Woman's Hour - Bryony Gordon, Israel-Gaza war, Chief Constable Sarah Crew

Episode Date: February 12, 2024

Four years ago, Avon and Somerset Police offered Channel 4 unprecedented access to its Counter Corruption Unit, the people who police the police. The result is a three-part documentary series called To Catch A Copper. Emma Barnett speaks to Sarah Crew, Chief Constable of Avon and Somerset Police, about why she made the decision to let the cameras in, and the consequences of doing so.Bryony Gordon is the bestselling author of The Wrong Knickers, You Got This and Mad Girl. She won the MIND Making a Difference Award for changing the perception of mental health in the media, and even ran the London Marathon in her underwear! She joins Emma to discuss binge eating, OCD, menopause and her new book - Mad Woman. As the Israel-Gaza war enters its fifth month, we’re looking at what the impact is on women and children. Tomorrow, Emma will hear from women in Israel. Today, she speaks to BBC Arabic journalist Dalia Haidar and Frances Leach from ActionAid to hear more about what life is like at the moment for Palestinian women and children in Gaza. The three-time Olympic champion Shelly-Ann Fraser-Pryce has confirmed she will retire this year after the games in Paris. The 37-year-old, regarded as one of the greatest sprinters of all time, won the 100m title in 2008 and 2012. Former Team GB sprinter Katherine Merry joins Emma to discuss the announcement. Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lottie Garton

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to the programme. Yesterday, during a rare morning alone without children, family or friends, I went to see, finally went to see, the Women in Revolt exhibition at the Tate Britain. Art and activism in the UK from 1970 to 1990. Definitely a morning well spent, especially as I met a few of you, our listeners, along the way.

So thank you to those who said hello and some of you looked incredibly moved, angry, passionate, not least because I suspect you were also, if you have been or were there yesterday or are perhaps going, it's not a spoiler, it's part of the advert for this. But there is the sound of Gina Birch, the musician and artist, screaming as you are in the exhibition galleries, screaming in a film played on loop called Three Minutes Scream. I have to say most women don't need it explaining.

So let me ask you today, screaming, do you ever do it? Is it ever part of a release? Is it something for you? Or what do you feel when you hear somebody talk about it? If you would just be able to relate to that particular film, why? Get in touch, 84844. It's a Monday. You might need to get it all out. You certainly might need to after you've heard some of our discussions today. Text will be charged to your standard message rate. One of my guests today definitely relates, the writer Bryony Gordon, who's back with her new book called Mad Woman. But what about you?

At BBC Women's Hour on social media, you can email me through the Women's Hour website or a WhatsApp message or voice note 03700100444. If you are going to send a voice note, you could just send a scream. That'd be interesting to play on the radio. Definitely in the market for it. Well, some TV, first of all, to start today's programme that might make you feel like screaming on a very serious note.

Four years ago, Avon and Somerset Police offered Channel 4 unprecedented access to its counter-corruption unit, the unit that polices the police. The result is a devastating three-part documentary series called To Catch a Copper. In an attempt to create a picture of the overall system designed to bring corrupt officers to justice, cameras followed cases from the point of view of investigators, accused officers, victims, legal professionals and community leaders. I'm joined now on the line by Chief Constable of Avon and Somerset Police,

in fact its first female Chief Constable, Sarah Crewe, who's also the National Police Chief's Council Lead for Adult Sexual Offences, and made that decision to let the cameras in in the first place. Good morning. Morning. It really is quite shocking, some of this footage. We will get into it in just a moment. But do you regret decision that has been quite a quite a pushback from some of your officers I understand no I don't regret that at all policing is done by consent in this country and that involves the police and the public in an open relationship we have some really strong even coercive powers and certainly lots of authority as police officers. And I think transparency and accountability go with those powers. And so, no, I never regret opening the doors for the public to come in and look and see.

The first scene in the first episode, officers are trying to handle a woman who's threatening to take her own life. Very quickly she's restrained physically. She's then fitted with a spit hood after trying and failing, it seems, to spit at one of the officers. And then within that very small confines of a spit hood, I'd never actually seen one up close before, she's pepper sprayed in response to kicking out. And the strength of that pepper spray is such that one of the officers says,

we need to get a van because I can't now drive that car but that's up in her face within a spit hood what is your response to that it's really shocking isn't it you know ashamed angry disappointed all of those things when we invited documentary makers in um you know, we opened our doors and we expected them to find misconduct. But frankly, I didn't expect them to find that, but they did. And those are my reactions to what I saw. It's female police officers, isn't it, in this case? Yeah.

Dealing with a woman, a member of the public, who when your other officers trying to police the police look at this, expected not because they're women, I should hasten to add, but because of the woman's situation, they expected some care and a difference of treatment. Is it more disappointing because it's women? I think it's disappointing. For some reason, it feels more shocking. However, it's indefensible from anyone, to be fair. And I think that's the reaction of every, and the vast majority of police officers,

police staff who work in policing up and down the country, that that is a very shocking, disturbing scene. It's shocking and disturbing as well that there are two people there and one's not able to check the other. You know, I always think the superpowers that police officers need to have are compassion and empathy and patience, as well as courage and all those other things that we expect of policing. But they were sadly lacking in that interaction i i i mean the series starts with that but i also start there because a lot of the narrative at the

moment if we're talking about how to trust the police is in light of male police officers abusing their positions a lot of the time it has been and especially when it comes to relationships with members of the public who are women so it you know and we should also say the women also joke to each other about getting a tandoori at this point. It's an incredibly distressing situation going on and are talking to each other during this themselves and having all sorts of jokes that, again, perhaps we've been hearing more about men doing that sort of thing.

