Woman's Hour - Budget 2023 Childcare, FGM report, Sex education in schools, Courting India, Country-pop duo Ward Thomas

Episode Date: March 15, 2023

Today’s budget announcement is expected to include an expansion of free childcare provision for working parents in England for one and two-year-olds. The plans will be outlined by the Chancellor in full later today. Director of the Institute for Fiscal Studies Paul Johnson joins Nuala McGovern to talk through what the changes could mean for parents looking to get back to work. A major report has been published today, looking into the experiences of survivors of FGM in accessing post-FGM healthcare in the UK. Nuala speaks to Dr Laura Jones, University of Birmingham, one of the lead authors on the report; Mama Sylla, a survivor of FGM who has been recognised by the government for her work in raising awareness of FGM and Juliet Albert, Specialist FGM Midwife at Imperial College.Are children being exposed to inappropriate materials during sex education classes? Nuala discusses with BBC Education Correspondent, Elaine Dunkley.How were the origins of Empire and the British arrival in India in the 17 century shaped by the women in the Mughal Harem? The new book Courting India tells the story of the first English embassy to India, with a focus including the children and the women both in and outside of the Mughal Harem that played a significant role behind the scenes. Nuala speaks to it author, Nandini Das, Professor of Early Modern English Literature and Culture at Oxford University.,Ward Thomas are an English modern country-pop duo, composed of twin sisters Catherine and Lizz.y. They first visited Nashville at the age of 17. They will soon set off on a UK tour, and have a new album, Music In The Madness, which includes themes of Love, family, unity and the healing power of music. They join Nuala to talk about their music and to perform live the song Love Does.Presented by Nuala McGovern Producer: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, good morning and welcome to Woman's Hour. Well, Chancellor, Jeremy Hunt's rabbit in the hat. His budget surprise hopped out a day early. The Guardian newspaper reported last night that there is a £4 billion expansion of free childcare in England for one and two-year-olds. It's expected to be announced

today and to provide an extra 30 hours a week of childcare. Its aim, as you may have heard a little in the news bulletin there as well, is to encourage more parents back into the workforce. So we're going to get into the details of what else is expected on childcare

in the Chancellor's Budget Address today. And I'd like to know from you, if you are someone who would like to re-enter working outside the home, will this expected change encourage you to look for a job? Will it make a difference? You can text the programme.

The number is 84844 or on social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour or indeed you can email us through our website. If you'd like to send a WhatsApp message or a voice note, that number is 03700 100 444. Also this morning, a

Women's Hour exclusive, a major report has been published, released in just the past few minutes looking into the experiences of survivors of female genital mutilation, or FGM, and also on accessing post-FGM healthcare in the UK. The care is a postcode lottery, according to the report, so we'll get into the details of that. And we have Ward Thomas in our Women's Hour studio today. They're a country pop duo, twins, hailing from Hampshire, but spending a lot of time in Nashville as well. They're going to be performing live for us.

So a little bit of country music for you this morning, which I am also looking forward to. And we have historian Nandini Das. She'll be here to tell us about the earliest days of the British Empire. Through her masterful detective work, Nandini brings the women of the Mughal Harem in India to life. So we're going to hear how they shaped that time in the 17th century. But let me begin.

As part of the spring budget announcement today, the Chancellor is reportedly considering expanding free childcare to under two-year-olds in England. So currently, three and four-year-olds get at least 15 hours of free childcare to under two-year-olds in England. So currently, three and four-year-olds get at least 15 hours of free childcare per week, increasing to 30 hours for working parents. The government is expected, and I say expected because it hasn't been confirmed

by the government, to expand this 30-hour entitlement to children aged nine months to three years. Equivalent funding is expected to be announced then for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Let me bring in Paul Johnson, Director of the Institute for Fiscal Studies. Good to have you with us, Paul. So what about this expected announcement? How significant do you think it is, particularly in relation to getting parents back into the workforce?

Yeah, this is a really big announcement. announcement I mean we've had gradual expansions of the universal entitlement over the last 20 years or so at the moment we've got 30 hours for three and four-year-olds if both parents are in work 15 hours for all three and four-year-olds and only a very limited offer for some two-year-olds so making this available to all one and two-year-olds very quite expensive a few billion pounds depending on exactly how they fund it and it should have some impact on getting parents into work though the biggest impact will probably be for those parents who are currently paying for child care who will then see that they're having to spend rather less than they are at the moment but yes some people will move from no work into part-time work and some who are currently working part-time

will now feel they can go full-time. But I wouldn't expect this to have a huge effect on numbers of people in work. Yeah, because a lot of people are saying this is shaping up to be the election issue, for example, and it's definitely something that comes up with our listeners again and again. With 30 hours, why do you think they settle on that figure?

