Woman's Hour - Businesswoman Sara Davies, Holiday without kids, Restless Leg Syndrome

Episode Date: March 11, 2025

Do you have a business idea that you would realise, if only you had the time? Sara Davies firmly believes we’re all capable of creating a successful business from scratch, in just six minutes a week. The Dragon’s Den star set up Crafter's Companion while she was still a student and has since built it into a multi-million pound business. Now she’s sharing what she’s learned in her new book – The Six Minute Entrepreneur: 52 short lessons for long-term business success.Frankie Bridge has hit out at ‘double standards’ for women after she received a backlash online for going on holiday without her children. The Loose Women presenter was called ‘the worst wife and mother’ in comments on her social media post, after she took a break with her friend following health struggles. Her husband and mother were looking after her two sons. She joins Nuala, along with parenting coach Camilla McGill. Women prescribed drugs for movement disorders such as Restless Leg Syndrome are not being warned by doctors about serious side effects which have turned them into sex and gambling addicts – according to a BBC investigation. These women say these drugs were so powerful that they changed their behaviour entirely and ruined their lives. BBC News Investigations correspondent Noel Titheradge joins Nuala, along with a woman we are calling Lucy who developed three serious addictions while on the drugs, and professor of neuropsychiatry at Cambridge University, Valerie Voon.Hilary Brown was ABC News’s first female foreign correspondent. She was one of the first women to be posted to war zones at a time where many women were just entering the workplace for the first time. Nuala talks to her about her life and career. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petruzzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme. Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks it will take to feel truly alive.

If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds Music radio podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. It is indeed hello and welcome to the programme. Well, entrepreneurs and those nursing a dream of entrepreneurship. Take note, we have Sarah Davies with us. The businesswoman known to many from Dragon's Den

will bring us some of her six minute lessons that are compiled in her new book. Also coming up, Frankie Bridge, the Saturday star and loose women presenter. Frankie posted on Instagram that she was called the worst wife and mother for going on holiday with a friend without her kids or her husband. Here's a smattering of those comments. Don't your kids miss you while you're being away? Who's looking after the kids? How does Wayne, her husband, feel about you going away without him? And so on. Frankie went on to say that her husband never received such messages when he posted about being away in Ibiza or snowboarding.

So what's going on? How do you understand the flood of messages giving Frankie a hard time? Have you ever hesitated when it came to taking a few days away from your little ones? Why did you hesitate? Have you come up against any judgement on whether you should from others or indeed from yourself? You can text the programme the number is 84844 on social media we're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note the number is 03700 100 444. Also today we're going to hear about drugs for movement disorders including Oral S restless leg syndrome that has led some patients to seek out risky sexual

behavior which had a devastating impact on their lives. We're going to hear from one of the women who was severely affected by those drugs. That's coming up. Plus, Hillary Brown. She was the first female foreign correspondent for the American television network ABC News. Hillary tells her story of covering the Vietnam War and she also features in a new documentary about that war that changed America. Hillary has had the most fascinating life and career, excuse me, and she also speaks about the advantages of sometimes being the only woman in the room. Well, that is something that my first guest knows all about. It is Sarah Davies. She's been on our screens for the past six years on the TV show Dragons Den.

Taking a step back, I hear, as you've probably seen across headlines as well. But Sarah was the youngest female dragon to enter the den at the age of 35. And it was her credentials as an entrepreneur that landed her that job in the first place. You might know she set up Crafters Companion while she was still a student. She's built it into a multi-million pound business and she is learning. She is sharing, should I say, what she has learned so far in her new book. It's called The Six Minute Entrepreneur. She's in the studio with me now, as you might have heard.

Welcome to Women's Hour or welcome back. Welcome back. Do you know I love coming and chatting with you guys on Women's Hour. I just know it's one of those shores that as women people all over the country listen to and it's just a little bit of time out isn't it? Well let's take at least six minutes here if not a lot more. This idea of the six minute entrepreneur, how does it work? Why did you pick that number? Okay so here's the thing we're all busy right? We all, I think every woman especially, we have the aspirations to do a bit of self-development, but people just don't have hours and hours

and hours to read all of these self-help books or business books or whatever it is. And I've got a lot of stories. I mean, I'm really lucky that I've had a fantastic 20-year career. I've had things that I've learned from my time on Strictly, things that I've learned from my time in the den, in business, and if I was to sit down with you and tell you all of them, well we'd be for the next week, let's put it that way. And what my thinking was is if I can take all the learnings that I've had in my career and break them down into each lesson just being six minutes. We've all got six minutes a week that we can put aside for ourselves. So I've got lessons on imposter syndrome and dealing with mam guilt and maybe it's about how we can be more present in our lives or

maybe it is setting up and running a business or lessons you can learn from business but in six minutes you can sit down read a chapter there'll be some self-reflection pieces for you to think on and then I'll give you a little bit of homework for the rest of the week. There is homework, I want to underline this. So this, we're talking about a year maybe, we have the 52 short lessons if you take six weeks, six minutes for each week and then by the end of the year you should have some of Sarah's lessons. The homework, I was quite interested to see what was done there as well, but let me get into one. People will know you from

Dragonstone as I mentioned, they'll also know you from Strictly. I was quite interested to see what was done there as well. But let me get into one. People will know you from Dragons Den, as I mentioned. They'll also know you from Strictly. I was fascinated by this. What you learned about being present or being in the moment from Strictly. Do you know, so I mean, it's three years since I did Strictly. And at the time I was doing Strictly, I was running a multi-million pound, multinational business, 250 staff on two time zones across the world. I had an investment portfolio from three years of Dragon's Den, I had two young kids, well

still got two young kids they're 8 and 11 now and I'm trying to juggle all of that and then all of a sudden I'm wanting to fit in 50-60 hours of dancing a week and travel up and down to London for the studios and someone said well how on earth do you fit that in and the way that I did it is I was able to give Aliyash, my dance partner, six hours a day. And I said, we'll start at six o'clock in the morning and go from six till twelve. Six hours a day? God I love him. And Aliash didn't know there was two six o'clock in the day.