It then does move to an even another level of shocking when we hear a call come in from a woman, a member of the public, who's quite confused as to whether she should be complaining or not, but remembers being drunk, picked up by a police car, who in some way seems to have been offering to take her home after a drunk night out. And she'd been a drunken, I think, disorderly within a nightclub. And they end up up having sex and she doesn't know if that's wrong or not. The police officer is named. It is a crime to do that, as I understand it. What was your reaction to that one? Well, so my reaction was immediately through the call handler who took that call was very good and said, no, this is not all right.

A police response then took place. Our counter corruption unit are featured throughout that story, working really, really hard to investigate that case and actually bring it before a courtroom. And they did. And actually, that case went to trial on two occasions because on the first occasion the jury were unable to reach a verdict and you know that the criminal justice system did its work and in that case you know the the officer wasn't found guilty then there was you know as an organization that same unit pursued the misconduct process and And again, that did come to a conclusion, but it came to a conclusion that there was no case to answer for gross misconduct. So, you know, this documentary was about showing that system, you know, what I saw was a recognition

that this felt wrong and a very robust response and investigation, which, you know, exploited both the criminal justice system and the police misconduct regime. Why do you think it's happening? The abuse of police of their position of power, if we could summarise it like that. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think I've got to say that I'm 29 years in policing

and I've seen lots of things. And my the rule in policing, my experience has been the vast majority of people. And I have to say that because there are great people out there doing great policing day in, day out. And they are the best of us. And very difficult, very difficult circumstances, which even that first clip, even though it doesn't get handled at all correctly, shows you the violence that's actually sometimes involved when it comes to a case that could have been seen as actually something for mental health professionals. So, you know, that is also important to say. And we're seeing some of that through the documentary. So that's being said that if that is the rule, there is a minority and they're a sizeable minority and we've seen in examples here which actually undermine the work of the brilliant majority. And why does that happen?

You know, I won't speculate that policing has powers and it has authority. We know people who want to abuse them, they may be attracted by that. But also policing puts you in contact with people who are vulnerable. And if you wanted to exploit and manipulate and coerce, that would also attract people. We see that in other professions where power and authority, where access to vulnerable people happen. So I think it's not surprising, but what it does mean is that how we screen people entering policing, but also the culture within policing, once people are in, how it identifies and steps up and doesn't bystand on that when it's seen is incredibly important, you know, and that's one of the reasons why I think it's important to be transparent and show what's happening. I think

it's as important for the public as it is for police officers and staff up and down the country. I mean if their experience has been like mine we won't want to see that. This documentary is presented back to us as a side of policing that we don't want to be there, we may have a sense that it is, but we've never seen it. Well, actually, now we're seeing it, and I think it's on all of us in policing to step up on behalf of the brilliant, the courageous majority to say, not in our name. So I think our culture also needs to eliminate people

who may be attracted to policing for some of those reasons to exploit and abuse, as you said. There's a clip of something that you have to say that we wanted to play this morning. Let's just have a listen. You know, I can think of friends that I have outside of policing, you know, women who haven't ever had any need to have any lack of confidence in the police, who said to me, Sarah, if I was driving my car and it's in a country lane and a police car came up behind me and it put the blue lights on, it requested me to stop, I wouldn't stop. If 50% of the population are beginning to feel that way, then we've got a problem is that how you feel um no because my experience is that most of the the police officers i've worked with and a lot of the men i don't fear i i think i'm

safe um and do you still think that though after what you've seen like you've seen more in this i imagine than you had seen as you say in your working life day to day. And your friends saying that to you must be very sobering. It's incredibly sobering. So while that's not my experience, I completely accept it from my friends' experience. And I can completely empathise and understand. It's shocking. It's a moment, actually, that calls me to pause and stop and really think hard. What do we need to do to drive back public confidence? This documentary is part of that because I think it's important. Don't you think it's going to do the opposite?

You know, I was watching it. I have to say, it's not the type of thing I would choose to watch of an evening. I watched it to make sure I was informed ahead of our conversation, of course. I felt even worse i think in the short term but all of those incidents that are featured they happened yes all of those other incidents that we hear about up and down the country they happen and aside from this documentary um you know that that feeling of that friend of mine, but also the figures within within policing within the good policing that we see i think is incredibly important on that journey i don't think unless you accept that you

have a problem can you truly come back from that problem you know four or five years ago you talked about me being the national lead for rape and sexual offenses for adult sexual offenses we had another documentary where we invited documentary makers in to see how we were investigating another issue, which is incredibly important to confidence of women, and that's sexual abuse. And it presented a picture of us that, you know, wasn't how we wanted to seem, but it made us sit up and look and change the way we were operating. And it also actually brought in lots of support from women and from women's groups up and down the country,

including academics who stepped forward towards us to say, you accept and acknowledge that there's room for improvement, well, we're stepping towards you to help you improve. And that's what's happened. And, you know know some of our work here in avon and somerset is now being rolled out nationally called operations soteria and i think back to i think you have to acknowledge the challenges as well as the great work that goes on in policing before you can step forward um especially with communities to make a change so i suppose just if i went you know looking at some of the reports that have been done, the view of certainly within the Metropolitan Police that there's institutionalised misogyny, sexism, racism.

If you looked at Dame Louise Casey's report, but also what's been said about other forces with those same issues. There's the knowledge of it. And it's not just a film like this. There's been reports, there's been other things it. And it's not just a film like this. There's been reports. There's been other things that's been done. But it is not translating yet into a change in public confidence, nor does it seem to be translating in a change of culture. That's the issue, the lack of evidence around that. What would you say to that?

That's precisely why I think that it's very important to be transparent and to acknowledge those problems. But it's not working having this cat this particular counter corruption unit in the sense of you could say it was working because of them what happens but it's not enough of a deterrent to stop a police officer picking up a drunk woman and having sex with her in his car well then the system needs to be improved to change that in It's not about the system, though, is it? I'm not holding you accountable for him, but how do you make it that you don't think that that is acceptable on any level to do? Because it's already a crime.