Well, that's the amount that is currently available for three and four-year-olds. It's sort of equivalent to the number of hours that younger children spend in school through the week. So I think the idea is to replicate that rather than to provide the full 40 hours. And for people, if they want the full 40 hours or more to be able to pay for that on top now actually the majority of people entitled to the full 30 hours don't take it actually the majority 60 or so don't take the full entitlement even that is there so there is clearly a a large fraction a majority in fact of of parents who decide that they don't want to be working even that amount or using that amount of uh child care and prefer to spend more time themselves with uh

with the children but i think the the government's reason for doing this if you're working full-time you can be part of it and no reason to provide more than is provided at school it's interesting though isn't it because if people aren't taking it as you describe or only partially taking it I wonder if the government's plan to try and get people back into work will actually be an encouragement or move people in that way if in fact some people aren't using it as it's structured at the moment well as with all these things um most of the money will go to people who would have been paying for child care anyway as i suppose and as i said that will uh they will welcome that obviously because they'll be better off but there will clearly be some uh families who make different decisions about their working hours so this will you know we we know from uh evidence around the world that cheaper or free child care does make some difference to particularly mothers decisions about to whether to work and how

much to work i think one of the worries for the government might be that this overwhelmingly incentivizes part-time work and possibly quite low paid part-time work and i'm afraid a lot of the work that we've done suggests that part-time work is not'm afraid a lot of the work that we've done suggests that part-time work is not very helpful in terms of developing longer-term careers that actually if what parents mothers are particularly concerned about is their long-term career then part-time work is often almost as damaging as spending time out of the workforce. Gosh that is a very interesting concept and one we could explore further. But I do have some more questions for you specifically on this.

So what do there are some figures that the government are putting out when it comes to how much somebody should be earning to be able to qualify for this? Effectively, people need to be earning something like £150 a week. The idea being that 16 hours a week um on the uh on the national on the national living wage so this is only available to people who are working something approaching um uh full time uh or not very small numbers of hours and not for people who aren't working and it's linked to the national living wage and may i also go to ratios there are reports that changes could be introduced to the staff to child ratios for two- olds in childcare in England, moving from one carer for every four children to one to five to align with Scotland. Now, this was something that was considered very controversial any time we've spoken about it on this programme.

Why do you think the government has taken that change or expected change? Well, obviously, if nurseries move to that, then the cost of the programme reduces quite significantly. I mean, by 20 percent, if that's the change that nurseries make. So that makes the whole programme somewhat more affordable, as you say. It's not just Scotland. It wouldn't be particularly unusual by international comparisons again that said a lot of nurseries will tell you that that's not something they would be you want to do or even be willing to do because of the concerns about how difficult it is to look after that number of very small children the other issue of course is is one of straightforward capacity in the system. I mean, if this really does result in a big increase in demand,

it's not at all obvious that the childcare system will be able to provide very large numbers of additional places. The level of funding that's currently available has gone down for the free entitlement quite significantly relative to costs over the last few years. And and to some extent parents who are paying out of pocket are actually subsidizing the government because they pay more than what the government pays in order to subsidize those places so anything I think from the government's point of view which which might bring the cost down a bit will be helpful. Why is child care so expensive? Well it's an expensive thing to provide. But so much more here in the UK than it is in other countries that we've looked at. Well I think there are a

series of reasons for that. I mean partly it's to do with the extent to which this is simply provided by the state in some other countries as opposed to it being a mixed economy between state and very often private provision here. And so what you see as cost in other countries is just clearly something that's subsidised. And clearly also in cities here, particularly places like London, the cost of rent and accommodation is particularly high. But it's the same number of care, you have the carers, you have the cost of the building and so on. It's entirely down to, or largely down to where the subsidy or how the subsidy is provided. And one of the problems here

is that the subsidy system is so incredibly complicated. We've got eight separate ways through tax relief, through the benefit system, through the free entitlement, different elements of the free entitlement for subsidising this. And often, actually, I think parents aren't even aware of what they can get. I mean, a significant fraction, a lot of people who are entitled, for example, to tax relief on their childcare don't claim it because they're not aware it's available. Interesting. Speaking of funding, do we know how the government would fund this £4 billion? I mean, in the end, it comes out of a trillion pound budget. It's something that there's room for manoeuvre on.

I think what we'll hear today is that the economy is a bit better this year and next. And so there's a little bit of additional space to spend more but I think we'll also hear that the government's pushing right up against its own fiscal rules I mean the Chancellor said he wants debt to be coming down in five years time and I guess that this will just about be affordable within that limit, but only just affordable within that limit. But it's a very striking increase in spending and a very striking sort of additional leg to the welfare state very gradually over the last 20, 25 years.

The state has moved into provision of childcare. Remember, 25 years ago, it didn't do any of this. And now we're getting free entitlement from nine months all the way up to school age it's a big change thanks so much for speaking to us that's paul johnson from the institute for fiscal studies tomorrow we will be discussing the spring budget in greater detail and looking what's in it and maybe what's not in it for women and if you've been waiting for news not just about child care costs, but benefits, reform and pensions,

do tune in tomorrow. Anita Ranney will be here with the latest on how it might affect you and your family. Lots of you getting in touch already, 84844 in the text, as I mentioned,

about this change, how you're seeing it. Ruth got in touch. She says, one of the reasons people over 55 are not in work is that they're providing free childcare

for their grandchildren so that their adult children can make ends meet. In my case, I make a 210 mile round trip on alternate weeks to look after my grandchildren. I can't find a part-time job

that will fit around this. That's an interesting aspect of it. Let me see, another gets in touch. I was about to give up work because it didn't make financial sense. I have a three and a one-year-old.

