servants things things worked out very well and we were pretty sure that things didn't always work out so well and that was where the project and the idea of the project really came from. Elaine girls as young as 11 and 12 it's so young isn't it to leave a country and travel all the way to a land that you know nothing about so why were they going what was life like for them in Ireland that meant that they had to leave and try at such a young age and find a better life elsewhere? Yes, absolutely. So for many of them, they were definitely escaping poverty, that Ireland just couldn't offer the opportunities in terms of jobs. Others, you know, once the migration started, I suppose,

they're travelling over to maybe older sisters or aunts they they know people over there so it's it encourages the migration but I suppose they're for some they're also of course going for opportunities abroad there's more jobs there there's also the sense of adventure and I think that's why we see the younger girls and women going as well and families needed that support they needed the girls and women going as well. And families needed that support. They needed the girls and women in the US and Canada to be sending money back in order to fund their survival at home in Ireland as well. And the Irish are very, very popular in America right now. But that wasn't always their reputation, was it, back in the 1800s?

Yes, there was sometimes that kind of stereotype, I suppose, of the fighting Irish or the drunken Irish as well. And we can definitely see, you know, we have Irish women involved in all sorts of crimes. You know, it is ranging from drunkenness and right up to serial killing and everything in between. But I think when we're thinking about these Irish girls and the women, you know, we can think, OK, well, some of them found themselves on the wrong side and the women you know we can think okay well some of them found themselves on the on the wrong side of the law they you know they kind of got in with the bad crowd or they were so young and naive but but I think it's really important that we also recognize women's agency here too for many of them they were um they were making a choice um to commit um crimes. Let's hear some examples, Elaine.

What did you find? Yeah, absolutely. So we have, I can tell you about one case and we have Maud Murrell, who's a sex worker in New York in the 1870s. Now, Maud is doing very well for herself. We have details of where she was living. She had her own bedroom in a nice house. It was

luxuriously furnished room and she was attending balls and, you know, being seen with important people. And her sister, Charlotte, who had also migrated to New York, begged her to leave the sex industry. She was really upset about it. And we have some quotes, you know, from Maud, and she says, oh, yeah, I will, I will, I'll leave after Christmas. So she's making, clearly making a calculated decision there to remain in the sex industry. And she's likely, of course, thinking about economics, but she might also be thinking about her past negative experience working as a domestic servant when she went over and to the US first and if you'll indulge me I

can tell you another case which is old mother Hubbard whose real name is Margaret Brown and she's a fascinating individual she's a legendary pickpocket right into her 70s and 80s. And she's a notorious criminal. Her wanted ad is up on in police stations for decades. And she really plays on this notion that she's an elderly grandmother and she targets department stores. So she really targets these middle class, predominantly female shoppers in the department stores. She admires their their purchases or she pretends to catch her catch a wire from her basket on their clothing. So there she is fumbling with the wire, pretending she's fumbling with the wire. And in the meantime, her other hand is dipping into their handbag or dipping into their pocket.

And she's stealing their money and their goods and she also had a self-styled cloak that was filled with little pockets on the inside and she would hide the money and the goods that she stole in that cloak and that's where she got the nickname Old Mother Hubbard. Oh Elaine, Leanne, she's crying out for a screenplay. I definitely need to see her. I hope that's going to be your next project but i'll let you think about that um let's get why were they leanne turning to these lives of crime what you know they'd gone to make money but what were what were they what was waiting for them when they got to america yeah i mean as elaine said for some some women it is situations of of of poverty that they end up, a lot of examples where we see with women where they will talk about how they met with people,

they ended up drinking, they end up in, we see a lot of Irish women have been arrested for crimes relating to being drunk and disorderly. And we see them often drinking in big groups on the street. They're very visible and they're often targeted by police because of that and because they're making a nuisance of themselves. So there are lots of kind of different dynamics coming into this. And for some of them, it's their youth, it's their fact that they are recent immigrants and that can often lead them to be caught and to be picked up by the police.

And did the fact that these women come from a very religious and patriarchal country, did all that make the crimes much worse? Yes, in some ways it will have done and I think that one of the things we see very much is about, we often wonder to ourselves really is about how much families back at home know anything about these crimes that anything about these these lives of the women that um that we are investigating and i would say very often it's very likely they don't tell these tales because these examples and finding out that your daughters were involved in sex work for example would be something that would ruin not only the reputation of a woman, but also the reputation of a family.

And we do have one example of a woman called Marion Canning. We know a little bit more about her because her father actually writes letters whenever she's sent to prison for theft. But he writes to both the judge and then the governor of New York asking for her release. And we get this insight into a father finding out about his daughter's crime. We don't even know how he did find out whether she wrote and told him or somebody else told him. But he's telling a story about, you know, how upset and heartbroken he is about this and also asking that, can my daughter come home as well? I'll take her away, too.

