Woman's Hour - Businesswoman and entrepreneur Emma Grede, Crystal Hefner, Social media algorithms and misogyny

Episode Date: February 7, 2024

Emma Grede, a native East Londoner, now a thriving businesswoman in the US, is known for her entrepreneurial prowess and successful collaborations with the Kardashian sisters. Emma is a driving force behind iconic brands like Good American and Skims. She will soon be making her mark as a guest investor on an upcoming episode of BBC’s Dragons' Den, and she joins Emma to explain how she's learned more from her business failures, and what she looks for in a potential investment.The Welsh government has intervened in the running of the fire service in South Wales - after a toxic culture of misogyny and sexual harassment was uncovered during a review. In what's been called an unprecedented move, four Government-appointed commissioners have been brought in to restructure management. Emma speaks to Hannah Blythyn, Deputy Minister for social partnership and Member of the Senedd. Crystal Hefner, spent almost ten years of her life inside the Playboy Mansion after meeting founder and editor of Playboy magazine - Hugh Hefner - when she was 21. She became one of his infamous ‘girlfriends’ before marrying him, travelled the world and attended lavish parties. She has now written a book, Only Say Good Things: Surviving Playboy and Finding Myself, in which she provides an insight into her time spent at the mansion and her experiences of beauty standards and objectification. New research suggests social media algorithms prioritise serving harmful and misogynistic content to young people – with a fourfold increase across just five days shown to the study’s test personas. How do we keep young people safe online – particularly on social media sites? Emma discusses this issue with the report author, Dr Kaitlyn Regehr and Will Gardner from online safety organisation Childnet.Presented by Emma Barnett Producer: Louise Corley Studio Engineer: Steve Greenwood

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Today I've been thinking about fortuitous meetings because of my first guest today, who's a successful British businesswoman, Emma Greed, who made it to Forbes' list of wealthiest self-made women after partnering with the Kardashians on their clothing brands, amongst other things, which we'll get to,

driving Kim Kardashian's Skims business to the huge success it is today, as well as co-founding Khloe Kardashian's clothing company, The Good American. More of that shortly. She's now back in the UK preparing for an appearance on Dragon's Den. But it was around 2015 that the woman from East London proposed the idea for a denim company to the matriarch of arguably America's most famous modern family, Kardashian mum and manager Kris Jenner, having met her at Paris Fashion Week. What meetings have changed your life?

Who have you met? It may have been by accident. It may have been very much planned. It may have been in your personal life, your professional life, or perhaps a bit of both. I'd love, as always, if you would get in touch this morning and tell us a bit about those and what happened after that meeting

that perhaps did change something in your life beyond what you expected. 84844 is the number you need to message me on on social media at BBC Women's Hour. Email me through the Women's Hour website if you prefer that way. You know I always like to hear from you in those longer messages.

If I can, I will read them out. Or if WhatsApp is your poison, 03700 100 444. And those are the numbers you need if you hear anything on today's programme that may prompt a view or some sort of thought. Also on today's show, Crystal Hefner, aka the last wife of the Playboy Empire founder Hugh Hefner. Despite telling her before he died to only say good things to the world, she's now written a book that I think he wouldn't much like.

We'll talk about that. We're going to be speaking and I'm going to be speaking to a minister about the running of South Wales Fire Service, why that's had to be taken over by the Welsh government. It's got something to do with how some of the people working in that force have treated women. And we hear about a piece of research that shows how algorithms are programmed to serve up pure misogyny on social media again and again.

But first, Emma Greed, an East Londoner born and bred, but it is in America where perhaps she's made her name and fortune to another level. Ranking in Forbes' list of wealthiest self-made women, she is the driving force behind those clothing brands I mentioned with the Kardashians. Good American, for instance, sold, I believe, a million dollars worth of denim merchandise on opening day alone.

Also a founding partner of Skims alongside Kim Kardashian, which offers underwear, loungewear, shapewear. I've just been getting the hard sell, actually, that I won't ever need to wear wires in my bra again because I did admit having, as some of you will have remembered talking to Jodie Comer about the fact to take my bra off the minute I walk in but Emma is here in the UK making her debut as a guest investor on tomorrow's night's episode of BBC One's Dragon's Den finding those next entrepreneurs. Emma good morning. Good morning I'm here to save

you from wired bras is that what this has all come down to? Yeah, I've made it personal. I've made it personal. Let me help you. We'll get back to breasts or tits, whatever you want to call them, shortly, because I'm sure you're going to relish being back in the UK and using our lexicon rather than America. 100%. But that meeting with Kris Jenner, was it planned?

Was it fortuitous? How did it come about? You know, it's so interesting because I feel like my career is full of, like, super fortuitous moments. And. And of course, like meeting Chris was probably one of the best and sort of, you know, game changing moments of my career. But it's actually what led me up to being able to call Chris and get a meeting, I guess, in the first place. And if I think about my career, I think what I've done really well is be able to leverage moments into other things. And I often get asked by so many women, like, how did you do it? How did you get there?

And you know, I got my start like so many other people, I really worked my way up. I've had every job imaginable from a paper round to working in a deli to working in a clothes shop. And I think wherever I've been, I've had like my eyes on the prize. I've always been, you know, thinking about one step ahead, what's coming next. And so when I was, you know, in an agency environment where I was, in my view, not being paid well enough and doing all the work and seeing everybody else reap the benefits, I really just wanted to get out of that situation. And everybody says, you know, why and how could you start your own business at 24? But it was really just desperation. And that business... No one else wanted to pay me.

Well, on that, sorry, just because people who don't know your journey, to use the American way. It's been a journey. Yeah, I mean, it is. You started your own agency matching talent. Yeah. Famous people with brands. I was a very, very kind of early starter in that idea of celebrity partnerships and branding. And actually, I started my business working with fashion designers and artists and pairing them with brands.

