Woman's Hour - Caitríona Balfe, Child maintenance, Medieval medicine, Kids and happiness

Episode Date: April 1, 2025

Irish actor Caitríona Balfe was nominated for a Bafta for her performance in Kenneth Branagh’s film Belfast and is also known to many as Claire in time travel drama series Outlander. Caitríona joins Nuala McGovern in the studio to discuss her latest role in new film The Amateur, playing a Russian spy alongside Rami Malek. There has been a "significant increase" in the number of female swimmers having indecent images taken of them in changing rooms whilst competing in the elite level of the sport, according to a leaked report. The Times newspaper has seen a report by the sport’s governing body Swim England which states that pictures have been taken using camera phones over or under cubicles. Nuala is joined by BBC Sport correspondent Laura Scott and Mhairi Maclennan, CEO of Kyniska Advocacy, which supports women and victims of abuse in sport. The latest figures on child maintenance show there is currently £690m unpaid, leaving thousands of children without the financial support they are entitled to. Critics argue that the Child Maintenance Service (CMS) is failing to use its legal powers, while the Government says enforcement measures are improving. As an inquiry by the cross-party House of Lords Public Services committee calls for evidence, we look at how unpaid child maintenance can be used as a form of economic abuse. Nuala hears from Sam Smethers, Chair of the charity Surviving Economic Abuse, and a survivor whose ex-partner used the system to control her.A new exhibition called Curious Cures at Cambridge University Library explores medicine in the medieval era. Dozens of unique medical manuscripts, recipes, cures and guides to healthy living from the 14th and 15th centuries are on display. To discuss women’s role in medieval medicine, Nuala is joined by the exhibition’s curator and medieval manuscripts specialist, Dr James Freeman.Grammy award-winning singer Chappell Roan has been causing a stir with some comments she made about motherhood on the podcast Call Her Daddy. The 27-year-old singer said her friends her age who have kids "are in hell", adding "I actually don't know anyone who's happy and has children at this age." So is motherhood worth it - or is Chappell Roan right? Anna Whitehouse, also known as Mother Pukka, is a campaigner and mum of five. She joins us to discuss. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Sarah Jane Griffiths

Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. The actor Katrina Balfe will be here in the Woman's Hour studio. She had perhaps a late night last night. She had the UK premiere for her new film, The Amateur. So I'm looking forward to speaking to her. Also, as an inquiry into child maintenance gets underway, we're going to hear from a woman who says her ex-partner used child

maintenance as a form of coercive control. And stargazing, hairs, wombs, applesauce, just some of the wellness treatments employed by medieval women. We're going to hear more about the curious cures that are on at an exhibition at Cambridge University that's coming up. And also, I want your thoughts on this. All of my friends who have kids are in hell. I don't know anyone. I actually don't know anyone who's like happy and has children at this age. I have like, like a one year old, like three year old, four and under, five and under.

I don't I literally have not met anyone who's happy, anyone who has like light in their eyes, anyone who has slept. Hell, says the pop singer, Chapel Rhone, she was speaking on the Call Her Daddy podcast, saying there, in essence, that she doesn't know any happy parents and it immediately caused a rift in opinion. There are those who are saying she's telling it like it is. Another saying she's painting way too gloomy a picture of parenthood. Now whether you have children or not, I'd like to hear from you. Does the potential day-to-day drudgery put you off parenthood?

Or would you love the possibility of chubby grubby little fingers and maybe mayhem at meal times? Is the joys of parenthood given enough air time? Or perhaps you think it's glorified way too much? Wherever you stand we want to hear from you. You can text the program the number is 84844 on social media we're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note the number is 03700 100 444. We'll be talking about all of that a little later in the program. But first I want to turn to this story there's been a significant increase is the way it was quoted in the number of female swimmers

having unwanted and indecent images taken off them in changing rooms while competing in the elite level of the sport. It's according to the Times newspaper, which has seen a leaked report from the governing body Swim England. Now, according to the report, the pictures have been taken using camera phones over or under cubicles. It quotes anonymous testimonies from women who are worried the images of them could be posted online and from others who felt there was no point in speaking up as they thought nothing would be done. Well as I mentioned it's from a leaked report but here to tell us what we know so far is the BBC Sports correspondent Laura Scott. Welcome back to the program Laura. Tell me what else we know. Good morning well this has come from an extraordinary safeguarding

meeting that was held by Swim England back in February and it involved regional and county welfare officers and essentially what was shared during this meeting was some statistics on complaints that had been raised with Swim England about recordings of female swimmers in changing rooms. Now what they said was that in 2024 there had been 43 female swimmers recorded and that in January 2025 in that month alone there had been seven and that was all in a competition environment. Now they were warning in this meeting that if that trend were to continue then potentially in 2025 there could be 84 female swimmers being recorded and as you

mentioned this is allegedly using camera phones either above or below cubicles in changing rooms. And I'm thinking as well just as I'm speaking to you Laura of course this must be ones that the swimmers saw. Right. I mean, to be able to report it, to know that there is this particular incidence taking place. It only mentions women, this particular report, in the elite level of the sport. So those competing. But I suppose people might be wondering

whether it also applies to regular swimmers in regular pools. Yeah I'm sure people reading that report which first appeared in the Times this morning will have been wondering exactly that. But the reason why this is specifically regarding the elite level and club training sessions is because that's what Swim England, that's the jurisdiction for Swim England. So that's why it came into this presentation to the welfare officers. So Swim England doesn't have jurisdiction over recreational swimmers. So if there were any complaints about people being recorded in changing rooms among recreational swimmers,