That's what that individual knows, or they should know, certainly as a police officer. And they already know they will be investigated by the systems that you have. And it still happened. Absolutely, it has. And that's why the system needs to change. But also, as you say, I'm not accountable for the whole system, but I can throw a light on that whole system.

And we're having this debate now about this system and how it might need to change to inspire greater confidence and deliver the right outcomes that will generate that confidence. How do you think you could get your friends then over to a place where if there's a police car behind them they aren't scared and they feel okay about pulling over how do you think you'll be able to do that and how long do you think it might take? Well I'll be very clear I will make sure as chief constable that I do everything within my power to ensure that people who have ill intent don't enter policing, but also to create a culture within policing where every individual offers that challenge. When they see behaviour which isn't in line with our ethics or our values, they step up.

It's not widely known that most of the misconduct that we see coming through is actually raised by colleagues. And we'll see that in tonight's documentary. yeah the final the final parts tonight isn't it the final part tonight and it does particularly tackle the issue of um abusive position for sexual um gain or um and so it will have particular resonance for the audience here today and there are outcomes which hopefully will start to drive some of that confidence but i think we've got to be great at policing as well. And in some areas, we're not great at policing. It'd be good to follow up with you in the future and talk about this. I mean, we've also seemed to have had a lot of resonance with our listeners to do with the acts of screaming. I'm sure perhaps you sometimes feel like screaming with some of

what you've seen, or would you never let yourself lose your cool, Chief Constable? I think, as I said, patience, compassion and empathy are the skills that police officers need. So I might have an internal scream, but externally, I've just got to be resolute and keep trying to drive up confidence. Chief Constable Sarah Crewe, thank you very much. As you said there, the third and final part of that programme, which is called To Catch a Copper, will be available on Channel 4 from nine o'clock this evening. It is very powerful viewing indeed, certainly the first episode that I have seen. You are getting in touch about your responses and the idea of screaming.

When my husband was terminally ill and I was overwhelmed, reads this message, I drove to a quiet car park on the moors near to me and screamed and screamed as loud as I could. It's what I needed at that moment in time. Screaming is underrated, underused, and I feel rarely understood. I can chart my lowest ebbs and most stressful times through painful memories of screaming, reads this message. I always feel so alone and inhuman, yet I know that it's a revelation of powerful feelings that find no outlet in conventional forms of behaviour, that find no outlet rather in conventional forms of behaviour. Screaming. I never did until my 52-year-old younger brother died last summer. When I was by myself with no distractions,

just allowing the grief to take over, I would let the floodgates open with a primeval scream, you've said here, which surprised me. Not sure it helped specifically. It was just an extreme expression of my sadness and one I certainly felt wasn't appropriate to do in public. That's from a male listener called Baz. I took myself off to the hills yesterday and had an unplanned scream, very therapeutic, carried on in the car on the way home. Not laughing at whatever you were doing that for,

just the image of into the hills, into the car. Yes, I scream. Another one here, while driving, on my own usually, very therapeutic and necessary. Good for you. I once described myself as an angry young woman to an older lady. And she told me that she spent her lifetime thinking the same, only to realise it was frustration, not anger, which makes perfect sense to me, says Poppy in Stroud. Good morning to you. I could carry on. Let me tell you who's just walked into the studio. Someone I'm sure I have a lot to say about screaming. She's no stranger to sharing her innermost thoughts and feelings, ones she's sometimes frightened of herself. And she's known for writing with honesty and humour about her personal experiences

of mental illness. I'm talking about Bryony Gordon, the Telegraph columnist and author of The Wrong Knickers, You Got This, Mad Girl and now Mad Woman. Good morning. Good morning. It's nice to have you here. Let's start with some screaming, shall we? Oh, God. Do you know what? I once went on a like a retreat and they we were told to scream to let everything out. And I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it because I I think I was so conditioned to be a good girl. And when you're a kid, you know, and you have a tantrum or you're angry, don't don't be silly. You know, and it was so internalized. And it's only recently that i've been able to

do that to get really angry and feel able to do that well i mean i think the title i know it will be knowing you a bit as i do um deliberately provocative in some ways as i'm sure mad girl was but mad woman as a phrase yeah is a whole thing isn't it and is that how you would describe yourself so i have or you know i have historically sounds like makes me sound very old uh been described as mad because of my experiences of eating disorders and ocd and addiction this the mad woman in this i've sort of taken it bit tongue-in-cheek and i'm actually it's an it's an angry woman i'm angry i'm angry because i think um a lot of the mental health issues that women experience are entirely appropriate because we live in a society that isn't set up for us.

And we're not listened to and we haven't been listened to. You know, you can see that now with menopause. And, you know, we're talking about menopause more, but there's a backlash against the talking about it a bit. And I kind of think, God, if men had to go through this, it would be the only thing we ever spoke about. You know, we wouldn't be allowed to talk about anything else. But you are in this book, you know, quite seriously charting those, something that was happening to you as we went into lockdown

and you realised you had some specific issues. So there is a bigger theme that you've talked about there, but I thought we could go specifically to the binge binge eating side of this because that that was different for you wasn't it? It was it was quite a shock I got sober um seven years ago and I really think I thought when I got sober that I'd sort of vanquished my demons you know and of course actually recovery is not you know it's not as you know, it's not as neat as that. It's not as linear as that, you know, for any kind of health condition. And as I was two and a half years sober when the pandemic hit and I was so relieved I was sober because I thought I this would have I would have gone very wrong if I was still drinking.