So anyone who was coming out of St. Martin's and had a show and needed some sponsorship, I'd be the girl that you call to get your show paid for. And then I essentially took that, you know, those relationships with all of the big brands and the idea that I was pretty good at negotiating contracts and moved into celebrity branding. And that's where I really got my start. It was before influencers were called influencers, you know, they were bloggers at the time. Nobody had an agent or a manager. It was like you're negotiating with their mom or their boyfriend. And so I was, I guess, like a pioneer in influencer marketing. And I made a name for myself around that leveraged it into talent and then after building an agency from scratch and eventually selling that agency 10 years after I decided that you know I was kind of done making money for everybody else and I'd

start a brand myself and that that kind of level of naivety was that led me to meet in Chris Jenner because I knew every agent manager and publicist in Hollywood. You know, I was at the kind of forefront of that partnership landscape. And yeah, that's where it all began. And that's where I decided that I would try to do something that belonged to me and that I could take ownership in. And when you go into that sort of meeting, you have that sort of call.

What's that like with somebody like that? Well, you know, for me, if you go back to that time it wasn't it wasn't like meeting you know Brad Pitt it was like taking a meeting that I would usually take with any made uh you know major manager or talent agent or anyone else and so I don't think I've ever come from that school of thought and when you work in entertainment you know you don't really think about it like that I was trying to get a deal done I'm always trying to get a deal done and so again my eyes were on the prize. It's innovative though isn't it what you were proposing? Yeah I really think so and I think with somebody like that you're very aware that if somebody's getting a lot of opportunities and a lot of offers you've got to take something that's truly

compelling but I thought in my head that I had an amazing idea and with Good American I'd spent 10 years working in the fashion industry so I really knew my stuff that I had an amazing idea. And with Good American, I'd spent 10 years working in the fashion industry. So I really knew my stuff. And I knew the way there was a white space and a gap. And I think more than anything, what was attractive about what I presented was the idea of the brand. This thing that was about not about making more jeans or creating new white T-shirts, but actually servicing women in a different way and I think we all know as women that so much of our confidence our self-worth is inevitably tied to the way that we look right culture has kind of said that a woman and the way she looks is inextricably linked

and like it or not a lot of us feel that and I was just kind of bored of working in a fashion industry that to me had this like one beauty ideal that was like very kind of uh you know a one-way street and if you look around certainly my own family women come in all different shapes and sizes and I just thought it'd be good to start a company where women could choose regardless of their size regardless of who they are where they come from they'd be able to see themselves in that brand and they'd be able to find clothes that work for their bodies and it was no more complicated than that but I think it chimed with a lot of people and luckily a couple of those people were you know the Kardashian family what's it like to work with them as a family because that level of it's no different from

working with any other business partners you know I feel like come on I mean they're on another level of fame well yeah I wondered if anything about that had surprised you. I'm not asking for the intimate details of your business meetings. More like when you get exposed to that and you're part of that, is it different to how you thought? Because you only relatively recently moved to America yourself. Absolutely. I moved when we started Good American. And that was really interesting for me.

But you have to remember, you know, I've been working in that business for 10 years. I've been, you know, I've done some of the biggest celebrity partnerships that were on the planet. And it's not to say that I wasn't impressed. I'm impressed by any smart, intelligent, brilliant people that I meet. But, you know, I met a lot of people. And without sounding arrogant, it's like, you know, I'd worked with Angelina Jolie and Natalie Portman and Gwyneth Paltrow. And so, again, it was like another moment. And I was much more interested in thinking, like, how am I getting a business off the ground?

Were you involved with Vaginal Eggs with Gwyneth Paltrow? Absolutely not. Maybe I wish I was. We did mention her on the programme the other day because apparently she's trying to get over the idea. It's not unladylike to have rage. And apparently she's bought a plastic bat online and is hitting things to get rage out. Do you get rage out like that? I have many, many ways to get rage out.

But I've spent a long time in anger management, so I don't need a bat anymore. Have you actually? Absolutely. I'm from East London. It's like it was built in me from the beginning. So I dealt with all of that stuff a bit earlier in my life, we should say. Well, I mean, that's interesting in itself. But you also work hard, play hard with your husband.

You know, you both work in the same field. And I believe you actually met through work, which also when people are listening to how other people live their lives, they're interested how their family fits into that. How do you find that? You know, I've worked with my husband like since before he was my husband. So we had a very predefined working relationship. So it wasn't hard to figure out how we were going to work together after we

got married, because we'd been working together for years. And for full transparency, my husband and his business partner were my first investors in my first company when I was 24. And so it wasn't something we had to figure out, like, how do we do this together? And, you know, I married a Swedish man and Swedish men are, you know, they're just like, you know, the whole relationship is set on the basis of equality and my ambition, my wants, my needs being as important as his. So it wasn't like I was going to have to sit there and negotiate like, hey, I'm super ambitious and I'm going to need to get on with my stuff and our marriage will have to work around that. It was already in his mind from his own upbringing and from his own parents' marriage. And so it's been pretty easy. I think what's harder is, you know, fast forward 16 years.

Now we have four children and, you know, a lot of businesses and we live very far away from our family. And that brings an entirely new dynamic to things. My mother-in-law is Swedish, so I can vouch for the equality that comes through her three boys. It's just baked in there from the beginning. It really is. I love something that you've said about being happy all the time. Or rather not.

Or rather not. So you talk to me about thirds dividing your life into thirds because you've also said very clearly I'm not the mum that picks up the children from school I'm not that mum I'm a different kind of mum yeah you know I think that there's so much pressure on women today and I think it's unique because of how social media portrays like people like me or people that are in the public eye or just like in your feed and this idea that we're supposed to be consistently content and happy or put that idea of ourselves forward to me really really holds women back and I always talk and think about my life in this idea of thirds because my viewpoint is if you're doing something difficult

or you're chasing a dream or you're going outside the norm to push yourself you're going to be happy about a third of the time and the other third of the time you're going to be all right and the last third of the time you're going to feel pretty crappy and that's all right, because to wake up every day and feel like everything's fantastic and you're killing it and you're being the best wife and the best at work and the best mother is just not realistic. And you're setting yourself up for a fail. And so I like to be really honest that I have really difficult days, like not everything is easy. And I actually use that rule of thirds as a bit of a barometer for how I'm doing like I always think if things are too good I'm probably not trying

hard enough I'm probably missing something if things are too difficult then I've probably got the balance a little bit out of whack and I need to kind of dial it back a little bit but I do honestly think that it's important for people to understand that you're as like part of the human condition is that you're going to have like bad days and it's okay you have to learn to deal with that and I think the rule of thirds has really helped me think about that but it's not just about bad days though your point and correct me if I'm wrong was the idea that you're going for something so at that time it might also be more difficult that you have to accept that while you're in pursuit of something. One thousand percent. And it isn't to your point. It isn't just about days.