If I get 30 free hours for my one-year-old, I can stay and work. So a real change there. Another from Matt, childcare is never going to be as good as the parent being present and conscious during those essential early years. Support parents to do the best job they can. They shouldn't have to

rush back to work because then the child doesn't get the best attention that it deserves. That comment coming in from Matt, if you'd like to chime in on whether this expected announcement from the Chancellor will make a difference to you, do get in touch, 84844,

or indeed at BBC Woman's Hour on social media. Now, however, I want to bring you a Woman's Hour exclusive. A major report has been published today looking into the experiences of survivors of FGM, that's female genital mutilation,

and in accessing post-FGM healthcare in the UK. The report identifies a postcode lottery existing across the UK where pockets offer excellent care while other areas show failings in appropriate and survivor-focused healthcare being offered. We're going to have three guests to talk about this. Dr Laura Jones from the University of Birmingham

is one of the lead authors on the report and joins me to discuss its findings. We're also going to have Mama Cilla, who's a survivor of FGM, who's been recognised by the government for her work in raising awareness, and also Juliet Albert, specialist female genital mutilation midwife

at Imperial College. You're all very welcome to the programme. And Laura, let me start with you. Some people may not be completely aware of what the term FGM, what it consists of. Can you define it for them? Oh, good morning. So FGM involves injuring or removing parts of a girl or a woman's external genitalia where there's no medical reason to do so. There's no health benefits of FGM and many women and girls experience lifelong negative consequences as a result. And there are different types? There are, there are four main types of FGM with the most serious or severe being type three which involves

basically cutting and sewing together of the genitalia, leaving just a really small hole to menstruate or urinate through. And women and girls with type 3 FGM can have an operation to open their vagina. We call it de-infibulation. And that's been shown to improve health and well-being for those women with that particular type of FGM. Do we know how many women we are talking about in the UK that are survivors of FGM? Not really. So our data aren't very accurate or reliable at the moment. We tend to find that because actually it's a hidden practice. It means that women and girls need to present in healthcare for us to be able to document and record that.

There was a study that was published in 2015 using the 2011 census data that, based on a woman's country off Earth, suggested that there were 137,000 women and girls living with the consequences of FGM in the UK at that time. There has been some more recent data from NHS Digital, from the FGM enhanced data set, where that requires GPs and NHS trusts to record data. There was about 40,000 healthcare appearances for FGM between 2015 and 2019. But we don't currently have great kind of reliable data about the prevalence of FGM but we do know from the evidence base at the moment that women and girls tend to live in all of the different local authorities across England and Wales and so an important healthcare kind of need across the UK. So with this study the findings that are just being released in the

past few minutes what should our listeners know? OK, so we undertook one of the largest studies of its kind in the UK. What we wanted to do was to understand what survivors, men and health care professionals think about current services, what's working, what's not working and whether we can improve things going forward. Can I stop you for a second? Just because when I was reading about this and it said survivors, men and health care professionals, and people might wonder, why are men thrown in the middle of that? And what men are we talking about? Of course. So these were men whose partners or family members had experienced FGM.

And we know from the open space that the men's views are important and that they are involved in FGM and we know from the open space that the men's views are important and that they are involved in in FGM and that their health and well-being can also be impacted by if their partner or wife has been cut and thinking about whether we need to offer services to men and hear their voices as well as survivors and thinking about supporting FGM affected communities who live in the UK. And when you say the word cut of course you're talking about people who have gone through FGM. Sorry, continue, Laura. So with the findings. Okay, so some survivors told us that they had really good positive experiences of healthcare in the UK. However, these tended to be relatively few and far between. We found that FGM care was

inconsistent. It varied greatly across the country. Survivors told us that they didn't know where to go for help or how to ask for it. And even when they were able to access support, the services available to them were often limited. It limited their choice and their preferences for care. Generally, there was good help to support the physical needs of FGM survivors, but there was much less support around their mental health needs. And this is really important given the trauma that some survivors might experience around their FGM. Survivors also told us that they would prefer to be able to have de-infibulation, so that opening surgery for women and girls of type three, before they got pregnant and ideally before they got married. However, most services were only

available as part of maternity care and delivered within maternity settings. They also told us that they prefer FGM services to be run from hospital-based gynae clinics and not maternity settings. They talked to us about the potential stigma attached to being seen in a maternity setting if you're not pregnant and you're not married. Overall, survivors and their families are not getting the right information at the right time to make informed choices about their own health and wellbeing. And why is FGM in the maternity setting? That surprises me. We know that most women are identified as having FGM in a maternity setting. So we ask at booking now, when you first access antenatal care,

you know, are you affected by FGM? Have you been cut? So it's likely that often these women present in maternity settings. It's the first time they might be having a conversation about FGM. And that's likely why the maternity services were the starting point and why maternity services

and FGM care has grown out of maternity services. I want to bring in Mama Silla. You're welcome to the programme, Mama. starting point and why maternity services and FGM care has grown out of maternity services. I want to bring in Mama Cilla. You're welcome to the programme, Mama. And I know you always knew you'd had FGM, but you didn't know much more than that until you became pregnant, which really goes to Laura's point there. Can you tell us a little bit about that and your encounter, I suppose, your first encounter with a health care professional when it came to FGM in the UK. Good morning. Thank you for having me. Oh yes, I came from a country with the highest prevalence of FGM, which is Guinea. So basically every woman and girl is caught and I grew up knowing it's normal until I got pregnant seven years ago. And then I went to the hospital for my antenatal appointment.