But I sort of hadn't realised I was I was I was binge eating. I mean, like really, I was secretive in the middle of the night. That was kind of my way of coping. I would find myself eating like raw sausages, you know, really. So it wasn't even kind of Ben and Jerry's or any of the other things. And and I and I sort of realised after a few months that this was, you know, I hadn't even occurred to me that something was wrong. And then I was interviewing an eating disorders specialist for a book I was writing. And she, you know, we're talking about anorexia and bulimia and I'd experienced bulimia in my 20s. And I kind of guess I thought that because I wasn't purging, I was only binging, that it was kind of okay, you know, and she said, actually, can you

talk about binge eating disorder in this book, because this is the most common eating disorder there is. It's, I think, something like, if you put the amount of people who have anorexia and bulimia combined, it makes up binging, you know, the number, the total that have binge eating disorder, which is not to undermine those other eating disorders. And in fact, people that suffer from anorexia very often develop binge eating disorder when they're in recovery from that. And it kind of stopped me in my tracks. And I realised that I had fallen headfirst into a sort of another type of addiction. Because you'd never had this before? No, I mean, i definitely as a child

had you know if i think about the first thing that i used to kind of numb my feelings it was definitely food you know um and food is you know food is really powerful we know that you know it's used as a weapon of war you know to withhold it is as we can if we see now but also if we think about when we're you think about that with your kids it's the first way they learn that they have power over you they can throw the broccoli on the floor you know it's an immensely kind of evocative thing and you know and it can be used as a drug it really can and I really found that but why I mean you know jokes aside you know not going for the ice cream go for something that I don't know is there something extra about the fact you were going for raw food that could hurt you in some way?

I don't know. I don't know. I haven't really, you know, it was certainly an extra level of shame. You know, it was like, and I do think. And were you hiding the evidence? Yeah. Down the back of the sofa until, and I would hide the actual sausages like in the vegetable bit of the the fridge because i i didn't think anyone would be able to find them there i don't know what that says about our fridge um and nobody's fridge

it was that good in that part but it was really compulsive yeah and actually you know being an alcoholic in recovery and i used to go into blackout all the time from drinking you know all the time and um and i would go into i realized it was a similar thing with the eating like I would come around and there would just be you know just so much food around me and the shame and you also talk about you know eating from the bin at one point as well which is is a whole other level of load yeah I I really I really felt a lot of shame about it. I've kind of come to see that my job as a writer is to expose shame to the light because it dies then. But that's very hard for yourself.

It is, but it's also, I think, it's a really necessary part of getting better because what I've learned is all mental health issues from anxiety through to psychosis and beyond is that they work by isolating you, by lying to you, by you by telling you're a freak by telling you that you're alone by telling you that no one's going to understand what you're going through and that's just not true not only does someone understand what you're going through they're probably going through it I've learned this so the moment I put my head above the parapet and said I'm experiencing binge eating disorder

my Instagram inbox was flooded with people saying that they had experienced this same thing and the shame they felt you know did you tell your family first though before you decided to do yes obviously yeah because i mean sometimes people go down a whole thing that if i talk about it openly i'll feel better and have that support i mean and what was the response because for those like you know you talk about your husband and your child in the book and in your columns, did they have any idea? Did they know? I think my husband definitely having, you know,

having lived with me in active alcoholism and addiction, it wasn't, you know, I think also seeing some of the really dark places you go to when you're an alcoholic or you're addicted to cocaine, you know, eating some raw sausages was in comparison not. And also it would happen in the middle of the night. So I think he's only ever sort of proud that I kind of deal, I recognise these things and then I deal with them. Yeah, so I feel like it's a really important thing because binge eating is a real illness of shame for women as well,

because also we link it so much with weight you know we have such an obsession with the with with you know with with being not the you know the size we were told we needed to be when we grow up being smaller and of course as we know eating disorders are not about weight at all really they're about control you know but I do think that probably a lot of obesity is driven by binge eating disorder and we're told that the way to cure it is by going on a diet and actually that makes it a hundred times worse because people women would get in touch with me and say I have this thing and I'm so ashamed and I need to lose weight and if you go about trying to rectify binge

eating disorder by you know if you go in and your goal is to lose weight you're never going to get better because it's all you're continuously shaming yourself how was there a moment that it came to a head for you or how did you get to a better place well it was for those who who are listening who might be able to relate so it was interviewing this woman who worked at beat which is the national eating disorders organization and uh i just realized that i'm like this this doesn't feel good this feels horrible this is filling me with shame i have to deal with it and i was very lucky and they put me in touch with someone who then helped me and i had therapy but i had to really and i had to really relearn how to eat you know and actually now and this this goes to the the culture you you know diet we think that diet culture is sort of ending

but it's not it's alive and well on social media you know we have lots of people who talk about eating for gut health you know and there's all it's sort of eating disordered eating which um is sort of hidden under the guise of things like that blood sugar spikes you know all of these things which are actually really normal you see it people obsess about eating in a different way and so it's it takes a long time to untangle your brain from that you know I have you know a proper nutritionist and you know it's only recently I'm a 43 that I realised how important it is that I do eat carbohydrates. You know, these things that we think are kind of the enemy. You know, a lot of us don't know how to eat.

You know, definitely. We don't know how to save money. We don't know how to eat. Some of the things that we think should be available to teach us, you know, even how mortgages or rent works. All of those things. There's huge gaps. But food and food is definitely one that people are talking about more and more at the moment I also think

sometimes when I look at the diet culture we all have grown up with you know and the notion of what it is to be an acceptable woman it is a miracle any of us eat have ever you know it's a miracle I've ever had periods of eating normally you know because, because it's so screwed up. And if I think back to when I was a kid, and when I was a teenager, I remember saying to a woman in my family, do I need to lose weight when I was 15? And I was probably like eight stone. And I remember her saying to me, oh, we could all do with losing a bit of weight, darling, you know, and that was what we grew up with. That was really normal. We wouldn't dream of saying that to, you know, to a female family member now. But it's only recently that that's changed.