It's about how you experience things. Right. Because at the end of the day, I honestly believe that, you know, what I do isn't for everybody. And I know that there are different ways to be a mother, there are different ways to show up in the world. And not everything is for everyone. And so I never want to put like, give people that pressure that like, we're all supposed to be doing the same thing, and that we're all on the same journey. Like, it's really, it's really something that I feel, I guess, like, just very passionate about knowing that we're all on our own journey, and we should never feel like we have to be doing what the person next to us is doing. And a lot of people talk to me about that idea of, like, you know, imposter syndrome

and how I feel walking into a room and do I ever get, you know, doubt myself. Well, of course, I have all of those things. I'm a human at the end of the day. But I also know enough about myself and enough about my journey to know that I have overcome a lot of things that actually if I'd have gone back 15 years, I never thought I would be doing things the way that I'm doing it now. So I also know that life is a journey and you grow. And the point of that growth is that you're going to have to go through really tough times to actually get there. So I never look at the moments when I'm really down as something that's like keeping me down. I'm like, oh, this is just a moment where I'm expanding. And then later on, I'm going to be

able to like almost experience more and take more on. So I just don't beat myself up about it in that way. You mentioned family not being near where you are. Sadly. How do you also reconcile, which I think a lot of women, I think there's a few years difference in age between us. But I think, you know, as we change generations and as we become mothers and then look at what we had growing up and we hopefully, you know, make progress. Some ways we're not making progress. But as we do, you aren't perhaps the same type of mum as your mum will have been and there'll be differences and I wonder how do you how do you marry those up because people can feel guilt if they don't perform the way that they saw it if you see what I mean you know tell me a bit about how your mum I know she had to work very hard to make things work so you had that role

model in terms of that yeah but there will be differences about how you approach it yeah well honestly when I think about it my mum you know I'm a one of four girls born like single mum um my dad left when we were when we were really little and my mum just you know she had to go out to work to make ends meet so it's a pretty unique relationship there it's like my mum's the dad I'm the mum and we've got three kids together and so I really pulled my weight when I was younger and actually when I look at my life now and I'm pretty unashamed to say it's like, I have a lot of help. There's no way you can have four kids and three businesses. You know, my kids have their dad at home living, you know, with us together. And so I don't think it's even comparable to how I grew up. And I look at my mom and think, I have no idea how she did it. But, you know, equally, I've never had that kind of stigma in my family.

You know, I saw a lot of different ways to be a mum. Did you? And yeah, I think so. And I honestly, again, it comes down to that idea of like, what pressure do you put on yourself? And I never expected myself to be that mother that would be you know tied to her kids and you know it's like I'm not a what do you call it like a tiger mom or a helicopter parent I actually don't believe in that way of parenting so I I don't guilt trip myself because I actually think I'm living up to be the type of mother I expected myself to be um I just didn't have that type of mom growing up

and nor do I uh I I don't what is the right word I just don't put myself under that type of mum growing up and nor do I. I don't, what is the right word? I just don't put myself under that type of pressure. It's not what I want. You obviously exceed under some other types of pressure though and you do go towards that. Dragon's Den on BBC One. Let's talk about that. People get very nervous before they go in there and see people like yourself. Why did you want to do it? You know what? It's so interesting because the more successful I yourself why did you want to do it you know what it's so interesting because the more successful I've got you have to remember you know I grew up in East London in I don't even think I knew anyone who owned their own business like genuinely that was being an entrepreneur wasn't even language I understood when I was younger and so as I've become more

successful you start to realize that it's not just small at the top. It is minuscule, like absolutely minuscule. It's the same people doing the same deals with the same people that they went to school with and all exchanging money and finances. And so I started to question a lot, like, what does it mean to be an entrepreneur? Like who gets to take part? And especially because I live in America. And so there is such, there's so much conversation around race, which wasn't, you know, the same as how I grew up in England, because I grew up in East London.

So I was like surrounded by people from all different backgrounds. And when I moved to America, there is such a conversation, not only around women in business, but black women in business, the lack of funding, the lack of opportunities.

And so you find yourself as a black woman being talked to about that in a way that you weren't. Absolutely. And quite honestly, as part of an experience that I hadn't experienced because I came from the UK. And so it was interesting to me because I do Shark Tank, which is the American version of Dragon's Den. And I got in there and I thought, wow, what an opportunity to almost like unlock this curse of who gets to start their own business. Because, you know, you get people come through that are from, you know, all different walks of life. And everybody wants the opportunity to further themselves,

further their families. And you have to remember, it wasn't so long ago that I was out there having to like raise finance for my own business and so you get to a certain point where you're like wow if I could be part of somebody else's success and unlock that for them like why wouldn't you do it and then to do it on home turf right where my nan in Canvey Island can actually tune in and watch it I was like I'm in I'm all about that I've got to do it. Is she a harsh critic or is she a big supporter? Oh, she is so sweet, my grandma. I mean, there's nothing I could do wrong. I could like fall in that show, say nothing, swear and leave.

And she'd be like, darling, you are amazing. Absolutely. Best thing I've ever seen. Does she settle into the LA life? Does she come and see you? Do you know what? She actually, she hasn't been to see me because I come home so much and she's very old and that's a very long journey. But, you know, I get to Canvey as much as I possibly can.

And we do a lot of FaceTimes. Now she's learned to get on the old FaceTime. It's perfect. Have you got a catchphrase you're going into this with? You know, and for that reason, I'm out. What's yours? I'm imagining you, Debra Meaden. I do not.