So that came as quite the shock to the system. So he used to meet me at the dance studio at six o'clock every morning. And I remember him saying to me a couple of weeks in I have never known anybody for the capacity with the capacity of learning that you've got he said your brain you learn steps so much faster than other people he's worked with and I said I don't actually think that's what it is I think we're learning those steps at half past six on a morning I said and you know this that old age old saying of your brain you know to every hour before nine o'clock in the morning is worth two hours after six o'clock on a night my brain was just

firing on all cylinders at six o'clock in the morning I'd be brilliant however there is a big however okay what I used to do is I used to get up on my way driving to the studio I would voice note all of my stuff you know I'd ring voice note my em she's awake oh don't turn your phone on silent until you get in. And I'd send all these voice notes off so that I could get out of my head what everybody needed to do that day. And at 8 o'clock in the morning we used to have a bit of a break I used to go and brew us up, cup of coffee, 15 minutes break and in that time I would start checking the WhatsApp replies and all the messages I'd got from everybody

and then quarter past eight we'd start dancing again. Then I remember Aliash saying to me a few weeks in he, you're brilliant up until we have that break. And at eight o'clock he said, something changes in you and I just don't know what it is, but you're just not as brilliant. And I had to reflect on what it is and what I realised was, at 20 past eight, I'm back in his arms, I'm doing the dance,

I'm trying to learn the steps, but my head is half in the business because I'm now thinking about the replies and I'm thinking, oh, the meeting I've got to go to at one o'clock, we're going to have to review this purchase order, we're going to have to look at the shipment and when it's coming in. So I was there, I was present in body but not a hundred percent present in mind and I realized that by not giving him all of me, I was brilliant from six to eight on the morning. He said, you're

just, you're not the same person from eight o'clock. And so what you think it is, there's just a different part of your brain that has been switched on to a different part of your life. And it's not possible because I don't believe in multitasking. No, I'm right with you on that one. I learned that the hard way. It's it's all right to think, well, I'm actually physically present in that room. But if I'm not mentally present in that room, he hasn't got 100 percent of me.

And I could only give him six hours a day of me to start with when other contestants were doing 12, 14 hours of dancing a day. I thought the least I can do is give him all of me for all six hours. And so did you stop doing the checking? I had to take my phone off me. I took my phone off me and that was it. What happened to your feet? Well, look at that, I was top of the leaderboard the next week. There's the difference. And I think that is it. And what I've learned is when you are somewhere you've made the effort to be there be present

whether it's you take your kids to the park on a Saturday morning don't be the mom that's pushing the kids on the swing with one hand while you're reading your emails in the other be a hundred percent there present with the kids but probably less time with them if you still have to answer those emails. The way I see it is is I'd rather give everybody a little bit less of my time but them get a hundred percent of me in that moment. I feel like my kids benefit from that, my work benefits from that. Wherever I am, you get a hundred percent of me. I've only met you probably about 20 minutes ago, but I can feel your energy and how much you get

done. And of course, I know this from your history and your career as well. But do you ever worry that perhaps you're fuelling this idea that women have to be super women? Do you know, we can't be. People look at me and they say, how do you have everything? And I say, well, well, I try to have everything, but I have this unbelievable support network. And also I accept that having everything,

I can only do I can only ever achieve 80 percent of what I want to. You know, I can only ever achieve 80% of what I want to. I can't work as many hours as what I want. I think I'm a great mam, but I'm not with them kids as much as maybe these other women are with their kids. But I just think, do you know what? I make the time that I have with the kids count. I make that the really special time and we have a great time. So yes, I'm away more. I travel away for work, I'm away from home overnight. But when I am with the kids we make sure it's really special. When I am in work I make every moment of that count predominantly by being present. Yeah so kind of that's switching from one role perhaps to another in quite short order. Really short time. Is what I'm hearing. Let's get into

also some of the other lessons. I love that one about being present. You also talk about how to avoid being underestimated. Do you think that's something that particularly affects women? Without a shadow of a doubt. I always found, especially when I was first starting out in business, I would quite often be the only woman in the room or I'd be the only young person in the room or I'd be the only person who sounds like this, which in a lot of rooms, people therefore assume because I sound like this, I'm clearly not as bright or as smart as what the rest of the people in the room are.

And I was always underestimated. And I found I use that as my superpower. I use that to my advantage. I love nothing more than people underestimating me and then me being able to blow them expectations out of the water. And I always say, you know, people say, how do you deal with that bias? I said it's other people's problem, it's not your problem. It only becomes your problem if you let it be. If you let that bias affect

how you are performing or what you are doing, don't let that cloud your own judgement. I knew I'd sit in a room and I knew I was better than them men in the corner, doesn't matter what they think, I know that I am. You know I know that I do my job better. But how do you get that confidence? Do you know I think it's that inner belief and also I'm a big proponent of you are a product of the people you surround yourself with. Okay so a network? So if you surround, network or naysayers, you know if you surround yourself with other people who

will fuel that feeling that you're not as good as what you are, you will get there. I always remember when I first had the kids, I made a lot of other friends and a lot of them were women who decided that they were going to give up their careers to look after their kids, you know, and they would want to be state-home moms, certainly for a few years. And I remember the time I spent with them, I felt wholly inadequate. I felt like I wasn't as good of a mother as they were because they'd I felt like I wasn't as good of a mother as they were because they'd chosen to put their kids first And I'd been selfish because I was trying to juggle having a career and have kids and as I got a little bit older I realized the mums at the school gate the mums that I made friends with I made friends with the other ones who were career Mums who were going through the same juggle that I was who were also brilliant mums