Do you, I mean, what you're also describing in this particular context is lockdown, you know, and I think we still don't really know what that's done to a lot of us. A lot of people, not least children uh who have a particular age at that point how are you today what's the what's the situation like for you now and where would you say and how would you say i think it's always good because you are very honest to say how you've got those various pieces in a better place for you you know is it a mixture of fitness medication how does that work yeah um hrt has been game changing for me um i take antidepressants i go to 12-step meetings it sounds really complicated but actually if i give these things an hour of my day they give

me 23 hours back but also i think it's really important to say that you know mental health issues and mental chronic mental health conditions recovery is not linear yeah like we have this notion and this is kind of what i'm trying to kind of fight against that you know we need neat beginnings middles and ends and we want that story of someone admits they have ocd or an eating disorder or addiction and then they get help and then they live happily ever after you know and that isn't how life works and no but you're you're obviously in a better place now. So I think it's always interesting to hear how you're up to that point. But I think that's because I'm able to immerse myself

in this culture of mental health and recovery. You know, I'm so, so lucky, Emma. So it's a combination of things, getting a bit older and just knowing that life changes on a day to day. Like yesterday was a tough day for me. You know, today is not. You should have come screaming yesterday was a tough day for me you know today is not uh you should have come screaming with me in a gallery do you know what when i saw your

posts on instagram i thought i wish i'd gone there with you and well you know there were a lot of people i was quite struck by how many women were there alone which i thought was quite striking in itself just just wanting to take in some of the art and activism of the women of the 70s 80s and 90s um well it's very good to have you back on. You talked about how you feel now and taking us through some of what you've said. We'll get, I'm sure, strong reactions to that and messages here. For instance, one that's just come in. I'm 24. I suffered from anorexia

and then very bad binge eating for years since the age of 16. I feel seen and heard by this conversation and it's very accurate that binge eating is associated with shame and compulsiveness. It can 100% relate to the feeling of addiction which is just one example of messages which I'm sure will keep coming in. Bryony Gordon thank you for coming to see us today. Thank you so much for having me. And the book's called Mad Woman. More messages as well about releasing and screaming here just want to share a couple of these. When my children were small and I had very little time

without them and no out of family willing to give me a bit of time out, I went for a rare lone cycle ride with my husband captaining the ship. I found myself on a downward hill, legs stretched outwards and screaming all the way down. It was fabulous. It should be prescribed, says Sarah. Good morning to you, Sarah. Thank you very much indeed.

And let me read a couple more here. I've been known to scream when nothing else is going to release the emotion I would just like to say that there is a certain female scream that you hear often that says I'm not exasperated I'm in trouble the latter scream always means I'm going to try and help says Emma very good point my husband screams when frustrated which is quite a lot it helps him but not a harmonious action for those living with him I should say if you were just listening to that discussion, very important to say, if you relate to any of that, we have links on our website. If you need any support on the themes discussed in that interview with Bryony Gordon. So please do check those out on the Woman's Hour website.

And another one here. I scream into pillows regularly. Things get so overwhelming holding down a job where I feel undervalued and deserve more recognition. Looking after a new puppy, keeping on top of the cleaning and the household as well as the state of the world. I feel overwhelmed and lacking support and sometimes a good scream is cathartic, cleansing and vitally not hurting anybody. Keep those messages coming in if you want to share anything that you hear and that you're listening to. We've also got some messages about the police. Let me just read a couple of those to you saying, having heard our Chief Constable there, the Chief Constable of Somerset and Avon Police in light of that Channel 4 documentary, people are drawn towards careers

and life choices by what ticks inside them. I'm wondering whether the police force do not include screening for psychological damage, adverse childhood and life experience that draw individuals towards the police and positions of power. Healthy people do not cause harm to others, reads this message. Our coppers are far less likely to kill one of us citizens, though, not like in the US. In the US, it's very tense at all times because everyone has the potential to be carrying a weapon. Our coppers have a good way about them. Empathy is always the most important thing. But Mark, who's listening, good morning to you. Very interesting here.

Having served for 30 years in the police, from 1987 to 2017 in Met and the Kent forces, the culture seems to be getting worse. A big issue is outside recruitment, in-house training, and good supervision that has all been watered down by funding and woke decision-making. And another one here, I grew up in Avon and Somerset, which is why I've been watching this programme, seeing the awful abuses of power investigated by counter-corruption. And then as you see, nothing

significant happening to the officers involved other than reflective practice. How could anyone have any faith in any force after that? And so it continues. Thank you very much. Many messages coming in. I will come back to them. But as the Israel-Gaza war enters into its fifth month, what is the situation facing women and children on both sides? You will have heard from the headlines today and read today that two male Israeli hostages have been rescued in a raid in Rafah.

Tomorrow we'll hear from an Israeli woman who's making it her mission to expose evidence and testimony of sexual violence from hostages, first responders and victims, which she says happened during the brutal attacks by Hamas on October 7th that killed 1,200 people. She'll also share her grave concerns for the 14 female hostages still being held by Hamas, which is recognised by the UK government as a terrorist organisation. Today we focus on women and girls in Gaza. You will have heard news of heavy Israeli airstrikes on the southern city of Rafah. It's thought to be the current home of around a million and a half Palestinian refugees. According to the Ministry of Health in Gaza, which is run by Hamas, more than 28,000 people

have now died in the conflict since October 7th. And many more have been displaced, the majority of them women and children. Dalia Haydar has joined me now. She's walked into the studio, senior journalist at BBC Arabic. And in a moment, I'll be talking to Frances Leach from ActionAid, an international charity that works with women and girls living in poverty.