then that wouldn't be one for Swim England, that would be a matter for police and the leisure operators. So actually these statistics that we've got probably don't tell the full picture because they only pertain to competition swimmers and those doing kind of club training sessions. Now the newspaper report said that the concern is that the rise is attributed to the introduction in many pools of mixed sex changing areas where people change in cubicles. But is there evidence for that? Well the Women's Rights Network published a report in November 2024. They called that report Leisure Centres Putting Women and Girls at Risk, and they stated that

following a Freedom of Information investigation that they had done, they found that a third of all local authorities required women and girls to use mixed sex changing rooms and showers when swimming, and that most women in the UK have no access to single sex swimming sessions. So they would say that the rise in these reported incidents is because of that. But of course it's difficult to draw that line between the two. It's important to note that under the Sport England guidance, which is followed by Swim England and stakeholders, in their guidance on changing provision, they say except in the very smallest facilities,

there should always be separate female changing, separate male changing, wheelchair accessible changing, all gender changing provision and appropriate locker and storage facilities. So they would say that that's their guidance, that they want all of those to be in existence. But we do know that there have been these rise in mixed sex changing villages as they're termed in recent years. And Swim England what have they said that governing body? Well they are concerned about this rise in the reported incidents they say that they've put in place mechanisms to make it easier for people to raise concerns and that potentially what we're seeing in

these statistics is a reflection of it being easier to report complaints but they of course condemn you know the filming of anyone in in this way and they say that they've strengthened procedures over a number of years to help protect their members from instances of inappropriate photos or video footage being taken during Swim England activity. So of course they don't condone this at all and they say that trusted safeguarding and welfare is a priority for them. I've also had a statement from Sport England saying these allegations are deeply disturbing and any illegal activity is clearly a matter for

the police. Changing facilities must meet the needs of everyone who uses them. So clearly concern from both those organisations today about this report about this significant increase in incidence of female swimmers having indecent images taken of them in swimming pool changing rooms. Laura, BBC Sports News correspondent Laura Scot there, thanks so much. I am now joined by Mary McLennan, British Marathon champion, a survivor of sexual abuse who's also the CEO of Kineska Advocacy and they support women and victims of abuse in sport. Welcome back to the program. First your reaction to what

you've heard Laura expanding on a little there? Yeah, I mean I think it's important to state from the get-go that this is obviously completely atrocious and we stand with all of the women that have suffered this horrific abuse and it's a complete violation of their privacy, of their bodily autonomy and it is also illegal. Your line has improved a little bit there, Mari, I'm going to stay with it. I do want to read one aspect coming in from Swim England. They said they strengthened their procedures over a number of years to protect members from instances of inappropriate photos or video footage being taken during Swim England activity as well as launching our Keep It In Your Locker campaign in early 2024 as part of our safeguarding policy wave power. The Keep

It In Your Locker campaign aims to raise awareness of zero tolerance approach to this issue and encourages our members to report any instances to us. Do you think something like that makes a difference? I do think it makes a difference. I think ultimately you know sport is a microcosm of society and this is a wider societal problem. We are seeing a rise in gender-based violence perpetrated by young men and boys and by and large but and also young people don't understand the impact of technology. They don't understand the long of technology, they don't understand the long-term damage that these types of actions can have.

And I think that there is a place for sport to create and foster integrity and good values by showing them hard work and creating healthy environments. But I think this is a wider societal issue and sport is a microcosm of that. So while sport can lead forwards in trying to educate and create spaces for people to speak up, this is a wider impact. You know, this same incident could have happened in a school walker room as well. It's interesting that you frame it in that way, Mari, because, I mean, do you think there is not other, I don't know, initiatives, for example, that could be brought in for swimmers? Or is it, I mean, what you seem to be saying is that society is really the problem, not the

swimming pool or the swimming lockers. Now, I'm wondering, are you still? I'm so sorry, Mari. I think I'm going to have to jump in there. The line has just deteriorated again. I'm so sorry. We will, of course, speak to you another time on this issue but the story which has been leaked at the moment is in The Times today. It's a leaked report from the governing body Swim England saying that there's been a significant increase in the number of female swimmers having unwanted and indecent images taken off them in changing rooms while competing in the elite level of the sport. Thanks also to Laura who joined us

in relation to that particular story. If you want to get in touch with the program 84844 is the way to do it. I have another guest who has just made her way into the studio. She won a BAFTA for her performance in Kenneth Branagh's film Belfast. She's known to many fans of time travel drama Outlander as Clare, but the Irish actress Catriona Balfe is joining me to talk about her latest role. This is playing a Russian spy in the new film The Amateur starring Rami Malek. Welcome to Women's Hour. Hi, Nula. Thank you for having me. Just like to say I didn't win the Bafta. I would love to have but I was nominated. Okay, we just elevated a bit. Maybe

we're sending it out to the universe. That it will happen next time. But I went to see you last night. I went to the premiere. I mean, I think that's the first premiere I've ever gone to. Oh, well, I'm very glad you made it. I hope you had fun. I had really did. It's such a glitzy, glamorous event.

I was wondering what must it be like to be in the eye of the storm? And for anybody who hadn't been, it hasn't been like I haven't before, apart from seeing it on TV. You know, you have these pens of journalists and fans and you walk down a white carpet, not a red carpet, last night. And people just roaring at you and looking for attention. What does that feel like? I mean, it's kind of fun.

I don't know. I mean, I, I, I don't think I've ever had a premiere there before. Oh, it was Leicester Square, just to let people know in London, kind of a warm evening. It was gorgeous. I mean, sunshine and blue skies and all of that. You know, it's kind of overwhelming, but it's also, I think, once in a while to be able to kind of get dressed up and celebrate, you know, the hard work of a lot of people, especially when our business is sort of struggling at the moment. It feels really good. So and also the crowd that was there last night, they were very vocal crowd.