So my big surprise, I missed one appointment. I went away to France. Then I was called, really. They said, why did you miss it? I said, well, I'm not sure it was that important because I've been coming often. They said, no, you must come. So when I came back, I went to the hospital then I I walked in I saw the midwife then she said to me oh you have you been caught I said yes I said why she

said well um do you know what type of FGM did you have basically that was the first time I'm hearing about type I didn't even know there was type that existed. So I was sitting, sorry. Sorry, excuse me. No, take your time. Thank you. I said, no, really, I don't know if there is even type of FGM. She said, well, do you mind us checking? I said, no, I don't mind. Then she went on, she checked.

Then she said to me, do you know the low side of FGM in the UK yeah again I said no nothing really I don't know I never questioned like my FGM because again my community will like every woman is cut so for me it's normal and she said well at the moment we don't even know whether you're having a boy or girl however I just let know, once you have the baby and you happen to go back to your country of origin and your mother or family members take the baby and cut her if she's a girl, when you come back, you're going to be into trouble. They will send you to prison and then you lose your child. So I was kind of shocked.

Because you didn't realize it was illegal in the UK? No, no Because you didn't realise it was illegal in the UK? No, no, I didn't realise it was illegal in the UK. And myself, I didn't know, like, their type of FGM. So I was really shocked. And if it's OK to ask you, do you know now what type of FGM that you hired? Yes, eventually, when my midwife checked me, she said to me, yeah, you have type 1. I said, OK.

OK. Yes, she did mention that. So that would be different to what Laura was talking about, particularly with that procedure. Were you happy with the way you interacted with that health care professional? Did you get good care, do you think? Yeah, the very first time, yes was um uh dr clark she was the midwife in in within in whittington hospital yeah she was she was really like um open and she told me i was happy the way we interacted but i was uh what i was like i wanted to do to know more

like digging deeper to know really more about like those type of things. And then how older women from my own community, if they know more about it. So obviously when I left, we had about like 30 minutes now, then she, 30 minutes to 40 minutes, then she gave me some leaflets, then I left. But again, I was shocked and I wanted to know more now so what so what I did while I was sitting coming back home on the bus I was like checking what organization work on FGM if there is any member of my community involved so basically when I checked all the organization that I found while I was Googling on the internet, they do work on FGM, but mainly with communities from Somalia and Sierra Leone or the Gambia, but nothing from Guinea.

I understand then you did your own survey of sorts, asking your friends what they knew. Yeah, so I did my own survey from my family and friends from Guinea, obviously, to know what they know about their own experience of FGM. And I questioned about like 20 women. It's like 15 of them didn't know about type of FGM. They just knew that they've been caught, but they know nothing about type. Then I realized, again again when I check on those organizations working on FGM when I didn't see Guinea mentioned they always mentioned Guinea being the second highest country however in the UK here the community members they were not involved in

those kind of talk. So I did my own research then the survey survey. Then I said, well, I think it's something that we need to do something about it. We need to talk about it. Because as for me, I never talked about it, spoke to the Imam. We have a mosque somewhere in Peckham where we have this Guinean community. West African community is mainly women that attend. So we organized the first workshop there. People were happy. I saw a lady who had type 3, obviously, what Lola was mentioning about. This was the first time she saw someone from her own community talking about it. So when we finished the workshop, she wept on the floor. And I was like, oh, why are you crying?

She said, well, I've been wanting to talk about my own experience for years, but I couldn't because I didn't see anybody from my own community talking about it. Then, yes. As for me, yes. You made that happen, which is which is really quite incredible isn't it yeah so i made it happen and then she was able to talk to me then we have this good really from that day on we were just chatting she become my friend because she's my sister in fact because she's coming from the same place i come and yes for me. Sorry, Mama, to interrupt you, go ahead.

No, no, no, no. For me, because I had a boy then, that was it. From that day on, no one ever spoke to me about it, about the FGM. Well, I want to bring in Juliette because you're a specialist FGM midwife. And I wonder when you hear Mama's story again and also of her friend, she calls her sister now as well who had gone through type 3 what's going through your head

about what needs to be in place for these women? Well I think thank you Mama it's just such important to hear that that how something like having a health advocate working in the clinic, somebody who the women can identify with, having a woman who actually comes from an FGM practicing community working in the clinic with us. So they act as a bridge between the clinic and the clinic staff and the actual women so that they have a similar background. They may not have actually had FGM themselves, but they come from FGM-practicing communities. They might be second generation, but they understand the history and they share the women's identity.

So having that kind of cultural sensitivity is really important in FGM clinics. And the other thing I think that was important from what Mama was saying is having a counsellor in the clinic as well. Because Mama's saying, you know, she had half an hour and that was important from what mama was saying is is having a counsellor in the clinic as well um because mama's saying you know she had half an hour and that was it then she's kind of left and then she's got to go home with all those memories and thoughts about when she was cut and how she felt about it so having a counsellor integrated and sort of co-located in the clinic with us is really really important so that women can have support if they need to talk about their trauma and giving them some sort of longer term help. Yeah, I think what I'm struck by as well is that, Mama, for example, you went with a medical issue that you are pregnant and you're looking for health care. But of course, then it goes into this whole other aspect. And it's not just about the physical.