Welcome to you both. Dalia, to start with you, can you tell us a bit more about the situation facing women and children in Gaza right now? Well, the situation is deteriorating by the day at many different aspects. So there is the lack of basic life needs, basically, that women need to survive with their children. We're talking about clean water, we're talking about food. Now what we know from local journalists on the ground that women who are lactating or who just gave birth, they are surviving on one meal only a day,

which means they're not able to feed their children. Women who give birth, they're feeding their children with dates, the infants, the newborn with dates wrapped in muslin because they cannot give them milk. Even if there is milk available or formula milk, there is no clean water to mix it with. But those who can get it, which is very rare and very difficult, they are mixing it with unclean water to feed their children. So also in terms of maternal health, they don't have access to medical care. And there are women who are giving birth in tents or in their homes without medical supervision. So as far as I know from local journalists on the ground, the situation is

very bad and it is deteriorating day by day. I know you've been in contact with a woman named Jumana in the past few months who was pregnant at the time of the October 7th attacks. We're just going to play a little bit of what she's told you about what it was like being pregnant, first of all. Pregnant women like me must go out for walks but because of the war I am not able to go out even to buy food so I have to walk inside the room we have been without water for four days

this evening the water returned but it is so weak. A trickle. Can you hear the sound of the drones? She was able to give birth, but here she is again. Let's hear what she has to say. There is a lot of fear inside me because of the shelling everywhere. I'm scared when on the road, scared when in the hospital. Besides the labor pain and the shelling, all I could think about is to deliver my baby. As I was giving birth, I was thinking,

how to survive with my baby, with the bombardment everywhere inside the Gaza Strip. Listening to that with me, Dalia Haidar, senior journalist at BBC Arabic, you've been having these conversations. Do you know how they are? What's the latest situation? I've been in touch with Jumana since then, and I'm always checking on her and her baby. Tomorrow, her baby will be four months old. Since she gave birth, she's been

literally on the move because of the intense situation where she lived. That was the Middle Gaza Strip. So Jumana originally was living in northern Gaza, in Gaza City. And then she was displaced, moved to Middle Gaza Strip, where she gave birth. After she gave birth, their place was attacked. And then she moved again to another place. Then it was too dangerous there. Then just before Christmas, Jumana got in touch

and she told me that she moved to Rafah and they left in the middle of the night without anything on them and they ended up on the streets in Rafah because the Onarwar run schools were overflowing and there was no way to give them shelter there. So they stayed on the streets under basically just like in a tent by one of the honourable schools for a few weeks and then it was getting too difficult with the babies.

She has a toddler as well. So with her two daughters, it was getting very difficult and she told me that they got sick. On one day, I got a phone call from her husband and he was very distressed and he told me that they got sick on one day. I got a phone call from her husband and he was very distressed. And he told me we're scared we're going to lose the baby because she was getting sick because of the cold and the situation they were in. They could not find any food. Lately, she moved back to Middle Gaza Strip, which is still under attack.

But she told me that the place they stayed in, there are no windows because they're shattered. And it's still very cold, but better than being on the street. And that's the latest I know about them. And they're also, I believe, fellow journalists. She is a journalist. Yeah. And her husband and her husband is a journalist. Yes. Are they able to work in any way? Her husband is able to work and he is a freelancer with the BBC, but he's not able to be with his family. So he tries to move back and forth whenever possible. Jumana, until now, I don't think she's able to work. And at least with us, we have not been obviously commissioning any work from her. It's just interesting to try and picture their lives and their line of work as well as what's happening at the moment um and if there's

any ability to do that i also know you've been speaking to um and you have been speaking to a girl called dania because we're trying to get an idea uh or some of these is are there any other stories that you wanted to to bring to life today um no i was in touch with, with a local medical student who was, who's also a practicing doctor in one of the hospitals in Gaza. And she's the one actually, who briefed me about the situation with women and access to medical assistance. And also, she raised a very important point about the lack of privacy. So it's not only so, although, you know, those who don't need urgent medical help, but who are crammed with hundreds of other people and using one toilet. And so for them, it's very challenging when it comes to women hygiene and accessing to toilet, because most of these places that are too cramped, they're also close to places with like sewage and non-hygienic areas. So that was another point she raised.

Which, again, as we're thinking about the life of women and girls, some of those specifics, excuse me. Frances Leach from ActionAid, let me say good morning to you. Morning. We're just hearing some of those details. Do some of those details and stories we're hearing from Dalia resonate with what your staff and partners have been seeing? They absolutely resonate. I mean, there are thousands of women like Jamana who are currently sheltering in Rafah. We were extremely distressed to see overnight increased attacks on Rafah.

We've been putting out many communications now about the scale of the humanitarian crisis in Gaza but the acute crisis that we're seeing now in Rafa is a serious escalation. We heard last week about women who are having to cut up pieces of refugee tents in order to use them as sanitary towels because there's no hygiene kits and as an action aid aid agency we are distributing hygiene kits but we're just simply not able to meet the scale of need everyone in Gaza at the moment is in need of serious humanitarian assistance and the problem is is that for many people who were made to evacuate from northern Gaza under the instructions of the Israeli government they followed those instructions they fled south they were faced with sniper attacks and bombing on the way down.