I do not. It's so funny, you know, because your voice, like as soon as I got in there, I got so East London. I was like, wow, listen to me. It's like I'm right back down the market. Do you know what I mean? I loved it. No, but it's funny, you know, because, again, I grew up with those people on the TV. And so it's different when you walk into a room like that because there's such a sense of familiarity. But you just fit right in. You're like, all right, Debra.

They're lovely. I'm like, you're my love. So good to see you, David. No, no, no. It was really, really welcoming. And you're very aware that you're dealing with a bunch of people that have been, they're pros. They've been doing it for a long time. Even, you know, the man who does the wardrobe has been there for, I don't know, 18 years. Before you go, Emma, and I could talk to you for the whole hour, but we do have other people

and we've got some lovely messages coming in. And Pamela says, for instance, Emma seems to illustrate the saying that the harder you work, the luckier you get. So there you go. There's a nice thing also about chance meetings as well. I'll go through those in a moment. But just finally, for those listening

who would like to know any advice, a single piece of advice you'd give them about starting their own business or finding success or trying to find success. Is there anything you'd say? Yeah, you know what, my big piece of advice is probably start before you're ready, you know, because I think that there is this idea that you're going to land on some kind of magical thing and overnight it's going to turn into a success. And the reality is that whenever I've started a business, it's never what it was in the beginning. You've got to tinker, you have to pivot,

you have to listen to your audience and you just have to like work things out as you go along. And so that idea of just getting out the gate and going for it, and there's no, you know, there's no perfect time. It's a bit like having a baby. There isn't a perfect moment, but you'll get it, it'll happen and you'll figure it out as you're going along.

So I think to anyone who is going to start a business, you've just got to do it and know that you know it's not it's not for everybody it's not going to be easy but actually you should have a great time doing it and why not try something for yourself you sound very friendly for Dragon's Dan good luck good luck to them good luck to you thank you so much thank you very much for talking to me thank you this morning let me talk to you about some of these messages coming in Gill Gillian says, way back in the mid-70s, I was attending a day course for my company. I met a tutor there who was really enthusiastic

about Open University, the Open University. From that meeting, I started and completed an OU honours degree, did a PGCE and became a teacher for 20 years from a council house kid with no A-levels. That's quite an achievement. Another one from Sarah. I had a chance meeting on a commuter train,

the 1739 Kings Cross to Kings Lynn line. I had a chance meeting on a commuter train, the 1739 Kings Cross to Kings Lynn line. To cut a long story short for now, this led to our Friday gin club, all on a WhatsApp group, at its peak 22 members, all commuters on the same train who were drawn in by the laughter and the happiness of our original two members.

We've moved on from the train and now meeting for curries and nights out. I love these meetings. And one more just to say, my chance meeting, says Jane, walking my dog, a woman named Tonya joined the path with her dog. We got chatting as dog walkers do. And after a while, we found out we were reading the same book, The Lacuna. I formed a book club, asked her to join and fast forward to last year, going through a divorce, having to sell my house.

I found out I had leukemia and my partner ended the relationship. Gosh, sorry Jane my book club were my support team through chemo this woman drove me to every appointment every blood test every consultation did all my shopping and clean my house and every day I am grateful for that chance dog walk meeting and I can never thank her enough it's giving me it's giving me goosebumps. Thank you for that. And what a wonderful meeting on a path there with Tonya. Lovely to be able to say her name this morning. Now, I told you I would tell you about something that's going on in Wales with the fire service, or one of the fire services. The Welsh government has had to intervene in the running of a fire service in South Wales after a toxic culture of misogyny and sexual harassment was uncovered

during a review. The report heard how pictures of genitals were sent to women within the service and that inappropriate advances were made towards women. In what's been called an unprecedented move, four government-appointed commissioners have been brought in to restructure management. It found that a now-retired firefighter at the service's Cardiff Central Station had refused to speak to or acknowledge women and inappropriate comments were made about women. In one example, a man talked about a woman in a sexualised way

and said, I'd give her one. Hannah Blythyn, Deputy Minister for Social Partnership and member of the Senate, told the Senate that failing to act could have put lives at risk. She joins me now. Good morning. Good morning, Barbara Diamond. It's a problem, to say the least, with some of the examples that I've given. How's it got to this point?

So the examples you've given are abhorrent and completely unacceptable in itself. But what the review also exposed was an underlying and serious systemic failure in management as well. There wasn't support. There wasn't the processes in place. It talked about a boy's club that didn't want to deal with these issues and didn't act appropriately as an organisation, any organisation, let alone a public body charged with protecting the public did. So this review was published in the start of the new year, January the 3 third and at that point i met the south west fine rescue authority chair and urged them to and urged them and then said i would at that point to the senate i would it's not a question of what the government would do but how that form of intervention or support might take. How long has this issue been going on?

We've got firefighters in this part of Wales not talking to women, saying I'd give a warn. How long has it been going on? Do we know? So the report covered a certain period number of years and it exposed the supports as part of it. I would say it would be going on two days. It's two days too long, never mind how long it is indeed. I think one of the things when it was brought to attention and from the itv report back in last year we were clear

with the authority they needed to undertake an independent review which they did do and that review was published the start of this year what was sorry it's good that you brought out the itv report was that the first that you'd heard of it as a government it was and and you know and i i said time and time again you know pay tribute tribute to those women, those whistleblowers that came forward. They shouldn't have had to have done that. There should have been that support in place. And, you know, to them, I recognise the courage that takes. It's not easy. We know it's difficult.

But without them, this action wouldn't have been taken now. But the action I took yesterday, as you said, is unprecedented. I'm using the fullest extent of the powers that are available to me as a Welsh Government Minister to put commissions in place to take over the responsibilities of the Fire and Rescue Authority, and they're going to be tasked now with actually securing and making sure those recommendations in the review into cultural values are fully implemented,

but not just fully implemented, but in a way that's sustainable, but also more broadly to look at the governance of the Fire Authority in the future, but obviously, more broadly to look at the governance of the fire authority in the future, but obviously, too, to look at the management structures in there, because I said yesterday in the Senate chamber, you can't be part of the problem, part of the solution, and this leads to radical change. How do you cure sexism and misogyny?