It's very much about the mental as well. What would you like to see, Mama, for people who are coming forward, whether it's you or your friend in a health care setting? As Juliet mentioned, I would like to see someone from like those practicing countries into the setting over there because sometimes I can walk into the clinic if I see someone that doesn't look like me or have gone the same experience like him. I don't have the courage really to talk about my own things, about my own experience. The other thing, sometimes

what people, women tend to be shy or not wanting to go to those places. Like once they go and they'll be sitting with one professional, for example, one health professional. Then the next minute they can see two, three people without knowing why all those people are surrounding them. And again, sometimes those women, they can't understand the language, so it's kind of difficult. So it's trying to make that accessible. I am also really interested, Mama, you know, Laura had mentioned that men were part of the report that they were putting together. What is the reaction in

your community to, and I'm talking about the partners maybe or the men in the community because obviously it is illegal here obviously it's something that was considered um pretty much a rite of passage or quite normal in some communities in Guinea I mean what are you hearing when you speak out about it and you bring attention to it? From my own experience, again, when I said at the beginning, I was shocked and I wanted to find out more. What I did is like to speak to, after I spoke to some of the women in the community, I spoke to my own family because Guinea, for instance, everybody, the daughters of lawyers, the daughters

of, you know, health professionals, everyone is caught. The law is there, but it's not implemented. So what I did, I spoke to my own family first. I said to them, for example, this is what's going on. It's not illegal. Why? For example, my mom, I kind of had a meeting with them and my brothers. So I said to them, why this was so important to you guys because as for me

I found out now it's not really in in in a medical setting is not really good for women then my mom was like well I didn't go to school I was caught and then all like the women in my side as well where I got does what he throws in. At the moment, for example, in the UK here, men are very supportive. I can say, for example, I can talk to my husband, about my husband, he's very supportive of me. And he understands and he's not really,

not going to go like and talk to, like to put his daughter through FGM. Yes, I understand. We wish you all the best, Mama. Mama Silla, a survivor of FGM, recognised by the government for her work in raising awareness of it. Julie Albert, specialist FGM midwife at Imperial College. And we also had Dr. Laura Jones from the University of Birmingham, a lead author on that study into the aftercare offered to survivors of FGM living in the UK. And that report just published over the past half hour.

Thanks very much for coming on Woman's Hour. Now, we're speaking a little bit earlier about childcare, about the government's expansion of free childcare to two and three year olds. And you are getting in touch telling me what difference that will make for you. Here is Liz. She's in Lewis. She says, I've just found out I'm pregnant with twins. Congratulations.

And she says, I have a four year old. I've been working full time as a manager, having had to cover extremely expensive childcare costs until my son hit three. I love my job and was getting extremely worried I'd have to give it up

or reduce my hours significantly since I couldn't have afforded paying for two. Well, this could make a huge positive difference. Liz, we have twins coming in in just a minute singing for you. So stay with us for that. Another. I live in Finland with very affordable childcare, which I'm really thankful for. However, mental health issues among children are very high. And while it's important for parents to be able to work if they want, it's also important to talk about the challenges that come with kids being in childcare from the time they are babies.

That point brought up by another listener as well. Another. This news about 30 hours free, including from one years of age is giving the green light for my husband and I to try for another baby. Oh, a lot of baby making this morning. We don't have any family support to help with care so this makes an incredible difference.

Thank you. Don't know who that is, but getting in touch. Well, that's good news. All very positive and hopeful. Coming in, 84844. Please do get in touch with your stories. We love to hear them. Now, I want to stay with schools, really, childcare.

We're talking about the early years. Let's move on to kids that are a little bit older. Teachers, you probably know if you have kids or if you are a teacher or if you are a pupil. Teachers in thousands of schools across England are striking again over pay. The unions want above inflation increases plus extra money to ensure rises

do not come from existing budgets. But schools have also been in the news for this reason. Last week, Conservative MP Miriam have also been in the news for this reason. Last week, Conservative MP Miriam Cates claimed in the Commons that children were being exposed to graphic and age-inappropriate material during their sex education classes. Leading the Prime Minister, Rishi Sunak, he decided to bring forward a review of the Department for Education's Relationship and Sex Education Guidance in England.

So is there any evidence that children in England are being taught the things that Miriam Kate said in their sex education classes? I got to speak to the BBC's education correspondent, Elaine Dunkley, just before the programme. It all started with Miriam Kate's statements during Prime Minister's questions last week. So I asked Elaine just exactly what did she say? Yes, so Miriam Kate said graphic lessons on oral sex, how to choke your partner safely and 72 genders. This is what passes for relationship and sex education in British schools.