I don't know. Do you watch the film or do you come out at the beginning? I know I sat in and I watched it. My sister was there with her husband and some friends. So we all sat together and it's fun. I mean, people were laughing, people were hollering. It's good. That's always a good sign when the film gets people engaged like that. So we'll come back to your role in The Amateur in just a moment.

But I was interested to see that you grew up in Monaghan in Ireland. Whenever I think of Monaghan, I think of the poet Patrick Cavanaugh. Oh, Stony Grey Soil. Oh, Stony Grey Soil. Oh, Stoney Gray Soil. The Bank of My Youth. Exactly. You clogged the feet of my boyhood. But it's a poem that often stated me from when I was a teenager. And because he talks about a very rural

upbringing in Monaghan and the land and agriculture and farming and all that, being part of his generation. You're obviously a lot younger. But I was wondering about, you know, a young girl in Monaghan thinking about modelling, acting, Hollywood. I mean, I always wanted to be an actor. I think I was that annoying, annoying child who would go around doing impressions from a very young age. But yeah, I'm not sure it was.

I don't know whether it was an escapism. You know, I grew up in Monaghan in the 80s and you know, in that time, the 80s and 90s, we were right by the border. It was quite depressed, I suppose, economically. There wasn't a whole pile going on, but I was involved in youth theatre there. We had a great little youth theatre in Ballinode, the village next to us, and then also in Monaghan, there's the garage theatre that used to do, we used to do plays there and pantos during Christmas.

But my dad, even though he was the local sergeant, he was part of a comedy troupe. I love which is mad. This is a sitcom, Katrina. It's a movie that needs to be made because there was my dad who was in it, who was the local sergeant, there was two local teachers, a shopkeeper and a farmer. And they used to write and perform their own comedy skits. So I think maybe some of that kind of bled into me. I think so, because there is obviously such a rich

history, tradition of storytelling, even night by night. And also I spent quite a bit of time in Leitren, which isn't that far from Monaghan. And, you know, I remember there was no TV in the 70s, late 70s. I think it came in in the early 80s. My auntie finally got one. But there was an awful respect and depth of theatre and performing and stories. Yeah, I mean, like growing up, I think that was one of the things, you know,

it was all amateur local productions, but every village, every sort of area had their own community centre and people would put on plays and stuff. You know, I saw my dad do, you know, different Brian Friel plays and all that kind of stuff. And I think that sort of really inspired me from a young age to want to be an actor. So you got the bug, but you went and you took a diversion to modelling for it. I did. Yes, I was I was studying theater in Dublin and somebody came and was like,

Would you like to go to Paris? And I was like, when? So I think three weeks later, I was on a bus from Charles de Gaulle Airport heading into the center of Paris with a little fax with my details. And I lived in Paris for about a year modeling there. But moved into acting then in your mid 30s, which obviously I think is very young. But for some, I think it's a little bit older to enter that career. I moved to L.A. when I was 30. Yeah, I decided that I sort of had done something that I wasn't really planning on doing for long enough.

And, you know, I do think I'm sort of very proud that I made that leap of faith, because I think a lot of people, even at the time, they were like, look, if you haven't sort of had your foot in the door at this point, you're probably it's probably too late, you know, especially L.A., where sort of the there's such a premium put on youth and all of that kind of stuff. But I, you know, I think sometimes you have a you have to have a blind faith in yourself and sort of make that make that leap. And yeah, it took me a little while.

I was in L.A. for probably three and a half, almost four years before, you know, I would get like a little nugget of a job here and nibbles that sort of just made it enough to keep going. And then and then I got outlander and I sort of left. I was like living in the sunshine in L.A., which was fabulous. And then got sent to Scotland, but for an amazing job and an amazing experience. I read that one of your drama teachers told you you're going to get the brunette rolls. Yes. What did you make of that?

At the time, I was like, what does she mean? And then she sort of explained it further. And I was sort of like, OK, I hope, you know, if there's somewhere that I fit in. I think at the time, I mean, Judith Weston, I have to give so much credit. Somebody asked me yesterday about mentors in my life life and she was a huge one for me. She was your drama teacher. She was a drama teacher in LA but she, I think so many times, especially when you're starting off,

you're sort of put in a group of everyone who's in the same position as you and everybody's sort of desperately trying to get to the same point and what she did was she took people in all sort of areas of the industry. So it was people who wanted to be directors or people who were already doing special effects, but wanted to sort of direct or had been writing. And so she would put everybody together. And it just took all of the stigma away or not the stigma necessarily. But you have people on pedestals, you know, for me as an actor, especially when you were starting out,

you know, you think of people who are directing or that kind of stuff and they they must know what they're doing and they've it all figured out. And you're just this little actor trying to get, you know, somebody to give you permission to do your job. And she would put everyone together and it was about the process. And it was about it's a community and everybody needs everybody else. It's such an interesting picture to paint, Katrina, because I think if we think of somebody starting off in Hollywood, cut

throat, the competition that could rip you to shreds. You could be a shell of your former self if you're not ruthless enough or strong enough or resilient enough to battle it out. Yeah, I mean, I never felt I never felt that. I like I've always thought because, you know, I also came from fashion where people are like, oh, my God, it must be so bitchy. And people are so and I've never felt that I've always felt a real camaraderie amongst, you know, people who were all struggling together, you know.