How do you do that? Look, you know, I think some of the things that in that review, you know, are apparent, they're appalling. I think it's shocking. But I think for many of my colleagues, with female colleagues in that centre-sharp chamber, when we talked about it, they sounded all too familiar. It's something that we've heard with a number of organisations right across the UK, across the world. It's an endemic problem. But what I'm clear we're doing here in Wales and where we have those leaders to act within the public sector, we are going to act and take that decisive action to say there is no place for that behaviour.

There should be no place for it in society. But apart from, we know, if you don't mind, if you don't mind me, just especially with what we do here every day on Women's Hour, you know, we know it's wrong. We hear a lot of condemnation of such comments, but it's very hard to get rid of a culture

and to change a culture i wonder if if you actually how long do you think this is going to take and what do you think they're going to be able to do yes so the recommendations in the route set out a time frame of 18 months so that's what we're anticipating that they worked that time frame but we're clear that you know they're in place until we actually see that meaningful change because like you said um emma you know this can't be a tick pox exercise it has has to be meaningful change. It's not just in terms of tackling those attitudes and those behaviours, but making sure the support and the process is in place and the workforce is confident that they have that support there as well. And in terms of, so you've got this 18-month plan, there's also potentially going to be this issue elsewhere, isn't there, in Wales? Have you got any concerns about that? So we're doing some work right across the public sector

to see what further action needs to be taken. But in respect of fire and rescue authorities, we've worked very closely with them on the back of the HMI report that came out in the back of London Fire Brigade. And one thing we found that the other authorities, as you would expect, and as an organisation should do responded much more robustly in a more appropriate way to some allegations of these behaviours but on the back of the review I have actually written formally to the other authority

chairs not just to ask them to reflect on the view to provide concrete assurance of actually how they would act on it now we all need to consider those responses fully as long with other other and actually then consider what further action may need to consider those responses fully as long as other and actually then consider what further action may need to be taken and other fire rescue authorities if that's necessary. Do you think there's something about fire services? You know an independent review last year found that Dorset and Wiltshire fire service has an underlying boys club culture of misogyny and sexism. You mentioned there about the London Fire Brigade and a review in 2022 finding that it was institutionally racist and misogynist.

Have you got a view on that, Minister? I think there's something perhaps about what you'd say were traditionally hierarchical, uniformed organisations that have been predominantly male over the years. And I think, you know, I'm taking this action today, but I'm under no illusions that it is a long road ahead and there's a challenge because just on the back of me taking that action, some of the messages I've had directed at me, either that personal abuse or one person got in touch and said, oh, you know, he longs for the good old days when firefighters were all men. The problem is that we've got firefighters that are women.

So there's a long road ahead to change those attitudes. But I think I'm confident with the commissions we have in place. I want to see that turned around in a meaningful way in South Wales Fire and Rescue Authority, which we then can spread that in other organisations. There's a statement here just to share, which is from the South Wales Fire Service.

We did ask for a statement. They referred us to a statement already issued to the BBC, which says South Wales Fire and Rescue Service said it welcomed the scrutiny and direction that will be provided by four appointed commissioners. In a statement it said it wanted to reassure the public and all staff that we would never compromise on their safety and this was supported in the report.

To date the service has continued to take forward the draft action plan in response to the recommendations within the Independent Culture Review Report. Last week we held five staff sessions to consult on the plan and another three sessions planned for this week to fulfil our promise of engaging with staff on how to take recommendations forward. Thank you though, you're listening to Hannah Blythyn, Deputy Minister for

Social Partnership and member of the Senedd about taking that particular fire service under Welsh Government control there, certainly for a period of 18 months. Let me tell you about who's just walked into the studio, though. Crystal Hefner, who spent almost 10 years of her life inside the Playboy Mansion after meeting the founder and editor of Playboy magazine, Hugh Hefner, when she was 21.

She became one of his infamous girlfriends, travelled the world, attended lavish partners. But she then married Hugh Hefner, becoming his final wife in 2012. And he was 86. She was 26. A colossal age gap that was made much of by the media at the time. But Crystal is now, as she puts it, finding her own voice in a book called Only Say Good Things, Surviving Playboy and Finding Myself. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you for being here. Already a New York Times bestseller, I believe. Congratulations. Yes, thank you so much. Why did you want to do it? Why did you want to write this?

I think I have controlled the narrative for so long and it was time to tell the truth and tell my side of the story. I'd been quiet for so long and I just thought it was time. I mean, you do say quite early on in the book, I've only ever told the shiny, glamorous parts of my story, the parts people wanted to hear, the good pieces, partly because I didn't want to see myself as a victim and partly because I didn't want to upset his family, but mostly because I'd made a promise to, as you call him, Hef.

Why did you feel now was the time to break that promise? And I should say, only say good things is a quote from him. Is that right? Yes he put me on the board of his foundation toward the end of his life and he told me that he wanted me to only say good things about him after he passed away and and I said I would and I kept that promise but the promise was killing me as I was going through therapy and trying to unpack what happened there I just I just thought it was time to tell the truth and I think the truth will set you free. And it's healed me. Why did you first go to the mansion? This was in 2008. I went to a Halloween party. And I was intrigued. I had seen Playboy magazines,

and I saw the women and thought they were the most beautiful women in the world. And they were powerful. And I was intrigued. And can you just go? I mean, how does that come about? I don't know the rules, but you just rock up there or how does that come about? You can't just rock up. You have to submit your photo and be approved. Okay. And you were? Yeah. I didn't think I would be picked, but I submitted my photo and I was approved and yeah, I couldn't believe it. But what was your plan for that then? When you were going in, were you hoping to be featured in the magazine?

Were you hoping to meet him? What was the idea, do you think, at that time, if you can remember? I wasn't sure. I think the whole thing was intriguing to me. I thought it was powerful and a place that, you know, the media talked about as such an incredible place. And I just wanted to check it out. And that was the thing. It came across as incredibly glamorous.