But trying to have a career as well and the more time I spent around those women, I didn't start to think that I wasn't good enough and I wasn't a good enough mom. I became a product of the people I surround myself with and we would champion each other and build each other up. And I think it's all about that mindset. It's very interesting. Later on, we have Hilary Brown, first foreign correspondent for ABC News, who talked about the advantages of being the only woman in the room, which makes me think we're also going to be speaking to Frankie Bridge. You talk about mum guilt

in your book as well, which I think has been laden upon Frankie by others, which we're going to be talking about a little bit later. But you don't have time or room for mum guilt. There is no place in this world. I call it mum guilt up north. Well, if I was to do in my Dublin, I'd also call it mum guilt. There is no place in this world for mam guilt. What I've realized is and the only person who suffers is you. Actually I know my kids have a fantastic life. I wasn't home last night. I was down here ready to come into the studio really early but didn't matter. My mam picked the kids up, took them to karate class. They had a wonderful time. I was on FaceTime with them at eight o'clock. They're living their best life, doing the

homework with the dad and whatnot. And I just think, you know, if I'd have been there, would the kids have had a better evening? Not at all. So what's the point in me feeling guilty about that and not being there? Because all that would have done is made my evening worse. Actually, I had a great night. I was in bed at our past eight. You know, it was unheard of, which means that when I get home tonight I can give them kids a hundred percent of me and be a brilliant mam. So don't do not let mamgild creep into your life. It doesn't serve any purpose for anyone. Let me turn to plodders. Never write off a plodder you say. Yes, it's an interesting one. So as you've sensed from being in a room with me for 20

minutes, I'm quite high energy. I do everything at pace and I'm excited about everything that I do. But I employ 120 people today and not everybody's like me and God forbid, I don't think we could cope with more than one of me in the business. I don't think anybody could cope with that. And it's interesting because plodders, there's a whole chapter in the book on them and what it made me realize assessing the different personality types of the people that we have is those people are still brilliant people and have an awful lot they can contribute in a business. They just approach the world in a really different way to me. And in business what you need is variety.

Like I said, it's like me and my husband, we ran the business together for a lot of years. We are chalk and cheese. I used to say we're not on different pages in a book. We're in different libraries, me and Simon. But it's that variety that makes the world work. So talking about that diversity, also really interesting, you talk about the difference of a manager and a leader and that there are people that can be both. But I'd never thought about it that deeply before. So the leader has the vision and the manager is able to make it happen.

That'd be a fair way of putting it. I think that's a brilliant way to put it. So I am I'm not a brilliant manager. I'm not I'm not into the detail. I'm not organized. My husband was a brilliant manager. He used to manage people really, really well. I'm the leader.

People want to follow me. I have a vision, I know where we want to go, and it's exciting. And people can get on board and want to come with me. In terms of managing their day-to-day, are they all doing the right thing, pulling in the right direction? That's the area I know I fall down on.

And I think any great entrepreneur is brilliant at identifying where their skills are and surrounding themselves with people who fill the gaps that they have. So I have a great team of managers around me who are brilliant. So Claire, my number two at work, she's a fantastic manager. She will do all of the stuff that I'm not great at. But I'm the visionary. She's not the visionary person in the business. She doesn't need to be. We've got me for that. And I think it's always about having that balance. And understanding what you are. What do you think are the biggest barriers for women

entrepreneurs? I do think our biggest, I don't know if it's our biggest problem, I think we hold ourselves back. Why? We overthink things, we are constantly in pursuit of absolute perfection. The amount of men I meet. Is it the pursuit of perfection? I think it is quite often. I meet a lot of men and they'll say to me, oh I've had an idea and I'm going to go for it. You'll meet a woman and she'll say, I've had an idea. I don't know if I'm good enough. I'm going to have to research it. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that. They are in so far in pursuit of perfection they won't get there. And I always say, you're 80% there, get going, get going. The rest will follow as it is. And I think we're our own biggest critics. You remind me of something that I think

will be really interesting to our listeners as well. Protect your ideas. Yes, protect your ideas. Don't be going giving them away. You know, I'm really big on intellectual property. Any of you have watched me in the den. I'm always about what's your intellectual property, how have you protected it or whatever.

Because as soon as somebody else takes your idea, there'll be plenty of other people out there who don't have ideas of their own their whole business model is to find other people's ideas and capitalize on those don't be one of them victims. Don't be sharing them no nilly and you mentioned your accent you're still based in the Northeast how important is that for you? Oh it's everything it's absolutely everything to me my passion and I remember when I first started in business and our business took off and at one point we were bigger in America than we were in the UK and someone said to me

why do you travel all the time to America? Why would you not just move there and your business would become ten times bigger quickly? I said but that's not what's important in my life. You know I am proper Northeast girl through and through. I still live 15 minutes from where I grew up. All of my family are there. I'm a big family person, spend a lot of time with my family. So for me, I wanna use my influence to create opportunities for other people in the Northeast.

So whether that's, you know, as I built my company, I hired people from all over the world and relocated them to the Northeast of England and had them build teams and teach people skills in our area to create prosperity in our area. I don't want to take that opportunity and that prosperity somewhere else, whether it's in this country or anywhere else in the world. I want to do it in the North East and we need more people like me championing the area that they're from and creating opportunities in their areas when they've got the power to do that.