And I have some of my best girlfriends who we were all starting off in L.A. together as actors, and we were just so supportive of each other. And it was just kind of like you want to champion each other. But this is what Judith kind of fostered as well. It was like, how do we get everybody who's striving towards the same thing to understand each other's roles? And because as a director, you need to be able to understand what the actor's process is or as an actor, you need to understand each other's roles. And because as a director, you need to be able to understand what the actor's process is. Or as an actor, you need to understand where the writer is coming from, where the director is coming from.

And it just sort of created this beautiful community and an understanding of the business in a really great way. Yeah, kind of coming from a place of abundance, it sounds like. They must be so thrilled that you have the new film. I'm just thinking of your girlfriends that you talked about with the amateur, which stars Rami Malek. He was on stage with you last night as well as Lawrence Fishburne. Oh my god, amazing. That was quite fun, wasn't it, to see? Fantastic. I mean, both Rami and Lawrence are just, I mean, they're legends. It's great. So tell us about your role.

So I play Inquiline, who is kind of a quite a shady character, or we don't really know much about Inquiline. I would I would say she, but we're not even sure that it is she in the beginning. She kind of is this lone wolf. She doesn't. Rami is a data analyst that works for the CIA or his character. And Laurence Fishburne is also somebody who works for the CIA, but she works outside of these institutions and you're not quite sure what her backstory is, but she is somebody that Rami's character, Charlie Heller, meets along the way. They've had this relationship and exchange of information for many years,

but on his travels he meets her and they meet both having a huge understanding of loss and that's sort of how they connect and she helps him I guess, yes. I would say her mission is about seeking justice and I think he's more hell-bent on revenge at this point. There was one line that really struck me about, because you talk about them, you know, grief that can unite them, about the silence that is left behind when somebody dies. I thought that was very beautiful. Yeah, that whole speech is really gorgeous.

You know, and I think it's such a privilege, especially sometimes in these movies that are so action based. What I loved about this is that it takes these moments of real character and there was like real depth to what she's saying. And, you know, it's that thing of what happens when somebody leaves, you know, what are the things that you miss? And just door closing a person, if you're on steps, you know, all of these things, which, you know, I think most of us in our lives have experienced loss. And it is those little things that really kind of can just hit you like a train sometimes, you know, I hadn't thought about it in respect of sound before of somebody dying, not being around, whatever, leaving in whatever way it might be.

But I thought that was very evocative, just that thought. And that's one part of the character that you play. But some might say it's quite a departure from Ma and Kenneth Branagh's Belfast. Yeah, I think she is. And, you know, I think, you know, it's I feel such a privilege that we get to, you know, I get to do these jobs that can be very different. And you can just play with these different sides of yourself or explore different things. You know, I think previously a lot of the characters like Ma and Claire

both felt, you know, they're very sort of forward forward-footed women, I suppose, in a way. There you see them, you hear them, you know, they're very sort of forward-footed women, I suppose, in a way. You see them, you hear them, you know they're there. Whereas Inquiline, I think she is all about disappearing and just that energy of like, it's very inward and she is able to exist in shadows and, you know, live in a country and escape sort of the attention of some very serious people very easily. And it's about an energy. And that was really nice to explore because it was so different from things I've done before. And I was about to say, which which character are you more?

Oh, I'd like to think of a bit of both. You know, I think there's obviously, you know, there's my job requires sort of a lot of outward energy. Yes. A lot of time. That must be a little bit exhausting at times, even if fun. Yeah, it can be. I think especially if you have a long shoot after, you know, I've had the great privilege of taking some time off lately. We wrapped our final season of Outlander in October and I have a small child and I was

like, you know, now is a great time for me to just take some time off and really, and you don't realise, I think, if you've been on something for a very long time, how, you know, you're sort of on this train and it is this output of energy for a very long time and when you stop you kind of, you realise how depleted you are in a way. So I've been having a very nice time over the last few months, just spending time with my family and replenishing that, because I think that's so important. But I do think, you know, as an actor, it's also very good

to be able to disappear sometimes and be able to sort of, you know, just. Yeah, go under the radar. But you can. I can. That's great. You know, I'm asking listeners today before I let you go out the door, because you mentioned kids there as well. Chapel Rowan has talked about that she's never met any parents, anyone she knows who is happy that they're sleep deprived.

Hell, I think, was the word that she used. I've thrown it out to the listeners. Here's one. For example, parenthood is indeed intense, stressful, messy and pushes you to the absolute limits. I'm an artist and a mother of three and making work and raising a family within that chaos is madness. But also so unbelievably rewarding. I'm just curious for your thoughts on parenthood. I don't know whether you feel it's glorified or not given enough respect or hell as Chapel Rowan was forward. It's just a messy, beautiful hell. I'd have to say also my three year old, he is a big Chapel Rowan fan.

And that's one some of the music we play blaring on our way to his nursery some days. So a three year old. They're in the thick of it. Yeah. I mean, but it's brilliant. I mean, he will. He will. I mean, I think we escaped the terrible twos. And I always say you can never feel smug as a parent, because just when you think your child is brilliant,

they will do something that just shakes you to your core. But we are experiencing some very, very intense three year old tantrums at the moment. But he's the most amazing. So he skipped over the twos and held it to the three. He skipped over the twos and he saved it up for when he can really speak and really push those buttons. He's just verbalizing. It's the eloquence. It's the acting. It's his background. It's three-nature central. but I think it is the greatest thing.