That whole being a Playboy bunny, a lot of people thought, many women included, that it was something aspirational, something very glamorous. Coming from, tell us a bit about your background. Was that somebody, something, a role that you looked up to? Yeah, I think so. I think my childhood think you know my childhood was hard I lost my father at a young age my mom and I had no money and you know when you have no money you just think everyone else is better than you and and I I just was small and I think going

to the mansion I'm like oh wow this this is a place I could maybe feel like I finally belong. And was it in any way? At first I thought it was just beautiful and incredible but over time it started um yeah eating away at me. You became a playboy bunny. Yes. What did that mean? What did that entail? I did a photo shoot for the magazine. I became a centerfold and I made $25,000, which at that time I thought was so incredible. Life changing. Yeah, yeah. 21. And then I suppose you've got, I don't know if you would see it like this, a choice whether to carry on within the mansion or go elsewhere and do other work. But actually, I believe you became one of Hugh Hefner's girlfriends. Yes, yes, I did. And everyone idolized him, and I just thought, wow, to get close to him,

I just have to like the same things he likes and kind of be his mirror. And at the time, I just felt like, oh, I can do this, and this is where I belong. But really, I was losing myself the entire time. You talk in the book very honestly about all aspects of this. And one part, which is that you were involved in bringing other young women to Hugh Hefner's bedroom to have sex with him, choosing who he would find attractive. What do you feel about that now? How do you process that? When I lived at the mansion, there were always so many parties and, you know, women would just be throwing themselves at him constantly

and he wanted multiple people in the bedroom. So a lot of people were just happy to come up and see what that was like, I guess. And how was it for you? It was hard. The whole sex aspect of the relationship was hard and difficult. And I thought, okay, this man can't really love me if he wants to have like multiple people in the bedroom and it started falling apart when I realized that.

So were you a number of girlfriends at the same time? I was there and then there were twins and they were only 19. And how old were you at this point? 21. 21. You are very graphic about how this works. There's no issue with that. But just to say, there is a lot of sex. And yet at the same time, you talk about women and, you know, a large part of Playboy is pleasure.

The idea of pleasure. But none of the women would orgasm. Hugh Hefner insisted on using baby oil instead of lubricant. Women getting vaginal infections. You know, there's a lot of reality that is not sexy at all about this. Yeah, it wasn't a place that was very sexy. And Playboy's supposed to be a place of freedom and expression. And it felt anything but that. Yeah, that's what I think so, so stark about it. And you also talk about the fact that you sometimes resorted to anal sex when it was your turn.

And you don't think Hugh Hefner could tell the difference. Yeah, I really don't think he could. I mean, for you at that time when you were going through that experience, what were you feeling? I was just feeling like I was in this place that I thought was something, but it ended up being something completely different. But at that time, the media was still praising him as an American icon and the man. And it was, I was very conflicted. Did you still like him, enjoy his company, want to be around him? Looking back, you know, we have terms now that we didn't really have then, or I didn't have then, like boundaries and narcissism, misogyny.

So, you know, looking back, I'm like, oh, he was just very narcissistic. Like he was very, just very narcissistic and just all about him. I mean, you also talk about curfews and some of the controls that were there, because one of the questions I'm sure you thought about when writing this, and you've given some thought to since talking about this book in your account, is why didn't you leave? Yeah, absolutely. And I feel that a lot of people ask me that question, and it's a valid question. And, you know, I think it's a lot of reasons why people don't leave emotionally abusive relationships or financially abusive relationships, it's, you know, you get stuck. And especially when the media in the world and all the staff and everyone that was there is like praising this man. You're like, okay, there must be just something wrong with me then. You know,

if everyone else sees him as a good person. And so you just quieten your inner voice and just go along with it. Because you did leave for a bit. Is that right? Before you were married? I did. Yeah. And what was that like not being in the mansion and then going back? I had heard that he wasn't happy when I was away. And I started a lingerie business and it failed. And I just thought, okay, maybe this is where I'm meant to be. Maybe this is my fate. And I went back. But you went back. Were you missing it? No, I don't. I don't think I was missing it. It was more of more of like, oh, Hef needs me. And I'm like the best equipped for the situation. Because you then married and you get married. There are all these headlines around that and the age

difference. How did you feel about that decision? Do you feel it was a decision? He didn't ask me to marry him. He handed me a ring and said that he hoped it fit. Yeah, and there were cameras and everything all around. And so I kind of had to say yes or else I was leaving the next day, you know, I wasn't ready for that. And so it started. Yeah, we got married. I suppose some of it must have still been exciting at that point to want to be a part of it or is that not right when you look back at how you felt there? I felt trapped. I do remember after the engagement, I felt trapped. I'm very introverted. I remember them starting

to plan a wedding with over 300 people getting RSVPs from Gene Simmons and Paris Hilton. I'm just like, wow, this is happening, it feels like, without me. And it was strange and overwhelming. You mentioned quite a lot in this conversation, which I find very striking, about how the media perceived the Playboy Mansion and the Playboy parties and the Playboy brand. And we should remember people like Paris Hilton,

as well as many men, were going to that party, those parties, which did give it an air of that this is okay, this is glamorous. And your book paints a really different picture to that. Yeah, yeah. I still, I wonder to this day, like, why, why the media put like Hef on such a pedestal and, you know, he had seven girlfriends and narrowed it down to three and talked about thinning the herd. Like the media is hearing him speak like this and they say nothing or they praise him. It's very strange, but things like that are still happening in the media. It's very odd. And did you make friends there? Did you have any sort of sisterhood with any of

the other women? Female friendship was nearly impossible. Of the thousand women, thousands and thousands of women I met, I may be friends with three. Okay. So it wasn't a place where you could make those bonds? It was a place where we were pitted against each other to the point where I want to be friends with the other girls next door, Holly, Bridget, Kendra. But, you know, I think if I would have met them in a restaurant or somewhere else, we would be friends. But because of that situation, I don't think they like me much. But hopefully one day. How old are you now? 37.

Okay. And how does your life look? I mean, you still have the name, Crystal Hefner. I don't know if you're going to always keep that. Do you want to? I definitely am dropping it. You are? Yes. What is life like now, you know, as someone who's been through that experience and had, you know, some good, maybe you would say in terms of change? I don't know if you would, but someone who's been through that experience and had, you know, some good, maybe you would say in terms of change. I don't know if you would, but lots of bad.