Sarah, thank you so much for coming in. Thank you. The 6 Minute Entrepreneur by Sarah Davis is out on Thursday. Really interesting read, really thought provoking, whether you are a business person or not. Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you. And a woman who was nodding along with you, we're going to speak to next. Now imagine you've just got home from a well-earned holiday with friends, you're relaxed and excited to be reunited with your family only to be branded the worst wife and mother, people posting this online, for

taking that trip. That's what happened to my next guest Frankie Bridge. The Saturday star and Loose Women presenter received backlash on social media after taking a break with her friend and fellow singer Flora East following health struggles. Her husband and mother, I should say, were looking after her two sons. Frankie took to social media to hit out at what she called the double standards for women after those parenting comments. I have Frankie joining me now. We also have a parenting coach, Camilla McGill, with us. You're both very welcome, Frankie. Good to have you with us. I saw you were nodding along with Zara there when I talked about mum guilt or mam guilt, as we were calling it. Yeah, I mean, I'd love to be like her and just have no mum guilt.

But unfortunately, it's fully, fully there. I'm throwing it out to our listeners as well. 84844, I can see a lot of people getting in touch already. I gave a synopsis of what happened to you, Frankie. Tell us a little bit more about the comments, particularly those that stung, that kind of was the catalyst for you to speak out about it. You know what, I think, so I've been really busy, like everyone else, we're all busy, we're all tired. And it was my birthday coming up in January, and my husband and I were discussing what I wanted to do for my birthday. And I, it was my birthday coming up in January, and my husband and I were discussing

what I wanted to do for my birthday. And I was like, you know what, all I want to do is I just want to feel the warmth of my skin. And I just want to sit with someone in silence and do nothing, you know, and he was like, well, you should, you should go away. And I was, and I could come up with a million reasons why I shouldn't do it. You know, the kids, my youngest is like, really has like attachment anxiety. So I didn't want to leave him leaving Wayne to do all the all the school drop offs and pickups. And you know, the list goes on work everything. And he was just like, No, you need to go and do

it. Just go away with your friend and relax. So I did just that. And I don't often look at comments. And actually it was my friend that had had a look at them. And it just made me realize how big the disparity is between men and women in general, to be honest, but also just the fact that everyone had so much to say about me going

away without my husband and my kids. You know, I was selfish, I was the worst parent, how does my husband feel about me going away on my own? How could I leave my kids? And they didn't hurt, but it just annoyed me that we're still in 2025, making women feel bad for putting themselves first. You know, I saw in your post that you said a quote, you reluctantly took the holiday squeezed in at a time that will cause minimal damage to the boys schedule and thinking even the language you're using there suggests that you have to justify the trip. Yeah.

Well, I also think I had to justify it to myself. Yeah, it's not just about everyone else. And I think... And tell me a little bit more about that, though. Why do you feel you need to justify it to yourself? Because when you do have children, I think we've always been taught that the minute you have children, your whole life has to be dedicated to them. And obviously it is, my day-to-day life is dedicated to them.

But I think what people forget and which I didn't realise before I had kids is that the minute you have children, you're parenting all the time, whether you're at home or whether you're away from them. You know, I'll still be getting phone calls from the school. I'm still in charge of their schedule, what they need in their bags that day, they've got to get a birthday present for Tommy's birthday at the weekend and this that the other. And I think as a working parent I do often feel guilty that I'm not at home every single day for every single moment already. So to then go and take that holiday felt like a really selfish act and it shouldn't. And I want to come back to the double standard with your husband as well in just a moment, but I'm going to cross over to Camilla for a moment. You're listening to this.

I'm going to read some of the comments that are coming in as well. Your first thoughts? It does. I completely agree. It makes me sad that why should we have to justify it? I actually think it's important for the children to have some time away with us. I really understand what Frankie says, one of her children's got, you know, attachment to anxiety, but I'm just a big believer in helping them, supporting the children to become a bit more resilient. And also, you know, they tend to sort of think we're there to meet

their every need. Children are designed to be egotistical so that, you know, we care for them. But it's a really important role model. I mean, Frankie's got two boys, but I think it's a really important role model for girls and for boys to see that their mother needs to have a break. And I just, it saddens me. This need to justify it. That, you know, well I've been working really hard and I've just, you know, I've had so much on. It doesn't need to be that way. We just need to have a break sometimes. Let me read some of the comments coming in, Frankie and Camilla. Sally, in 1998, my sister accused me of abandoning my son

when I went to China for a week, abandoning my ex husband was and really is a good dad. And I had no hesitation in taking the opportunity I was given to think this is still the case today is unbelievably disappointing. Women should support each other. Well, I don't know. Was it women or men commenting, Frankie? There's a lot a lot of women. OK, let us continue.

Despite having listened to Woman's Hour, there's another listener. Despite having listened to Woman's Hour for over 15 years, I've never contacted you before. I live with my two teenage daughters and husband. I visit my elderly dad once a month for 72 hours. Before I set off, I make sure everything is sorted for my family. Meals planned, sporting transport schedules, uniforms ready. And there hadn't been one occasion

that my father hasn't asked me to thank my husband for letting me come to visit. It drives me insane. Literally nothing alters for my husband when I'm not there. But it's a whole different ballgame when he goes away. That is quite the list of responsibilities that that woman has gone in touch about that she is planning before she even takes 72 hours away and mentions the double standard, which it is for her husband. First, how did Wayne feel when he saw the comments coming in?

He called them a name that I shall not repeat. I actually asked him, I said to him, Wayne, just as out of interest, when you went away with the boys or when you went skiing, did anyone send you any comments or did anyone ask you how I felt about you being away? And he was like, not one person. Yeah, Camilla. Absolutely and you know I don't want to men bash a lot of my clients really do share responsibility and a lot of my clients partners husbands encourage their wives to go away and take a break but there is a sort of typical thing that men step away and go skiing with the boys and women go around endlessly making lists and, you know, feeling guilty and preparing. And guilt's a really interesting thing. I mean, I loved hearing Sarah say that she doesn't

feel guilt. I think I know, as I've got four children, I know that I many occasions did feel guilt for various different things or working for whatever it was. But I think it is possible to have that feeling and still do take the action. Would you say just push through the guilt? Just push through the guilt. Push through the guilt whatever it is that you're feeling guilty about. Here's another listener that might agree with that, Camilla. Emily. I go away every year with girlfriends to Majorca for five blissful nights.