The roads were damaged, so it was impossible for people to drive. There was no fuel. And they arrived in Rafah seeking shelter and safety. That was the safe zone that they were sent to, and it was bombed last night. So we are extremely distressed now about what's going to happen to particularly those women and girls who were there. I know a story of a woman called Ketam who was in northern Gaza and she gave birth

in a hospital. There was no anaesthetic, there was no painkillers. She was discharged immediately and she travelled from northern Gaza to Rafa with blood going down her legs because she didn't even receive the urgent aftercare that women are supposed to receive once they've given birth. Now, I don't know what's happened to Ketam. We haven't heard from her since. But can you imagine the scale of need she's already in and now facing what's happened last night? We're extremely distressed. I can't I can't emphasise that enough. I was going to ask about the aid that your organisation provides. You mentioned there about kits. Yeah, we've also built... What sorts of work are being done by your colleagues? Sure. I mean, we've also built shelters as well, hygiene centres, essentially bathrooms in Rafa

at the moment. But in the time it takes for us to put up one, you know, one unit of bathrooms, you know, there's already thousands more people arriving in Rafa who need them. And we've distributed cash assistance as well from the start of the war, which is essentially that we work alongside the UN agency OCHA to work out who needs essentially cash. But the problem is that the market has collapsed in Gaza and there's no supplies because aid is hardly getting in. So we can give cash assistance to families, but what can they buy? Dirty water, animal feed, and even that's running out at the moment as well. So, you know, we've been advocating since this began that a ceasefire really is the kind of aid that we need to be able to deliver. Because without that ceasefire, we can't get the aid in through Rafah.

Rafah was the only point to be able to send that aid into those people who desperately, desperately need it. And now Rafah is being bombed. We've also seen really stringent conditions put on by the Israeliraeli government in terms of what aid is allowed to be delivered for example in rafa in egypt just across the border you'll hear about warehouses full of aid which has been banned from being crossed over the border into rafa children's jumpers for example won't be allowed to be delivered because of the small zips and they the israeli government will argue those can be used as weapons seeds for example are not allowed to be delivered into Rafah

because they don't want people to grow trees. Now, it's not for us to ascertain as to why that is, but even the aid that people are donating that we're trying to get through the border isn't being allowed in. Israeli families of the hostages have been blocking aid at the border as part of protests in the hopes of getting their loved ones back. Some extremely distressing footage of that. aid at the border as part of protests in the hopes of getting their loved ones back. Some extremely distressing footage of that and when people have been asking why has aid not been able

to get in. The Israeli army has also said that some of the aid they believe goes to Hamas in Gaza. They say there's no evidence of this but for those listening who are asking about why some of those situations are arising at the moment. Those are some of the reasons that have been reported by my colleagues here at the BBC and more widely. Dalia, just to come back to you as a final word, is there anything you wanted to add about what you're hearing from women and children in your conversations at the moment as we try to get a sense of lives in Gaza?

Well, everyone we speak to, whether women or families that are taking care of children who lost their parents, they are, everyone is saying that ceasefire is needed and needed immediately because they cannot care

for their children. They cannot care for their loved ones. I mean, the current situation, they cannot provide them with food and they cannot provide them with food and they cannot provide them with shelter. And we're just talking about the immediate situation now. We're not talking about the days after. We know that by mid-December, nearly 70% of schools in Gaza were destroyed or damaged to a certain extent. So, I mean, at this moment, we're not able to see what's going to happen after

ceasefire to those children who won't be able to have access to education and normal life as it was. But for now, it's mainly the concern of their families to keep them alive and safe. And there is also the issue of, which I covered also recently, the wounded children with no surviving families. This is also a situation where families have to care for children who lost, like their parents, besides their own children. And that's a very heavy burden on these families, because they don't have any financial support, they're barely able to provide food for their own. And now they have more children of their relatives who who lost their families. And many of them also survived those bombings with long life, lifelong disabilities. So they also they have to provide to provide for medical care and all that. And that's another situation that that is difficult and families in Gaza are facing at the moment. Dalia Haidar, Frances Leach, thank you very much to both of you. Tomorrow, we will be hearing a bit about the situation for women and children on the other side of the conflict

in Israel. And thank you for your insights today and those insights into some women and some girls lives and what's been going on there. While we've been talking, messages still coming in about different conversations across the whole of the programme, talking about justice for women and faith in the police here in the UK, still some messages coming on here. Somebody actually writing in to say, very impressed with the police constable we heard at the beginning of the programme, transparency is incredibly brave and an act on its own which counters patriarchal systems that can enable abuse and violence to continue. I'll read some of those messages if I can. But just as we start to close the programme today, just time to be able to tell you about an incredible woman, the three-time Olympic champion,

Shelley-Anne Fraser-Price, who has confirmed she will retire this year after the Summer Games in Paris. The 37-year-old, regarded as one of the greatest sprinters of all time, won the 100m title in 2008 and 2012. The Jamaican star also won Tokyo 2020 Olympic relay gold, plus three of her 10 world titles were achieved in a comeback after giving birth to her son in 2017 the commentator of former sprinter Catherine Merry who of course represented Team GB at both Atlanta and Sydney Olympic Games where I must not say she secured a bronze medal in the 400 meters is here to tell us a bit more Catherine good morning good morning gotta make sure I've got your accolades

in there Team GB all the way it's a lot shorter list than Shelley Anne Fraser-Price. Her career, obviously, a decade and a half of just pure magic. Pure magic. She's going to be very much missed in the world of track and field. And her decision to do this, how's it been received? How should we think about it? It's an interesting one, because when you look at the facts of her career, she's 37 years old now, and she's been at the top of her career she's 37 years old now and she's been at the top of her game for such a long time it's a piece of news that we knew was coming to the world of athletics but myself included I'm not really quite sure I'm ready for the pocket rocket to retire because of the because of the impact that she's had for athletics and the impact that she's

had for women it's she really was running in a golden age of Jamaican sprinting alongside Usain Bolt. So we've got to get used to Shirley-Anne Fraser-Price after Paris this year not being here. And she will leave, I promise you, a massive void because of what she's achieved and the personality that she is. Yes, and that personality, tell us about that, because she is someone people feel connected to.