Across the country, children are being subjected to lessons that are age inappropriate, extreme, sexualising and inaccurate, and often using resources from unregulated organisations that are actively campaigning to undermine parents. Now, in 2021, Miriam Cates set up the new Social Covenant unit. The website says it's about promoting ideas and policy with a focus on families and communities, and it's produced a damning report that there is widespread indoctrination of children who are being shown age-inappropriate, sexually explicit

material in schools across England as part of relationship, sex and health education. The report suggests that this is putting the nation's children at risk, risk of ideological persuasion to harm, exploitation online, intrusive sexualisation and children being politically indoctrinated with ideas

that are destructive to a sense of self, of family and even nationhood. Now, teaching unions say these are shocking claims and schools are doing their best to teach children and young people about relationships in a sensitive and age appropriate manner. The Association of School and College Leader says the vast majority of schools are incredibly cautious and sensible about teaching of relationships and sex education, and it disagrees with the sweeping generalisation and inflammatory rhetoric from Miriam Cates in the Commons. Now, the National Association of Head Teachers have said, you know, it's hard to be anything other than deeply concerned by these claims, and says that the overwhelming majority of schools are doing nothing more

than following the government's own statutory guidance when it comes to relationships and sex education. So a difference of opinion there. But is there any evidence to support Miriam Kate's claims? Well what parents and young people want is guidance and support that this is age appropriate and helps and prepares them to understand what healthy positive relationships look like. Now parents will be alarmed at the idea that children in schools are being sexualized and corrupted with extreme and graphic discussions and content taught to them by teachers. But there is very little evidence of this. Now, there are thousands of state schools in England following the curriculum and helping pupils navigate, you know, what's a difficult, what is a difficult part of growing up and understanding themselves.

And there may be some cases where they've got it wrong. Now, the issue about genders and being taught numbers about genders relates to a case on the Isle of Man where sex education has been suspended amid reports of controversial lessons. A parent says her child was told in a lesson that more than 70 genders exist and when a son disagreed, he was removed from class. Now, the headteacher, however, says a lot of what's been reported online is inaccurate and this is an issue that the Isle of Man government is looking into. As far as

schools in England are concerned, there's been no evidence that children are being taught about choking in school as part of relationship, sex and health education. And what I will say is that children are being exposed to material pornography of an extreme violent nature online. Relationship, sex and health education in secondary schools is about creating an environment and a safe space for young people to ask questions, learn, understand sex, relationships, consent, expectations and fears. And teachers are having to respond to discussions and questions driven by young people. And what children are exposed to has massively changed due to the Internet. And so, for example, a pupil might ask about things they've watched or they may feel pressurised into doing something they've seen. And so teachers won't be demonstrating and encouraging children

on how to choke each other, but they will be talking to them about consent, peer pressure and what healthy relationships look like. Another example, a child in a class at secondary school may, for example, ask whether you can get STDs from oral sex. It's about age-appropriate conversations. It's not about teachers encouraging children to do this. It's about safety, the confidence to say no to things,

well-being and giving young people information that they might need in the future. And some of the questions that children ask might require a one-to-one response, not necessarily a group discussion, depending on the nature of the question. And questions might also flag safeguarding issues for young people. This is about schools being alert to things like sexism, misogyny, homophobia, gender stereotypes and building a culture where these things are not tolerated.

And you bring up an interesting point there Elaine because it could be something that's not on the curriculum that may come up in the classes. And I suppose that's where we get varying narratives as well. Where does the current curriculum for sex education come from? And are there differences of what is taught around the country? I know you mentioned the Isle of Man there. Yeah, so since September 2020, relationships education has been compulsory for pupils at primary school. And for all pupils in secondary school, school relationships sex and health education is mandatory and i think it's about recognizing the world that young people live in you know different family structures different relationships you know

young people can be heterosexual gay lesbian bisexual trans non-binary asexual they may not want labels it's about every single one of these young people being supported and feeling valued now schools are free to determine how to deliver the content set out in the guidance and work with It's about every single one of these young people being supported and feeling valued. Now, schools are free to determine how to deliver the content set out in the guidance and work with different external agencies to engage with young people in an age-appropriate way. There will be differences because the current guidance states that schools should ensure that the policy meets the needs of pupils and parents and reflects the community they serve. So government guidance on relationships and sex education indicates schools must teach about LGBT relationships

to comply with the Equality Act of 2010. However, the same guidance states faith schools, including those which are state-funded, may teach the distinctive faith perspective on relationships. The government guidance says schools should make the curriculum, content and material available to parents on request and engage proactively with parents on how they're teaching sensitive issues. And also parents will have a right to request that their child is withdrawn from sex education, but not from relationship education. Interesting. It has led to a review of the Department of Education's relationships and sex education guidance in England being brought forward.

But the review, it was already planned, right? Yes. Given that this is a relatively new and a very important part of the curriculum, the plan was always to carry out a review every three years. The review covers state schools in England, and teaching unions say they welcome this as part of an ongoing process of ensuring that schools and teachers are well supported in delivering this topic. Now Miriam Cates and almost 50 other Conservative MPs including Priti Patel the former Home Secretary, Simon Clarke the

former levelling up secretary were calling for an independent inquiry. That's not on the cards at this stage but there's and there's no exact date for the review but it will be sooner rather than later this year. Thanks very much to Elaine Dunkley. Well, we want to hear from you, whether you're a parent, teacher or pupil. What are your thoughts on the way that sex education is currently being taught in schools? Do you know what your school does and when? And are the things you care about being covered? Do let us know by email via the Woman's Hour website, because we will be returning to this topic in more detail for a special programme very soon and we want to reflect your views

so do email us in on that. Right, now I want to turn to how the origins of empire and the British arrival in India in the 17th century was shaped by the women of the Mughal Harem. When Thomas Rowe arrived in India

in 1616 as James I, the first ambassador to the Mughal Empire, the English barely had a toehold in the subcontinent. There's a new book, Courting India, which tells the story of that first English embassy to India and focuses some of its story on those that are often getting written out of those big sweeping studies of empire, including the children and the women in the Mughal harem that plays a big role behind the scenes.