I call it my mental health break. It is rejuvenating and so important to me, and I'm sure it recharges my parenting batteries. Johnny. My parents started taking holidays without me and my two siblings when I was about 15. Even as a child, it was clear they came back refreshed, reenergized and refocused. Our lives as kids only ever benefited from parents who invested in themselves as a couple and as individuals.

I've done this myself as an adult and will encourage my own adult children to balance work, parenting and self care in this way when they become parents. Thanks for talking about this. It matters. Frankie, what about the response that you've got? OK, we heard about some of the worst mother, wife and mother ever. But you've started a conversation. Yeah. And you know what? The response has been amazing.

I think I've had nothing but positive comments this time around. I think sometimes when you call it out, people see it for what it is. We all kind of realise that we've been swept up in this old narrative that women stay in one lane and men stay in the other. And that's just not the case anymore. You know, my husband is retired. He's at home. He does as many school runs, probably cooks more dinners than me. You know, he's at home and he's present. And it's actually been really nice. And a lot of my friends have said to me, you know, he's at home and he's present. And it's actually been really nice. And a lot of my friends have said to me, if you stood in a school playground, and said to all the mums in that playground, do you want to go on holiday or even it

doesn't have to be a holiday, do you want to go away for the night or out for the day, you know, we often feel guilty about doing anything for ourselves, they'd all put their hands up and say, Yes, please. You know, so I think it's just more being me saying it and admitting it. Let's other people do the same. Yeah, really interesting. Do you think going back to Camilla and her advice,

do you think you could just push through that guilt perhaps in the future? Because I can hear that you are still that you are questioning yourself or justifying it, I don't know, take a week next time. Yeah, I don't know if I could. I mean, I think definitely I did do it, you know, I did push through it. And I do on a daily basis, like anyone with kids, you know, I do work and there are sometimes I bend over backwards to get there for school drop-off, pick-up, football matches, you know, you name it. But if I do miss anything, I do feel really guilty and I do push through that every day and I think that's something that I definitely need to work on and probably lots of other mums. Camilla, what advice would you give to Frankie with that?

Yeah, I mean, I think with any emotion that we have, the worst thing we can do is kind of squash it down. But I think I would just say, acknowledge it, do your best. I mean, one thing that I would say if you are, if people are thinking about going on holiday, and this is a tip that I give my clients a lot, is don't spring it on the children at the last minute. I think one of the things about the Guild is that we don't want to tell them and upset them too far ahead of time and then have to live with the consequences. Actually the opposite is true. Tell them far in advance, have them be more emotionally prepared, do little things like you know leave a little surprise

note on their pillow for them to get the day, the night that you've gone. I wouldn't say contact them endlessly, but just, you know, prepare them emotionally that I am going away, you will feel sad, you may miss me, and you're gonna cope. And that's this whole idea about helping our children to become more resilient, which benefits them and benefits us. And dads are much better at organising themselves to go. And by that, by organising themselves, I mean leaving the guilt to the side. They are much better. I always remember hearing Sheryl Sandberg say, she's the author of Lean In. So she said that there

was a time when she realized on the way to school that her child didn't have a green shirt and it was like green shirt day and she got to the office absolutely wracked with guilt and thinking I've let my child down, he's going to go in, he's going to be the only one that hasn't got the green shirt. She called her husband and she said oh my god you know I can't get him one, I feel terrible and he just, her husband just laughed and said, Oh, he'll get over it. There we go. On that note, parenting coach Camilla McGill and Frankie Bridge, who

took online, you can see her post on there on Instagram as well. Thanks so much to both of you for coming on and starting this conversation as well on Woman's Hour. Now, women prescribe drugs for movement disorders such as restless leg syndrome are not being warned by doctors about serious side effects which have turned them into sex and gambling addicts. This is according to a BBC investigation. 25 sufferers of ORLS, this is a condition marked by an irresistible urge to move. It says dopamine agonist drugs were so powerful that they changed their behaviour entirely and ruined their lives. Now the medicine's regulator says not all patients experience

these type of side effects and that it's important for health care professionals to explain the possible risk to patients. Well we have the BBC's Nell Titheridge who has been investigating this story in our studio now. Welcome, Nell. So tell us a little bit more about what you have found out. Well, I've spoken to dozens of women who are sufferers of restless leg syndrome. Now, that's a condition, as you say, marked by an irresistible urge to move, but it's also accompanied often by chronic sleeplessness and what many of the women describe as an awful, crawling sensation under the skin. Women are twice as likely to suffer from this as men, with many first experiencing it during

pregnancy. More than two dozen have told me that they've been prescribed medication for their restless legs, which then led to compulsive behaviours such as gambling and sex addiction that ruin their lives. It's long been known that a family of drugs, these are called dopamine agonists, can cause serious impulsive behaviours and these are listed in medical leaflets. But the women have told us they weren't warned about these by the doctors and they changed their behaviours so dramatically they drew no connection with their medication.