And did she go home? Yes, she did. This is one of the stories that I'm always glad because often our bad bridges don't necessarily have happy endings and we don't know really what happens to a lot of them but Marion was pardoned. She was sentenced to prison for seven years and she served 19 months and she was pardoned. She does go home and we know that she does subsequently get married as well so there is a happy ending there. And in a strange sort of way if they weren't committing these crimes we wouldn't know about their stories would we yeah exactly and this is this is the sort of the the part that

that does tell us reveals all these really really really fascinating insights but but often and why marion's story and and stories like maude great, where we get a little bit more insight into their lives, because very often we just see a line in a register and a crime. So it's amazing whenever we can get to hear more about these women and find out a little bit more about their backgrounds too. Dr Elaine Farrell and Dr Leanne McCormick there. It's a movie waiting to happen, isn't it? Now, if you want to hear more of the stories that Elaine and Leanne discovered,

then you can hear them all in their podcast called Bad Bridgets. We'll also have a link to the findings of the Bad Bridget research project on the Woman's Hour website. On Thursday, the V&A announced the Africa Fashion Exhibition, which will take place in June 2022, but the museum can't do it alone. The curators are asking for your help. The show will trace the history, diversity and vibrancy of modern African fashion from the liberation and independence years of the mid-20th century to the present day. Visitors will be able to view over 250 objects and from today the V&A are asking you to submit your treasured items of clothing, photography or magazines to the exhibition should you have any that fit the bill. Sindiso Kamalo is a South African fashion designer based in Cape Town

and Dr Christine Chasinska is the curator of African and African Diaspora Fashion. She told Emma about the inspiration for the exhibition. The inspiration for the exhibition absolutely came from what we see as a vibrant, innovative, globally impactful scene today. And that really set our hearts beating a little faster. Certainly it did mine. And I wanted to dive a little deeper and look at the history. Where does this begin?

And for me, it's with the independence and liberation years. And that vanguard, I call them the big four, the vanguard of designers like Sade Thomas-Pharm, who's seen as Nigeria's first designer, fashion designer. So the inspiration comes from what we see, what we hear from conversations with designers like Sade Thomas-Pharm, the historical designers, but also contemporary designers like Sindiso. So it's very much rooted in this idea of wanting to foreground African voices, African perspectives, African culture and history. Let's bring Sindiso into this. Each of your collections, welcome, is inspired by a black female historical figure. The latest was based on Harriet Tubman. Tell us about that and why it's important to you. Well, essentially for me, I feel like it's really important to speak about these women, especially in this time, because I don't want them to turn

into myths or mythical figures. I think, you know, it's extraordinary the idea of a black woman who was five foot two, who was very petite, who saved 70 slaves in her lifetime, you know, and lived until she was 91. It sounds just, you know, like unreal. And I just think for me, it's really important to really tell these stories and make them like put them onto like the fashion, like put them onto proper, like people can actually access them. And also I think in a sense, it's like also paying tribute to women because I think there's been so much violence towards black women and black people.

And I just think it's really just a way of actually paying tribute to that pain, you know, the pain of slavery, the pain of apartheid and bringing those stories out into like a contemporary setting. And educating people, I suppose, as well. And educating people, essentially. They don't know. I mean, what would you say are the most exciting trends, for instance, in the South African fashion scene at the moment? You have to paint a picture for us on radio of kind of what you're seeing. I mean, I think definitely at the moment, it's difficult to see people because everyone's indoors.

But no, I think at the moment, like, there's definitely, like, a very strong sense of heritage and people putting their identities first within their labels so whether you're kosa zulu or whatever whatever your gender identity is you know people are very much like putting their identities into their clothing and obviously there's a big like street culture but also like buying local designers has become a real trend at the moment so people are much more supportive of locally made clothing local designers and um yeah but i think that that's kind of the scene at the moment although we don't really see anyone yeah the scene is limited the world over but thanks for doing your best there

let me come back to you christine from from the&A you mentioned there Sade Thomas Farm Nigeria's first designer could you describe a bit of her work for people who may not be familiar well she's famous for looking back at traditional crafts traditional ways of dressing but repurposing them for this 1960s moment so she was working in the 1960s so if you think of that era in terms of women this iss moment. So she was working in the 1960s. So if you think of that era in terms of women, this is a moment of women's empowerment, women's independence, as well as the independence of the African nations. And two of the things that she's most known for, which to our eyes and our ears might seem really, really simple, but at the time, absolutely revolutionary. So for example, she put a zipper in the Nigerian Iro, which is a kind of

a wrap skirt is the way that I'd describe it. And when we spoke to her, she said, well, it's just not using women's time appropriately. If you've got to, you're in an office and you've got to keep retying your Iro. So she put a zipper in the Iro and made it more wearable, more useful to women on the go. And similarly, the other thing she did, and it's just fantastic, simple ideas. The other thing she did was to create a pre-tied gele. So the gele is a Nigerian head wrap. And so I love this idea of in the 60s,

rather like here in the UK, women on the go, jumping on and off buses, working in offices for the first time, having these independent lives. You don't want to be fixing your gele. You don't want to be fixing your galley. You don't want to be fixing your iro. And so she just thought of these really quite simple, wonderful ideas to make life easier for women on the go.

And her boutique, Sade's Boutique in Lagos, was the place to go to if you're a fashionable, empowered woman in the 60s. Oh, sounds wonderful. A woman talking our language long before we needed it. And also the idea, you know, just people who put pockets in women's clothing, also revolutionary.

What do you want from our listeners today? We want people to search their attics, search their trunks, dig behind the sofa even, dig behind wherever you might find garments by the big four particularly. So garments by Chris Seydoux, for example, Kofi Ansah, Sade Thomas Farm and Al Fadi. Do you or your relatives still

have garments by them? Do you have family portraits? Do you have home movies of you and your family during the 1950s to the 2000s that showcased these fashions of the day, these fashions that demonstrated the empowerment of men and women. Dr Christine Chasinska and Sindiso Kamalo there. So I'd get in the loft and get digging out those dusty boxes. That's it from me, but join Emma on Monday just after 10. Have a lovely rest of the weekend. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.