If you're just listening to this and you're just finding out about her, what would you say? She's a wonderful character. I think everybody, whether they're a big sports fan or not, remembers people that make a difference, that have an impact. And Shelly-Ann Fraser-Price, five foot tall, the pocket rocket mummy. She changes her hair colour all the time. You know, we work on Five Live and say, what colour hair is Shelly fraser price gonna run it what wig is she gonna wear for this race she opened a salon in 2013 she's vibrant she's lively and she's achieved consistently over the decade and a half and she's gone away and had her son zion and come back and still won world title she is a huge huge

name in the world of track and field hence the outpouring was no Shelly Anne Fraser Price is retiring what we're gonna do yeah I mean of course when you're talking about this part of the sport about this part of the world Usain Bolt you know comes to mind are they are they put together a lot how does that happen oh there's so many similarities between their careers and in in sprinting athletics, you have a dominant period by the Americans. They dominate for a while. Then the Jamaicans come along. Then it goes back to America like it is at the moment.

They both won Olympic gold in 2008. Shelly-Ann Fraser-Price and then Usain Bolt. And their careers just went on and on and on. Usain, eight Olympic gold medals, 11 world gold. Shelly-Ann Fraser-Price, you mentioned three Olympic gold medals, 11 world gold. Shelly-Anne Fraser-Price, you mentioned, three Olympic golds, 10 world gold medals. But let's not forget, Shelly-Anne took out a couple of years to have her son. So she could have won a couple more in the bag,

but they are very, very comparable. And they are, for me, she's not one of the greatest of all time. She is the greatest female sprinter ever. Usain Bolt is the greatest male sprinter ever. It's that simple for me she's that good and she's pretty good at the school race can we just talk about this because I've not still done that yet I think I was um just just had the baby the last time it came about for me for the first time for my older child but if you had her in your school community you'd be a little bit

scared and a clip went viral, didn't it? It did. The one thing you don't want to see as a parent and a fellow mom is somebody as Shelly-Anne Fraser-Weiss, her status turning up for the school sports day. But that's how determined and competitive she is. I wouldn't want to see you either, but go on. No, I've never done one because my children wouldn't. But we can't win.

If I race, if Shelly-Anne races, if we win, we're supposed to. If we don't, then somebody lives off that for the rest of their life. But that is the kind of person that she is. Asafa Powell, the former world record holder in the men's 100 metres, did it as well at his kids' sports day. It's like, oh, no, we're not going to win this. But that's the kind of person she is. And quite rightly, she's now said, look, my son is six.

My husband, who I've been married to since 2011, has sacrificed so much for me. It's now I owe them something. I need, my son needs me. I need to spend time in my family and everybody wishes her well. Yeah, but just to be clear, she did thrash the other mums at the school race. And I wonder if she's now going to need to do that

if she's not racing anymore. No, I think she's going to tick it off and go, right, Olympic gold, got three of them. I've won the mom's race case closed well there you go i don't know we were talking it might not be something you relate to but just katherine while i have you as um as as one of our former athletes and now trusted commentators with my former beloved colleagues at five live um as well as anywhere else. I wanted to ask about screaming. We started the show today, the programme today, talking about if women feel the need to scream, to release.

Are you someone who's ever had to do that? Yes, yes, I do. I feel it's very, what's the word I'm looking for? Therapeutic. I do like a good scream. Normally in the presence of just my own company, it has to be said because it's not something I think people need to hear. But oh my gosh, most definitely.

Whatever you feel you need to do, whether it's retiring as the best of all time and running in a kid's race or screaming, you just do what you need to do, right? And of course, of course, we all need to make sure we're all good. We're all good. Get it out. Catherine, thanks for being a good sport. As always, Catherine Merry there

talking about the career of Shelley-Ann Fraser-Pricey. She's not quite ready for the retirement of, but that's what's been confirmed. We wanted to bring you a bit more about her career and why she matters so much to so many.

Going back to police, very interesting messages coming in, not least this one, as we were talking about rebuilding trust. I worked alongside Avon and Somerset Police for many years as a psychiatrist and experienced only professionalism and integrity. Many officers have significant people skills and helped calm situations in which people experiencing mental distress were showing risky behaviours. Perhaps you should empower these officers to challenge their unprofessional colleagues from inside the service. Well, that was what was interesting from Chief Constable Sarah Cruz, who's saying that to that effect.

And you can watch more of that on that Channel 4 programme. I'm a retired senior police officer, if I have time to read this. There are plenty of issues with the police service, a lot related to training and supervision due to financial cuts. All organisations have a small majority of bad apples, but the disproportionate spin being continually given against the police is undermining the service. Did women stop going to doctors when Harold Shipman and the Harold Shipman case came to light? I think not. Reads that message which sounds distinctly frustrated, as I know some of you will do about this. So it's good to have your messages on the programme. Good to have your company as always. And if you need a scream, let it out. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I think the power of the show was crazy back then. The X Factor promised to turn ordinary people into pop stars. We stood there behind the doors when 16 million people were about to watch you go on stage and Simon just stood next to you like, good luck girls, good luck.

I'm Chi-Chi Zundu. For years, I was a BBC showbiz journalist who covered every twist and turn. I want to go behind the scenes to find out from staff and contestants what it was like. You don't just want average people. You wanted, you know, it was so bad. They were comical. I feel like I was humiliated just for the entertainment. Did wanted, you know, it was so bad. They were comical.

I feel like I was humiliated just for the entertainment. Did the show ever come back and they said to me, Sam, will you come on and do it again? I'd be like, what time do you want me? Over six episodes, I'm looking back at the good and the bad of one of Britain's biggest TV shows. For BBC Radio 4, this is Offstage, inside the X Factor. Listen on BBC Sounds. like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.