And also, yeah, it's exhausting and it's messy. And, you know, but I, yeah, I wouldn't give it up for the world. So thank you very much for coming in. Catriona Balfe, who is starring in The Amateur, it's out in cinemas on the 11th of April. Thank you so much. Thank you for coming in. More of your messages. Let's see. I'm a 26 year old full-time nanny for three children, seven, four and two. While it certainly hasn't put me off and I'd like children my own one day it makes me appreciate and enjoy the freedoms which

come with being in a dink relationship at dual income no kids. I don't see myself having children of my own until my mid-30s for two reasons. Financial security and being a homeowner is important to me. Still lots of traveling that I'd like to do as well. It's a privilege to have choice, which previous generations did not. Often women who decide not to have children are unfairly coined as selfish. When in reality, it's completely selflessness act to acknowledge you don't wish to be a parent. That's from Millie 84844.

If you'd like to get in touch, you can of course get in touch with us through our website or email us as well. I want to turn instead now to figures that were released by the Department for Work and Pensions. It shows that 690 million pounds worth of child maintenance payments remain unpaid to single-parent families since the child maintenance service or the CMS began back in 2012. That is leaving thousands of children without the financial support that they're entitled to. Critics say the CMS is not doing enough to enforce parents to pay what they owe and campaigners argue that parents who don't pay are running rings around the system. The government insists it has strengthened enforcement measures.

Last month the cross-party House of Lords Public Service Committee launched an rings around the system. The government insists it has strengthened enforcement measures. Last month, the cross-party House of Lords Public Service Committee launched an inquiry into child maintenance. They will be examining the barriers to making payments through the CMS, through this service. They'll also investigate why many separated families do not have any form of arrangement at all and look at how CMS arrangements can be more effectively enforced. One of the most difficult areas of child maintenance arrangements are cases where there has been domestic abuse. Some perpetrators use child maintenance, or the lack of it, as a form of ongoing control. Joining me to talk about that aspect is Sam Smethers,

the Chief Executive of the charity Surviving Economic Abuse. Also joining us is a woman we are calling Claire, not her real name, who says her ex-partner used child maintenance as a form of coercive control. Thank you both for joining us. Let me begin with you Sam. In the broadest sense, not all parents who do not receive child maintenance are victims of economic abuse but it can leave them struggling financially. How do you think we should be talking about this issue to make sure that all affected parents get the right support? Well good morning I think what's really important to recognize is that the majority of these cases now the CMS is dealing with the

non-payment cases are economic abuse cases. In fact the non-payment of child maintenance is listed as a form of coercive control in the statutory guidance on coercive controlling behaviour so it's recognised as a tool of economic abuse and we're seeing it incredibly prevalent. There is 170,000 children currently not getting the money that they are owed by an absent parent, a non-paying parent and as we've said publicly in our comment, we'll say it again here, you know, those non-paying parents are running rings around the system.

The system is not designed to meet the needs of victims, survivors of economic abuse, when it should be primarily a trauma-informed system that puts their needs first and foremost. And the system needs radical change and reform. So what is it that you're asking for? You talk about radical change. Give me one example of how you'd see that. Well firstly we'd like them to use their enforcement powers, I mean it's all very

well saying they're getting more enforcement powers but just 425 cases were penalised in the most strict and draconian way last year, that's less than 1% of those non-paying parents. And they've had these enforcement powers in place for some time, but they're just not being used. We also don't think that the resourcing is there to really investigate the non-payment, and so the CMS itself is a bit constrained by what it can actually do to go after these parents and they're not working as they should be with agencies such as HMRC to really get the information that they need. And we want to see the staff better trained to understand, recognise and

respond to economic abuse. If we got that right, if we put those victim survivors first, we could really drive those numbers in the right direction. Let me read a little from the DWP, a spokesperson said, since the child maintenance service began in 2012, it has provided an important safety net for separated families and has collected or arranged £8.7 billion in payments for children. It has a range of strong enforcement powers that it uses often, including deducting cash from bank accounts, seizing goods, forcing the sale of property, escalating all the way

up to prosecution and imprisonment. A public consultation on changes, including on options to tackle non-compliance faster, has recently ended and were due to respond in due course. Well I think the wide I take issue there with is often. I don't think they are using their enforcement powers often. I think that's part of the problem. At the moment, abusive partners are stringing the system out, for example, by using the appeal system and playing it, and we know that that's being exploited.

They're not making the payments that they should be making. They're paying unreliably, or they're just not disclosing information that they should be disclosing. So they're fraudulently engaging with the system. So that all needs to change, and we really need the CMS to start acting on behalf of these children and victims survivors and actually recovering the money that they're owed. Because if we did that, we'd see a reduction in child poverty by 25% when those maintenance payments are paid.

And they are the figures that your organisation has put forward. Claire, as I am calling you, welcome to the programme. Thank you very much for speaking to us. How would you describe your experience with the CMS, the Child Maintenance Service? The only way I can explain it, and I know that I speak on behalf of a lot of parents with this, it's pure hell. The system is so bad and I feel it's bad for both sides as well, paying parents and receiving parents. But in the case of domestic violence cases, and one thing and another, they are enabling that abuse and in my opinion, making it much worse than it needs to be.