The person to tell us about it is Nandini Das, Professor of Early Modern English Literature and Culture at Oxford University. Very welcome to Woman's Hour. Hi, Nuala. It's very good to join you and your audience. Thank you for inviting me. You're so welcome. Let's talk about Thomas Rowe arriving in India in 1616. Set the scene for us. Where was he really travelling from and what was it like where he was about to arrive in?

Well, the interesting thing about Rowe's position at this point is that it's so counterintuitive to what we expect from the relationship between India and England in this period. So just to put you in the picture, Great Britain doesn't really exist as a political concept at this point. It has been newly united under James VI of Scotland and I of England, but it's still a very fragile concept. James wants a dynastic union of Scotland and England, but there's fierce resistance on both sides. He's also struggling with the aftermaths of the plague. There are court scandals and corruption, but the greatest challenge is the economy. James himself, the crown itself, is skirting very close to serious monetary trouble crisis at this point. And also nationally, the English merchants are desperately seeking new markets for trade in the wider world, which would replace the European ones that they had lost.

So there's an overwhelming sense of being late in the game. And that's where Roe enters the scene. The East India Company, which is just about 14 years old at this point, petitions James that they really need to do something seriously about getting a toehold in India. And they sent Roe off as the first ambassador. And to the Mughal Empire. And I'm just fascinated. I want our listeners to know about the Hareems and the women who lived in them and their place in this power play of the encounters between England and Roe and India.

How would you describe them? Well, I think it's important to remember the difference in scale between England and the Mughal Empire in this period as well. The Mughals are one of the most powerful global forces in this period. In fact, one of Roe's predecessors point out that the Mughal Emperor Jahangir's annual revenue, which is about 54 million sterling, is over 100 times more than the annual revenue of England at this point. Now, the women, of course, lived by Islamic laws. So they were behind pardah. They were segregated from the men. And that meant that there was a great deal of fascination among European travellers

about what was going on in the internal quarters and the women's quarters in this period. There's a lot of imagined stories, scandalous stories about the going zone behind the curtains, essentially. But in effect, what you had in the harems of the Islamic empires was a really structured, intricate domestic community, almost a city within a city. And certainly in the Mughal Empire, that city within the city was multilingual and multicultural. You had different women from different nationalities,

religions, languages, social classes, who occupied a private space that was inaccessible to outsiders, essentially. But they had their own power structures. And can we turn to one woman? I know you mentioned Noor Jahan, for example, Maryam Begum and Hurra al-Nisa. But women like Noor Jahan, they were hidden from view, as you mentioned. So how did they exert influence or, you know, change opinions? Well, you know, our perception of the Mughal harem tends to veer between extremes, either it's imprisonment or utter hedonism, either it's invisibility, or, you know, real kind of political wheeling and dealing. I think the reality was between the two.

Women like Noor Jahan used the power they had in order to kind of move pieces on the chess set, so to say, from behind the curtains to some extent. Nur Jahan is the 20th wife of the Mughal Emperor Jahangir, the fourth Mughal Emperor. And she is also his favorite wife. So she wields enormous power from behind the curtains. But she's not the only one. The Mughal emperors write from the founder, Baba, who writes wonderfully about the political acumen that he received from his grandmother and his mother were all deeply kind of connected to their mother figures, not only their own mothers, but their foster mothers, who wielded huge influence. So the Mughal queens quite often would be in charge of the official seal of the

Mughal emperor. But Nur Jahan particularly is a wonderful example of the kind of delicate negotiation of power that a woman could exercise, even within all the restrictions that they had upon their lives. But with all those restrictions, Landini, I'm wondering how difficult was it to find out information about a woman like her? Particularly, I mean, even the living quarters, as you've mentioned to us, were so hidden. How did you do your detective work? Well, the difficulty applied as much to people like Roe, Thomas Roe, who could only hear about these things at secondary move, as it does to us as, you know, researchers trying to figure out those lives. Now, quite often, the information we get is in passing or in fragments, particularly with people like Nur Jahan.

Even among her contemporaries, people were deeply uncomfortable with that idea of a woman wielding so much power. So sometimes, as one of the most recent biographers of Nur Jahan say, you have to look around the towering male figures who bias that story in some ways. You have to read the architecture of the places they occupied and take little fragments that exist in various places in historical records. So, for instance, in my case, one of the figures that I was really taken with is someone who's really mentioned only in passing in Rose Account. And this is a little three-year-old Mughal girl, the first grandchild of the Mughal Emperor Jahangir, who dies at the age of three, three and a half, very, very suddenly. And the whole court is plunged into grief. We only hear about her in passing through Jahangir's own memoirs. Roe doesn't even

have a clue why the court has stopped all political negotiation. But for me, she becomes a symbol of this silence that exists around the presence of the women. It's so interesting. And then you have to get into that nothingness and try and understand exactly what it was that was there. Amazing detective work. Nandini Das is a professor of early modern English literature and culture at Oxford University.