We've heard of multiple cases of sufferers with no experience or taste for betting, then developing serious gambling addictions that left them with debts of over £100,000 and destroyed their relationships. Other women say they began binge eating, putting on huge amounts of weight, while others compulsively shopped. Many women say they had multiple such behaviours at the same time, but they attributed them to other things going on in their lives because the drugs appear to be working in addressing their underlying condition. How do the drugs work? Well, dopamine agonists work by mimicking the behaviour of dopamine. That's the natural chemical in our brains which helps

regulate things like movement and mood. Dopamine is also known as the happy hormone because it's activated when something is pleasurable or we feel rewarded. But agonist drugs can over-stimulate these feelings of reward and under-stimulate the appreciation of risks or consequences. That leads to impulsive behaviour according to academics we've spoken to. Cases of serious side effects have also been reported in other countries, particularly in the relation to the use of the drugs for Parkinson's disease and other disorder. In France, there was a high profile case where a court awarded damages to a father of two

who complained that the drug Ropinolol had given him compulsive homosexual urges. In the US, these drugs are considered to be so powerful that it's recommended they should only be used for short-term treatment, things like end-of-life care. That's according to the American Academy of Sleep Medicine. And what do the drug companies say? Well, the drug companies say that the drugs are broadly safe, or they say that they are safe and they've been extensively trialed and that these side effects are detailed in medicine leaflets.

But we've learned that the British company behind one of the drugs, GlaxoSmithKline, knew about a drug, knew about a link between its own drug, ropinolol, and what it described as deviant sexual behaviour. It knew about that 20 years ago, but it's not specifically listed in medical warnings. Now we've seen a GSK report that examines two cases it discovered where repinnerol was prescribed to sufferers of Parkinson's disease. In one, a 63-year-old man had sexually assaulted a seven-year-old girl. The GSK documents say that the man's libido was reported to have increased

significantly from the start of his treatment with their drug but then returned to normal after his dose was reduced. In the second case a 45 year old man carried out uncontrolled acts of exhibitionism according to the GSK report. Now in response to our story the GSK says the report was shared with global health authorities and has informed updates in medical leaflets which now list altered or increased sexual interest and behaviour of significant concern as acknowledged side effects. The company added that the drug was safe and had been used for millions of successful treatments. The UK's medicines regulator, that's the MHRA, said that while a specific reference to deviant sexual behaviour, that's GSK's term, is not included in warnings, such impulses vary and so

a general warning about harmful activities is included in medical leaflets. The regulator also said that impulse control disorders were reported at high doses in particular and were generally reversible when doses were reduced. Which is also quite shocking, both the behaviours and also just how impactful that drug can be if it is stopped. Thank you Noel, you're going to stay with us. I do want to bring in a woman we are calling Lucy, it's not her real name, who's had experience of these drugs.

Lucy, you're very welcome. Maybe you could tell me a little bit in what changed in your behaviour. So I was on and off the drug. I took Aripripazol and it's a dopamine agonist, a partial one. And when I was in Australia, I was on the drug and I started going on Tinder. And so it was like risky behavior, meeting up with guys when I was there. But when I came back, I ended up like dating three guys at the same time. And did you realize at that time, oh my goodness, my behavior has changed completely. What's happening? I didn't like, with this I didn't, but I also had a gambling problem. And that was so starkly different because I bought a house when I was 26 and I'd saved and I saved and

I saved and suddenly I was spending thousands and thousands of pounds a hundred grand in total. With the sexual side I just thought that it was part of my condition like I've got schizophrenia and I thought that my behavior was changing because I'd had this traumatic event at work which has caused me to get ill. And I really thought that, like I was also compulsive eating, like I went from a size eight to a size 22. And I just thought that it was because of my mental health problems and I didn't know why I was

doing it. And I was on this drug for 10 years. Oh wow, yeah. And did it get progressively worse? Yeah, so to start with I was just taking a tablet and I would have the odds encounter or I started gambling like walking down the street and I'd spend my wages every week on gambling. But when I went onto an injection because I'd had a relapse, I was spending up to like, on one occasion, I spent 25 grand in one night gambling and I stopped like I went on Gamstop, my mum had my card and I like tried everything to stop gambling and

I just couldn't stop and I didn't why, because it was so unrelated to my actual behavior. Previous. You didn't have that compulsion previously. And. You went to some pretty low moments, obviously, with these things that you're telling us, Lucy, your life turned around to detrimentally because you were on these drugs as you describe it.

When did you make the connection and decide it could be the medication? So I thought I was going to take my life because I was gambling so much and I thought actually I don't want to. So I told a family member, and they did some research. They found the National Gambling Association. And they said, like, my family member was explaining my mental health problems

and everything, and they were like, oh, is she on this drug and our apripazole and I she my family member came back to me and I was like are you just written down on a piece of paper and like my whole life turned around at that moment because it wasn't just me it wasn't just like I wasn't just deviant, as the manufacturers say. I was actually compelled to do this because of the response to a drug. Because you had basically serious impulsive behaviours that came from this drug. I'm so sorry you went through all that and I'm glad you're feeling better now.

But it must be very hard to look back on that time as well, I'm sure Lucy. Yeah, like I lost a decade of my life. Like I lost, I felt like I lost my life because I became, I had schizophrenia. But it was trying to rebuild it. But I could have probably rebuilt it far quicker. Like within two years, like now I'm looking at buying a house. Like there is, it's changed, flipped so quickly to the positive. Like at the time I didn't see any future because I didn't, I couldn't like, I couldn't save any money. So I didn't have any money to do anything.

Now I went to the theatre last week and I've got money for treats and stuff. It's so horrible to think. And the sexual part, which is why you started this interview. Like there were incidents there and that scarred me and I had vaginismus, which is like the tightening, tightening where I couldn't have sex because I was so traumatized and like that's never going to go away from me. But like if I don't speak out, then nobody will know about these drugs. Like it's not being talked about because we have mental health conditions. Sorry, Lucy, finish your sentence. Well, because like I have a mental health condition, like we're already like only 10% of people work who have schizophrenia. And I'm one of those 10%.