So in you left your ex partner, how did he then how was he able to then use the system against you? To start off with, he was making payments and he was okay. But he would, I mean, I'm going back quite a long time now, he would actually have to pay that money into the bank physically. But he soon started to play games where he'd wait till a minute to four on a Saturday afternoon to to pay it in to make sure that I didn't wasn't able to have any plans or do anything with the children at the weekend and and that sort of thing. We only lasted a couple of months before we went to the child maintenance service,

which was the child support agency back then and the control more or less started straight away and he would always if he was paying make sure that he stopped at the most vital times in the year when we needed it so that would be Christmas, six weeks holidays, Easter holidays, just for the control to know that we weren't able to go out and do anything. And under the CSA, they didn't use their powers. We did actually have four liability orders in the time with them. And then we changed the child maintenance service. And I think myself and a lot of parents thought this is great. They're going to have all these amazing powers and one thing another and, and everything else and they don't

use it. So in our case, payments stopped completely with in 2019. No reason from him whatsoever, just didn't want to pay anymore. And in a two year period, he didn't pay for two years, he was a high payer, his payments were in excess of £160 a week and because he knew the loopholes within the child maintenance service, whereas if you ask for a change of an income they can't do any enforcement action, he spent two years in a vicious circle of asking for changes, never sending the evidence in.

So then they closed the claim and do it again. And it was one big vicious circle. And he was able to play that game for two, four years. And the only reason payments actually started back up for me and the children were because that we went into lockdown with COVID and he had to go onto Universal Credit, so we started started getting seven pounds a week which is the basic amount. What does it mean? I mean I know you've described it as health but that fact how do you manage when those payments are not coming in for you and your children? It was horrific. I wasn't able to maintain my mortgage payments. I

thought I was doing a good job of hiding things from the kids. But we've had discussions about this recently, and I wasn't. So they noticed that there wasn't much food in the cupboards, we were relying on food banks, and things like that. And all the while having to deal with his partner putting things on social media about the amazing life that they've got while they're in Turkey and all these holidays, hot tubs on the back garden, that sort of thing. But there's also a sinister side to this, especially within domestic violence cases. Because for me, whenever the child maintenance would start putting any pressure on him,

or he received a letter or something like that, there would then be a hate campaign started on social media about me by his partner. And we've had everything from being talked about, having me disposed of, getting rid of, ridiculed. It did spill out and affect the children. My daughter was approached by a cousin in school who showed her all the social media and that sort of thing. But when you report that to the police and you report that to the child maintenance service, they won't

link it as economic abuse nor will they do anything. I was told to simply not look. If I didn't look, I wouldn't know what they were saying. Right, so that gives us a picture. Let me bring Sam back in here, because I think Claire was pointing out some of those aspects about how it's more than the money, of course, which is very important, but the tentacles that come from it as well. I mean, is there a way to close those loopholes, do you think? Well, I definitely think there is a way for the CMS to be more efficient and effective in the way that they collect maintenance payments from abusers. And yes, they can close those loopholes. And I think at the moment they haven't really prioritised it in terms of the way the system has been designed and the way that they're using their enforcement

powers to go after abusers in the way that we know they their enforcement powers to go after abusers and the way that we know they need to. And I think just to speak to Claire's point that this needs to be seen in the context of coercive controlling behaviour and that's exactly why we need the CMS to have a trauma-informed victim survivor-centred approach that genuinely understands what they're dealing with because at the moment we don't have confidence that they really do and that's why these cases are not being handled in the way that they should be. Now some cases, just before I let you go Sam, single parents do not have an arrangement in place or have decided not to, perhaps with fears of repercussions. I mean is there a

way around that really for the CMS when things are so heightened? Well I think if they had more confidence in the system, then we could have a different conversation. I'm not saying that every victim survivor would necessarily want the CMS involved, and we obviously have to be led by victim survivors themselves. That's really important. But at the moment, if you've got a system you can't really have faith in, then not engaging with it feels like a safer option. Whereas actually, if we could get a system in place that did prioritize victims, survivors, safety and

getting the right financial outcomes for them and for their children, then maybe we could get a better level playing field for victims, survivors and we could actually have better outcomes. Are you hopeful about the House of Lords Public Service Committee inquiry? Well, we're hopeful that the attention that's being placed on this by the House of Lords, by charities such as ours and Gingerbread and others that are all campaigning on this, that yes we will see meaningful reform and we certainly won't stop until we do. Thank you both for joining us, that's Sam Smithers from Surviving Economic Abuse alongside the woman we are calling Claire, thank you

for sharing your story. You can submit your evidence if you've been affected by this to the committee by midnight on the 23rd of April and in due course they expect to report on the findings in the summer and I will of course keep you up to date on the progress of that inquiry. Also if you have been affected by anything you've heard in today's discussion I want to let you know you can find support online via the BBC Action Line. I want to turn to wellness, if we want to call it that. What is the most outlandish health fad that you've come across? I feel there are

so many of them plastered across social media promising vitality, longevity, perhaps a cure to whatever ails you. But although that might be the modern-day iteration of wellness, it's nothing new. Women have wanted to understand their bodies and minds for centuries and prepared to go to great lengths for their health, even burning weasel testicles, for example. There is a new exhibition called Curious Cures. It's opened at Cambridge University Library and explores the medical treatments available to women in the medieval area. There's dozens of unique manuscripts, there's recipes, there's cures, there's guides, all to healthy living between the 14th and 15th century. Here to tell us a little bit more is Dr James Freeman, who is the exhibition's curator and also

medieval manuscript specialist. Welcome James. Morning. So tell me a little bit about what you have learned about women's involvement in medicine at that time. There's a thread running through the exhibition of women, not only as patients, but also patrons, readers, practitioners, and in some rare instances, authors too. What I hope visitors will see from the exhibition, as well the as you said the rather outlandish to modern eyes They are rather outlandish medical recipes are medieval people thinking and learning and writing They're trying to understand disease and its causes They're attempting to treat a bewildering array of illnesses and ailments and they're operating within