Her new book is Courting India. Thanks so much for joining us on Woman's Hour. I want to turn to Ward Thomas now. They're an English modern country pop duo composed of twin sisters, Catherine and Lizzie Ward Thomas, born two minutes apart.

They first visited Nashville at the age of 17. Cartwheels, their second studio album, became the first album by a UK country actor to reach number one on the UK albums chart.

And they are setting off on a UK tour, but they have a new album, Music in the Madness which includes themes of love, family, unity and the healing power of music. They're with me live in studio. I grew up around a lot of country music, a lot of Irish people did. I'm wondering how you did because I was thinking that was somewhat unexpected perhaps living in Hampshire, Lizzie and welcome. Oh well thank you. Hello. We grew up around the rural.

We were very on a farm. We were in the rural background, and we were introduced to country music by our cousin Libby, who was from Canada. She bought all the Dixie Chicks, Miranda Lambert. We were also heavily influenced by our parents. We were in a band together, but they did 60s and 70s rock classics.

So we were bound to get into music, but country music just felt the most authentic to Catherine and I. And even at a younger age, Catherine, 17, I believe, you headed off to Nashville. Yeah, we were literally doing our A-levels and then getting on a plane. So it was quite, yeah, it was quite go, go, go at that point. I think it's still going to be go, go, go because you're pregnant, I believe, and about to start a UK tour. Yeah, we hit the road next week, is it? On the 30th of March. In two weeks, yeah. The first show in Glasgow and then we snake our way down the country and I'll be eight months pregnant.

So it should be quite fun. I don't know how much jumping around I'll be doing on the stage. You can lean on Lizzie for that. I'll do that for you. I'll look like a crazy person jumping around on stage. There is a song, Flower Crown. Tell me about that. So Flower Crown is the last song on our album, Music and the Madness.

It's a very personal sister song for Catherine and I. It's all about going through the changes in life. As twin sisters, we've gone through a lot of big things in life, life experiences. And Catherine's just got married and she's about to have a baby. And we just wanted to write a song, a personal song from both perspectives,

kind of a conversation between the two of us. And yeah, we hope that a lot of siblings can relate to that kind of song. I think so. Who inspires your songwriting? Well that a lot of siblings can relate to that kind of song. I think so. Who inspires your songwriting? Well, a host of people. I mean, we're massive Taylor Swift fans. She's got a songwriting craft that is always just gets better and better and has sort of wordsmith.

She's a wordsmith. We love Brandi Carlile. She's just, there's a passion with how she sings. The emotion in her voice. The emotion, yeah. And we're very much still Chicks fans now. Now the Chicks. Now the Chicks, not the Dixie Chicks anymore.

That's a whole other programme. Before I get you over to the microphone, I read there's three types of country music having a boom in the UK, apparently since the pandemic. There are loud and proud country music fans, apparently closeted country music fans, the pandemic. There are loud and proud country music fans, apparently closeted country music fans, and then fans that don't call themselves country music fans, but they do love people like Johnny Cash.

Yes, that probably makes sense, actually. That's perfect, yeah. It's becoming less of a sort of dirty word, I think. It seems to be you don't have to wear a Stetson and cowboy boots to turn up to a country show and really enjoy it now. You can just really love the music, which is really really nice let's hear a little bit of music you're going to perform love does we have Billy Adamson on guitar over there as well who's going to accompany you so make your way over Catherine making her way and Lizzie also as we have a

little bit of country music I think keep it country I don't understand why they say country music can be two dirty words. OK, go ahead. That is so beautiful. Ward, Thomas, Lizzie and Catherine. And we also had Billy Adamson on guitar. I've just got a message in that says, oh, this music is giving me goosebumps. Beautiful country. Exactly.

That is the exact right reaction to country music. Best of luck on the tour. Best of luck with the baby. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you for coming in to Woman's Hour. Now, if you join us tomorrow, you will hear from the inventor of the selfie. Who am I talking about? The businesswoman and socialite Paris Hilton. She'll be talking about America's troubled teen boot camps and her experience that she says of being groomed as a teenager. And also nearly 30 years after she last donned her legendary jumpsuit.

Who am I talking about? Annika Rice. She's going to talk about her new series of Challenge Annika and some of those epic challenges past and present. Gosh, I loved watching that. I am ready to watch that again. Lots of you getting in touch still about childcare. Here's one that ties the strikes and childcare and parenting all together.

As a teacher for 17 years, the government changes in contributions to childcare seem to be too little too late. With three children, the financial constraints on the profession have meant many capable women were unable to progress as dedicated teaching professionals.

Thanks for listening to Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Naomi and I am so pleased to be back for series two of the Music and Meditation podcast. When I'm lying down, my eyes are closed and my hands on my heart.

That's kind of who I am. I feel like I could speak to you all day. It's always a good sign. If you're curious about meditation and how it can help you, then this is the podcast for you. Allow your body to relax. Notice your breath in this moment. Tune into my series, The Music and Meditation Podcast on BBC Sounds.

Hit subscribe now to get new episodes as soon as they're released. Imagine if you just listened to that every single day, every morning. There's no way your life couldn't change. Yeah, of course. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories

I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.