Yeah, yeah. I think now is very different for me. I have better boundaries. I love myself more. I listen to my intuition more. It's my compass. I just follow the things that I love and it makes me happy. And now I'm finally free. I wonder what people will make of how, I mean, I feel what you've done a bit in your book as well, is you've pulled back the curtain on the reality of him as a man, you know, the reality of sex, not even being pleasurable for him, nevermind anyone else, it seemed around him. Yeah, yeah. It's definitely how it was. And I just think he was kind of a sad, lost little boy that created this whole fantasy and to try and fill a void that he was never able to fill, sadly.

If you, I mean, you've written this book in hope, would you also feel that it gets to other girls who were like you when you were coming into this idea that perhaps going to somewhere like the Playboy Mansion was a good idea? Yeah, I wrote the book to help women to tell the truth. And I've had so many, like an outpouring of women just saying thank you. And I've helped them with their abusive relationship and with other things. And I'm grateful for that.

There's a message here when I said that we were having you on today that came in saying, reading the articles about Crystal, it seems to me she made solid financial decisions about marrying Hugh and working at the Playboy Mansion. However distasteful it may be to other people, she made the right decisions for her own future. That's from a listener called Michelle who's listening in a place called Nottingham. What do you make of that message and what she's saying in that? I appreciate her message. I feel, you know, when I was at the mansion,

I did use that as an opportunity to try and make my own money and I saved my playmate money and I did a bunch of other things and social media. And, yeah, I did work toward being financially free so that I don't have to ever be in that kind of situation again. That's such an imbalance of power. And in terms of future relationships and how you feel about that, you know, a lot of people when they look back on things and they feel that they were very damaged and it was very difficult, they then struggle with intimacy or some of those issues. How do you feel now about potentially finding another person to share your life with? Dating was hard at first. I ended up in

relationships with people that were manipulating and controlling and they were like struggling actors and musicians. So I'm like, okay, it's the same thing, but now I'm paying the bills. This is terrible. So after some more therapy, now I'm finally in a relationship and dating somebody that's, you know, it's very wonderful relationship, healthy, normal, no red flags. Okay, well, that's good. I mean, you know, people always ask me to make sure I check how things are today, not how the story finishes, but where it's up to. So there you go. Crystal, is there anything you wanted to add?

No, I think that's everything. Thank you so much. Crystal Hefner there. The book's called Only Say Good Things, Surviving Playboy and Finding Myself. Thank you very much for coming on the programme this morning. Many messages coming in about chance meetings and also other things that people have been thinking about listening to. One here about my interview with Emma Greed at the beginning of the programme, the entrepreneur making her debut on The Dragon in the Dragon's Den, the BBC's Dragon Den later today.

What an inspiration, Emma, is. I'm going to play that interview to both of my children. One can't wait to start earning money, 16 years old, and the other 24 is very able but beset by appalling low confidence. Also hearing a bit about our conversation to do with meetings, Louise says, A last-minute holiday to the Gambia several years ago for sunsea and relaxation.

My future changed from that moment. A spontaneous joining up with a school charity where we witnessed firsthand the poverty and deep family connections changed my whole outlook on my life. Since then, I have not bought anything that wasn't necessary. Since 2017, I only shop in charity shops, joined a food waste group and feed the community. This is now a way of life. It changed my life. And about the fire service in Wales that we were hearing about the government needing to take

one of the branches of it, the South Wales Fire Service in hand. I love listening to women's that I read this message. To be honest, it's the only radio show I listen to. This person's got excellent taste. And hearing today's show

talking about sexism in the fire service, it struck me how my workplace is very toxic. However, I work in the care sector and i'm the only man in the office i've heard women regularly saying they'd give so and so on and even stalking builders on security cameras it's interesting getting this perspective on things not sure i can bring this up as i think i'll just be made fun of helen who says no name on that helen says misogyny in workplace sadly this is a widespread problem and if like i have you question poor behaviour made to feel like a nuisance, or as I was told by someone to put it back in its box regarding a compliment. Another, I think and believe we need a massive recruitment campaign for all of our institutions where we take mid-career women and men from other industries with the right values and behaviours to replace the current middle and senior leaders across those institutions. Well, let's talk about what we see and what it makes us feel, because new research suggests social media algorithms prioritise serving harmful and misogynistic content to young people. We were asking where some of these messages come from

in workplaces, with a fourfold increase across just five days in a very specific experiment. Dr. Caitlin Regar is an associate professor at University College London and Will Gardner from online safety organisation ChildNet. I'll come to you in a moment, Will. But Caitlin, this is a really interesting study. Tell us what you found. So this study was about what we call the gamification of harmful content on social media. So that is to say, as young people scroll and microdose on anything harmful, which could be self-harm or it could be the alt-right, as they consume it, to them it feels like entertainment.

So to them it feels soft and it feels humorous. So they don't realize that what they're consuming is actually very toxic. And what we found is that this content doesn't stay on social media, but rather through this continuous microdosing by way of scrolling, the ideologies become normalized for them. And that's when we see the behavior move off screens and into the schoolyard. But just on the algorithm, you set this up so you could look at how it was fed through. And there was more and more. So tell us a bit about that. Yeah. So what we did was we had interviews with young people. We then use the interviews to create archetypes. So we didn't actually put kids in front of these screens, we had archetypes. And what we saw was over, as you rightly said, over a five day period, our archetypes that were based on real young people saw an increase of fourfold in the

misogynistic content. Well, if people are listening to this, they have children, I mean, I realised actually yesterday was safer internet day but um we are hearing from a slew of parents about just don't give your your child a social media connected phone an internet connected phone give them a brick phone is that your advice so i think there's a there's a there's a every family is different there's a moment to try and get uh kids the devices that that are appropriate to them. And, you know, I think it's sensible to think about the range of technology that phones have at the age of the child. A lot of I think it was safe for Internet Day yesterday.