International networks of knowledge and study and and they're operating within international networks of knowledge and study and women are a part of that. Now one of the key pieces is Elizabeth of York's guide to healthy living, Henry VIII's mother. What has she got to say for herself? So this is a copy of a text that had been written a couple of centuries before Elizabeth's time in the mid 13th century. It had originally been composed for a female reader and patron Beatrice of Savoy by her physician, Aldo Brandino of Siena. And rather than curing illness,

it's concerned with the maintenance of one's health through control of external factors that medieval people described as the non-natural. So your humours, your four humours are your naturals and the non-naturals are things like food and drink, so balanced diet, sleep and wakefulness, you know, get a good night's rest, exercise and rest, control of your emotions, excretion and retention sometimes includes things like bathing and sexual intercourse. So fairly modern, really, I mean. Exactly, it rings very true. A lot of it is you know common sense sort of advice but this comes from the the medical authorities of the time that were being read or the medieval

people of Aldo Brandino's time had inherited from the ancient world through translations and reorganisations in the Middle East and which had come back into Europe for the most part through further Latin translations. So some of them might seem that they're very appropriate to use today but there are some other interesting cures. For example, could you tell us about the cure as they saw it for infertility that you found in one of the manuscripts? Yes, this involves your advised, well it's described as a true medicine and often proven.

And the reader is advised to gather three or four weasel testicles, half a handful of young mouse ear, which is a kind of plant, and burn them in an earthenware pot and then grind the ashes up with the juice of that plant and then make soft pills in the manner of a hazelnut kernel, which should then be placed so deeply in the woman's private parts that they touch the uterus, I'm quoting here, and there they are left for three days during which she should abstain from sex entirely. After those three days she should have intercourse with a man and she should conceive without delay. Now this sounds completely mad, but the theory behind it probably

is some sort of sympathetic medicine. This idea that an animal part might have curative properties for a corresponding part in the human body. Indeed, we see other cures for infertility that use the womb of a hare, for instance. And you have to put yourself in the shoes of medieval people. They lived in a world that was divinely created and divinely organized. Its plants, its animals, even its rocks and minerals are all here for our benefit and edification. So it's completely logical to their mind that this might work.

to their mind that this might work. There were women practicing medicine in medieval England, as I understand reading about the exhibition, but the move for medicine to be studied in university then disempowered women. How so? What essentially happens is that the medicine becomes incorporated within the universities established as a learned discipline and thereby written medicine, knowledge transmitted through writing in manuscripts, is seen as authoritative and thus the transmission of medical knowledge orally is inferior. Women's access to universities obviously is non-existent. These are male-only environments. The transmission of medical knowledge in Latin texts

further narrows their opportunity to access this information. And through the work of scholars like Monica Green, whose book details this history so wonderfully, women's opportunities to be authoritative and respected medical practitioners narrow. They are not banned from practicing medicine per se. And certainly we see in later manuscripts many references to women caring for one another, practicing medicine as midwives. And indeed, many of the simplest remedies use common or garden plants. They use preparatory equipment that you would find around the home for grinding, chopping,

boiling, cooking equipment basically. So the barriers to access in those contexts are low. So the reasonable inference is that men and women are attempting some of these remedies in their own homes. Obviously, all we have are the manuscripts. So the oral history we have to reach at sort of second or third hand. But some of the recipes are attributed to women. So it's, yeah, it's fascinating. Really fascinating. Thank you so much for coming on

and sharing a little bit of it. That's Dr. James Freeman, and you can see Curious Cures, Medicine in the Medieval World at Cambridge University Library until early December. Now, I want to turn back to the story I started with. We were hearing earlier the Grammy Award winning singer, Chappell Rhone, has been causing a stir with some comments that she made about motherhood, parenthood. She's 27 years old.

You probably know that she's a pop singer. And she said, all my friends who have kids are in hell. I actually don't know anyone who's happy or has children who has children at this age. I've literally not met anyone who's happy, anyone who is light in their eyes or who has slept. We do know fewer children been born in England and Wales and the birth rate is at its lowest on record. So are young women turning their backs on motherhood? Is Chapelrone perhaps vocalising something that many are thinking?

Is motherhood worth it? Is a question that has come out. Big rift in opinion I have to say about Chapelrone's comments. You don't have to go too far to find that. I want to bring in Anna Whitehouse, known as Mother Pukka and a campaigner and a mum of five. Hi Anna, welcome to the program. Hi, how are you doing? Very well, my goodness.

I have so many comments that have come in. I'll get to some of them in just a moment. But first, your thoughts on Chapel Rowan when you heard her comments. Yeah, I mean, to be fair, I think motherhood, parenthood in its essence is paradoxical, right? It is the absolute best of times and it's the absolute worst of times

and that can happen within five minutes. You know, you can go from an oxytocin high post birth to a postnatal low, you know, with your C-section scar hurting and you wonder who you are, where you are, where you're going, but at the very same time feeling utterly grounded and like this is the best thing you've humanly done. So I think the answer lies somewhere between what Chapel Rowan's saying and how mothers are reacting that yes it can be love and I would go as far sometimes not the child itself but you know the administration around the child can feel like hate sometimes you're angry. So yeah I think I think she's hit a nerve. She's definitely hit a nerve. I'm just seeing the amount of comments.

Shall we go through some of the manner? And I'll get your thoughts on them. I'm very interested in that word grounded used as well that you feel you got that when you have a child. I completely agree with Chappell, says Annie. I didn't have children because it looked like so much drudgery. I'm 58 and I'm really glad I never did. Horses, dogs, cats and freedom from stress.

What you don't have, you don't miss. I mean, I do want to give a moment as well. Dee got in touch. She says in today's discussion, please spare a thought for those who would like to have a child, but due to a medical condition cannot. Of course, Dee and anybody else who wants children but cannot have them for whatever reasons. Here's another from Laura.