But I went through seven jobs on this drug. And that begins to give the picture of the terrible time that you had Lucy. Thank you very much for sharing it and for speaking out. I want to bring in Valerie Voon who's a professor of neuropsychiatry at Cambridge University and acts as an expert witness in legal cases against drug companies. Good to have you with us. Lucy has obviously given us her story and the dramatic changes that she saw. What would you look for, Valerie?

Is it better warnings or outlining specifically the risks that might be involved in behaviors? So I think there's been kind of long-standing warnings from the FDA for these drugs. So within the last 10, 15 years about these impulse control behaviors, because there have been quite a few studies, it's been mostly associated with Parkinson's disease because the doses are higher with Parkinson's disease, but indeed they are actually also associated with restless leg syndrome, even though the doses are lower. Aeropiprasol is a little bit different

in that it's a partial agonist rather than a full agonist, meaning that it's not fully binding, only partially binding, but there is good evidence also from FDA adverse event reports and also meta-analyses that these are also associated with these impulse control behaviors more likely than not. So I do think that there is already warnings, but I think getting the word out there more in terms of physicians, particularly for RLS and also for these drugs, having them specifically

discuss and then follow these behaviors, which I think many, some of them do, I'm not sure if all of them do. We talked about the side effects there and the impulsive behaviors are thought to affect between 6 and 17 percent of RLS patients, restless leg syndromes, prescribe them according to the health guidance body NICE. But people say a common side effect as we see according to the NHS is any medicine that's considered to have the side effects in 1% of people who take it. Why do you think it's not called a common side effect Valerie, if in fact the numbers are that high?

I think in Parkinson's disease, it's probably considered because, again, the doses are higher and it's reported at about 17%. It is probably considered a relatively more common side effect. I think there's a lot fewer studies in RLS, is what I would say. So it's hard to be able to... You know, the studies in Parkinson's are large scale, whereas those in RLS is what I would say. So it's hard to be able to...you know, the studies in Parkinson's are large scale, whereas those in RLS are much smaller numbers, and so it's harder for us to be very clear about the frequency, and we think it's somewhere between 7%, perhaps 11% for all of the impulse control behaviors. But there's no good comparisons with people without the drugs. In the context of aeropropanazole, it's mostly been looking at databases and also the adverse

event reports from the FDA. So there's a clear signal, but again, the frequency we don't actually know about. We just know odds ratios. And also not been spoken about as much as you mentioned Valerie that's Valerie Voon who is a professor of neuropsychiatry at Cambridge University and also acts as an expert witness in legal cases against drug companies. I also want to thank the woman we are calling Lucy who went through her experiences which were just horrifying being on those drugs and also Noel Tithridge, who is from the BBC, who's been investigating this story.

And actually, there's a full write up of his story online. I think it'll be interesting, Noel, to see in the coming days the reaction that you get, because I know it's just up in the past few hours to other people who are perhaps on these drugs, too. And I do want to say, if you would like help with any of the issues that have been raised in this story by Lucy for example you can find sources of support on the BBC's action line. I want to turn to Hillary Brown next. She was ABC News's first female foreign correspondent. She was one of the first women to be posted to war zones at a time

where many women were just entering the workplace for the first time. And she was one of the last journalists to be lifted by helicopter from the roof of the American embassy in Saigon in nineteen seventy five. That was during the communist takeover of South Vietnam. You might recall seeing her war report in the film The Deer Hunter in what Hillary calls her 15 seconds of fame. Why don't we listen to a clip of her in action. This is on the final day of the Vietnam War. Communist forces are closing in on Saigon.

The soldiers behind me are firing at Viet Cong units who are 500 yards away, no more. This is the closest the fighting has ever come. 500 yards away, no more. This is the closest the fighting has ever come. Hillary Brown, ABC News. I got to speak to Hillary Brown from her home in Canada and I asked her what it was like being a woman at that time in a hugely male-dominated field. There is no disadvantage to being one of the only women and sometimes the only one in a sea of males usually type-a males I think it helped me and in my work

You would be noted simply because you were a female you catch the eye of the you know The current one was very important who might be able to get you, you know onto a plane or some kind of access It was really quite wonderful. But as a foreign correspondent, you reported from all over the world. I loved reading about some of the places that you were posted. But you rose to prominence during the Vietnam War, and this was one of the first wars to be televised. What was that like? So I went in April 1975, and that was when the North Vietnamese Army

had launched its final offensive. The South Vietnamese Army, no longer supported by American combat troops, simply disintegrated and cut and ran. At that time I was based in London. I was ABC's first female foreign correspondent. I'd been on the job for about 18 months, so I was sort of on a learning curve. And I was agitating desperately to be assigned there. Then finally in April I said, all right, well, we'll let Brown go.

So I went in in early April, 1975. You know, the North Vietnamese Army was practically at the gates of Saigon. We see you during those days in this new documentary, Vietnam, The War That Changed America. You were one of the last journalists to be lifted by helicopter from the roof off the American embassy in Saigon in 1975. What do you remember of that day? The heat was just extraordinary. It was about 102, I think. It was the panic. The South Vietnamese who were petrified that they would be butchered by the North Vietnamese

army and they were just desperate, frightened to get out. But also because the evacuation of the Americans still left in Saigon and their South Vietnamese employees had been postponed by the then U.S. ambassador. The final plan, the last resort plan was the evacuation by helicopter from the roof of the embassy. So it was a complete panic. There were an estimated 10,000 South Vietnamese outside the walls of that embassy, these great 10-foot walls. And the walls were manned by a very small contingent of US Marines. Their job was to pull up the Americans, Europeans, some Canadians, we lifted up by helicopter, and to push away the hysterical South Vietnamese,

to hit them with their rifle butts or kick them. That was the scene. I saw a man throw his infant child over the wall, just in a desperate bid to get some member of his family out of the country, out of the city. When I finally went over the wall, which was about you know towards the end of the day, the first thing I see when I get on the other side is an embassy employee throwing stacks of US dollars into a burning oil drum. I mean my instinct was, what are you doing? You're burning money! And she said, what do you want us to do? Leave it to the Viet Cong?