And we had thousands of schools across the country who were actively trying to promote digital literacy and online safety. And I'm hoping that, you know, any parent listening will kind of pick up on that and think, well, I can latch on to that and maybe start that conversation at home. But one aspect of what we were looking at in our work yesterday was trying to develop young people's understanding of the environment, the tech environment that they're using, so they can understand why they're seeing the content that they are seeing. And I think the study that Caitlin was just talking about is really interesting.

And I think we need to kind of look to build that into the work that we do. But I think it's right to raise people's understanding of the environments, to build them strategies so they can manage that. Yes, it's just, I suppose, with a lot of people thinking about Brianna Jai and the recent tragic case of the murdered teenager here and her mother calling on the government to stop children under 16 having access to social media, that was really driving my question.

And I know that context is important and that literacy is important, Will, but when you heard that, do you agree with that, working at an online safety organisation? I understand exactly why she said that. And I have a lot of sympathy with that view. I think there's some practical issues there. There are phones available which can provide the type of things

which Breena Jai's mother was talking about. And that is there to kind of implement a policy which brings in a kind of a uniform level. I think we have to think about whether that will work, but also think about what the benefits of the technology has for children and young people, even between the ages of 13 and 16 as well, to kind of try and really nurture and encourage environments which are more appropriate for children and young people. Caitlin? Yeah. So absolutely, I completely agree with that. And one of the recommendations that we

have coming out of the report is what we call a healthy digital diet or digital nutrition. So just like food, some parts of social media are really good, like socializing, education, creativity, and you want a balanced diet of those things. But just like processed food, it is through the processing of these platforms by way of algorithms that can render them unhealthy or harmful. So what we're trying to do, my team at the moment, is really strip back digital literacy and make it really easy to understand. If we think about the consumption of digital content and that consumption means that some things are not good for us, but some things are, we can start having a much more critical approach

to what we are consuming online in our digital diet. But having spoken to those who've been involved with the, you know, the Online Safety Act, as it is now, they're done with the responsibility actually being on the consumer, largely, that, you know, your test here with the algorithm shows that you could be fighting a bit of a losing battle here. Yes. So absolutely. I feel like I've said a lot here and you're taking a big breath. Yes. So one, part of this report is calling to hold social media companies responsible. Absolutely. And these one-off bans, like banning one hashtag or banning a topic, doesn't work because it is actually under the hood.

It's the nuts and bolts. It's the algorithm that is feeding this content to young people. And topics will change and hashtags will change. And we need to be able to. But parents can't wait. They can't wait for, you know, the bill and now act to go through. It's taken five years as it is. And then the regulator has to get in place. I agree with you. I feel like this is like cigarettes decades ago, that hopefully there will be enough persuasive research that the public will start petitioning and policymakers will start to prioritize young young people's wellbeing over profit.

I agree with you, that's not happening yet, and that's a problem. Will, what do you want to say to that? So, well, the Honour Safety Act is passed and it's coming, but it's not here yet, you're right. And there is, you know, great optimism that it will, you know, provide that level of accountability for service providers to be able to show that they are protecting children in the services they are providing and protecting them from harmful content so that that is that is there is coming but let's keep an eye as ofcom is still busy doing

consultations and setting up exactly yeah and we haven't seen what his teeth look like if you like but at the same time it's it's coming and it's not here yet so the educational element is is critical and what caitlin was saying you know we did a study seven years ago where we had 10 of children of teenagers saying they had been sent sexual threats online and 29 had witnessed people their age making such sexual threats and the the challenge is to challenge that. That is not normal behaviour. Or just, you know, sorry to say, but going back to Brianna Jai's mother, you know, maybe there's a tipping point where you just don't give children phones. But that does need to be paired with education, because at some point, these young people are going to enter the workforce, and they

will have to navigate the digital space. This is their reality. So what we don't want to do is just ban phones, but not back that up with sufficient education. And who should do that education? Parents? No, this needs to be embedded throughout the curriculum, a holistic approach. Well, that's a whole other thing. Have you seen how regularly there are curriculum updates? Not many.

It's a very difficult thing, what you're proposing as well. And in the meantime meantime it probably will fall to parents and you know teachers would welcome I'm sure support it's not about teachers it's about how these systems work. You're right and parents themselves don't understand how these algorithms work or their own addictions which makes parenting around it near impossible. There's an interesting message here from Jackie listening saying many younger mothers spend all their time on their phones and like being able to quieten small children by giving them their own phones even if it's just to play games but unfortunately setting up the habits I think many parents will not support the new idea as it will

be inconvenient for them that may be uh bristling to people listening but that may also be an inconvenient truth and there are other there are also other things that we can do to set up so within schools. So I've been working with Education Scotland, and we've rolled this out now across half of the schools in Scotland. And that's a peer-to-peer mentorship approach. So that's when you get older kids mentoring younger kids around these issues, around these toxicities online. And that's been incredibly effective because a lot of times when young people are driven towards harmful content, be it self-harm or online misogyny, it is a way of them articulating

a fear of a loss of control. And it is a way of them seeking positive mentorship. That's one thing that we heard in the study time and time again, young boys saying, I'm told what I can't be, but not what I can. So we can also look to relatively cost effective measures, where you actually implement youth leadership in schools to try and change a culture from within. Fascinating. Thank you very much to both of you for your inputs there. Thank you to you for many of your messages today. Really interesting to hear them as I'm going through. And lots of responses to different elements, not least entrepreneurship, through to how we get to the culture we've got and how we perhaps change it as well. Really fascinating. I'll be back with you tomorrow from 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time.

Join us again for the next one. The Post Office Horizon scandal has shocked Britain. Post Office IT scandal, which has had so much publicity, hasn't it, over the last... This is a scandal of historic proportions. I've been following the story for more than a decade, hearing about the suffering of sub-postmasters like Joe Hamilton and Alan Bates. It was just horrendous. The whole thing was horrendous. I was told you can't afford to take on post office. And about their extraordinary fight for justice.

What was motivating you? Well, it was wrong what they did. Listen to the true story firsthand from the people who lived it in The Great Post Office Trial from BBC Radio 4 with me, Nick Wallace. Subscribe on BBC Sounds. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.