She's in Scotland. She says, I'm 33 and my partner is 30. We've been together six years, so we definitely feel pressure from our families to get engaged, married, have a baby, etc. However, we wanted to prioritise buying a house, which we have now. We're both professionals and can't have children naturally. So we realise if we want to kids, it would require a large investment of our money and time, which we don't have right now.

It might seem selfish, but it just doesn't suit us. And actually it wouldn't be fair on the baby or child, Laura from Scotland. Sometimes I think it might be hard for Laura to be able to verbalize that in public without getting some pushback. Yeah, I agree. I think, look, I think having children is inordinately expensive, even if

you don't have any, you know, biological reasons for not being able to have a child or having to go through the IVF route, which my sister has gone through and she's 70,000 pounds down and still hasn't come to a point of having a child. So before you even get out the starting blocks, it's weighed with so much. But I think the big thing in here, we're talking a lot to mothers. We're not recognizing fathers within this. And we're not recognizing that actually it's not motherhood

that's this huge weight. Amongst all the kind of weight of it all, the gummy smiles, the joy, the uplift, the extraordinary biological, you know, junctures that we go through as women. But what we're not talking about here is that, you know, we're constantly being told women want it all, right? They want the job, they want the baby, they want the house. No, we don't want it all. But systemically, we are doing it all. And we are a generation of utterly burnt out mothers.

74,000 of us every year lose our jobs for simply having a baby. And we're tired and we're angry. That's nothing to do with the baby. Let me read some more comments that have come in. Here's Louise in Suffolk. Hi, I have twin boys who are eight years old. After a long IVF journey, my boys were very, very wanted. I never in a million years thought motherhood would be this hard. On a daily basis, I'm tested to my limit, holding space for big emotions and

the mental load is huge alongside paid work. I still feel like I'm in the trenches. It's very hard. I wish mothers shared the authentic reality rather than the myth and masks that seem to be presented eternally. Interesting. Here is another from Sam, another side of it. My four-year-old hatched a plant with her four-year-old friend to meet in the middle of the night and play superheroes. She left our house at two o'clock in the morning to go to her friend's house, crossed six roads, waited for him for 20 minutes, then came back when he didn't show. Parenting, the kift that keeps on giving.

I quite like some of the stories that are coming in. Another, my kids are now 11, 15 and 16 and through them it has been the most gorgeous pleasure to relive childhood through them. Watching all the classic kids movies again is one of the most tangible expressions of this. Another one, this is Fiona, parenting relentless is the best word I've ever heard used to describe it. It was from Stay at Home Dad in a BBC program some years ago. I've never forgotten it as he says he was never prepared for how relentless it is, say no more. Yeah I mean I think, do you know what, coming back to the first comment there, that my mother was from a generation, and I'm going to be really

explicit here talking about before having a child, the generation that was perhaps miscarrying in avocado-colored bathrooms and not talking about the reality of even getting out of the starting blocks. My mum lost two babies, I only found that out when I lost my first baby. And so I think there's a really important discussion here amongst all of this and what wasn't said. The unspoken pain. I was told in biology about put a condom on a banana,

and that's how you don't get pregnant. Wasn't told about anything else. And I think we need a bit of an education around the realities of parenthood, not just motherhood, because yes, you are set up for a fall otherwise. You know, if you think it's just Cath kids and nappy bags and sort of walking around in ethereal white caftans while being fed peeled grapes and the shares long, you're going to be woefully underprepared. But I do think that right now there is a justified recognition that there is a need for understanding

financially what it takes. The generation speaking up at the moment are not saying they don't necessarily want to do it, they're saying they can't afford to do it. That's what you're hearing. Here's another B in the Bonnet of Time. Let me see. Parenting is becoming more difficult because children are not being given enough boundaries. I was a teacher for 30 years and a mother.

The behaviour of many children today is appalling and parents are making a rod for their own backs by not saying no and not following through on the boundaries. They give in because it's easier but in the long term it causes problems. Hmm. Are the parents at fault, Anna? Wow, well I'm not going to speak on behalf of a generation of burnt house exhausted mothers doing their absolute best in a world that's told them to have it all. Like I said, they're doing it all. I do feel though that there is a healthy balance between informing and scaremongering.

I'm going to leave it at that maybe because I do, you know, ultimately it's not a recreational side hustle. It's not a little hobby having a baby. You know the next generation let's put it bluntly of children are employees for businesses, an economy that needs to evolve, so this isn't a nice to have and I think the answer sits somewhere between what Chappell-Roehn said and mothers are reacting to, it is the best of times, it is the worst of times, it's the highs and the lows. So welcome to the ride. Anna Whitehouse, thank you so much. The best advice I ever received when I was pregnant,

says Nerys, with my first child was from a parent who said having children was both the worst thing he had ever done and the best thing he had ever done. I think about that regularly and it proves true on an almost daily basis. Chapel Roan is not wrong but there is more to the story. Do join me tomorrow when I'll meet the first feminist yodeling choir person who set it up, that's Elena Kaiser. We'll talk about it all then. See you then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Join us again next time. It's a parent's nightmare. I said, oh it's a boy. And I was holding my hands out, ready to cuddle him, and they took him away. A switch at birth discovered with the gift of a home DNA test. The so-called brother that we grew up with wasn't a brother. And there's someone out there, if he's still alive, is.

A race against time. I don't want this woman to leave this earth not knowing what happened to her son. The Gift from Radio 4 with me, Jenny Clemon. Listen now on BBC Sounds.