And she hurled another wad of US dollars into the drum. I mean this was the embassy contingency fund of $2 million and they had, that was the only way they could dispose of it. But what an image. It is a particular job I guess that a foreign correspondent has. You said in your memoir, which is called War Tourist, that foreign correspondents are like war tourists in flak jackets. They document human misery and then move on. I'm wondering whether you still feel like that and whether you got any reaction from

other foreign correspondents to that comment. Yes, I do feel that. That was always my sense that foreign correspondents are like war tourists in flak jackets. They document human misery and they move on. That's their job. But they do carry this emotional baggage of guilt about leaving people in their misery and compassion for their suffering. So what comes out of that is the desire to atone in some way. And so what a lot of foreign correspondents do is they look for ways, some way, any way to help some person, any people out of the nightmare that they're living. In Vietnam, my enormous guilt was

leaving back my translator with his family in Saigon on that terrible last day, April 29th. He came to my hotel as I was waiting to be evacuated with his whole family, begging me to take the family with him. And I didn't see how I could possibly help him. And I told him I couldn't get him away. And I just never forgot that look of total despair in his eyes as he melted away into the crowd. I felt guilty about that for years. But 15 years later, I found a way to atone and my way was as a Canadian, sponsoring a family of boat people who I found in a refugee camp in Hong Kong living in packing crates. And I managed to sponsor those people

and I did a documentary about it. Exactly a year after that documentary was broadcast, that family arrived at Toronto International Airport. My family, I helped them and I felt much better then. Let us talk also about the private, I suppose, where it intersects with the professional. You met your husband, also a journalist, John Bierman, a correspondent for the BBC when you were both reporting from Pakistan in 1971 with the Indo-Pak War. I'm thinking that must have been such an intense environment to meet somebody in. Well, yes, it was.

And especially as at that time, I was still just a kind of wet behind the ears TV news reporter on Parliament Hill, desperate to be a foreign correspondent. So I had actually just enterprise myself on my own money because I knew that it was probably going to be war. You went on your own... Let's stop there for a second. I went on my own. And I had one contact in Pakistan, an AP reporter, and he said,

ah, well, I'll take you to the five o'clock fall. As you know, those are the press briefings. I'm the only female in the room. I just remember this kind of moving phalanx of males, type A males moving towards me. But John Bierman was one step ahead of them. And he was all over me like a rash. And he hired me the next day to be his pigeon. Now, you may not remember what a pigeon was in those days, back in the Stone Age of TV news. The pigeon was the human being who carried the news film out of the war zone

and into a neighboring country where it could then be shipped to London and broadcast to the outside world. So I was working for this incredibly attractive man. It was extraordinary because of course we fell in love almost immediately. But you were married for 36 years. Yes we were. And we started our life together in Central Asia.

You know, it was an incredibly sort of exotic way to start a life together because we roamed all around Central Asia together. My understanding is as your career took off and you were posted in various places that John followed where you were, which perhaps was unusual at the time? It was very unusual. I mean, it was very difficult to keep two careers in parallel. I mean, I never expected that I would get this extraordinary chance with ABC News.

They made me their first female foreign correspondent in 1973. I mean, it was absolutely the dream job. And the only reason I got it was that I was female. The impact and the pressure of women's liberation, of the women's liberation groups, the suits in New York, suddenly felt you got to get a woman in a prominent position somewhere. Ah, we need a dame in London to be a foreign correspondent, get somebody. And I just happened to be in the right place at the right time and I wasn't really qualified. I think the only reason I actually was able to do it was because of John, because he was a complete professional.

He helped me enormously, enormously. And anytime I went off on a story, he wouldn't say, oh, why are you going? You're leaving me. No, it was do this, see this person, think of that, call me, send me a script, blah, blah, blah, blah, like that. He was my mentor as well as, you know, my husband and my lover and the father of my child. That is the invincible Hilary Brown.

Amazing story, including how she got her break so she wasn't qualified, but then, of course, became more than qualified. but then, of course, became more than qualified. She does appear in Apple TV's new documentary series, Vietnam, The War That Changed America, that is available to stream. In my last 30 seconds, I want to go back to some of your messages that came in. The only reason any mothers who take breaks away from their daily routine receive negative comments is jealousy. Not everyone can afford to have breaks. Not all husbands or partners are as competent a parent. If you're fortunate enough, if you're in a

fortunate enough position to take a break, grab it with both hands and enjoy life. There's absolutely no need to feel guilty about it. One more, Mary. My husband and I regularly took separate holidays when the kids were small. The difference was people flocked to help him. And on that note, I will see you tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Helena Bonham Carter, and for BBC Radio 4, I'm back with a brand new series of history's secret heroes.

And he tells her that she will be sent to France as a secret agent. She will work undercover. And if she is caught, she's going to be shot. Join me for more stories of unsung heroes, acts of resistance, deception, and courage from World War II. Subscribe to History's Secret Heroes on BBC Sounds.

Hello, I'm Robin Ince. And I'm Brian Cox, and we would like to tell you about the new series of The Infinite Monkey Cage. We're going to have a planet on Jupiter versus Saturn! It's very well done that because in the script it does say wrestling voice. After all of that it's going to kind of chill out a bit and talk about ice. And also in this series we're discussing history of music, recording with Brian Eno, and looking at nature's shapes.

So, listen wherever you get your podcasts.